Resource National Dex Viability Rankings [update post #116]

[Ballerman]

I think with the prevalence of mons such as Sp Def Clefable and Rocky Helmet Slowbro and stall teams on the ladder in general that Hoopa-U should rise from B- to B/B+.

Its ability to come in on a mon that doesnt threaten it whatsoever such as mega venasaur, Zapdos, Rotom(scout for will o wisp if using the physical variant) or Magnezone and fire off a powerful Banded Hyperspace Fury really allows it to break down teams that rely on mons such as AV Mag or Chansey as their Gren check. Toxapex also gets mauled by either the physical or special variant, meaning its not safe to come in on Gren as it can just U Turn out and bring in Hoopa, which is a huge momentum loss for the enemy team.

It also can pretty much singlehandedly beat even hard stall teams with a combination of Nasty Plot/Dark Pulse/Psyshock/Focus Blast w/ Fightinium Z. +2 Modest All Out Pummeling always OHKOes Chansey, and Psyshock and Dark Pulse pretty much destroy anything else on the team. Burn is ineffective against this variant as is Knock Off, meaning that hoopa doesnt really care about anything Sableye wants to do.

Hoopa is also specially bulkier than even many of the passive mons it comes in on( a +2 Leaf Storm from Serperior only OHKOes 12.5% of the time after rocks with minimal Sp Def investment) meaning its able to comfortably take hits from powerful mons such as Specs Kyurem, Mega Latios and Scarf Hydreigon.

Replay: Choice Band Hoopa heavily pressuring a stall team https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1118497562
Taking advantage of a weak special attacker(M-Venasaur) to dismantle a Clef+Corv defensive core https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1118506800

I'm not 100% sure if Hoopa-U is deserving of going up to B/B+. I don't have a lot of experience using Hoopa-U, but in the times I've faced it, I thought it was not as good as people make it out to be. It just didn't pack the punch like I thought it would. As you can see in the replay below, on turn 9, Hoopa used Fire Punch on my uninvested, non-defensive Magearna. I thought it could OHKO it, but that turned out to be not the case. Despite its massive 160 base attack, it proved quite underwhelming that match. Hoopa-U is kind of a "good/threatening in theory, just OK in practice" kind of Pokemon.

While I can see its ability to break through some niche stall teams (like the replay you posted with that very niche stall team), I find it to be deadweight most of the time. Also in the replay below, it seemed like my opponent was pretty hesitant on bringing out Hoopa-U because of how frail it is. It only got one attack off the whole game. Overall, from the eye test, Hoopa-U is deservedly in its B- ranking. It just has a tough time OHKOing things. I am open to hearing your response.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1118516020

Also, I will take this opportunity to show off Amnesia + Curse Hippowdon that's featured in the match. The opponent seemingly had no answers for this hidden, unexplored, revolutionizing moveset. While it requires more testing on ladder (especially high ladder), the preliminary data I have for it seems to indicate a high ceiling for it. While Hippowdon usually is only known for being a defensive tank, I think with this radical new moveset, there is an argument to be made for Hippowdon to be moved up from A- -> A. The sheer diversity in this moveset is what sets Hippowdon apart from other high tier Pokemon that are a one-trick pony.

Although this set requires to get rid of ground immunities on the other team, the payoff is extraordinary. Almost no Pokemon can OHKO Hippowdon from full health, except for the obvious cases like Banded Dracovish or things of that nature. And because of how naturally defensive tanky Hippowdon is, 252 EVs can be put into its Special Defense, which can allow it to live most special attacks. Once Hippowdon gets one Amnesia up, it's a hard crawl back into the game for the opponent. I've seen this set wall Mega Venusaur, Choice Specs Ash-Greninja (locked into Water Shuriken), and other top tier threats in the metagame. This set really deserves another look.

 

[smokeythabear96]

I'm not 100% sure if Hoopa-U is deserving of going up to B/B+. I don't have a lot of experience using Hoopa-U, but in the times I've faced it, I thought it was not as good as people make it out to be. It just didn't pack the punch like I thought it would. As you can see in the replay below, on turn 9, Hoopa used Fire Punch on my uninvested, non-defensive Magearna. I thought it could OHKO it, but that turned out to be not the case. Despite its massive 160 base attack, it proved quite underwhelming that match. Hoopa-U is kind of a "good/threatening in theory, just OK in practice" kind of Pokemon.

While I can see its ability to break through some niche stall teams (like the replay you posted with that very niche stall team), I find it to be deadweight most of the time. Also in the replay below, it seemed like my opponent was pretty hesitant on bringing out Hoopa-U because of how frail it is. It only got one attack off the whole game. Overall, from the eye test, Hoopa-U is deservedly in its B- ranking. It just has a tough time OHKOing things. I am open to hearing your response.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1118516020

Also, I will take this opportunity to show off Amnesia + Curse Hippowdon that's featured in the match. The opponent seemingly had no answers for this hidden, unexplored, revolutionizing moveset. While it requires more testing on ladder (especially high ladder), the preliminary data I have for it seems to indicate a high ceiling for it. While Hippowdown usually is only known for being a defensive tank, I think with this radical new moveset, there is an argument to be made for Hippowdon to be moved up from A- -> A. The sheer diversity in this moveset is what sets Hippowdon apart from other high tier Pokemon that are a one-trick pony.

Yeah that amnesia set is a monster lol, I had sacked my special attacker earlier and couldn't touch it late game.

Hoopa-U isn't a threat the way I see people use it. A lot of times they try to go with it mixed LO or they try to run scarf or something that doesn't really maximize its power. IMO the most effective set is the following

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Band
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Atk / 32 SpD / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Zen Headbutt
- Fire Punch
- Drain Punch

The speed outspeeds shift gear magearna before setting up so it can OHKO w/ Fire Punch
252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 280-330 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
So after one of Gren's U Turns Magearna pretty much dies. Hoopa is a powerful attacker that wants to force switches to bulkier walls(which coincidentally get 2HKO'd)) so maximum speed isn't necessary. The extra Sp Def lets more comfortably take special attacks, notably not being OHKO'd by +1 Blacephalon's Shadow Ball(late game probably won't lock into inaccurate Fire Blast) or Ash Greninja's Dark Pulse.

I was actually playing you in that replay lol. Yeah I messed up fishing for the burn and it went downhill from there but that Magearna set had to have some kind of HP investment on it to live at 16%
252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 280-330 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It did 78% so a very low roll which happens sometimes. Although Hoopa can't outright OHKO a ton(max defense Ferro, HIppo etc) it comfortably 2HKOes pretty much anything slower than it(except niche mons like Avalugg, Mega Aggron or Umbreon etc) and anything that can threaten it out physically has a tough time switching in unless it resist both its stabs(like Bisharp, but it still takes a ton from Hyperspace on the switch and dies to Drain) so it mainly threatens a mon the switch. For example, even if your Skarmory was running max defense
252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 178-211 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I think Hoopa belongs in B or B+ if its running the banded set. The Specs set has a tougher time against common things like Chansey AV Mag Sp Def Clef so its not as splashable.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1118544602 This would be an example of what Hoopa can do when played decently. Was able to KO Gliscor and Heatran and put the Bulu in Range of Landorus's U Turn,, all while sponging special attacks from Thundurus.

 

[GBMetagross]

Dragapult B+ -> A- Yes. Without repeating too much of what others said, it can offer a lot of utility even if it's mainly an offensive mon, meaning that it's not too hard to slap onto a team. My favourite attribute is that it's arguably the best offensive answer to volc.

Also, I will take this opportunity to show off Amnesia + Curse Hippowdon that's featured in the match. The opponent seemingly had no answers for this hidden, unexplored, revolutionizing moveset. While it requires more testing on ladder (especially high ladder), the preliminary data I have for it seems to indicate a high ceiling for it. While Hippowdon usually is only known for being a defensive tank, I think with this radical new moveset, there is an argument to be made for Hippowdon to be moved up from A- -> A. The sheer diversity in this moveset is what sets Hippowdon apart from other high tier Pokemon that are a one-trick pony.

Although this set requires to get rid of ground immunities on the other team, the payoff is extraordinary. Almost no Pokemon can OHKO Hippowdon from full health, except for the obvious cases like Banded Dracovish or things of that nature. And because of how naturally defensive tanky Hippowdon is, 252 EVs can be put into its Special Defense, which can allow it to live most special attacks. Once Hippowdon gets one Amnesia up, it's a hard crawl back into the game for the opponent. I've seen this set wall Mega Venusaur, Choice Specs Ash-Greninja (locked into Water Shuriken), and other top tier threats in the metagame. This set really deserves another look.

I like the idea, but what would make this better than calm mind/body press sweepers such as (but not limited to), double dance rest mega slowbro, cm reuniclus, cm mega latios/latias, cm rest/subprotect suicune, iron defense corviknight, or iron defense kommo-o?

If you're running amnesia, I'm assuming the other three moves would be slack off, earthquake, and toxic, which all seem mandatory on a set like this. There's no room for SR, which means you'll have to find another setter, and there's no room for whirlwind, which means you'll oftentimes lose in set-up wars. If I'm wrong, please let me know.

 

[Cuddly]

B -> -B
With Mega Metagross surviving the suspect test and remaining in OU, it's kind of a wonder how Melmetal is this high. It's the budget version of the best Pokemon in NatDex OU currently.
You trade the speed and then some, natural Special Bulk, natural power, and utility Megagross has, all for some more physical bulk and "freedom to hold an item". And by freedom, I mean it will almost always use Choice Band since it can't compete otherwise and just going all out in power is pretty much the only way you'll ever find success with Melmetal, which in return makes Melmetal much harder to use with how prediction reliant it is.
Melmetal is pretty much just a handicap with how similar is is to Megagross but not offering much for what it sacrifices.
Oh, and Mega Mawile is also leagues better as well, but at least uses different coverage types.

-B -> B
On the flipside, I think Dracovish is a bit underrated comparatively. Unlike Melmetal, Dracovish is unique enough from other top tier Pokemon that you aren't crippling your team. The closest Pokemon to Dracovish that's higher than it is Mega Swampert, which is still extremely different, and like with Ash-Greninja+Mega Blastoise of before, they can pair decently together for a Double Dragon core, especially when Dracovish is neutral to grass moves and can 2HKO even the most problematic grass types like Tangrowth and Ferrothorn.
It's also pretty nice that Mega Blastoise is gone for Dracovish, since just like Darmanitan-G, a Mega Blastoise with Reflect up could easily set up on it.

 

[Annnnnlites]

Necrozma
A+ rank

Necrozma was good but I give him A+ because he will use calm mind,photon geyser,heat wave, and moonlight but that’s good for necrozma but he was to powerful I just gave his item with firium Z oh and there’s more the necrozma must be insane but he was to strong

 

[Cuddly]

View attachment 249270
Necrozma
A+ rank

Necrozma was good but I give him A+ because he will use calm mind,photon geyser,heat wave, and moonlight but that’s good for necrozma but he was to powerful I just gave his item with firium Z oh and there’s more the necrozma must be insane but he was to strong

That’s a very Adamant opinion right there.
Not only bringing a URed Pokemon to A+, but also 2 ranks higher than Reuniclus and on par with Clefable.
I would recommend that you;
1. Save some replays using the Showdown replay system
2. Have a much more Modest ranking, like C.

Also, pun intended in my post.

 

[Guard]

VR UPDATE ~
Hello everyone, the VR council has recently concluded voting on the 6th VR slate, and here is the outcome. Most notably, an S- rank has been created as we found there were a few threats that stood above the rest of A+, yet didn’t have the prowess to qualify them a spot next to our broken trifecta.

RISES
A+ to S-
A+ to S-
A to A+
B+ to A-
B+ to A-
B+ to A-
B- to A-
B+ to A-
B to B+
B to B+
B to B+
UR to C
UR to C
UR to C


Tornadus-T has proven to be among the metagame’s premier glues lately. It is our best offensive pivot by a landslide, and truly excels when it comes to making progress no matter what matchup it faces, in particular if it opts to run Knock Off. Slightly more offensively tailored sets are hugely potent presences as well, commonly running moves such as Heat Wave and Hidden Power Ice to overcome common checks such as Mega Metagross, Corviknight, and the rising Gliscor, as well as easing the matchup against a hard-to-check wallbreaker in Garchomp. Z-Focus Blast has made a few appearances as well due to the popularity of Mega Tyranitar, easily taking it out and thereby heavily disrupting the defensive integrity of these popular builds. The rise in rain usage has also been a great pluspoint, as Tornadus-T is a natural rain staple, as well as a great option to pressure these teams. Furthermore, it remains one of our best Defog users, almost facing no competition in this regard at all, apart from Tapu Fini on some builds. All in all, Tornadus-T is one of our frontrunners when it comes to sheer influence on the metagame and it proves to be very difficult to check and take advantage of, all the while providing heaps of defensive utility, resulting in a clear-cut rise.


Hydreigon has catapulted in usage over the past couple of weeks, as it is a harshly punishing wallbreaker with its Nasty Plot Z-Move sets, that also happens to offer significant utility in checking potent threats in Rotom-H, Heatran, Gliscor, and the rising Reuniclus, as well as ease the matchup against Ash-Greninja. Moreover, it is the tiers best Choice Scarf user alongside Galarian Darmanitan, offering very solid speed control in addition to its aforementioned checking prowess. These two sets have proven to be extremely splashable on a supermajority of our builds and have come to define our metagame to quite a significant degree, which was enough to convince a majority of the council for a rise to S-.


Mega Lopunny is our clear runner-up in the Mega Evolution slot, providing near unmatched speed control by virtue of its blistering Speed tier in combination with multiple forms of priority, while still proving to be quite the wallbreaker with its unresisted STAB combination. Not much has changed in particular, making this a long-time-coming rise.


Dragapult is a great form of natural speed control as well, and can hugely annoy teams in general with its ability to take advantage of many defensive Pokemon such as Tangrowth, Slowbro, and Gliscor, and hugely dent others in Tapu Fini and Toxapex with its Electrium Z set, which is a very valuable niche in a Galarian Darmanitan metagame. Dragon Dance Z-Ghost sets in particular have also seen an uptick in usage, as it is a phenomenal late-game cleaner provided the Z-Move is timed correctly, and notably eases the matchup against rain teams as well.


Rain has seen a huge uptick in usage in recent times, mainly due to Manaphy’s ability to completely run over the influx of stall, semi-stall, and bulky balances in the metagame, as well as completely negate traditional counterplay to Water-types with a ridiculously strong Tail Glow-boosted Hydro Vortex. Thus, the playstyle has been raised to A- with the rises of the mandatory Pelipper and Mega Swampert, with their main enabler in Manaphy joining them.


Serperior is a great anti-meta pick currently, being able to easily take advantage of and slice apart Tangrowth + Tapu Fini balances, cripple Tornadus-T with Glare, take out Rotom-H with a +2 Bloom Doom after some chip, and being a huge nuisance in general to many more defensive Pokemon with its Z-Leaf Storm Synthesis set, all of which compounds to a justified rise.


As a direct consequence of Manaphy’s prominence, Gastrodon was deemed worthy of a rise, as Clear Smog sets are one of the very few reliable counterplay options to non-Energy Ball Manaphy. In addition, it provides notable other perks as well, such as checking the everpotent Ash-Greninja and Heatran, as well as Volcarona, Magearna, and Rotom-H.


Alomomola has enjoyed great amounts of usage recently on multiple stall, semi-stall, and bulky balance builds due to its ability to severely restrict Galarian Darmanitan, reliably check Mega Metagross, and pivot into and scout Ash-Greninja at high health levels, while providing tremendous utility in Wish for a whole host of teammates, all in one slot.


Gengar is one of the metagame’s best breakers in general, in particular against teams relying on Chansey to hold their defensive integrity together. As these teams have been quite common lately, Gengar is in a relatively comfortable spot, which warranted a slight rise to reflect this.


Mandibuzz is a decent option on some teams currently, as it provides very unique characteristics in hard-checking notable threats in Dragon Dance Dragapult, Swords Dance Aegislash, and Nasty Plot Hydreigon, as well as soft-checking the likes of Kartana, Mega Alakazam, and Mega Metagross, all the while providing Defog support as well as a Dark-resistance against Ash-Greninja.

Terrakion’s mix of power, decent speed tier, and a great new addition of Megahorn to its flagship CB set grant it the ability to bust through common defensive cores with a singular correct prediction. Moreover, Terrakion also provides good value as a Stealth Rock setter that can take out Tangrowth without much effort and even as a Choice Scarf user that can reliably check Volcarona multiple times throughout a match while still maintaining the ability to revenge kill Metagross and Mega Charizard-X, among others.
s/o faded love

Tapu Koko has seen some use recently as the metagame is hopelessly looking for Tornadus-T switchins. It is a decent Mega Metagross enabler, boosting its Thunder Punch to the extent where Slowbro, Corviknight, and Alomomola fail to qualify as checks, and letting it negate Tangrowth’s Sleep Powder.

DROPS
A+ to A
A- to B+
B+ to B-
C to UR
C to UR


As time has passed, Clefable has proven to be harder and harder to fit on teams, as there are quite a few additional Stealth Rock setters, such as Garchomp, Hippowdon, and Mega Tyranitar, all of which compress more relevant checking prowess, and in Garchomp and Mega Tyranitar’s case, boast tremendous amounts of offensive presence as well. Mega Metagross’s continued griphold on the metagame also does it no favors at all, leading to a drop in viability.


Mega Slowbro is dropping as it faces quite some competition currently, both as a Mega Evolution and as a bulky Water-type. Typically, the fatter teams it resides on gain more value from Mega Evolutions such as Mega Latias and Mega Scizor, while the huge rise in Alomomola on these teams make Mega Slowbro a redundancy for the most part as well.


Ditto has lost a significant part of its niche after Mega Blastoise’s ban, and thus faces competition now from several other forms of Speed control in Galarian Darmanitan, Hydreigon, Mega Lopunny, and Dragapult. I personally did not agree with a drop all the way to B-, since it is still a great annoyance to the surplus in bulky builds in our metagame. Nevertheless, the council deemed a drop fitting, hence why it is dropping.


Both of these struggle to find a niche on their respective playstyles, as their niche is simply not valuable as of writing, or they are strictly outdone by better Pokemon.

Slate

Keep up with the nominations and stay safe!

 

[WolfishOne]

Hi just gonna post my thoughts

VR UPDATE ~
Hello everyone, the VR council has recently concluded voting on the 6th VR slate, and here is the outcome. Most notably, an S- rank has been created as we found there were a few threats that stood above the rest of A+, yet didn’t have the prowess to qualify them a spot next to our broken trifecta.

RISES
A+ to S-. Personally never used it but sounds strong on paper
A+ to S- Nasty Z sets can just be dumb in general. ScarfDreigon Just kills draggy which is rising in usage
A to A+ One of few viable megas Rn so yes ofc
B+ to A- I mean. While Hex Z thunder sets are decent personally I find draggy struggles Against a lot of popular picks rn
B+ to A- Rain is incredibly strong rn especially with vish as a new abuset
B+ to A-
B- to A-
B+ to A-
B to B+ Meh
B to B+ Decent pick with wish support and a decent metagross check
B to B+ Solid in general
UR to C Good Defogger but is in competition with torn
UR to C Eh
UR to C Sure why not


Tornadus-T has proven to be among the metagame’s premier glues lately. It is our best offensive pivot by a landslide, and truly excels when it comes to making progress no matter what matchup it faces, in particular if it opts to run Knock Off. Slightly more offensively tailored sets are hugely potent presences as well, commonly running moves such as Heat Wave and Hidden Power Ice to overcome common checks such as Mega Metagross, Corviknight, and the rising Gliscor, as well as easing the matchup against a hard-to-check wallbreaker in Garchomp. Z-Focus Blast has made a few appearances as well due to the popularity of Mega Tyranitar, easily taking it out and thereby heavily disrupting the defensive integrity of these popular builds. The rise in rain usage has also been a great pluspoint, as Tornadus-T is a natural rain staple, as well as a great option to pressure these teams. Furthermore, it remains one of our best Defog users, almost facing no competition in this regard at all, apart from Tapu Fini on some builds. All in all, Tornadus-T is one of our frontrunners when it comes to sheer influence on the metagame and it proves to be very difficult to check and take advantage of, all the while providing heaps of defensive utility, resulting in a clear-cut rise.


Hydreigon has catapulted in usage over the past couple of weeks, as it is a harshly punishing wallbreaker with its Nasty Plot Z-Move sets, that also happens to offer significant utility in checking potent threats in Rotom-H, Heatran, Gliscor, and the rising Reuniclus, as well as ease the matchup against Ash-Greninja. Moreover, it is the tiers best Choice Scarf user alongside Galarian Darmanitan, offering very solid speed control in addition to its aforementioned checking prowess. These two sets have proven to be extremely splashable on a supermajority of our builds and have come to define our metagame to quite a significant degree, which was enough to convince a majority of the council for a rise to S-.


Mega Lopunny is our clear runner-up in the Mega Evolution slot, providing near unmatched speed control by virtue of its blistering Speed tier in combination with multiple forms of priority, while still proving to be quite the wallbreaker with its unresisted STAB combination. Not much has changed in particular, making this a long-time-coming rise.


Dragapult is a great form of natural speed control as well, and can hugely annoy teams in general with its ability to take advantage of many defensive Pokemon such as Tangrowth, Slowbro, and Gliscor, and hugely dent others in Tapu Fini and Toxapex with its Electrium Z set, which is a very valuable niche in a Galarian Darmanitan metagame. Dragon Dance Z-Ghost sets in particular have also seen an uptick in usage, as it is a phenomenal late-game cleaner provided the Z-Move is timed correctly, and notably eases the matchup against rain teams as well.


Rain has seen a huge uptick in usage in recent times, mainly due to Manaphy’s ability to completely run over the influx of stall, semi-stall, and bulky balances in the metagame, as well as completely negate traditional counterplay to Water-types with a ridiculously strong Tail Glow-boosted Hydro Vortex. Thus, the playstyle has been raised to A- with the rises of the mandatory Pelipper and Mega Swampert, with their main enabler in Manaphy joining them.


Serperior is a great anti-meta pick currently, being able to easily take advantage of and slice apart Tangrowth + Tapu Fini balances, cripple Tornadus-T with Glare, take out Rotom-H with a +2 Bloom Doom after some chip, and being a huge nuisance in general to many more defensive Pokemon with its Z-Leaf Storm Synthesis set, all of which compounds to a justified rise.


As a direct consequence of Manaphy’s prominence, Gastrodon was deemed worthy of a rise, as Clear Smog sets are one of the very few reliable counterplay options to non-Energy Ball Manaphy. In addition, it provides notable other perks as well, such as checking the everpotent Ash-Greninja and Heatran, as well as Volcarona, Magearna, and Rotom-H.


Alomomola has enjoyed great amounts of usage recently on multiple stall, semi-stall, and bulky balance builds due to its ability to severely restrict Galarian Darmanitan, reliably check Mega Metagross, and pivot into and scout Ash-Greninja at high health levels, while providing tremendous utility in Wish for a whole host of teammates, all in one slot.


Gengar is one of the metagame’s best breakers in general, in particular against teams relying on Chansey to hold their defensive integrity together. As these teams have been quite common lately, Gengar is in a relatively comfortable spot, which warranted a slight rise to reflect this.


Mandibuzz is a decent option on some teams currently, as it provides very unique characteristics in hard-checking notable threats in Dragon Dance Dragapult, Swords Dance Aegislash, and Nasty Plot Hydreigon, as well as soft-checking the likes of Kartana, Mega Alakazam, and Mega Metagross, all the while providing Defog support as well as a Dark-resistance against Ash-Greninja.

Terrakion’s mix of power, decent speed tier, and a great new addition of Megahorn to its flagship CB set grant it the ability to bust through common defensive cores with a singular correct prediction. Moreover, Terrakion also provides good value as a Stealth Rock setter that can take out Tangrowth without much effort and even as a Choice Scarf user that can reliably check Volcarona multiple times throughout a match while still maintaining the ability to revenge kill Metagross and Mega Charizard-X, among others.
s/o faded love

Tapu Koko has seen some use recently as the metagame is hopelessly looking for Tornadus-T switchins. It is a decent Mega Metagross enabler, boosting its Thunder Punch to the extent where Slowbro, Corviknight, and Alomomola fail to qualify as checks, and letting it negate Tangrowth’s Sleep Powder.

DROPS
A+ to A
A- to B+
B+ to B-
C to UR
C to UR


As time has passed, Clefable has proven to be harder and harder to fit on teams, as there are quite a few additional Stealth Rock setters, such as Garchomp, Hippowdon, and Mega Tyranitar, all of which compress more relevant checking prowess, and in Garchomp and Mega Tyranitar’s case, boast tremendous amounts of offensive presence as well. Mega Metagross’s continued griphold on the metagame also does it no favors at all, leading to a drop in viability.


Mega Slowbro is dropping as it faces quite some competition currently, both as a Mega Evolution and as a bulky Water-type. Typically, the fatter teams it resides on gain more value from Mega Evolutions such as Mega Latias and Mega Scizor, while the huge rise in Alomomola on these teams make Mega Slowbro a redundancy for the most part as well.


Ditto has lost a significant part of its niche after Mega Blastoise’s ban, and thus faces competition now from several other forms of Speed control in Galarian Darmanitan, Hydreigon, Mega Lopunny, and Dragapult. I personally did not agree with a drop all the way to B-, since it is still a great annoyance to the surplus in bulky builds in our metagame. Nevertheless, the council deemed a drop fitting, hence why it is dropping.


Both of these struggle to find a niche on their respective playstyles, as their niche is simply not valuable as of writing, or they are strictly outdone by better Pokemon.

Slate

Keep up with the nominations and stay safe!

 

[Ballerman]

Can anyone provide some insight on Mega Manectric? It seems like a good enough Pokemon on paper so I'm curious why it isn't ranked.

 

[smokeythabear96]

Can anyone provide some insight on Mega Manectric? It seems like a good enough Pokemon on paper so I'm curious why it isn't ranked.

I used it on a team that peaked at #2 on the Nat Dex ladder. I agree that it should be ranked as it completely stops mega metagross in its tracks(Intimidate+ Flamethrower or Overheat,resists bullet punch) as well as outspeeding Greninja post battle bond, forcing it to click water shuriken. Its just pretty frail especially pre mega evolution, but it can normally take at least one strong neutral hit(AV Mag Fleur Cannon) once it evolves. It also threatens out Pex+RH Tang with its combination of Tbolt and Flamethrower, which preys on the latters pitiful SP Def stat. As regen mons can make games take forever, its ability to threaten all of them is much appreciated. It also has volt switch to pivot out of matchups it doesnt like such as Chansey or Clef, allowing you to bring it a powerful physical mon. Its definitely slept on.

 

[KirbCena]

Can anyone provide some insight on Mega Manectric? It seems like a good enough Pokemon on paper so I'm curious why it isn't ranked.

It's completely outclassed by Rotom-H, who has Nasty Plot, provides a pseudo-ground immunity and doesn't waste your Mega slot, which is pretty much always given to Megagross and Mega Lopunny. Tapu Koko, while rather niche and mediocre compared to Heattom, also outclasses Mega Manectric because it also doesn't waste your Mega slot, provides a sleep immunity thanks to Terrain, and can check Torn-T far better thanks to Roost as well as other, but more niche, utility options such as Taunt and Nature's Madness. Intimidate isn't really enough to justify Mega Manectric when it's still rather frail after lowering the opponent's attack and can't check Darm-G either unlike Rotom-H, hence why it's not ranked.

 

[WolfishOne]

I want to talk about a very underated mon


This thing completely dismantles Fini Tang defensive cores which are becoming very common. With some sand support it 2Ko's both tang and fini.

252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini in Sand: 186-220 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Swords Dance Punishes attempts to heal tang with regenerator meaning very few mons take sand force EQ Or stone edge.

However the speed drop hurts a lot so it may require parahax support from serperior and dragapult

I Nominate this To B-

 

[Cuddly]

I want to talk about a very underated mon


This thing completely dismantles Fini Tang defensive cores which are becoming very common. With some sand support it 2Ko's both tang and fini.

252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini in Sand: 186-220 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Swords Dance Punishes attempts to heal tang with regenerator meaning very few mons take sand force EQ Or stone edge.

However the speed drop hurts a lot so it may require parahax support from serperior and dragapult

I Nominate this To B-

Definitely Disagree.
First is the fact that you need Sand to barely 2HKO Fini and Fire Blast+Sand to also barely 2HKO Tang.
In contrast.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 184-217 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Metagross, a far better Mega already, does slightly less to Tapu Fini without needing Sand, and can deal with Tangrowth well already as long as Meteor Mash can get a +1 boost.
Also
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 242-285 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 348-410 (101.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A normal Garchomp does the deed just as good with Rockium Z, still keeps Garchomp’s speed, keeps room open a mega slot, and can won’t be gimped for coverage if it runs Stealth Rock.

Secondly, with Rockium Z Garchomp vs Mega Garchomp, what at your moves?
You need Earthquake for STAB, Fire Blast to beat Tangrowth, Corviknight, ect. and then you have to decide between more coverage or some Utility.
With regular Garchomp, a Continental Crush, especially at +2, will be enough at dealing with Corviknight, Tangrowth, but also Rotom-Heat, Tornadus-T, and even Hydregion.
If you want to run Stone Edge on Mega Chomp, you have to give up Stealth Rocks, Fire Blast, or Swords Dance.

 

[WolfishOne]

Definitely Disagree.
First is the fact that you need Sand to barely 2HKO Fini and Fire Blast+Sand to also barely 2HKO Tang.
In contrast.
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 184-217 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Mega Metagross, a far better Mega already, does slightly less to Tapu Fini without needing Sand, and can deal with Tangrowth well already as long as Meteor Mash can get a +1 boost.
Also
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 242-285 (59.9 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 348-410 (101.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A normal Garchomp does the deed just as good with Rockium Z, still keeps Garchomp’s speed, keeps room open a mega slot, and can won’t be gimped for coverage if it runs Stealth Rock.

Secondly, with Rockium Z Garchomp vs Mega Garchomp, what at your moves?
You need Earthquake for STAB, Fire Blast to beat Tangrowth, Corviknight, ect. and then you have to decide between more coverage or some Utility.
With regular Garchomp, a Continental Crush, especially at +2, will be enough at dealing with Corviknight, Tangrowth, but also Rotom-Heat, Tornadus-T, and even Hydregion.
If you want to run Stone Edge on Mega Chomp, you have to give up Stealth Rocks, Fire Blast, or Swords Dance.

You don't need sand actually to 2ko tangrowth or fini.
4 SpA Garchomp-Mega Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 318-376 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini: 175-207 (51 - 60.3%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While mega chomp loses to it's base form, Mega Chomp has a high chance to kill metagross

252 Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 282-332 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Also why is your regular garchomp allowed + 2 but mine isn't

 

[Sputnik]

I want to talk about a very underated mon


This thing completely dismantles Fini Tang defensive cores which are becoming very common. With some sand support it 2Ko's both tang and fini.

252 Atk Sand Force Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 16 Def Tapu Fini in Sand: 186-220 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tangrowth: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

Swords Dance Punishes attempts to heal tang with regenerator meaning very few mons take sand force EQ Or stone edge.

However the speed drop hurts a lot so it may require parahax support from serperior and dragapult

I Nominate this To B-

We definitely appreciate the nom, but replays are needed if one wants to nominate something from UR to ranked on the VR. Please add some replays of Mega Garchomp in action

 

[sanguine]

Hey all, here are some quick changes the council wanted to get out before DLC drops.

Toxapex to S-
Cinderace to A
Hippowdon to A
Kyurem to A
Mega Alakazam to A
Dragapult to A
Victini to B+

Hydreigon to A+
Greninja to A-
Kartana to A-
Corviknight to B+
Charizard Y to B-

A+ to S- : Toxapex’s place as the most valuable water has regenerated itself, as it can compress a long term check to top threats like Ash Greninja, Darmanitan and Tornadus into one slot while still providing decent utility between Scald burns and Toxic Spikes, earning it a much overdue rise.

to A - It’s all in one word - Libero. With the release of its HA . Cinderace’s speed tier perfect coverage, have made both Choice Band and Bulk Up sets formidable force to be reckoned with. There’s not much more to say outside of that.

to B+: Victini’s speed tier, V-Create, and access to Final Gambit make it one of the better scarfers in the metagame, as it can reliably deal with MetaDarm with V-Create while still being able to force trades or at least a large chunk of damage into walls with Final Gambit and warrants a rise as such.

to A-: Kartana struggles mightily in the metagame. Metagross reigns supreme as an offensive steel in the metagame, providing more utility defensively. Responses to Metagross, such as the popularity of Physically Defensive Tangrowth and Mega Scizor, in addition to the rise of Tornadus, have also cut into its viability.

to B+: Corviknight’s terrible matchups against common threats such as Rotom-Heat and Garchomp and competition from other more defensively useful steels such as Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor have finally come home to Roost, and is being dropped because of it.

 

[Jho]

A Small bonus post to welcome Solaros & Lunaris to the VR council ! S&L has been extremely helpful with National Dex analyses and has shown that they have a great understanding of the meta that will surely be a great asset to the VR team, congrats!

I also just wanted to touch on a few of the more controversial drops

to A+: With Toxapex becoming more and more common, a second soft check to Ash Greninja isn't as needed on a lot of teams, which is one of the reasons why Hydreigon was previously seen as so splashable. This coupled with the fact that other Choice Scarf users like Victini are gaining a little bit more usage means that Hydreigon is facing increased competition in that role as well. In my opinion its these factors combined that resulted in Hydreigon's drop this slate. Don't get me wrong its still a fantastic mon, and definitely one of the best in the tier, but I do not think it matches the splashability and omnipresence of Tornadus-T and Toxapex for it to be in the same ranking as those. This is just my opinion and Im sure other members of the VR team have their own reasons for voting it down but this is how I see the meta developing right now

to B+: Corviknight's ability to compress a Metagross check with hazard removal is just so rarely ever needed, due to Tornadus-T being so popular and synergistic with Pokemon such as Tangrowth. It is also incredibly passive despite its access to U-turn as in order to properly check Metagross it really has to go with Iron Defense + Body Press sets, which leave it a sitting duck for the majority of the game. This passivity and overall lack of situations where its niche is useful is what constituted such a dramatic drop.

I am very much looking forward to how the DLC meta affects us here in NatDex and think that this VR pretty accurately represents the metagame in its current state right before a huge metagame shift is about to hit us. Look forward to seeing all yalls nominations when the DLC drops !

 

[Guard]

Hey, I've had several requests to expound on the recent VR changes because players did not quite fully understand why these happened in the first place, so without further ado:

RISES

Toxapex is our premier defensive threat for several reasons. It's immense blanket checking and pivoting prowess has become increasingly more valued in a metagame where role compression is ever so important. In particular, the recently devised 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 SpD spread with a Calm nature courtesy of Jho proves to be supremely splashable on a vast majority of balance builds, taking on behemoths in Ash-Greninja, Tornadus-T, and Mega Lopunny, pivoting into Galarian Darmanitan, Choice Scarf Hydreigon, and Cinderace, as well as checking a plethora of miscellaneous dangerous threats in Mega Scizor, Volcarona, and Protean Greninja. Furthermore, Toxic Spikes remains a deadly tool in more drawn out games, as Toxapex is infamous for abusing non-Taunt Tapu Fini and outlasting Tornadus-T in these games, which really are our only relevant entry hazard removers. Thus, combined with appropriate abusers such as Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, and Reuniclus, Toxapex can often be a key enabler mid- to late-game. Its influence as a defensive Pokemon is so vast that it has gotten to a point where you often have to 'defensively' prepare your team against it by employing anti-status measures such as Gliscor, Misty Terrain, and Reuniclus, which goes on to prove how much progress Toxapex can really make against unprepared teams. All of these characteristics combined were deemed enough to warrant the rise to S-.


Hippowdon rises as a consequence of how valued it is for its ability to check a myriad of physical attackers, as well as compress Stealth Rock support. Its rise can also be directly connected to Toxapex's rise, as it is one of its most common teammates, patching up notable weaknesses Toxapex teams would otherwise have, such as to Mega Metagross, Cinderace, and Garchomp. Libero Cinderace's arrival in particular is notable, since Hippowdon is the only surefire check to all of its sets, while punishing U-turn with Rocky Helmet.


Cinderace has proven to be quite the balance breaker ever since Libero was bestowed upon it. It has caused an incentive for most teams to be rebuilt in order to take it on reliably, with the most notable example being the common Tangrowth + Tapu Fini balances. It has proven that it can pull off a great multitude of sets, each and every one capable of putting many defensive backbones into awkwardly passive positions. Choice Band sets, while prediction-reliant, hold the highest innate wallbreaking capabilities, 2HKO'ing even the bulkiest of Hippowdon after just one use of U-turn. Heavy-Duty Boots sets trade the immediate power for a misleading amount of longevity, as well as higher wallbreaking flexibility with all four moveslots available for breaking down walls. Z-Move sets are potent lures, with Darkinium Z luring the likes of Slowbro and the Mega Eon duo, and taking out common Fire-resists such as Garchomp, Rotom-H, and Heatran after a Bulk Up and some prior chip. Choice Scarf sets provide great speed control, threatening the OHKO on Choice Scarf Galarian Darmanitan, Hydreigon, and Kartana, in addition to forcing out a plethora of other threats such as Mega Metagross, Ash-Greninja not locked into Water Shuriken, Mega Lopunny, Shift Gear Magearna, and Mega Alakazam. However, it still faces a few issues; non-Heavy-Duty Boots sets are quite prone to entry hazard damage, while Heavy-Duty Boots sets may fail to make meaningful progress against teams packing walls such as Hippowdon and physically defensive Toxapex.


Kyurem finds itself in an extremely comfortable position against many current defensive backbones, such as Tangrowth + Tapu Fini + Heatran / Rotom-H and Toxapex + Hippowdon + Tornadus-T. It can make great amounts of progress against almost all balance and bulky offensive teams as a result, with Substitute giving it opportunities to push damage onto its offensive pivots as well. Kyurem is also notorious for singlehandedly winning the Rain matchup without a breaking a sweat, which is an important trait in a metagame where Manaphy gets so many opportunities to spiral out of control. Mega Scizor and Volcarona teams are really some of the only ones that can capably handle Kyurem defensively. As such, Kyurem has been raised due to being close to perfect as a contemporary balance breaker.


Mega Alakazam is one of the best anti-meta picks right now. With Corviknight's fall from grace and Mega Scizor's tendency to fall prone to chip damage, Psychic-type counterplay is mostly restricted to awkward pivoting between Mega Metagross, Mega Tyranitar, and Choice Scarf Hydreigon. In the hands of a skilled player and supported by a good defensive backbone, Mega Alakazam can quite easily outlast all of these, while also taking advantage of Rain's sheer prominence akin to Kyurem, as well as abusing Toxapex's ubiquity. The metagame is increasingly underestimating Mega Alakazam, and it is now at a point where a rise is justified to reflect its prowess.


Dragapult has rebounded spectacularly from its dip in form, with both Electrium Z and Dragon Dance Ghostium Z sets being terrific forms of natural speed control, as well as powerhouses in their own right. Electrium Z sets are notoriously capable of making great amounts of wallbreaking progress throughout a game, taking advantage of the fact that Clefable is quite hard to justify on the majority of teams. Meanwhile, Dragon Dance sets are borderline impossible to stop late-game due to outspeeding every relevant Choice Scarfer. It is also a great way to alleviate the rain matchup, as it naturally outspeeds Choice Scarf Dracovish, and Mega Swampert after a boost.


Choice Scarf Victini is a good form of Speed control on some teams due to its unique bag of tricks. Its Speed tier combined with its typing and V-Create allows it to threaten Mega Metagross and Galarian Darmanitan, and pivot into their STAB moves if necessary. Furthermore, a Fire-typing also allows it to check Magearna and Volcarona, while a Psychic-typing helps in easing the matchup against the likes of Mega Alakazam. Moreover, it is capable of highly annoying defensive pivots such as Toxapex, Slowbro, Hippowdon, Heatran, and Tapu Fini with a well-timed Trick or Final Gambit, which gives it some additional utility in potentially opening up otherwise hard matchups.

DROPS

In my opinion, Hydreigon never really deserved the rise to S-. Nasty Plot sets have their set of flaws, such as having to guess a bit too often whether they want to use Nasty Plot to break defense, or click attacks against Pokemon that will be looking to pivot into the expected Nasty Plot, most notably Choice Scarf Hydreigon. Furthermore, they are very prone to Toxic from Rotom-H and Heatran, two Pokemon Nasty Plot sets are expected to pivot into. The awkward speed tier also does not do this set any favors, as it is forced out by a majority of the faster metagame, including every Choice Scarfer. As Jho mentions, Ash-Greninja counterplay is usually deemed sufficient with a Baneful Bunker Toxapex, further reducing the need to use Hydreigon. Meanwhile, Choice Scarf sets fail to reach meaningful progress against basically any defensive backbone, other than scouting the opponent with U-turn. With Toxapex in particular pivoting into this set so freely, Choice Scarf Hydreigon has less opportunities to clean late-game currently. These sets are also easily overwhelmed in the long run, due to the lack of recovery. Nonetheless, Hydreigon remains a very splashable wallbreaker and speed control option, thus comfortably sitting in A+.


Greninja faces direct competition as a balance breaker due to its limited defensive utility and the lower damage output than more compelling options such as Hydreigon, Kyurem, and Cinderace. Due to species clause, the everpotent Ash-Greninja gives it very direct competition as well, both as a wallbreaker and an offensive Spikes setter. With the metagame steering away from Slowbro and Tapu Fini to Toxapex, Grassium Z sets have lost some of their appeal, while Groundium Z has to face mindgames against Baneful Bunker, which mostly renders Greninja a luxury to have against specific matchups.


Kartana is severely restricted by Tornadus-T's continued dominance as a pivot. Choice Scarf sets therefore fail to do anything meaningful nowadays. Choice Band and Z-Move sets, while potent, face competition from Mega Metagross and a few Z-Move users, which make them quite hard to justify as a result, meaning you will have to go out of your way to build around these sets. These traits are not very fitting for a Pokemon ranked in A, hence why it is dropping.

Corviknight is another such hard-to-justify Pokemon, albeit for different reasons. As a Defogger, it is far too passive to warrant a serious spot on most teams if it chooses to run Iron Defense + Body Press. Even though this passivity can be alleviated with U-turn, you are better off running Tornadus-T at that point in a majority of cases, as forgoing Iron Defense jeopardizes your chances of checking Mega Metagross and reliably removing hazards against Garchomp.

Mega Charizard Y is a matchup fish at best, and it is a rather mediocre one currently due to Toxapex's popularity combined with the fact that it is so hard to justify as a Mega Evolution over more dangerous or utile options such as Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Tyranitar.

The slate, for those who were curious to see how voting turned out!

 

[KirbCena]

-> S-

Mega Lopunny has been one of the metagame's best Megas for a long time now due to it's great utility in dual priority and therefore providing great speed control against opposing offensive teams. The recent quickban of Mega Alakazam was huge for Mega Lopunny, as it effectively removed one of the best answers to it. Furthermore, the DLC granting both Close Combat and U-turn to Mega Lopunny has allowed it to be by far the best non-Metagross mega in the tier, as Close Combat alleviates the previous issue of Protect minigames with HJK from Pokemon like Ferrothorn, while U-turn turns typical switchins that it can't answer like Slowbro, Toxapex, and Hippowdon into momentum for breakers like Kyurem and Lop's best friend in Ash-Gren. This newfound ability of being able to assist in making progress against bulkier teams through pivoting while still maintaining a stellar offense matchup thanks to speed and Fake Out is what I believe makes Mega Lopunny an S- tier mon.

-> C/UR

I understand that this is a bit controversial, but Zard Y continues to struggle in the tier. With Toxapex and Chansey being staples on the bulkier teams that this is supposed to beat, Zard Y tends to be a waste of a team slot. Zard Y also has major competition in Oven, who doesn't get walled by Pex, can run Boots, and can abuse Chansey if running Pain Split while also providing useful utility as a soft check to Darm-G, and Heatran, who has a far more stellar typing and utility in SR and Taunt. Competing for the Mega slot has also become more difficult, especially with the recent buff to Mega Lopunny, as well as the other megas like Metagross just being superior to Zard Y altogether due to them needing a lot less support to function in the first place. Overall, there just isn't much of reason to be using this on a serious team.

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

Hey everyone, due to the drastic metagame shifts that have arisen from the DLC, we will be locking this thread. We will make an updated VR in a new thread soon, so stay tuned!