Okay, so I get that I have been somewhat noncommittal in my posting; however, there has always been intention in my posts, even if it hasn't been clear. I'll try and explain exactly what I was pursuing in my lines of questioning.
Speaking of
Eo Ut Mortus , I get this feeling of fluff when reading to your posts, an example is when talking about neighbourless people for the good first chunk of a post that amounts to "Lets not talk about it, but think about it, but maybe we should talk about it".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the post you were referring to:
Eo Ut Mortus said:
Okay, I know we're all tired of discussing game mechanics, but I do think there is some significance to some people starting neighborhoodless. For the sake of the immediate discussion, I'll refrain from remarking on this point currently since everything I've thought of so far is merely speculation; however, I do think it might behoove us to consider whether it is more likely scum would start out in a neighborhood or not.
I was not trying to discourage anyone from discussing this topic--I was not saying "Let's not talk about this." What I meant was that I had not yet invested enough thought into this issue to develop a solid hypothesis regarding the mafia/village set-up, so I couldn't comment on it at that point. Nonetheless, I thought it was important enough a topic to warrant mention because if we answered the question ("Would scum more likely start out in a neighborhood or not?"), we might be able to potentially identify scum or clear certain people.
What I mean by this is a matter of probability. There were 10 players alive on day 2, and the total number of players suggested the existence of 2-3 mafia. If we assumed that at least one mafia member started out in the pool of neighborhoodless people, then it would be to our advantage to lynch someone who didn't start out in a neighborhood (in a randlynch situation, anyway). It would be a 1/3 chance of hitting scum versus 2/7 or 1/7. If we assumed the opposite, then all three non-neighborhood villagers would be cleaned.
Of course, the problem lied in finding a solid basis upon which to make either of those assumptions, which is why I asked that question. From the perspective of the game designer, I thought that it might be more likely for mafia to exist within the neighborhoodless in order to make them work a bit more to mole neighborhoods. But as I said then, this was pure speculation; I didn't have anything to support this hunch at the moment, and since it was evident that another thread of discussion had already begun, I decided to just leave it at a mention and move on.
Lightwolf said:
More recently there was a lot of space just used to discuss whether MC should or should have, not exactly sure if he did it yet, left the neighbourhood he was invited into, then some points about whether one can be in multiple neighbourhoods(which really should have been a private question to jalmont considering jalmont clearly stated he won't confirm neighbourhood details in public). Now Eo is contributing and some of his dicsussion about MC's decisions can easily be attributed to him drilling MC to see his explanation about leaving the hood contradicts anything. I merely think that previously MC answered my questions about his hoodlessness when he first jumped on phoenix adequately and his recent stuff is way below that level. To put it simpler, I feel a good chunk of Eo's posts are fluff things directed at MC, and sorta pushing discussion back towards pointless stuff about neighbour rules. But he does contribute to current discussions, be it about phoenix or Gale, unlike previous fluffers, and I can see his potential logic behind like half of it. What I'd like is if you took solider stances, if you want to drill MC like that, then drill him, currently it feels like an afterthought that takes up a good chunk of your posts. I feel like this wastes time and I want to see solid stuff instead. I can't help being vague here because from Eo's perspective he might be seriously going after MC, but to me it feels like he isn't.
I can see why my questioning has come off as directionless: I have asked several questions and received responses, but I have neglected to post some sort of conclusion or assessment afterwards, before the topic shifts completely. I have made up my mind, but it hasn't been expressed, so I will rectify this now.
On day 2, the majority of us learned about the existence of the neighborhoodless for the first time. This reveal defied my initial expectations of the game set-up, and yet, I had to believe these claims because it would've been a pointless and dangerous thing for anyone to false claim. Yet, I was still suspicious for a couple of reasons; for one, it took a day and a half for neighborhoodlessness to come to light, and it was a reactive announcement rather than a proactive one. This is especially true with MC, who piggybacked off Steamroll's announcement to perform his own announcement. Given this additional caveat in addition to MC's level of participation compared to Steamroll's (I could more easily attribute Steamroll's failure to publicize his status to inactivity), my suspicions were aroused, which prompted my first line of questioning.
Although I failed to make this clear, in part because discussion soon turned to Gale and whatnot, I was not completely satisfied by MC's responses when Day 2 ended, particularly this:
More Cowbell said:
Why claim after Steamroll? I don't know, really. You said my posts are not logically consistent, and I have to admit this is kinda true. I don't really have a gameplan going into the game, and usually just play it by ear. Anyone who has ever played mafia with me knows I'm not the strategic mastermind behind the faction I'm aligned with. So, when Steamroll claimed he couldn't do much because of not being in a neighborhood, I decided to call him out and just drop that I have no alignment either. It may not have been the smartest thing to wait, or to only claim after Steamroll, but if anything, it has prompted more discussion and that's what we need. I'm not a good mafia player, so the least I can do is cause some ruckus to get people to talk, and hopefully that leads to something new.
Basically, MC was playing dumb and using that to justify the inconsistency between his actions. I was not willing to accept this explanation at face value, but I didn't feel like I had enough of a case built at that point to do anything other than express my doubt. So when my suspicions were aroused today, by MC's post, I immediately followed up with more questions:
Eo Ut Mortus said:
Still, I'm wondering what the point of you leaving the neighborhood was. First of all, let me clarify: you said you joined UTO/Cancerous at the beginning, yet don't mention Cancerous henceforth. The events of day 1 suggest that Cancerous was in MeowMix's/TIO's neighborhood (neither of whom you mentioned). So did you make a mistake, or is he actually your neighbor? I inquire because if he is your neighbor, your interactions with him surely would've factored into your decision, yet they are notably absent from your post. Also, it might be a factor in something else, which I'll mention at the end of this post.
Anyway, you claim the discussion was unproductive, and I'll buy that for now; however, what exactly is to be gained by leaving? I'm not seeing any benefit. Are you just making a statement? Did you think being in that neighborhood was dangerous in some way? Yeah, maybe it seems there is little value in being in that neighborhood; however, that always has the potential to change, especially if you guys do still have a neighborizer (and did you even confirm this with your neighbor(s)?). A neighborhood is an option, and I don't see any downsides in having more options. There might be, but nothing has led me to believe it, so I'll have to ask you for your own reasoning. How is being neighborhoodless more beneficial than being part of the neighborhood you left/are leaving?
Regarding acidphoenix, I'm not sure I'm fully convinced by your line of reasoning. Why would someone who is part of the mafia accuse his neighbors of being scum only to kill them (thereby cleaning them)? You saw the conversations, so do you have something to support your claim? There is one curiosity regarding him I'd like to address, though. acidphoenix: I'd like to know why you voted for Cancerous yesterday. If he is your neighbor, as according to MC's post, then it would make more sense, but regardless, I'd like to hear your reasoning, especially since you unvoted him later with no explanation.
I must admit, this has been mostly a misunderstanding regarding the way recruitment/neighborhoods work; however, I will offer my perspective before these rules were clarified. I was firmly under the impression that we were allowed to be members of multiple neighborhoods; I found no rule or post that explicitly stated otherwise. Given that, I was convinced there was no reason for MC to leave acidphoenix's neighborhood, since although he had admitted he was logically inconsistent, he hadn't admitted to being completely illogical. I found it suspicious, but again, I could not conceive of any reason why he would do this, so I asked him explicitly to justify his actions in his own words. I was genuinely curious and thought that further information would allow me to understand the situation more, not to mention the potential for a scumslip because again, I was not fully convinced by his day 2 reasoning.
After all of this, I have to say I actually do not suspect MC any longer. My mind was changed after the issue regarding recruiting was clarified. If people can't be part of multiple neighborhoods at once, then it makes perfect sense to have neighborhoodless people at the start of the game because it's not a guarantee (it's unlikely, even) that people will leave their neighborhoods, which would make recruitment pointless. And, of course, this justifies him leaving acidphoenix's neighborhood.
So, yes, this is my current position on MC. I don't think I have anything more to comment about regarding his post at this moment. I'm willing to answer further questions if needed, but that is my stance. I didn't mean to drag this whole issue out, though to be fair, there wasn't much discussion to sidetrack when I first posted today. I mean, I did also pose a question to acidphoenix, and I've been waiting on that, yet it has remained unanswered for all this time.
