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i'm confused on how drei is literally S- in natdex ou and is in UU
natdex ladder is so wack this is literally the probably the first time a mon has been S rank in more then 1 tier from ZU to OU e: I swear i'll actually edit this later
Oml am i actually going back and editing a post?
Not really too surprised and we have plenty of other phys walls like mvenu.
Why is HO better
This however, is amazing. I was already a big fan of defensive washtom in natdex ou but I'm excited we finally got it, and even though mvenu is in the tier (and drei) it annoys both of these with burns and constant volts, and I think it''s going to be a really healthy addition and imo frees up building a lot
Well msciz is gone but cele is still here, I think this will be a bit better but i mean mvenu again
I am so confused on how these dropped
It's like hydreigon all over again
natdex ladder is wack
NO!
Ah well, what can you expect when 3% of the 1760 ladder were monotype teams last month (not kidding, this month is thankfully only 1.2%), and Dracovish has more use than Mega Gross.
Some of my thoughts on the new drops and the HA starters!
Bisharp is back again, and to no one's surprise, it's yet again amazing. +2 Knock Off is insanely strong and capable of breaking through even sturdy physical walls like Hippowdon. Sucker Punch has a good chance to sweep many offensive teams late games, making up for its mediocre speed stat. HO teams were already great but since Bisharp's drop they gained a giant threat, boosting the playstyle even further. Some trends are hindering it since last time it was here, mainly Breloom and Buzzwole being way more common, but will still be a very solid Pokemon in the metagame.
Ditto is Ditto. It serves a nice purpose in revenge killing, since the tier is filled with threatening setup sweepers like Hydreigon, Manaphy, Gengar, Mega Gyarados and much more. Not much more to say, but it can be very nice to slap this on a team and check so many Pokemon in one slot.
Now this 'mon is the absolute goat. I was super excited that it dropped and hasn't disappointed me so far. Screens on HO teams is obviously the best set, as Grimmsnarl actually has access to Taunt (unlike Klefki). That's all nice and all, but I think the Choice Band set has a lot of potential. Base 125 attack is super strong, and Dark/Fairy is an actually quite good defensive typing for an offensive Pokemon. I've mainly been using this set, with Power Whip being here as a way to reliably break through Hippowdon and OHKO'ing Manaphy. Sucker Punch is also super strong for faster threats, and your defensive typing allows you to actually come into certain metagame staples like Latias, or Choice locked Hydreigon and claim a kill. RestTalkBU is also cool but it's very matchup reliant so won't get much into that.
I was pretty sad that Slowbro left, as it meant we lost a very good Salamence check. In return though, we got an even better Salamence check. Salamence never runs a Dragon move as it needs its Flying/Ground/Fire coverage. Rotom-Wash is easily able to take care of this of course. Rotom-Wash also means Gyarados is now forced to run Power Whip if it wants to break it, meaning it runs into a 4MSS since it wants Flying/Water/Ground coverage for sure. Rotom-Wash is also a great Defogger, beating most hazard setters (outside of Seismitoad), and an amazing user of Volt Switch which I really like. Letting Kyurem in for free is a L but that's why Volt Switch is the goat move.
I thought this 'mon was going to be extremely garbage (still do), especially with Grassy Surge Rillaboom now being released and having better offensive capabilities (will get into it later). However, !!11!1!! opened my eyes and introduced me to the AV set. This set is capable of checking some absurdly strong special attackers midway through a match like Alakazam (Psyshock is not always ran because Blissey isn't super common, and Psychic is preferred for stuff like Hippowdon), Calm Mind Keldeo, and even +3 Manaphy. Speed is for Adamant Tyranitar. Still really struggles with top tier metagame threats like Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss, Skarmory and Celesteela, so offensive sets will likely never be too successful.
Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Pursuit
Now Tyranitar has the potential to be probably the best drop. I've already experienced it as a great rocker, and personally like the Specially Defensive Chople Berry set the most. It allows you to have a great one-time check to stuff like +2 Thundurus-Therian, Alakazam and Gengar, and guaranteed OHKO them in return. Naturally, Choice Band sets are also great, absolutely demolishing teams if played well (seriously, banded Stone Edge has very little switch ins). Tyranitar can also have some very fun lure sets, and I'd say I consider the Choice Scarf set to be the best one. Bopping Hydreigon with a Scarf Superpower or revenge killing Gengar. Even some special lure sets can be used effectively, like Fire Blast for Skarmory or even chad Hydro Pump for the ever so present Hippowdon. Amazing Pokemon and super healthy for the tier.
Now this 'mon is just absolutely fucking dumb. Not only did Mega Tyranitar drop, the best screen setter in the entire game dropped alongside it, making Mega Tyranitar practically unkillable. Literally Scarf Terrakion can't guaranteed revenge kill this absolute monster behind screens, and a boosted up Mega Tyranitar has like zero counters, as even Hippowdon has a chance to get 2HKO'd by a +1 Ice Punch. Its bulk is fucking fantastic and its attack is absurdly high. I really wanted to give this thing a shot, but I just have only seen bad things of it, and can not see it having a healthy effect on the meta.
Now Cinderace has Libero, and it went from an already pretty alright Pokemon to one of the more threatening ones. Unlike OU, which has Toxapex, Cinderace suffers a tad bit less from a 4MSS here, as most of the time Pyro Ball / HJK / U-turn / Sucker Punch or Gunk Shot is enough. Choice Band for me has been the most successful so far, literally being able to maybe 2HKO the most physically defensive Pokemon in the tier like Hippowdon and Alomomola. Defensive Moltres and Primarina have to worry about Gunk Shot, while Cinderace can also run Sucker Punch to nail faster threats like Alakazam and a weakened Mega Aerodactyl. I actually think the reason why Cinderace can actually be overbearing is the type change in a defensive way. Using HJK against Hippowdon makes it so you aren't weak to EQ, using Sucker Punch against Mega Aero makes it so you aren't weak to Stone Edge etc. I'll have to see how exactly this all is going to play out, but so far it seems hard to consistently check Cinderace offensively due to its high power and good speed tier.
252 Atk Choice Band Libero Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 244-288 (45.6 - 53.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primarina: 127-150 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Choice Band Cinderace Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 180-213 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Now this 'mon I'm also super excited about. Offensively it outperforms Tapu Bulu because of its higher speed tier and actually being able to break bulkier grasses (Mega Venusaur, Amoonguss) with Acrobatics. This set is the best set I'd say, as it's able to completely obliterate the defensive core of Mega Venusaur / Empoleon / Hippowdon, and slower teams in general. Knock Off can be ran over Superpower so you hit Latias and Doublade, but I prefer Superpower more so you can actually OHKO Hydreigon and Kyurem, while dealing more damage to Celesteela and Skarmory. The defense boost from Grassy Seed is super nice you have more setup opportunities against the likes of Mega Gyarados, Breloom, and makes getting revenge killed by the likes of Weavile or Scizor harder to be done. I'd advice to put Rillaboom mostly on offensive teams, or some sort of Para-spam team, as it really brings Rillaboom's capabilities forward. In the replay below you can see how Rillaboom is able to demolish a team as soon as soon as the faster threat was crippled. Super fire Pokemon and can definitely see it remaining a good 'mon (providing trash NatDex OU ladder doesn't steal it >:I)
This replay also shows the use of Grassy Seed making it easier for Rillaboom to setup, since Rockium Z into Mach Punch had a chance to kill otherwise.
Now for some 'mons I just have been enjoying in the meta and think are doing extremely well...
Like Baker has said, Specs Kyurem is absolutely one of the most threatening 'mons to switch into ever since it got Freeze-Dry. SubRoost also beats stuff that would check the Specs set like Blissey. Super amazing breaker for any team.
This 'mon has been underrated the entire gen and still is. Personally been using this set, and have been really enjoying it. The speed is for Adamant Bisharp, while still maintaing enough bulk to check a lot of physical attackers in the tier such as Bisharp itself, Weavile, Diggersby, Mega Gyarados and Breloom. Safety Goggles makes it so its immune to Breloom's Spore and can't magically lose to some heavy RNG. Bulk Up is nice to boost alongside a certain threat and still beat it just fine. Offensive sets are also still hot, mainly being Rockium Z and even Choice Band sometimes.
That was it! Expect some tiering decisions being made later this week and enjoy the new meta!
I'm gonna give my thoughts as well on the new HA. Not on the drops though i think Mareanie covered most of the drops extremely well.
I don't wanna be repetitive and i'll just say i completely agree with Mareanie. Mainly because me and Mareanie thought of the Acrobatics set a week or so before HAs came out. It's a freaking monster against a lot of common defensive cores at the moment. And it's coverage is just enough having Grass, Flying and Fighting coverage literally covers most of the top stuff at the moment. Stomping tantrum is definitely an option i guess if you want a move that hits both doublade and empoleon in the same slot and knock works extremely well also. Not to mention this mon is going to get a considerable buff (depending on BP of the move) in a priority grass type move in the DLC. So that's always really cool.
Literally everything Mareanie said translates here as well. Though i want to say a Bulk Up + Z Set can be really intimidating to play against since Cinder appreciates the defense raises and breaking potential. I think Darkinium with Sucker Punch or Firium will be the best for a Z set though. Darkinium lets you have a good attack to use against latias without depending on them attacking and Sucker by itself lets you not get cucked by Zam and Aero.
I can't believe i am going to say this. Inteleon actually is kinda decent with Sniper believe it or not. It's quite literally critdra if critdra wasn't booty. Focus Energy + Scope Lense + Sniper lets you pump out some pretty insane damage coming off a 125 special attack stat. Netting pretty impressive 2hkos with hydro pump (with and without rocks) on some nutty mons. Not to mention this mon has a really good base speed of 120 which is quite literally 1 base speed above Cinderace, faster than gengar, latias, starmie, etc. This is the set i'd run if i were to run Inteleon at all. This mons coverage is nonexistent but Dark Pulse is there so you aren't stopped by Jellicent. You also COULD run Air Slash to hit Venusaur-Mega harder but Hydro Pump 2hkos with Focus Energy. You could run Modest which has a much easier time against specially defensive water types, but you lose the speed which is crucial to revenge Latias and Gengar.
252 SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primarina on a critical hit: 174-205 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel on a critical hit: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega on a critical hit: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Sniper Inteleon Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias on a critical hit: 342-405 (113.6 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primarina on a critical hit: 174-205 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Sniper Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey on a critical hit: 306-360 (42.8 - 50.4%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (very epic)
This set isn't all sunshine and rainbows though, ur kinda fucked if the enemy has any specially defensive water type. Cause game freak shafted my boys coverage.
I agree with N_Maeranie that Buzzwole is underrated, I found it to be a great Endgame sweeper with Choice scarf, the 79 base speed makes it outspeed every non boosted mon in the tier and it's naturally high phisical bulk allows it to switch in even on super-effective (phisical) moves, with leech life and drain punch + 2 coverage moves depending on what you want personally, Buzzwole has been able to whole eliminate teams after the elimination of just one o two resists, And with beast boost it makes it so that when it gets the revenge kill It's even more threatening so finishing even with a not very effective move becomes a legitimate threat. About the same can be said of Xurkitree who I also found great success in using, especially if the opponet does not have mega venu, but even if they have it then if you manage to get some chip in you would be surprised what even a +1 TBolt can make happen.
Forgot that Rilla got High Horsepower. Must've skipped over it, same thing applies since it ignores the ground type damage reduction from terrain that EQ suffers.
First and foremost, I'm sad to announce that SputnikGT has decided to quit as Council member and VR council member respectively. Thank you for your contributions to this tier!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now onto the announcement.
Yet another slate has been voted on among the council, and we're here with the results!
As a conclusion from these votings, Cinderace, Grimmsnarl, Hydreigon & Manaphy have been quickbanned from National Dex UU.
Since Cinderace got Libero, it's been a super hard to deal with within the tier. Banded sets have the possibility to outright 2HKO the most physically defensive walls in the tier in Hippowdon and Alomomola. Bulk Up Z-Move has also been super threatening set, with the added defense making Cinderace actually able to 1v1 certain Pokémon like Mega Aerodactyl, Hippowdon and others because of Libero changing the typing of Cinderace. The speed tier of Cinderace is also super important playing into the fact why Cinderace is considered broken, because of the lack of offensive counterplay. Cinderace was deemed way too much to deal with at the current point in the metagame, and has been banned. However, I would like to note that the council has expressed interest in potentially retesting Cinderace down the line.
Grimmsnarl was pretty much banned because of the fact that it's way too good as a Screen setter. Grimmsnarl has access to Prankster screens, which is nothing new to this tier since we have Klefki, but also has Prankster Taunt. Prankster Taunt allows it to block Defoggers from blowing away the screens that have been set, and thus keep up screens way more reliably. This allowed for many abusers to go wild way more often than usually experienced in this tier, all simply because Grimmsnarl was this consistent at keeping up screens. Grimmsnarl simply unlocked too many setup sweepers to go wild in the tier, and has been banned.
Hydreigon has been the best Pokémon in the tier for a long time, even surpassing the ever so present Mega Venusaur. However, lately people have finally realized how extremely restrictive and near uncounterable Hydreigon is in the tier. The main set that pushed Hydreigon over the edge was the Nasty Plot Z-Steel set, being pretty much only defensively countered by Babiri Berry Sylveon / Florges. Hydreigon absolutely destroyed many defensive teams, if not all of them, if they weren't carrying this specific type of counterplay. Offensive checks had a super hard time ever coming in safely, thus most of the time you had to sack something to bring them in safely. Hydreigon's defensive qualities were also very nice, being able to stomach Water/Fire/Grass/Electric/Dark/Ghost type moves and being immune to ground, and having great bulk overall, meaning you couldn't always revenge kill it. Hydreigon's huge centralization on teambuilding and threat level in practice has finally deemed banworthy, and thus has been banned after his reign of terror in the tier.
Manaphy was actually a 'mon that was only really experimented with after the Thundurus quickban last month, but oh boy did it have a fun time in the tier. HO teams with Manaphy, be it either Spikes-stacking teams or Klefki/Xatu screens, Manaphy put in work. Water/Psychic/Ice coverage is just enough for Manaphy to completely annihilate the top Pokémon in the tier. The main go to check for Manaphy was Empoleon, being able to stall it with ProTox sets or Roar. However, if Empoleon wasn't kept healthy enough throughout the match, it would mean there was a huge chance you could instantly lose to a +3 Manaphy. Manaphy's bulk was also fantastic for such an offensive Pokémon, meaning it wasn't easily revenge killed, especially behind screens. Manaphy just had too little counterplay in the tier and was pretty much uncounterable, thus has been banned.
Post your thoughts on the new metagame in this thread and be sure to join the roomtours (you'll get notified in the discord) to experience the new metagame!
Damn the Mega Tyranitar vote for giving it the boot was close, I was hoping for it to go because 164 attack + 100/150/120 bulk in a meta where your best megas are Mega Diancie and Mega Gyarados (let's not even talk about Mega Venusaur) sounds like a worse idea than a toaster in a bathtub. Oh well guess that's another day of waiting for it to get the boot.
On a side note, the Hydreigon ban was justified but in the worst way possible. -1/10 where's my refund, my Kyurem/Hydrei team is literally unplayable
Cinderace and Grimmsnarl I don't talk about because everyone hates them. Same goes for you Manaphy
Well, HO kinda goes out of the door losing its best sweeper but we still have Mega Gyarados so it isn't completely doomed? I don't really know how to feel about this take.
On a side note, what does Mega Sharpedo even do in this metagame? Good lord, I ranted about how much I hated this pokemon last gen and I still hate it because people defend it way too much when it's surprisingly bad.
Well, HO kinda goes out of the door losing its best sweeper but we still have Mega Gyarados so it isn't completely doomed? I don't really know how to feel about this take.
HO has many options! Don't worry about losing Hydreigon cause u have the GOAT Mega Ttar. And other really cool shit like NP Thundurus, SD Scolipede and many more. Hydreigon (and Cinderace if u are using the BU Set) just happened to allow their team to go completely insane after they demolished the other opponents team. That or they outright 6-0d on team preview.
Anyway with that sajd and done i wanted to just say that with the removal of Hydreigon the homie Crawdaunt can finally go nuts and u can stop worrying about clicking CC on hydreigon and once again focus on spamming banded crabhammers/aqua jet and knock off when u get free switch ins. T-Wave + Spikes Klefki and Daunt is looking very promising atm i gotta say.
Oh, lastly i wanted to thank everyone that plays this tier <3. We really appreciate all the activity in the tournaments and input! 2020 is hella cursed so stay safe out there.
Zygarde-10% is actually pretty heat. Seeing how Steela, Skarm, Empoleon, Rotom-Wash and (somewhat) Spdef Rachi are pretty common right now it's not really a big surprise that a ground type move that hits ground immune mons is a big plus right now. Letting you 2hko a lot of really prominent mons because they get grounded after a single Thousand Arrows. Not only that this mon has a great speed tier of 115, letting it outspeed Gengar, Starmie, Latias and many other speedy threats rn and usually grabbing the OHKO or a 2hko on them. This set is the set me and mareanie came up with. Dropping dragon stab for Glare, which allows you to cripple Venusaur-Mega and to a lesser extent Guss. Toxic lets you also basically ruin ground types and grass types (Bulu and Rillaboom come to mind) that would easily tank Thousand Arrows. Extreme Speed is basically necessary as it lets you clean up weakened mons like Alakazam who are faster than you. Here's a core to use with Zydoggo. Garde baits in steel types and u teleport on the predicted switch and bring in the doggo and go to town.
Main issues with Zydoge is that you are paper thin and you can easily be fucked by priority after hazard damage, being prone to toxic spikes is also lame. So watch out for mons like Weavile, Bisharp, Conk, QA Scizor, etc.
Some extra council news. Guardsweeper and Zneon have left the council, and I want to thank you for your hard work! With that being said, welcome both watermess and DJCTheChamp to the council team, with DJC also being added to the VR council! Happy to have you two!
NatDex UU --> NatDex OU
NatDex UU --> (NatDex OU)
NatDex UUBL --> NatDex OU
NatDex OU --> NatDex UUBL
NatDex OU --> NatDex UU
(NatDex OU) --> NatDex UU
