Resource National Dex Ubers Viability Rankings [Update #6 at post 231!]

Personal VR
S+ :groudon-primal:

S :necrozma-dusk-mane: :yveltal:

S- :koraidon: :xerneas:

A+ :ho-oh: :eternatus: :arceus:(Fairy) :arceus:(Dark) :zacian-crowned: :arceus:(Ground) :arceus:(Normal)

A :giratina-origin::zygarde-complete: :salamence-mega: :arceus:(Water) :palkia-origin: :kyogre-primal:

A- :ditto::deoxys-attack::mewtwo-mega-y: :flutter-mane: :ferrothorn: :Smeargle:

B+ :marshadow::arceus-ghost:(Ghost) :deoxys-speed::grimmsnarl::rayquaza: :arceus:(Poison)

B :lunala::magearna::pheromosa: :zekrom: :arceus:(Steel)

B- :gothitelle: :calyrex-ice::arceus:(Flying) :dialga: :giratina: :diancie-mega: :mewtwo-mega-x::arceus-dragon:(Dragon):lucario-mega:

C+
:chi-yu: :kyurem-black: :scizor-mega: :shuckle: :blissey: :landorus: :sableye-mega: :slowbro-mega: :clodsire: :necrozma-dawn-wings:

C- :arceus:(Rock):arceus:(Grass) :blastoise-mega: :buzzwole: :celesteela: :chansey: :chien-pao: :cloyster: :darmanitan-galar: :excadrill: :heatran: :garganacl: :great-tusk::iron-bundle: :blaziken-mega: :kangaskhan-mega: :melmetal: :regieleki: :reshiram: :skarmory: :solgaleo::toxapex::zamazenta-crowned:

Bad :annihilape: :arceus:(Bug) :arceus:(Electric) :arceus:(Fighting) :arceus:(Fire) :arceus:(Ice) :arceus:(Psychic) :darkrai: :deoxys: :dialga-origin: :dracovish: :espathra: :genesect::kyogre::kyurem-white: :groudon: :houndstone: :lugia: :alakazam-mega: :metagross-mega: :mewtwo: :naganadel: :palafin-hero::palkia: :roaring-moon: :shaymin-sky: :spectrier: :urshifu: :walking-wake: :zacian:

Edit: I think Kleavor is probably the best lead in the game but no testing so can't prove. Ursaluna is probably in the Cs on trick room and with Tera Water it could probably be a decent Ho Oh abuser.
 
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A personal VR doesn't really make a good discussion so lemme double post with reasonings.

Rises

:yveltal: A > S

I used Yveltal 4/5 of my NDWC games. Capable of running both offensive and defensive sets Yveltal is easily one of the most versatile threats there is. So many times the types I was weak to was literally Ground/Dark/Ghost so I found slapping it onto teams really easy. It also checks more Pdon sets than Ho-Oh and is harder to prepare for.

:palkia-origin: B+ > A

This Pokemon is a THREAT. If you don't have a Blissey it will break everything with ease. A lot of teams counterplay is using Sun and sacrificing Pdon into revenge killing.

:flutter-mane: B+ > A-
:ferrothorn: B+ > A-
:smeargle: B > A-
:ditto: B- > A-

Flutter Mane is a threat and a half and it gets a surprising amount of opportunities to setup. Ferrothorn is probably underranked here. Spikes are quite powerful with all the grounded mons and if you pair it with Rock move SR Pdon you can easily overwhelm Ho Oh with knock off. Webs is underrated and can easy be explored more to see its true power. A lot of powerful pokemon in this tier so Ditto is very reasonable to use and bulkier teams.

:arceus:(Poison) B- > B+

Underrated form. You lose your ability to check Zygarde and Pdon but you gain the immunity to Toxic and being good Xerneas answer.

:magearna: B- > B

Best Xerneas and Yveltal answer while providing Volt Switch support.

:gothitelle: :lucario-mega: :arceus:(Dragon) C+ > B-

I feel like these mons are more than just niche picks. Tera makes Goth quite a potent trapper especially against Scarf Koraidon. Mega Lucario's Bullet Punch sounds super anti meta duel to all of the fast tera ghost users that are usually used for the extreme speeds. Arceus Dragon is Arceus Water that can hit Pdon with it stab so it can use will o wisp better but sadly it loses the ability to check tera fairy Zygarde.

:chien-pao: :darmanitan-galar: :iron-bundle::reshiram: :solgaleo: :zamazenta-crowned: D > C-

I don't know these pokemon being in D feels wrong. They all have interesting qualities that might make them at least somewhat worthwhile.

:great-tusk: UR > C-

Got a okay niche with checking Koraidon and some Pdon while being able to preserve your own hazards.

Drops

:koraidon: S > S-

Koraidon is obviously amazing but the ones I have put above are able to be used both offensively and defensively. Koraidon is overkill on the former but the latter is mostly only switching into Yveltal foul play. This is all fine though as this is just my philosophy and most people would disagree with this.

:arceus:(Ground) S > A+
:ho-oh: S- > A+
:eternatus: S- > A+

A lot of this is just cleaning the S rank which I feel is heavily cluttered by Pokemon that are below the big 5™.
Arceus-Ground is great because its a Arceus form that can hit Pdon super effectively but it doesn't offer as many useful resists as lets say Fairy and Dark.
Ho-Oh is great but my god that exploitable weakness really holds it back from S ranks. The most popular SR setter can keep them up vs It very easy. However Ho-Oh is still Ho-Oh and can often times shut down entire threats by its sheer bulk and regen.
Eternatus is great as a offensive threat but its hard to fit sometimes and the Recover nerf hit the defensive sets hard.

:zygarde-complete: S > A+/A

Zygarde is in a weird place due to how good Taunt Arceus forms are and I think it can suffer with being too passive with its low attack. It also doesn't help that in tournaments its getting prepped to shit LOL.

:salamence-mega: A+ > A

Not gonna lie I didn't see this in the tour at very much. It definitely has a strong niche but I think its low usage comes from inability to tera and lots of the things its supposed to setup on can punish it in some way.

:marshadow: A- > B+

To be honest Marshadow has really suffered with the Speed Creep over the last 2 gens meaning its good trait of Speed is not really something boast about anymore. That and Koraidon making most teams run strong fighting resists makes its 4mms worse.

:lunala: B+ > B

Its okay. I like its ability its got good bulk and Ghost stab with Moonblast and Focus Blast is obviously broken. I think its problem is that outside of its bulk its a bit worse than the other ghost breakers like Flutter Mane which sports a better speed tier.

:kyurem-white: C- > D

Whatever weird anti meta thing Kyurem White is trying to is probably done by better by Reshiram whos stronger fire moves can get boosted by Koraidon's sun.
 
The rises you mentioned make alot of sense, especially Palkia-o. as you mentioned, without a counter to it it tears teams to shreds. However, it can easliy be revenge-killed by Koraidon and other fast pokemon. Palkia-o definitely deserves a rise though.
As for Koraidon, I think it would deserve a drop as well. Sure, it can shred teams if you are unprepared but everyone comes prepared for it. Its hard to find a team that doesn't have any sort of koraidon answer. Sometimes it feels like deadweight.
 
The rises you mentioned make alot of sense, especially Palkia-o. as you mentioned, without a counter to it it tears teams to shreds. However, it can easliy be revenge-killed by Koraidon and other fast pokemon. Palkia-o definitely deserves a rise though.
As for Koraidon, I think it would deserve a drop as well. Sure, it can shred teams if you are unprepared but everyone comes prepared for it. Its hard to find a team that doesn't have any sort of koraidon answer. Sometimes it feels like deadweight.
the thing with kora is no check to it is absolute and almost all of them are bypassed by sd sets: hooh has to fish for a sacred fire burn and can only be brought to the brink of death and whirlwind against tera fire, pdon doesn't like +2 low kick and fairies lose to tera fire (even flame charge does the trick). flame charge itself memes on scarfers/faster mons and can very well make the game depend on a speed tie with scarf kora. scarf kora is also the best revenge killer rn and can deal with even timid geoxern with tera (if you need to revenge geoxern it has probably killed a check with tera so you just trade teras) while dealing with chipped rp don, ddancers and more. basically, koraidon can find a slot on basically every team besides stall teams, and can even be considered broken, while having the splashability worthy of an S-rank mon.

also disagree with the marsh drop, i feel people haven't really seen the absolute wonder of tera ghos polter marsh. it 2HKOes hooh, max def arceus, pdon, etern, mmence and literally the entire meta bar from zygod. bulk up LO variants also go around throwing infinite z-moves that make gen 7 BU marsh seem tame, OHKOing stuff like hooh with tera and a boost like nothing. sneak is still good for picking off stuff too. marsh lost its niche as a good speed control option but it's an absolutely terrifying breaker that is overlooked with ladder using bad sets for it.
 
I feel like the Scarf koraidon is amazing but the SD variant is really the one to talk about. With 1 SD it reaches around NINE-HUNDRED AND FIFTY base attack, isnt locked into 1 move, and can obliterate everything in its path.
I'm not saying scarf is bad its just decently manageable imo and is being more as the S/V nat dex ubers metagame progresses.
 
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vesp

burnout
is a Contributor to Smogon
Best Xerneas and Yveltal answer while providing Volt Switch support
Zacian and NDM are undoubtably better at checking xern, bulkier, stronger faster than magearna but also more helpful vs the meta
I don't know these pokemon being in D feels wrong. They all have interesting qualities that might make them at least somewhat worthwhile
I'll just bullet through these
-Darm galar is wholly outclassed by Koraidon, who's an auto include on most teams
-pao is just too frail
-zama isnt that fast and fighting steel is damn near worthless, a steel who doesn't check xern is a waste of a team slot
-solgaleo has a worse movepool and typing as NDM but looks less cool and does less damage
-reshiram is slow as balls and sure it's boosted by Koraidon's sun, but that never stays up in a primal infested metagame
-bundle is ass, that's all.
Flutter Mane is a threat and a half and it gets a surprising amount of opportunities to setup. Ferrothorn is probably underranked here. Spikes are quite powerful with all the grounded mons and if you pair it with Rock move SR Pdon you can easily overwhelm Ho Oh with knock off. Webs is underrated and can easy be explored more to see its true power. A lot of powerful pokemon in this tier so Ditto is very reasonable to use and bulkier teams
Pdon gets spikes that's why its ranked so low. Mane has its niche, but A is defo a stretch, and smeargle is ranked low because webs are defo super powerful, but ho-oh is on like all the teams
This Pokemon is a THREAT. If you don't have a Blissey it will break everything with ease. A lot of teams counterplay is using Sun and sacrificing Pdon into revenge killing
It's main issue is that its just Koraidon fodder, which is like the second best pokemon in the game, but it has its niche if you have Koraidon bait.
Koraidon is obviously amazing but the ones I have put above are able to be used both offensively and defensively. Koraidon is overkill on the former but the latter is mostly only switching into Yveltal foul play. This is all fine though as this is just my philosophy and most people would disagree with this.
The VR ranks pokemon based on how good they are at what they do and as you've stated Koraidon does a positively ludicrous amount of damage, shit 2hkos dondozo, ranking Yveltal above this monstrosity is something I dont agree with, sure Yveltal is powerful, but Koraidon can ohko full teams even the stall ones.

Other than these though I like your post and whole heartedly agree
 
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bill.is.me

Banned deucer.
normally I kinda just sit around and never speak on the formes since it's a pain but this was kinda interesting so I'm gonna say stuff

I think yveltal rise would be very justified, I was reading the VR and kinda surprised to read it was lower than darkeus so uhh yea even if maybe not flat out S even like S- would still be reasonable for it I would say.

I mostly agree with what others have said about palkia O, I think a rise would be fine but A is a stretch koraidon is too prevalent and it gets worn down pretty quick by hazards especially if it tries to set up subs on reads not even mentioning hydro pump reliance which at least to me takes it down a good amount.

I agree with everything nap said about flutter, ferro (though I do think a ferro raise would be fine), and smeargle.
As for ditto that would be whatever it's not a mon I like much but it can do it's thing if slightly impaired by tera.

Agree with poisoneus raise

Mag is something I disagree with nap on, I think mag is a better solo answer those two rn exclusively because of tera. Mag can actually remove xerns boosts unlike those two instead of just losing to tera like they do. Which I think is quite nice combined with it's other support and yveltal checking make a raise justified I would say. Though it does have issues with fitting all it's moves and if it drops heart swap then it's defiantly worse at checking xern so yea.

Goth is cringe and cringe and yea... (but rise would be fine)
Lucario is... ehh idk fine I haven't used nor seen it used well enough to really say if it's niche is that worthwhile, I'll just mention that bullet punch isn't all it's made out to be, as the second *weakest* relevant priority move in the tier only above giratina shadow sneak (kangaskan doesn't count because cringe) you aren't really cleaning with it as you would a Ekiller (though it's other stabs are obviously quite strong)
arceus dragon I agree with

I would argue exactly zero of the mons nomed from D to C- should actually rise, to avoid not just copy pasting what nap said just read their post since I essentially agree.

I don't think koraidon should drop, I think it's defensive capacity is largely dismissed here but that's kinda whatever as they said most would disagree anyway.

Arceus ground and ho-oh are whatever, I think they probably shouldn't drop just because of *how* useful they are but they undeniably have big enough flaws for an argument to drop them to hold water. I could go either way and the idea to keep S cleaner is totally fair.

Etern on the other hand I think should 100% not drop, it's just consistently so valuable weather it's going offense or defense in my experience.

Not sure about zygod, I think it's flaws are pretty notable and it's been planned for alot but to teams that don't have taunt arceus (or defensive yveltal) it's still really dangerous and forcing the opponent to have taunt on their arceus or whatever or potentially be helpless to a tera zygod sweep is valuble in it's own right no?

I agree on mence and kyurem

marsh shouldn't drop, and especially not that far. It's no longer the amazing speed control it once was but even beyond that it still is amazing into Ekiller and shadow sneak is still strong enough to pick off weakened things. And even without that, the entire idea that marsh should drop due to speed creep kinda ignores what really makes marsh great. It's wallbreaking. Polter just hits everything so hard yes including the fighting resists used for kora (and god forbid if it's tera ghost) and things that take that die to low kick or CC, and that power without major drawback (other than lorb), without low accuracy, and without having to tera. It's just immediate consistent destruction... until you drop polter in which case yea fair it can suffer from movepool and power issues when you're biding on special theif.

Agree with lunala I don't see it much at all even if it's traits on paper are quite amazing.

So uhh yea we're at the end of this random post I made just cuz... ACTUALLY NO WE"RE NOT HA GOT YA

tiny things, I think basculegion is whatever, if we raised it I wouldn't cry but the post about it's replays where from pretty mid ladder and we only get two of em so like... we're gonna need more than that hun. We need to be shown that despite it's many issues it can still do what it's wants to do at least consistently enough to be ranked despite being the slowest scarfer in the tier, despite having both stabs have common immunities while having to be choiced, despite very lacking defensive anything other than fighting immunity, and despite not even outspeeding max speed zacian after scarf not to mention boosting threats other than necrozma dusk.

Ursa should probably be ranked just because melm is thanks to TR so like... yea, and kleavor is cringe I'll never back down deo S exists fight me.

Also I think everything runo said in his post is pretty much correct

also tera is cringe and unepic and should be banned because yea uwu

Okay it's the end fr this time <3 baiiiiiii
 
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bill.is.me

Banned deucer.
This one is kinda older but I think it's funny enough that I wanted to respond so yea idk

Being able to *maybe* trade with the majority of mons (if we let para slow down into revenge kill count as a trade) is so not rare it's not even funny. Bro should we also rank mental herb/boots sturdy forretress which can also lay hazzards and spin or do it even if rocks are up? No ofc not. Who cares if you can maybe trade with common mons you're still just trading. This not even mentioning how hard countered it is by super common stuff like dark types or mons that don't instantly fold to foul play LMAO.

Now I can already hear the "but prankster means it can *always* do it" and my responce is yea it also means you are useless vs yveltal, so what. Mega banette can do that too and can even kill them itself with dbond even if they're a dark type not just para but no one is noming that.

Bro may as well be using focus sash wob *Shrug*

:wooloo: edit: I edited this post, because the quoted content was deleted due to being blacklisted, but the answer is a good post.
 
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Could someone explain why Shuckle is ranked above Heatran? Makes no sense.
Also, I feel like Magearna should be moved up from B- to B. Sure, Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh really threaten magearna and stop player from using it, but the Shift Gear+Z-Move is broken. What you do is simple-have DeoS or Smeargle set Rocks/Spikes, then bring in Magearna. Shift Gear up. With Sticky Web (or if you got the shift gear before the switch), your opponent can't switch Pdon in because All Out Pummeling + Focus Blast with chip just K.Os, removing the check (by the way I didn't calc this it just happens when I play games). Even worse, if your opponent lets a poke go down thinking they can "safely" bring in Pdon, the unsuspecting 190 BP +1 All-Out-Pummeling with the hazard chip just K.Os. With T-Bolt, Magearna isn't afraid of Ho-Oh or Primal Kyogre, especially after hazards, or boost, or both. Sure, this does mean you can't go for the Searing Sunraze Smash (or whatever Solgaleo/NDM's Z is called) but that just gives you an option to run lefties, or lorb, or something else. However, if you REALLY want to have NDM's Z rather than Magearna's, fine. Palkia-O is an excellent Magearna partner, as now you have a Pdon check (I KNOW PDON IS IMMUNE TO WATER BUT OFFENSIVE PALKIA-O DRACO METEOR OHKOS FROM FULL HEALTH IT ALWAYS DOES FOR ME) and a poke that threatens Ho-Oh. NDM also can't stonewall Z-Move Mag, but what about non-Z? Well, hazard chip+sun+Fire Blast always does the job for me.
Even if Mag isn't moving up, please explain why. AND also explain why Shuckle, this bug turtle thingy, is better than a literal magma spider thing called Heatran.
 

bill.is.me

Banned deucer.
Could someone explain why Shuckle is ranked above Heatran? Makes no sense.
Also, I feel like Magearna should be moved up from B- to B. Sure, Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh really threaten magearna and stop player from using it, but the Shift Gear+Z-Move is broken. What you do is simple-have DeoS or Smeargle set Rocks/Spikes, then bring in Magearna. Shift Gear up. With Sticky Web (or if you got the shift gear before the switch), your opponent can't switch Pdon in because All Out Pummeling + Focus Blast with chip just K.Os, removing the check (by the way I didn't calc this it just happens when I play games). Even worse, if your opponent lets a poke go down thinking they can "safely" bring in Pdon, the unsuspecting 190 BP +1 All-Out-Pummeling with the hazard chip just K.Os. With T-Bolt, Magearna isn't afraid of Ho-Oh or Primal Kyogre, especially after hazards, or boost, or both. Sure, this does mean you can't go for the Searing Sunraze Smash (or whatever Solgaleo/NDM's Z is called) but that just gives you an option to run lefties, or lorb, or something else. However, if you REALLY want to have NDM's Z rather than Magearna's, fine. Palkia-O is an excellent Magearna partner, as now you have a Pdon check (I KNOW PDON IS IMMUNE TO WATER BUT OFFENSIVE PALKIA-O DRACO METEOR OHKOS FROM FULL HEALTH IT ALWAYS DOES FOR ME) and a poke that threatens Ho-Oh. NDM also can't stonewall Z-Move Mag, but what about non-Z? Well, hazard chip+sun+Fire Blast always does the job for me.
Even if Mag isn't moving up, please explain why. AND also explain why Shuckle, this bug turtle thingy, is better than a literal magma spider thing called Heatran.
while I agree shuckle is cringe and unepic and unfunny it's already in the niche but potentially threatening kinda tier thing idk, with that in mind it's like idk it's placement is fine. If anything I think the real argument here should be for moving *up* heatran, now I personally don't feel confident enough to make that argument but it could probably be done, being an amazing etern counter while switching in 100% freely vs most ho-oh and being able to deal with even tera xerneas with roar if it so chooses, as well as checking other threats such as non focus blast mewtwo Y. Now ofc it has serious flaws, such as a lack of recovery and issues with moves since you want all of rocks toxic roar magma storm and earth power but can only fit 4. Furthermore it overlaps with extremely popular mons such as ho-oh and PDon which makes it tough to fit despite it's very legitimate defensive qualities.

As for magerna uhh... now while I wouldn't disagree with a mag raise I do disagree with your reason as too why. shift gear mag is broken now is it? really? Last I checked it actually is quite bad for very obvious reasons, you say tbolt makes it not afraid of ho-oh or Pogre but are you sure about that one? since last I checked tbolt does a whole 40% max to the bird (252+ SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 144-170 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) even at plus 2 you can't kill. Furthermore even if you somehow got past ho-oh they can just send out their obgligitory scarfer (likely koraidon) and kill you since even a plus 2 mag is slower than every single scarfer in the tier, now while you do take hits from the likes of scarf yveltal or xerneas if they're koraidon (they probably will be) you just die to a single flare blitz. You say NDM can't stone wall Z mag but I have to ask.. why? I assume you're playing ladder and they'll commonly just use standard sets so using that we will find Z focus blast does a whole 52% max to 248 188 spdef necrozma dusk mane (252+ SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 178-210 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) so yea... idk about that one, Even a offensive dusk mane doesn't even come close to dying to Z focus even after rocks, furthermore Z focus into Tbolt doesn't even always kill an offensive dusk mane so you have to even risk focus blast. Pdon is much the same but since it's Tbolt immune you're always gonna have to risk a focus blast vs it since you don't kill with Z focus. you say you can handle these with palkia and sure palkia does do well but how do you get it in safely especially vs pdon and why do you think they will stay in? furthermore how do you get going vs even just neutral targets? Since you have no way to boost without getting a kill even something as mundane as arceus ground largely walls you not even consistently being 3 hit koed by Dgleam. And you can just forget breaking through actually special defensive targets such as eternatus which if packing black sludge isn't even a clean 4 hit ko.

And even with all that we then get to the "why am I using this over xerneas" bit, I only think there is about 1 possible response here and it's something like "but mag can hold an item like a Z move" and I counter with why would you want Z fighting mag when at plus 2 xern moonblast hits the same targets *just as hard*. moonblast is 95 BP times 1.333333 for fairy aura and 1.5 for stab that's a effective 190 base power, with the +2 from geo canceling out the not very effective, and it can be used more than once. And even ontop of that xerneas can still tera.

all out shift gear mag just isn't good, and while I think bulky stored power sets are funny they aren't that good either, the reason mag could rise is it's defensive sets and those sets only.
 
while I agree shuckle is cringe and unepic and unfunny it's already in the niche but potentially threatening kinda tier thing idk, with that in mind it's like idk it's placement is fine. If anything I think the real argument here should be for moving *up* heatran, now I personally don't feel confident enough to make that argument but it could probably be done, being an amazing etern counter while switching in 100% freely vs most ho-oh and being able to deal with even tera xerneas with roar if it so chooses, as well as checking other threats such as non focus blast mewtwo Y. Now ofc it has serious flaws, such as a lack of recovery and issues with moves since you want all of rocks toxic roar magma storm and earth power but can only fit 4. Furthermore it overlaps with extremely popular mons such as ho-oh and PDon which makes it tough to fit despite it's very legitimate defensive qualities.

As for magerna uhh... now while I wouldn't disagree with a mag raise I do disagree with your reason as too why. shift gear mag is broken now is it? really? Last I checked it actually is quite bad for very obvious reasons, you say tbolt makes it not afraid of ho-oh or Pogre but are you sure about that one? since last I checked tbolt does a whole 40% max to the bird (252+ SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 144-170 (34.6 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) even at plus 2 you can't kill. Furthermore even if you somehow got past ho-oh they can just send out their obgligitory scarfer (likely koraidon) and kill you since even a plus 2 mag is slower than every single scarfer in the tier, now while you do take hits from the likes of scarf yveltal or xerneas if they're koraidon (they probably will be) you just die to a single flare blitz. You say NDM can't stone wall Z mag but I have to ask.. why? I assume you're playing ladder and they'll commonly just use standard sets so using that we will find Z focus blast does a whole 52% max to 248 188 spdef necrozma dusk mane (252+ SpA Magearna All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 188 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 178-210 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) so yea... idk about that one, Even a offensive dusk mane doesn't even come close to dying to Z focus even after rocks, furthermore Z focus into Tbolt doesn't even always kill an offensive dusk mane so you have to even risk focus blast. Pdon is much the same but since it's Tbolt immune you're always gonna have to risk a focus blast vs it since you don't kill with Z focus. you say you can handle these with palkia and sure palkia does do well but how do you get it in safely especially vs pdon and why do you think they will stay in? furthermore how do you get going vs even just neutral targets? Since you have no way to boost without getting a kill even something as mundane as arceus ground largely walls you not even consistently being 3 hit koed by Dgleam. And you can just forget breaking through actually special defensive targets such as eternatus which if packing black sludge isn't even a clean 4 hit ko.

And even with all that we then get to the "why am I using this over xerneas" bit, I only think there is about 1 possible response here and it's something like "but mag can hold an item like a Z move" and I counter with why would you want Z fighting mag when at plus 2 xern moonblast hits the same targets *just as hard*. moonblast is 95 BP times 1.333333 for fairy aura and 1.5 for stab that's a effective 190 base power, with the +2 from geo canceling out the not very effective, and it can be used more than once. And even ontop of that xerneas can still tera.

all out shift gear mag just isn't good, and while I think bulky stored power sets are funny they aren't that good either, the reason mag could rise is it's defensive sets and those sets only.
Idk all you say is right but when I play it just works out the way I said, Magearna for me can just outright end games. Then again I'm a low ladder player so it's probably not good for like 1400 1800 elo
 

vesp

burnout
is a Contributor to Smogon
]
Could someone explain why Shuckle is ranked above Heatran? Makes no sense
It's a suicide lead with rocks, web, encore and a built in sash. I can't think of anything Tran does that ho-oh doesn't do.
Also, I feel like Magearna should be moved up from B- to B. Sure, Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh really threaten magearna and stop player from using it, but the Shift Gear+Z-Move is broken.
Xern is wayyy better, thats why
With T-Bolt, Magearna isn't afraid of Ho-Oh or Primal Kyogre,
+1 252+ SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 214-254 (51.5 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Yes it is.
 

Eledyr

Le vilain petit Wooloo
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kept you waiting, uh ? A new VR update just happened, in the light of the recent tournaments.

Rises:

:ho-oh: from S-1 to S3
:zygarde: from S-3 to S2
:xerneas: from S-4 to S-3
:kyogre-primal: from A1 to A+2
:yveltal: from A4 to A+4
:marshadow: from A-4 to A3
:flutter mane: from B+ to A2
:palkia-origin: from B+ to A-5
:arceus-poison: from B- to A-2
:ditto: from B- to B+
:giratina: from B- to B
:arceus::draco plate: from C+ to B-
:chi-yu: from C+ to B-
:gothitelle: from C+ to B
:lucario-mega: from C+ to B+
:shuckle: from C+ to B-
:blissey: from C to B-
:melmetal: from C- to C
:toxapex: from C- to B
:dialga-origin: from D to C
:necrozma-dawn-wings: from D to C-
:cresselia: from UR to C
:dondozo: from UR to C
:ursaluna: from UR to C

Drops:


:arceus::earth plate: from S2 to S-1
:necrozma-dusk-mane: from S3 to A-1
:arceus::dread plate: from A+2 to A+3
:salamence-mega: from A+3 to A4
:arceus::pixie plate: from A+4 to A5
:arceus: from A+5 to A1
:arceus::splash plate: from A2 to B+
:giratina-origin: from A3 to A-4
:necrozma-ultra: from A-1 to A-6
:mewtwo-mega-y: from A-2 to B+
:deoxys-attack: from A-5 to B+
:arceus::spooky plate: from B+ to B
:pheromosa: from B to C+
:arceus::sky-plate: from B- to C+
:arceus::iron-plate: from B- to C+
:magearna: from B- to C+
:diancie-mega: from B- to C+
:mewtwo-mega-x: from B- to C+
:arceus::stone plate: from C+ to D
:kyurem-black: from C+ to C
:scizor-mega: from C+ to UR
:celesteela: from C to UR
:chansey: from C to UR
:landorus: from C to D
:landorus-therian: from C to UR
:slowbro-mega: from C to UR
:cloyster: from C- to UR
:garganacl: from C- to UR
:kyurem-white: from C- to D
:blastoise-mega: from C- to D
:kangaskhan-mega: from C- to D
:blaziken-mega: from C- to D
:regieleki: from C- to D
:houndstone: from D to UR

Once again, you can see the slate here. Also, if you have any question, feel free to ask me or entrocefalo here or on Discord. Also on a side note, Primals are no more able to Terastallize, (as they were never supposed to in the first place) but it didn't affect their place in the VR. One final note, the Tiering Council wants to gauge the opinion of the playerbase in a close future, so expect movement soon!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
kept you waiting, uh ? A new VR update just happened, in the light of the recent tournaments.

Rises:

:ho-oh: from S-1 to S3
:zygarde: from S-3 to S2
:xerneas: from S-4 to S-3
:kyogre-primal: from A1 to A+2
:yveltal: from A4 to A+4
:marshadow: from A-4 to A3
:flutter mane: from B+ to A2
:palkia-origin: from B+ to A-5
:arceus-poison: from B- to A-2
:ditto: from B- to B+
:giratina: from B- to B
:arceus::draco plate: from C+ to B-
:chi-yu: from C+ to B-
:gothitelle: from C+ to B
:lucario-mega: from C+ to B+
:shuckle: from C+ to B-
:blissey: from C to B-
:melmetal: from C- to C
:toxapex: from C- to B
:dialga-origin: from D to C
:necrozma-dawn-wings: from D to C-
:cresselia: from UR to C
:dondozo: from UR to C
:ursaluna: from UR to C

Drops:


:arceus::earth plate: from S2 to S-1
:necrozma-dusk-mane: from S3 to A-1
:arceus::dread plate: from A+2 to A+3
:salamence-mega: from A+3 to A4
:arceus::pixie plate: from A+4 to A5
:arceus: from A+5 to A1
:arceus::splash plate: from A2 to B+
:giratina-origin: from A3 to A-4
:necrozma-ultra: from A-1 to A-6
:mewtwo-mega-y: from A-2 to B+
:deoxys-attack: from A-5 to B+
:arceus::spooky plate: from B+ to B
:pheromosa: from B to C+
:arceus::sky-plate: from B- to C+
:arceus::iron-plate: from B- to C+
:magearna: from B- to C+
:diancie-mega: from B- to C+
:mewtwo-mega-x: from B- to C+
:arceus::stone plate: from C+ to D
:kyurem-black: from C+ to C
:scizor-mega: from C+ to UR
:celesteela: from C to UR
:chansey: from C to UR
:landorus: from C to D
:landorus-therian: from C to UR
:slowbro-mega: from C to UR
:cloyster: from C- to UR
:garganacl: from C- to UR
:kyurem-white: from C- to D
:blastoise-mega: from C- to D
:kangaskhan-mega: from C- to D
:blaziken-mega: from C- to D
:regieleki: from C- to D
:houndstone: from D to UR

Once again, you can see the slate here. Also, if you have any question, feel free to ask me or entrocefalo here or on Discord. Also on a side note, due to in-game discoveries, Primals are no more able to Terastallize, but it didn't affect their place in the VR. One final note, the Tiering Council wants to take action on Tera, so expect something to happen soon!
does this update the list on the main page or does that remain unchanged
 

bill.is.me

Banned deucer.
lucario is a really good wallbreaker, in a past post I'm pretty sure I kinda threw shade at it but after using it it's pretty solid and is good at pressuring or just luring and destorying ho-oh which can be extremely valuable. That with decent enough speed and bullet punch which while not great can revenge kill weakened threats well enough. Obviously very flawed but like... I mean man it hits harder than koraidon with it's stabs lol. I think that massive of a rise is maybe much but the mon was deserving of something I would say.

As for dawn wings uhh... trick room ig? idk I've never used it even on such teams and never even really considered it but idk could be cool with like meteor beam. A special tr abuser not stuffed by pdon would be interesting for sure, might be something.
 
why did Pogre rise? Also, why the rise for NDW? and finally, what did Toxapex gain?

also, somebody asked above why Mega Lucario is good.

because it is able to hit harder than the past bike with STABs, gets Sword's Dance, has a wide movepool, and also looks cool. What could go wrong?

Oh, and +2 Bullet Punch is almost as powerful as +2 Extremespeed from Arceus-Normal with Silk Scarf. And it can hit ghosties (although most of them are too bulky and fat to care)
 
mluke has all these neat things but it also has stone edge for hooh unlike kora, which is a big thing that sets it apart from the bike

(also i feel unec could drop lower tbh as darks are everywhere, and scarf kora revenges you anyway while with sd you're slowish. marshadow being a thing is also not appreciated and it can't even tera)
 

bill.is.me

Banned deucer.
while it's true lucario has stone edge for ho-oh imo you're never actually using it *over* koraidon. At least I can't imagine doing that as opposed to using it *with* kora to break for it, esspecially since it's not like kora can't use sets to destory ho-oh if it wants to anyway.

why did Pogre rise? Also, why the rise for NDW? and finally, what did Toxapex gain?

also, somebody asked above why Mega Lucario is good.

because it is able to hit harder than the past bike with STABs, gets Sword's Dance, has a wide movepool, and also looks cool. What could go wrong?

Oh, and +2 Bullet Punch is almost as powerful as +2 Extremespeed from Arceus-Normal with Silk Scarf. And it can hit ghosties (although most of them are too bulky and fat to care)
As for this ogre is just good, amazing breaking, solid defensive utility it's just a good mon even tho no more tera hurts it a good amount.

Tox is weird, it's solid but I agree that much of a rise is odd.

And umm... no lucario +2 BP isn't even CLOSE to plus 2 silk scarf Espeed.

+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 279-328 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 162-192 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

In fact it's actually closer to the power of *unboosted* arceus Espeed LOL

252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 139-165 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As i've said before if you're expecting to clean with BP you've thought wrong. it's just not nearly strong enough again being the second *weakest* viable priority in the tier.

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Groudon-Primal: 328-388 (81.1 - 96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rocks

stuff like this on the other hand is what really makes it solid. Along with that speed tier which while not amazing outspeeds all the sub base 110 stuff when plus speed and alot of the mons that like to creep for them like arceus and etern.
 

Giyu

Tomioka
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Why is Arceus-Poison ranked so high? I haven't seen it used by anyone, including myself, and there doesn't seem to be a reason to use it over Eternatus.
 
Why is Arceus-Poison ranked so high? I haven't seen it used by anyone, including myself, and there doesn't seem to be a reason to use it over Eternatus.
If I would have to guess it would be because of its ability to check xerneas, however poison arceus can be walled by tera steel variants which I’ve seen a bit of and have been successful. However that’s all I could think of that it could be checking off the top of my head.
 
Eternatus is indeed much better, now that it got Fire Blast this gen. Arceus is both slower and weaker specially, and Eternatus isn't no slouch with regards to bulk. Also, Eternatus can hold items like leftovers or life orb/z-item.
 
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 279-328 (64.7 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 162-192 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

In fact it's actually closer to the power of *unboosted* arceus Espeed LOL
yeah sorry that was unintentional I meant normal Espeed without boosts.
 

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