Metagame Nature Swap

[Pipotchi]

Youre right, this thread needs a revival. Let me add some more threats that I find interesting:

Sceptile @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Drain Punch
- Acrobatics

So this mon is abusing Grassy Terrain and unburden to sweep- grassy terrain boosted leaf blade coming off 120+ atk is powerful, and at +2 its hitting like a truck- not to mention reaching 610 speed. The +1 defense plus drain punch grants it both survivability and coverage to break through opponents also, while acrobatics hits grass types that resist the strongest attack- but Thunder Punch could be used to ohko celesteela paired with Electric seed, along with Earthquake since Grassy Terrain wont be reducing its power.

Moltres @ Charti Berry
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Roost
- Toxic
- Flamethrower

Moltres now has defog with flame body, which means it can punish a lot of u-turn shenanigans. The extra defense boost is going to be big against the mons that want to hit moltres with physical attacks.

Kartana @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
- Defog
- Sacred Sword
- Leaf Blade
- Synthesis

Kartana is another example of a great new defogger, switching in on a lot of rock type or steel type hazard setters and removing them thanks to its hefty 181 defense. its attack stays pretty huge too, so it can still hit hard and be used offensively somewhat also. Synthesis lets it stay healthy throughout the match.

Necrozma @ Psychium Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rock Polish
- Photon Geyser
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power

A simple Necrozma set will put in a lot of work. This set simple clicks rock polish and then goes to town thanks to its powerful coverage.

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Calm Mind

Diancies set is simple too, but it loves that the pink blobs are removed from the tier. It can put in a large amount of work just thanks to its huge special attack and 160 speed, and probably deserves being considered for a ban considering how widespread its options are and how it can even take out its counters with specific sets.

 

[LordHelix]

Neat sets, love the kartana one especially

It might be too early to tell but you're right Diancie looks terrifying for offensive teams, although on the other side it doesn't look too terrifying for balance since balance still has things like tangrowth,celesteela gastro and such to switch into it so I'm not sure if it's banworthy yet

Really looking forward for this meta to win omotm some day ^^

 

[TheTapDancer]

I feel like Calm has to be a better nature for Kartana, as it already has decent physical bulk. Sure it's not got any offensive presence after that but Defog/Synthesis/KO/Toxic would make a hilarious backwards-ferrothorn.

 

[Pipotchi]

If you want to have a kartana with high special defense -which makes sense to try and beat perhaps koko and also lure magneton, IMO the best sets are going to be Sassy (giving 59/131/109 defenses) or a set which i think is really fire- AV offensive Gentle (59/31/131) set. The gentle set is pretty cool because with av and no investment its going to eat a hp fire from scarf hasty zone (takes about 52% max) and ohko back with sacred sword. the garbage defense and mediocre speed (by NS standards) means scarf and sd sets are worse, so av is a great fit that also lets you switch into modest koko and a few other special attackers happily.

From what i remember of NS in the past, the ultra-defensive mons that wall "everything" end up being pretty bad when they dont have things like seismic toss, leech seed etc to actually threaten things, you generally want to have at least some offensive power in order to not just lose all momentum

 

[Gryphon827]

There are a lot of mons that could become much more viable in this metagame. (that's kinda the point, I didn't really need to point that out,) but anyways. here are some mons that could be interesting.
A lot of these are going to end up being either fast sweepers or defensive stallers.
110/35/45/49/150 hasty Doublade has potential to be an insanely powerful fast physical sweeper, with the potential to outspeed a lot of things along with his great ability.
In the same fashion, 105/50/55/95/125 hasty Mawile-M could also be used as a fast physical sweeper, with its amazing ability and much-improved speed.
53/139/53/139/79 calm Buzzwole could be an incredible staller with a very powerful 107/139/139 bulk and a good defensive movepool.
Back to sweepers, 65/65/110/60/130 naive Sylveon was in need of a higher speed stat, with a good offensive movepool and typing.
170/115/92/95/120 jolly Garchomp-M can finally be viable, due to it keeping its bulk, gaining the speed that it needed and only losing special attack, which it never used anyways.
95/115/85/130/75 bold Bulu is a very nice stall, with the ability to regenerate a quarter of its health every turn with seeds, lefties and grassy terrain, and better protection against Fire, Ice and Poison type moves (since they tend to be special.)
130/111/100/85/130 jolly Charizard-M-X was somewhat unviable in OU before, but with a speed buff such as this, and his ability multiplying his contact attacks' power by 1.3, he has potential to be very good. (Still weak to ground tho.)

EDIT: Coming back to this post after NS became LCotM, I realize that not many of these are viable due to the existence of Stakataka.

 

[Whitephoenixace]

There are a lot of mons that could become much more viable in this metagame. (that's
In the same fashion, (210)/50/55/95/125 Mawile-M could also be used as a fast physical sweeper.

u know huge power doesn't double the base stat right ? it doubles the raw stat. tbh mawile atk with adamant nature after huge power is actually sitting somewhere well over base 210, maybe over base 300

 

[Gryphon827]

u know huge power doesn't double the base stat right ? it doubles the raw stat. tbh mawile atk with adamant nature after huge power is actually sitting somewhere well over base 210, maybe over base 300

you have a point, I'll edit the post.

 

[pazza]

Cant wait to play this!
Heres a set I thought of

Pikachu @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Knock Off
- Volt Tackle
- Double-Edge
Base 90 at level 100 with 31 IVs, 252+ EVs at +2: 612.

This mon is really scary in TR. Pare it up with a TR mon like Stakaka

Stakataka @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rock Blast
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Trick Room
(how the shit is its def still higher then its attack)
This mon is also really strong and can set up TR for its self

(this meta gonna make me learn all my natures tbh)

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Congratulations for being LCotM.

Here's an incomplete Speed tier of common mons to help newer ppl.

230 - Hasty Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Shuckle
211 - Hasty Stakataka
200 - Hasty Steelix
180 - Hasty Aggron
170 - Jolly Mega Garchomp
160 - Timid/Jolly Mega Diancie
150 - Hasty Mega Tyranitar
145 - Timid Landorus T
140 - Hasty Mega Scizor
139 - Hasty Buzzwole
136 - Timid Mega Lopunny
135 - Naive Mega Gardevoir
131 - Hasty Kartana
130 - Jolly Zard X, Naive Mega Gyarados, Naive hoopa C
125 - Hasty Mega mawile
120 - Timid mega camerupt, Jolly mega garchomp

 

[xavgb]

I would like to remind people that sd psychium z photon geyser necrozma doesn't work, as it will just give you a special shattered psyche.

Also nihilego is looking pretty cool in general, it's got a good stat build for this kind of meta, being able to run physical sets with head smash and gunk shot, bulky support with t-spikes/rocks and relaxed OTR, which is really bulky and probably quite good at abusing beast boost.

 

[Ginger Princess]

Grats on getting leader's choiced for OMotM. Hey I'm not sure if this is a bug or not, but when I try to use this (and all of my) set/s:
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Lonely Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone
- Low Kick
- Bonemerang

Switching the 80 attack with the 110 defense, I notice I will get the defense stat, with the correct amount of evs put in, but it will not have the 10% buff, as it apparently should "The 10% buff is applied to the changed stats as well!!!". Am I doing something wrong, or is Showdown to blame? Please help.

 

[Ivy]

Grats on getting leader's choiced for OMotM. Hey I'm not sure if this is a bug or not, but when I try to use this (and all of my) set/s:
Switching the 80 attack with the 110 defense, I notice I will get the defense stat, with the correct amount of evs put in, but it will not have the 10% buff, as it apparently should "The 10% buff is applied to the changed stats as well!!!". Am I doing something wrong, or is Showdown to blame? Please help.

As it stands, the nature swap mechanic actually switches the FINAL stats at runtime. So you need to invest fully in Defense yet have the Lonely nature. Now, quite frankly I have no idea whether or not the 10% boost is actually applied, because it seems like by stealing the negatively nature-affected stat, that would cancel out the 10% buff.
Source code for reference:

'use strict';

exports.BattleScripts = {
    natureModify: function (stats, nature) {
        nature = this.getNature(nature);
        if (nature.plus) {
            let stat = stats[nature.minus];
            stats[nature.minus] = stats[nature.plus];
            stats[nature.plus] = Math.floor(stat * 1.1);
        }
        return stats;
    },
};

 

[dhelmise]

Grats on getting leader's choiced for OMotM. Hey I'm not sure if this is a bug or not, but when I try to use this (and all of my) set/s:
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Lonely Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone
- Low Kick
- Bonemerang

Switching the 80 attack with the 110 defense, I notice I will get the defense stat, with the correct amount of evs put in, but it will not have the 10% buff, as it apparently should "The 10% buff is applied to the changed stats as well!!!". Am I doing something wrong, or is Showdown to blame? Please help.

You need to put the EVs in the stat bring swapped. For example, Lonely Alolan Marowak would need 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def with a lonely nature, and the EVs would switch with the stat in battle.

As it stands, the nature swap mechanic actually switches the FINAL stats at runtime. So you need to invest fully in Defense yet have the Lonely nature. Now, quite frankly I have no idea whether or not the 10% boost is actually applied, because it seems like by stealing the negatively nature-affected stat, that would cancel out the 10% buff.
Source code for reference:
View attachment 103803

On mobile so can’t edit this into my last post so sorry, but it does apply the 1.1 boost.

E: I did it on mobile wow

 

[Ginger Princess]

Thank yall for the help Kris and that ivy guy

 

[delibird=santa]

http://pokepast.es/6b4d2ea8b949488d

Here's a pretty cool rain team I made. Pelipper unfortunately doesn't really benefit from Nature Swap, but with a calm nature it gets better mixed defenses. It's also complete Koko bait, so I decided to add the greatest Koko counter mankind has ever seen: SpD Excadrill. With an insane 405 SpD, it walls any coverage Koko could throw at it and can tank most super-effective hits.
Mantine and Ludicolo complement eachother incredibly well: one can punch walls for the other to clean up. Ice Punch is an option on Ludicolo if you don't want to lose to Salamence. Mega Scizor shreds Stakataka, Kartana and Aggron with an unexpected Vacuum Wave, and HP Water turns into a powerful Surf thanks to technician. Tangrowth provides a little extra defensive utility, and it's nice to have a pivot to fall back on if Mantine/Ludicolo is forced out.

 

[Ultramen1]

D̶e̶o̶x̶y̶s̶ (Shuckle) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Naive Nature
- Power Trick
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Bug Bite

Only needs one turn of setup, and becomes a scary sweeper afterwards. Couple it with a SR setter and Tapu Lele to protect against sash and priority, and begin plowing anything that dares to get in your way.

 

[Gweebis]

Youre right, this thread needs a revival. Let me add some more threats that I find interesting:

Sceptile @ Electric Seed
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Brave Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Drain Punch
- Acrobatics

So this mon is abusing Grassy Terrain and unburden to sweep- grassy terrain boosted leaf blade coming off 120+ atk is powerful, and at +2 its hitting like a truck- not to mention reaching 610 speed. The +1 defense plus drain punch grants it both survivability and coverage to break through opponents also, while acrobatics hits grass types that resist the strongest attack- but Thunder Punch could be used to ohko celesteela paired with Electric seed, along with Earthquake since Grassy Terrain wont be reducing its power.

Wouldn't the item be Grassy Seed, or did you mean to use Electric Terrain + Elec Seed? I'm just a little confused as this seems like a really fun mon to use, but I'm not 100% sure which setup you're going for.

 

[Gweebis]

This meta is a great way to get some mons to see more usage and a fun experience with using mons in new ways. Two of my favorite sets are these:

Florges-Blue (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Giga Drain/Synthesis
- Wish/Heal Bell/Defog

Having base 154 speed is something that should not be ignored, and it allows for Florges to dish out hits from its 112 base special attack with ease. Life Orb helps to boosts its offenses even more and allows for the use of support moves (depending on what you need) that wouldn't be optimal to have if you ran specs instead. You can choose to run Synthesis over Giga Drain for recovery as Giga Drain's more for an expected Steelix/Aggron switch (which, if you don't predict, Florges is dead anyways).

and yes it's very important that you use florges-blue and not any of the other colors of florges

Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off
- Psychic
- Grass Knot

This thing is very bulky - 180 spdef once mega'd gets even stronger with Calm Mind and Slack Off. The loss of special attack becomes less of an issue if you can get a calm mind up, although, if you get poisoned, Slowbro won't last for too long since Regenerator's gone. The last move can be played around with a bit more; I just went for Grass Knot as Steelix, Aggron, and Diancie are all heavy threats that would not like a grass knot sent their way, although Flamethrower and Ice Beam can be used for coverage if you like.

 

[theJman12]

This metagame seems pretty fun, can't wait to play!
This is a set I thought of

Wishiwashi-School @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Scald
- U-turn

45/30/130/140/135/140

Seems like wishiwashi could be a pretty huge threat (at least while it's above 25%) reaching 416 speed and it's great sp.attack stat to go along with that. Choice specs could work for just a fast heavy hitting hydro pump or choice scarf for a revenge killer.

 

[Ivy]

Just FYI, it is NOT the base stat that gets swapped, but rather the calculated, invested stat without any nature modifiers. For example:

This metagame seems pretty fun, can't wait to play!
This is a set I thought of
Wishiwashi-School @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Scald
- U-turn
45/30/130/140/135/140
Seems like wishiwashi could be a pretty huge threat (at least while it's above 25%) reaching 416 speed and it's great sp.attack stat to go along with that. Choice specs could work for just a fast heavy hitting hydro pump or choice scarf for a revenge killer.

This should run its Timid nature as one would expect, but 252 EVs should be put in ATTACK. The fully invested Attack stat will then be swapped with Speed, which will then receive the +10% nature bonus.

This really ought to be clarified in the OP, or otherwise updated in the source code to actually use the base stats as one would intuitively anticipate. Apparently the latter is impossible though.

 

[Zeramarma_0]

This meta looks so cool! cant wait to try!

I have a set here

Magearna @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpA
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Aura Sphere
- Energy Ball

With this set, mag will get a 30 base speed boost to the average 95. this speed will get raised even more by the scarf to a high base 120 speed now it can unleash its special attack capabilities to the max!

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Just FYI, it is NOT the base stat that gets swapped, but rather the calculated, invested stat without any nature modifiers. For example:



This should run its Timid nature as one would expect, but 252 EVs should be put in ATTACK. The fully invested Attack stat will then be swapped with Speed, which will then receive the +10% nature bonus.

This really ought to be clarified in the OP, or otherwise updated in the source code to actually use the base stats as one would intuitively anticipate. Apparently the latter is impossible though.

Umm that doesn't make sense. Last gen, I believe we always swap base stats and THEN calculate the EVs invested in it. Why can't we do the same now?

 

[Gryphon827]

I think we should ban Stakataka. Some people run hasty, but lonely trick room is the main set that staka runs. For example, here's mine:

Stakataka @ Expert Belt
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 8 Atk / 252 Def / 248 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Gyro Ball
- Trick Room

(While 252 def and lonely looks like it makes no sense, the calculated stat before the nature is applied is what ends up swapped. It ends up giving him 252+ attack on the base 211 stat.)

By giving him as little speed as possible, it maximizes both the effectiveness of trick room and the damage of Gyro Ball. I gave him an expert belt because the majority of pokémon are weak to either rock, ground or steel.

Enough of the discussion of my set, onto why staka is absolutely broken and needs a ban. Lonely, his most used nature, swaps around attack and defense, boosting his attack stat. This means that his defense stat is still high at 131, while his attack stat is brought up to an insane 211. This means that he is still able to keep some defense, with 61/131/101 bulk, and yet has insanely high attack and can outspeed anything if it can set up trick room, which isn't hard due to its bulk. In summary, Stakataka is a sweeper who can outspeed anything with the use of trick room, and is yet extremely bulky, making it very overpowered. The biggest problem is that there aren't any viable ground or fighting types in the meta. meaning it's pretty safe to run. TL;DR, Stakataka should definitely be suspect tested, if not quickbanned.

 

[Zeramarma_0]

wow, that's really broken......

 

[Gryphon827]

Umm that doesn't make sense. Last gen, I believe we always swap base stats and THEN calculate the EVs invested in it. Why can't we do the same now?

The way that it was coded in this gen, the stats get swapped after the EVs are calculated, but before the 10% boost from the nature. I agree that it doesn't make much sense, but I'm not a coder, so it might not be possible to code it in a way where the base stats get swapped instead of the calculated stats.