Lower Tiers New GSC NU Discussion

[Earthworm]

The metagame is gradually converging more and more towards Restalk on most Pokemon in my opinion. It's the team building strategy that enables the most flexibility in terms of choosing what to send in against Pokemon that are simply firing off their STAB attacks / Toxic. It works best on Pokemon that are 3HKOed by the Pokemon they are used against but outspeed and 2-3HKO them in return, or Pokemon that are 4-5HKOed in the case of slower, more bulky Pokemon. Restalk Rapidash, Raichu, Feraligatr, Stantler, Hitmonlee, Primeape, Wigglytuff, etc are all great options and provide flexible offense and defense simultaneously.

Spikes + Dugtrio (Sub and/or Screech) is massively popular and is quite problematic for Restalk Raichu. It particularly punishes Feraligatr that aren't using Restalk.

Raichu remains the biggest threat, although the presence of Restalk Raichu on the enemy team and the convenience of fighting Raichu with one's own Raichu is forcing a lot of them into Restalking themselves, which limits its coverage and forces it to choose which threats it maintains the upper hand against.

With SToss Raichu being popular for its advantage against enemy Raichu, all of Dugtrio/Graveler/Cubone are taking advantage of the ease of forcing Raichu to Rest. Double Ground teams where Cubone or Graveler paves the way for Dugtrio seem to be effective, with LS support or without.

A lot of people seem to be going for predictable bulky teams with the top 3 + fillers, and optimising their teams to simply cover threats in the filler slots. This is working reasonably well but is quite susceptible to threats like Wigglytuff, Lickitung, Primeape, Hitmonlee, Cubone, Kingler, and Stantler. All of those deserve more usage than they're currently getting in my opinion.

However, overall I think there is a lot of variety in terms of what's being used on the ladder, which is nice.

 

[Bughouse]

Fun little lure for Graveler (and others, but mostly Graveler) to clear a path for Raichu or a normal type that I've experimented with is HP Grass Weezing.

Grass is 14 Atk / 14 Def / 3 HP
Water is 14 Atk / 13 Def / 7 HP

I don't think there's a particular reason to use Water imo, since Fires are not super common (and all are hit harder by Sludge Bomb anyway I think). I think the only mon you hit harder is Shuckle, but the damage output is still really low, obviously. Grass is the much more spammable move given how many waters there are. It hits Gatr and Poliwrath harder than Sludge Bomb, for example (though Thunder is strongest by a wide margin... but inaccurate). That said, if for whatever reason you did want to use Water, it'd have the same lure effect...

And it does this:
Weezing Hidden Power Grass vs. Graveler: 289-340 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 53.8% chance to OHKO, obviously guaranteed with spikes or basically any prior damage (though not really Sludge Bomb, since it does only lefties damage).

Weezing Hidden Power Grass vs. Sudowoodo: 120-142 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sudowoodo Earthquake vs. Weezing: 129-152 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
So since Weezing is faster... you KO first.

I ran it still with the standard Sludge Bomb, Thunder, and Explosion. Since HP Grass is beating the Rocks that could tank Explosion, really nothing wants to switch into this. It will pretty much at worst trade with something. And can clear a path for a win condition to boot.

 

[Earthworm]

Tournament and Stats

The first GSC NU tournament using the new tier list has come to a conclusion and I have posted all the replays that were saved from the tournament here.

For convenience, I am going to copy and paste the stats from the tour here:

GSC NU Tournament Usage Stats

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Raichu             |  145 |  76.32% |  46.21% |
| 2    | Feraligatr         |  140 |  73.68% |  52.14% |
| 3    | Weezing            |  102 |  53.68% |  45.10% |
| 4    | Pineco             |   91 |  47.89% |  49.45% |
| 5    | Xatu               |   68 |  35.79% |  64.71% |
| 6    | Dugtrio            |   66 |  34.74% |  53.03% |
| 7    | Sudowoodo          |   42 |  22.11% |  47.62% |
| 8    | Primeape           |   41 |  21.58% |  48.78% |
| 9    | Graveler           |   35 |  18.42% |  54.29% |
| 10   | Lickitung          |   27 |  14.21% |  51.85% |
| 11   | Fearow             |   26 |  13.68% |  61.54% |
| 12   | Gastly             |   23 |  12.11% |  43.48% |
| 13   | Wigglytuff         |   21 |  11.05% |  47.62% |
| 14   | Poliwrath          |   20 |  10.53% |  35.00% |
| 15   | Flareon            |   18 |   9.47% |  44.44% |
| 16   | Rapidash           |   17 |   8.95% |  52.94% |
| 17   | Parasect           |   16 |   8.42% |  37.50% |
| 18   | Tangela            |   15 |   7.89% |  60.00% |
| 19   | Arbok              |   14 |   7.37% |  57.14% |
| 20   | Magmar             |   13 |   6.84% |  30.77% |
| 21   | Delibird           |   12 |   6.32% |  58.33% |
| 22   | Ninetales          |   11 |   5.79% |  54.55% |
| 23   | Golduck            |   10 |   5.26% |  40.00% |
| 23   | Hitmontop          |   10 |   5.26% |  40.00% |
| 23   | Kingler            |   10 |   5.26% |  30.00% |
| 26   | Persian            |    8 |   4.21% |  75.00% |
| 27   | Stantler           |    7 |   3.68% |  85.71% |
| 27   | Venomoth           |    7 |   3.68% |  57.14% |
| 27   | Bayleef            |    7 |   3.68% |  14.29% |
| 27   | Sunflora           |    7 |   3.68% |   0.00% |
| 31   | Dragonair          |    6 |   3.16% |  83.33% |
| 31   | Pidgeot            |    6 |   3.16% |  66.67% |
| 31   | Octillery          |    6 |   3.16% |  33.33% |
| 31   | Exeggcute          |    6 |   3.16% |  33.33% |
| 31   | Hitmonchan         |    6 |   3.16% |  33.33% |
| 36   | Cubone             |    5 |   2.63% |  40.00% |
| 36   | Porygon            |    5 |   2.63% |  20.00% |
| 36   | Hitmonlee          |    5 |   2.63% |  20.00% |
| 39   | Ivysaur            |    4 |   2.11% |  50.00% |
| 40   | Murkrow            |    3 |   1.58% |  33.33% |
| 40   | Aipom              |    3 |   1.58% |  33.33% |
| 40   | Ariados            |    3 |   1.58% |  33.33% |
| 40   | Machoke            |    3 |   1.58% |  33.33% |
| 40   | Noctowl            |    3 |   1.58% |  33.33% |
| 45   | Gloom              |    2 |   1.05% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Raticate           |    2 |   1.05% |  50.00% |
| 45   | Shuckle            |    2 |   1.05% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Ledian             |    1 |   0.53% | 100.00% |
| 48   | Azumarill          |    1 |   0.53% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Dunsparce          |    1 |   0.53% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Mantine            |    1 |   0.53% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Charmeleon         |    1 |   0.53% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Houndour           |    1 |   0.53% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Abra               |    1 |   0.53% |   0.00% |

As expected, Raichu tops the list with a 76% usage rate, closely followed by Feraligatr at 73.6% usage. There is then a sharp drop to Weezing at 53.6% and a 47.9% usage rate for Pineco.

Stats that were surprising to me:

Xatu at 64% win rate - it's obviously good but Raichu beats it pretty badly, and Feraligatr isn't bad against it, so I am kind of surprised that its win rate is this high.

Fearow at 61.5% win rate - similar with the above, but also loses hard to Rock-types, which appear to be pretty common.

Wigglytuff at 47.6% win rate - I was considering Wigglytuff to be a Pokemon that would probably catch on as a top tier threat, since it has a big and useful movepool and pretty decent stats. I was probably expecting a win rate in the high 50s.

Tangela at 60% win rate - I was pleasantly surprised with how strong Tangela was in this replay. It is nice to see some success for Grass-types.

Poliwrath at 35% win rate - I knew that Poliwrath was not so great, but 35% is really bad. I am going to partially attribute this to people not figuring out how to use him yet.

Kingler at 30% win rate - Kingler was another pick I expected to be very effective, but apparently Feraligatr's stats are just high enough that Kingler loses a lot of the time.

Persian at 75% win rate - Sub Swagger Psych Up is clearly a very strong strategy in this meta...

Stantler at 85% win rate - Stantler is definitely hugely underrated right now, Normal STAB + EQ is extremely good to have in this meta.

Sunflora at 0% win rate - Just kidding everyone saw this coming.

Dragonair at 83% win rate - I have absolutely no idea how this won any games, let alone 5 out of 6. Who even used this?

We also have stats from the November RoA Community Choice ladder, but there are no win rates so they are not that interesting to me. If anyone wants to make any observations: https://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-11/gen2nu-0.txt

Looking at the possibility of a NUBL

Following the conclusion of the tournament, I sent a survey to players who had reasonable levels of success in the tournament (eliminated in R3 or later)) or on the ladder (although I am still trying to find Socks & Crocs who I am pretty sure played the most games on the ladder out of anyone at 128 games). The survey asked their opinion of the current NU metagame with a focus on what they thought about Raichu and/or Feraligatr and the state of the tier.

The responses are below:

(from 1 - not at all enjoyable to 5 - very enjoyable)

Raichu Specific Responses

For this question I included a set of checkboxes with some ideas that people might have or not have about Raichu in the tier. For most of the options I gave, I tried to include possible contrary options as well. There were 11 respondents in total.

Raichu-specific additional comments:

thunder surf resttalk only

for sure you have to scout his moveset first but then there are plenty of answers and it cant simply covers all of it with just one moveset.

When x is the most reliable way to deal with x you tend to not promote healthy metagames. I will admit that the mirrors aren't full luck like rby zam mirrors for example, but conserving pp just in case isn't exactly highly skillful play either.

I think it's important to focus on team sinergy, rather than falling in the trap of "finding" a specific counter. Over-relying on ST Raichu dittos is a bad idea, ofc. Even though some of its checks (Graveler, Dug, Grass-types) might find trouble with a specific variant, maybe it's a good idea to adapt your own Raichu set / team concept to play around it (e: Seismic Toss Raichu gains a slight advantage against the Surf / Rest-less Raichu, forcing it to Rest can force the RNG game against Kingler or Lickitung). I've been using some slighty agressive teams with moderate success (some Offenses with Pineco / Graveler or Sudowoodo / Weezing or ML + Boom / DBond Gastly, or Paralyze- or Toxic-based strats featuring threats like Wigglytuff or SubSD Kingler for example), and I think there's a decent amount of counterplay against it, even if it might force you to take a more offensive approach sometimes.

Feraligatr Specific Responses

Feraligatr-specific additional comments:

disgusting pocket monster

It's way too easy to create gamestates where g8r can't be broken. You almost need stuff like boom or setup to even touch it, the latter gets reset by roar g8r.

Honestly, I don't see Gatr as a broken threat. Sometimes you just need to play patiently around it, and try to find a good opportunity to outplay it. IMO Raichu + any bulky-water is good enough to play around it. Stuff like Kingler and Azumarill are hella anti-meta (especially when people stick to Thunder Raichu instead of TBolt, and ST Gatr instead of Roar), and people should use them more IMO. BP strats are probably a good backup against it, although I need to test it more.

Comments on the GSC NU metagame in general:

Fun metagame, but definitely room for improvement. Hope to play it more moving forward!

good games with the best teams end up revolving around the mirror matches (and the movesets that raichu / gatr are running)

needs more grass types damnit. overall a solid tier, just feels matchup based and the only viable playstyle is bulky offense. despite that its still fun, just hard to be completely aware of what you’re facing at times

I am not confident to say that I understand the metagame very well at this point.

first it was fun then i dont feel as comfortable with build and play and i lost interest, there are certain pokemon def better than others atm and the lack of variety in strategy you can apply sucks.

Could improve if we thought about having a suspect test for Feraligatr although I might be leaning for Rakchu to stay at the moment

I feel like it's stupid centralized but that is just a gsc feature. I'd say give it time and more than a single tour, but look into potentially removing those two.

Overall I think the tier is fine as it is. I think there is a moderate amount of room for creativity (although it's always important to consider Raichu / Gatr / Weezing answers), and they're slighty centralizing (at least teambuilding-wise), although I don't see it as a negative point. On the flipside, too bad NU doesn't have any good Grass-types...

To add my own opinion (since I didn't include it when I filled out the form myself), I think we should probably look at getting rid of one or both of Feraligatr and Raichu. I think Feraligatr is indeed too powerful, and Feraligatr being powerful is one of the main reasons Raichu is so oppressive, since Feraligatr is often what provides Raichu the easy opportunity to switch in. Removing the super tank from the metagame will most likely result in more variety in the Water-types used and make physical attackers stronger. It will probably also result in a small buff to Fire-types. Raichu will also still be excellent, but should not be the same oppressive force without the constant pattern of physical attackers being stopped by Feraligatr.

What I actually disliked the most about the metagame in my most competitive games so far has been my reliance on my SToss Raichu beating the opponent's SToss Raichu. Choosing to Rest or SToss when you and your opponent are both 2 or 1(!) STosses from fainting is horrible, especially since it felt like risk avoidance could simply dig me into a deeper hole, and the teams I used did not seem to have any better move to make in those situations. My Raichu getting paralysed by Finchinator's in the tournament very much killed my chances that game. However, even if that didn't happen, I have little doubt that the outcome of the Raichu vs Raichu duel would have had a huge impact on the game's outcome. Another example where I felt the outcome depended heavily on the outcome of the Raichu vs Raichu duel is this one from the OML. In this game, it looks like I have a big advantage, but in reality (partly due to running HPump on Gatr instead of Surf) I am not far from realistically losing if my Raichu faints. This issue can be remedied in the team builder somewhat by having durable backup counters like Grass-types, which also function as solid status spreaders or screen-setters, but I have found overall that even some of the "counters" will eventually lose to Raichu if they keep having to switch into it.

It is clear from the stats that the majority of the players surveyed are in favour of changing something, and most players want to ban at least Feraligatr. One could argue that people haven't taken the time to figure out the strategies that beat Feraligatr Raichu, but I honestly feel like they simply beat so much of the meta themselves that it is almost trivial to cover most other threats in the remaining four slots. It could also be argued that we should wait until a highly competitive tournament such as NUPL (which will hopefully include the tier) before making the decision.

I am not going to put any dates on a decision for the time being but I would like to hear any further opinions on the matter. (Is it too soon? Is Feraligatr clearly busted? Is Raichu the actual culprit that is decreasing the enjoyability of the meta? etc) Comments on the stats are also welcome.

 

[alive]

Well I used Dragonair so I guess I'll give my reasoning. Dragonair switches pretty well into Raichu as long as it doesnt have hp ice and I didnt think I would see much of that, even if it does your own rest talk Raichu beats hp ice Raichus anyway. I also thought I would see very little ice move usage in general due to the prominence of fire and water coverage scaring grasses and grounds. Its stats are slightly subpar but I valued pure dragon typing pretty highly in that, if I was right about ice moves being uncommon, nothing hits it super effectively. The set I used was resttalk curse espeed, I dont know if its actually good enough because I never really played enough games with it. fwiw the two games I lost I also used dragonair but they didnt get saved so the usage doesnt reflect that.

 

[Fireburn]

I missed your PM so as penance I will post some thoughts here.

I'm actually not surprised Xatu was so successful given the only Psychic resist in the tier is itself. Thief sets are good at wearing down Raichu/Gatr and its Psychic will punch a hole in anything. The backup check vs Dugtrio and Fighting is also nice.

Raichu might be a necessary evil to keep around to help deal with the Water-types, I think the Grass-types in this tier aren't reliable enough to handle them if they run Ice moves or are Drum Poliwrath. Tangela (as I found out first hand lol...) is actually pretty good but the other options are uh not good and Tangela doesn't exactly tank Ice Beams. I don't actually think Raichu is broken, it's clearly the best mon in the meta but has just enough counterplay to keep it manageable between itself, paralysis, Grass-types, and Dugtrio. Being oftentimes shoehorned into running Resttalk itself to stay alive against Water-types and other Raichu also helps limit its options.

That said, I think Feraligatr is probably broken. It tanks way too much stuff and oftentimes games do end up coming down to Gatr outlasting the Gatr checks and then just stonewalling everything until it wins, especially if its a Roar set with Spikes up. I've tried to build with the other Water-types in this metagame and I just can't justify using them because Feraligatr is such a super tank my team is so much defensively worse if I don't' have it. Raichu is basically the only thing really keeping it in check because the Grass-types are both not that good barring Tangela and are also very easily punished by Weezing which is a horrible mon to give free turns. This just reinforces Raichu/Gatr/Weezing as the top 3 mons and while I recognize centralization in a GSC meta is inevitable I think the degree this loop feeds back into itself is maybe too much. That said, I would give it more time before making a decision as I would hate to base that call off just one tournament.

I think banning Feraligatr would mostly buff Dugtrio, since the Rocks and Fighters still exist to keep Fearow and Cursing Normals in check. My hot take is that none of the Fire-types are that great because Weezing basically fills their defensive niche while also handling Fighting-types and also also being way scarier on offense with a more spammable STAB and the threat of boom. Dugtrio is already a top mon imo so this might be a bit worrisome, but I don't think the degree to which Dugtrio becomes better will be unhealthy.

 

[Bughouse]

Fully agree with Beds on this point:

"It's way too easy to create gamestates where g8r can't be broken. You almost need stuff like boom or setup to even touch it, the latter gets reset by roar g8r."

It should go and I don't think that needs to wait for NUPL. I am tempted to say wait on Raichu as it really is too much theorymon to say what the metagame will look like without Gatr. At the same time I am more than a little concerned that Poliwrath will be able to just step in and run the same Rest Talk Surf Toxic set as Gatr with a very similar stat line:

90/95/90 bulk vs 85/100/83 bulk
70 Spe vs 78 Spe
70 SpA vs 79 SpA

The only super noticeable difference is that Poliwrath would not run EQ as effectively as Feraligatr, since it has much lower Atk. But Toxic was the better set imo anyway, even on Gatr.

So it's possible removing Gatr alone won't really substantially change the metagame.

 

[Enigami]

Really informative Earthworm! Sadly, I haven't played the tier and missed out on the ladder, but from the replays/stats I think I can contribute with some thoughts:

"Fearow at 61.5% win rate - similar with the above, but also loses hard to Rock-types, which appear to be pretty common."

I only really saw Double-Edge spammed in the replays I saw, what set does it run? 'Cause if it has room anywhere, HP Grass helps with that. Double-Edge + Spikes Damage + HP Grass should KO Graveler switching into Double-Edge, and brings Sudowoodo from a 5HKO (with HP Ground) to a 4HKO. Also eviscerates the other Rock/Grounds and Water/Rocks if they pop up. Dropping Drill Peck for Hidden Power on RestTalk seems like an explorable option if losing Flying STAB/2HKO on Pineco and being walled by Gastly (which appears to be less common than Rocks) is ok.


Poliwrath replacing Feraligatr looks a bit more manageable. Psychic weakness means Xatu switches into and beats it, and its Flying-weakness is similarly great news for Fearow.


Ivysaur & Gloom have good winrates despite lower usage than Bayleef & Sunflora. Possibly just a fluke especially since they were only used 4/2 times respectively, but it might be worth looking into. Maybe the secondary Poison-typing is a critical difference in the meta?


On paper, Sneasel looks like it might actually be usable in this meta, mostly because of Xatu apparently being the 5th most common Pokemon. Sneasel can harass Xatu quite effectively (VERY effectively if it isn't carrying Drill Peck or a SE Hidden Power), and can use it to set up Reflect or steal an item. It also has Pursuit to chunk Xatu and Gastly as they flee, the former making Sneasel notable as support for Poliwrath (if Feraligatr gets banned) and the latter for Curse Mono-Normals. Shadow Ball + Pursuit + Moonlight + 4th I think would be the way to go, Moonlight helping to keep Sneasel healthy enough to threaten Xatu/Gastly for as long as possible (until they're dead ideally). 115 Speed with Pursuit is also nice to make mons that are nearly dead actually dead. I suspect it'll be better than Houndour at any rate in the Pursuit role, Sneasel looks to have more longevity and utility (and is harder for Drill Peck Xatu or Thunder Gastly to break through).

More Sneasel thoughts

Xatu Drill Peck vs. Houndour: 136-160 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gastly Thunder vs. Houndour: 131-154 (44.7 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Houndour Crunch/Pursuit (80BP) vs. Xatu: 188-222 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Houndour Crunch/Pursuit (80BP) vs. Gastly: 265-312 (100.7 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Xatu Drill Peck vs. Sneasel: 104-123 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 14.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gastly Thunder vs. Sneasel: 103-122 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 8.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Shadow Ball vs. Xatu: 142-168 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Pursuit (80BP) vs. Xatu: 124-146 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Shadow Ball vs. Gastly: 214-252 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Shadow Ball vs. Gastly: 214-252 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- 56.4% chance to OHKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Pursuit ( vs. Gastly: 175-206 (66.5 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Houndour vs. Sneasel - While Houndour packs a much stronger punch, its lower bulk, lack of speed and lack of instant recovery means if it switches into Xatu's Drill Peck, Houndour is outsped and outright loses 1v1, and Gastly can win if it lands Hypnosis, decides to just trade with Explosion, or even beat Houndour as it switches in if it hits with Thunder, wins the Pursuit mind game staying in while the Houndour uses Pursuit and lands the other 2 Thunders. Sneasel on the other hand has the speed advantage on both Pokemon, has a 45% chance to survive Gastly's Explosion, is only 4HKO'd by common attacks most of the time, and has Moonlight to negate attempts to chip at it and wear it down, with the one downside being not killing as swiftly as Houndour can if all goes well.

Reflect - Easy team support when paired with Moonlight and if the opponent has any Pokemon that can't 2HKO, even moreso if they are scared out by Sneasel, can't 3HKO, and/or lack the ability to paralyze/sleep it.

Thief - Annoys the bulky mons that otherwise switch into Sneasel's mediocre attacks with little trouble. Usable even if running a non-consumable item, so you can steal an item back after Thief Xatu steals Sneasel's. Probably best to not run with Leftovers though so you can focus on screwing over Thief Xatu first.

Ice Beam - It now beats Graveler and Dugtrio 1v1, and enables Grass-type/Dragonair harassing too. Plus Freeze hax.

Never-Melt Ice - Under the assumption you'll be switching Sneasel into Xatu and that your Sneasel packs Ice Beam, this isn't a bad item to use. If they Thief it away, they are stuck with a useless item, and if they don't, Ice Beam 2HKOs them. Also now beats Fearow 1v1.

Toxic - Another way to annoy switch-ins by wearing them down.

Dynamic Punch - Handy for hitting Sudowoodo and Normal-types that otherwise don't care much about Sneasel's attacks

Screech - Probably best with a Spike setter to capitalize on switches. If Feraligatr is removed and Poliwrath takes its place, then it also can beat or force out Poliwrath if it switches into Screech instead of being Curse setup fodder.

Double-Edge - Harder hitting neutral coverage, not terribly strong though with only 95 Atk and no STAB.

Hidden Power Ground - Extra power for Fire-types and Raichu, Fire-types are bad matchups if they aren't in KO range and Raichu is a shaky mon for Sneasel to try and 1v1.

Counter - Always good for an unexpected surprise, and don't forget ALL Hidden Powers count as physical in GSC!

Blizzard - 2HKOs Xatu and Fearow without needing Never-Melt Ice, 70% accuracy though...

Other items - Boosting items that Xatu doesn't use for coverage (except maybe Black Glasses for stronger pursuit earlier on since Thief is only 40BP), PRZ Cure Berry or Miracle Berry all are explorable options to pair with Thief. Maybe BrightPowder to be more annoying, but that can easily backfire if Xatu nabs it.

I'm feeling more interested in playing now, where's the best place to get some GSC NU games?

 

[neomon]

Really informative Earthworm! Sadly, I haven't played the tier and missed out on the ladder, but from the replays/stats I think I can contribute with some thoughts:

"Fearow at 61.5% win rate - similar with the above, but also loses hard to Rock-types, which appear to be pretty common."

I only really saw Double-Edge spammed in the replays I saw, what set does it run? 'Cause if it has room anywhere, HP Grass helps with that. Double-Edge + Spikes Damage + HP Grass should KO Graveler switching into Double-Edge, and brings Sudowoodo from a 5HKO (with HP Ground) to a 4HKO. Also eviscerates the other Rock/Grounds and Water/Rocks if they pop up. Dropping Drill Peck for Hidden Power on RestTalk seems like an explorable option if losing Flying STAB/2HKO on Pineco and being walled by Gastly (which appears to be less common than Rocks) is ok.


Poliwrath replacing Feraligatr looks a bit more manageable. Psychic weakness means Xatu switches into and beats it, and its Flying-weakness is similarly great news for Fearow.


Ivysaur & Gloom have good winrates despite lower usage than Bayleef & Sunflora. Possibly just a fluke especially since they were only used 4/2 times respectively, but it might be worth looking into. Maybe the secondary Poison-typing is a critical difference in the meta?


On paper, Sneasel looks like it might actually be usable in this meta, mostly because of Xatu apparently being the 5th most common Pokemon. Sneasel can harass Xatu quite effectively (VERY effectively if it isn't carrying Drill Peck or a SE Hidden Power), and can use it to set up Reflect or steal an item. It also has Pursuit to chunk Xatu and Gastly as they flee, the former making Sneasel notable as support for Poliwrath (if Feraligatr gets banned) and the latter for Curse Mono-Normals. Shadow Ball + Pursuit + Moonlight + 4th I think would be the way to go, Moonlight helping to keep Sneasel healthy enough to threaten Xatu/Gastly for as long as possible (until they're dead ideally). 115 Speed with Pursuit is also nice to make mons that are nearly dead actually dead. I suspect it'll be better than Houndour at any rate in the Pursuit role, Sneasel looks to have more longevity and utility (and is harder for Drill Peck Xatu or Thunder Gastly to break through).

More Sneasel thoughts

Xatu Drill Peck vs. Houndour: 136-160 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gastly Thunder vs. Houndour: 131-154 (44.7 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Houndour Crunch/Pursuit (80BP) vs. Xatu: 188-222 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Houndour Crunch/Pursuit (80BP) vs. Gastly: 265-312 (100.7 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Xatu Drill Peck vs. Sneasel: 104-123 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 14.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gastly Thunder vs. Sneasel: 103-122 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 8.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Shadow Ball vs. Xatu: 142-168 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Pursuit (80BP) vs. Xatu: 124-146 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Shadow Ball vs. Gastly: 214-252 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Shadow Ball vs. Gastly: 214-252 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- 56.4% chance to OHKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Pursuit ( vs. Gastly: 175-206 (66.5 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Houndour vs. Sneasel - While Houndour packs a much stronger punch, its lower bulk, lack of speed and lack of instant recovery means if it switches into Xatu's Drill Peck, Houndour is outsped and outright loses 1v1, and Gastly can win if it lands Hypnosis, decides to just trade with Explosion, or even beat Houndour as it switches in if it hits with Thunder, wins the Pursuit mind game staying in while the Houndour uses Pursuit and lands the other 2 Thunders. Sneasel on the other hand has the speed advantage on both Pokemon, has a 45% chance to survive Gastly's Explosion, is only 4HKO'd by common attacks most of the time, and has Moonlight to negate attempts to chip at it and wear it down, with the one downside being not killing as swiftly as Houndour can if all goes well.

Reflect - Easy team support when paired with Moonlight and if the opponent has any Pokemon that can't 2HKO, even moreso if they are scared out by Sneasel, can't 3HKO, and/or lack the ability to paralyze/sleep it.

Thief - Annoys the bulky mons that otherwise switch into Sneasel's mediocre attacks with little trouble. Usable even if running a non-consumable item, so you can steal an item back after Thief Xatu steals Sneasel's. Probably best to not run with Leftovers though so you can focus on screwing over Thief Xatu first.

Ice Beam - It now beats Graveler and Dugtrio 1v1, and enables Grass-type/Dragonair harassing too. Plus Freeze hax.

Never-Melt Ice - Under the assumption you'll be switching Sneasel into Xatu and that your Sneasel packs Ice Beam, this isn't a bad item to use. If they Thief it away, they are stuck with a useless item, and if they don't, Ice Beam 2HKOs them. Also now beats Fearow 1v1.

Toxic - Another way to annoy switch-ins by wearing them down.

Dynamic Punch - Handy for hitting Sudowoodo and Normal-types that otherwise don't care much about Sneasel's attacks

Screech - Probably best with a Spike setter to capitalize on switches. If Feraligatr is removed and Poliwrath takes its place, then it also can beat or force out Poliwrath if it switches into Screech instead of being Curse setup fodder.

Double-Edge - Harder hitting neutral coverage, not terribly strong though with only 95 Atk and no STAB.

Hidden Power Ground - Extra power for Fire-types and Raichu, Fire-types are bad matchups if they aren't in KO range and Raichu is a shaky mon for Sneasel to try and 1v1.

Counter - Always good for an unexpected surprise, and don't forget ALL Hidden Powers count as physical in GSC!

Blizzard - 2HKOs Xatu and Fearow without needing Never-Melt Ice, 70% accuracy though...

Other items - Boosting items that Xatu doesn't use for coverage (except maybe Black Glasses for stronger pursuit earlier on since Thief is only 40BP), PRZ Cure Berry or Miracle Berry all are explorable options to pair with Thief. Maybe BrightPowder to be more annoying, but that can easily backfire if Xatu nabs it.

I'm feeling more interested in playing now, where's the best place to get some GSC NU games?

I personally got bored by this meta kinda quickly cause I dropped out r1, as to gatr or raichu, Raichu seems like the thing keeping the together similarly to i guess raikou in ou? it does a lot for a team by just putting it on there and I'm afraid the tier might be a little too shaky without it. Gatr on the other hand is not only stupidly fat but the all out attacker set is also scary and you end up resorting to checking it w raichu or your own gatr, I consider it potentially unhealthy, just gotta see how it all pans out without it probablyy

 

[Earthworm]

Fully agree with Beds on this point:

"It's way too easy to create gamestates where g8r can't be broken. You almost need stuff like boom or setup to even touch it, the latter gets reset by roar g8r."

It should go and I don't think that needs to wait for NUPL. I am tempted to say wait on Raichu as it really is too much theorymon to say what the metagame will look like without Gatr. At the same time I am more than a little concerned that Poliwrath will be able to just step in and run the same Rest Talk Surf Toxic set as Gatr with a very similar stat line:

90/95/90 bulk vs 85/100/83 bulk
70 Spe vs 78 Spe
70 SpA vs 79 SpA

The only super noticeable difference is that Poliwrath would not run EQ as effectively as Feraligatr, since it has much lower Atk. But Toxic was the better set imo anyway, even on Gatr.

So it's possible removing Gatr alone won't really substantially change the metagame.

That is a great observation, Poliwrath's defenses are in fact virtually identical to Feraligatr's. At first glance it seems like it would be able to pull off a similar role, but I actually think the loss of 9 base SpA will change a lot. I have checked a few calcs and while it's not going to change anything against Dugtrio or Graveler, it will potentially make a big difference in terms of neutral hits. Poliwrath isn't guaranteed to beat Wigglytuff even with a crit Surf, for example. It has no chance of 3HKOing restalk Primeape or Stantler without a CH unlike Feraligatr, and goes from a safe 3HKO on Raichu with Surf to almost no chance of 3HKOing. Another case is Flareon - Feraligatr fairly safely 2HKOs it, whereas Poliwrath almost can't. I am sure there are many other similar cases where 2HKOs have become 3HKOs, 3HKOs have become 4HKOs or 4HKOs have become 5HKOs.

The matchup where the biggest changes would occur is probably against Kingler. Feraligatr could reasonably stay in and fight standard Sub SD Return HP Ground Kingler, outspeeding it and having a 47.115% chance to break its Substitutes with Surf, meaning even if Kingler came in on a paralysed Feraligatr, it still was not guaranteed to get work done. Poliwrath only has the 6.25% chance of breaking with a CH Surf, and on top of that is also slower, meaning Kingler completely dominates it if it doesn't switch in on Toxic.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work playing a similar role, but it is clearly going to have some problems that Feraligatr had the luxury of not having to worry about.

"Fearow at 61.5% win rate - similar with the above, but also loses hard to Rock-types, which appear to be pretty common."

I only really saw Double-Edge spammed in the replays I saw, what set does it run? 'Cause if it has room anywhere, HP Grass helps with that. Double-Edge + Spikes Damage + HP Grass should KO Graveler switching into Double-Edge, and brings Sudowoodo from a 5HKO (with HP Ground) to a 4HKO. Also eviscerates the other Rock/Grounds and Water/Rocks if they pop up. Dropping Drill Peck for Hidden Power on RestTalk seems like an explorable option if losing Flying STAB/2HKO on Pineco and being walled by Gastly (which appears to be less common than Rocks) is ok.

I think HP Grass would decrease your effectiveness while asleep by quite a lot on RestTalk, but it would work on the non-RestTalk set for sure. HP Grass Fearow was also used in the old NU meta.

Ivysaur & Gloom have good winrates despite lower usage than Bayleef & Sunflora. Possibly just a fluke especially since they were only used 4/2 times respectively, but it might be worth looking into. Maybe the secondary Poison-typing is a critical difference in the meta?

The Poison-typing is very likely a pro in the NU metagame. Fighting resistance and taking neutral damage from Poison is great, and while you lose the Ground resistance, you still don't do too badly against the Ground-types. Plus of course the Toxic immunity can be a big deal. It's kind of funny because it's the other way around in UU, where Jumpluff and Bellossom are better than Victreebel and Vileplume.

On paper, Sneasel looks like it might actually be usable in this meta, mostly because of Xatu apparently being the 5th most common Pokemon. Sneasel can harass Xatu quite effectively (VERY effectively if it isn't carrying Drill Peck or a SE Hidden Power), and can use it to set up Reflect or steal an item. It also has Pursuit to chunk Xatu and Gastly as they flee, the former making Sneasel notable as support for Poliwrath (if Feraligatr gets banned) and the latter for Curse Mono-Normals. Shadow Ball + Pursuit + Moonlight + 4th I think would be the way to go, Moonlight helping to keep Sneasel healthy enough to threaten Xatu/Gastly for as long as possible (until they're dead ideally). 115 Speed with Pursuit is also nice to make mons that are nearly dead actually dead. I suspect it'll be better than Houndour at any rate in the Pursuit role, Sneasel looks to have more longevity and utility (and is harder for Drill Peck Xatu or Thunder Gastly to break through).

More Sneasel thoughts

Xatu Drill Peck vs. Houndour: 136-160 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gastly Thunder vs. Houndour: 131-154 (44.7 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Houndour Crunch/Pursuit (80BP) vs. Xatu: 188-222 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Houndour Crunch/Pursuit (80BP) vs. Gastly: 265-312 (100.7 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Xatu Drill Peck vs. Sneasel: 104-123 (33.2 - 39.2%) -- 14.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gastly Thunder vs. Sneasel: 103-122 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- 8.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Shadow Ball vs. Xatu: 142-168 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Pursuit (80BP) vs. Xatu: 124-146 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Shadow Ball vs. Gastly: 214-252 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Shadow Ball vs. Gastly: 214-252 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- 56.4% chance to OHKO after Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Sneasel Pursuit ( vs. Gastly: 175-206 (66.5 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Houndour vs. Sneasel - While Houndour packs a much stronger punch, its lower bulk, lack of speed and lack of instant recovery means if it switches into Xatu's Drill Peck, Houndour is outsped and outright loses 1v1, and Gastly can win if it lands Hypnosis, decides to just trade with Explosion, or even beat Houndour as it switches in if it hits with Thunder, wins the Pursuit mind game staying in while the Houndour uses Pursuit and lands the other 2 Thunders. Sneasel on the other hand has the speed advantage on both Pokemon, has a 45% chance to survive Gastly's Explosion, is only 4HKO'd by common attacks most of the time, and has Moonlight to negate attempts to chip at it and wear it down, with the one downside being not killing as swiftly as Houndour can if all goes well.

Reflect - Easy team support when paired with Moonlight and if the opponent has any Pokemon that can't 2HKO, even moreso if they are scared out by Sneasel, can't 3HKO, and/or lack the ability to paralyze/sleep it.

Thief - Annoys the bulky mons that otherwise switch into Sneasel's mediocre attacks with little trouble. Usable even if running a non-consumable item, so you can steal an item back after Thief Xatu steals Sneasel's. Probably best to not run with Leftovers though so you can focus on screwing over Thief Xatu first.

Ice Beam - It now beats Graveler and Dugtrio 1v1, and enables Grass-type/Dragonair harassing too. Plus Freeze hax.

Never-Melt Ice - Under the assumption you'll be switching Sneasel into Xatu and that your Sneasel packs Ice Beam, this isn't a bad item to use. If they Thief it away, they are stuck with a useless item, and if they don't, Ice Beam 2HKOs them. Also now beats Fearow 1v1.

Toxic - Another way to annoy switch-ins by wearing them down.

Dynamic Punch - Handy for hitting Sudowoodo and Normal-types that otherwise don't care much about Sneasel's attacks

Screech - Probably best with a Spike setter to capitalize on switches. If Feraligatr is removed and Poliwrath takes its place, then it also can beat or force out Poliwrath if it switches into Screech instead of being Curse setup fodder.

Double-Edge - Harder hitting neutral coverage, not terribly strong though with only 95 Atk and no STAB.

Hidden Power Ground - Extra power for Fire-types and Raichu, Fire-types are bad matchups if they aren't in KO range and Raichu is a shaky mon for Sneasel to try and 1v1.

Counter - Always good for an unexpected surprise, and don't forget ALL Hidden Powers count as physical in GSC!

Blizzard - 2HKOs Xatu and Fearow without needing Never-Melt Ice, 70% accuracy though...

Other items - Boosting items that Xatu doesn't use for coverage (except maybe Black Glasses for stronger pursuit earlier on since Thief is only 40BP), PRZ Cure Berry or Miracle Berry all are explorable options to pair with Thief. Maybe BrightPowder to be more annoying, but that can easily backfire if Xatu nabs it.

As neomon pointed out, Sneasel doesn't get Pursuit in Gen 2. That said, I've tried it out and think that Toxic/Screech/Moonlight/Return is half decent with Spikes up.

I'm feeling more interested in playing now, where's the best place to get some GSC NU games?

If you post in the RoA discord or NU discord old gens channel saying you're looking for NU games, I will probably notice and we can play. Otherwise, I'm sure people who have posted in the thread or responded to the survey would be happy to play you if you can find them on PS.

 

[Enigami]

Whoops, got mixed up with later gens Sneasel which does have it. Without Pursuit, yeah it'd probably need either Screech or Reflect to make itself worthwhile.

 

[Earthworm]

Additional survey response from Socks & Crocs

Socks & Crocs is an active GSC player who has probably played the most new GSC NU games to date (128+). I don't think he has a Smogon account but his response to the survey is below:

Banning Feraligatr

I am looking to move forward with potentially banning Feraligatr given that most respondents to the survey and in the thread seem to agree that it is too strong for the tier. Those opposed or unsure about it don't have a strong objection to the ban either. My reasoning for this can be found in my earlier posts and in the survey responses. I will elaborate further in a future post.

I will allow people to post any objections to the banning to NUBL of Feraligatr in this thread and if it appears there is much disagreement, I will look at postponing the ban until after the next major NU event or not banning it at all.

If there are no significant objections to banning Feraligatr, we will be banning it to NUBL on the 1st of January 2019. If anyone thinks this is too short a time period please let me know.

GSC NU Viability Ranking Formation

Since we now have stats and some experience playing in the new tier, it is time to create an initial viability ranking for the new tier. Doing this now might seem like it conflicts with the above ban suggestion but if we don't make it now we will probably be waiting until after NUPL. In order to do this I have created another Google form. WARNING: It will probably take some time to fill out since it requires you to rank 74 Pokemon.

Click here to answer the Viability Ranking survey.

The form will accept responses until at least the 1st of January. I will probably weight the responses based on who is making them and how much GSC NU they have played.

 

[King Roma]

I fear that by banning feraligatr Dugtrio becomes a problem
Rn i'd say it's easily the 4th, even 3rd best mon in the tier thanks to it's speed and thanks to a lot of raichus not running surf
It's held back by being walled hard by sleeptalk feraligatr
Now, without feraligatr, what blocks quake-slide? Golduck has nowhere near the physical bulk as feraligatr
Grass types? 1 they're shit and 2 he has sludge bomb
Normals? Maybe wigglytuff can check it, but lickitung isn't bulky enough and raticate/persian are frail and slower

Now, in that case raichu would become a lot less of a threat with a hard counter to it's seismic toss/hp ground set and losing it's best favourable matchup

Just something to consider, i think having your best mon in the tier be the fastest one is terrible

 

[xJoelituh]

I fear that by banning feraligatr Dugtrio becomes a problem
Rn i'd say it's easily the 4th, even 3rd best mon in the tier thanks to it's speed and thanks to a lot of raichus not running surf
It's held back by being walled hard by sleeptalk feraligatr
Now, without feraligatr, what blocks quake-slide? Golduck has nowhere near the physical bulk as feraligatr
Grass types? 1 they're shit and 2 he has sludge bomb
Normals? Maybe wigglytuff can check it, but lickitung isn't bulky enough and raticate/persian are frail and slower

Now, in that case raichu would become a lot less of a threat with a hard counter to it's seismic toss/hp ground set and losing it's best favourable matchup

Just something to consider, i think having your best mon in the tier be the fastest one is terrible

Fwiw, when banning a Pokemon you usually shouldn't look at the consequences, if a Pokemon is broken after a ban, that is probably the next target or people will find ways to check it

 

[Earthworm]

I fear that by banning feraligatr Dugtrio becomes a problem
Rn i'd say it's easily the 4th, even 3rd best mon in the tier thanks to it's speed and thanks to a lot of raichus not running surf
It's held back by being walled hard by sleeptalk feraligatr
Now, without feraligatr, what blocks quake-slide? Golduck has nowhere near the physical bulk as feraligatr
Grass types? 1 they're shit and 2 he has sludge bomb
Normals? Maybe wigglytuff can check it, but lickitung isn't bulky enough and raticate/persian are frail and slower

Now, in that case raichu would become a lot less of a threat with a hard counter to it's seismic toss/hp ground set and losing it's best favourable matchup

Just something to consider, i think having your best mon in the tier be the fastest one is terrible

As Bughouse pointed out, Poliwrath is equally physically tanky as Feraligatr and it also resists Rock Slide to deter flinch attempts. It can use the same Surf Toxic Rest Sleep Talk set Feraligatr commonly used, as well as the one with EQ over Toxic, albeit not quite as effectively due to lower SpA. It should be able to fulfil the role of Dugtrio counter without being as big a problem for other physical attackers like Fearow, Lickitung, Stantler, Primeape, Hitmonlee etc.

There will also be other less reliable but decent options for checks such as Pidgeot, Mantine, Hitmontop, Octillery, Dewgong, Kingler, Tangela, Porygon etc. This combined with the fact that Dugtrio is usually not that easy to get in for free should result in a metagame where it is strong but not completely broken.

I personally view Dugtrio's improvement as a positive thing for the metagame (maybe I will regret saying this though). 80% of the meta being walled and/or having a decent chance of losing to Feraligatr does not make for interesting gameplay in my opinion.

 

[Beelzemon 2003]

Hi guys, here are some replays of NU with Item Clause for those who want to give a different flavor to this format:

Replays

Beat Up

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2nu-832821509

Octillery is cute

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2nu-832824706

Farfetch’d Stick

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2nu-832834459

No, Haze ruined my strategy!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2nu-832838047

Confusion Tangela

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2nu-832851492

Who is better, Pidgeot or Noctowl?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2nu-833778709

Sleep Talk Octillery

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2nu-833793086

By the way, if you like Item Clause, I have a thread with tips, sample teams and hundreds of replays:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...e-cup-and-ubers-resources-discussion.3634609/

See you around chums :P

 

[Earthworm]

Feraligatr is now banned from GSC NU.

After exploring the GSC NU tier for a while, the player base (and myself) is mostly in agreement that Feraligatr is too strong for the tier and should be banned to NUBL. My reasoning for this is as follows:
- There are very few good answers to its Rest Sleep Talk sets. It is not susceptible to status due to Rest, Spikes damage is rarely enough to put it in danger, and several of the tier's strongest Explosions can fail to OHKO it.
- Of those few good answers, few again actually pose enough of an immediate threat to force the Feraligatr user to make an immediate reactive move, i.e. the Feraligatr user is usually not obligated to switch immediately, except against Raichu.
- Several of its answers (including many variants of itself) allow Raichu in easily, which does not have any true counters and is another oppressive force in the metagame.
- Feraligatr + Raichu can beat almost the entire metagame by themselves, meaning the remaining slots on the team easily cover the few physical attackers that can withstand them.
- Feraligatr pretty much forces a defensive reaction because of its massive physical bulk and decent strength Surf, and Water-type's lack of physical weaknesses + physically-typed Pokemon lacking Water resistance.
- Feraligatr, one of the safest options vs an enemy Feraligatr, can almost never break through enemy Feraligatr, which leads to undesirable PP stall / sleep talk roll-dependent game states.
- Feraligatr has the highest BST in the tier at 530, and has the movepool to make effective use of all six stats.
- Having reviewed the list of available Pokemon, I consider it unlikely that effective strategies would be developed to change the state of the metagame in which Feraligatr is overbearing.

The combination of these factors is what has led to this ban.

I will also take this opportunity to address points that were for some reason made via the VR formation survey. A user that entered the name "Red Sea Pedestrian", a name not registered on Smogon and an account which only appears to have Gen 3 OU games recorded on Showdown, has made the following additional comments with their form submission:

Rather than prematurely banning stuff from NU, consider dropping Electrode, Gligar, Victreebel, Vileplume, Arcanine and maybe even Pikachu, Lanturn and others from UU. None of these have seen ANY serious tournament or ladder usage in UU, AFAIK. Feraligatr would be forced to run Earthquake in order to touch Lanturn and Ice Beam to (meaningfully) damage Victreebel/Vileplume, both of which also help balancing Raichu. Arcanine and Gligar check these two just fine and are in turn walled by the plentitude of Water types in NU. The only obvious drawback I can see right now, is making Fighting types unviable with the addition of Gligar and Vileplume.

The method used to create the new GSC NU tier was agreed upon in the thread that preceded this one. We decided on a cutoff of C+ rank based on the current rendition of the UU VR at the time. Many of these Pokemon have actually seen tournament and ladder usage in UU, as you will see if you look through the various stats that have been collected in the UU VR thread. The Pokemon listed by this user as candidates for dropping were: "Electrode, Gligar, Victreebel, Vileplume, Arcanine and maybe even Pikachu, Lanturn"
Pokemon / Usage # in UU tour / Usage # in UUPL
Electrode / #19 / #26
Gligar / #28 / #25
Victreebel / #26 / Not used
Vileplume / #33 / #33
Arcanine / #26 / Not used
Pikachu / #30 / #33
Lanturn / #33 / #28

I can also personally attest to using all of these Pokemon effectively in UU, as well as having seen others use them.

The purpose of using the method we used was to ensure that NU would not consist of Pokemon that have decent to high viability in UU, and to reduce subjectivity when creating the tier. It would be inappropriate to consider dropping most of these B rank Pokemon, especially at this point in time.

Given that we are not considering arbitrarily dropping Pokemon that are used in UU and taking into consideration the points I have listed above, I disagree with the suggestion that this ban is being made "prematurely".


Lastly, I will be finalising the initial NU VR tomorrow despite the Feraligatr ban. Please submit a form if you would like to participate in its formation.