Resource National Dex Viability Rankings [update post #116]

[Jordy]

Saying that Mega Metagross lacks coverage is a pretty brave claim to make considering the fact it needs just three moves to deal neutral damage to the majority of the metagame. I'd love to hear about these Pokemon it lacks coverage for. The Pokemon you mentioned don't count because they are overwhelmed by Zen Headbutt, Meteor Mash, and Thunder Punch respectively. Those moves are the three that Mega Metagross should ALWAYS run, meaning it will never lack coverage for them.

 

[Cuddly]

Saying that Mega Metagross lacks coverage is a pretty brave claim to make considering the fact it needs just three moves to deal neutral damage to the metagame. I'd love to hear about these Pokemon it lacks coverage for. The Pokemon you mentioned don't count because they are overwhelmed by Zen Headbutt, Meteor Mash, and Thunder Punch respectively. Those moves are the three that Mega Metagross should ALWAYS run, meaning it will never lack coverage for them.

I think the better term was 4 moves syndrome, and these were just examples.
MM+ZH+TP is resisted by Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Magnezone, and Pokemon like Heatran don't mind Thunder Punch while also threatening it out.
MM+ZH+EQ is then resisted by Corviknight and Skarmory, and it can't do anything to regular Slowbro or Mega Slowbro. It can even be switched into by a bulky spread off Gyarados/Mega Gyarados thanks to intimidate, and it can play mindgames too with being immune to Psychic and Earthquake in one form.
MM+ZH+HA also is screwed by Slowbro, but worse, as well as Aegislash and some of the previously mentioned Pokemon like Corviknight.
Pokemon like Melmetal, Hippowdown, Tangrowth, and Mega Scizor can stomach most of Megagross's hits without much trouble (Unless it uses a surprise HP Fire or Grass Knot, which is like never).
Landorus-T is also a good option as it lower's Megagross's attack and has STAB Earthquake, but doesn't like Ice Punch (which is less common).

 

[Jordy]

I think the better term was 4 moves syndrome, and these were just examples.
MM+ZH+TP is resisted by Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Magnezone, and Pokemon like Heatran don't mind Thunder Punch while also threatening it out.
MM+ZH+EQ is then resisted by Corviknight and Skarmory, and it can't do anything to regular Slowbro or Mega Slowbro. It can even be switched into by a bulky spread off Gyarados/Mega Gyarados thanks to intimidate, and it can play mindgames too with being immune to Psychic and Earthquake in one form.
MM+ZH+HA also is screwed by Slowbro, but worse, as well as Aegislash and some of the previously mentioned Pokemon like Corviknight.
Pokemon like Melmetal, Hippowdown, Tangrowth, and Mega Scizor can stomach most of Megagross's hits without much trouble (Unless it uses a surprise HP Fire or Grass Knot, which is like never).
Landorus-T is also a good option as it lower's Megagross's attack and has STAB Earthquake, but doesn't like Ice Punch (which is less common).

You forgot the 4th moveslot, which is commonly used for Earthquake or Hammer Arm to fill the coverage you'd need. My argument wasn't that Mega Metagross only needs those three moves to hit every Pokemon super effectively, it was that those are the only moves it necessarily needs to function. Mega Metagross does not suffer from 4 move slot syndrome; it's a very customizable Pokemon who's potential isn't significantly hurt by its supposed "need" for coverage. You can easily supplement Zen Headbutt + Meteor Mash + Thunder Punch with Hammer Arm to pressure Ferrothorn or Earthquake to pressure Aegislash if that is what you desire from Mega Metagross.

Besides, a Pokemon does not need to be completely perfect without any flaws to be S rank. Your argument that Mega Metagross struggles with coverage is a poor argument in general and not really an argument against having Mega Metagross in S even if it was an argument that held water.

It's pretty clear you have no idea what 4 move slot syndrome is, or what you're talking about when it comes to Mega Metagross or this metagame in general, so I'd suggest that you do a little more research with regards to those things first.

 

[Zneon]

Alright here's my nominations

A+ -> A

Aegislash has fallen off I feel. Out of all the Pokemon in A+ this Pokemon is the one I feel has literally no usage whatsoever, Dark-types have been being more and more popular with the rise of Hydreigon and much much more Ash-gren usage, and it does not have enough tools to really deal with them, Choice Band has gotten less relevant with Physically defensive Tangrowth being a great wall to it, Choice Specs is outclassed by Ash-gren, though SubToxic and SD + Z Move do find quite a bit of use. It just doesn't have the splashability of everything in A+ and that's simply because of the fact that the metagame hasn't been kind to it, though it perfectly fits in A in my eyes.

A-> A+

I've started to really see just how dangerous Ash Greninja really is, it has very limited switch ins, the best ones I can think of are pretty relevant are Chansey, Fini and probably AV Tangrowth, and its ability to force switches each game allows it to always get up at least one layer of Spike which is invaluable, especially when its wearing down its checks. It has a great matchup against the majority of the mons here, being able to threaten Slowbro, Rotom-H and Mega Metagross and forcing them out, to being able to revenge kill Scarfers or faster Pokemon like Galarian Darmanitan or Mega Lopunny. It's also a much more splashable wallbreaker than it was before because of how its able to threaten these Pokemon along with its sheer power and excellent speed tier which allows it threaten a 2HKO on almost everything in the tier. Ash Greninja is just incredibly dangerous and potent I feel and should warrant a rise.

Other nominations

B -> C

Seismitoad has been getting worse and worse, the lack of Dracovish has really hurt it, the amount of bulky waters that can switch into Dracovish it are higher than ever and they outclass Seismitoad as bulky waters, there isn't a reason why you'd use this as a rocker over Garchomp or Lando-T.
Overall there's little reason why you would use Seismitoad in this metagame at this point.

A- -> B+ / B

Personally I don't find Mew that good now, hyper offense has gotten much less relevant over the past few months and that's its main niche and really only niche, which is being a suicide lead for hyper offense teams, since there is little reason to use it in most other circumstances, which is why I feel it should drop.

 

[Sputnik]

The Great C Rank Purge
So...yeah, the C ranks. Reserved for the niche stuff that should only be considered on some teams, or things that work, but are generally overshadowed by competition despite still retaining a niche over said competition.

Those that were with us for the first VR will remember our first C rank was gigantic and had a lot of stuff that would realistically never be considered. It's been trimmed a bit now, but I feel that it's not quite there yet. I'm gonna go through every C rank mon, and pick out what I personally think should stay, and what should go.

Stay: Niche pick for stall teams that need a check to GDarm and Kartana that also needs to be able to set Stealth Rock. It has competition in the Mega Slot from Sableye but some stall teams do need this thing. Prepare for a bunch of stall mons here, because the playstyle isn't in the greatest spot right now so a lot of stuff for it is down here.

Stay: Spore is a nice asset and it has the bonus of checking Mega Blastoise if you choose to run AV. Niche, but definitely deserving of its place.

UR: Zygarde got banned, which largely killed this things niche on stall. Sorry Avalugg.

Stay: Bit controversial, but a lot of teams these days are leaning towards slower Water resists like Tangrowth, Slowbro, and Ferrothorn, and Azumarill eats those for breakfast. It can also use its modest bulk to set up with Normalium against many targets. It's not great, but it can still put in some serious work and deserves its place on the VR in my opinion.

: Stay: This was just put on the VR and not enough around us has changed to justify ditching it. Refer to Chazm's post about it, he does a good job explaining its niche.

Stay: No-Brainer, this thing is extremely dangerous in the right hands and puts in value basically just by clicking Knock Off. Probably the king of the C ranks right now, in my opinion.

Undecided: Stay: After testing this for a while I've come to the conclusion that this is still deserving of the C rank. It gives some bulkier cores a lot of grief if you can pivot it in, and the Magic Bouncing Stealth Rocker is always nice. Not amazing, and has exploitable weaknesses, but it's alright.

Stay: Rare pick but Sub+Dragonium is a proven set that can put in work. Not most people's first choice for a wallbreaker but it's fundamentally a decent choice.

Stay: Getting Knock Off and a significantly improved speed tier gives this a strong niche over its Mega Medicham. A decent late game wincon against bulkier squads that can also wallbreak early game if it needs to.

UR: Tough call here, but the cost of using this as your mega over, well, anything else, as well as coverage issues now that Aegislash has returned, and an exploitable speed tier and defensive typing means that this things theoretical niche as a destroyer of balance cores doesn't usually pan out in practice.

UR: Banish this to the shadow realm. It's checks never went away, and now there's a big metal supercomputer running around that can slam it with a STAB move and outruns it. It's just....so bad.

UR: Use Ash-Gren.

Stay: A powerful wallbreaker with priority, Knock Off, a great STAB combination, and Stealth Rock if you want to go that route. Not a world beater but fundamentally a pretty solid pick.

UR: Checking Mega Metagross is done better by other Pokemon, and outside of that it has common weaknesses and can be taken advantage of by common Pokemon like GDarm, Tapu Fini, and Magearna. Not a fan of this thing

Stay: Sitting on rain, preventing Vish from spamming its STAB, and checking Mega Blastoise among other dangerous special attackers means that quite a few teams benefit from this things presense.

Stay: Memes aside, Mimikyu does have a niche in the tier thanks to Disguise, which can actually allow it to take out something like Meta Blastoise, Mega Charizard X, and Gyarados after some chip. Ghost / Fairy is also a pretty sweet offensive typing, and with Disguise up it actually can threaten a decently hard hit on a pretty good slug of the metagame. C is the right place for it imo.

Stay: Gotta get those PP stalls on your stall team. Also HDB could potentially allow this to function on some normal teams but I haven't tried that yet.

Stay: Full disclosure, I thought this thing wouldn't be worth it until I tried it. It hits basically everything really hard and has amazing coverage. You're prediction game needs to be on point, because most teams have immunities to a lot of moves that it runs, but it breaks down balance cores easily and sits at a speed tier that puts it well above several key Pokemon, despite being slower than much of the offensive metagame. Pretty sweet if you ask me.

Stay: Eh, this thing is ok. It can take care of some pretty dangerous Pokemon like GDarm and then put you in a world of pain. It's not great, but it's not bad and some stall teams still benefit from this things presense.

UR: Quagsire's relatively mediocre bulk is really starting to show. Even Mega Metagross, something you would expect this would check, slugs through after one Zen Headbutt flinch. Most teams are equipped to deal with Quagsire, and walling things like Zard X are done better by the other two Unaware mons.

Stay: Webs are viable, therefore Ribombee is viable. Not much to say here.

Stay: A sort of Corviknight that sets Spikes is a niche that a bunch of stall teams benefit from. It checks most of what Corviknight does despite bringing overall less to the table, and some stall teams that want to fit Spikes can find use for Skarmory's talents.

Stay: If you're ever tired of Reuniclus on Toxic Spikes give Suicune a try. It needs more support, but its PP stalling antics really annoy a lot of things and it can become a dangerous late game wincon.

UR: We tried for a while to make this work in the Discord, and I tried Choice Band and defensive sets on both sides. They all sucked. The small nerf in power hurts Choice Band, and as a Grass-type it's almost always outclassed by Tangrowth defensively, hell, I'd rather use Amoonguss. Grassy Terrain boosting things like Heatran is nice, but that's not enough to prevent it from being outclassed.

Undecided: I need to experiment with this a bit more. Seems fundamentally ok but I'd like to properly test out its Z sets first.

Stay: Sun is ok right now, and these two are on every sun team. Not much more to say really.

Other Stuff

B -> B- I don't support dropping Seismitoad all the way down to C. It's fallen off a bit, but the niche of a Water that sets Stealth Rock and can act as a interim mmeta check is pretty damn useful for a decent amount of teams. It's not C rank material imo.

B -> B- Stall is struggling to keep up, therefore this thing is struggling. It's still really good at what it does, but what it does just isn't as good anymore.

 

[Kodie]

Diancie-Mega
C -> B-
This Pokemon is an incredible anti-lead. It is able to apply offensive pressure with a strong mixed set, as well as keep hazards / status from being set up. It can also be used to get your own stealth rocks up.

It eats through many threats and sits in a good speed tier. Due to its relatively low usage, many teams are unprepared for it.


Some stats:
4 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 390-462 (107.7 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
OHKO all offensive Lando sets except choice scarf
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 368-436 (96.3 - 114.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO al
4 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 206-246 (60.4 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 264-312 (68.9 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It works great vs stall, it can 3hko Chansey and 2hko most others that aren't ferrothorn. If definitely has weaknesses, priority bullet punch, scarfers, etc, but definitely feels stronger than a C. I climbed to 1520 with her.

 

[KirbCena]

Diancie-Mega
C -> B-
This Pokemon is an incredible anti-lead. It is able to apply offensive pressure with a strong mixed set, as well as keep hazards / status from being set up. It can also be used to get your own stealth rocks up.

It eats through many threats and sits in a good speed tier. Due to its relatively low usage, many teams are unprepared for it.


Some stats:
4 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 390-462 (107.7 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
OHKO all offensive Lando sets except choice scarf
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 368-436 (96.3 - 114.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO al
4 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Diancie-Mega Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 206-246 (60.4 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 264-312 (68.9 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It works great vs stall, it can 3hko Chansey and 2hko most others that aren't ferrothorn. If definitely has weaknesses, priority bullet punch, scarfers, etc, but definitely feels stronger than a C. I climbed to 1520 with her.

This is honestly not a very good argument at all for Mega Diancie for several reasons:

First off, the only teams that aren't prepared for Mega Diancie are teams that aren't running Mega Metagross, Tapu Fini, and any other popular viable pick in the meta. Basically, only low ladder teams would ever lose to this. This also makes no mention of any useful information that could potentially justify a rise in viability. Yeah this sets up Stealth Rock, but so do Garchomp, Megagross, Heatran, etc and they can actually threaten the 3 most common defoggers in the tier in Torn-T, Tapu Fini, and Corviknight. Diancie only beats Torn while Corv just clicks Roost and Defog while PP stalling with Pressure, and Fini just 2HKOes with Scald. Most rockers have ways to kill this on the switch if it mispredicts too thanks to its awful bulk.

There's also some major problems with your calcs:

1. No one runs HP Ice on Diancie. It's redundant with Moonblast which already hits Lando-T(who isn't even that relevant rn) hard, ruins Diancie's already middling coverage and makes your matchup against the many Steels in the meta even worse since you're likely giving up Earth Power or HP Fire for HP Ice.
2. No one runs 252HP/4Def Clefable. Seriously, SpDef Clef is god awful.
3. 3HKOing Chansey with Diamond Storm isn't exactly a feat. That just means Chansey can spam Softboiled and chip Mega Diancie heavily with Seismic Toss while taking advantage of Storm's low PP.

Also, nobody runs Ferrothorn on stall, and Diancie's matchup against stall isn't super great regardless. Aside from forcing out Mega Sableye to set rocks, they can just pivot in their Chansey or bulky Steel(even Skarmory doesn't care for this that much and can threaten it with Counter or the rare Iron Head) and wear your team down.

 

[Kodie]

This is honestly not a very good argument at all for Mega Diancie for several reasons:

First off, the only teams that aren't prepared for Mega Diancie are teams that aren't running Mega Metagross, Tapu Fini, and any other popular viable pick in the meta. Basically, only low ladder teams would ever lose to this. This also makes no mention of any useful information that could potentially justify a rise in viability. Yeah this sets up Stealth Rock, but so do Garchomp, Megagross, Heatran, etc and they can actually threaten the 3 most common defoggers in the tier in Torn-T, Tapu Fini, and Corviknight. Diancie only beats Torn while Corv just clicks Roost and Defog while PP stalling with Pressure, and Fini just 2HKOes with Scald. Most rockers have ways to kill this on the switch if it mispredicts too thanks to its awful bulk.

There's also some major problems with your calcs:

1. No one runs HP Ice on Diancie. It's redundant with Moonblast which already hits Lando-T(who isn't even that relevant rn) hard, ruins Diancie's already middling coverage and makes your matchup against the many Steels in the meta even worse since you're likely giving up Earth Power or HP Fire for HP Ice.
2. No one runs 252HP/4Def Clefable. Seriously, SpDef Clef is god awful.
3. 3HKOing Chansey with Diamond Storm isn't exactly a feat. That just means Chansey can spam Softboiled and chip Mega Diancie heavily with Seismic Toss while taking advantage of Storm's low PP.

Also, nobody runs Ferrothorn on stall, and Diancie's matchup against stall isn't super great regardless. Aside from forcing out Mega Sableye to set rocks, they can just pivot in their Chansey or bulky Steel(even Skarmory doesn't care for this that much and can threaten it with Counter or the rare Iron Head) and wear your team down.

These are very valid points. Maybe it's just the surprise of running Mega-Diancie that's doing work for me, as I have felt like she may be better off being replaced. Maybe things will be a bit different with the dlc, as I believe that will introduce some interesting moves to her.

 

[Dr.M]

Blastoise-SSS Rank

im sorry but this thing is just way too broken in the meta.After one shell smash it just kills a team.I hope this is banned because it is so broken atm

 

[Rose]

Blastoise-SSS Rank

im sorry but this thing is just way too broken in the meta.After one shell smash it just kills a team.I hope this is banned because it is so broken atm

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoise
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam

While Mega Blastoise may be quite a potent breaker it is not without its checks (AV tangrowth, tapu fini, spd unaware clef etc.) The playstyle it can be run on is also quite limited compared to other picks, working most effectively with spikes support.

 

[Dr.M]

Tapu Fini is 3HKOdk.AV Tangrowth is OHKOd by Ice Beam.Clefable is the only check to it as everything else gets drowned by Water Pulse,Dark Pulse and Ice Beam.THis shit is stupid broken

 

[Solaros & Lunaris]

VR Revamp Time

New VR

S Rank:

Metagross-Mega

A Rank:

A+

Blastoise-Mega
Corviknight - Lots of people have been talking about Corviknight and I gotta agree. It fits on all sorts of teams and nothing really stops it from doing its thing. Magnezone doesn’t even bother it due to U-turn.
Darmanitan-Galar
Ferrothorn
Heatran
Rotom-Heat
Tapu Fini
Tornadus-Therian

A

Aegislash - Aegi does not feel too great right now. Toxic sets are stopped by any Poison, Steel or Gliscor/Fini, while SD can be hard to fit onto teams. I don’t think Aegi is terrible though—just not A+ right now.
Clefable - Clef is also not A+ material and feels more at home in A. A lot of mons simply dunk on Clef, whether its MMeta, Tran, Oven or Ferro. Letting these threats in nearly for free is not good for any team in general.
Greninja
Greninja-Ash
Kartana
Lopunny-Mega
Magnezone
Slowbro - While Slowbro and Pex are not bad, they compete with Fini who can Defog, check Tran Toise GDarm and AshGren as well as pseudo-stallbreak. These two are still great Regen pivots but having to dedicate another slot to a Stoise check really does hurt them.
Tangrowth - Zygarde left. DragZ Chomp and Gliscor are on the rise. Oven is better than ever. None of this is good for Tangrowth.
Toxapex - See Bro above.
Tyranitar-Mega
Volcarona

A-

Alakazam-Mega
Chansey
Ditto
Dragapult
Garchomp - See my post above, but tl;dr Garchomp’s a great Rocker, Tran/Oven check and hard to switch into in general.
Gliscor - The meta is in a state right now where Gliscor can sit and setup on many passive mons to just 6-0 bulkier builds. Like Chomp, this deals with Tran, but trades the Oven MU for reliable recovery and a Ground-immunity.
Hydreigon
Landorus-Therian
Latios-Mega - See my post above, but Lati is another solid Tran vheck that is hard to switch into if you lack, say, Slowbro or Ferro. Lots of Steels are decently chipped by Earthquake, and it doesnt really have issues sparring with the Steels that arent (Corvi for example).
Magearna
Mew
Scizor-Mega
Slowbro-Mega
Tyranitar

B Rank:

B+

Gengar - Super underrated. Dumpsters stall and slower balances. NP Ghostium will basically get a kill which means a lot more without Zygarde to be sacked. Although I haven’t tested it fully, SubWisp also seems annoying for certain mons.
Latias-Mega
Medicham-Mega
Pelipper
Rotom-Wash
Serperior
Swampert-Mega
Tapu Lele
Zapdos - Oven kinda invalidates this tbh. Zap isnt bad, but we have a lot of Defoggers that I’d rather use.

B

Charizard-Mega-X
Excadrill - Sand isn’t too good right now with Corviknight everywhere, and this is outclassed as a suicide lead by Mew.
Gastrodon
Grimmsnarl
Kommo-o
Kyurem
Melmetal
Mawile-Mega - I have a hard time justifying this over MMeta or Melmetal, each having their own perks (great speed, excellent neutral coverage, godly bulk and powerful attacks). Not bad by any means, but very much outclassed.
Reuniclus
Sableye-Mega
Seismitoad
Victini
Weavile

B-

Alomomola
Amoonguss - Good Mtoise check, again see my post above. Also has unholy Spore which is even better with no Tapu Koko.
Bisharp
Blacephalon
Crawdaunt - Ludicrous breaker with great utility in Knock Off and Aqua Jet. Really quite a pain to switch into because Fini does not take kindly to no Lefties.
Charizard-Mega-Y
Dracovish
Gallade-Mega - Like Gengar, a very underrated breaker thats a bit better than Medicham imo. See my post above.
Gyarados
Hoopa-Unbound
Hippowdon
Jirachi
Manaphy
Venusaur-Mega
Volcanion

C Rank:

Aggron-Mega
Azumarill
Conkeldurr
Diancie-Mega
Dracozolt
Gyarados-Mega - Gyara is a slot on HO dedicated to MegaToise, who is way more terrifying as a sweeper.
Hawlucha - While I nommed a lot of mons that beat this thing down a subrank, they’re genuinely good and destroy it to no end. Hawlucha also gets only one sweeping oppurtunity and thats really not too good in a meta where there are more consistent sweepers.
Mamoswine
Mantine
Mimikyu
Moltres
Nidoking
Pyukumuku
Ribombee
Skarmory
Suicune
Thundurus-Therian
Torkoal
Venusaur

You’ll notice alot of mons just kinda vanished from C, and thats because I agree with everything Sputnik said.

Thank you for coming to my notTED talk.

 

[KirbCena]

Tapu Fini is 3HKOdk.AV Tangrowth is OHKOd by Ice Beam.Clefable is the only check to it as everything else gets drowned by Water Pulse,Dark Pulse and Ice Beam.THis shit is stupid broken

Fini does NOT get 3HKOed by Mega Blastoise. If you've bothered to even to use the damage calculator, she's not even guaranteed to be 4HKOED by the coverage moves and Water Pulse guarantees only a 4HKO while Fini retaliates with a guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock with Moonblast. AV Tang isn't OHKOED from full by Ice Beam either and OHKOes with Grass Knot after a Shell Smash. Maybe do your research before posting.

 

[Dr.M]

Maybe do your research before posting.

Your post makes me wanna close combat 5 times then Baton Pass

 

[NuttyRabbit]

View attachment 233461

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Maybe do your research before posting

You're telling us to do your research while posting calcs using Modest Blastoise (A nature which is objectively inferior to Timid since the lower speed makes you easier to revenge kill) and using a move that no Blastoise would ever run (Hydro Cannon, which is objectively inferior to Hydro Pump and even Water Pulse because of the recharge time which again, makes you far easier to revenge kill)

Also this doesn't disprove KirbCena's points that Fini 2HKOS with Moonblast after rocks and that Tang can eat a hit and revenge with Grass Knot. That's also not covering offensive counterplay to Mega Blastoise like priority from Mega Lopunny and faster scarfers like Greninja which can OHKO with Grass Knot.

 

[KirbCena]

View attachment 233461

View attachment 233462

Maybe do your research before posting

You do realize that's with a Modest nature right? As in, a neutral-speed nature AND a move that nobody runs? Again, maybe do your research before posting, because your lack of coherency in regards to this meta is all too obvious.

 

[Dr.M]

O.M.F.G.I accidentally put Hydro Cannon instead of Hydro Pump in.Sorry bout that lol
Bruh that Hydro Cannon sounds viable lol
what happened was I just typed Hydro in and thought it auto clicked to Hydro Pump

 

[War Incarnate]

View attachment 233461

View attachment 233462

Maybe do your research before posting

Ah crap, here we go again... some idiot makes some shit post in the VR and then we got someone that has to clean up the shit for them because the idiots who made those posts were too lazy to do so... seriously?

Anyways, although I'm not too experienced myself with NatDex (tried playing it and fucked up miserably, never doing it again), let me just say that this post is so fucked up it's not funny. Fuck it, let's get to this post (it hurts my eyes even looking at it)

First off, who the hell runs Hydro Cannon on Mega Blastoise? You have no reason to run that shit over Hydro Pump, because of that recharge turn. You realize how easy it is to take advantage of Mega Blastoise when it can't really do anything.

Second, why the fuck are you running a Modest nature? You should be running Timid to outspeed more shit after Shell Smash's +2 speed boost. (okay, it still does get outsped by Scarf Greninja and faster priority abusers like Mega Lopunny (although I don't really think it's one because its only form of priority is only useable once unless it switches out and comes back in)) Furthermore, Modest doesn't really hit any noticeable offensive benchmarks that a Timid-natured Blastoise doesn't already.

*sigh* KirbCena and NuttyRabbit already make a fair point here, actually be smart and not just post something you didn't even bother to come up with. Fuck it I'm out

 

[Cuddly]

slaking UR-C

This looks like a meme but CHOICE BAND GIGA IMPACT LOL YOU KILL META MEGAGROSS IN 2 SHOTS LMFAO
STUPID ASS VERLISFY LOOKING MEGA WARTORTLE ALSO GETS SHOT IN THE HEAD BY IT.CORVIKNIGHT EH,SCREW THAT BIRD 2HKO LMAFOOXXXDXXD

nah all seriousness though Slaking does have a tiny nice as an absolute nuke

I won't be too harsh on you, seeing as you just joined about an hour ago, but here is some advice:
For starters, big damage is nothing if you aren't consistently dealing it our about to sweep.

For Slaking, almost any Pokemon that can survive one of its hits (if not immune depending on what it is locked into) can be counter-productive at best or detrimental at worst.
With Slaking and Giga Impact/Hyper Beam, you let your opponent do what the next turn always (and that's if they don't just protect).
Take a this match-up of Slaking vs Slowbro, facing off in a 1v1.
252 Atk Choice Band Slaking Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 328-387 (83.4 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Normally, if a Pokemon without Truant using a regular move did this sort of damage, it would be unstoppable.
But since Slaking has Truant, the Slowbro in this scenario can do a lot.
-Slowbro can just Slack Off all the damage, knowing Slaking can't move the turn after.
-Slowbro can try to Scald Slaking twice, which has a 51% chance that either hit will burn
-A combination of those 2 things
-Slowbro can do any of the above, then can just switch into a Resist like Corviknight or a Ghost type like Dragapult, who will force Slaking out, giving them a free turn to do damage, set up, or have the advantage in a double switch (well, Corviknight would actually get 2 free turns, where it can bulk up).

Secondly, understand the term diminishing returns and "effective damage".
In Pokemon, most things are balanced by external factors like their BST distribution, negative effects, ect.
Obviously, a Pokemon with 255/255/255/255/255/255 stats is going to be better than 250/255/255/255/255/255, assuming that they are identical in every other way.
Problem is that it isn't by much, since the numbers are just so high.
An other example is the BP of Max moves vs the BP of Z-moves.
Z-moves in general would often be about 175 BP, give or take, while Max moves would be 130 BP-140 BP.
It's a 35-45 BP difference, but you already are doing so much damage with Max moves that the extra 40 BP rarely makes a difference.
That brings me to my other point in "effective damage".
By Effective Damage, I mean "How much of X moves can Y Pokemon take?"
To wrap back around to the topic, in the scenario before, Slowbro can take 2 CB Giga Impacts from Jolly Slaking, not even fully invested.
You know what else can kill a Slowbro in 2 hits while not being as detrimental?
Well aside from Special Attackers;
Mega Charizard X:
252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 195-231 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Darmanitan-G:
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 198-234 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Weavile:
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 230-272 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Weavile Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 156-186 (39.6 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(the cumulative damage it still a 2HKO)
Ferrothorn:
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 188-224 (47.8 - 56.9%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
MelMetal:
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 266-314 (67.6 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mamoswine:
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 207-244 (52.6 - 62%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tyranitar (locked into Stone Edge, not even needing Crunch):
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 211-249 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
Dragapult (which actually OHKOs):
252+ Atk Dragapult Never-Ending Nightmare (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Slowbro: 456-536 (116 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not only do these Pokemon have the same ability to 2HKO Slowbro, they can actually kill Slowbro without crits, and they provide other positives as well.
Zard can utilize its typing to tank powerful fire attacks.
Darmanitan-G is one scary S.O.B. and can force switches.
Weavile is fast, has priority when it's too slow, and can cripple walls.
Ferrothorn can soak up powerful attacks it resists, lay hazards, and punish fast Pokemon/Contact abusers with Gyro Ball and Iron Barbs.
Melmetal is physically tanky with a steel typing and hits really hard.
Mamoswine can set up rocks while threatening out Defoggers and other rock setters.
Tyranitar has a surprisingly good typing, mixed with a Spd boost, provides Sand for its teammates and sand to nullify leftovers, and hits hard too.
And Dragapult is super fast, can dip both ways, and being a Ghost provides immunities to 2 types.
Slaking does not provide any of these besides being tanky (which is nullified when Truant gives your opponent a free turn, which could be 2 attacks).
The extra fire power Slaking does only really matters in this scenario if you had done chip damage prior, which kind of contradicts the point of running a Pokemon solely for massive damage.

Hopefully this helps you in the future with discussion and explains why Slaking should remain unranked.

 

[TAOChingChong]

A- -> A at the very least. I hesitate on A+, but here we go.
There are a couple different sets that Mega Scizor can run; SD, Defog, Curse, Pivot, and other picks. I'm going to be discussing the Curse and SD set as I feel those have the best viability in this tier.

I believe Mega Scizor is able to apply much pressure to many mons and teams alike. One thing that stands out is its bulk, which is 70/140/100, which is really good. Barring fire type moves, not much can OHKO this thing. That along with its decent 75 speed tier (which is actually really fast if you think about it for a defensive mon) and access to recovery make it hard to kill. Not only that, its great 150 attack stat with Technician STAB boosted +1 priority Bullet Punches along with U-turns to pivot give it good offensive pressure. SD is also great, but Curse appears to be even better in this metagame.

Offensively speaking, there's no doubt that M-Scizor will be able to dent a member of the opposing team. It walls Magearna (and if Magearna attempts to set up, M-Scizor can just do the same and hit it with Bullet Punches) and Landorus-T with Curse. Apart from the rare HP-fire, Mega Scizor is able to switch in on M-Metagross, the clear number one pokemon in the tier, and set up on it freely. If Stealth Rocks are up, Scizor is able to actually deal with some fire types. For example, 252 HP 252 ATK Adamant nature M-Scizor has a very high chance to 2HKO M-Charizard after rocks. M-Alakazam can't do much but run, since it doesn't want to face the brunt of a U-turn, Chansey just dies lol, Kartana and M-Lopunny get hard bodied, M-Ttar (barring fire punch variants) get steamrolled by both of M-Scizor's stabs, and even if it does pack fire punch, M-Scizor can U-turn out. Volcarona, Magnezone, Corviknight, and other mons wall this set, but we can talk about that later.

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 146-172 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (146, 147, 150, 151, 153, 155, 156, 158, 159, 162, 163, 165, 167, 168, 170, 172)

That might seem dumb, but if you're in a situation where you have the advantage with M-Scizor (for ex, against Slowbro/Tang/Clef/G-Darm), and you SD on the switch, you can potentially have a game won on the spot.

Common counters such as Rotom-H and Heatran are either weak/not resistant to Stealth rock as well, and lack reliable recovery. Even though Rotom-H uses Heavy Duty boots a lot of times, using Knock from a teammate limits its ability to stand up to M-Scizor. Paired with Seismitoad or Gastrodon, or just straight up U-turning every time the aforementioned mons switch in, you can effectively chip away at those mons. Ferrothorn, which honestly doesn't even qualify as a check/counter, can attempt to try to T-wave/Leech, but M-Scizor with Curse/SD sets up and wins. The only pokemon I really see M-Scizor struggle with on the higher tier list would probably be Torn-Therian and Toxapex, since those both have regenerator, and Torn can fire off hurricanes/heat waves, where Toxapex can scald burn and resist its STABs.

Without a doubt, M-Scizor isn't going to scare down Heatran or Rotom-H, but situations where U-turn is handy, chipping is VERY easy. 0 Atk M-Scizor with Impish nature does a lot to Rotom-H.

0 Atk Scizor-Mega U-turn vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Heat: 51-60 (17.2 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
Possible damage amounts: (51, 51, 52, 53, 54, 54, 54, 55, 56, 57, 57, 57, 58, 59, 60, 60)

Now, this doesn't necessarily apply to Heatran who has a 4 times resistance both STABs, but then again, Heatran packs the weakness to fighting and water, two common offensive moves, and a wopping 4 times weakness to ground. Scizor only has a 4 times weakness to fire, and nothing else. With proper teammate support, Mega Scizor has the potential to be devastating.

Other counters such as Magnezone, Volcarona, and Corviknight are pretty good against M-Scizor. That is, until you consider all of them have pretty big weaknesses. Magnezone has a plethora of weaknesses, and just loses its purpose if M-Scizor U-turns, Volcarona dies to any rock moves and has weak physical bulk, and Corviknight is overwhelmed pretty easily. I've never gone into a game thinking, "Ugh, they have a Corviknight" because there are so many things that just deal with it naturally well.

Honestly, if I had to wrap it up properly, this is the way:
TLDR, M-Scizor is very good at giving off offensive pressure and has very good stats overall. It's able to threaten lots of pokemon in the metagame, even the number one spot M-Metagross, and if you predict a switch-in to a counter (which honestly isn't hard at all), you can pivot out to a counter to that counter and gain momentum. Most counters have a very big weakness that is exploitable with the momentum.

 

[Funbot28]

With the metagame rapidly progressing, the VR council has decided to vote on another slate in regards to noms made in the thread alongside some other internal nominations made between us. Here are the results:

Voting Sheet

Rises
B+ to A-
B+ to A-
B+ to A-
B to A-
B- to B+
B- to B
B- to B
C to B-
C to B-

Some Explanations

Ever since the Zygarde ban, Garchomp has been excelling in the current metagame acting as a powerful SD setter that can break through the majority of balance teams thanks to SD + Dragonium Z. It's typing + bulk is also great when trying to counteract certain top meta threats such as Rotom-H, Heatran, and Tornadus-T. Bulkier sets have also gone on the rise in an attempt to wear down common physical attackers such as Kartana, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Metagross, a job that it's quite adequate at performing.

Kyurem is another Dragon-type wallbreaker that has risen to prominence ever since the Genesect ban as it's newfound access to Freeze Dry allows it to eliminate previous worry-some checks such as Tapu Fini, Toxapex, and Rotom-W. It's STAB + coverage combination in general combined with the flexibility of it's set deemed it worthy enough of a rise, despite the recent fix to Metronome.

Bisharp has been surging on HO teams as of late thanks to it's incredible power and ability to deter common Defog users such as Tornadus-T, non-Body Press Corviknight, and Tapu Fini. The ability to pick off weakened offensive threats with Sucker Punch mindgames combined with the general annoyance of trying to switch into it's STAB attacks made it worthy enough to rise two whole sub-ranks.

Amoonguss has been picking up lately thanks to it's AV set which provides teams with another way of counteracting a boosted Mega Blastoise outside of Tapu Fini and Scarf Greninja. It's coverage is also surprisingly difficult to switch into considering the surge of Stomping Tantrum usage which enables it to beat one of it's most common checks in Heatran.

Drops
A+ to A
A+ to A
A- to B+
A- to B+
A- to B+
A- to B+
B to B-
B to B-
B to B-
C to UR
C to UR
C to UR
C to UR
C to UR
C to UR

Some Explanations

Dragapult has been having a hard time performing in the recent metagame considering how common checks such as Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, and AV Magearna are. While it can circumvent some of these checks depending on the moveset it chooses to run, it seems that Pult can always still struggle to break past certain defensive cores especially once it has used it's Z-move. For that, it has been considered to drop.

While Teleport Chansey has been seeing some usage on balance teams, it still acts as a momentum suck for most teams outside of stall. The influx of physical breakers in the tier also do not offer it any favours combined with certain special breakers such as Mega Blastoise being able to overwhelm it after a boost or two.

While Ferrothorn is still an incredible defensive support mon, the rise of Fire-types since the Zygarde ban such as Rotom-H, Heatran, and Volcarona have not being doing it any favours. Entry hazard removal has also been quite easy to come by with users such as Tornadus-T being common and very potent. Even supposed mons its supposed to check like Tapu Fini commonly carry Knock Off which can severely cripple it in the long run, meaning it has appropriate to drop it.

There was a bunch of UR moves made as well but to sum it up, none of these mons have an actual place in the current metagame and often struggle to carve a niche when compared to other threats still ranked, thus leading them to be removed.

Let us know if you need further clarification on any changes! There will be another VR slate after the Mega Blastoise suspect concludes probably so look out for that!

 

[Xoliduz]

I think we can all agree to most of these rank changes, though im curious about why mega gallade is rising.

And as a side note, I have discovered Mega Garde to be the premier wish warper in national dex. Unlike clefable it retains offensive presence with a substantial SpD bonus. Able to do thinks like take a hit from plus 2 Megablastoise hydro pump after rocks and ko with hyper voice.

Paired with magnezone, or powerful bulky wallbreakers to utilize wish warp this set may have potential in national dex. I will continue to test and promote her usage. Maybe she will return to the light after a long absence in gen 7.

 

[KirbCena]

I think we can all agree to most of these rank changes, though im curious about why mega gallade is rising.

And as a side note, I have discovered Mega Garde to be the premier wish warper in national dex. Unlike clefable it retains offensive presence with a substantial SpD bonus. Able to do thinks like take a hit from plus 2 Megablastoise hydro pump after rocks and ko with hyper voice.

Paired with magnezone, or powerful bulky wallbreakers to utilize wish warp this set may have potential in national dex. I will continue to test and promote her usage. Maybe she will return to the light after a long absence in gen 7.

Mega Gallade rose because it can take on a lot of bulkier builds like Balance thanks to its access to Knock Off, which when boosted can easily eliminate stuff like Aegislash and Slowbro. This gives it a huge advantage over its competition in Mega Medicham, who doesn't have Knock Off and would have to run inferior coverage options to beat them.

As for your Mega Gardevoir set, yeah don't run Mega Garde. It's trash for a lot of reasons, so I'll list them here:

1. As a wallbreaker, it's completely outclassed by Tapu Lele and Mega Alakazam. Lele outclasses Gardevoir because it doesn't take up your mega slot and can run boosting items with Psychic Surge, which makes it much stronger. Mega Zam outclasses because it can actually outspeed stuff AND has recovery. It also has some defensive utility in being a somewhat safe switchin to Heatran thanks to Trace, as well as being able to Knock Off items.
2. Nobody's going to use Garde as a pivot over Clefable. It's physical bulk is absolute garbage and that SpD stat means nothing when its HP stat is pretty low, which is yet another reason why Clef is better as a WishWarp pivot, as it heals a lot more with Wish. Clef also actually checks stuff because again, it's got better overall bulk, beating stuff like Mega Lopunny with a full-on Phys. Def set, while beating stuff like Hydreigon with a more mixed investment set. Clef also doesn't take up the Mega slot either, and pure-Fairy typing is a hell of a lot better than Psychic-Fairy defensively. WishTect + Teleport is also a huge waste of Garde's moveslots, leaving it unable to actually hit stuff that it otherwise could, such as Ferrothorn with Focus Blast/Mystical Fire. Offensive presence means nothing if you can't actually hit stuff that isn't neutral or super effectively affected by Pixilate Hyper Voice.

TL;DR Mega Gardevoir is shit as a WishWarp pivot because it's outclassed by Clefable due to Clef's better typing,overall bulk, and better base HP for bigger Wishes. As a wallbreaker, it's less powerful compared to Lele and wastes your Mega slot, and it lacks decent recovery and is much slower when compared to Mega Alakazam.


So yeah, Mega Gardevoir sucks in NatDex OU, but if you wanna use it where it isn't bad, I'd recommend checking out the NatDex UU Metagame Discussion. Hopefully this cleared some stuff up for you.

 

[Xoliduz]

Ah see, I agree with almost everything you have said and merely suspect it to be better then some of the C ranked pokemon. However wish teleport clefable in no way outclasses it.

Its not a very good set in national dex while seeming to dominate ou. While Mega Slots like Zam outclass garde offensively and superior wallbreakers like lele have a easier time breaking this is not the comparison I am making. Wish teleport is on two pokemon in the tier. Garde and Clef, in use here is what I have found.

Clefable has a much harder time wish warping due to her overall low bst. Her inability to threaten neutral threats like manaphy for example or mega blastoise make her a momentum sink, in use she becomes overwhelmed quickly and lacks any presence on offensive teams. Defensive teams prefer clefable to use other support moves and momentum is less valued as its easier to hard switch into your opponents pokemon.

While a number of threats can come in to absorb a defensive clefables moonblast much less come into hyper voice. This strengthens her core with magnezone as it forces steels in more consistently. However, I think the largest factor to the success I had over clefable is due to wish warping being a over all difficult roll for a pokemon to take on since it takes up 3 move slots. Ironically you said that it was wasting gards move slots but its the other way around. Clefable needs her moves alot more as hyper voice high base damage combined with a base 160 SpA on a base speed of 100 carry her and allow her to be able sacrifice moves in a way clefable simply struggles with.

Its largest weakness which you highlighted of course being your using this as your mega. Ultimately denying magnezone some ideal parters in Mega Zam, and Mega Pinsir. While difficult to work with and potentially never to be a ranked threat, Clefable does not outclass it as a wish warper, and I think this in the future will be more relevant then pokemon like Cune or Mega Aggron who are ranked. I hope this cleared things up for you.

Here are two test teams I built around her, both ran around 1700 with around 10-15 games, nothing overly thorough. Very simple magnezone trap and sweep strategies
Broken Link, will fix when I get home
Wish Warp Madness

Both teams are fun and abuse magnezone well. Note I am using Psychic Z Clefable on Warp wish madness to relieve the pressure Hos pose to her, phys attackers are strong in tier and she struggles to cover them and be able to wish warp. That helps alot.

 

[KirbCena]

Ah see, I agree with almost everything you have said and merely suspect it to be better then some of the C ranked pokemon. However wish teleport clefable in no way outclasses it.

Its not a very good set in national dex while seeming to dominate ou. While Mega Slots like Zam outclass garde offensively and superior wallbreakers like lele have a easier time breaking this is not the comparison I am making. Wish teleport is on two pokemon in the tier. Garde and Clef, in use here is what I have found.

Clefable has a much harder time wish warping due to her overall low bst. Her inability to threaten neutral threats like manaphy for example or mega blastoise make her a momentum sink, in use she becomes overwhelmed quickly and lacks any presence on offensive teams. Defensive teams prefer clefable to use other support moves and momentum is less valued as its easier to hard switch into your opponents pokemon.

While a number of threats can come in to absorb a defensive clefables moonblast much less come into hyper voice. This strengthens her core with magnezone as it forces steels in more consistently. However, I think the largest factor to the success I had over clefable is due to wish warping being a over all difficult roll for a pokemon to take on since it takes up 3 move slots. Ironically you said that it was wasting gards move slots but its the other way around. Clefable needs her moves alot more as hyper voice high base damage combined with a base 160 SpA on a base speed of 100 carry her and allow her to be able sacrifice moves in a way clefable simply struggles with.

Its largest weakness which you highlighted of course being your using this as your mega. Ultimately denying magnezone some ideal parters in Mega Zam, and Mega Pinsir. While difficult to work with and potentially never to be a ranked threat, Clefable does not outclass it as a wish warper, and I think this in the future will be more relevant then pokemon like Cune or Mega Aggron who are ranked. I hope this cleared things up for you.

Here are two test teams I built around her, both ran around 1700 with around 10-15 games, nothing overly thorough. Very simple magnezone trap and sweep strategies
Staraptor Zone
Wish Warp Madness

Both teams are fun and abuse magnezone well. Note I am using Psychic Z Clefable on Warp wish madness to relieve the pressure Hos pose to her, phys attackers are strong in tier and she struggles to cover them and be able to wish warp. That helps alot.

WishWarp is bad in this meta altogether, so I don't even get why you're even arguing for Gardevoir at all in that role. C rYou used the same link for both teams, so I only see one shit team posted here that autoloses to Mega Metagross because your one way of dealing with it is Seismitoad, who takes a shitton of damage from Zen Headbutt. In fact, this entire team loses to a bunch of stuff. You lose to stall because you've got no stallbreaker, and just about any team with Toxapex ruins your team too, the one mon that any should be able to deal with, as Magnezone gets easily abused by stuff like HP Ground Ditto. You have no wallbreaker either aside from the very specific Magnezone, with Ash-Gren being god-awful on its own. That Kartana set is awful too. Who tf runs SD and Giga Impact on Scarf? If you're going to argue for Gardevoir, at least show an actually good team.
You also fail to acknowledge other Steel-types in the meta that blast through this team that don't care about Magnezone either, such as Heatran and Aegislash to an extent. Not to mention you lack the necessary team element in a Defogger.
It's quite obvious you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to NatDex, nor do you know how to teambuild, so I'd recommend doing some research (which you should have done before even posting) in regards to that first before continuing your argument.