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Metagame National Dex UU Metagame Discussion - Porygon-Z Banned
- Thread starter N_Mareanie
- Start date
N_Mareanie has returned as Tier Leader!
How that Grimmsnarl has been unbanned (to no ones surprise), we'll wait patiently for shifts. Suspected drops have been crazy so far, mainly 
Melmetal, 
Serperior, 
Blacephalon, 
Tyranitar & 
Mega Tyranitar, as well as losing likely losing 
Skarmory. This would of course shake up the tier a whole lot, while still having Pokemon that are pretty controversial at the moment in Mega Gardevoir.
Since Grimmsnarl's unban won't shake up the tier that much at all, I wanted to ask the community how they currently feel about
Mega Gardevoir, and if people are up for either a quickvote, suspect test or do nothing at all. The council is actively discussing, but with such a big shift coming up it might be difficult to take action on Mega Gardevoir soon, and any action might have to be postponed due to the ginormous shifts.
Also want to say I've been loving the tier so far and ladder has helped us grow so much more rapidly than before! Have an amazing day everyone!
Melmetal, Serperior, Blacephalon, Tyranitar & Mega Tyranitar, as well as losing likely losing Skarmory. This would of course shake up the tier a whole lot, while still having Pokemon that are pretty controversial at the moment in Mega Gardevoir.Since Grimmsnarl's unban won't shake up the tier that much at all, I wanted to ask the community how they currently feel about
Mega Gardevoir, and if people are up for either a quickvote, suspect test or do nothing at all. The council is actively discussing, but with such a big shift coming up it might be difficult to take action on Mega Gardevoir soon, and any action might have to be postponed due to the ginormous shifts.Also want to say I've been loving the tier so far and ladder has helped us grow so much more rapidly than before! Have an amazing day everyone!
I’d say wait a couple weeks after shifts, when the metagame has settled, vote on M-Garde and M-Tar (assuming the latter is still as controversial as it was before rising)
This is my main concern with the tier at the moment. I'm not going to speak to the drops just yet (although theorymonning Serp sets is proving to be pretty fun), as we are still not sure what is dropping 100% and what isn't. The potential of losing Skarm also has ramifications on both Tyranitar and Melmetal being good, and I don't really want to guess around what's gonna happen with that, so I'm gonna leave it alone for now.
Mega Gardevior should absolutely be the council's top priority (assuming none of the drops turn out to be quickbannable). This thing is absolutely ridiculous and has ways around virtually every form of defensive counterplay in the tier. The unpredictable fourth move slot (Calm Mind is by far the most dangerous in my opinion, but other options such as Taunt, Focus Blast, Teleport, Will-O-Wisp, and Psychic are good too) means that there are like two good checks to every Gardevior set, those being Specially Defensive Jirachi and Bronzong. Both of which get easily Pursuit Trapped by Weavile or Krookodile (or Tyranitar potentially), and Bronzong is also very threatened by Magneton, which also chips Specially Defensive Jirachi pretty well. Everything else loses to one set or another, as Mareanie went over in the earlier post. The linearity of Gardevior's checks and Pseudo Checks also make building around what it doesn't beat very easy; virtually every single Gardevior answer loses to Nasty Plot Infernape, for example, which, in my experience, has made for a dangerous pairing between the two. Pivoting into Mega Gardevior is also very easy; things such as Rotom-H, Moltres, Infernape, Rotom-W, Scizor, and other miscellaneous pivots makes Mega Gardevior extremely dangerous. It's very easy to build a team that covers the very, very few things that Mega Gardevior struggles with, and it can easily be customized depending on what you need for your team. Mega Gardevior is extremely unhealthy for this tier. I would not be opposed to a quickban in the slightest, but I think that a suspect would be more appropriate overall.
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Personally I prefer the idea of Mega Gardevoir being suspected over quickbanned (as we do have a decent amount of offensive and short term defensive counterplay), but am not opposed to a quickban at all if the community and the rest of the council feels that way, as there have recently been more and more ways discovered to push Mega Garde even further, and at this point it's arguably more problematic than when we started to notice it was a problem just before the Grimmsnarl suspect, thanks to the discovery of the infamous WeavGarde core, people finding more and more ways to use the spare moveslot, and the return of Focus Blast Mega Gardevoir to nail the few (notably otherwise somewhat niche) Pokemon that can deal with Dual STABs + Mystical + util move.
One thing to consider is that NDPL is coming up soon, and as it appears we are getting representation in it (and could expand our playerbase as a result), it would be ideal if the meta was in a healthy state by the time round 1 begins, though that is not helped by the potential tier shifts being crazy. Manager signups are almost over, leaving only player signups and drafting left before round 1, so we may have about 2 weeks (though I am not very experienced with how PLs work so forgive me if this is inaccurate). If this is considered a pressing matter, I would not be opposed to quickbanning Mega Gardevoir and retesting it later, as we recently did for Grimmsnarl (the retesting part anyways). That being said, Mega Gardevoir does not make the meta unplayable imo, and the meta is still fun even with it in the tier, so waiting to suspect it and allowing the first few rounds of NDPL to play out shouldn't lead to a negative perception of the tier.
Assuming the potential drops (that aren't obvious QBs *cough cough* Melmetal) don't completely upend the meta, I don't personally believe there's much reason to put off a Mega Gardevoir suspect (or quickban) any further. Mega Tar may be a problem with that but we've had it before, we know it's busted, and so we can QB and retest that pretty safely. I won't make another essay on MTar until it drops but tl;dr while defensive Buzzwole being good is sucky for it and gives BO an option other than run one of 3 scarfers, the meta is very good at punishing Urshifu now thanks to all the RH urshi checks so it kind of evens out, we might lose Skarmory so Balance would have less options for it than before and Buzz doesn't even fit on every BO team, in the same way that Hippo/Swampert/Skarm don't fit on every Balance team, so it'd be just as oppressive as last time.
TIER CHANGES
Losses
NatDex UU --> NatDex OU
Natdex UUBL --> NatDex OU
Drops
NatDex OU --> NatDex UU
NatDex OU --> NatDex UUBL
Kris The Immortal
Losses
NatDex UU --> NatDex OU Natdex UUBL --> NatDex OUDrops
NatDex OU --> NatDex UU NatDex OU --> NatDex UUBLKris The Immortal
Skarmory 
We traded Skarm for Zarude. That's a GameStop trade if I've ever seen one.
We lost Skarmory in return for Zarude. So basically, we gained nothing.
Also please stop using mega bee, it's absolute garbage. Zera being 10% usage despite being pretty bad was pretty obvious given how NDOU played out with koko
The biggest travesty, however, is that Obstagoon is 0.5% usage. ig it's fair seeing as RH Buzzwole is so good rn, but Buzzwole is... somehow only 4.1% usage... despite being A+ material...
Also please stop using mega bee, it's absolute garbage. Zera being 10% usage despite being pretty bad was pretty obvious given how NDOU played out with koko
The biggest travesty, however, is that Obstagoon is 0.5% usage. ig it's fair seeing as RH Buzzwole is so good rn, but Buzzwole is... somehow only 4.1% usage... despite being A+ material...
#1 Scizor - 27.48605%
#2 Blissey - 19.41152%
#3 Urshifu-Rapid-Strike: - 16.58557%
#4 Rotom-Heat - 15.88219%(
#5 Skarmory - 14.79725%)
#6 Latias - 14.25599%
#7 Amoonguss - 12.14224%
#8 Krookodile - 12.04075%
#9 Diancie-Mega - 11.45673%
#10 Venusaur-Mega - 10.61790%
#11 Zeraora - 10.34345%
#12 Hippowdon - 9.94536%
#13 Celesteela - 9.86496%#14 Gardevoir-Mega - 9.79770%
#15 Bisharp - 9.57204%
#16 Salamence - 9.37512%
#17 Tapu Bulu - 8.94944%
#18 Weavile - 8.51590%
#19 Breloom - 7.93126%
#20 Rotom-Wash - 7.82716%
#21 Gyarados-Mega - 7.41013%
#22 Jirachi - 7.29201%
#23 Alomomola - 7.27780%
#24 Grimmsnarl - 7.21497%
#25 Altaria-Mega - 6.34894%
#26 Xurkitree - 6.15187%
#27 Quagsire - 6.03311%
#28 Swampert - 5.94821%
#29 Infernape - 5.39795%
#30 Hatterene - 5.29702%
#31 Azelf - 5.21064%
#32 Darmanitan - 5.19117%
#33 Moltres - 5.18440%
#34 Chandelure - 5.09941%
#35 Sableye-Mega - 4.86180%
#36 Dracozolt - 4.81059%
#37 Forretress - 4.77550%
#38 Stakataka - 4.71058%
#39 Beedrill-Mega - 4.70454%
#40 Magneton - 4.68637%
#41 Starmie - 4.57153%
#42 Mandibuzz - 4.56926%This means a hypothetical RU would have... some crazy stuff.
Gyarados
Keldeo
Muk-Alola
Togekiss
Manectric-Mega
Buzzwole
Empoleon
Porygon-Z
Feraligatr
Terrakion
Klefki
Conkeldurr
Sharpedo-Mega
Suicune
Primarina
Crawdaunt
Mamoswine
Sylveon
Reuniclus
Aerodactyl-Mega
Mimikyu
Steelix-Mega
Nihilego
Haxorus
Celebi
Pidgeot-Mega
Absol-Mega
Crobat
Aggron-Mega
Nidoking
Entei
Chesnaught
Tentacruel
Diggersby
Houndoom-Mega (Drought is banned)
Cobalion
Doublade
Lucario
Venomoth
Gligar
Ninetales-Alola (Aurora Veil is banned)
Froslass
Heracross
Linoone
Talonflame
Mienshao
Zoroark
Durant
Tornadus
Meloetta
SharpedoAnd some fun Gen 8 mons, like
and the combination of 
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Not the right thread for this discussion, and I wouldn't have any hope for a NatDex RU to be created anytime soon. There is a discord (https://discord.gg/PUCEQba) for fun but nothing much will be done with it for now.
The UU council will be voting on Mega Gardevoir.
As many of you already know, Mega Gardevoir has been dominating the tier in the last couple of weeks. Not only does it hit the tier within just three moveslots (Psychic/Fairy/Fire), it also has an insane splashable 4th moveslot that allows it to either break through or heavily cripple its checks in the tier, making consistent counterplay quite hard to find in the tier. Even Jirachi, the most popular Mega Gardevoir check in the tier, has to remain high health at all times to not lose to Calm Mind variants, and loses to the popular Teleport Mega Gardevoir + Pursuit Weavile that's been running around on ladder lately. For more in depth reasonings, read either Niadevs or my post earlier in the thread.
While the majority of the council would rather prefer a proper suspect, NDPL is coming up and removing such a big element in the tier right at the start of the tour is definitely something we'd rather avoid. This is why Mega Gardevoir will receive its own proper retest after NDPL is over.
If Mega Gardevoir is indeed banned this week, this gives the community and the council more time to learn the new meta before NDPL than if Mega Gardevoir would be banned via suspect.
The voting will end this Sunday if results aren't in at an earlier date. Have a nice day!
Gardevoir-Mega has been banned from National Dex UU with a 4-2 majority..
Reminder that it will get its proper suspect in the future.
Discuss the new meta and potential influence this ban has on the tier!
Kris The Immortal thanks so much if u guys could implement this lol
Brief Meta Analysis This post is prolly poorly made F, it's 10:22 PM and I wanted to kinda give my first impressions. Once again NDUU has entered one of those moments where the tier is shaken up a bit due to some changes. The biggest change is definitely the Skarm rise which has definitely given many physical threats a much easier time to do their job.
Act 1:1 The Buzzwole Saga:
Skarmory leaving means most teams are looking for a mon that can replicate what it can do; Buzzwole fits that niche very very well. Buzzwole offers so much when it comes to being a good wall since 107/139 + Bug Fighting typing lets you comfortably come in on Mega Gyarados, Weavile, Krookodile, Scizor (if it's not clicking DWB), Band Tapu Bulu and many more. While being able to act as a formidable wincon for Stall and BO with BU + Roost. Due to the certain state of the metagame having Rocky Helmet is extremely viable for getting free chip on Scizor clicking u-turn and Urshifu clicking anything, and allowing hazards rack up overtime for even more chip as they come back in. Buzzwole can run offensive sets too. Those sets in (mainly buginium) really benefit from Skarm's departure and allows Buzzwole to punch huge holes in teams due to how well it can snowball due to Beast Boost.
Act 1:2 The Diggersby Saga:
Man, lord have mercy on this tiers poor soul. Skarm leaving has made Diggersby an absolute demon. Return + EQ + Knock allows Diggersby to easily blow through most defensive cores with 0 issue. Due to the meta being in a Balance/Semi-Stall kind of meta Diggersby finds it very easy to come in from a pivot and just click a stab option. Diggersby quite literally 2hkos the entire metagame besides Celesteela whom of which loses to Diggers once it gets knocked and loses lefties. You're pretty much forced to run Buzzwole + Physdef Steela to force a 50/50, but if the bunny gets the 50/50 right and knocks Steela then it's game over cause it gets 2hko'd by return every switch in after. Diggersby vs Offense easier to handle, but again literally nothing that is ran on offense switches into Diggersby so you're kinda force to either take above half, sac a mon or get in via a pivoting option/double. Not to mention it has Quick Attack which is deceptively powerful coming off of a CB + Huge Power boosted mon. Tl;dr Diggersby is cracked.
There are some other mons that got better like Gyarados, Bulu, Scarf Rachi, Urshifu (kind of) and Weavile. But I wanted to post these 2 first cause they were the 2 that caught my eye instantly. Both on paper and in practice.
It's me, back again with another Niadev Essay. Important: The following is my opinion and does not reflect the opinion of the council
Alright, so I've been building more volt turn teams and I've been beginning to notice a reoccuring pattern with Future Sight + Teleport Slowking. This thing + any CB wallbreaker that dislikes Buzzwole, Mega Venu or Amoonguss is a nightmare for anything to face. Hell, it goes good with any strong physical wallbreaker period. Future Sight + Teleport (which I have dubbed "FuturePort") is basically a guaranteed kill for the breaker, with a free in to boot. Very few of our dark types switch into physical wallbreakers to any degree of success, with about the only noteworthy ones being Mega Sableye and Mandibuzz, which both get their faces caved in by... every notable CB mon bar Zygarde-10. Conk fortunately can't touch Mega Sab but that's about the only physical wall that beats Conk+Slowking.
As you can see, Future Sight puts every notable physdef wall not named PhysDef Steela or Mega Steelix either into range of the breaker or into the ground, and neither are very reliable answers to the best wallbreakers we have. CB Urshifu, SD/CB Infernape, CB Diggersby, CB Buzzwole, SD/CB Bulu (though superpower CB struggles vs physdef steela), and Conkeldurr (Obstagoon can't reliably beat mega lix without CC) all 2hko (or cripple in Diggers vs Steela's case) these two, and those are just the A ranks. CB Crawdaunt in particular loves that Future Sight puts Primarina in range of CB Crabhammer and OHKOs or very nearly OHKOs Urshi/Keldeo, as well as the Teleport support.
It's not like you can even double into something to threaten the wallbreaker vs Slowking either because Teleport is guaranteed momentum, and they'll just bring in another offensive mon, say, a scarfer, and watch as the turn after something eats a Future Sight anyways. Your only hope is to make a very risky hard switch into Weavile or Krook on the hard switch, begging to RNGesus for Scald to not burn should they predict you to do that and go for the Scald, and attempt to pursuit trap Slowking, but Weavile needs rocks up (assuming you somehow knock off the boots) to reliably OHKO Slowking with Pursuit, and Krookodile does 60% max as Slowking switches out, half of which gets healed off by Regenerator anyways, and choice locked pursuit is super easy for most wallbreakers it's paired with to abuse. Odds are Future Sight will be up too so ultimately you still have to sack at least one mon anyways. There's also no guarantee Slowking won't just decide to run Colbur Berry specifically for this scenario, and escape at least once to enable the breaker to wreak havoc once again.
So, what are your other options for dealing with these cores aside from the very risky and unreliable hard in Pursuit mon approach I mentioned before? All you can really do is keep up offensive pressure to stop Slowking from getting both Future Sight + Teleport in, or just repeatedly double into a mon that threatens Slowking, which skews the MU heavily in the Slowking user's favour. You can also run Protect on all your physical walls and hard switch them into Slowking with a Protect the next turn to stop the Future Sight hitting (EDIT: no you can't lmao, future sight goes through protect), but dedicating an entire moveslot to avoid being annihilated by Slowking + phys breaker seems a little bit overcentralising to me, especially as Mega Venusaur is the only phys wall that can afford the slot in the first place (maybe malt but then you're seriously nerfing your team utillity). And even then, there's no guarantee the Slowking user won't just switchin the mega venu answer on the protect anyways.
Slowking is by no means a monster that 2hkos the entire tier, but the support it provides with FuturePort is absolutely insane, and by proxy makes a plethora of mons either outright broken or bordering on broken. I'd rather wait to see how Slowking teams play out during the tour before doing anything significant but I get the feeling that if we were to ban the wallbreakers that abuse this support, we'd have no physical wallbreakers left and we'd spend the entire rest of the gen suspecting mons that abuse Slowking.
Also, Diggersby is def something I and probably other council members will be keeping an eye on now that we've realised CB is actually borderline impossible to come in on. Fortunately it doesn't have as many ins as Mega Garde, is RKd by a fair larger number of mons, and certainly doesn't have as many options to cripple it's checks, but its sheer power is bonkers, not to mention CB Quick Attack chunks basically every offensive mon.
Alright, so I've been building more volt turn teams and I've been beginning to notice a reoccuring pattern with Future Sight + Teleport Slowking. This thing + any CB wallbreaker that dislikes Buzzwole, Mega Venu or Amoonguss is a nightmare for anything to face. Hell, it goes good with any strong physical wallbreaker period. Future Sight + Teleport (which I have dubbed "FuturePort") is basically a guaranteed kill for the breaker, with a free in to boot. Very few of our dark types switch into physical wallbreakers to any degree of success, with about the only noteworthy ones being Mega Sableye and Mandibuzz, which both get their faces caved in by... every notable CB mon bar Zygarde-10. Conk fortunately can't touch Mega Sab but that's about the only physical wall that beats Conk+Slowking.
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 222-264 (60.9 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 428-506 (102.3 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Amoonguss: 312-368 (72.3 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 169-201 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria-Mega: 124-147 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 114-135 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 48-57 (13.5 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 63-75 (15.8 - 18.8%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Buzzwole: 428-506 (102.3 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Amoonguss: 312-368 (72.3 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 169-201 (40.2 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 123-145 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria-Mega: 124-147 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Primarina: 114-135 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix-Mega: 48-57 (13.5 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Celesteela: 63-75 (15.8 - 18.8%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
As you can see, Future Sight puts every notable physdef wall not named PhysDef Steela or Mega Steelix either into range of the breaker or into the ground, and neither are very reliable answers to the best wallbreakers we have. CB Urshifu, SD/CB Infernape, CB Diggersby, CB Buzzwole, SD/CB Bulu (though superpower CB struggles vs physdef steela), and Conkeldurr (Obstagoon can't reliably beat mega lix without CC) all 2hko (or cripple in Diggers vs Steela's case) these two, and those are just the A ranks. CB Crawdaunt in particular loves that Future Sight puts Primarina in range of CB Crabhammer and OHKOs or very nearly OHKOs Urshi/Keldeo, as well as the Teleport support.
It's not like you can even double into something to threaten the wallbreaker vs Slowking either because Teleport is guaranteed momentum, and they'll just bring in another offensive mon, say, a scarfer, and watch as the turn after something eats a Future Sight anyways. Your only hope is to make a very risky hard switch into Weavile or Krook on the hard switch, begging to RNGesus for Scald to not burn should they predict you to do that and go for the Scald, and attempt to pursuit trap Slowking, but Weavile needs rocks up (assuming you somehow knock off the boots) to reliably OHKO Slowking with Pursuit, and Krookodile does 60% max as Slowking switches out, half of which gets healed off by Regenerator anyways, and choice locked pursuit is super easy for most wallbreakers it's paired with to abuse. Odds are Future Sight will be up too so ultimately you still have to sack at least one mon anyways. There's also no guarantee Slowking won't just decide to run Colbur Berry specifically for this scenario, and escape at least once to enable the breaker to wreak havoc once again.
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile switching boosted Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 308-366 (78.1 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile switching boosted Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile switching boosted Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So, what are your other options for dealing with these cores aside from the very risky and unreliable hard in Pursuit mon approach I mentioned before? All you can really do is keep up offensive pressure to stop Slowking from getting both Future Sight + Teleport in, or just repeatedly double into a mon that threatens Slowking, which skews the MU heavily in the Slowking user's favour. You can also run Protect on all your physical walls and hard switch them into Slowking with a Protect the next turn to stop the Future Sight hitting (EDIT: no you can't lmao, future sight goes through protect), but dedicating an entire moveslot to avoid being annihilated by Slowking + phys breaker seems a little bit overcentralising to me, especially as Mega Venusaur is the only phys wall that can afford the slot in the first place (maybe malt but then you're seriously nerfing your team utillity). And even then, there's no guarantee the Slowking user won't just switchin the mega venu answer on the protect anyways.
Slowking is by no means a monster that 2hkos the entire tier, but the support it provides with FuturePort is absolutely insane, and by proxy makes a plethora of mons either outright broken or bordering on broken. I'd rather wait to see how Slowking teams play out during the tour before doing anything significant but I get the feeling that if we were to ban the wallbreakers that abuse this support, we'd have no physical wallbreakers left and we'd spend the entire rest of the gen suspecting mons that abuse Slowking.
Also, Diggersby is def something I and probably other council members will be keeping an eye on now that we've realised CB is actually borderline impossible to come in on. Fortunately it doesn't have as many ins as Mega Garde, is RKd by a fair larger number of mons, and certainly doesn't have as many options to cripple it's checks, but its sheer power is bonkers, not to mention CB Quick Attack chunks basically every offensive mon.
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I’d say wait until after the tour, then do a vote on whether Slowking should be quickbanned or suspected.
I haven't played too many (good) games with it yet, so I haven't had enough time to formulate an opinion on if it's actually banworthy - it's more an observation based mostly on teambuilding, discussion and a bit of experience on an alt. Either way, yeah, we probably won't be doing anything tiering related until after NDPL, bar usage based tier shifts if we get something bonkers. First and foremost to look at though is definitely Diggersby, as that's looking problematic with or without Slowking's support. Also remember that the post is based on my opinion and not the council's. In fact, unless I state otherwise, just assume that's the case for all my posts here.
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I personally think the meta is a lot more enjoyable than the last one. Losing Skarmory was a big hit in the teambuilder, but I think that overall a lot (physical) Pokemon really enjoy it being gone and thus a lot more 'mons are from my experience more fun / consistent to use. Mega Gardevoir being gone has, especially from a teambuilding perspective, heavily improved the meta. I will go over some meta adaptions I have seen and how these two losses have significantly impacted the meta in an (imo) more positive way.
The Pokemon listed above only reaches the surface of the amount of 'mons that enjoy Skarmory's departure. Skarmory was so insanely splashable on pretty much every bulky team, offering a check to nearly every physical attacker in the tier due to having access to Whirlwind, reliable recovery in Roost and Counter (a move gaining traction on it in the latter stages). Now that it has left, nearly every physical attacker in the tier got an upgrade. Especially Pokemon like Diggersby, Haxorus and Gyarados got the biggest positives from this change imo, as Skarmory was a big reason why these 3 couldn't bring out all the potential they'd like. Diggersby especially has been making waves, even to the point people consider it unhealthy or broken (I'll touch on this later).
Due to so many breakers getting a lot better, offense has resurged as one of the more prominent playstyles in the meta. While before the shift Balance and even Semi-Stall were considered the best playstyles, it's from my experience that offense is back again. This also has heavily to do with the fact that Urshiu-Rapid-Strike initial hype has went down drastically, a Pokemon that was a pain to face for most (hyper) offense teams. I've been using Webs / Spikes / Screens HO again for a fair bit and have got to say I was surprised how good it actually still was. Many breakers fit on them like Shift Gear Toxtricity / SD Diggersby / Tail Glow Xurkitree / Bisharp / Mimikyu / Mega Sharpedo etc. etc. (not mentioning obvious ones like Latias / Scizor cause they're boring!). These are all really fun to use still, and have even found success with some currently Unranked 'mons like Bulk Up Tornadus, with an actually solid speed tier surpassing 'mons like Mega Diancie and Latias, which allows it to act as a pretty good cleaner on these type of teams.
This isn't me saying that bulkier teams are bad at all though. They are still really prominent, and that's mainly all because of Buzzwole. Buzzwole has taken over the role as the main physical wall of the tier, checking very prominent 'mons really well in the current meta (think of Terrakion, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Mega Gyarados, Tapu Bulu, Weavile, Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Diggersby(!) etc. etc.). Its massive physical bulk lets it even avoid the 2HKO of CB Adamant Diggersby under certain circumstances, a Pokemon that's hard to deal with for quite some Balance builds rn. Buzzwole also forms fantastic cores with other Pokemon, the main one being Blissey. BuzzBliss is basically the new SkarmBliss, as they just complement each others weaknesses very well for the most part. It can also act as a good win condition with Bulk Up, or even break really well with the uprising Choice Band set. Buzzwole is without a doubt the best defensive glue in the meta atm, imo surpassing Mega Venusaur, and will likely rise to A+ in the next VR update to reflect this.
Next I just want to show some fun Pokemon I've been trying out on ladder / friendlies over the last couple of days. Most if not all Pokemon are Unranked and this is not me saying they should be ranked, but are definitely very fun to use.
Flapple @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Grav Apple
- Sucker Punch
- Dragon Dance
This is... genuinely not bad. You'd think you struggle with Steels until you realise you nuke most Steels with Z-Outrage at +1 after a bit of chip anyway. I've been using this thing on Webs so I can get away with running Adamant and my god it's been putting in work. It obviously has struggles like Mega Altaria still being good, and having to rely on Outrage as Dragon-STAB after using your Z (and of course, you have to hit your moves...) However, I still think it breaks walls very easily and I genuinely am here saying to people... USE FLAPPLE! It's good, don't be scared.
Zarude @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Darkest Lariat
- Power Whip
- Iron Tail / Close Combat
- Bulk Up
Zarude @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Darkest Lariat
- Power Whip
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
I thought this 'mon was garbage at first but then Chazm told me to use Darkinium Z and then I did. Surprisingly enough, if you don't run into a Buzzwole, this thing will actually genuinely put in some work. The speed tier combined with the solid bulk it has is actually quite something. Dark-Z allows you to nuke various important targets like Scizor/Moltres/Rotom-Heat that would otherwise trouble you. Iron Tail is there for Mega Altaria, Close Combat for like Bisharp / Cobalion. It's up to the team really. Genuinely solid 'mon and I hate it because it's ugly.
Scarf is also usable but Urshifu is still better as a Scarfer since it can actually OHKO Gyarados. xxx
Golurk @ Choice Band
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge / Trick
- Earthquake
2HKO everything. Not even saying anything else. Golurk gang rise up.
Other UR stuff that I don't want to waste much time on:
-
Scyther is fast and pivots but doesn't actually switch into anything w/o fearing coverage moves. Speed is nice though.
-
Noivern is also a fast pivot that checks Urshifu and Infernape but it's pretty frail and not very strong. Idk what to think of it tbh.
-
Has genuine potential. CB is very scary to switch into if it has Future Sight Slowking support.
-
Teleport P2 is good guys I swear.
-
It is bad but an epic Spiker so fuck it we'll take it.
-
I will continue to believe in this 'mon. Checks Terrak/Urshifu/Diggersby/Mega Gyara/Bulu and has Regen + Knock.
-
Very meh but if you want a dedicated stall breaker that's heat use this ig.
-
Spiker that checks Urshifu and can also Boom. We're just desperate for spikers alright :(
-
Ghost/Fire is really hard to switch into in this meta. If this gets in you claim stuff but getting in is the hard part.
Basically the meta is very cool and has room for a lot of unique options. Can't wait for NDPL!
(PS: Future Sight Slowking support is really fucking good. def don't use it)
The Pokemon listed above only reaches the surface of the amount of 'mons that enjoy Skarmory's departure. Skarmory was so insanely splashable on pretty much every bulky team, offering a check to nearly every physical attacker in the tier due to having access to Whirlwind, reliable recovery in Roost and Counter (a move gaining traction on it in the latter stages). Now that it has left, nearly every physical attacker in the tier got an upgrade. Especially Pokemon like Diggersby, Haxorus and Gyarados got the biggest positives from this change imo, as Skarmory was a big reason why these 3 couldn't bring out all the potential they'd like. Diggersby especially has been making waves, even to the point people consider it unhealthy or broken (I'll touch on this later).
Due to so many breakers getting a lot better, offense has resurged as one of the more prominent playstyles in the meta. While before the shift Balance and even Semi-Stall were considered the best playstyles, it's from my experience that offense is back again. This also has heavily to do with the fact that Urshiu-Rapid-Strike initial hype has went down drastically, a Pokemon that was a pain to face for most (hyper) offense teams. I've been using Webs / Spikes / Screens HO again for a fair bit and have got to say I was surprised how good it actually still was. Many breakers fit on them like Shift Gear Toxtricity / SD Diggersby / Tail Glow Xurkitree / Bisharp / Mimikyu / Mega Sharpedo etc. etc. (not mentioning obvious ones like Latias / Scizor cause they're boring!). These are all really fun to use still, and have even found success with some currently Unranked 'mons like Bulk Up Tornadus, with an actually solid speed tier surpassing 'mons like Mega Diancie and Latias, which allows it to act as a pretty good cleaner on these type of teams.
This isn't me saying that bulkier teams are bad at all though. They are still really prominent, and that's mainly all because of Buzzwole. Buzzwole has taken over the role as the main physical wall of the tier, checking very prominent 'mons really well in the current meta (think of Terrakion, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Mega Gyarados, Tapu Bulu, Weavile, Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Diggersby(!) etc. etc.). Its massive physical bulk lets it even avoid the 2HKO of CB Adamant Diggersby under certain circumstances, a Pokemon that's hard to deal with for quite some Balance builds rn. Buzzwole also forms fantastic cores with other Pokemon, the main one being Blissey. BuzzBliss is basically the new SkarmBliss, as they just complement each others weaknesses very well for the most part. It can also act as a good win condition with Bulk Up, or even break really well with the uprising Choice Band set. Buzzwole is without a doubt the best defensive glue in the meta atm, imo surpassing Mega Venusaur, and will likely rise to A+ in the next VR update to reflect this.
Next I just want to show some fun Pokemon I've been trying out on ladder / friendlies over the last couple of days. Most if not all Pokemon are Unranked and this is not me saying they should be ranked, but are definitely very fun to use.
Flapple @ Dragonium Z
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Grav Apple
- Sucker Punch
- Dragon Dance
This is... genuinely not bad. You'd think you struggle with Steels until you realise you nuke most Steels with Z-Outrage at +1 after a bit of chip anyway. I've been using this thing on Webs so I can get away with running Adamant and my god it's been putting in work. It obviously has struggles like Mega Altaria still being good, and having to rely on Outrage as Dragon-STAB after using your Z (and of course, you have to hit your moves...) However, I still think it breaks walls very easily and I genuinely am here saying to people... USE FLAPPLE! It's good, don't be scared.
Zarude @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Darkest Lariat
- Power Whip
- Iron Tail / Close Combat
- Bulk Up
Zarude @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Darkest Lariat
- Power Whip
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
I thought this 'mon was garbage at first but then Chazm told me to use Darkinium Z and then I did. Surprisingly enough, if you don't run into a Buzzwole, this thing will actually genuinely put in some work. The speed tier combined with the solid bulk it has is actually quite something. Dark-Z allows you to nuke various important targets like Scizor/Moltres/Rotom-Heat that would otherwise trouble you. Iron Tail is there for Mega Altaria, Close Combat for like Bisharp / Cobalion. It's up to the team really. Genuinely solid 'mon and I hate it because it's ugly.
Scarf is also usable but Urshifu is still better as a Scarfer since it can actually OHKO Gyarados. xxx
Golurk @ Choice Band
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge / Trick
- Earthquake
2HKO everything. Not even saying anything else. Golurk gang rise up.
Other UR stuff that I don't want to waste much time on:
-
Scyther is fast and pivots but doesn't actually switch into anything w/o fearing coverage moves. Speed is nice though.-
Noivern is also a fast pivot that checks Urshifu and Infernape but it's pretty frail and not very strong. Idk what to think of it tbh.-
Has genuine potential. CB is very scary to switch into if it has Future Sight Slowking support.-
Teleport P2 is good guys I swear.-
It is bad but an epic Spiker so fuck it we'll take it.-
I will continue to believe in this 'mon. Checks Terrak/Urshifu/Diggersby/Mega Gyara/Bulu and has Regen + Knock.-
Very meh but if you want a dedicated stall breaker that's heat use this ig.-
Spiker that checks Urshifu and can also Boom. We're just desperate for spikers alright :(-
Ghost/Fire is really hard to switch into in this meta. If this gets in you claim stuff but getting in is the hard part.Basically the meta is very cool and has room for a lot of unique options. Can't wait for NDPL!
(PS: Future Sight Slowking support is really fucking good. def don't use it)
