Personal thoughts, this is very sad. But Latias is actually back to being a menace and doesn't exactly have to run Dragonium anymore and can freely run Electrium to go back to deleting Steela and Skarm. Isn't this an absolute bruh moment and a half.
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Metagame National Dex UU Metagame Discussion - Porygon-Z Banned
- Thread starter N_Mareanie
- Start date
THE EVIL IS DEFEATED
Sad that we lost regular Tyranitar, band Tar was a champ and was a huge threat for fat teams not packing Keldeo, Urshifu or Hippowdon, but if it means being free of that busted mon it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
We can run non-balance teams without Urshifu or Keldeo, I repeat, we can run non balance teams without Urshifu or Keldeo! Urshifu is still amazing ofc, it's still the best scarfer in the tier and band is freed up a bit more now that it doesn't have to worry about getting too chipped by faster mons and getting blown past by +1 MTar EQ, especially from Ada MTar which you typically found on screens.
In other news, Latias can run sets other than Dragonium and is now officially back to being a threat to Celesteela balance. We're probably gonna see an uptick in Weavile or scarf Krookodile (who's actually p solid for offensive role compression) on balance teams. Dragonium will probably still be nice but Electrium to nail Celesteela, Skarmory and Empoleon is pretty neat.
Salamence also greatly appreciates not being checked by rocks Mega Tar, though at the same time the freedom to run 100+ scarfers not named Keldeo or Terrakion kinda sucks for it (though tbh are there even any other viable scarfers over base 100?). Mega Venusaur absolutely LOVES this too, now that the sand that hurts it's recovery is gone (EDIT: forgot about hippowdon the A+ mon lmao, though tbf not all hippos are sand stream for this very reason, especially on mega venu balances. hippo also doesn't 2hko mega venusaur like band tar does). Leech Seedless Mega Venu is a much more viable option now, though it also lost a reason to use Giga Drain so idt we'll see much change on that front. Heattom also loves being able to Defog on more rockers, as Rocks Tar/MTar were not good for it. It's also similar for Moltres, though it struggles a bit more vs rocks Hippo.
Overall a pretty positive change that opens up more teambuilding options. Losing reg tar, again, sucks, but I'll take what I can get.
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Welp, ig i'll make a quick post on the current meta since the tournament is now running.
Most of you probably already know that Ttar is gone, both forms at that. Which actually shifted the meta around quite a fair bit. Most notably that Urshifu is no longer needed on every team to deal with DD Mega Ttar, not to say Urshifu is worse not by a long shot. It's still a top 10 mon in the tier, and one of the best scarfers, if not the best scarfer. But it's other sets run some pretty steep competition with our other top tier Fighting type Infernape, which comes with arguably a better dual stab combination that allows it to blow past MegaSaur cores, priority and plenty of other sets ranging from SD/NP, Bulky Nape and Mixed.
Echoing what Nia said previously, but Latias is much much happier now. Not having to run Dragonium allows Latias to much more comfortably deal with Steela and to a much lesser extent Skarm. You can probably get away with choiced sets now as well, but more often than not those sets (scarf more than specs) can have some issues breaking some pretty key shit like Steela and Skarm. You can still run Dragonium since it's a literal nuke btw but i think the ability to break Steela is much more valuable to have.
These are a few mons that are pretty low atm that got better with the Ttar ban. Stored Power Reuniclus is extremely good and really appreciates one of the top pursuit trappers gone. As well as Chandelure which had a hard time breaking past teams with ttar if it was running sub cm. I personally started to run CM + Grassium to lure and kill ttar if i used Chandelure but that's not necessary anymore. Mega-Houndoom is just all around much better and can run a NP set much more comfortably, but still has competition with the tiers other offensive dark and fire types. Pidgeot-Mega is shit, but much less shit, rotom forms exist and so does empoleon, rachi and like 200 other things that can comfortably stomach it. Did i put it here just to clown on it? Perhaps.
GL in the tour tho ppl <3
Most of you probably already know that Ttar is gone, both forms at that. Which actually shifted the meta around quite a fair bit. Most notably that Urshifu is no longer needed on every team to deal with DD Mega Ttar, not to say Urshifu is worse not by a long shot. It's still a top 10 mon in the tier, and one of the best scarfers, if not the best scarfer. But it's other sets run some pretty steep competition with our other top tier Fighting type Infernape, which comes with arguably a better dual stab combination that allows it to blow past MegaSaur cores, priority and plenty of other sets ranging from SD/NP, Bulky Nape and Mixed.
Echoing what Nia said previously, but Latias is much much happier now. Not having to run Dragonium allows Latias to much more comfortably deal with Steela and to a much lesser extent Skarm. You can probably get away with choiced sets now as well, but more often than not those sets (scarf more than specs) can have some issues breaking some pretty key shit like Steela and Skarm. You can still run Dragonium since it's a literal nuke btw but i think the ability to break Steela is much more valuable to have.
These are a few mons that are pretty low atm that got better with the Ttar ban. Stored Power Reuniclus is extremely good and really appreciates one of the top pursuit trappers gone. As well as Chandelure which had a hard time breaking past teams with ttar if it was running sub cm. I personally started to run CM + Grassium to lure and kill ttar if i used Chandelure but that's not necessary anymore. Mega-Houndoom is just all around much better and can run a NP set much more comfortably, but still has competition with the tiers other offensive dark and fire types. Pidgeot-Mega is shit, but much less shit, rotom forms exist and so does empoleon, rachi and like 200 other things that can comfortably stomach it. Did i put it here just to clown on it? Perhaps.
GL in the tour tho ppl <3
Due to personal reasonings I will be stepping down as Tier Leader (as well as Council and VR Council). It was really fun while I was leading the tier, but I just can’t prioritize this any longer with all the different things happening in my personal life right now.
Huge congratz to !!11!1!! for being the new Tier Leader for the time I’ll be away. They have very good knowledge of the tier and is always open to questions.
I’m hoping I’ll be back somewhere in the future, but I can’t say when that will be. Peace.
Huge congratz to !!11!1!! for being the new Tier Leader for the time I’ll be away. They have very good knowledge of the tier and is always open to questions.
I’m hoping I’ll be back somewhere in the future, but I can’t say when that will be. Peace.
Damn ngl it feels weird being the only Tier Leader. Gonna miss Mareanie while he's gone for a bit. But i got council news! Sad to announce that watermess has dropped from council, but will be back from time to time to play! Thank you Mess for your great contributions to the tier and hope to see you back 6-0ing people with Comfey soon!
Following that news I want everyone to congratulate Niadev for being promoted to Council status in the tier! He has great knowledge on the tier and will be great help for tiering decisions going forward!a soul for a soul
Following that news I want everyone to congratulate Niadev for being promoted to Council status in the tier! He has great knowledge on the tier and will be great help for tiering decisions going forward!
LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOO
Hey everyone, the NatDex UU tiering council has decided to retest Grimmsnarl.
Grimmsnarl was initially quickbanned (along Cinderace, Hydreigon & Manaphy) back in June, a few days after the Tier Shifts occurred. Immediately after dropping the Screens set was used to no end, as the tier never had seen such a reliable Screen setter before. Grimmsnarl has Prankster + Taunt, meaning it still packs the fast Taunt that Azelf does, being able to Taunt other Taunt users so it can reliably get up its Screens. Grimmsnarl also has quite a decent amount of bulk, just like Xatu, meaning it doesn't have to resort to just acting as a suicide lead. Its bulk allows it to set up Screens multiple times in a game, often times without struggle. This lead many to believe, including the majority of the council, that Grimmsnarl would push Screens over the edge and make too many Pokemon in the tier overbearing such as Scolipede, Thundurus-Therian, Tyranitar-Mega and Scizor.
However, in this day and age, many of those Pokemon do not exist anymore. Scolipede and Thundurus-Therian both got quickbanned at a later date, while Tyranitar-Mega rose to NatDex OU in the latest Tier Shifts. It's also the case that Screens has seen consistent usage without Grimmsnarl being present, with Pokemon like Azelf, Klefki and even Xatu fulfilling the role perfectly fine, and they have not been deemed a problem to the current metagame in any shape or form.
Now of course, setting up Screens isn't the only thing Grimmsnarl can do. When it was present, sets like Choice Band, Bulk Up and LO AoA sets were all present and occasionally putting in work, but were never even considered to be too much for the metagame to handle, considering the tier packs enough solid switch ins and offensive pressure.
So because of the overall lower power level in the tier compared to a few months ago, as well as the fact that Screens aren't considered a problem even with Grimmsnarl in the tier, the council has decided to put up Grimmsnarl for a suspect test.
To achieve voting requisites, you must reach a minimum GXE of 75 with a minimum of 30 games played on the Pokemon Showdown! National Dex UU ladder. You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NDUUG. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NDUUG Baker. Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
The aspect being tested, Grimmsnarl, will be allowed on the ladder. Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned. Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied. The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until August 25th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4). And daily reminder that Flapple is S+ tier!
Tagging The Immortal to implement the changes to the ladder F.
unban not broken at all lol bye x
leaving a team for the bois tho
(click on sprites for team)
Just simple HO. EV's on Grimmsnarl makes it so you don't get OHKO'd by Choice Band Surging Strikes from Urshifu considering it'll crit through screens. Just lead Krook, set rocks, go Grimm, set screens, and then click buttons.
Also the ladder is more active than you'd think so getting reqs didn't even take that long, I support everyone to try out this tier!
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Grimmsnarl is flat out not broken, I will be voting Unban. Here's the team I used: https://pokepast.es/c330c646d9a6f20d
Reqs.
Attachments
Reqs
I believe that Grimm is unhealthy for the tier, so we should ban it.
(and I have a shitty winrate, GXE and elo thanks to my luck:/)
So, the detail of why Grimm is unhealthy imo :
-First, Choice Band set is actually awesome, as there's only a few SI to Dark/Fairy in this metagame.
- Second, Screen set are also insane on the meta, as they can help stuff like Gyara Z, Mence Z to setup and easily Snowball.
- Finally, there's also a niche set, the Bulk Up one. The offensive is actually insane and can sweep unprepared team, as the defensive Rest-Talk will be juste a pain to handle if you don't have Haze or something that can scare him.
To resume, this mon is actually unhealthy, as it force your build to be ultra offensive, or to run multiple defensive check, one for him and other to stuff like Mence or Gyara.
For me, this stuff deserve to remain in BL.
I believe that Grimm is unhealthy for the tier, so we should ban it.
(and I have a shitty winrate, GXE and elo thanks to my luck:/)
So, the detail of why Grimm is unhealthy imo :
-First, Choice Band set is actually awesome, as there's only a few SI to Dark/Fairy in this metagame.
- Second, Screen set are also insane on the meta, as they can help stuff like Gyara Z, Mence Z to setup and easily Snowball.
- Finally, there's also a niche set, the Bulk Up one. The offensive is actually insane and can sweep unprepared team, as the defensive Rest-Talk will be juste a pain to handle if you don't have Haze or something that can scare him.
To resume, this mon is actually unhealthy, as it force your build to be ultra offensive, or to run multiple defensive check, one for him and other to stuff like Mence or Gyara.
For me, this stuff deserve to remain in BL.
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Hi I'm trying to get into natdex uu but can somebody explain to me why Mega Absol isn't ranked on the VR? It's got a decent typing and magic bounce is a great anti lead. It also has great offenses that it can even go mixed
I dont know to much but i think Mega Absol is outclassed by better megas rn. Mega Venusaur is better defenselly and Mega Gardevoir ia better offenselly.. and if you want a Mega with magic bounce Mega Diancie is better rn..
Weavile is a generally superior option for fast dark type, being faster, much stronger (with band), having a much better dual STAB, not taking up the mega slot, and has reliable priority that lets it check notable offensive threats such as Salamence. It also faces stiff competition from Obstagoon, Bisharp, Mega Gyarados and Mega Sharpedo as an offensive dark type, all of which do either breaking or sweeping much better. Mega Absol also struggles vs Mega Venusaur, who takes nothing from any of it's attacks while Venu does over 75% with uninvested Sludge Bomb.
As an anti lead it fails to really stop that many notable rockers. Mega Diancie and Infernape live every hit and kill, Hippowdon walls it and can threaten it with Earthquake, Skarmory also fears nothing besides Fire Blast and can win a 1v1 easily, especially with Body Press sets, Mega Aerodactyl outspeeds and kills, Mamoswine kills with Earthquake while living every attack, and that's just the A ranks. The only notable rockers it can beat are Blissey and Terrakion, and it has to run Play Rough in the latter's case. Spikes stack HO is also rare nowadays due to most of it being run over by Scarf Urshifu after a single Latias switchin, so there's no spikes stack for it to anti-lead against (and all our suicide lead spikers beat Mega Absol anyways), screens don't care and just about every webs lead bar Shuckle beats mega absol regardless. All it can do is a risky switch in on a predict (which it has to be megad first to be able to attempt to begin with), which Mega Diancie can also do. Scarf Urshifu is also a very common lead due to being able to get momentum quickly with U-turn, so Mega Absol will often be forced out and thus be unable to mega evolve and deter hazards.
The only worthwhile niche it may have is as a swords dance stallbreaker, but even then, Quagsire walls it indefinitely, and it has to ditch priority to fit all the moves it would want. Mega Absol just simply isn't worth the mega slot when compared to other much more viable megas, or, heck, even other dark types, and is outclassed in basically everything it wants to do.
Reqs are in the pic attached. Any who, i feel Grimmsnarl is balanced within the tier. I think the general concern many people have about Grimmsnarl is that it's the most reliable screensetter and allows shit like Gyarados, Mence, Terrak, Scizor, etc to easily set up and blow through teams, but i think there are currently a few issues that is stopping that from happening in the concurrent metagame. I'll elaborate on the main reasoning cause i feel this specific topic could have a post made on it in the future (my hands hurt rn F):
Edit: Do not ban
Teams used:
https://pokepast.es/55d93c57ca721827
https://pokepast.es/5e840e6dcda26e7f
https://pokepast.es/e19760b193c23f37 (this team was the MVP btw, pretty sure Raichu won most if not every game i used it in lmfao)
Hyper Offense leads (Grimmsnarl) are fairly exploitable and easy to deal with due to Urshifu being so common. It forces a lot of HO leads which include Grimmsnarl to either come out later during a match or set up screens at the start and die, which means you are given a much more limited amount of time than in a normal game without Urshifu due to only having one chance to set them up. Also, due to Surging Strikes 100% crit ratio it allows urshifu to literally go right through screens, and it makes a good deal of abusers have to play much more careful and waste screens turns by switching to their Gyarados/Mence. Both of which are prone to getting U-Turned on regardless. Besides the Urshifu issue HO has considerably less abusers that Screens can abuse. Before Grimmsnarl was banned due to having Manaphy, Thundy forms, Scolipede and Ttar-Mega all abusing the extra bulky and invalidated every other playstyle and made it so that HO was considerably more viable and safe than every other playstyle. That sort of unhealthiness is not seen in the current metagame, in fact it's kind of the opposite BO/Balance are the best and most effective playstyles meaning unlike before Grimmsnarl hasn't molded the tier around this single playstyle. Tl;Dr i feel Grimmsnarl is fairly healthy, even pretty mid in fact.
Grimmsnarl currently has 1 set that makes it pretty good which is Twave + Taunt support. Being able to spam prankster twave lets Grimmsnarl support slow breakers that it is paired with blow through teams with ease. Band is alright but has some issues due to being fairly weak after you trick the band away. Screens is screens. Grimmsnarl is also a pretty good Lati check due to natural typing and decent bulk, but fails to really do shit that other darks can due to the lack of pursuit. In most scenarios i'd rather use AV Muk Alola/AV Bisharp if i want a Latias switch in that can trap.
Grimmsnarl currently has 1 set that makes it pretty good which is Twave + Taunt support. Being able to spam prankster twave lets Grimmsnarl support slow breakers that it is paired with blow through teams with ease. Band is alright but has some issues due to being fairly weak after you trick the band away. Screens is screens. Grimmsnarl is also a pretty good Lati check due to natural typing and decent bulk, but fails to really do shit that other darks can due to the lack of pursuit. In most scenarios i'd rather use AV Muk Alola/AV Bisharp if i want a Latias switch in that can trap.
Edit: Do not ban
Teams used:
https://pokepast.es/55d93c57ca721827
https://pokepast.es/5e840e6dcda26e7f
https://pokepast.es/e19760b193c23f37 (this team was the MVP btw, pretty sure Raichu won most if not every game i used it in lmfao)
Attachments
Confirming as NDUUG Venu Broken:
I believe that Grimmsnarl is not broken and will likely be voting to unban it unless convinced otherwise. While it is clearly a great screens setter I dont think screens as a playstyle is that overwhelming in this meta and I honestly dont think its much better than klefki at its job. I'm not so sure about other grimmsnarl sets but i feel like they cant be that good in a meta dominated by scizor, which can really take advantage of it. Finally I think mega venu and mega diancie should be on the radar for potential bannings. I dont feel venu too strong, I'm just annoyed that it walls so many fun mons (like breloom) but that isnt really a reason why we should ban smth.
I believe that Grimmsnarl is not broken and will likely be voting to unban it unless convinced otherwise. While it is clearly a great screens setter I dont think screens as a playstyle is that overwhelming in this meta and I honestly dont think its much better than klefki at its job. I'm not so sure about other grimmsnarl sets but i feel like they cant be that good in a meta dominated by scizor, which can really take advantage of it. Finally I think mega venu and mega diancie should be on the radar for potential bannings. I dont feel venu too strong, I'm just annoyed that it walls so many fun mons (like breloom) but that isnt really a reason why we should ban smth.
Confirming as Yugon.exe
Used this team to ladder: https://pokepast.es/74cc47c24086285e
Ban
Reasoning: I personally think it isn't overpowered, however it is fairly unhealthy for the tier considering while it can run it's dual screens set which allows HO to just completely mess you, it can also run a bulk up set (which isn't as good) but it can clean up in the end game. That being said, I still think there are bigger threats in the tier that should be banned like mega venu and once that's gone, mega diancie.
I should also probably mention Klefki is bae and I don't want my little spikes boi to have competition lol
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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/505336605624500226/745377263360540833/20200818_222003.jpg
Confirming as NDUUG INFXLTRATION
Confirming as NDUUG INFXLTRATION
I think we can all agree Grimmsnarl is really not broken in any shape or form, and even adds quite some healthiness in the tier as it is a very solid counter to the holy Latias. I don't even think the state of the metagame will change much, considering HO will still struggle with ScarfShifu still being present on most Balance and BO builds. Considering this, I think there's a Pokemon we should definitely look into as soon as possible after the Grimmsnarl retest; Mega Gardevoir.
I'll just get straight to the point, Mega Gardevoir is plain unhealthy and near uncounterable in the tier. Most people have been figuring this out in the last couple of weeks, and Mega Gardevoir has shown no sign at all of stopping its dominance in the tier. Mega Gardevoir's breaking power is absolutely insane and it literally only needs 3 moveslots to be as threatening as it is, being Hyper Voice / Psyshock / Mystical Fire. The 4th slot is often Focus Blast, Calm Mind or Taunt, but can be used for other interesting and viable options as well, such as Teleport, Will-O-Wisp and even Substitute variants (Psychic has also been a thing, considering it does way more to Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur than Psyshock). This allows Mega Gardevoir to put the opponent in an even more desire situation, as guessing the 4th moveslot wrong can put you in such a bad position (E.G. thinking it's Taunt M-Gardevoir, so you think you can keep your Celesteela / Jirachi a bit lower than normally. Suddenly it's Calm Mind, and your entire defensive counterplay is suddenly non existant.) To just show you can't run a Steel type to counter Mega Gardevoir, which many people seem to think, I will literally go over every ranked Steel type and explain the matchup vs Mega Gardevoir.
- Alright offensive check but it's such a risk switching this in, especially since it's pretty easy to just click Mystical Fire as the Mega Gardevoir user. Offensive sets don't even count as a good check considering Hyper Voice has a chance to straight 2HKO. 
- The problem with Celesteela is that it can not check Mega Gardevoir at all long term. Mystical Fire is doing clean 30 after Leftovers (and that's not even with rocks up) and Celesteela is SO reliant on Leech Seed recovery, which is just really easy to block in the current meta. And after like two switch ins max you get fucked anyway.
- Specially Defensive sets are the only true consistent counter to Mega Gardevoir, considering Mystical Fire doesn't do too much and you can easily Wish it off. Sadly GardeVile has been rising in usage so if Jirachi gets trapped or gets weakened enough it's very tricky. 
- Hyper Voice into Mystical Fire kills lol (unless you're SpDef, but it doesn't matter since you don't kill in return and it's a bad set anyway)
- 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 283-334 (104.4 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 277-327 (85.7 - 101.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- Klefki gets 2HKO'd by Mystical Fire after rocks 100% if it's fully SpDef. Not to mention Hyper Voice is still doing around 25%, Klefki has no recovery and no way to punish Mega Gardevoir from switching.
- not even showing calcs
- Again, it has no recovery at all so it's pretty easy to chip down to Focus Blast range (not to mention Hyper Voice into Focus Blast has a literal chance to kill.)
- Repeating myself here, but no recovery at all + easy to chip down means it's a very awful Mega Gardevoir check long term. Doesn't even take Hyper Voice well since it's a guaranteed 4HKO after rocks.
- No recovery, easy to chip, and again, Hyper Voice into Focus Blast has a chance to kill from full and it's really hard to keep this 'mon at 100 the entire game.
- Comes the closest to checking it after Jirachi, but has no recovery and is pretty easy to exploit in todays metagame and fairly hard to run.
- see: magneton
- 252 SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Gardevoir also has more opportunities to switch in than one might think. Lots of times it will abuse Pokemon like Latias and defensive Buzzwole as an opportunity to come in and just start wreaking havoc. Not to mention Mega Gardevoir pairs well with many pivots in the tier, like Infernape, Rotom-Heat & Rotom-Wash, and many others. This brings in Mega Gardevoir safely, and then just start clicking buttons lol.
At this point I don't even know if it's even worth it to go through a whole suspect for Mega Gardevoir, but that's up to the council.
tl;dr Mega Gardevoir is stupid, has (basically) no defensive counterplay and created an unhealthy and restrictive metagame.
I know this is in the middle of the Grimmsnarl suspect but if Grimm gets unbanned it won't affect anything I'm about to say.
Let's talk about Mega Gardevoir. I firmly believe that this Pokemon is the most broken Pokemon in the tier right now for a variety of reasons. With just dual stabs + Mystical Fire, it hits 95%+ of the metagame for neutral at worst, and thanks to an extremely powerful Hyper Voice there is not a lot of defensive counterplay for this thing. Celesteela is not hard at all to wear down due to a lack of reliable recovery and cannot come in on Mystical Fire more than once, (twice if it gets lucky), meaning it loses in the long term, Skarmory will be 2hkod by Mystical Fire even with max spdef, Scizor straight dies to Mystical Fire though it is otherwise a good offensive check, and every other steel bar Jirachi either doesn't resist one or both of it's STABs (Cobalion and Bisharp) or has even worse recovery than Celesteela (Empoleon, Mega Steelix, Bronzong), if any, and thus also loses in the long run. Blissey, you say? Blissey requires barely any chip damage to 2hko with Psyshock. 21% is about all you need to do it 100% reliably but even 12% is enough to make it a shaky switchin. All of this is without mentioning that Mega Gardevoir 1v1s it with Taunt regardless.
**Middle of draft comment**
N_Mareanie Greninjad me with their own post on Mega Gardevoir lmao, I swear this wasn't planned. His steels list is more comprehensive than mine so check his out.
Oh yeah, did I mention this thing has a spare moveslot to fit basically whatever it wants? Teleport pairs excellently with trappers such as Weavile or Magneton, Taunt, as mentioned, 1v1s Blissey, and Calm Mind turns slower Pokemon into dust. It can even run Focus Blast to bag Empoleon and Mega Steelix (though neither have reliable recovery so they'll be put into Mystical or Psyshock range eventually), or Will-o-wisp to completely eliminate Celesteela's non Leech Seed recovery. The long and short of it is that this thing has very little reliable defensive counterplay. Sure, you can revenge kill it, but by then it's probably killed something, or at worst put something in such a state that the rest of the team can blow right through it.
Mega Gardevoir gets a surprising amount of opportunities to come in too, with it's high special bulk and acceptable defensive typing allowing it to switch in on Latias that have used their Electrium, switch in on Rotom forms once or twice assuming there is no Thunder Wave, or even via the multiple effective pivot move users we have, such as Blissey, Heattom, Urshifu, and Scizor. It's special bulk also means, in a similar fashion to gen 6 Hoopa-Unbound in OU, it can usually take at least one special hit and retaliate, though this is rarely necessary in Mega Gardevoir's case. It's high speed also allows it to take advantage of multiple slower Pokemon in the tier.
I've heard people compare it to Mega Diancie but frankly the only thing MDia has over Mega Gardevoir is speed and higher physical bulk. Mega Gardevoir's speed is already more than high enough for what it wants to do, it has a much more useful defensive typing to come in with, has way more immediate power, and, most importantly, Mega Diancie cannot threaten the entire defensive metagame in 4 moveslots. Mega Gardevoir does it in 3 moveslots, with a 4th moveslot to basically pick how it breaks defensive cores down. As someone who has used and faced both Pokemon, Mega Gardevoir is far more consistent and effective.
In order to reliably deal with Mega Garde defensively, you have to run Jirachi (which isn't even 100% reliable for reasons I will detail further down), multiple defensive steels (which basically corners you into a balance playstyle, restricting creativity) or by running Blissey + Weavile, which is risky if they switch out after doing ~40% with Psyshock, putting you in range to die the next time Bliss comes in and forcing you to make a very risky predict to avoid losing a mon. Forcing teams to run Jirachi or be multi steel balance is oppressive, very restrictive and frankly the opposite of the definition of healthy. Scizor is also a Pokemon that often forces multiple defensive checks but a) Scizor's got waaaay more checks and b) Sciz is bordering on broken itself.
Oh yes, let's talk about Pursuit trappers. The only trapper in the tier that can kill Mega Garde from full with 80 BP pursuit is Band Weavile. Scarf Krookodile needs it to come into rocks 3 times or otherwise take 30% chip, Bisharp (which doesn't even run pursuit aside from on Assault Vest sets) needs to get MGarde into Sucker range or it is simply not a threat to it, and Mega Aerodactyl has the exact same problem as Krookodile. This separates it immensely from Latias, who loses to every single one of these other Pursuit Trappers. Latias also needs to boost to be a threat to Balance in the first place, while Mega Gardevoir has no such obligation.
Pivoting on Mega Gardevoir is just a nasty prediction game that the Mega Gardevoir user has an overwhelming advantage in. One wrong predict on your part and Mega Gardevoir either kills something that turn or the turn after if the steel is too worn down. If they predict wrong, big deal, they just switch out and try again later. Predicting right will only ever stave off the inevitable vs Mega Gardevoir. It wouldn't be so bad if the meta was still like a few months ago where it was too offensive for breakers like MGarde to come in repeatedly, but this isn't the case anymore. Mega Garde often comes in 4-5 times in any game that isn't against Hyper Offense.
Finally, let me tell you about a little core called Mega Gardevoir + Weavile. Your Jirachi? Pursuit trapped into Mystical Fire range at absolute worst (for the Garde user). Blissey? Chipped into range by Pursuit. This core renders all counterplay bar double defensive steel moot in the long run. Honestly, Magneton+Mega Garde is barely worth mentioning in comparison, but it takes the entire thing of having to wear down Celesteela or predict the Scizor switchin out of the equation entirely. If you want to trap absolutely every one of it's defensive checks besides Blissey in one slot, you can run EQ scarf Alolem, but I don't really need to explain how that's a subpar option, do I?
Overall, Mega Gardevoir exerts an obscene amount of pressure on the defensive metagame, beating all of it's defensive checks usually by switchin number 3. The Mega Gardevoir user in a Balance vs Balance matchup (or any matchup really besides HO vs <other playstyle>) will always have the advantage, and this is basically the definition of broken.
And now for "Debunking arguments with Niadev":
"But Mega Diancie also 2hkos the entire meta!" - Oh right, I totally forgot about 5 moveslot Mega Diancie, my bad. In all seriousness, if Mega Diancie is broken we can ban it further down the line. This argument does absolutely nothing to argue against Mega Gardevoir being broken anyways and I'm fairly sure it qualifies as a non sequitur. See the section further up on Mega Diancie for more details on why Mega Gardevoir is better.
"Just outplay it!" - Yes, this is a legitimate "argument" I've heard used to defend it. It is extremely flawed as it goes both ways. Great, you predicted it to Mystical Fire and went to Infernape to resist it, but they predicted your predict and Hyper Voiced instead and now you're still down a mon. Oh you predicted that so you went to Celesteela anyways? Nah they predicted that too and Mystical Fired your Steela. Great, now it's 2hkod the next time it comes in :D. This is a total non argument and if this is legitimately your only point against MGarde being broken, I strongly suggest reconsidering your position on Mega Gardevoir.
I've also heard the argument "just use <insert steel here>" but like half this post covers that so there's no point on covering it again here.
To wrap this all off, while I have yet to actually start laddering for reqs, from what I have seen of it in other people's games, it really isn't broken or problematic in the slightest. It does absolutely nothing to resolve any of the issues HO faces, namely it's issues with Scarf Urshifu and Defog Rotom-Heat. If I get reqs I will probably be voting Unban.
Let's talk about Mega Gardevoir. I firmly believe that this Pokemon is the most broken Pokemon in the tier right now for a variety of reasons. With just dual stabs + Mystical Fire, it hits 95%+ of the metagame for neutral at worst, and thanks to an extremely powerful Hyper Voice there is not a lot of defensive counterplay for this thing. Celesteela is not hard at all to wear down due to a lack of reliable recovery and cannot come in on Mystical Fire more than once, (twice if it gets lucky), meaning it loses in the long term, Skarmory will be 2hkod by Mystical Fire even with max spdef, Scizor straight dies to Mystical Fire though it is otherwise a good offensive check, and every other steel bar Jirachi either doesn't resist one or both of it's STABs (Cobalion and Bisharp) or has even worse recovery than Celesteela (Empoleon, Mega Steelix, Bronzong), if any, and thus also loses in the long run. Blissey, you say? Blissey requires barely any chip damage to 2hko with Psyshock. 21% is about all you need to do it 100% reliably but even 12% is enough to make it a shaky switchin. All of this is without mentioning that Mega Gardevoir 1v1s it with Taunt regardless.
**Middle of draft comment**
N_Mareanie Greninjad me with their own post on Mega Gardevoir lmao, I swear this wasn't planned. His steels list is more comprehensive than mine so check his out.
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 178-210 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 144-170 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 146-174 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 283-334 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Celesteela: 144-170 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir-Mega Mystical Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 146-174 (41.2 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Oh yeah, did I mention this thing has a spare moveslot to fit basically whatever it wants? Teleport pairs excellently with trappers such as Weavile or Magneton, Taunt, as mentioned, 1v1s Blissey, and Calm Mind turns slower Pokemon into dust. It can even run Focus Blast to bag Empoleon and Mega Steelix (though neither have reliable recovery so they'll be put into Mystical or Psyshock range eventually), or Will-o-wisp to completely eliminate Celesteela's non Leech Seed recovery. The long and short of it is that this thing has very little reliable defensive counterplay. Sure, you can revenge kill it, but by then it's probably killed something, or at worst put something in such a state that the rest of the team can blow right through it.
Mega Gardevoir gets a surprising amount of opportunities to come in too, with it's high special bulk and acceptable defensive typing allowing it to switch in on Latias that have used their Electrium, switch in on Rotom forms once or twice assuming there is no Thunder Wave, or even via the multiple effective pivot move users we have, such as Blissey, Heattom, Urshifu, and Scizor. It's special bulk also means, in a similar fashion to gen 6 Hoopa-Unbound in OU, it can usually take at least one special hit and retaliate, though this is rarely necessary in Mega Gardevoir's case. It's high speed also allows it to take advantage of multiple slower Pokemon in the tier.
I've heard people compare it to Mega Diancie but frankly the only thing MDia has over Mega Gardevoir is speed and higher physical bulk. Mega Gardevoir's speed is already more than high enough for what it wants to do, it has a much more useful defensive typing to come in with, has way more immediate power, and, most importantly, Mega Diancie cannot threaten the entire defensive metagame in 4 moveslots. Mega Gardevoir does it in 3 moveslots, with a 4th moveslot to basically pick how it breaks defensive cores down. As someone who has used and faced both Pokemon, Mega Gardevoir is far more consistent and effective.
In order to reliably deal with Mega Garde defensively, you have to run Jirachi (which isn't even 100% reliable for reasons I will detail further down), multiple defensive steels (which basically corners you into a balance playstyle, restricting creativity) or by running Blissey + Weavile, which is risky if they switch out after doing ~40% with Psyshock, putting you in range to die the next time Bliss comes in and forcing you to make a very risky predict to avoid losing a mon. Forcing teams to run Jirachi or be multi steel balance is oppressive, very restrictive and frankly the opposite of the definition of healthy. Scizor is also a Pokemon that often forces multiple defensive checks but a) Scizor's got waaaay more checks and b) Sciz is bordering on broken itself.
Oh yes, let's talk about Pursuit trappers. The only trapper in the tier that can kill Mega Garde from full with 80 BP pursuit is Band Weavile. Scarf Krookodile needs it to come into rocks 3 times or otherwise take 30% chip, Bisharp (which doesn't even run pursuit aside from on Assault Vest sets) needs to get MGarde into Sucker range or it is simply not a threat to it, and Mega Aerodactyl has the exact same problem as Krookodile. This separates it immensely from Latias, who loses to every single one of these other Pursuit Trappers. Latias also needs to boost to be a threat to Balance in the first place, while Mega Gardevoir has no such obligation.
Pivoting on Mega Gardevoir is just a nasty prediction game that the Mega Gardevoir user has an overwhelming advantage in. One wrong predict on your part and Mega Gardevoir either kills something that turn or the turn after if the steel is too worn down. If they predict wrong, big deal, they just switch out and try again later. Predicting right will only ever stave off the inevitable vs Mega Gardevoir. It wouldn't be so bad if the meta was still like a few months ago where it was too offensive for breakers like MGarde to come in repeatedly, but this isn't the case anymore. Mega Garde often comes in 4-5 times in any game that isn't against Hyper Offense.
Finally, let me tell you about a little core called Mega Gardevoir + Weavile. Your Jirachi? Pursuit trapped into Mystical Fire range at absolute worst (for the Garde user). Blissey? Chipped into range by Pursuit. This core renders all counterplay bar double defensive steel moot in the long run. Honestly, Magneton+Mega Garde is barely worth mentioning in comparison, but it takes the entire thing of having to wear down Celesteela or predict the Scizor switchin out of the equation entirely. If you want to trap absolutely every one of it's defensive checks besides Blissey in one slot, you can run EQ scarf Alolem, but I don't really need to explain how that's a subpar option, do I?
Overall, Mega Gardevoir exerts an obscene amount of pressure on the defensive metagame, beating all of it's defensive checks usually by switchin number 3. The Mega Gardevoir user in a Balance vs Balance matchup (or any matchup really besides HO vs <other playstyle>) will always have the advantage, and this is basically the definition of broken.
And now for "Debunking arguments with Niadev":
"But Mega Diancie also 2hkos the entire meta!" - Oh right, I totally forgot about 5 moveslot Mega Diancie, my bad. In all seriousness, if Mega Diancie is broken we can ban it further down the line. This argument does absolutely nothing to argue against Mega Gardevoir being broken anyways and I'm fairly sure it qualifies as a non sequitur. See the section further up on Mega Diancie for more details on why Mega Gardevoir is better.
"Just outplay it!" - Yes, this is a legitimate "argument" I've heard used to defend it. It is extremely flawed as it goes both ways. Great, you predicted it to Mystical Fire and went to Infernape to resist it, but they predicted your predict and Hyper Voiced instead and now you're still down a mon. Oh you predicted that so you went to Celesteela anyways? Nah they predicted that too and Mystical Fired your Steela. Great, now it's 2hkod the next time it comes in :D. This is a total non argument and if this is legitimately your only point against MGarde being broken, I strongly suggest reconsidering your position on Mega Gardevoir.
I've also heard the argument "just use <insert steel here>" but like half this post covers that so there's no point on covering it again here.
To wrap this all off, while I have yet to actually start laddering for reqs, from what I have seen of it in other people's games, it really isn't broken or problematic in the slightest. It does absolutely nothing to resolve any of the issues HO faces, namely it's issues with Scarf Urshifu and Defog Rotom-Heat. If I get reqs I will probably be voting Unban.
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m00la
I COULD BE BANNED!
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