Resource National Dex Ubers Viability Rankings [Update #6 at post 231!]

entrocefalo

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Welcome to the official National Dex Ubers Viability Rankings thread. In this thread, we as a community will be ranking every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in National Dex Ubers and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a tier list for the entire metagame, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense, defense, and supportive presences in the metagame within this thread. For example, Ho-Oh can be ranked in the A+ tier as a supportive presence, Xerneas can be ranked in the A+ tier as an offensive presence, and Arceus-Water can be ranked in the A+ tier as a defensive presence.

Finally, there will be a viability council of experienced players who will discuss and vote on the ranking of Pokemon. Depending on how the metagame is developing, we could update the thread every couple of weeks or every month+. The current viability council consists of the following users:

National Dex Ubers Ranking Tier List

Sample sets can be accessed by clicking on the Pokemon's name

S Rank [ordered by viability]

S+


1. :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon

S

1. :zygarde-complete: Zygarde-C
2. :eternatus: Eternatus

S-
1. :arceus-ground::earth-plate: Arceus-Ground
2. :yveltal: Yveltal
3. :ho-oh: Ho-Oh
4. :zacian-crowned: Zacian-C

A Rank [ordered by viability]

A+


1. :kyogre-primal: Primal Kyogre
2. :arceus-dark::dread-plate: Arceus-Dark
3. :marshadow: Marshadow

A
1. :arceus: Arceus
2. :necrozma-dusk-mane: Necrozma-DM
3. :necrozma-ultra: Necrozma-Ultra
4. :arceus-fairy::pixie-plate: Arceus-Fairy
5. :giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin

A-

1. :deoxys-attack: Deoxys-Attack
2. :arceus-water::splash-plate: Arceus-Water
3. :rayquaza: Rayquaza
4. :gothitelle: Gothitelle
5. :salamence-mega: Mega Salamence



B Rank [ordered alphabetically]

B+


:Alomomola: Alomomola
:calyrex-ice: Calyrex-I
:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-Speed
:ditto: Ditto
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:lunala: Lunala
:mewtwo-mega-y: Mega Mewtwo Y
:palkia-origin: Palkia-Origin

B
:arceus-ghost::spooky-plate: Arceus-Ghost
:Basculegion: Basculegion-M
:glimmora: Glimmora
:diancie-mega: Mega Diancie

B-

:chansey: Chansey
:chien-pao: Chien-Pao
:dondozo: Dondozo
:giratina: Giratina
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-Black
:shuckle: Shuckle
:zekrom: Zekrom


C Rank [ordered alphabetically]

C+


:arceus-grass::meadow-plate: Arceus-Grass
:blissey: Blissey
:chi-yu: Chi-Yu
:dialga: Dialga
:Flutter Mane: Flutter Mane
:garganacl: Garganacl
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:Landorus-Therian: Landorus-Therian
:smeargle: Smeargle
:tapu-lele: Tapu Lele



C

:arceus-dragon::draco-plate: Arceus-Dragon
:arceus-flying::sky-plate: Arceus-Flying
:arceus-rock::stone-plate: Arceus-Rock
:arceus-steel::iron-plate: Arceus-Steel
:kingambit: Kingambit
:latios-Mega: Mega Latios
:tyranitar-mega: Mega Tyranitar
:melmetal: Melmetal
:pheromosa: Pheromosa
:ursaluna-bloodmoon: Ursaluna Bloodmoon




C-

:cresselia: Cresselia
:gholdengo: Gholdengo
:hatterene: Hatterene
:iron treads: Iron Treads
:mewtwo-mega-x: Mega Mewtwo X



D Rank [ordered alphabetically]
Reminder: these Pokemon are unviable, but Ubers by tiering.

:annihilape: Annihilape
:arceus-bug::insect-plate: Arceus-Bug
:arceus-electric::zap-plate: Arceus-Electric
:arceus-fighting::fist-plate: Arceus-Fighting
:arceus-fire::flame-plate: Arceus-Fire
:arceus-ice::icicle-plate: Arceus-Ice
:arceus-poison::toxic-plate: Arceus-Poison
:arceus-psychic::mind-plate: Arceus-Psychic
:baxcalibur: Baxcalibur
:deoxys: Deoxys
:dialga-origin: Dialga-Origin
:dracovish: Dracovish
:dragapult: Dragapult
:espathra: Espathra
:darmanitan-galar: Galarian Darmanitan
:genesect: Genesect
:groudon: Groudon
:iron-bundle: Iron Bundle
:kyogre: Kyogre
:kyurem-white: Kyurem-White
:landorus: Landorus
:lugia: Lugia
:magearna: Magearna
:alakazam-mega: Mega Alakazam
:blastoise-mega: Mega Blastoise
:blaziken-mega: Mega Blaziken
:kangaskhan-mega: Mega Kangaskhan
:lucario-mega: Mega Lucario
:metagross-mega: Mega Metagross
:mewtwo: Mewtwo
:naganadel: Naganadel
:Ogerpon-Hearthflame: Ogerpon-Hearthflame
:necrozma-dawn-wings: Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
:palafin-hero: Palafin
:palkia: Palkia
:regieleki: Regieleki
:reshiram: Reshiram
:roaring-moon: Roaring Moon
:shaymin-sky: Shaymin-Sky
:solgaleo: Solgaleo
:spectrier: Spectrier
:Sneasler: Sneasler
:Terapagos: Terapagos
:urshifu: Urshifu
:walking-wake: Walking Wake
:zacian: Zacian
:zamazenta: Zamazenta
:zamazenta-crowned: Zamazenta-Crowned

Rules
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think Pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted. Expand on your opinion with actual analysis showing understanding of the metagame and perhaps bringing a unique perspective to the conversation.
  • Absolutely no flaming, personal attacks, or general idiocy will be tolerated.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them.
  • When nominating a Pokemon to move from one rank to another, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse.
  • Unrelated discussion and unproductive one liners that do not greatly contribute to discussion will be deleted.
  • Being Natdex AG or Natdex Ubers by tiering alone does not guarantee a ranking above the D rank.
  • If you are nominating a Pokemon to be ranked (meaning it was previously unranked), then you need to provide serious replays of it being used.
  • Failure to follow these rules after warning(s) will result in an infraction.
Blacklist (these Pokemon are unviable and should not be nominated at all. All posts regarding to them will be deleted. Repeated lacking to this rule will result in an infraction.):
  • Murkrow

Format credits go to Finchinator
 
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:Kyurem-Black: from C to B-
The placement of this mon is a complete slap in the face to anyone who's seriously used this. The fact this thing can tera is extremely amusing, boasting such calcs as 0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Kyurem-Black: 80-94 (20.4 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO that lets it loom over defensive Necrozma-Dusk-Mane lacking Knock Off or Earthquake. Thunder Wave and Toxic variants of NDM are complete setup fodder for Kyurem-B, and these variants of Necrozma-Dusk-Mane appear to be the most common overall.

No longer is its typing a hinderance to it, and no longer is Icicle Spear necessarily inconsistent.

It is at least as viable as Zekrom, which is also in B-. It offers more consistent wallbreaking, a slightly better speed tier, and a much, much more favorable Groundceus/Primal Groudon matchup while having genuine utility against other common threats such as Zygarde.

Life Orb is less consistent than Loaded Dice since it makes Kyurem-B reliant on Fusion Bolt more than Icicle Spear due to the latter's inconsistency, but with tera electric it gets absolutely marvelous calcs, including this one:
  • 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Tera Electric Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Ho-Oh: 416-491 (100.2 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    • Ho-Oh is not necessarily safe to stay in on Kyurem-B for any reason at all if Kyurem-B's item is not revealed and tera has not been used.
  • 252 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Tera Electric Kyurem-Black Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 400-476 (99 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
While the first calc is more important than the second, in both of these instances, if Kyurem-B ends up in front of them, they may have to switch or burn Terastal directly afterwards on the off chance that it does in fact exist. This combined with the Necrozma-Dusk-Mane interactions means that it genuinely does have setup opportunities if played well, yet also not necessarily needing setup to do work (just terastal). At +1, Fusion Bolt OHKOes basically everything that it hits super effectively in addition to Zacian-C and Xerneas, and Icicle Spear can clutch games by getting a lucky roll even once.

The Life Orb set is a large part of what makes the Loaded Dice set dangerous. They are for all intents and purposes completely interchangeable, except for the fact that the Life Orb set is much more Tera-reliant whereas the Loaded Dice basically does not need tera at all except for certain defensive matchups and Ho-Oh (unless it has Tera Grass, in which case it is absolute Icicle Spear food). It is very possible to bluff Life Orb with the loaded dice set, as the only way they'll really know is when Kyurem-B actually attacks. It is fully reasonable to run Substitute on the Life Orb set (absorb status attempts and punish switches), so the sets literally only vary by item.

Furthermore, Kyurem-B has sufficient bulk to justify the loaded dice set, as even though the Life Orb-exclusive OHKOes are lost, Kyurem-B can still defeat any one target 1v1 for the most part (given it isn't hit supereffectively) without necessarily even having to burn terastal (or in cases of Primal Groudon, if it hasn't tera'd), with the notable exception of Tera Fire Koraidon, which OHKOes Kyurem from full regardless of what it does.

Edit: Updated nom to B-
 
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Ropalme1914

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We just got a ladder and the VR is almost 2 months old now, so I think we could see some changes

:Deoxys-Attack: from C+ to A-
Getting the big one out of the way, this Pokémon is way too underranked right, and I don't think anyone would disagree with it - just maybe where it should go. Despite the obvious disadvantage of not being capable of taking any hit on the tier - including resisted ones - Deoxys got a lot better this time compared to previous incarnation such as USUM. Terastal is the biggest one for it: Tera Ghost Deoxys is a huge menace that not only can bypass old Pokémon that could take a hit before a lot easier, such as Necrozma-DM (who also tends to run phys def a lot more this gen) and Shadow Shield Lunala, but also makes it immune to Extreme Speed, one of the most common ways of revenge killing it (and even granting it a small defensive niche in a sense so that it can revenge kill Arceus on hyper offensive teams, funnily enough). 150 Speed is also just a blessing on this metagame, being the naturally fastest Pokémon in the tier and even outspeeding some boosted threats, like +1 Zygarde. It's simply an amazing tool to have right now.

:Arceus-Ground: (Ground) :Koraidon: from S- to S, nuke S-
Yes, Necrozma-DM is still great, but we don't need a rank separation for those just as metadefining Pokémon. Groundceus feels like it always has a set that can really screw most teams between supportives sets with Defog or Toxic or offensive ones that can run physical or special builds - and as always, Ground is just a fantastic type in a meta filled with Primal Groudon, Zacian-C, Necrozma-DM, etc. - even the raw BoltBeam coverage can be hard for offensive teams to deal with regardless if they're on a defensive set. Koraidon is the Scarfer of the tier, and to see how relevant it is, just look at the EV investments from this generation: Timid Geomancy Xerneas and other +2 Speed boosters are sacrificing a lot of bulk and sometimes even power just to not get left behind. While not as common as Scarf, SD + Flame Charge are also extremely threatening for both offensive and defensive and pretty much guarantee at least one KO per match. You just can't build a team without putting Koraidon as a priority to check, and while it is probably the #4 of the tier, it also should join the others on S.

:Arceus-Water: (Water) from A+ to A
While not a bad forme, Arceus-Water has lost space as a supportive Arceus to Fairy and Ground. While Ground has been mostly explained already on the previous nom, Fairy now brings a more important than ever Fighting resist and Dragon immunity with the rise of Koraidon, Dragon Tail Zygarde, and the continued usage of Marshadow and other Draco Meteor sources of the tier. Tera also flips Fairy matchups to be a lot more favorable - Ground, in particular, makes it so your supportive Arceus now won't be so vulnerable to Steel-types like offensive Necrozma-DM and Zacian-C. Water just doesn't have resists as useful as the top 2 Arceus outside of being capable of switching into both Primals - and even in those cases, they have means of breaking it such as Swords Dance or Tera Grass. It should feel more at home with a lower rank.

:Melmetal: from D to C-
While Melmetal isn't particularly good, it still is threatening enough to separate itself from the totally irrelevant D ranks. Tera Steel Banded Double Iron Bash is capable of 2HKOing even incredibly sturdy resists like Necrozma-DM on top of a 51% chance to flinch the opponent, with pretty much no neutral target ever surviving it. Despite its myriad of problems, including wanting Trick Room support, Melmetal has the potential to blow holes on teams if given the opportunity with some niche defensive applications here and there against physical attackers like Ekiller. It for sure is more deserving of C- than Pokémon like Necrozma-DW.

:Palkia-Origin: Palkia-O from B- to B
While competition from Eternatus hurts its case, Palkia-Origin still provides unique qualities as a wallbreaker to make itself worthy. Water STAB offers it a great neutral coverage option and lets it handle Ho-Oh a lot easier compared to the risky nature of Meteor Beam's single use of Power Herb, while its type provides a better switch-in to Kyogre or even a Tera Fire Flare Blitz from Koraidon (which can actually 2HKO offensive Eternatus even on Choice Scarf sets). The reduced importance of Thunder this generation can also give it room to slot Substitute sometimes and ease off predictions, as Palkia can threaten a 2HKO or OHKO on almost the entire tier besides Lunala while still outspeeding the base 100s and below.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Unranked ---> B-
I'm surprised to not see this thing on here tbh. With the heavy focus on Pokemon such as Zacian, Primal Groudon, and Mega Mence I feel like a very defensive Pokemon like Dondozo would at the very least be on people's radars. It can solidly be a great check to many of the set up sweepers we have currently and it puts a focus on the opponent that prevents them from being able to sweep. The pressense of Dondozo on your team dissuades set up as a whole giving you some extra breathing room to not be completely obliterated. This mon isn't without it's faults obviously like it's pretty 1 dimensional game plan but it should at least have some warrant inside of the tier because of that. The set below is what I was running, Curse allows you to flip even more physical match ups against and you really need Rest to be able to accomplish any sort of goal. I'm not sure if you want to run max SpDef since it only helps you turn some 2HKOs into 3HKOs which is usually only good if your opponent let's you set up before hand. More Phys Def investment probably makes your good matchups even better/more reliable and your choice of coverage move is up to you. Liquidation and Earthquake both have their faults (against 2 of the mons you arguably want to check the most) so it's up to Rock Slide or Body Slam to be your general coverage move. But just seeing on how Dozo matches up into a lot of the tiers scariest threats it really deserves a spot. Tera type is also ???

Dondozo @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rock Slide / Liquidation / Body Slam / Earthquake
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
 
:grimmsnarl: C+ -> B
Access to Prankster Parting Shot is very good for this, even if it means getting completely shut down by any Dark type, and it lets it fit much more easily on teams now that it can be used as a momentum grabber. Screens moreover are incredibly useful in a metagame with such potent revenge killers, and Parting Shot basically guarentees that the opponent will be weakened in some form for whatever replaces Grimmsnarl.

:chien-pao: D -> C-
This thing shouldn't be D when it isn't actually outclassed by anything in the metagame and it can do serious work. The speed tier, its STAB coverage, and access to priority are all very solid.

It can revenge kill Close Combat koraidon pretty reliably, is a functional Yveltal check, and can break through many common physical walls with just its STABs.

:necrozma-dawn-wings: C- -> D
This has no niche in the metagame. Literally none. Any set it could run, something else can do better, and additionally giving up Necrozma-DM even just for Ultra base forme is horrid. I was originally optimistic it could run Tera-related sets, but it doesn't get Tera Blast and it doesn't get anything coming even close to being coverage. Just use Lunala instead.

:Deoxys-Attack: from C+ to A-
Getting the big one out of the way, this Pokémon is way too underranked right, and I don't think anyone would disagree with it - just maybe where it should go. Despite the obvious disadvantage of not being capable of taking any hit on the tier - including resisted ones - Deoxys got a lot better this time compared to previous incarnation such as USUM. Terastal is the biggest one for it: Tera Ghost Deoxys is a huge menace that not only can bypass old Pokémon that could take a hit before a lot easier, such as Necrozma-DM (who also tends to run phys def a lot more this gen) and Shadow Shield Lunala, but also makes it immune to Extreme Speed, one of the most common ways of revenge killing it (and even granting it a small defensive niche in a sense so that it can revenge kill Arceus on hyper offensive teams, funnily enough). 150 Speed is also just a blessing on this metagame, being the naturally fastest Pokémon in the tier and even outspeeding some boosted threats, like +1 Zygarde. It's simply an amazing tool to have right now.
While I agree with a Deoxys-A rise, raising it to A- is an overreaction. As I see it, Deoxys-A is very much a "paper" Pokemon. It's definitely very powerful on on paper, but in practice it is wildly inconsistent.
  • It remains complete deadweight against Marshadow (unless Tera Normal lmao).
  • Anything that takes a hit from it will OHKO back without exception. It's also almost impossible to get in without sacks, pivots, or double switches, and on top of that it's a disappointing lead given NDM anti-leads it and it doesn't beat common HO leads in any way.
  • 150 Spe is great until you realize that most setup sweepers specifically attempt to clear that anyway, and Choice Scarf Koraidon outspeeds you and revenge kills with any move.
  • Its reliance on Tera to attempt to actually fit on teams means that the rest of the team needs to be structured to not be reliant on Tera against the threats (and teammates of them) that would otherwise invalidate it. If the opposing team has a Rayquaza or Extreme Speed Arceus, if Deoxys-A does not Tera Ghost it's forced out by them, which can give them free setup opportunities.
  • Once Deoxys-A uses Psycho Boost it's forced out by a huge portion of the meta, including virtually all setup sweepers in the tier.
  • Deoxys-A generally struggles to break through NDM and Ho-Oh, doubly so if it cannot Terastal, which can prevent it from doing work in many games.
  • Deoxys-A has a high skill floor; every single turn it's on the field requires some sort of prediction to occur, and messing it up even once will very often result in it doing almost no work that game. You better have a damage calculator open at all times with this thing. Even one missed calc will end Deoxys-A.
I would think C+ -> B+ is fair for Deoxys-A. It really is a menace, and Tera Ghost and Tera Normal both look promising, but it's just got so many flaws dragging it down.
:Arceus-Ground: (Ground) :Koraidon: from S- to S, nuke S-
I support this. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane is indeed incredibly solid, but I find it hard to argue it's better enough than these two that it's worth separating them.

:Melmetal: from D to C-
Agree with this. Actually just got swept by Tera Steel Melmetal on ladder. Trick Room is a gimmick but Tera Steel Melmetal is so powerful that it can't just be ignored. There's basically nothing at all that avoids a 2HKO from this thing, and Double Iron Bash will probably just Flinch you anyway.

In fact I believe it should be D to C.

:Arceus-Water: (Water) from A+ to A
Agree. Also the Recover nerf really sucks for a Pokemon that's so passive against some of the Pokemon it's supposed to check. It is not uncommon to see Arceus-Water run out of PP, at which point it's basically done for.

Edit: Updated nom for Melmetal to be C rather than C-
 
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Eledyr

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Following a new VR vote, our Viability Rankings got updated! Here is the slate. If you have questions about the changes they can go here or the SQSA thread and if you see any mistakes on the sheet / here let me or Guard know.

Also, as you can see, Ropalme1914 has joined the VR council!

Rises:

:arceus: Arceus-Ground: S- ---> S
:koraidon: Koraidon: S- ---> S
:eternatus: Eternatus: A+ ---> S-
:salamence-mega: Mega-Salamence: A ---> A+
:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin: A- ---> A
:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-Speed: B+ ---> A-
:mewtwo-mega-y: Mega Mewtwo Y: B+ ---> A-
:deoxys-attack: Deoxys-Attack: C+ ---> B+
:rayquaza: Rayquaza: B ---> B+
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl : C+ ---> B
:palkia-origin: Palkia-Origin: B- ---> B
:pheromosa: Pheromosa: B- ---> B
:smeargle: Smeargle: B- ---> B
:zekrom: Zekrom: B- ---> B
:kyurem-black: Kyurem-Black: C ---> C+
:excadrill: Excadrill: C- ---> C
:chien-pao: Chien-Pao: D ---> C-
:darmanitan-galar: Galarian Darmanitan: D ---> C-
:kangaskhan-mega: Mega Kangaskhan: D ---> C-
:melmetal: Melmetal: D ---> C-

Drops:

:arceus-water: Arceus-Water: A+ ---> A
:necrozma-ultra: Necrozma-Ultra: A ---> A-
:arceus-ghost: Arceus-Ghost: A- ---> B+
:lunala: Lunala: A- ---> B+
:marshadow: Marshadow: A- ---> B+
:flutter-mane: Flutter Mane: B+ ---> B
:arceus-flying: Arceus-Flying: B ---> B-
:dialga: Dialga: B ---> B-
:ditto: Ditto: B ---> B-
:giratina: Giratina: B ---> B-
:magearna: Magearna: B ---> B-
:blissey: Blissey: B- ---> C+
:slowbro-mega: Mega Slowbro: B ---> C+
:mewtwo: Mewtwo: B- ---> C+
:mewtwo-mega-x: Mega Mewtwo X: C+ ---> C
:urshifu: Urshifu: B- ---> C
:kyurem-white: Kyurem-White: C ---> C-
:tyranitar: Tyranitar: C ---> C-
:iron-bundle: Iron Bundle: C+ ---> D
:kyogre: Kyogre: C+ ---> D
:blastoise-mega: Mega Blastoise: C ---> D
:necrozma-dawn-wings: Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: C- ---> D
:palkia: Palkia: C ---> D
:zacian: Zacian: C+ ---> D
:zamazenta-crowned: Zamazenta-Crowned: C- ---> D
:glimmora: Glimmora: B- ---> UR
:skeledirge: Skeledirge: B- ---> UR
:tapu-lele: Tapu Lele: C- ---> UR
 
xerneas.gif

Xerneas: A+ -> S-

Xerneas feels like it got such a major buff from earlier generations, in the form of terastallization. Geomancy sets were already incredibly difficult to beat because of how hard they hit. Now, Xerneas has the ability to hit hard AND not die. Tera electric allows it to eat steel-type hits coming from common checks such as Necrozma-DM. It also cannot be revenge killed by scarf Koraidon, as when running a Timid nature, it hits 652 speed after geomancy, outrunning and OHKOing it with Moonblast.

Xerneas can also take advantage of when your opponent has already burned their tera, and walls such as Ho-Oh can't mindgame it on whether to use Moonblast or Thunder/Thunderbolt, then take a crippling Thunder Wave. Xerneas is extremely devastating when supported correctly, and can punch huge holes in teams, enabling its allies to finish the job, or roll over entire teams itself.
 
:sv/calyrex-ice: B to -A
In trick room there are no switch ins besides necrozma dusk phys Def and only phys def and a lot of mons straight up die from this ice demon

- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 414-488 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fairy: 440-518 (99 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 340-402 (99.7 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 452-534 (115 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 209-247 (52.5 - 62%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

On top of that it gets moxie which is insane so at +1 everything is a 1HKO doesnt matter phy def besides zamazenta or necrozma-dusk. This is not to mention calyrex bulk sure primal groudon and threatened it but everything else cant really 1HKO with max hp like the amount of shit you can get away with when rocks arent up is crazy

- 252+ Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 290-344 (71.7 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 361-426 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
- 252 Atk Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +1 252+ SpA Earth Plate Tera Ground Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 324-382 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +1 252 SpA Eternatus Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 338-398 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So ye in terms of trick room being up calyrex is the goat he out speeds everything in the tier besides ferrothorn and all he can do is knock off or die. I do have to mention when trick room does end koraidon does come in for free but you can build for that like arceus-water or fairy trick room healing wish support shit it sounds like ass but hey koraidon kind of a threat. Also when you do get the horse low to hazards or hitting hit you can just healing wish and get all of that health and status back, Also lunar dance helps with the pp issue but 8 lance is enough to get a few kills for the rest of the team to clean up. https://pokepast.es/b4b141606e283b26 this is the team that I love using
 
yveltal.gif

Yveltal: A -> S-
I think Yveltal should be in higher because this pokemon is so really good. Yveltal has a great bulk, so it can survive with Koraidon, Primal Groudon, Arceus. Dark Type help Yveltal against Mew2, Necrozma, Giratina, Arceus Dark, Marshadow and block Parting Shot Grimsnarl. If Yveltal use Tera Dark with item such as Life Orb, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Black Glasses, it will become a giant NUKE, can OHKO Zygarde Dragon Dance, Groudon Offensive, Ho-Oh, 2HKO Groudon Deffensive Stealth Rock, Xerneas Geomancy:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dark Aura Tera Dark Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 364-430 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dark Aura Tera Dark Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 382-450 (100.2 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Tera Dark Yveltal Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 378-446 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dark Aura Tera Dark Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 274-324 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Tera Dark Yveltal Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 207-244 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oblivion Wing is best move to help Offensive Yveltal become bulkier. With great bulk, Yveltal can use Defog to clear hazard, Taunt to shut out Pokemon set up sweeper, hazard and staller. Yveltal can use Tera Steel or Poilson to tank Zacian, Xerneas, and Koraidon. It really can use Roost to heal. Foul Play is best stab move to against Necrozma DM- Ultra, M.Salamnce Dragon Dance, Arceus Bulky Extreme Speed. Heavy Duty Boost is the best item for this set or you can use Leftovers. This is the set I have using in Ladder top 50:

Yveltal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dark Aura
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Sucker Punch
- Oblivion Wing
- U-turn
 
View attachment 493037
Yveltal: A -> S-
I think Yveltal should be in higher because this pokemon is so really good. Yveltal has a great bulk, so it can survive with Koraidon, Primal Groudon, Arceus. Dark Type help Yveltal against Mew2, Necrozma, Giratina, Arceus Dark, Marshadow and block Parting Shot Grimsnarl. If Yveltal use Tera Dark with item such as Life Orb, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Black Glasses, it will become a giant NUKE, can OHKO Zygarde Dragon Dance, Groudon Offensive, Ho-Oh, 2HKO Groudon Deffensive Stealth Rock, Xerneas Geomancy:
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dark Aura Tera Dark Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 364-430 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dark Aura Tera Dark Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 382-450 (100.2 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Tera Dark Yveltal Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 378-446 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
- 252 SpA Choice Specs Dark Aura Tera Dark Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 274-324 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Dark Aura Tera Dark Yveltal Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 207-244 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oblivion Wing is best move to help Offensive Yveltal become bulkier. With great bulk, Yveltal can use Defog to clear hazard, Taunt to shut out Pokemon set up sweeper, hazard and staller. Yveltal can use Tera Steel or Poilson to tank Zacian, Xerneas, and Koraidon. It really can use Roost to heal. Foul Play is best stab move to against Necrozma DM- Ultra, M.Salamnce Dragon Dance, Arceus Bulky Extreme Speed. Heavy Duty Boost is the best item for this set or you can use Leftovers. This is the set I have using in Ladder top 50:

Yveltal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Dark Aura
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Sucker Punch
- Oblivion Wing
- U-turn
Do you have any replays from Tournament to demo Yveltal's effectiveness? Going from bottom of A to S- is an enormous jump and I don't think the tier ladders are completely ignorant of Yveltal's current viability
 
Do you have any replays from Tournament to demo Yveltal's effectiveness? Going from bottom of A to S- is an enormous jump and I don't think the tier ladders are completely ignorant of Yveltal's current viability
S- maybe too high, but i think Eternatus is in S- is too high. I though Tournament Nadex Uber has not happened yet, so activating in high ladder is really good.
:sv/calyrex-ice: B to -A
In trick room there are no switch ins besides necrozma dusk phys Def and only phys def and a lot of mons straight up die from this ice demon

- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 414-488 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fairy: 440-518 (99 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 340-402 (99.7 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 452-534 (115 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 209-247 (52.5 - 62%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

On top of that it gets moxie which is insane so at +1 everything is a 1HKO doesnt matter phy def besides zamazenta or necrozma-dusk. This is not to mention calyrex bulk sure primal groudon and threatened it but everything else cant really 1HKO with max hp like the amount of shit you can get away with when rocks arent up is crazy

- 252+ Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 290-344 (71.7 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 361-426 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
- 252 Atk Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +1 252+ SpA Earth Plate Tera Ground Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 324-382 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +1 252 SpA Eternatus Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 338-398 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So ye in terms of trick room being up calyrex is the goat he out speeds everything in the tier besides ferrothorn and all he can do is knock off or die. I do have to mention when trick room does end koraidon does come in for free but you can build for that like arceus-water or fairy trick room healing wish support shit it sounds like ass but hey koraidon kind of a threat. Also when you do get the horse low to hazards or hitting hit you can just healing wish and get all of that health and status back, Also lunar dance helps with the pp issue but 8 lance is enough to get a few kills for the rest of the team to clean up. https://pokepast.es/b4b141606e283b26 this is the team that I love using
Oh, i jusst have met you, bro. My Yveltal can 2HKO Porygon with out Tera
 

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S- maybe too high, but i think Eternatus is in S- is too high. I though Tournament Nadex Uber has not happened yet, so activating in high ladder is really good.

Oh, i jusst have met you, bro. My Yveltal can 2HKO Porygon with out Tera
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...tournament-won-by-eledyr.3713045/post-9488981
There was a nat dex tour that did happen, granted it happened around a month ago and the ladder has dropped in that time leading for room for development. That said I'm not really sold on moving Yveltal up on those arguments alone. Being a wallbreaker is nice but especially in ubers is not a role unique to Yveltal alone and while I agree it is super solid it still has it's own flaws. And you mention how it can run all of these sets but that comes at the expense of your tera or your item which you are leaning on for the crutch of your argument it feels like. I'm not entirely sure how practical Adamant Choice Band Yveltal is and committing a tera type to get that damage is nice but should be coming at some risk. Even just looking at some usage stats from that tournament Koraidon is at 60% which will definitely threaten it if it tera or force you into a 50/50 situation on picking the right move and Zacian & Xerneas playrates at 20 and 40 respectively which should be decent answers to those Yveltal variants as well. I feel like you could make these same arguments with stuff like Palkia and Xerneas about how powerful tera stab really is but it's such a huge commitment. I think Yveltal is super flexible but as opposed to some of the other mons in S- rank, that you might have to dedicate full team slots to beating. I also think with the pressense of Koraidon, it makes Fairies really appealing in this metagame which keep it in check from dominating offensively and even some of the defensive Pokemon really like Tera fairy like POgre. Wallbreaker versions get chipped down by SR and without LO or even going to the drastic end of running Specs, you won't naturally be able to set up Yveltal for a free kill every time which hurts it. It should probably stay in A tier, it's pretty indicative of how flexible it is while still being ranked in accordance to the weaknesses it does have.
 
:sv/calyrex-ice: B to -A
In trick room there are no switch ins besides necrozma dusk phys Def and only phys def and a lot of mons straight up die from this ice demon

- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 414-488 (99.7 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Fairy: 440-518 (99 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 340-402 (99.7 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 452-534 (115 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 209-247 (52.5 - 62%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

On top of that it gets moxie which is insane so at +1 everything is a 1HKO doesnt matter phy def besides zamazenta or necrozma-dusk. This is not to mention calyrex bulk sure primal groudon and threatened it but everything else cant really 1HKO with max hp like the amount of shit you can get away with when rocks arent up is crazy

- 252+ Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 294-348 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 290-344 (71.7 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +2 252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 361-426 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
- 252 Atk Rayquaza V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +1 252+ SpA Earth Plate Tera Ground Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 324-382 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- +1 252 SpA Eternatus Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tera Ice Calyrex-Ice: 338-398 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So ye in terms of trick room being up calyrex is the goat he out speeds everything in the tier besides ferrothorn and all he can do is knock off or die. I do have to mention when trick room does end koraidon does come in for free but you can build for that like arceus-water or fairy trick room healing wish support shit it sounds like ass but hey koraidon kind of a threat. Also when you do get the horse low to hazards or hitting hit you can just healing wish and get all of that health and status back, Also lunar dance helps with the pp issue but 8 lance is enough to get a few kills for the rest of the team to clean up. https://pokepast.es/b4b141606e283b26 this is the team that I love using
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...tournament-won-by-eledyr.3713045/post-9488981
There was a nat dex tour that did happen, granted it happened around a month ago and the ladder has dropped in that time leading for room for development. That said I'm not really sold on moving Yveltal up on those arguments alone. Being a wallbreaker is nice but especially in ubers is not a role unique to Yveltal alone and while I agree it is super solid it still has it's own flaws. And you mention how it can run all of these sets but that comes at the expense of your tera or your item which you are leaning on for the crutch of your argument it feels like. I'm not entirely sure how practical Adamant Choice Band Yveltal is and committing a tera type to get that damage is nice but should be coming at some risk. Even just looking at some usage stats from that tournament Koraidon is at 60% which will definitely threaten it if it tera or force you into a 50/50 situation on picking the right move and Zacian & Xerneas playrates at 20 and 40 respectively which should be decent answers to those Yveltal variants as well. I feel like you could make these same arguments with stuff like Palkia and Xerneas about how powerful tera stab really is but it's such a huge commitment. I think Yveltal is super flexible but as opposed to some of the other mons in S- rank, that you might have to dedicate full team slots to beating. I also think with the pressense of Koraidon, it makes Fairies really appealing in this metagame which keep it in check from dominating offensively and even some of the defensive Pokemon really like Tera fairy like POgre. Wallbreaker versions get chipped down by SR and without LO or even going to the drastic end of running Specs, you won't naturally be able to set up Yveltal for a free kill every time which hurts it. It should probably stay in A tier, it's pretty indicative of how flexible it is while still being ranked in accordance to the weaknesses it does have.
yep, i think S- may be too high :)
 
:garganacl:: nomming garganacl to C- (at least):

Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD (could alternatively go for more def to stomach stuff like don's pblades after tera better)
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Recover
- Salt Cure

alr posted about it on the discussion thread, but basically here it can kinda pull off the same shenanigans that it does in OU: it's hard to kill after a boost, salt cure is annoying, doesn't care about the main wall-annoying method in toxic, feasts on the most annoying mon ever in zygarde... overall it's a mon that has a decent niche in the tier despite being tera-reliant, so i feel like it's worthy of some rank.

matches:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1805998283 garga kinda memeing on trick room idk

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1805413598 not anything serious but funny salt

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1803901754 garga's salt cure is the key to victory here, being a hella annoying move

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1802619584 not the best replay ever but shows garga's capabilities quite well

these aren't the most skilled players out there and i'm aware but hopefully it's enough to show that the salt man is a legit thing in here too.
 
:garganacl:: nomming garganacl to C- (at least):

Garganacl @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD (could alternatively go for more def to stomach stuff like don's pblades after tera better)
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Recover
- Salt Cure

alr posted about it on the discussion thread, but basically here it can kinda pull off the same shenanigans that it does in OU: it's hard to kill after a boost, salt cure is annoying, doesn't care about the main wall-annoying method in toxic, feasts on the most annoying mon ever in zygarde... overall it's a mon that has a decent niche in the tier despite being tera-reliant, so i feel like it's worthy of some rank.

matches:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1805998283 garga kinda memeing on trick room idk

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1805413598 not anything serious but funny salt

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1803901754 garga's salt cure is the key to victory here, being a hella annoying move

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1802619584 not the best replay ever but shows garga's capabilities quite well

these aren't the most skilled players out there and i'm aware but hopefully it's enough to show that the salt man is a legit thing in here too.
i think Dondozo will be better because Unaware is a crazy abilty in Uber, the tiers with many set up sweeper.
 
i think Dondozo will be better because Unaware is a crazy abilty in Uber, the tiers with many set up sweeper.
the thing is this doesn't really do the same as dozo, which can't just salt cure something like kyogre and comfortably be able to stall it out by spamming recover on even modest thunder. salt cure really is an invaluable move which annoys the hell out of everything, and dozo is completely bullied by taunt/toxic arcs while bar from something like fairyceus salt cure+body press can force them to spam recovery and get pp stalled. it's status-immune too, totally memeing on ho-oh and zygarde.
 
i think Dondozo will be better because Unaware is a crazy abilty in Uber, the tiers with many set up sweeper.
Nah donbozo sounds kind of shit. Water is a really good typing sure but even with the pure bulk everything can still 2hko or 3hko no reliable recovery u resting and the person getting a free switch isn't a very good thing especially in ubers. I don't want to rant on how the fish isn't good just use the bigger fish or water arceus for a water or a Tera mon
 
the thing is this doesn't really do the same as dozo, which can't just salt cure something like kyogre and comfortably be able to stall it out by spamming recover on even modest thunder. salt cure really is an invaluable move which annoys the hell out of everything, and dozo is completely bullied by taunt/toxic arcs while bar from something like fairyceus salt cure+body press can force them to spam recovery and get pp stalled. it's status-immune too, totally memeing on ho-oh and zygarde.
This meta is HO, Toxic Hooh and Glare Zygarde is not appearance more than Zacian, Koraidon, Groudon, Arceus Sword Dance, Rayquaza, Zekrom, Kyurem Black, Zygarde Dragon Dance and Zygarde Coil, Subsitute every whare so Salt Cure is not very good. I don't think give Gar to vs Kyorge Primal is a good idea, you can be 2HKO and can't use Recover. But Garganacl and Dodonzo are very strong in this tiers.
 

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