Resource National Dex Ubers Viability Rankings [Update #6 at post 231!]

bumboclaat

Primal Groudon used Overheat
is a Community Contributor
S+
1. :groudon-primal:
2. :xerneas:

S
1. :arceus:
2. :zygarde-complete:
3. :calyrex-ice:

S-
1. :necrozma-dusk-mane:
2. :arceus::dread-plate:
3. :marshadow:

A+
1. :ho-oh:
2. :necrozma-ultra:
3. :eternatus:
4. :arceus::earth-plate:

A
1. :kyogre-primal:
2. :yveltal:
3. :arceus::pixie-plate:
4. :deoxys-attack:

A-
1. :zacian-crowned:
2. :arceus::splash-plate:
3. :salamence-mega:
It is likely to be biased because it is a meta from the perspective of HO.
As Runo mentioned some of these noms are pretty pretty out there so it would probably best if you your reasoning. The ones that stand out to me are :xerneas: :arceus: :marshadow: :ho-oh: :eternatus: :arceus::earth-plate:* :Yveltal: :deoxys-attack: :zacian-crowned: :salamence-mega:

*Personally I think :arceus::earth-plate: would fit in fine at the top of A+ but being at the bottom of A+ is too low.

First of all, please understand that the context is not smooth because I use a translator. ( It may sound rude because of the translator. sorry)

With the exception of :necrozma-dusk-mane:, there are almost no steel types in the meta. Even the :necrozma-dusk-mane: that exists can be easily overcome by :calyrex-ice: with Tera Fight or Tera Ground.

Also, the mention of being trick-room dependent is personally unacceptable. Are pokemon that outspeed all pokemon containing :zacian-crowned: after Agility dependent on Trick room?

I think it's almost a perfect pokemon, except that it relies on Tera.


Obviously I think I overrated :Marshadow: . Thank you for your good opinion.
I was planning on making a :calyrex-ice: post to nom it to B+ in a day or two once I have the time but thought I'd go into this one in detail since it has been my favourite mon in the tier for the last two months. Defensive :necrozma-dusk-mane: is quite literally the only comfortable switchin to :choice-band::calyrex-ice: in the tier that is reasonably splashable. :dondozo: is the the best obviously but that only fits on stall. Defensive :kyogre-primal: works as well since it avoids the 3hko but it often has other mons it would rather be checking.

So :calyrex-ice: is a fantastic mon but it is not in any way a splashable mon. It has a lot of drawbacks which you have to account for when building your team if you want to get the most out it. Generally any mon that is A+ or higher is going to be something that you can mindlessly throw on a team and it will be fine. :Calyrex-ice: unfortunately is not one of these mons and its offensive capabilities are not enough to make up for its defensive shortcomings. For a practical example, looking at some mons A+ or higher you can take a core of :groudon-primal::kyogre-primal::eternatus: +3 and make a decent team ranging from hyper offence to fat balance and it will probably turn out fine.

Personally I wholly disagree with this take regarding tera for :calyrex-ice:. In my experience you either want to go all out offensive and
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to go absolute beserk with damage or use a defensive tera.
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is my personal preference, but
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all work. Frankly a lot of types work as long as you know what situation you actually plan to tera.

Calyrex-Ice @ Choice Band
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
Tera Type: Steel / Whatever else you want w/ defensive utility
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Glacial Lance
- High Horsepower
- Aromatherapy / Leech Seed
- Trick

If :calyrex-ice: should rise it is purely based on the set above. I'd personally have OTR and Boots somewhere in the C/C+ range. :choice-band::calyrex-ice: in no way needs trick room (shoutout to Weirdhamster for the :hattrem::hatterene: TR team though that was
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). It fits in fine as a breaker on balances as long as it has a little bit of support (:ho-oh:).
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/
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Tera is entirely uneeded since High Horsepower already 2hkos :necrozma-dusk-mane:. It is the main reason you're running the move in the first place as Glacial Lance already 2HKOs or OHKOs almost the entire tier unboosted.

As for outspeeding :zacian-crowned: after an agility I don't really consider this relevant because I believe :calyrex-ice: really needs :choice-band: to actually be a good mon rather than a viable gimmick. :zacian-crowned: gets ohko'd by a +1 lance anyways and it is a big part of why I perfer
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. If it comes into a healthy :calyrex-ice: it is almost assuredly clicking bemoth blade which will not do much after
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. The same applies to :xerneas: and moonblast. :calyrex-ice: isn't something you are going to want to tera often but being able to flip matchups against arguably the two biggest threats in the tier is amazing. As an aside, :ho-oh: is is the biggest annoyance with
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as you have to play the 50/50 sacred fire game. The :groudon-primal: matchup doesn't really change. It essentially needs to run a fully invested heat crash, eruption, or overheat otherwise there will be a fainted :groudon-primal: with a 5% :calyrex-ice: to sac later.
 

R8

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Contributor Alumnus
National Dex Leader
:marshadow:
Honestly I do agree Marshadow probably deserves to be ranked higher than where it currently is (possibly even somewhere in the A+? :psywoke:). Runo's touched on how outside of ditto our speed control options are not great, which makes Marshadow's relatively strong technician boosted Shadow Sneaks very valuable to pick up weakened threats, especially considering how scary Ultra-Necrozma can be sometimes, and generally is a cool security to have vs HO. Ofc it's not going to do the whole job for you, but it still can be very helpful. Band sets are decently customisable, spectral thief is nice as a secondary ghost stab alongside poltergeist which gives you a bit more security vs coil zygarde, cm p-ogre, whatever else you can steal boosts against, and very importantly is more reliable in terms of accuracy (honestly I think u can make an argument to drop poltergeist for spectral thief on adamant sometimes).

Ofc it also is a fierce wallbreaker, but in a nutshell what I really value so much on this mon is the combination of counterplay it offers against offensive threats on top of being able to be a huge threat itself. Of course you can be cheesed by random stuff running tera normal specifically for marsh, but from what I saw so far it's not that common + at least ultra necrozma can't do that lol


:Salamence-mega:
This is more of a question to the community rather than an actual nomination, but do y'all think the mon still deserve to be at A+? I feel like we didn't see much this mon for a solid minute, neither in ndpl nor ndfl. I'll be honest I don't have that much experience about the mon in general, but it kinda feels so easy to slap an arc form or zyg-c as a pdon check I don't really think that much about mence anymore. I do recognise how much of a threat it can pose though so maybe I'm just overlooking its qualities (the mon do be A+ in sm ubers lol), and maybe it deserves to be used/explored more than what it currently is
 

bumboclaat

Primal Groudon used Overheat
is a Community Contributor
I woke up to the previous personal VR I thought I'd make my own for the end of the year. So these are the Bumboclaat 2023 Natdex Ubers VR. First, everything is ordered by viability. Second, you may notice that this VR is quite a bit shorter than the VR we currently have. The missing mons are mostly arceus formes I have neither seen nor used in a considerable amount of time. I felt it was best to opt to not include them as I frankly have no idea whether or not something like :arceus::meadow-plate: is actually a C rank mon and am not particularly interested in building a bunch of teams just to confirm that for a personal VR. Most of the other missing mons i.e. :melmetal: are mons I do not believe are viable. However, there may be a mon that I have accidently taken off this VR and not noticed. If there is one please let me know.
1. Balance: A+ - Simply the best playstyle in the tier at the moment in my opinion. There isn't a huge gap between balance and every other playstyle, but has easily accessible options to tech for any matchup without becoming a fish. :Groudon-primal::kyogre-primal::eternatus::ho-oh: +2 can match up well against pretty much everything. Definitely my favourite core at the moment.
2. Fat Balance A - The playstyle I run into the least but still the second best. I don't think it is the most fun style to play or build, but it generally has less matchup issues than the three styles below it. Generally it hates facing balance w/ a couple of strong breakers but has the longevity and enough offensive pressure to have positive matchups against bulky offence and hyper offence.
3. Hyper Offence A- - Intially I had bulky offence above hyper offence but switched them. Whenever I load bulky offence into a good HO I always end up wishing I'd gone with some form of balance instead. HO in my experience doesn't have a lot of trouble finding the openings it needs against BO to facilitate a sweep. It can do this against balance as well but it is a lot harder. A huge part of why balance is in such a great spot is because it is able to fit mons which can reasonably answer the absurd threats found on HO. Loading HO into a balance team is definitely a winnable matchup but requires more precision and better play than in the :koraidon: meta. The A- rating is mainly on the back of :deoxys-speed: spike at the moment as webs and screens have both fallen off to somewhere around B. They are still decent but a bit matchup fishy for my liking.
4. Bulky Offence B+ - I do not think that BO is much worse than HO but there is a slight gap. I also don't think there is much of a gap between BO and stall. BO is by far the style which most appreciates the :koraidon: ban as it semi mandated certain structures to avoid straight up crumpling to it. The matchup into Balance, Fat Balance, and HO is tilted slightly against against BO at the moment but they are all winnable, but require more careful positioning and have a smaller margin for error. Stall is really the only style it really doesn't like running into due to limited longevity of the defensive mons and the difficulty of many breakers found on BO structures in making progress v stall.
5. Stall B+ - I struggled the hardest rating stall due to it being the highest variance style. It isn't quite a matchup fish but it is the style where the majority of the impact for both the stall player and their opponent is felt in the builder. In game play of course matters, but at the end of the day you either have the tools to break the stall team in front of you or you don't. With that being said in my opinion stall is the most skill intensive playstyle that requires proactive plays in order to succeed. I could hand a new player a good team from any of the other archetypes and they'd have a decent level of success, but if I were to hand that same player a stall team their results would not be quite as good

S Rank

S+


1. :groudon-primal:

I've been thinking over the last couple of weeks whether :ho-oh: deserves to share a subrank with the boss and ultimately I think there is still enough separation between the two for :groudon-primal: to maintain sole control of the mantle. :Groudon-Primal: really needs no introduction. It has and continues to be the best mon every ubers tier it has been legal since its inception. If you are not running stall there needs to be a solid reason to drop this mon. El Hefe is still a mon that can fulfil nearly any offensive or defensive role you need it do. Hell it even received spikes this generation to make it even more flexible in the builder.

S
A mon which can fit on nearly any style of team and provides the team with offensive and defensive support. A S tier mon may have some flaws but they are easily covered in the builder.

1. :Ho-oh:
2. :eternatus:

This is likely the hottest take of my post, but I believe :ho-oh: is firmly the second best mon in the tier at the moment and not particularly far behind :groudon-primal:. If I build anything but HO I am looking for a reason a reason to not include :ho-oh: and rarely find one. It truly is the glue that holds the tier together to where it feels nigh mandatory. If you want hazard removal you generally have four options:
1. :ho-oh: - fits on every single teamstyle but HO
2. :giratina-origin: - Fits well on BO and some balance structures
3. :giratina: - Only fits on stall alongside :ho-oh: and maybe some fat balances
4. :arceus: - Usually :arceus::pixie-plate: whenever I've seen it but I havn't seen any defog :arceus: in a long time and when I have I've been unimpressed.

Whilst :giratina-origin: can replace :ho-oh: on BO structures you still do miss the absolutely bonkers longevity and defensive utility that :ho-oh: brings. You'll have to find some other way to check :xerneas: and :zacian-crowned: which is a lot easier said than done. You miss a special sponge/pivot/general scout which can sponge some of the scariest attackers around. You miss being able to tera
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to phase :xerneas: and :zacian-crowned: and softcheck :kyogre-primal: . When I look at my builder and many other teams people post or send me they simply would not be able function if I replaced :ho-oh: with another mon to fill its role and still function well as a whole. The only other mon I can say this about is the one above it, :primal-groudon:.

This also doesn't get into other teras which ho-oh can easily run, particularly on offensive variants or on stall even though
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is certainly the best on most teams. Offensive :ho-oh: is also underexplored.
:eternatus: is likely the most splashable mon in the tier. No matter what playstyle you decide to build a team around there is an :eternatus: set which will fit it like a glove. The classic defensive sets with toxic or toxic spikes, sometimes both are staples on stall, balances, and fat balances. If you want something more offensive :power-herb::firium-z::choice-specs: are all incredibly easy to slap on your HO, BO, or balance. Its typing, bulk, ability, STABs, speed, and coverage allow you to always get some value out of it even if it seems useless on preview. What sets it apart from :ho-oh: is how easily you can drop :eternatus: from a team with minimal reprecussions. Whilst something like :power-herb::eternatus: is an amazing breaker / cleaner on more offensive structures you can replace it with other mons that fulfil a similar purpose. The same is true of tspikes:eternatus: on more defensive structures. While it is amazing on every team it is not mandatory on every team and that drops it slightly below :ho-oh: in my eyes.

S-
Basically S but with slightly more drawbacks

1. :Zygarde-Complete:
2. :Xerneas:
3. :zacian-crowned:

In my mind these mons fall into a similar category of massive offensive threats that any good team will either out offence or have to have some defensive measure. If your team does not they can and will sweep you. They might get there in different ways but the end result will be the same.

When I initially made my VR I had :Zygarde-complete: as S-[3] but after thinking about it a bit more the defensive utility that :Zygarde-complete: puts it above, though not by much, :xerneas: and :zacian-crowned:, even if they are scarier mons. :Zygarde-complete: has a precence in the midgame that :xerneas: and :zacian-crowned: can only dream of. It is going to come out, glare a mon or six, get its transformation and/or tera off, then come back in the endgame and whup your paralyzed for 4 straight turns ass while you wonder what you did to deserve this level of hax. It also isn't deadweight v stall teams as it can act as a pivot and status sponge while toxic and hazard damage lets it get a free transformation off and clean up the rest of the stall team after :dondozo: is chipped/KO'd if needed.

Sometimes it decides it change things up and will run the trapper set which can win games off of a singular correct turn. Though I'm not the biggest fan, DD sets are good and have their place on HO, particularly in the HO mirror. Recently
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has been picking up usage on the ladder to the point where you cannot just assume that it will be
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and you have to account for that.

However, every teamstyle has splashable :zygarde-complete: counterplay available to them whether it is :dondozo: on stall or just generally strong special attackers /
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:ho-oh:. That being said, there will still be games there :zygarde-complete: harnesses the yellow magic to push through its checks and counters barring :dondozo:.
To me :xerneas: is scarier than :zacian-crowned: despite having signficantly more counterplay. If I were to judge purely based on what I've experienced on ladder compared to what the mon is actually capable of :xerneas: would be somewhere around A/A+. No ladder it is still a win to phase :xerneas: with :ho-oh: after a geomancy even if you predict the
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and do 90% with moonblast. You also don't have to have geomancy the first turn :xerneas: hits the field. Firing off a strong moonblast or making a double is perfectly fine. The same applies to trying to set up on :zygarde: it is going to
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/
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and glare you then switch out.

So as anyone who has played more than 5 games above the 1000's knows and unscouted :xerneas: is arguably the scariest mon in the tier. There are only three mons that I could classify as counters, being
a) :ho-oh: Barring the unset of
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hp rock when you don't tera a healthy :ho-oh: with tera intact is the only good/splashable full :xerneas: counter. It can live any hit :xerneas: will throw at it from full and phase it.
b):necrozma-dusk-mane: If it wants to run earthquake, which can difficult to fit, it is a full counter. If it doesn't it is at the mercy of what the :xerneas: is actually running. Substitute +
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/
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will beat it if :necrozma-dusk-mane: drops earthquake.
c) :chansey: This is restricted to stall but handles :xerneas: as it will never be able to beat it with the exception of
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focus blast which does 2hko through confide. Though the :chansey: can always tera if it needs to.
d) :magearna: This is a huge part of its viability though it only fits on fat balance and is not a great mon overall.

Notably absent as a counter is :groudon-primal: as the ban of :koraidon: has allowed :xerneas: to run a modest nature which does 2hko even defensive :groudon-primal. An honourable mention goes to defensive :primal-kyogre: which will at worst leave :xerneas: crippled enough to easily pick it off or outright trade depending on scald burns and if it has a calm mind boost.

:rocky-helmet::leftovers::choice-scarf::fairium-z: are all viable sets that have their places on a few teams but I've ignored them because ultimately I wouldn't change :xerneas:'s rank if they didn't exist. :xerneas: is the mon you have to most prepare for in the builder for me because it mandates both a hard check / counter and a soft check if you arn't running HO.
There are a lot of people who would put :zacian-crowned: above :xerneas: and whilst I understand their reasoning I disagree with them. I don't think :zacian-crowned: is far below :xerneas: and could certainly be convinced to flip them, but there are three reasons I have it below :xerneas:.

First, it is fairly skittishness it has actually getting on the field. To begin with it doesn't actually like switching into much of anything unscouted so you're often having to double to get it in which inherently has an element of risk or getting it after a KO. If you look at the current VR there are 3 mons :zacian-crowned: can actually somewhat confidently switch into: :yveltal::Arceus::mewtwo-mega-y:. The only mon of these that :zacian-crowned: is actually happy to switch into is :yveltal:. It only fears heat wave which is somewhat uncommon. As an aside :zacian-crowned: is in my opinion the only mon that actually wants to switch into :life-orb::yveltal: (:arceus::pixie-plate: is a fake switchin). It also resists extremespeed and that is where its defensive utility ends. While it can switch into :mewtwo-mega-y: it is always a risk and not something I'd be keen on doing unless it has :arceus::dread-plate: or :yveltal: as a teammate to make it unlikely you're switching into a fire blast.

Second, compared to :xerneas: it absolutely hates being forced out. If :xerneas: hasn't burned its :power-herb: it doesn't care much about :ho-oh: phasing it out as long as it hasn't taken much chip as it can likely find another opportunity to switch in and do its thing. :zacian-crowned: loosing that free +1 really alters its gameplan as a lot of ohkos get turned into 2hkos, 2hkos, get turned into 3hkos, ect. An unboosted :zacian-crowned: is still a massive threat thanks to its power and speed, but shifts from a potential game ending one to a cleaner more often than not.

Third, its movepool. You know :xerneas: is going to have geomancy and moonblast, for the last two moves it can pick from a bajillion different moves. :Zacian-crowned: likewise is always going to have SD + a STAB (play rough is usually bad imo). After that you have 3 move choices for those two slots: wild charge, close combat, and tera blast ground (
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crunch is bad the 1/500 games you happen to be in v a :necrozma-ultra: where it makes a difference does not make up for it. Tera fight CC ohko's defensive :necrozma-dusk-mane: after a layer of spikes anyways).
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has the highest ceiling but requires more support and is somewhat risky as your :ho-oh: matchup becomes significantly worse, especially without that +1. Being forced to commit to a tera in this way is something that always knocks a set down a peg for me as:
a) There are going to a lot of matches where you don't want to tera :zacian-crowned: and you're left with a dead moveslot
b) You're more switching what actually answers you defensively as opposed to eliminating your answers.
c) You lose what defensive utility :zacian-crowned: actually has. You lose your toxic immunity as well as your resist to espeed and sucker punch

Compare this to :xerneas: which only really needs 10% chip on :ho-oh: to start its sweep if you elect to run HP Rock (HP Rock Focus Blast is the best set atm) and it gets past its three best answers in :ho-oh::groudon-primal::necrozma-dusk-mane:. These are also the three best counters to :zacian-crowned: and it is unable to do the same thing.
A+
Mons which offer a fantastic offensive or defensive presence but have more defined counterplay or more abusable flaws compared to those in S rank

1. :Arceus::Earth-Plate:
2. :kyogre-primal:
3. :arceus::dread-plate:
4. :yveltal:
5. :necrozma-ultra:
I can see it being in S- but I believe there is enough a difference in viability between :zacian-crowned: and :arceus::earth-plate: to merit an A+ placement. If there was a spot between S- and A+ it woud be there. Even if I'm a little lower on :arceus::earth-plate: than most it is still an :arceus::earth-plate: at the end of the day and it will likely never be anything less than top tier. It is also a mon I've never had much success with and I hope that isn't clouding my judgement (pun intended). While it is certainly the best :arceus: it isn't the most splashable, that goes to :arceus::dread-plate: in my opinion.

DD Taunt or Taunt/Refresh CM are the best sets at the moment. Power gem is generally better than ice beam to get past :ho-oh: to sweep on special sets though ice beam can work if the rest of your team is very secure v it. I'm not huge on defensive sets as I believe those are currently better done by other :arceus: forms.
This is bar none my current favourite mon to build with, well defensive :kyogre-primal: kyogre anyways. The damage output even without investment is still more than good enough and the hp/def investment lets it softcheck so many things it really shouldn't(i.e. +2 :xerneas: thunder is only 12.5% to ohko). It has just been putting in consistent work game in and game out.

I also came to the realization recently that thunder feels like a waste of a moveslot most of the time regardless of whether it is the defensive or wallbreaker set and that you really do not want to drop calm mind. Wallbreaker :kyogre-primal: sets are still as good as ever but you have to work too hard to get milage out of it. If :groudon-primal: didn't exist there is a good chance this would be banned.
Initially I was not sure whether this should be above or below :yveltal:. Though I like :yveltal: more being the best defensive answer to :necrozma-ultra: pushes it towards :arceus-dark:. Answering that thing defensively is an absolute nightmare that can be easily fixed by slapping :arceus-dark: on your team. The hardest thing is deciding between wisp or toxic. Chosing toxic means you're fodder for :zacian-crowned: whilst chosing wisp means you're in a worse spot vs most other things. The problem is that :zacian-crowned: is scary and common enough to make the decision somewhat hard.
Anyone that is familiar with me knows I've been singing :life-orb::yveltal:'s praises for most of the year. It is massively threatening to any mon that is slower than it, particularly stall. Any stall team without counterplay to :life-orb::yveltal: is a bad team and it is the sole reason :tyranitar-mega: has a spot on my vr. It is arguably the hardest mon to switch into with :zacian-crowned: being the only mon that is 'happy' to switch in only fearing the uncommon heat wave (:arceus::pixie-plate: is 3hko'd by wing so it is easy to take advantage of the forced recover).

That being said, :yveltal: does have some noticable flaws. Chosing the nature is hard as modest loses out on some significant speed tiers whilst timid loses out on some important damage thresholds. It doesn't take rock coverage aimed at :ho-oh: from :necrozma-ultra: or :power-herb::eternatus:. Fat sets also tend to be a bit passive for my liking. Sucker punch is a coinflip which can be taken advantage of by CM :arceus: among other things. :mirror-herb::yveltal: can go back to the depths of hell though. I have a 90% confusion rate v that.
When I said :xerneas: is the scariest mon in the tier I lied it might actually be :necrozma-ultra: Without :arceus::dread-plate: good luck answering a +1 :necrozma-ultra: defensively. Fat :yveltal: can't take stone edge and :life-orb: relies on sucker punch. Even :dondozo: is OHKO'd with minimal chip. It is even bleaker offensively. :Marshadow: requires :choice-band:or
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to OHKO after rocks.
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:arceus: requires a bit of chip as well. Trying to answer :necrozma-ultra: is often going to require multiple sacs and potentially your tera. This doesn't get into special sets either which are good, but worse than physical ones. However, :necrozma-ultra: is held back to some degree by its mediocre typing, relative frailty and the inability to access the defensive qualities of :necrozma-dusk-mane:.
A
Mons which offer significant offensive or defensive presence but have more noticable or exploitable flaws than those in A+
1. :Necrozma-dusk-mane:
2. :Salamence-Mega:
3. :marshadow:
4. :arceus::pixie-plate:
5. :arceus:
Ding Dong the :koraidon: is dead! :necrozma-dusk-mane: is the largest beneficiary of the :koraidon: ban. Whilst it hasn't returned to its place in the S tiers of generations past it is still a fantastic mon. Though I have it at the top of A I could easily see it in A+. It still largely does what it did in the past. It checks incredibly hard to checks mons while having the potential to maintain an offensive presence with a variety of sets. That being said, the meta is less hospitable to it than in the past. The prevelance of :arceus::dread-plate:, :yveltal: and
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/
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:xerneas: potentially with sub do hinder defensive sets. :xerneas: in particular can be quite annoying as earthquake can be rather annoying to fit on defensive sets. However, the other sets are really good right now with Defensive DD in particular being something I've thoroughly enjoyed using recently. OTR as always is scary as hell when you forget it exists and accidently proc the :weakness-policy:. I'll get into it later but being the only actual switchin to :choice-band::calyrex-ice: is really nice and underrated.
Well I suppose this is the answer to R8's question. I honestly have a hard time placing :salamence-mega: as it is simultaneously a S- and B+ rank mon at the same time. The upsides are enormous as nothing wants to face a +1 :salamence-mega: with three unrevealed moveslots (shoutout fat :kyogre-primal: though). If you sac a mon who can live a hit and attempt to status it you potentially get run over by facade this turn or a +2 facade the next turn. Oh wait it isn't running facade but refresh and proceeds to set up even more. And so on. Even :dondozo: gets 2hko'd by facade after rocks which isn't a particularly hard game state to achieve.

So while :salamence-mega: has S- potential it has a lot of flaws which are hard to ignore. It can't tera out of its surprsingly lousy defensive typing. Dragon/Flying has some great resistances, but incredibly exploitable weaknesses in this meta. Being weak to moonblast is never good in a :xerneas: meta. Rock coverage is everywhere for :ho-oh:. Ice coverage is somewhat common thanks to :kyogre-primal: but also to hit :zygarde-complete: (generally not worth it imo but that is a personal thing). Even dragon STAB is something to worry about as :eternatus: and :palkia-origin: both outspeed it and OHKO. Its bulk + potentially imtimidate helps allieviate this to some degree but generally isn't going to make a massive difference. Sure it has 372 speed but it really wants to run adamant and 372 speed isn't exactly blazing fast, especially when nearly everything that outruns it can OHKO it. It is also item locked so boots to prevent rocks damage either. More importantly than all of these is that it is not the easiest mon to build with. You have 5 other mons to cover these flaws, but unless you are running HO they are very real and somewhat annoying to account for. I do think :salamence-mega: has a place on some balance builds, maybe even a few fat balance ones, but its true home is HO or BO.

Even after writing this I'm not confident in where I've put :salamence-mega:. If someone told me it belongs at the bottom of A+ I'd be amenable to that. Likewise if they said somewhere around A-[2] or anywhere in between. Also if someone has a good team with defog:salamence-mega: please send it to me because everytime I've tried to build with it the results have been underwhelming.
I'm pretty sure I am a fair bit lower on :marshadow: than most. Its role in the meta is certainly a valuable and unique one. It is far and away the best revenger in the tier with amazing stabs and hits like a truck assuming you havn't crippled it with a :focus-sash:, particularly if it
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. However, it has quite literally zero defensive utility. I've said that about a few mons above, but :marshadow: truly stands out. It is immune to :arceus: and that is really about it. If you really stretch it you can say it lives some stronger neutral attacks. The speed tier though good, is not great. Outspeeding the 120's is great but then you look at the mons faster than :marshadow: and you don't know if :zacian-crowned: :xerneas: still need to be signifcantly chipped to revenge (about 40% even with
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:choice-band:).

You also have the difficult item choice of :choice-band: or :life-orb: Both are great items on :marshadow: but both have their drawbacks.
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:choice-band: is absolutely nuclear, but the prediction reliant nature of :choice-band: is incredibly frustrating at times, particularly against fat. :life-orb: sometimes lacks just a little bit of damage and the :life-orb: chip ensures that you are rarely living the few hits that don't OHKO. It also doesn't help that :marshadow: absolutely hates :zygarde:. Yes you can run ice punch, but it doesn't even ohko with :choice-band:.

While I've shittalked :marshadow: a lot it still a fantastic mon that holds a unique spot in the meta and pretty much singlehandely gatekeeps offensive
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s from higher viability. It is hard to imagine :marshadow: ever being bad in this tier, but its flaws also make it hard to imagine it ever eclipsing low A+ even in a favourable meta.
I don't have much to say about :arceus::pixie-plate:. Mono
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is a good offensive and defensive typing. It feels a little underwhelming at times but it does its job well. It leverages its typing and bulk to support the team well. Offensive sets are workable but you're often better off using a different :arceus: form in my opinion. Having to invest in 3 attacks to get past :groudon-primal::ho-oh::necrozma-dusk-mane: is too much to ask. On the other hand it is the only :arceus: that works well as a fogger at the moment which is something
The mon that hated the :koraidon: ban the most as it was far and away the best offensive check. I'm a little low on ekiller at the moment, but you are always going to run into an :arceus: with some combination of items and moves that is going to lay down a goobing, it is ekiller after all. It might be the mon that hates :zacian-crowned: the most in the tier and would immensly benefit from it leaving the tier. I do think it is underexplored on balance.
A-
Mons that offer a significant offensive or defensive presence but have more noticable flaws or are more exploitable than those in A

1. :deoxys-speed:
2. :mewtwo-mega-y:
3. :giratina-origin:
4. :arceus::splash-plate:
5. :deoxys-attack:
6. :rayquaza:
By far and away the best HO lead. Weirdhamster has convinced me it is viable screener even if I perfer :grimmsnarl:. Really the only downside :Deoxys-speed: has as a suicide lead is slight 4MSS. You have your hazards / screens taking up two slots then the last two have a lot of options. Taunt and Magic coat are your best bet but knock is great to have v fat. Thunder wave is an interesting option that could be explored. I'm not a fan of psycho boost but I'm assuming that is the dex being outdated. :deoxys-speed: is a very simple mon with you only really needing to decide whether or not to click magic coat v other leads. It is a representative of hazard stack and to some extent HO. As such its ranking is quite suseptable to meta shifts.
I finally got around to using this recently and on paper it is an A+ mon. Unfortunately, as we all know theorymon doesn't always translate in game and it does have some issues. It is incredibly physically frail and its special bulk, though not bad, is not great, especially since it doesn't invest. Its typing is mediocre. It can thud into a lot of more offensive teams. And most importantly its speed tier is a bit awkward. It is naturally quite fast, but outsped by and OHKO'd by :zacian-crowned: and everything that boosts past its speed tier as well as being very weak to priority.

It is however a fantastic breaker that exists in the most favourable meta it has seen for a while. It is an amazing breaker that gets to decide whether :yveltal: or :arceus::dread-plate: beats it. While my moaning above about the speed tier is true, outspeeding :eternatus: is quite valuable.
:giratina-origin: is potentially the most interesting mon in the tier as it allows you to deviate from :ho-oh: on BO and create some more interesting builds. It works on balance structures, but of course faces a ton of competition from :ho-oh:. This mon is really underexplored on balance and I'd like to build/see more experimentation whether it be offensive :giratina-origin: alongside :ho-oh: or maybe even taking a page out of stall's book and running double defog on a balance/fat balance to support rock weak breakers. Regardless it matches up well against most of our hazard setters and particularly :groudon-primal:. Just don't expect it to last forever as the passive damage is going to rack up.
This is my favourite :arceus: form. It is certainly far from the best, but is a lot of fun, just make sure you can handle :kygore-primal: and zarel doesn't code thunder to have a serene grace effect v you. The basic CM/Recover/Judgement/Earth Power 252/252+ is my favourite set. :koraidon: being banned really helps it a lot as it has a lot less pressure to run ice beam (you do miss it v :necrozma-ultra: though). :arceus::splash-plate: is that mon that clocks in and goes about its business in a quiet manner. Everything about it is just enough. It has just enough coverage to get the job done. Its typing is just good enough. Its defensive stats are just good enough (it does work as a makeshit :life-orb::yveltal:-check) to check what it needs to. Every now and then it'll just sweep out of nowhere. It is rarely if ever going to be a superstar on the team but it is a great role player as long as you arn't asking too much of it.
My name is :deoxys-attack: and you best have a :necrozma-dusk-mane::arceus::dread-plate::yveltal: or healthy :ho-oh: or expect to die (:ho-oh: might regardless to rock slide. :deoxys-attack: does the same thing it has always done: blast shit and blush that you were nice enough to call its defences paper thin.
It is probably best to clarify that this rank is mostly as the result of the current meta and is not by any means set in stone. Since the :koraidon: ban the meta has slowed down a bit and that only benefits :rayquaza:. In the future if the meta speeds up :rayquaza: will drop and if it continues to get fatter it will continue to get better.
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:choice-band::rayquaza: is a snek shaped nuke that feasts on fatter mons. Even :dondozo: is 2hko'd once you tera. 95 is a pretty good speed tier for a wallbreaker. :xerneas: running modest these days only helps things. It is also the only mon that can run u-turn with zero drawback which helps a lot. The game plan is pretty simple: Spam dragon ascent, u-turn out if that doesn't ko what is in front of you, v create if you run into defensive :necrozma-dusk-mane:, come in to revenge with espeed if needed.

For a mon weak to rocks it surprisingly doesn't hate rocks all that much since it isn't trying to take hits in the first place. A lot of the time those hits will OHKO so rocks don't matter much in the first place. :life-orb: is good but I think :choice-band: is better and easier to use at the moment. It isn't going to spend a ton of turns on the field but it is going to make them count.

B Rank

B+

Mons which provide offensive or devensive support but have significant downsides, require significant support, or are archtype specific
1. :calyrex-ice:
2.:ditto:
3. :palkia-origin:
4. :zekrom:
5. :arceus-poison::spooky-plate:
6. :lunala:
7. :giratina:
The most fun I have ever had in the tier is when I decided to build a :choice-band::calyrex-ice: team. I thought maybe it would be a bit of fun going in but it surpassed my wildest expectations. Perhaps most surprising thing is that it was almost never deadweight, trading at worst. Although the movepool is sparse, it has everything that it needs. Glacial lance 2hkos at worst every mon in the tier baring :necrozma-dusk-mane::dondozo:fat:kyogre-primal:. High horsepower hits :necrozma-dusk-mane: and is something to click v fat when you want to preserve lance pp. Trick essentially ends the game v stall / fat balance, and gives you leftovers or boots which are quite nice. Aroma obviously heals the team and isn't often clicked but does help a lot v stall and as a one time heal if needed v balance. Leech seed is an option over aromatherapy, but I am not a big fan.

The horse simply doesn't get ohko'd unless it is an incredibly powerful super effective move. For example, heat crash from 28+ :groudon-primal: is a 5% chance to 2HKO. 252+:kyogre-primal: needs water spout to ohko since origin pulse maxes at 88%. Its tera is also relatively free. I perfer
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for :necrozma-ultra:/:zacian-crowned: but any tera with a defensive purpose to fit your team will work.
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is overkill with the possible exception of a full TR team. If :calyrex-ice: needs a
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boost to break stuff with it is being used incorrectly. There are so many times where i've thought :calyrex-ice: is not going to do squat this game so might as well lead it and just get some damage. It'll then get 2+ kos.

There are two reasons :calyrex-ice: is B+ and not A-. The first is the level of support it requires. It isn't much, but it is not the type of mon you slap on a team. It needs defog support since it leverages its bulk to do its job. This is not a tough ask, but keeping rocks off the field for :calyrex-ice: is more important than for a mon like :rayquaza:. The second is its speed. Yes it has the bulk to take nearly any hit, but unless you're facing stall it is going to be taking one before it dishes it out and it generally isn't going to be taking more than 3-4 in a non stall match. This is a flaw that no amount of team support is going to fix. Sure it learns agility but it really needs that extra oomph from :choice band: to get the ball rolling and missing kos is something it can't really afford to be doing. The blurbs will be getting a lot shorter from here.
See Runo's comments on post #150. I agree with the sentiment but I am not sold on :ditto: being A-/A quite yet. Near the top of B+ is high enough for now. I can easily see myself raising it in the future though.
It is uh...worse than in the :koraidon: meta despite it being a balance breaker when balance is the best its ever been. That is a bit of a surprise. It has been a while since i've seen :palkia-origin: do literally much of anything in a game. Its rank is something of a legacy rank as I do believe that small sample sizes are at play as it is still very good into balance if a bit prediction reliant. It is however generally quite bad into HO and Stall.
It has been picking up steam recently though I'm not sure if it is a flavour of the month or if it is genuinely getting better. :air-balloon: DD/STABs/Sub is my perferred set. Fun HO mon that may be able to work on balance.
DD Taunt is a fun HO mon. Nothing really more to say beyond that. Not a fan of CM
Some mons are more viable than their usage suggests and :lunala: has been one of them for 3 generations now. Bulky sets softcheck/counter aa lot of things.
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:choice-specs: is a scary and underrated breaker. :power-herb: is a theorymon I can see working but have never used or run into.
It is slightly higher than :chansey: because I've seen it work on a couople of fat balances / semistalls though can be taken as an indication of my views on stall as a whole. S+ on stall C+ rank at best off of it
B
B+ but worse. Can you tell I'm getting tired?
1. :chansey:
2. :ferrothorn:
3. :gothitelle:
4. :shuckle:
5. :lucario-mega:
6. :grimmsnarl:
7. :dondozo:
8. :magearna:
It has one viable set, but that viable set is a lynchpin of stall and its ability stave off special threats while not crumpling to some weaker physical hits is invaluable. If you're building stall for the first time fat:kyogre-primal: will make you learn very quickly why you do not drop confide. :gothitelle: food though.
I built with it recently and it surprised me at how hard it was to actually get it do actually do anything. If I hadn't used it and tried to build a few teams with it last week I'd have had probably had it above :zekrom:. :ferrothorn: has the biggest issue with 4MSS of any mon I've ever used. You have a hazard, usually spikes, and leech seed. In those last two slots it wants 3 of Protect, Power Whip, Knock Off, Gyro Ball, and Protect. I believe it still fits well on the right team. I just am not the one to build that team.
Usage =/= viability the pokemon. :gothitelle: isn't used because whilst good it is not fun to use. It is matchup fish the pokemon. Against offensive teams you may as well be playing 5v6. Againist anything else though there is no mon that impacts the way you play the game. It makes :blissey: viable because of :shed-shell:. It rarely needs to remove more than one mon to do its job. I don't believe anyone that says they enjoy using :gothitelle: on ladder because any reasonable person will get bored after an hour or two
:mental-herb: <-- a picture is worth a thousand words. It is a much better webs setter than :smeargle: thanks to its ability to gaurentee that they get up. It is your job to keep both the offensive pressure and the hazards up.
I don't like it. I don't respect it. It has its place on webs though. Ocassionally it will get the goob nut off.
The third screen really is that valuable. I'm not particularly high on :deoxys-speed: as a screen setter, largely because it is very rarely getting that third screen for a sweep after your team has been weakened. It being so low isn't because :grimmsnarl: is bad at its job, but because I don't believe screens are in a great place right now.
That is a fat fucking fish - everyone at some point
Your team needs some way to deal with :dondozo: and friends or it is most likely bad. Please stop using this on fat balance (or don't free points are always nice) it is bad. It needs the support provided by stall otherwise its weaknesses are too exploitable. I've been told it is replacable with :ditto: on stall otherwise it would be next to :chansey:.
Akin to :chansey: it has a singular set. If you want to do some akin to the setup cheese use cosmic power meteor beam :eternatus:. At least that that has to be crit to die instead of wasting a tera and dying because it takes too long to boost up. It has a unique defensive profile in the tier that is incredibly valuable. Being an ironclad defensive answer to :xerneas: and :life-orb::yveltal: is amazing even if it doesn't do much beyond that. Heart Swap + Aromatherapy is a hell of drug. Fleur cannon isn't worth the 5% chip on the :groudon-primal: coming in. Run volt switch and make a double.
B-
I'm still tired. B- but worse
1. :chi-yu:
2. :diancie-mega:
3. :blissey:
4. :flutter-mane:
5. :landorus:
Only should be used on webs. Should only use NP :darkinium-z:. Do that and it'll be fine. Has a little bit of set variety depending on what you want it to do. The 40 def evs on some sets do something worthwhile that I can't remember
Rarely come across it but every time I do I always wonder how I forget how much of an absolute pain in the ass it is to switch into
:gothitelle:. That is all.
Well predictably this has fallen off since the :koraidon: ban. I've seen it twice since then I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt, but I wouldn't be shocked to see this fall even further. At the same time, I wouldn't be shocked to see a resurgence if someone wants to build some teams around it.
It is actually really hard for a lot of balances to switch around. Knock/Rock Slide / Earth Power/ X
C

C+

Mons that require a lot of support to do their role or are niche options on a particular playstyle
1. :smeargle:
2. :kingambit:
3. :kyurem-black:
Definitely the worst dedicated lead these days but is still a bit annoying. It is still viable even if largely outclassed
Turns out +2 tera dark sucker punch still hurts in ubers. It definitely is not a great mon but it will fit on a few bulkier squads. Havn't seen pursuit on it yet but it'll probably work.
It didn't gain anything new besides fling nugget. Generally a wrose :zekrom: but it has its place on some HO squads.
C
Took out enough mons that it did not feel worthwhile making a C- tier. Beyond that, you know the drill, C+ ranks but worse
1. :tyranitar-mega:
2. :skarmory:
3. :mewtwo-mega-x:
4. :sableye-mega:
Still sits on some physical threats. It can find a home on the right fat balance
We all know its issues. Those havn't changed. We've all lost it it and wondered how that was possible. Taunt/Bulk Up / Low Kick / X is probably the way to go.
Ran into an alright :sableye-mega: stall a couple weeks ago. It has the same issues it always had. Candidate for being unranked

If you've made it to the end thanks for reading and let me know your thoughts! Hope this post inspires some other people to post their own personal VRs. Nothing is set in stone beyond the #1 mon. Hope y'all have a good new year and 2024 brings us a wonderful :xerneas: free metagame (please council).
 

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I woke up to the previous personal VR I thought I'd make my own for the end of the year. So these are the Bumboclaat 2023 Natdex Ubers VR.
Wonderful post. I love your arguments and how detailed they are.

Primal Groudon is S+, nothing much to say as it is still as good as ever.

I don't necessarily disagree with your reasoning but this doesn't scream S rank to me, let alone 2nd best mon in the tier. When was the last time you lost against Ho-Oh?

I personally value how threatening a Pokemon is in the team builder and when facing it more. I never had to think outside the box just to fit a Ho-Oh check, unlike Zygarde-C or Xerneas. At most you can tweak some movesets (e.g. Wild Charge Zacian, Facade Salamence [I will come back on that], Knock Off Necrozma-DM). If you lose against it, chances are that your team already loses to a bunch of other threats.

I also find that a lot of people slot Defog Ho-Oh and call it a day, when smart teams will take advantage of Ho-Oh defogging and general lack of versatility (unless CB Ho-Oh, it's decent) to make progress.

That's not to say Ho-Oh is a bad Pokemon, it's top tier and often the first line of defense against a bunch of threats, but I would rank it below both Eternatus and Zygarde-C, same ranking as Xerneas at S-.

Yes Eternatus is firmly S, though I get the impression that it is still underexplored. Pressure alongside the general lack of PP in the Uber metagame is incredible. While it definitely suffers from the Recover PP nerf, it can still beat the standard Ho-Oh set by depleting its Defog PP unless Ho-Oh can fit Brave Bird at the cost of being less effective against the rest of the metagame. Gothitelle+Meteor Beam is goated. Toxic Spikes is good against teams without a poison type but falls flat against stall, and I hate using non max speed Eternatus as I like to outspeed Marshadow and Ultra Necrozma.

I firmly believe Zygarde-C is an S threat. The amount of support it provides through checking the best mon in the tier alongside its ability to handicap the opposing team with Glare while setting up is unparalleled. This is where the difference lies between Zygarde-C and the other Pokemon I consider S- in Ho-Oh, Zacian-C and Xerneas. It is both hard to check long term and provides support by spreading paralysis, letting it fit in any team ranging from stall to HO. Standard Ho-Oh is not offensively/long-term threatening, while Xerneas has to be preserved in good condition if you want to set-up and sweep with it, diminishing its defensive prowess. Zacian-C is the best speed control in the whole tier but doesn't have the versatility that Eternatus and Zygarde-C have.

1. :Arceus::Earth-Plate:
2. :kyogre-primal:
3. :arceus::dread-plate:
4. :yveltal:
5. :necrozma-ultra:
Solid ranking here. I used to criticize Primal Kyogre but it is truly great, especially the defensive set as you said. I even agree with the ordering, except for the fact that

Is A+ above Ultra Necrozma for me. It's too easy fitting it in a team, as it only need three different moves to function: Dragon Dance, Roost, and a normal (flying) move of your choice. You can even run both Double Edge/Return and Facade on the same set if you want, as a boosted attack hits hard enough even on resisted hits (Zacian-C [this takes a lot], Necrozma-DM and... that's it). Facade Salamence is also goated against stall teams, as you can hard switch (don't be too transparent about having Facade though) on Arceus Dark, Chansey, Ho-Oh or Giratina and start wreaking havoc. Regarding nature and EV I like a bit of bulk on Mega Salamence, and I don't think 252+ Adamant is necessary and you can afford to move some EV to speed and bulk. It is basically the only Mega worth using aside from Mega Mewtwo Y, so it doesn't have much competition either. It is also a great switch-in to the best Pokemon in the tier. Lastly, you don't build around Defog Salamence, but you'd rather build a team and fit Defog on Salamence if you don't have other options, as Salamence realistically has a free moveslot. These qualities make it a solid A+ Pokemon in my eyes and it is certainly better than the whole A rank.

I more or less agree with your other nominations in the lower rankings. I think Giratina-O and Magearna have a lot of potential in the tier. You rank Kingambit C+ but I think Urshifu is a better Pokemon in all aspects. I like the Mega Tyranitar nomination, and it gives a team more options against Yveltal and Ultra Necrozma.

I will edit the post with better formatting when I can.
 
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bumboclaat

Primal Groudon used Overheat
is a Community Contributor
Wonderful post. I love your arguments and how detailed they are.

Primal Groudon is S+, nothing much to say as it is still as good as ever.



I don't necessarily disagree with your reasoning but this doesn't scream S rank to me, let alone 2nd best mon in the tier. When was the last time you lost against Ho-Oh?

I personally value how threatening a Pokemon is in the team builder and when facing it more. I never had to think outside the box just to fit a Ho-Oh check, unlike Zygarde-C or Xerneas. At most you can tweak some movesets (e.g. Wild Charge Zacian, Facade Salamence [I will come back on that], Knock Off Necrozma-DM). If you lose against it, chances are that your team already loses to a bunch of other threats.

I also find that a lot of people slot Defog Ho-Oh and call it a day, when smart teams will take advantage of Ho-Oh defogging and general lack of versatility (unless CB Ho-Oh, it's decent) to make progress.

That's not to say Ho-Oh is a bad Pokemon, it's top tier and often the first line of defense against a bunch of threats, but I would rank it below both Eternatus and Zygarde-C, same ranking as Xerneas at S-.


Yes Eternatus is firmly S, though I get the impression that it is still underexplored. Pressure alongside the general lack of PP in the Uber metagame is incredible. While it definitely suffers from the Recover PP nerf, it can still beat the standard Ho-Oh set by depleting its Defog PP unless Ho-Oh can fit Brave Bird at the cost of being less effective against the rest of the metagame. Gothitelle+Meteor Beam is goated. Toxic Spikes is good against teams without a poison type but falls flat against stall, and I hate using non max speed Eternatus as I like to outspeed Marshadow and Ultra Necrozma.


I firmly believe Zygarde-C is an S threat. The amount of support it provides through checking the best mon in the tier alongside its ability to handicap the opposing team with Glare while setting up is unparalleled. This is where the difference lies between Zygarde-C and the other Pokemon I consider S- in Ho-Oh, Zacian-C and Xerneas. It is both hard to check long term and provides support by spreading paralysis, letting it fit in any team ranging from stall to HO. Standard Ho-Oh is not offensively/long-term threatening, while Xerneas has to be preserved in good condition if you want to set-up and sweep with it, diminishing its defensive prowess. Zacian-C is the best speed control in the whole tier but doesn't have the versatility that Eternatus and Zygarde-C have.


Solid ranking here. I used to criticize Primal Kyogre but it is truly great, especially the defensive set as you said. I even agree with the ordering, except for the fact that


Is A+ above Ultra Necrozma for me. It's too easy fitting it in a team, as it only need three different moves to function: Dragon Dance, Roost, and a normal (flying) move of your choice. You can even run both Double Edge/Return and Facade on the same set if you want, as a boosted attack hits hard enough even on resisted hits (Zacian-C [this takes a lot], Necrozma-DM and... that's it). Facade Salamence is also goated against stall teams, as you can hard switch (don't be too transparent about having Facade though) on Arceus Dark, Chansey, Ho-Oh or Giratina and start wreaking havoc. Regarding nature and EV I like a bit of bulk on Mega Salamence, and I don't think 252+ Adamant is necessary and you can afford to move some EV to speed and bulk. It is basically the only Mega worth using aside from Mega Mewtwo Y, so it doesn't have much competition either. It is also a great switch-in to the best Pokemon in the tier. Lastly, you don't build around Defog Salamence, but you'd rather build a team and fit Defog on Salamence if you don't have other options, as Salamence realistically has a free moveslot. These qualities make it a solid A+ Pokemon in my eyes and it is certainly better than the whole A rank.

I more or less agree with your other nominations in the lower rankings. I think Giratina-O and Magearna have a lot of potential in the tier. You rank Kingambit C+ but I think Urshifu is a better Pokemon in all aspects. I like the Mega Tyranitar nomination, and it gives a team more options against Yveltal and Ultra Necrozma.

I will edit the post with better formatting when I can.
Thanks for a detailed reply. I'll read through everything as I quote it, I know there are definitely a few mons at least higher up where there are going to be some disagreements. Hope you had a good new years.

I don't necessarily disagree with your reasoning but this doesn't scream S rank to me, let alone 2nd best mon in the tier. When was the last time you lost against Ho-Oh?

I personally value how threatening a Pokemon is in the team builder and when facing it more. I never had to think outside the box just to fit a Ho-Oh check, unlike Zygarde-C or Xerneas. At most you can tweak some movesets (e.g. Wild Charge Zacian, Facade Salamence [I will come back on that], Knock Off Necrozma-DM). If you lose against it, chances are that your team already loses to a bunch of other threats.

I also find that a lot of people slot Defog Ho-Oh and call it a day, when smart teams will take advantage of Ho-Oh defogging and general lack of versatility (unless CB Ho-Oh, it's decent) to make progress.

That's not to say Ho-Oh is a bad Pokemon, it's top tier and often the first line of defense against a bunch of threats, but I would rank it below both Eternatus and Zygarde-C, same ranking as Xerneas at S-.
I definitely do value an offensive threat, but :ho-oh: in my opinion is really the mon that makes the tier playable. :zacian-crowned::xerneas::necrozma-ultra::groudon-primal::zygarde-complete: are the scariest offensive threats in the tier at the moment for me. :salamence-mega: can be close but doesn't have quite the consistency nor is close to as splashable as the top 5. Other than :groudon-primal: :ho-oh: very softchecks :necrozma-ultra:, checks :zygarde-complete::zacian-crowned:, and very hard checks :xerneas:. There are a lot of moveslots in this tier that are mainly there to get past :ho-oh:. I.e. :xerneas: is never running hp rock, CM:arceus: is never running power gem, same w/ :flutter-mane: if that still exists, :zacian-crowned: can consider dropping wild charge fairly easily. It also fogs incredibly easily. :ho-oh: can easily fill many of the defensive duties every non-ho requires and is as important a part of the defensive meta as :zacian-crowned::xerneas: are to the offensive meta.

:ho-oh: also is far from passive. Switching into toxic + sacred fire is something very few mons really want to do. :xerneas: really hates taking damage before it wants to sweep unless it needs to. :zacian-crowned: obviously fears switching into sacred fire since it'll be left near death and that 50% chance of a burn is pretty horrible. Brave bird is great as well as 120 BP + 130 base attack still chunks things nicely uninvested, though I find it hard to fit unless you have :necrozma-dusk-mane:. Offensive sets also smack fairly hard and can still check most of what they need to check as well.

:ho-oh: isn't something you lose to outright because it is such a big part of the meta that the meta is already centralized around dealing with it. The tweaks you've made are felt in its impact. As I mentioned earlier, things like hp rock, and tera electric thunderbolt on :xerneas: are purely for :ho-oh:. For what it is worth, offensive :mega-salamence: generally wants to run to facade anyways to help v fatter squads. :zacian-crowned: mainly runs wild charge for :ho-oh:. Sure it hits :kyogre-primal: fairly hard but so would close combat and the slot can be used for valuable coverage.

When I look at the defensive utility for :zacian-crowned: it extends to well it either really really doesn't want to come in, you're doubling it in, or hoping that :yveltal: doesn't have heat wave. Its typing and bulk are decent, but uninvested it gets hit hard by a lot of things. Also losing that +1 is a massive pain. Defensive :xerneas: sets can switch into stuff, but it is s- because of geomancy and that wants to preserve health so it can tank a hit from mons it doesn't ohko such as blades from :groudon-primal:.

I understand the argument for putting :eternatus: over :ho-oh: and i don't think they are that far off. As I said in my initial post while :eternatus: fits on nearly every team it also can be replaced on a lot of them and that splashability puts :ho-oh: slightly higher in my eyes. Start with :groudon-primal::ho-oh: and you can build any type of BO/Balance that will be good imo. :eternatus: is that mon that comes afterwards that nearly always can fit into whatever the role the team wants it to do. At the end of the day if someone puts :eternatus: above :ho-oh: I disagree at the moment but don't think they are wrong. They are very close.

Last, I do think :zygarde-complete: is definitely better than :xerneas::zacian-crowned: at the moment, but felt it is a little closer to :xerneas::zacian-crowned: than :eternatus:. It is an amazing offensive/defensive mon, but at the same time good counterplay is available to every style of team whether that be an outright counter like :dondozo: on stall,
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:ho-oh: + fat :kyogre-primal: among other things on balances, and just outoffencing it on BO/HO before it has the time it needs to set up. All of these options are naturally common and good on the teamstyles they find themselves on. A good team barring some very nasty glare hax is going to contain it naturally to a reasonable degree. It has to work harder for its sweeps than :zacian-crowned::xerneas: but it offers immense defensive utility and often a good midgame presence. I can see putting :zygarde-complete: in s, but not above :eternatus:.
Yes Eternatus is firmly S, though I get the impression that it is still underexplored. Pressure alongside the general lack of PP in the Uber metagame is incredible. While it definitely suffers from the Recover PP nerf, it can still beat the standard Ho-Oh set by depleting its Defog PP unless Ho-Oh can fit Brave Bird at the cost of being less effective against the rest of the metagame. Gothitelle+Meteor Beam is goated. Toxic Spikes is good against teams without a poison type but falls flat against stall, and I hate using non max speed Eternatus as I like to outspeed Marshadow and Ultra Necrozma.
Largely agree with that you've said. I've never used :eternatus: with :gothitelle: and that sounds sinister. Yeah it definitely feels the recovery nerf on defensive sets. I've been using :power-herb::eternatus: a lot more as an offensive mon on balance and it is so much fun when the moves hit. The coverage is amazing, also when fire blast hits. Yeah it isn't worth being outspeed by :marshadow: since you can revenge it fairly easily. It flops a bit into stall on a lot of sets but absorbing t spikes, seismic toss pp, ect means it can play role at least. Just an all around good mon.
I firmly believe Zygarde-C is an S threat. The amount of support it provides through checking the best mon in the tier alongside its ability to handicap the opposing team with Glare while setting up is unparalleled. This is where the difference lies between Zygarde-C and the other Pokemon I consider S- in Ho-Oh, Zacian-C and Xerneas. It is both hard to check long term and provides support by spreading paralysis, letting it fit in any team ranging from stall to HO. Standard Ho-Oh is not offensively/long-term threatening, while Xerneas has to be preserved in good condition if you want to set-up and sweep with it, diminishing its defensive prowess. Zacian-C is the best speed control in the whole tier but doesn't have the versatility that Eternatus and Zygarde-C have.
I went into this a bit above and agree with everything you said. I just think in the post :koraidon: meta it feels easier than ever to have a decent answer in the builder. In some ways, suffering from its own success. I love :zygarde-complete: but any good team is going to have some measure of counterplay. I've used it a lot and the biggest downside is how long it can take to get its thing going at times. Physically it is fine, but it does not take strong special attacks well at all untransformed. :kyogre-primal: being more popular than ever isn't great for it as offensive variants will boost and/or OHKO and defensive variants will likely be paired with something else that can decently defensively check :zygarde-complete:. When I look at a mon like :ho-oh: it suceeds in spite of its flaws. It is still going fog, it is still going to phase :xerneas: despite a siginficant portion of the meta geared towards getting past it. :eternatus:'s biggest issue is bringing the right set. Sometimes it'll flop, but it'll always have defensive utlity ala :zygarde-complete:. However the offensive :eternatus: sets can pop off with just one free turn compared to :zygarde-complete: which often needs 3+ turns to set up. Trapper sets are good, but similar to demon :eternatus:. That is what puts it in at least below :eternatus for me. If there was something between s and s- i'd have :zygarde-complete: in there. During the :koraidon: meta I thought :zygarde-complete: was better than :eternatus: but it is a lot easier to fit counterplay these days.

I agree with your takes on :xerneas: and :zacian-crowned:. They both have that drawback of not wanting to get on the field prematurely which means they both little defensive utility. They are otherwise close to perfect mons and would be at least S rank otherwise. Agreed with glare as that alone will give you some wins and can act as a pseudo speed control on some teams. Strong special attackers just feel more common currently than they did at the time of say the tera or :koraidon: suspects and that is something that :zygarde-complete: doesn't like. That is something barring great glares and a lot of para hax it is never going to overcome and that does require some team support. It also absolutely loathes taunt:arceus: which has died down a little bit on ladder for whatever reason, but that is still a fantastic set.
Solid ranking here. I used to criticize Primal Kyogre but it is truly great, especially the defensive set as you said. I even agree with the ordering, except for the fact that

Is A+ above Ultra Necrozma for me. It's too easy fitting it in a team, as it only need three different moves to function: Dragon Dance, Roost, and a normal (flying) move of your choice. You can even run both Double Edge/Return and Facade on the same set if you want, as a boosted attack hits hard enough even on resisted hits (Zacian-C [this takes a lot], Necrozma-DM and... that's it). Facade Salamence is also goated against stall teams, as you can hard switch (don't be too transparent about having Facade though) on Arceus Dark, Chansey, Ho-Oh or Giratina and start wreaking havoc. Regarding nature and EV I like a bit of bulk on Mega Salamence, and I don't think 252+ Adamant is necessary and you can afford to move some EV to speed and bulk. It is basically the only Mega worth using aside from Mega Mewtwo Y, so it doesn't have much competition either. It is also a great switch-in to the best Pokemon in the tier. Lastly, you don't build around Defog Salamence, but you'd rather build a team and fit Defog on Salamence if you don't have other options, as Salamence realistically has a free moveslot. These qualities make it a solid A+ Pokemon in my eyes and it is certainly better than the whole A rank.
So I hope that I am answering this correctly but :necrozma-ultra: is held back somewhat by not being able to run :necrozma-dusk-mane:. This is the same the other way around as :necrozma-dusk-mane: would be an A+ mon otherwise in my opinion. I agree that it is very easy to fit on a team and is very scary just at +1 defensively, but not being able to properly use :necrozma-dusk-mane: is a real drawback. During the :koraidon: meta it was middling for its standards largely because it was complete :koraidon: food if defensive. It still checked important things defensively, but yeah being complete setup fodder was not great. With :koraidon: banned defensive sets are able to check what they used to. Being pressured to run earthquake is not great, but with that it fully answers and will both trade and pop the tera of :xerneas: and without it
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:zacian-crowned: beats it unless
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:necrozma-dusk-mane: but you often won't want to pop that.
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CC does OHKO after rocks at +3 but is relatively easy to deal with. I've enjoyed using defensive:groudon-primal:dd
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:necrozma-dusk-mane::ho-oh: +3 balance recently. Defensive sets still check what they need to and can easily fit earthquake which is also nice for a hit v :groudon-primal:. It does require team support as :ho-oh: is a nuisance, but the teams it is going to find itself on will be able to do that anyways. I'm testing a few teams with offensive DD right now and the results have been good and it is fun to use. Outspeeds non priority at +2 which is not difficult to get if you want to pop your tera. You do go from being an answer to things defensively to softchecking them though. It is very fun on BO especially v HO.

The mega slot however, yeah..., it is entirely uncontested and I can't think I've ever built a team where I have wanted two of them. So yeah :salamence-mega: is an amazing mon offensively, no doubt about that. On most teams you find it on it'll want facade anyways as it is definitely its best option on the types of teams it fits on for the reasons you've outlined. The issue for me is :salamence-mega: outside of HO. It definitely works on BO / Balance structures but isn't splashable. HO doesn't care at all about the defensive flaws of :salamence-mega: and BO works around them to a reasonable degree. I havn't seen a lot of :salamence-mega: BO, but the ones I have seen looked pretty good. As a shameless shill, if anyone is interested :giratina-origin: is currently our teambuilding mon of the week so if you're interested in building a :salamence-mega: BO now is a great time!

Balance is where you do start running into issues. Yes it is a :groudon-primal: switchin, but this is more tied to the teams it finds itself on than :salamence-mega: actually being a good :groudon-primal: switchin. Getting off that imtidate is always nice and it only really dislikes rock coverage on that switchin. If it gets toxic'd great, more damage, it won't take significant chip from rocks, and it can scare the :groudon-primal: out potentially. The problem is on balance is that whatever it runs to deal with :groudon-primal: is generally going to have to switch in at least a few times throughout the match. On the initial switchin yeah it isn't going to be taking rocks damage, but on every other switch in it might which either forces roosts or limits its potential wallbreaking/sweeping prowess. Balance and some BO's is where you have the defensive backbone to properly support a rocks weak wallbreaker so :salamence-mega: faces a lot more competition because those traits such as absorbing status are already handled by your defensive backbones. So balance can afford to run more immediately threating rocks weak breakers. :Choice-band::calyrex-ice: and :choice-band::rayquaza: are two I've had a blast using recently. They both slice through fat in their own ways and trade v more offensive structures as :salamence-mega: often does.

The issue isn't :mega-salamence: being unable to keep up with the A+ mons but actually fitting on a team as R8 mentioned a few posts ago. It is amazing and incredibly easy to slot it in on HO. It is still very good on BO, but isn't a staple in the way it is on HO. Balance and fat balance are often going to run something else whilst it obviously does not currently have a place on stall. A + mons in my mind are mons that are generally splashable on most teams that might have some downsides but are often naturally covered in the builder. For me mons in the A tier, at least in Ubers tiers, are where you probably should consider that mons flaws when building or you might have a major blind spot. When I think about :salamence-mega: on more offensive structures it is a mon that finds itself at the top or 2nd in A+. However, off those teams it does drop off a lot. The issue I run into is to what degree splashability is important. Whatever someone personally settles on is going to be unique, but it is something that I value quite a bit. If a mon isn't splashable it needs to make up for that significantly. A mon like :zacian-crowned: has very little defensive utility and some 4MSS. Depending on what moveset you choose you then decide what to partner it with on offensive structures or how to support it on balance ones. This shows in game as every team needs some way to deal with it so it isn't often going to sweep on its own. Despite that it is still such an offensive behemoth that it is is easily S- to me.

The problem with :salamence-mega: is that it doesn't fit on that many teams. Something doesn't have to fit well on HO or Stall, but it generally needs to fit well on one in addition to three other styles for me to consider it splashable and :salamence-mega: isn't threatening enough to overcome that for me. That is the largest reason it isn't A+ for me. A very similar mon :necrozma-ultra:, in that they are both fast scary breakers does fit well on balance and BO and can get past anything but :arceus::dread-plate: with what coverage it decides to run. The only reason it is not at the top of of A+ or even higher (it is as offensively scary as :xerneas::zacian-crowned: to me) is that not being able to use regular :necrozma-dusk-mane:, a very good mon in its own right. This is a real flaw and a lot of bulkier teams would much rather have the defensive qualities of the base form. :necrozma-dusk-mane: also has its own offensive sets which differentiate itself from :necrozma-ultra: which some offensive teams would perfer to use as well.

Regarding EVs, I have not used it a ton but yeah they are flexible. It is just a shame that 120 is not a great speed tier for what :salamence-mega: wants to do. Risking :arceus: speedties is never fun but you can drop a lot and still outspeed what you need at +1 at least. I havn't experimented with it a ton so I'm not incredibly knowledgable about specific ev spreads beyond what is on the dex.

Just relooking at the A+ tier I don't think I would put it above any of the mons there. Outside of :arceus::dread-plate: all of the A+ have significantly higher defensive utility than :salamence-mega: even on offensive sets. They are all generally more splashable whilst all but :necrozma-ultra: have great defensive sets as well. As I said in my initial post, I'd can see someone ranking it anywhere from A+ to A- and I'd likely find their reasoning reasonable. For me the lack of splashability as well as some of its flaws put it below A+. It is still an incredibly scary threat that should be accounted for. Also that is fair about defog as well.

Wonderful post. I love your arguments and how detailed they are.

Primal Groudon is S+, nothing much to say as it is still as good as ever.



I don't necessarily disagree with your reasoning but this doesn't scream S rank to me, let alone 2nd best mon in the tier. When was the last time you lost against Ho-Oh?

I personally value how threatening a Pokemon is in the team builder and when facing it more. I never had to think outside the box just to fit a Ho-Oh check, unlike Zygarde-C or Xerneas. At most you can tweak some movesets (e.g. Wild Charge Zacian, Facade Salamence [I will come back on that], Knock Off Necrozma-DM). If you lose against it, chances are that your team already loses to a bunch of other threats.

I also find that a lot of people slot Defog Ho-Oh and call it a day, when smart teams will take advantage of Ho-Oh defogging and general lack of versatility (unless CB Ho-Oh, it's decent) to make progress.

That's not to say Ho-Oh is a bad Pokemon, it's top tier and often the first line of defense against a bunch of threats, but I would rank it below both Eternatus and Zygarde-C, same ranking as Xerneas at S-.


Yes Eternatus is firmly S, though I get the impression that it is still underexplored. Pressure alongside the general lack of PP in the Uber metagame is incredible. While it definitely suffers from the Recover PP nerf, it can still beat the standard Ho-Oh set by depleting its Defog PP unless Ho-Oh can fit Brave Bird at the cost of being less effective against the rest of the metagame. Gothitelle+Meteor Beam is goated. Toxic Spikes is good against teams without a poison type but falls flat against stall, and I hate using non max speed Eternatus as I like to outspeed Marshadow and Ultra Necrozma.


I firmly believe Zygarde-C is an S threat. The amount of support it provides through checking the best mon in the tier alongside its ability to handicap the opposing team with Glare while setting up is unparalleled. This is where the difference lies between Zygarde-C and the other Pokemon I consider S- in Ho-Oh, Zacian-C and Xerneas. It is both hard to check long term and provides support by spreading paralysis, letting it fit in any team ranging from stall to HO. Standard Ho-Oh is not offensively/long-term threatening, while Xerneas has to be preserved in good condition if you want to set-up and sweep with it, diminishing its defensive prowess. Zacian-C is the best speed control in the whole tier but doesn't have the versatility that Eternatus and Zygarde-C have.


Solid ranking here. I used to criticize Primal Kyogre but it is truly great, especially the defensive set as you said. I even agree with the ordering, except for the fact that


Is A+ above Ultra Necrozma for me. It's too easy fitting it in a team, as it only need three different moves to function: Dragon Dance, Roost, and a normal (flying) move of your choice. You can even run both Double Edge/Return and Facade on the same set if you want, as a boosted attack hits hard enough even on resisted hits (Zacian-C [this takes a lot], Necrozma-DM and... that's it). Facade Salamence is also goated against stall teams, as you can hard switch (don't be too transparent about having Facade though) on Arceus Dark, Chansey, Ho-Oh or Giratina and start wreaking havoc. Regarding nature and EV I like a bit of bulk on Mega Salamence, and I don't think 252+ Adamant is necessary and you can afford to move some EV to speed and bulk. It is basically the only Mega worth using aside from Mega Mewtwo Y, so it doesn't have much competition either. It is also a great switch-in to the best Pokemon in the tier. Lastly, you don't build around Defog Salamence, but you'd rather build a team and fit Defog on Salamence if you don't have other options, as Salamence realistically has a free moveslot. These qualities make it a solid A+ Pokemon in my eyes and it is certainly better than the whole A rank.

I more or less agree with your other nominations in the lower rankings. I think Giratina-O and Magearna have a lot of potential in the tier. You rank Kingambit C+ but I think Urshifu is a better Pokemon in all aspects. I like the Mega Tyranitar nomination, and it gives a team more options against Yveltal and Ultra Necrozma.

I will edit the post with better formatting when I can.
I do think :giratina-origin: is underexplored as well. Aslo another chance to promote our teambuilding comp as it is our mon of the week for those who only read the beginning and ends of posts. I think :magearna: is a shitmon that has a proper place within the tier, beinga good option on fat balance builds. That being said, I really do not like the mon though I acknowledge it is real. It is so passive and so freely invites :groudon-primal: for free amongst many other mons. It has so many options that you think oh that would be interesting and then you remember it really doesn't have a free moveslot. Aroma and Heart Swap are practically mandatory. You want to actually check the :yveltal: you're supposed to be checking so you really don't want to drop fleur cannon. Then you have the last move that on paper is amazing. Volt is the best option, but things like spikes because spikes are great or pain split to last forever against fat are great as well. The problem is no matter what :magearna: does it is always going to be incredibly passive and exploitable. Any boosting sets are done better by multiple other mons. Everytime I run into a double dance set demon:eternatus: would have been much better.

:kingambit: was very spammed by a couple of players and certainly should not Ubers if it was tiered by usage. It is however, viable and usable as a late game cleaner on some fatter teams. :blackglasses:
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+2 sucker is nuclear and is going to still absolutely chunk even defensive mons. It is the sort of mon that will put in some work if the team puts in a lot of resources into facilitating it. :urshifu: doesn't fit the same profile though it hits hard it is significantly less bulky, threatened by a lot more, reliant on :choice-band: which is a huge drawback, lets in mons more freely, and doesn't really punish fat mons in the vein as :kingambit:.

To end this last post, yeah knock off gave :tyranitar-mega: a genuine niche on stall teams, best illustrated on hamsters ttar stall. Personally, every stall team needs at least some way to decently deal with :life-orb::yveltal: or it is bad. It is common and deadly enough to defensive mons in general that any stall team without at least some counterplay is most likely bad. :tyranitar-mega: providing that + knock being amazing in the stall mirror is a genuine niche. I've seen some people trying to get it to work on fat balance it but has been horrible everytime i've run into it. When I think about that you can do w/ :urshifu: It is pretty similar to a lot d tier mons that are unviable. It will have games that can put in work, but so does everything and you could replace it with a lot of things that are upgrades.
 
Thanks for a detailed reply.
Thanks for your detailed reply as well and wish you the best for this year.

Re: Ho-Oh
:ho-oh: in my opinion is really the mon that makes the tier playable
It's the most splashable defensive Pokemon for sure but plenty of teams work without Ho-Oh, so I will challenge your claim. It provides a decent initial switch-in to Zygarde-C as it doesn't mind paralysis or Toxic as much as other Pokemon but I won't consider it as a check as it loses in the mid-game and if Tera Grass still loses long term.

The thing is that you can prepare well for Primal Groudon, Zygarde-C, Eternatus and still be somehow weak against some sets, some Tera or parahax, letting them make progress no matter what. If you build your team well against Ho-Oh, then the opposing Ho-Oh and its team will be hard-pressed all game (e.g. Arceus-Ground with Rock move + Xerneas, just as an example).

Re: Mega-Salamence
Balance and some BO's is where you have the defensive backbone to properly support a rocks weak wallbreaker so :salamence-mega: faces a lot more competition because those traits such as absorbing status are already handled by your defensive backbones. So balance can afford to run more immediately threating rocks weak breakers. :Choice-band::calyrex-ice: and :choice-band::rayquaza: are two I've had a blast using recently. They both slice through fat in their own ways and trade v more offensive structures as :salamence-mega: often does.
The difference is that Mega Salamence is a sweeper which is very difficult to stop at +1/+1. Both Calyrex-I and especially Rayquaza gets forced out. Lots of games are decided by whether you can click DD or not, and you will get that DD if you build the team around it. Unlike Necrozma-Ultra, it can hardly be revenge killed thanks to that sweet base 130 defense and neutrality to all priority moves commonly seen in the metagame. Note that most of what you said regarding team style also applies to Ultra Necrozma, as without bulk investment you can hardly afford to take an attack as Necrozma-DM and then set-up later in the game.
Just relooking at the A+ tier I don't think I would put it above any of the mons there.
I put it bottom of A+, it is considerably more threatening than the things in A.

:arceus::pixie-plate:

Speaking of A, I don't think Arceus-Fairy belongs there anymore. Koraidon was a big reason why this thing was good but now inviting the likes of Primal-Groudon, Ho-Oh, Eternatus, Primal Kyogre, Zacian-C and Necrozma-DM is not worth it anymore. Gets statused by Zygarde-C and suddenly the matchup vs, say, Yveltal becomes incredibly shaky. Seriously, just look at the list. Sure, some of them can be crippled by status but this is like every top-tier threat in the metagame. It remains the best LO Yveltal check but yeah drop that thing to A- and I'd argue B+.

:deoxys-attack:

Its versatility and unpredictableness makes me think it deserves a higher ranking, don't know if it's worth A or not, but I prefer it to Mega Mewtwo Y as it is more immediately threatening. It's not like Mega Mewtwo Y is taking any hits anyway.

Re: Kingambit

It is a shitmon anyway, so I won't comment much but Urshifu can also opt for SD sets which hit considerably harder than Kingambit with Wicked Blow vs Kowtow Cleave, while outspeeding base 90s, while keeping a very strong Sucker Punch versus faster Pokemon that are often frailer. Still not worth using though (I tried in the 1600 range), but I'll oppose Kingambit's nomination.

S+
1. :groudon-primal:

S
1. :zygarde-complete:
2. :eternatus:

S-
1. :xerneas:
2. :ho-oh:
3. :zacian-crowned:
4. :arceus::earth-plate:

Xerneas is very threatening but I believe there's enough difference between the S ranks and Xerneas because most teams naturally have 2 checks, sometimes 3. Won't be opposed to S, though. Arceus-Ground remains in S-, DD Groundium, with Taunt/Recover as the last option still wins games alone, not to mention the CM variants which demand different checks.

A+
1. :kyogre-primal:
2. :arceus::dread-plate:
3. :yveltal:
4. :salamence-mega:
5. :necrozma-ultra:

I would really really want to put Yveltal on the top of A+, LO variants are just amazing, with almost no decent switch-ins. The first 3 are more or less comparable, so I went with bumboclaat's ordering in the end.

A
1. :necrozma-dusk-mane:
2. :marshadow:
3. :arceus:

A-
1. :deoxys-attack:
2. :deoxys-speed:
3. :giratina-origin:
4. :mewtwo-mega-y:
5. :arceus::splash-plate:
6. :rayquaza:

B+
I don't care much about the ranking below A- ranks in such as centralized metagame but you can put Arceus-Fairy, Palkia-O, Ditto, Zekrom, Gothitelle, Lunala, Calyrex-I, Arceus-Poison and maybe Grimmsnarl there, in whatever order.


Edit: Yes I exaggerated my point about Mewtwo's bulk, not being afraid of support Arceus without Thunder Wave is one big quality and I think A- is a fair ranking, it's just that I prefer Deoxys-A's raw power and coverage most of the time.
 
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bumboclaat

Primal Groudon used Overheat
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Hey thanks for the reply

Personal VR
Figured it would be best to reply to this section first. Don't disagree much of anything here. Obviously we think a few specific mons should move up or down a couple places but other than :deoxys-attack: there isn't really anything I firmly disagree with. S/S- should be some combo of :zygarde::ho-oh::eternatus::zacain-crowned::xerneas::arceus::earth-plate:. I'm aware that I don't have :arceus::earth-plate: there in my VR, but I think it is borderline S- anyways and have no issue with it being S-. Really the only firm opinion I have about S/S- is that :eternatus: should be S. Other than that as long as someone has a reasonable argument for why x mon should be in y place I'll probably be fine with it.

It's the most splashable defensive Pokemon for sure but plenty of teams work without Ho-Oh, so I will challenge your claim. It provides a decent initial switch-in to Zygarde-C as it doesn't mind paralysis or Toxic as much as other Pokemon but I won't consider it as a check as it loses in the mid-game and if Tera Grass still loses long term.

The thing is that you can prepare well for Primal Groudon, Zygarde-C, Eternatus and still be somehow weak against some sets, some Tera or parahax, letting them make progress no matter what. If you build your team well against Ho-Oh, then the opposing Ho-Oh and its team will be hard-pressed all game (e.g. Arceus-Ground with Rock move + Xerneas, just as an example).
I don't think a team working without a specific mon is really a strike against it as this applies to every single mon in the tier except :groudon-primal: which still doesn't fit well on stall. With regard to :ho-oh:/:zygarde: do you mean a counter beause it is certainly a check. Last mon :zygarde: beats :ho-oh: unless you arn't reckless with arrows pp so no disagreement with me there. I view :zygarde: as a mon that is primarily dealt with in the builder, especially compared to the other S/S- mons(trapper variants are something of an exception). Yeah :ho-oh: does not solo :zygarde: in the slightest but :ho-oh: + some other mon you probably want on your team anyways will do the job well enough.

:ho-oh: is still pressure mons to run moves that they don't want to run. :xerneas: is never using hp rock if it were not for :ho-oh:. The same for :arceus: running power gem. Yeah you are probably always going to be weak to some set of one of the top threats which is not generally the same as :ho-oh: though offensive sets are underrated. If you arn't playing stall and even sometimes then I'd argue that it is incredibly hard to prevent :ho-oh: from making progress outside of something like bulky :eternatus:. Not much is loving the risk of toxic or burn. It can also run thunder wave as well. Clearing hazards is also a form of progress.

The difference is that Mega Salamence is a sweeper which is very difficult to stop at +1/+1. Both Calyrex-I and especially Rayquaza gets forced out. Lots of games are decided by whether you can click DD or not, and you will get that DD if you build the team around it. Unlike Necrozma-Ultra, it can hardly be revenge killed thanks to that sweet base 130 defense and neutrality to all priority moves commonly seen in the metagame. Note that most of what you said regarding team style also applies to Ultra Necrozma, as without bulk investment you can hardly afford to take an attack as Necrozma-DM and then set-up later in the game.
I view the counterplay as similar. Yes :necrozma-ultra: will always be revenged by priority, but it also gets more ohkos than :salamence-mega: at +1 to make up for it. Add in a rocks weakness v resitance on the initial switchin as well. I also did take into account that you cannot use :necrozma-dusk-mane:. If it wasn't for that I'd have had :necrozma-ultra: higher. As I said in my initial post, if someone has :salamence-mega: higher that is fine by me.

:arceus::pixie-plate:

Speaking of A, I don't think Arceus-Fairy belongs there anymore. Koraidon was a big reason why this thing was good but now inviting the likes of Primal-Groudon, Ho-Oh, Eternatus, Primal Kyogre, Zacian-C and Necrozma-DM is not worth it anymore. Gets statused by Zygarde-C and suddenly the matchup vs, say, Yveltal becomes incredibly shaky. Seriously, just look at the list. Sure, some of them can be crippled by status but this is like every top-tier threat in the metagame. It remains the best LO Yveltal check but yeah drop that thing to A- and I'd argue B+.
Agreed here. Could be dropped to A-. I think B+ is a bit too much for now but if you asked me in a month again I could agree with that.

:deoxys-attack:

Its versatility and unpredictableness makes me think it deserves a higher ranking, don't know if it's worth A or not, but I prefer it to Mega Mewtwo Y as it is more immediately threatening. It's not like Mega Mewtwo Y is taking any hits anyway.
:mewtwo-mega-y: is at least taking some hits and generally doesn't shiver in fear about doubling in. A big difference for me is how often :deoxys-attack: is switching out after a KO due it being at -2. Holding off on mega evolving does also allow it to tank a neutral physical hit thanks to :mewtwo: having passable phyiscal bulk. It can also live some special hits as well and isn't giving as many free turns for something to set up after claiming its kill.

Re: Kingambit

It is a shitmon anyway, so I won't comment much but Urshifu can also opt for SD sets which hit considerably harder than Kingambit with Wicked Blow vs Kowtow Cleave, while outspeeding base 90s, while keeping a very strong Sucker Punch versus faster Pokemon that are often frailer. Still not worth using though (I tried in the 1600 range), but I'll oppose Kingambit's nomination.
They're both sort of shitmons but supreme overlord makes :kingambit: hit a fair bit harder since neither are coming in often early game. Its bulk and typing will generally let it surve a hit compared to :urshifu:, especially on the special side. It has a small niche at least worthy of C- imo but I didn't put that in my VR. I'd be fine with it in C
 
Since people seem to have been posting their :Calyrex-Ice: sets, I might as well throw my hat into the ring. This is one I've been having some success with.
Calyrex-Ice @ Groundium Z
Ability: As One (Glastrier)
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Glacial Lance
- High Horsepower
- Close Combat
- Trick Room

:Groundium-Z: allows :Calyrex-Ice: to chain kills under Trick Room that it wouldn't normally be able to, the most important targets being :Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: and :Groudon-Primal: both falling most of the time at +1 (max physdef :Groudon-Primal: has a 1/4 chance to live and max physdef :Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: has a 1/8 chance to die). +1 Tectonic Rage deals a good 75% to a max physdef :Kyogre-Primal: as well. At +2, nothing lives a hit (barring :Dondozo:, full health :Lunala:, and terastallization). I chose Close Combat over Seed Bomb to hit :Arceus: and :Arceus-Dark: harder, since Close Combat and :Groundium-Z: hit :Kyogre-Primal: hard enough and I lose to :Dondozo: anyway.

It's been great to see different takes on my favourite uber, from Agility to Choice Band to this. Would also rank it B+ for its power and ability to chain kills in TR, especially with this set.
 
I wanted to share my ricochet Yveltal real quick. I’ve gotten in the top 50 with this on my team. I’m not for sure how impressive that is, but eh…


:Yveltal: @ :Rocky Helmet:
Ability: Dark Aura
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Calm Nature
- Taunt
- Oblivion Wing / Roost
- Knock Off
- Foul Play

With Foul Play and immense Defensive investment, Yveltal completely punishes Physical Setup from :Rayquaza:, :Necrozma ultra:, :Arceus:, :Calyrex Ice:, :Groudon primal:, :Mewtwo Mega X:, :Salamence Mega:, and my favorite, :Zacian Crowned:, via a Tera Steel surprise. Taunt allows Yveltal to stall break and stop :Ho-Oh: and Defensive :Arceus: from recovery. That with Tera Steel allows Yveltal to slowly wear down :Arceus Fairy:. Yveltal also cripples :Marshadow: by rendering the Pokémon’s :Focus Sash: useless via :Rocky Helmet:. Knock Off assists the team by knocking off :Leftovers: and :heavy-duty boots:. Oblivion Wing gives Yveltals longevity and keeps up damage output. Roost can also be used for more reliable recTera Steel is also just a good defensive typing.

+3 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Steel Yveltal: 152-179 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Steel Yveltal: 96-113 (21 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Steel Yveltal: 154-182 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- approx. 3HKO

+4 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Steel Yveltal: 181-213 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

156 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 198-234 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

+3 252 Atk Dark Aura Tera Steel Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 253-298 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dark Aura Tera Steel Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Ice: 378-446 (93.5 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Dark Aura Tera Steel Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 178-211 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+4 252+ Atk Dark Aura Tera Steel Yveltal Foul Play vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 546-643 (126.6 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

156 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
 
I wanted to share my ricochet Yveltal real quick. I’ve gotten in the top 50 with this on my team. I’m not for sure how impressive that is, but eh…


:Yveltal: @ :Rocky Helmet:
Ability: Dark Aura
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Calm Nature
- Taunt
- Oblivion Wing / Roost
- Knock Off
- Foul Play

With Foul Play and immense Defensive investment, Yveltal completely punishes Physical Setup from :Rayquaza:, :Necrozma ultra:, :Arceus:, :Calyrex Ice:, :Groudon primal:, :Mewtwo Mega X:, :Salamence Mega:, and my favorite, :Zacian Crowned:, via a Tera Steel surprise. Taunt allows Yveltal to stall break and stop :Ho-Oh: and Defensive :Arceus: from recovery. That with Tera Steel allows Yveltal to slowly wear down :Arceus Fairy:. Yveltal also cripples :Marshadow: by rendering the Pokémon’s :Focus Sash: useless via :Rocky Helmet:. Knock Off assists the team by knocking off :Leftovers: and :heavy-duty boots:. Oblivion Wing gives Yveltals longevity and keeps up damage output. Roost can also be used for more reliable recTera Steel is also just a good defensive typing.

+3 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Steel Yveltal: 152-179 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Calyrex-Ice Glacial Lance vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Steel Yveltal: 96-113 (21 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Steel Yveltal: 154-182 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- approx. 3HKO

+4 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Steel Yveltal: 181-213 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

156 Atk Groudon-Primal Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 198-234 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO

+3 252 Atk Dark Aura Tera Steel Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zacian-Crowned: 253-298 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dark Aura Tera Steel Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Calyrex-Ice: 378-446 (93.5 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Dark Aura Tera Steel Yveltal Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 178-211 (37.5 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+4 252+ Atk Dark Aura Tera Steel Yveltal Foul Play vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 546-643 (126.6 - 149.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

156 Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 166-196 (48.6 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
Defensive Yveltal is already a thing.
1705426660891.png


This set allows for Yveltal to outspeed Support :arceus-ground:, :arceus-fairy:, :arceus-dark: (and other :arceus: formes) and Defensive :salamence-mega:, meaning it will also outspeed Max Speed :groudon-primal:, :kyogre-primal:, :zekrom:, :necrozma-dusk-mane: and :calyrex-ice:, which can all be chipped down by either Foul Play and/or Toxic, whilst preventing setup with Taunt. Tera Ghost helps beat :arceus: and potentially :marshadow: too.

The set you gave is weak to hazards, outsped and severely chipped by pokemon you should've been able to check, and is pretty tera-reliant.

156 Atk Groudon-Primal Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal in Harsh Sunshine: 244-288 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 226-266 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock*
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 178-210 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

*Adamant 252 Speed NDM hits 253 speed, this set has 234 speed.
 
To add some more commentary,
Yveltal also cripples :Marshadow: by rendering the Pokémon’s :Focus Sash: useless via :Rocky Helmet:.
A good :Marshadow: never runs :Focus-Sash:, as it doesn't do nearly enough damage without :Choice-Band: or :Life-Orb:, or even :Fightinium-Z:/:Marshadium-Z: if you want to be creative. :Focus-Sash: :Marshadow: also gets invalidated by Stealth Rocks, and it can't 2HKO specially defensive :Necrozma-Dusk-Mane:.
:Focus-Sash: :Marshadow: is the most common bad set on ladder, and any player would benefit from not crippling their :Marshadow:.
 
Defensive Yveltal is already a thing. View attachment 593312

This set allows for Yveltal to outspeed Support :arceus-ground:, :arceus-fairy:, :arceus-dark: (and other :arceus: formes) and Defensive :salamence-mega:, meaning it will also outspeed Max Speed :groudon-primal:, :kyogre-primal:, :zekrom:, :necrozma-dusk-mane: and :calyrex-ice:, which can all be chipped down by either Foul Play and/or Toxic, whilst preventing setup with Taunt. Tera Ghost helps beat :arceus: and potentially :marshadow: too.

The set you gave is weak to hazards, outsped and severely chipped by pokemon you should've been able to check, and is pretty tera-reliant.

156 Atk Groudon-Primal Heat Crash (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal in Harsh Sunshine: 244-288 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 226-266 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock*
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Yveltal: 178-210 (39 - 46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

*Adamant 252 Speed NDM hits 253 speed, this set has 234 speed.
My team also has this Ho-Oh.


Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Thunder Wave
- Sacred Fire
- Roost

Probably should change the Tera, but this is my Anti-Rock guy. My special Wall. Here’s a link to my original RMT: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/top-500-weather-crashing-bird-core-ubers.3732190/post-9881757

Changed a good bit since then, so this is an RMT on the Pokémon DB that’s a bit more up to date: https://pokemondb.net/pokebase/rmt/65858/top-100-weather-crashing-bird-duo-gen-9-natdex-ubers
 
My team also has this Ho-Oh.


Ho-Oh @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Thunder Wave
- Sacred Fire
- Roost

Probably should change the Tera, but this is my Anti-Rock guy. My special Wall. Here’s a link to my original RMT: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/top-500-weather-crashing-bird-core-ubers.3732190/post-9881757

Changed a good bit since then, so this is an RMT on the Pokémon DB that’s a bit more up to date: https://pokemondb.net/pokebase/rmt/65858/top-100-weather-crashing-bird-duo-gen-9-natdex-ubers
I don't think you need Max Sp. Def on Ho-oh... it has 154 Sp.Def, which is more than enough in my opinion. There's a defensive Ho-Oh set which also exists by the way. The Sp. Def investment prevents +2 :xerneas: from OHKOing :ho-oh: with Thunder (without tera). The rest is dumped into physical defense.

1705435407203.png
 

R8

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I think there definitively is merit to very defensively invested yveltal though, it helps taking on some very strong stuff like tera normal EKiller, Mega Salamence and stone edge Ultra-Necrozma better, and the speed tier isn't always that useful depending on the team in my opinion. Helmet is a cool item but I don't think yveltal can really afford to run it
 
2 things.
1. in the A tier, both necrozma dm and arceus fairy are listed as slot 2
2. despite being listed as uber, all forms of terapagos, and 50% zygarde are not on the viability rankings, when they should be at D
:zygarde-10%:, :zygarde: and :zygarde-complete: are the same pokemon. Same with :terapagos: and :terapagos-stellar:
there are 18 different forms of arceus in the rankings. if it is listed as seprate in showdown, then why isnt it in the viability rankings.
Because :arceus-water: will always stay as :arceus-water: in a match. They don't form change like how :zygarde: or :terapagos: does. Also, you can't start a game with :zygarde-complete: or :terapagos-stellar:.
same thing with ultra necrozma, megas, and technically the primals and zacian c
:groudon:, :kyogre:, :mewtwo: and :zacian: are listed in the VR. All the other megas are irrelevant as they are Ubers by tiering anyways. :necrozma-ultra: is so vastly different from :necrozma-dusk-mane: and :necrozma-dawn-wings: to the point where its sets are different, even if they start out the same. There is no difference with :zygarde: and :zygarde-complete:. There is no difference with :terapagos: and :terapagos-stellar:. That's why they aren't ranked differently, there isn't enough of a difference to justify a seperate placement. :arceus: changes its type, which changes how you use it (:arceus-dark: is defensive compared to :arceus-ghost: which is offensive, same mon, but the difference is major enough to the point where they run different sets, and are therefore put in different tiers).
Ill conceed that 50% zygarde is very similar to zygarde c, and arguing over it isnt really productive. and it makes sence that the forms would share a vr slot. the thing is, they dont. terapagos is not on the vr in any form. also, if you feel the need to reply to me again, start a conversation with me or put all your posts into one like i am doing, because you already posted thrice, and im not sure the mods would tolerate any more. this is not to say i dont apreciate your feedback, i absolutely do. anyways, my main two points of this post were to point out that necrozma dm and arceus fairy share a vr slot, and to point out that terapagos wasnt on the vr. i added zygarde because i thought it also was worth mentioning, but i dont actually care that much.
 
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2 things.
1. in the A tier, both necrozma dm and arceus fairy are listed as slot 2
2. despite being listed as uber, all forms of terapagos, and 50% zygarde are not on the viability rankings, when they should be at D
:zygarde-10%:, :zygarde: and :zygarde-complete: are the same pokemon. Same with :terapagos: and :terapagos-stellar:
 
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there are 18 different forms of arceus in the rankings. if it is listed as seprate in showdown, then why isnt it in the viability rankings.
Because :arceus-water: will always stay as :arceus-water: in a match. They don't form change like how :zygarde: or :terapagos: does. Also, you can't start a game with :zygarde-complete: or :terapagos-stellar:.
 
same thing with ultra necrozma, megas, and technically the primals and zacian c
:groudon:, :kyogre:, :mewtwo: and :zacian: are listed in the VR. All the other megas are irrelevant as they are Ubers by tiering anyways. :necrozma-ultra: is so vastly different from :necrozma-dusk-mane: and :necrozma-dawn-wings: to the point where its sets are different, even if they start out the same. There is no difference with :zygarde: and :zygarde-complete:. There is no difference with :terapagos: and :terapagos-stellar:. That's why they aren't ranked differently, there isn't enough of a difference to justify a seperate placement. :arceus: changes its type, which changes how you use it (:arceus-dark: is defensive compared to :arceus-ghost: which is offensive, same mon, but the difference is major enough to the point where they run different sets, and are therefore put in different tiers).
 
Hello ! here's my Personnal viability ranking (All pokémon are ordered by viability) ! :

S Rank

S+

:groudon-primal: Primal Groudon (Groundon-P is from far the best and splashable pokemon, being a wall to a dangerous sweeper)
:xerneas: Xerneas (Imo really really strong and banworthy
S

:zygarde-complete: Zygarde-C
:eternatus: Eternatus

S-
:zacian-crowned: Zacian-C
:ho-oh: Ho-Oh
:necrozma-ultra: Necrozma-Ultra
:salamence-mega: Mega Salamence


A Rank

A+
:arceus::earth-plate: Arceus-Ground (a bit overrated imo)
:yveltal: Yveltal


A

:arceus: Arceus normal (very good revenge killer but struggle to many phisycal wall sadly)
:necrozma-dusk-mane: Necrozma-DM
:arceus::dread-plate: Arceus-Dark
:arceus::pixie-plate: Arceus-Fairy
:marshadow: Marshadow
:kyogre-primal: Primal Kyogre


A-

:mewtwo-mega-y: Mega Mewtwo Y
:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin
:palkia-origin: Palkia-Origin
:arceus::splash-plate: Arceus-Water
:deoxys-attack: Deoxys-Attack

B Rank

B+

:arceus-poison::toxic-plate: Arceus-Poison
:ditto: Ditto
:flutter-mane: Flutter Mane
:lunala: Lunala


B
:arceus-ghost::spooky-plate: Arceus-Ghost
:calyrex-ice: Calyrex-I

:lucario-mega: Mega Lucario
:melmetal: Melmetal (If you haven't physical wall it can be very dangerous

B-
:arceus::draco-plate: Arceus-Dragon
:chi-yu: Chi-Yu


C Rank

C+
:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-Speed
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:arceus::sky-plate: Arceus-Flying
:mewtwo-mega-x: Mega Mewtwo X


C
:giratina: Giratina
:magearna: Magearna
:diancie-mega: Mega Diancie
:rayquaza: Rayquaza
:arceus::iron-plate: Arceus-Steel
:blissey: Blissey
:dialga: Dialga
:pheromosa: Pheromosa
:dondozo: Dondozo
:kingambit: Kingambit


C-
:zekrom: Zekrom (only good if teraed and walled too easily)
:chien-pao: Chien-Pao (not unviable, but really difficult to fit into a good team)
:dracovish: Dracovish (can destroy unprepared teams if played correctly with a good team)
:chansey: Chansey
:Gothitelle;: Gothitelle
:gholdengo: gholdengo
:necrozma-dawn-wings: Necrozma-Dawn-Wings

D Rank (just copied and pasted the original for most of them, because these are unviable lol)
:arceus::meadow-plate: Arceus-Grass
:annihilape: Annihilape
:buzzwole: Buzzwole (just no, he's bad)
:arceus::insect-plate: Arceus-Bug
:arceus::zap-plate: Arceus-Electric
:arceus::fist-plate: Arceus-Fighting
:arceus::flame-plate: Arceus-Fire
:arceus::icicle-plate: Arceus-Ice
:arceus::mind-plate: Arceus-Psychic
:baxcalibur: Baxcalibur
:deoxys: Deoxys
:landorus: Landorus
:dialga-origin: Dialga-Origin
:dragapult: Dragapult
:espathra: Espathra
:darmanitan-galar: Galarian Darmanitan
:genesect: Genesect
:groudon: Groudon
:iron-bundle: Iron Bundle
:kyogre: Kyogre
:kyurem-white: Kyurem-White
:lugia: Lugia
:alakazam-mega: Mega Alakazam
:blastoise-mega: Mega Blastoise
:blaziken-mega: Mega Blaziken
:kangaskhan-mega: Mega Kangaskhan
:metagross-mega: Mega Metagross
:mewtwo: Mewtwo
:naganadel: Naganadel
:palafin-hero: Palafin
:palkia: Palkia
:regieleki: Regieleki
:reshiram: Reshiram
:roaring-moon: Roaring Moon
:shaymin-sky: Shaymin-Sky
:solgaleo: Solgaleo
:spectrier: Spectrier
:ursaluna-bloodmoon: Ursaluna Bloodmoon
:urshifu: Urshifu
:walking-wake: Walking Wake
:zacian: Zacian
:zamazenta-crowned: Zamazenta-Crowned
 
Last edited:

bumboclaat

Primal Groudon used Overheat
is a Community Contributor
Hello ! here's my Personnal viability ranking (All pokémon are ordered by viability) ! :

S Rank

S+

:groudon-primal: Primal Groudon (Groundon-P is from far the best and splashable pokemon, being a wall to a dangerous sweeper)
:xerneas: Xerneas (Imo really really strong and banworthy
S

:zygarde-complete: Zygarde-C
:eternatus: Eternatus

S-
:zacian-crowned: Zacian-C
:ho-oh: Ho-Oh
:necrozma-ultra: Necrozma-Ultra
:salamence-mega: Mega Salamence


A Rank

A+
:arceus::earth-plate: Arceus-Ground (a bit overrated imo)
:yveltal: Yveltal


A

:arceus: Arceus normal (very good revenge killer but struggle to many phisycal wall sadly)
:necrozma-dusk-mane: Necrozma-DM
:arceus::dread-plate: Arceus-Dark
:arceus::pixie-plate: Arceus-Fairy
:marshadow: Marshadow
:kyogre-primal: Primal Kyogre


A-

:mewtwo-mega-y: Mega Mewtwo Y
:giratina-origin: Giratina-Origin
:palkia-origin: Palkia-Origin
:arceus::splash-plate: Arceus-Water
:deoxys-attack: Deoxys-Attack

B Rank

B+

:arceus-poison::toxic-plate: Arceus-Poison
:ditto: Ditto
:flutter-mane: Flutter Mane
:lunala: Lunala


B
:arceus-ghost::spooky-plate: Arceus-Ghost
:calyrex-ice: Calyrex-I

:lucario-mega: Mega Lucario
:melmetal: Melmetal (If you haven't physical wall it can be very dangerous

B-
:arceus::draco-plate: Arceus-Dragon
:chi-yu: Chi-Yu


C Rank

C+
:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-Speed
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:arceus::sky-plate: Arceus-Flying
:mewtwo-mega-x: Mega Mewtwo X


C
:giratina: Giratina
:magearna: Magearna
:diancie-mega: Mega Diancie
:rayquaza: Rayquaza
:arceus::iron-plate: Arceus-Steel
:blissey: Blissey
:dialga: Dialga
:pheromosa: Pheromosa
:dondozo: Dondozo
:kingambit: Kingambit


C-
:zekrom: Zekrom (only good if teraed and walled too easily)
:chien-pao: Chien-Pao (not unviable, but really difficult to fit into a good team)
:dracovish: Dracovish (can destroy unprepared teams if played correctly with a good team)
:chansey: Chansey
:Gothitelle;: Gothitelle
:gholdengo: gholdengo
:necrozma-dawn-wings: Necrozma-Dawn-Wings

D Rank (just copied and pasted the original for most of them, because these are unviable lol)
:arceus::meadow-plate: Arceus-Grass
:annihilape: Annihilape
:buzzwole: Buzzwole (just no, he's bad)
:arceus::insect-plate: Arceus-Bug
:arceus::zap-plate: Arceus-Electric
:arceus::fist-plate: Arceus-Fighting
:arceus::flame-plate: Arceus-Fire
:arceus::icicle-plate: Arceus-Ice
:arceus::mind-plate: Arceus-Psychic
:baxcalibur: Baxcalibur
:deoxys: Deoxys
:landorus: Landorus
:dialga-origin: Dialga-Origin
:dragapult: Dragapult
:espathra: Espathra
:darmanitan-galar: Galarian Darmanitan
:genesect: Genesect
:groudon: Groudon
:iron-bundle: Iron Bundle
:kyogre: Kyogre
:kyurem-white: Kyurem-White
:lugia: Lugia
:alakazam-mega: Mega Alakazam
:blastoise-mega: Mega Blastoise
:blaziken-mega: Mega Blaziken
:kangaskhan-mega: Mega Kangaskhan
:metagross-mega: Mega Metagross
:mewtwo: Mewtwo
:naganadel: Naganadel
:palafin-hero: Palafin
:palkia: Palkia
:regieleki: Regieleki
:reshiram: Reshiram
:roaring-moon: Roaring Moon
:shaymin-sky: Shaymin-Sky
:solgaleo: Solgaleo
:spectrier: Spectrier
:ursaluna-bloodmoon: Ursaluna Bloodmoon
:urshifu: Urshifu
:walking-wake: Walking Wake
:zacian: Zacian
:zamazenta-crowned: Zamazenta-Crowned
Would you mind giving your reasoning for some of these placements? It is a personal VR and everyone has their own take on the meta, but a few of these are a bit baffling
 
Would you mind giving your reasoning for some of these placements? It is a personal VR and everyone has their own take on the meta, but a few of these are a bit baffling
For melmetal, I've been using him on many alts on highladder, and if nicely played he can threaten very easily most of a team
(the set I've been using)
Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 72 HP / 180 Atk / 244 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
For dracovish, basically sticky + fishious rend can deestroy unprepared team (I have a team build around dracovish sand, but I struggle at 1400 with)
Kingambit, really good endgame sweeper if you removed arceus, I find kingambit very underated
Necrozma ultra is very very strong, and u can bait ur opponnent by using ndm with cm
For Salamence, I make an error and put him s- (a+ if I was not distracted by battles) Really strong, mixed sets are quite goods

I'll finish later to explain
 
:xerneas: Xerneas (Imo really really strong and banworthy
:xerneas: shouldn't be S+ alongside :groudon-primal:. The only other pokemon that COULD be S+ imo is :eternatus:, and that's because it actually serves as an S+ mon unlike :xerneas:. :groudon-primal: is S+, sure because it's strong and bulky, but it's also extremely versatile. It has like 5-7 different yet viable sets it can run, and that's not even including all the different thresholds these sets can reach. :xerneas: has a few different Geomancy sets, sure, but it's still the same set at its core. :choice-specs:/:choice-scarf: exist too I guess, but these two are much more niche compared to the sets :groudon-primal: can run. :eternatus: is also similar, where it has quite a few sets it can run, such as Specially Defensive, Z-Move, Meteor Beam etc; which is why I think it could also be S+, but not :xerneas:. Strong, sure, but not versatile and not every team, even offensive ones, want it for it to be S+.

:necrozma-ultra: Necrozma-Ultra
I don't think these two are S- material either. :necrozma-ultra: is prone to being revenge killed and is usually limited to offensive team structures, similar to :xerneas:. A+ is good for representing its power (due to it mostly being a setup sweeper) but S- is too high for it IMO.

:kyogre-primal: Primal Kyogre
I would say that :kyogre-primal: is much better than :arceus-fairy: but other than that this placement is fine.

:palkia-origin: Palkia-Origin
:arceus::splash-plate: Arceus-Water
Although they are A- on VR, I don't think they should be. Apart from the fact they're very uncommon on ladder, they have some issues. :palkia-origin: is very inconsistent. On paper it's very good, being good at breaking apart balance teams with its STAB and coverage in Fire Blast, but considering how all it's attacks have low accuracy really dents its usability. :arceus-water: as a defensive utility mon suffers heavy competition from :arceus-dark:, although it is a solid Calm Mind attacker with :splash-plate: Judgement + Earth Power, but that puts it into direct competition with :kyogre-primal:. B+ should be solid for these mons, but A- feels a bit too high IMO.

:flutter-mane: Flutter Mane
This mon shouldn't even be B+. It sucks. It suffers a lot from 4MSS, as its forced to run STAB, then it has to decide between Mystical Fire, Thunder/bolt, Power Gem and Psyshock. Then it struggles with its item slot, as it wants Booster Energy for speed, but then it doesn't have enouhg power. Specs hits pretty hard, but its not fast enough (outsped by :zacian-crowned:). Booster + Calm Mind only worsens the 4MSS issue, as well as other moves like Taunt being wanted. Also it's forced to Tera Normal/Dark against :marshadow:, as well as then losing to the other formes of priority such as ESpeed :arceus:. Honestly this mon should be C+/C, not B+.

:melmetal: Melmetal (If you haven't physical wall it can be very dangerous
No. :melmetal: is forced to be on Mono-TR teams which have their own problems as it is (such as being very inconsistent, shut down immediately by most stall teams etc). :melmetal: is not that hard to wall either. :groudon-primal:, :ho-oh:, :necrozma-dusk-mane:, Defensive :kyogre-primal:, :arceus-water: and ESPECIALLY Tera Water :zygarde-complete: can all wall this thing, heal off most of the damage and threaten to 2HKO or OHKO it back. It being above other mons that you dropped is also questionable.
Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 72 HP / 180 Atk / 244 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
:assault-vest: lacks the power that :choice-band: provides, and you still can't heal off the damage you take, so you're still easy to revenge kill.

:deoxys-speed: Deoxys-Speed
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
But why though? These are some of the best leads in the metagame? :deoxys-speed: is pretty much guranteed to get a row of spikes up, or stealth rocks, or a screen, while being able to shut down other leads/setup mons, whilst being able to protect itself from Taunt with Magic Coat. :grimmsnarl: is even better at setting screens, and it's able to do so multiple times in the course of a game due to Parting Shot giving it momentum to it's teammates. They are not C+. They are much higher than this.

It's a really good stall or even fat balance mon. Pretty much the main mon on stall as well, being able to shut down pokemon like :groudon-primal: very well for its team. Should be B tier.

One of my favourite :xerneas: answers, which should've given it more respect due to :xerneas: being S+, but Heart Swap being able to completely shut down :xerneas: AND use it's boosts with Fleur Cannon is pretty powerful. It's also a very good switch into :life-orb: :yveltal:, especially if you're using the :normalium-z: Heal Bell strategy (blocks Knock Off, good for mons like :ho-oh:), although this doesn't let it terastalize. Still shouldn't be C tier though.

...what? How? This is one of the best wallbreakers, as well as being a very good setup sweeper with either Swords Dance + Scale Shot or just Dragon Dance. C Tier is absolutely absurd. I'm not sure why you swapped :rayquaza: with :melmetal: on the VR but it's definitely better than this.

Could probably be B- due to being a very good wall and even wincon in some situations with Unaware, as well as being very viable on Stall teams.

:zekrom: Zekrom (only good if teraed and walled too easily)
Firstly, :zekrom: doesn't use tera. It uses :dragonium-z:. Dragon Dance + Devastating Drake is able to shred through even so called checks such as :groudon-primal: after Stealth Rock or Spikes or even both. It works really well on :shuckle: sticky webs teams too, with its STAB being basically unresisted in the tier, giving it a free slot for things like Substitute, Roost or Dragon Claw. Speaking of :shuckle:, where is he? And where's :ferrothorn:?

:chien-pao: Chien-Pao (not unviable, but really difficult to fit into a good team)
Trust me this thing is D Tier. Sure, it's speed is really good. Sure, it's attack is technically good with Sword of Ruin. BUT, it's movepool is horrid for this tier. It's strongest STAB is 85 BP, which is measly. Imagine :eternatus: being forced to use Dragon Pulse over Dynamax Cannon or Draco Meteor, and you'll see the huge difference this makes. This low BP makes it pretty weak in practice, which enourages either Swords Dance or boosting items like :choice-band:, but :chien-pao: is too frail to use Swords Dance effectively, and being locked into Ice or Dark moves can be detrimental for offensive teams. Lastly, no matter what it does, it's shut down by :zacian-crowned:, which sucks really badly for the whole team, giving it free boosts.

:dracovish: Dracovish (can destroy unprepared teams if played correctly with a good team)
Holy :groudon-primal:. This thing requires too much team support to function at all, and can still be walled by things such as Tera Grass :ho-oh:, Tera Water :zygarde-complete:, defensive :eternatus: etc etc.

Should be B- for the same reasons as :dondozo: and even :giratina:.

:Gothitelle;: Gothitelle
Now this is a mon who can destroy unprepared teams. With Charm + Cosmic Power, :gothitelle: is able to shut down powerful sweepers like :necrozma-dusk-mane: and :zygarde:, whilst being able to PP Stall them and defensive mons like :ho-oh: with Taunt. Genuinely a threat to a lot of balance teams and is appreciated by offensive teammates like :arceus: and :xerneas:. Should be B/B+.

:necrozma-dawn-wings: Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
No.

:arceus::meadow-plate: Arceus-Grass
D is a little harsh. It is a good switch into :kyogre-primal: and :zygarde:, being able to hit both for SE. It still packs the same utility as other Arceus formes so I don't think D is a good spot for it (especially because it is far better than :necrozma-dawn-wings:). C/C- is alright for it, although C+ could still work.[/SPOILER]
 
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:xerneas: shouldn't be S+ alongside :groudon-primal:. The only other pokemon that COULD be S+ imo is :eternatus:, and that's because it actually serves as an S+ mon unlike :xerneas:. :groudon-primal: is S+, sure because it's strong and bulky, but it's also extremely versatile. It has like 5-7 different yet viable sets it can run, and that's not even including all the different thresholds these sets can reach. :xerneas: has a few different Geomancy sets, sure, but it's still the same set at its core. :choice-specs:/:choice-scarf: exist too I guess, but these two are much more niche compared to the sets :groudon-primal: can run. :eternatus: is also similar, where it has quite a few sets it can run, such as Specially Defensive, Z-Move, Meteor Beam etc; which is why I think it could also be S+, but not :xerneas:. Strong, sure, but not versatile and not every team, even offensive ones, want it for it to be S+.


I don't think these two are S- material either. :necrozma-ultra: is prone to being revenge killed and is usually limited to offensive team structures, similar to :xerneas:. A+ is good for representing its power (due to it mostly being a setup sweeper) but S- is too high for it IMO.


I would say that :kyogre-primal: is much better than :arceus-fairy: but other than that this placement is fine.


Although they are A- on VR, I don't think they should be. Apart from the fact they're very uncommon on ladder, they have some issues. :palkia-origin: is very inconsistent. On paper it's very good, being good at breaking apart balance teams with its STAB and coverage in Fire Blast, but considering how all it's attacks have low accuracy really dents its usability. :arceus-water: as a defensive utility mon suffers heavy competition from :arceus-dark:, although it is a solid Calm Mind attacker with :splash-plate: Judgement + Earth Power, but that puts it into direct competition with :kyogre-primal:. B+ should be solid for these mons, but A- feels a bit too high IMO.


This mon shouldn't even be B+. It sucks. It suffers a lot from 4MSS, as its forced to run STAB, then it has to decide between Mystical Fire, Thunder/bolt, Power Gem and Psyshock. Then it struggles with its item slot, as it wants Booster Energy for speed, but then it doesn't have enouhg power. Specs hits pretty hard, but its not fast enough (outsped by :zacian-crowned:). Booster + Calm Mind only worsens the 4MSS issue, as well as other moves like Taunt being wanted. Also it's forced to Tera Normal/Dark against :marshadow:, as well as then losing to the other formes of priority such as ESpeed :arceus:. Honestly this mon should be C+/C, not B+.


No. :melmetal: is forced to be on Mono-TR teams which have their own problems as it is (such as being very inconsistent, shut down immediately by most stall teams etc). :melmetal: is not that hard to wall either. :groudon-primal:, :ho-oh:, :necrozma-dusk-mane:, Defensive :kyogre-primal:, :arceus-water: and ESPECIALLY Tera Water :zygarde-complete: can all wall this thing, heal off most of the damage and threaten to 2HKO or OHKO it back. It being above other mons that you dropped is also questionable.

:assault-vest: lacks the power that :choice-band: provides, and you still can't heal off the damage you take, so you're still easy to revenge kill.


But why though? These are some of the best leads in the metagame? :deoxys-speed: is pretty much guranteed to get a row of spikes up, or stealth rocks, or a screen, while being able to shut down other leads/setup mons, whilst being able to protect itself from Taunt with Magic Coat. :grimmsnarl: is even better at setting screens, and it's able to do so multiple times in the course of a game due to Parting Shot giving it momentum to it's teammates. They are not C+. They are much higher than this.


It's a really good stall or even fat balance mon. Pretty much the main mon on stall as well, being able to shut down pokemon like :groudon-primal: very well for its team. Should be B tier.


One of my favourite :xerneas: answers, which should've given it more respect due to :xerneas: being S+, but Heart Swap being able to completely shut down :xerneas: AND use it's boosts with Fleur Cannon is pretty powerful. It's also a very good switch into :life-orb: :yveltal:, especially if you're using the :normalium-z: Heal Bell strategy (blocks Knock Off, good for mons like :ho-oh:), although this doesn't let it terastalize. Still shouldn't be C tier though.


...what? How? This is one of the best wallbreakers, as well as being a very good setup sweeper with either Swords Dance + Scale Shot or just Dragon Dance. C Tier is absolutely absurd. I'm not sure why you swapped :rayquaza: with :melmetal: on the VR but it's definitely better than this.


Could probably be B- due to being a very good wall and even wincon in some situations with Unaware, as well as being very viable on Stall teams.


Firstly, :zekrom: doesn't use tera. It uses :dragonium-z:. Dragon Dance + Devastating Drake is able to shred through even so called checks such as :groudon-primal: after Stealth Rock or Spikes or even both. It works really well on :shuckle: sticky webs teams too, with its STAB being basically unresisted in the tier, giving it a free slot for things like Substitute, Roost or Dragon Claw. Speaking of :shuckle:, where is he? And where's :ferrothorn:?


Trust me this thing is D Tier. Sure, it's speed is really good. Sure, it's attack is technically good with Sword of Ruin. BUT, it's movepool is horrid for this tier. It's strongest STAB is 85 BP, which is measly. Imagine :eternatus: being forced to use Dragon Pulse over Dynamax Cannon or Draco Meteor, and you'll see the huge difference this makes. This low BP makes it pretty weak in practice, which enourages either Swords Dance or boosting items like :choice-band:, but :chien-pao: is too frail to use Swords Dance effectively, and being locked into Ice or Dark moves can be detrimental for offensive teams. Lastly, no matter what it does, it's shut down by :zacian-crowned:, which sucks really badly for the whole team, giving it free boosts.


Holy :groudon-primal:. This thing requires too much team support to function at all, and can still be walled by things such as Tera Grass :ho-oh:, Tera Water :zygarde-complete:, defensive :eternatus: etc etc.


Should be B- for the same reasons as :dondozo: and even :giratina:.


Now this is a mon who can destroy unprepared teams. With Charm + Cosmic Power, :gothitelle: is able to shut down powerful sweepers like :necrozma-dusk-mane: and :zygarde:, whilst being able to PP Stall them and defensive mons like :ho-oh: with Taunt. Genuinely a threat to a lot of balance teams and is appreciated by offensive teammates like :arceus: and :xerneas:. Should be B/B+.


No.


D is a little harsh. It is a good switch into :kyogre-primal: and :zygarde:, being able to hit both for SE. It still packs the same utility as other Arceus formes so I don't think D is a good spot for it (especially because it is far better than :necrozma-dawn-wings:). C/C- is alright for it, although C+ could still work.
For rayquaza, i probably underestimated his power, I run most of the time the same fat team, this Is not because my team is wall him that he’s not bad, but for be b+ rank.
 

bumboclaat

Primal Groudon used Overheat
is a Community Contributor
For melmetal, I've been using him on many alts on highladder, and if nicely played he can threaten very easily most of a team
(the set I've been using)
Melmetal @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 72 HP / 180 Atk / 244 SpD / 12 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double Iron Bash
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
For dracovish, basically sticky + fishious rend can deestroy unprepared team (I have a team build around dracovish sand, but I struggle at 1400 with)
Kingambit, really good endgame sweeper if you removed arceus, I find kingambit very underated
Necrozma ultra is very very strong, and u can bait ur opponnent by using ndm with cm
For Salamence, I make an error and put him s- (a+ if I was not distracted by battles) Really strong, mixed sets are quite goods

I'll finish later to explain
To start, I agree with most of what S0A0M0I0 has said. Only thing I don't agree with is :eternatus: That being said, I do understand and don't really have an issue with that take. Its ground weakness in addition to :kyogre-primal: making CM a mainstay of its sets these days keeps it out of S+ for me. Defensive sets have a bit of 4MSS and offensive sets lack the defensive utility :eternatus: is known for. If Sami or anyone else thinks :eternatus: is the second best mon in the tier I understand and am fine with that viewpoint even if I don't agree. I agree with everything else Sami has written though. FWIW, I did my own personal VR at the end of the year (post #159) if you're interested in my thoughts on the meta as nothing significant has really changed since then. The biggest change I'd make is probably moving :ditto: to either the top of B+ or bottom of A-.

If you're playing in the 1400s you really are not getting an accurate picture of what the actual meta looks like and are frankly lucky to load into a decent team. This is still largely true in the 1500s as well and last I played you don't start regularly seeing teams representative of the meta until somewhere in the 1600s. That is going to have a large influence in what is going to be successful.

Any decent player can get any mon to a pretty high spot on the ladder due to their own skill, but also the ladder itself is not super compeititive even at the top and we don't have a large playerbase which exacerbates the issue. For example, weirdhamster got :swadloon: to the top 10 a couple of weeks ago. It isn't because :swadloon: is a great mon, but because hamster is a good player and built a team which enabled it to do its thing (walling zygarde and non fire move :groudon-primal: iirc).

If you have replays of :melmetal: putting in work I'd love to see those. I've been pretty vocal on discord for a while about :melmetal: being a D ranker with its strength being its :choice-band: set on full TR teams. I was quite surprised to see that it remained ranked with the last update given that the rest of the TR mons were unranked and :melmetal: is ok on TR but :calyrex-ice: is the mon you want to abuse.

Sure on paper :dracovish: can destroy an unprepared team, but that is because those are bad teams. It is entirely invalidated by :groudon-primal: which should be on nearly every non stall team and mons like :dondozo: and :giratina: can handle it on stall. I do agree with you on :kingambit:. It works on some fat balances as a cleaner but still has a lot of issues. Then again you've ranked it C and that is generally the case for C rank mons.

S- is too high for :necrozma-ultra: in my opinion. If someone is particularly high on it can see them giving it that ranking and it certainly is a S rank threat into balances without :marshadow: or :arceus-dark:. It is a great mon but it has too many issues to be S- rank in my opinion. Speaking of :Arceus-dark: what has surprised me is that many of the mons you've rated quite highly relative to the VR are those which :Arceus-dark: checks yet you've dropped it in your rankings.

:salamence-mega: is a great mon, but having it in such a small A+, yet alone the top of it is way too high. Most of your A rank is better than it and it has the issue of being hard to fit outside of HO. If you could elaborate on the mixed sets you run I'd appreciate that because I've not encountered a mixed :salamence-mega: that wasn't better off just staying physical. It very rarely wants for more than flying STAB + EQ.

--------------------

The mons that stood out to me in your ranking that I was wondering if you could expand on:
  • :arceus-dark:
  • :kyogre-primal: - Not really sure why you're so low on it
  • :necrozma-dusk-mane: - I do like it a lot but this seems a bit high
  • :deoxys-speed: In no world is this C+. It is the best HO lead by a country mile and is the face of the playstyle
  • :Rayquaza: - :choice-band: is an absolute nuke and one of the best stallbreakers in the tier as well as one of the few mons that pivots. SD/DD sets are great on HO
  • :gothitelle: - This is a tourney mon not a ladder mon and is arguably the scariest mon in the tier to load into if you arn't running HO. Its issues are the matchups where you're facing 5v6 but the upsides are so high
 
This mon shouldn't even be B+. It sucks. It suffers a lot from 4MSS, as its forced to run STAB, then it has to decide between Mystical Fire, Thunder/bolt, Power Gem and Psyshock. Then it struggles with its item slot, as it wants Booster Energy for speed, but then it doesn't have enouhg power. Specs hits pretty hard, but its not fast enough (outsped by :zacian-crowned:). Booster + Calm Mind only worsens the 4MSS issue, as well as other moves like Taunt being wanted. Also it's forced to Tera Normal/Dark against :marshadow:, as well as then losing to the other formes of priority such as ESpeed :arceus:. Honestly this mon should be C+/C, not B+.
Seriously though, :flutter-mane: should be in C+

When :koraidon: was banned, I was expected it to drop to this range, but I'm confused on why it's still B+ even though all the mons in B+ are much more consistent than it, and don't suffer from the same things it does, at least not to the extent.

:flutter-mane: suffers from 4MSS a lot. It needs its STAB moves for power, but it needs Mystical Fire for :zacian-crowned: and :magearna:, Power Gem for :ho-oh:, Psyshock for :chansey: and :blissey: (maybe even :clodsire:), and Thunder or Thunderbolt for :kyogre-primal: and :arceus-water:. It also wants other moves such as Taunt to stop Support Arceus formes from healing and Calm Mind for boosting. Obviously it can't run all of these coverage moves at once, which means a lot of the time it's easy to shut down defensively, whether it be on stall or bulky offense teams. This differs from the other mons in B+, who either don't suffer from this problem at all (such as :zekrom: or :grimmsnarl:) or can mitigate this weakness with the help of teammates (such as Defensive :lunala:, such as being able to run Roar or Will-o-Wisp if another defogger is present). What this means is that Flutter Mane is very inconsistent and can encourage MU fishing.

:flutter-mane: struggles with choosing its Item as well. Without :koraidon: to boost speed via Protosynthesis, :flutter-mane: is forced to use :booster-energy: to outspeed threats it usually would've, such as :zacian-crowned: and :deoxys-attack:. However, this means :flutter-mane: has no boost to its offense, such as :choice-specs: or :life-orb:, or even the occasional :ghostium-z:/:fairium-z:, which makes it pretty weak, despite it's unresisted STAB.
:groudon-primal: 252 SpA Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 118-141 (29.2 - 34.9%) -- 13.2% chance to 3HKO
:arceus-water: 252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 136-162 (30.6 - 36.5%) -- 61.7% chance to 3HKO
:necrozma-dusk-mane: 252 SpA Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 152 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 163-193 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Defensive DDance)
:ho-oh: 252 SpA Flutter Mane Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Ho-Oh: 240-284 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:kyogre-primal: 252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 106-126 (31 - 36.9%) -- 72.3% chance to 3HKO
:zacian-crowned: 252 SpA Flutter Mane Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 150-178 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO
:mewtwo-mega-y: 252 SpA Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 230-272 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:eternatus: 252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 130-154 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- 33.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
:eternatus: 252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eternatus: 166-196 (39.4 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If :flutter-mane: does use a Sp. Atk boosting item, it risks getting outsped and OHKO'd by :zacian-crowned:'s Behemoth Blade and :mewtwo-mega-y:'s Psystrike. Running :booster-energy: encourages it to use Calm Mind for power, however this worsens the 4MSS problem I've mentioned, further limiting its use. Using Calm Mind is also very hard to pull off, due to :flutter-mane:'s poor bulk, even on the special side. And even if it gets a Calm Mind off, it's still not OHKOing everything. Again, unlike the pokemon in B+ or even B Tier, they don't have to decide as much whether or not they want speed or power.
:zacian-crowned: +1 252 SpA Flutter Mane Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 224-264 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:giratina-origin: +1 252 SpA Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-Origin: 404-476 (80.3 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:eternatus: +1 252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 195-231 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
:eternatus: +1 252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eternatus: 249-294 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:groudon-primal: +1 252 SpA Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Groudon-Primal: 178-211 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO
:ho-oh: +1 252 SpA Flutter Mane Power Gem vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Ho-Oh: 356-420 (85.7 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
:kyogre-primal: +1 252 SpA Flutter Mane Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:arceus-ground: +1 252 SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 204-241 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:flutter-mane: dies to pretty much anything. Unlike :deoxys-attack:, :mewtwo-mega-y:, :rayquaza: or even :diancie-mega:, it doesn't have the immediate power that they do, which justifies them being frail attackers. Its food for :marshadow:'s or even :giratina-origin:'s Shadow Sneak, and terastalizing out of Ghost into Normal only leaves you vulnerable to :arceus:'s or :rayquaza:'s Extreme Speed, while still being weak to :lucario-mega:'s Bullet Punch. Without Tera Fairy, you're not only still weak, but you're prone to being OHKO'd by :life-orb: :yveltal:'s Sucker Punch too.
VS PRIORITY
:marshadow: 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 400-476 (159.3 - 189.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:marshadow: 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Flutter Mane: 200-238 (79.6 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:arceus: 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Flutter Mane: 262-310 (104.3 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:arceus: 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Normal Flutter Mane: 220-259 (87.6 - 103.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
:giratina-origin: 136+ Atk Griseous Core Giratina-Origin Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 242-288 (96.4 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
:lucario-mega: 252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 308-364 (122.7 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:yveltal: 4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 265-313 (105.5 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:rayquaza: 252 Atk Choice Band Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Flutter Mane: 235-277 (93.6 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

VS EVERYTHING ELSE
:groudon-primal: 0 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 349-412 (139 - 164.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:ho-oh: 0 Atk Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 219-258 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
:arceus-ground: 252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 300-354 (119.5 - 141%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:zacian-crowned: 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 264-312 (105.1 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:eternatus: +1 252 SpA Eternatus Sludge Bomb vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Flutter Mane: 123-145 (49 - 57.7%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
:kyogre-primal: 252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Flutter Mane in Heavy Rain: 195-231 (77.6 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:deoxys-attack: 252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Flutter Mane: 196-231 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Lastly, all the B+ mons are just better. :ditto: is obviously good and could be argued to be in A-. :ferrothorn: is a great :kyogre-primal: switch in, as well as being a good hazard setter and one of the only Leech Seed users in the tier, alongside :calyrex-ice:, who (although it's B), is a very potent cleaner and is really bulky despite its weaknesses. :grimmsnarl: is a solid screens setter. :lunala: is versatile from offense to defense and is still pretty bulky with Shadow Shield despite having two 4x weaknesses. :rayquaza: has a very strong :choice-band: set which can stallbreak for a team, while both it and :zekrom: only need one boost to become devastating sweepers. Even lower rank mons like :gothitelle: are better than it IMO, alongside :arceus-poison: being good role compression against :xerneas: and :arceus-fairy:.

:flutter-mane: is not B+ material. It could be B- or C+, just not B+ next to :rayquaza: and :ditto:.
 

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