Nature Swap [Talonflame unbanned!]

Dr. Phd. BJ

LuckE n BAD
This calc is Chansey in Nature Swap
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 144-171 (22.4 - 26.6%) -- 22.5% chance to 4HKO
This is Chansey in BH with fur coat.
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Fur Coat Chansey: 133-157 (20.7 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO.
Let that sink in...
 
I'm voting pro ban.
Not that Chansey is unbeatable (since every second team has one you couldn't get reqs without beating the majority of them) or suddenly able to touch mons with status-immunity/taunt (except with skill swap) and recovery (like in ou) but its just able to
a) Work on literally ANY team and easily improves any team it is splashed on (the comparison with Primal Groudon wasn't that much of a stretch except it also has recovery and shrugs off any status) and
b) Halt pretty much every bit of momentum the opponent has grabbed. Since even players with designated counters need to switch into them first, Chansey is awfully disruptive and at the same time of course not just low-risk but pretty much no-risk to use. Unless your field is stacked to the brim with entry hazards, you can always bring in Chansey since not even a Knock Off truly halts it. So far only Hazard-Stacking coupled with awfully risky double-switches to force it out directly after switching in until it can actually be beaten has shown to be a somewhat surefire counter. Of course, you need to actually force it out first, something not even banded naughty Shuckle can archive (its attack is over 900) and
c) Wins games ridiculously easy. There is no such thing as a team that is truly safe from Chansey unless its a full stall team that utilizes Chansey as well and
d) Not only is Chansey basically the best support in this meta as it improves any mon that it is paired with (by basically making it immune to any offensive attack) but also the scariest mon once it GETS support: Unaware-Users for Recovery+Status-Immunity+Setup-Sweepers like Gliscor or Taunt-TFlame, Mega-Sab for any hopes of taunting and one of the insane hazard-controllers this meta offers.

 

Rosa

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All things considered, if we had more time than just one measly month, we could probably work out and discover sets that break chansey. Balanced Hackmons, for example, is a meta that has become built over using specific sets to counteract common sets that people use; I feel we could do the same with Nature Swap, but like I said, doing those things takes time, which is not something we have ample of when it comes to the ladder, and because of this, I'm voting to ban Chansey.

I initially thought the owners of the meta were out of their minds to not quickban this thing that doesn't mean that they aren't still insane ;) but now that we can actually play NS, it's not as bad as I thought it would be, still needs to be booted for the time being, though, since omotm's need creativity.
 

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15 - Centi In Ladder <-

About Chansey, I it feel it have too much power, it's impossible to topple it. You must attack with sth super effective for low it a maximum of 50%. Very good pokemon in actual metagame such as Kyurem, Sylveon, Metagross, can't even tickle it.
For touch it you nees a fighting type move and having +400 Atk/Spa.
If you don't think so, I'll pass you some damages that strongests pokes in the meta can do against it (of course, with the boosts)

252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 127-150 (18 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 183-216 (25.9 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 372-438 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 181-214 (25.7 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 162-192 (23 - 27.2%) -- 60.3% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 178-210 (25.2 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Regigigas Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 214-254 (30.3 - 36%) -- 48.2% chance to 3HKO

So, my vote is: BAN Chansey
#SalaEventos
 
I ban chansey. Reasons for my son banear This pokemon the Following ; Chansey is ou because their defense is terrible , which is the case of this tier ? we have a wall that resists blows up x2 with dd and other things and if you can stall out you keep what's left of your opponent , counter ? khock off I would not let it pass and exchange , I've seen kuchos khock off and when will come #SalaEventos http://imgur.com/dNQ0jaA
 
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I wanted to try playing today, but I see Chansey in every single team.
Maybe tomorrow.

Here's a funny Regirock set anyway:


Regirock @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Lonely Nature
- Drain Punch
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Explosion

That's 548 Atk with an immunity to Intimidate. Balloon is an option because it's really weak to Earthquake. AV set survives Specs Keldeo Scald though.
 

drampa's grandpa

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Thought I'd dump a couple sets.

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 SpD
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power Ground / Water
- Volt Switch

This is my number one partner and check for Cloyster. He can take out the Steel types that Cloyster doesn't like, and outspeeds Cloyster even at +2, hitting 541 speed v Cloyster's 478. Camerupt loves switching in on Magnezone, so the Hidden Power of your choice lets you smack it when you catch a predicted switch in. HP water guarantees the 2hko and has a chance to OHKO while ground is better coverage on steel types in general and sometimes 2hkos, always after Stealth Rock.


Tyrantrum @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Head Smash
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang

Step 1: Get in somehow without dying, maybe on a fire move.
Step 2: Click Head Smash.
Step 3: Miss.
Step 4: Repeat.

This thing has always had power and now it has speed as well. Dragon Dance sets might also be fun, or Scarf, or Stone Plate lures, or whatever. Consider it.


I thought i had more okay bai have fun kids stay in drugs dont do school
 
So far it's looking like the end for Chansey. I don't disagree with it, and before anyone assumes my post is relevant, I'm not yet in the top 20, Although I was close before the ladder shifted like a toddler at the opera- However, for those of us still dealing with it, knock off is one of the best alternatives for beating it, if not the only one besides taunt. I've seen Blissey in action and I've noticed it's not as big of a problem, but we still need to prepare for it post-chansey. So coming up with offensive threats now will help us all later. Just a thought going through my mind.
 
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I tried an Impish Blissey and it easily survives physical attacks.

With 75 Def Blissey:
Comparison with Chansey:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 463-546 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 463-546 (71 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 387-458 (60.2 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

80 Atk Azu
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 301-355 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 301-355 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 252-297 (39.2 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It's close. Even with maxed HP, it still has less physical bulk than Chansey, but Blissey isn't that bothered by Knock Off. I guess it's fine.
 
A fun Breloom set

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Seismic Toss

60 / -70 / 80 / 60 / 60 / +130

Drop the attack and get a 130 base speed subseeder with Spore and Poison Heal. Sleep a slower threat, put up a sub, and between Leech Seed and Poison Heal potentially get your entire health back each turn. Seismic Toss because after the switch there are no offensive stats worth using.
 
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Got reqs. Chansey is way too good as a pivot, and even though it can get set up on a lot of the time just throwing down a twave/toxic and spamming seismic toss til it dies is enough for something to come in and kill off the setupmon anyway. Team had a fun offensive core to go with the chansey though:

EDIT: Ban.

Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Swords Dance
- Frustration
- Earthquake
- Quick Attack


Azumarill @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Knock Off
- Play Rough
- Superpower


Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower
 
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Yes, it is really hard to kill but it only takes one stallbreaker to stop it.
The problem about Chansey isn't you stopping it (like I said anything with recovery and any form of status protection can easily beat it) but it stopping you (in Soviet Russia, Chansey breaks you). Basically no matter how many stallbreakers you have anything in your team that is not a stallbreaker is basically useless as long as Chansey is alive. As it is often slapped on offensive Teams too, they can easily bring in a fast wallbreaker (there is really no lack of those) by switching out Chansey against the predicted Taunt, completely switching any momentum. Also unless you double into your stallbreaker multiple times while rocks and preferably spikes are out, you can't whittle down Chansey at all. Basically as long as it is alive the circle will always be:
- One player has a powerful mon and is in a clear advantage
- Chansey switches into a ridiculously powerful Attack without taking significant damage
- Chansey heals up while the stallbreaker comes in
- Chansey switches out to something ridiculously powerful itself while the stallbreaker is busy taunting, recovering or boosting
- Now the Chansey-User has the advantage
- Momentum completely shifted
 
This is going to look like a gigantic meme, but hear me out. This is what I have used to 100% shutdown opposing chanseys
Behold the mighty Trapinch

Trapinch @ Leftovers
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Mimic / EQ / Filler

So basically, you switch in, trap chansey and then poison it to death. With left overs, the 4HKO from seismic toss means you can just rest cycle, and heal Bell gets PP stalled.

I know I'm suggesting freaking Trapinch, but Chaney is on nearly every team, so here is your hard counter The Official Glyx
 

Snorlax @ Salac Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Crunch / Ice Punch
- Belly Drum

1276 Atk and 525 Speed after Belly Drum. Scary. Ice Punch is actually a better move for this because Ghosts are almost non-existent here. Ice Punch OHKOs nature-swapped Defensive Landorus-T, Salamence and Bold Dragonite (if Multiscale is broken). The only problems are strong priority because you're down to 50% HP before you even start hitting, and Sturdy mons that may cripple or kill it.
 
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dat trapinch :X


Figured I may as well vote too.. Im voting Ban on Chansey because it is just a total momentum killer and can be played into most teams. It takes no effort to switch chansey into any offensive pokemon without a boosting move or taunt and stop their momentum, and then proceed to cripple them. That being said, people should be using a lot more taunt on the ladder if they want to deal with it (as well as Blissey later on). There's a good range of pokemon that can hit really hard and also afford to dedicate one or two moveslots for beating Chansey. That being said Im still voting ban, because its a pivot that is unrivalled and takes a huge chunk of prediction out of the game.


Anyways, heres some viable sets that beat Chansey without suffering much at all


Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Taunt
- Fire Punch
- Pain Split



Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Roost
- Knock Off



Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Calm Mind
- Dark Pulse



Conkeldurr @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch



Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Dragon Claw
- Leaf Blade
 
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Did some looking around and didnt see many good hazard control mons, and I've been playing using physically defensive starmie as a spinner and its fantastic



Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Recover
- Psyshock / toxic

Swapping its defense and speed makes this Starmie more bulky than Slowbro! Imagine a Slowbro who can spin and is semi immune to status conditions like toxic. I'm torn on the last move, I used both variants and whever I have one, I wished I had the other. Pretty sure the EVs arent perfect yet, but still an amazing reliable spinner
 
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Did some looking around and didnt see many good hazard control mons, and I've been playing using physically defensive starmie as a spinner and its fantastic



Starmie @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Recover
- Psyshock / toxic

Swapping its defense and speed makes this Starmie more bulky than Slowbro! Imagine a Slowbro who can spin and is semi immune to status conditions like toxic. I'm torn on the last move, I used both variants and whever I have one, I wished I had the other. Pretty sure the EVs arent perfect yet, but still an amazing reliable spinner
Starmie is not bulkier than Slowbro with this swap. It has less Defense and less HP.

But Actually Kind Of Bulky Spinner Starmie is cool, definitely.
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Ok I get Chansey is the talk of the meta, but everyone barring a couple people pretty much agrees that it has to go, and the vote is pretty obvious. So I'd like to move the conversation to Talonflame.
Looking at its stats with a Brave nature: 78/126/71/74/69/81
So I tried to ask the original meta creator and chopin what was up with the ban in the first place, and didn't really get satisfactory answers:
%Chopin Alkaninoff:Tflame is more like, unhealthy existence since we don't really want the meta to have more priority spam
pip7: u could probably just do some calcs yourself to see how strong talonflame is

Coming from an AAA player where Gale Wings Braviary is everywhere, I know how this thing works, its pretty much a worse version of it in my mind. Its a bit stronger, but has a x4 rock weakness, and takes a lot more recoil damage due to its low HP. On the other hand, it gets Flare Blitz, but it is also now slow. 126atk is strong yeah, but its nothing ridiculous, especially for this meta.

So my first thought is that Talonflame should just be unbanned because it doesn't really have a reason to be banned.
My next thought is it should be unbanned because it would actually be good for the meta. Right now, the meta has so many crazy fast and strong attackers, which are pretty much impossible to offensively check. Talonflame can come in and help check these mons.
In response to Chopin, this isn't really opening up the meta to espeed spam like every other OMOTM is, its just Tflame.

Edit: So pip7 expanded on why tflame is banned, pasting reasoning to address in forum:
pip7:this is talonflame revenge killing any pokemon with less than 100/100 defenses with a priority move with one of the best offensive typing attacks in the meta 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 316-373 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
pip7:secondly: we all know talonflame is an amazing stallbreaker and beats walls with a wisp taunt roost set

So, to address the first point: And? The meta is literally based around some ridiculous offense mons OHKOing everything. Tflame has priority, yeah, but its +1. Shit like ice shard cloyster will still outspeed after a ssmash. Additionally, with its typing and low hp, its getting worn down super quickly from both rocks and recoil, the same problems tflame always has. More importantly, its just doing its job as a revenge killer, now just to a bigger extent. Offensive mons are always subject to being revenge killed, usually by something faster or with priority. It's actually at about the same power as Bisharp tbh, which does not have the same rock weakness.

For the second point, Talonflame is no longer that good of a stallbreaker as it completely loses its niche of being super fast. 81 base speed with a negative nature, even with 252 EVs, puts it at 234 which makes it slower than base 100s. It can no longer just spread burns at will, and its pretty much completely outclassed by any other stall breaker. There would be literally no reason to use it as a stallbreaker

tl;dr unban tflame its a strong revenge killer, but by no means broken. it would help check the ridiculously fast offense, and it loses its ability to stallbreak, thus improving the meta.
 

CC) Ranger Arthur

I really like this OM, but I don't think Chansey is broken. Yes, it has a lot of bulk, but it still is a setup bait and there is a lot of checks/counter that can stop it: Diggersby, Azumarill, SubPunch Gengar... So not ban.

That said, I still need to find a good check for Diggers lol.
 
Starmie is not bulkier than Slowbro with this swap. It has less Defense and less HP.

But Actually Kind Of Bulky Spinner Starmie is cool, definitely.
Starmie with this swap has 115 def while Slowbro has base 110

But you're right, Slowbro is bulkier because of the HP stat
 
Ok I get Chansey is the talk of the meta, but everyone barring a couple people pretty much agrees that it has to go, and the vote is pretty obvious. So I'd like to move the conversation to Talonflame.
Looking at its stats with a Brave nature: 78/126/71/74/69/81
So I tried to ask the original meta creator and chopin what was up with the ban in the first place, and didn't really get satisfactory answers:
%Chopin Alkaninoff:Tflame is more like, unhealthy existence since we don't really want the meta to have more priority spam
pip7: u could probably just do some calcs yourself to see how strong talonflame is

Coming from an AAA player where Gale Wings Braviary is everywhere, I know how this thing works, its pretty much a worse version of it in my mind. Its a bit stronger, but has a x4 rock weakness, and takes a lot more recoil damage due to its low HP. On the other hand, it gets Flare Blitz, but it is also now slow. 126atk is strong yeah, but its nothing ridiculous, especially for this meta.

So my first thought is that Talonflame should just be unbanned because it doesn't really have a reason to be banned.
My next thought is it should be unbanned because it would actually be good for the meta. Right now, the meta has so many crazy fast and strong attackers, which are pretty much impossible to offensively check. Talonflame can come in and help check these mons.
In response to Chopin, this isn't really opening up the meta to espeed spam like every other OMOTM is, its just Tflame.

Edit: So pip7 expanded on why tflame is banned, pasting reasoning to address in forum:
pip7:this is talonflame revenge killing any pokemon with less than 100/100 defenses with a priority move with one of the best offensive typing attacks in the meta 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 316-373 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
pip7:secondly: we all know talonflame is an amazing stallbreaker and beats walls with a wisp taunt roost set

So, to address the first point: And? The meta is literally based around some ridiculous offense mons OHKOing everything. Tflame has priority, yeah, but its +1. Shit like ice shard cloyster will still outspeed after a ssmash. Additionally, with its typing and low hp, its getting worn down super quickly from both rocks and recoil, the same problems tflame always has. More importantly, its just doing its job as a revenge killer, now just to a bigger extent. Offensive mons are always subject to being revenge killed, usually by something faster or with priority. It's actually at about the same power as Bisharp tbh, which does not have the same rock weakness.

For the second point, Talonflame is no longer that good of a stallbreaker as it completely loses its niche of being super fast. 81 base speed with a negative nature, even with 252 EVs, puts it at 234 which makes it slower than base 100s. It can no longer just spread burns at will, and its pretty much completely outclassed by any other stall breaker. There would be literally no reason to use it as a stallbreaker

tl;dr unban tflame its a strong revenge killer, but by no means broken. it would help check the ridiculously fast offense, and it loses its ability to stallbreak, thus improving the meta.
Gonna address a couple points here.

By no means does it lose its ability to stallbreak, as you actually get a straight upgrade running a standard careful nature. The stallbreaker set doesn't need to sacrifice the speed to get attack.

A comparison to bisharp is disingenuous:
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 165-196 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 316-373 (78.2 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Before you say anything about the natures and items, bisharp with any attack increasing nature in this meta is actively bad, and choice locked sucker punch is bad. Bisharp is neither anywhere close to the same level of power, nor is it something you can spam, as sucker punch is 40 bp weaker AND not reliable.

Ridiculously fast offense already has revenge killers and checks, 80 attack azumarill and 77 attack diggersby with huge power, megascizor or banded scizor with bpunch, scarfmons are still good in this meta (despite a strong weakness to chansey who should be banned anyway) and many unawaremons get a boost in defenses.

Adding a 126 attack pokemon with access to both swords dance and a 120bp stab priority move with 0 immunities, a coverage move that bops any 4x resists, the ability to change it up and stallbreak, and absolutely absurd calcs vs neutral targets with no boosts does not make for a healthier metagame. I believe unbanning talonflame would be a mistake, and will adamantly fight against it if it comes to full discussion.
 

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