While the council do not believe Sun is broken in a traditional sense, those who voted ban felt it had an unhealthy presence in the metagame due to its influence on teambuilding, causing games to be far more about matchup fishing than skill. As a result, Vulpix has been banned from the NFE metagame. The council discussed whether banning Ivysaur or Vulpix would be the right call when targeting Sun. While Ivysaur is by far the most prominent Chlorophyll user and a major reason for the success of Sun teams, we felt that other Chlorophyll Pokemon, namely Gloom and Tangela, would still be able to cheese teams in a similar fashion. When compared to Ivysaur, Gloom is worse against Golbat but can still hit Steel-types with Drain Punch, while Tangela has Ancient Power to hit Golbat but in turn struggles more against Steel-types. We ultimately did not feel that an Ivysaur ban would be sufficient to lessen the strain Sun puts on team building. Additionally Fire-types have gotten much better since the previous Ivysaur ban, with Sun being far less reliant on Chlorophyll users alone. Magmar and Raboot are both strong options on Sun teams, being able to KO the majority of the metagame when their STAB attacks are boosted by Sun. We hope that by removing Vulpix it will become easier to deny Sunny Day setters, and by extension open up a wider range of counterplay.
As a result, both Kadabra and Vulpix have been banned from SS NFE. Tagging Kris to implement this.
This will very likely be the last tiering action before OMPL starts, but the council will continue to closely monitor the metagame for any other threats.
On a sadder note, Greybaum is stepping down from SS NFE Council. We'd like to thank him for his time and contributions throughout the past year or so. I'd like to personally thank him for being the first to always read through and edit my suspects posts and quickban announcements so that it's a lot more coherent on the forums. We all wish him the best with whatever he chooses to do, and hope that he still drops by from time to time.
After leading NFE for nearly 2 years and being a part of the community for even longer, I’ve decided now is the time for me to step down from council and staff. This has been something that I’ve been thinking about over the past month or so, and I believe the time is now right. Being a TL has been a fun and enlightening experience albeit one that has burnt me out over time. My interest in NFE has been declining, and the metagame will need a TL who is dedicated to keep on pushing it in the right direction. I probably won’t be too active in NFE outside of team tours any more as I pursue my interests elsewhere, but for the time being I plan on staying on the QC team as we have very few members there and can’t really afford to lose another. I’ll still be around on smogon, ps, and discord as I'm still involved in several communities and wouldn't dare to disappear on my friends so soon.
With that all said, I'm happy to announce that our new Tier Leader is S1nn0hC0nfirm3d. He has valuable leading experience from ZU and has been a longstanding council member here as well. I’m very fortunate I had the pleasure of working with him and the other council members, and I have full faith they’ll continue to do an excellent job of directing the course of the metagame.
Along with NFE’s new TL, the council will be gaining five new council members after the departure of three council members just this past month. I’d like to congratulate 85percent , lepton , ojr , professor tox , and Rav3ndan as they will be joining the SS NFE council. Well deserved to all of you!!
I wish you all the best of luck moving forward. Apologies if you felt I didn’t do enough over these past few years, but I hope you can at least appreciate my efforts. Treat the metagame and each other with respect and I am confident that NFE will continue to grow and prosper.
Hey guys! Thanks jett, grey, marj, and all others that have contributed to NFE before me. Looking forward, the NFE playerbase can expect updates to our resources, especially the sample teams, as we go into the newest post-bans meta.
There's a couple of outliers that warrant discussion:
Electabuzz is now thee fastest unboosted Pokemon in the meta. It also lacks virtually any competition as an offensive Volt Switch user. You don't need to be an NFE main to put two and two together and see this potential. However, an NFE main would go on to tell you more about how Electabuzz is phenomenal as a check to Golbat, and that the meta lacks Volt Switch absorbers. Resembling Kadabra, Electabuzz has a hard-to-stop two set variation, as it can either enjoy Eviolite buffs with move freedom or wallbreak + sweep with Choice Specs. The only hard counter to Electabuzz is essentially Marshtomp. Piloswine and Krokorok cannot afford to switch into Focus Blast and neither can Gabite unless its exceedingly specially defensive, of which it would then falter as a Raboot check. Grass-types like Thwackey, Tangela, and Ferroseed situationally switch into it, but again they lose momentum with Volt Switch. Thwackey is also one of the only consistent revenge killers to Electabuzz, as otherwise teams would need Choice Scarf options like Krokorok and Raboot. Entry hazards are great in NFE, and while they annoy Electabuzz, they also enable it by punishing its switch-ins. Pretty limited, our checks to Electabuzz are.
So what's holding back Electabuzz? Marshtomp on every team? There's totally room for more innovation with lesser used NFEs and LCs now that the meta's overall power level is lower, although I would still concern ourselves with Electabuzz and see if it runs rampant and unchecked in the near future.
Galarian Mr. Mime
While less concerning (at least in my opinion), Gime is another fast threat that could be of some concern. It lost three revenge killers if you count sun sweepers, and any of its offensive sets could prove to be problematic. This is especially so with the threat of Electabuzz, as Gime can either wear down shared checks or absolutely demolish stuff like Marshtomp and Gabite with Freeze-Dry. Ouch. Its best counters end up being Gorsola, specially defensive Clefairy, and potentially Ferroseed + Klang. Forgive me if I'm missing anything but with all its offensive coverage, Gime is sure tough on the defensive meta. Offensive checks are a bit better, though, with all our priority attackers doing a solid chunk to it + more is able to outspeed it. Hazards or the lack of bulk when using Heavy-Duty Boots also somewhat keep it in check, especially when our removal is scarce.
I'm not entirely sold that Gime is extraordinary or on Electabuzz's level. I'm just putting it out here as a point of discussion and to see what everyone has to say / if they've played with it enough and know how threatening it is in actuality.
Bonus round of quick meta stuff I wanted to share:
I'm loving Iron Fist + Ice Punch! It's pretty strong, and I either do Bulk Up for cleaning or Defog if I really need it. I especially support it with Thunder Wave + Stun Spore so Golbat is targeted. Just gotta remember to creep paralyzed Golbat lol...
Bring back everyone's favorite DLC1 core Rabootey. These two + Electabuzz + a 3 mon defensive core sounds phenomenal, although swapping one for another support mon or wallbreaker prob works great too.
Toxic Spikes are pretty centralizing, especially with Koffing and VoltTurn's dominance. I'm pretty sure some expressed discontent of its threat from a teambuilding perspective.
Maybe bulky Thwackey could work instead of max Speed? Its defenses aren't bad and a slower U-turn with more bulk to switch into hits + set up SD sounds alright. Could be a quick fix to a team weak to buzz.
CB First Impression sounds nutty. Revenge kills a lot of the faster mons and breaks everything slower than it. It's just hard to pull off / fit. And yes, I kinda just wanted something like Pikachu's super strong priority.
Let us know what you guys think of the post-bans meta, especially as we go into another tour scene with OMPL. It's entirely plausible that we as a council will continue to act on unbalanced forces after the Pikachu suspect opened the floodgates so to speak to reevaluate our top-heavy meta. Our #1 goal is to make a healthy, fun meta to play, and surely NFE has all the potential to achieve this.
Unfortunately, a solid amount of my good teams have been made irrelevant by these bans, whether because they contained banned mons or because they have bad MUs against stuff that has been made much better by the bans, such as Ebuzz/Gime.
UMPL Week 2 - Phase 3
This was the team I brought against 85percent. The general idea was Taunt Ebuzz + Tspikes + VoltTurn is able to create momentum that keeps TSpikes on the field and can threaten common defog users such as Bat/Vull and can play around other forms of hazard removal such as Wartortle and Hattrem. This team had weaknesses to stuff such as Lamp/Kad which 85 did bring, but I had three different special walls in Poke/Pilo/Vull and speed control & prio in Buzz/Pilo to where I felt comfortable in my ability to check them as long as I kept offensive pressure on his team. I originally had Thwackey > Tangela, but literally 5 minutes before my game I realized my Pika weakness was pretty rough and swapped Thwackey for offensive Tangela, which covered that weakness and also gave me a soft-physical wall. This change ended up basically giving me the match because 85's team had a pretty bad Tang MU. I also had Flamethrower > Sludge Bomb on Koffing for opposing Ferroseed, which otherwise my team struggled pretty heavily with.
UMPL Week 4 - Play With The Changes
A team I made the week before Pika was banned for my match against Greybaum, the team is nearly identical to the team tlenit brought week 1 against Leo. My goal for this team was to basically build something with Choice Specs Magmar as I felt it was very underutilized compared to the more common Boots/Evio sets. I paired it with FakeSpeed pika in order to aid with speed control against the faster threats that can outspeed and revenge-kill it such as Kadabra (at the time), Raboot, Specs Mime-Galar, etc. The rest of the team was built to cover Magmar's weaknesses and bring it in safely. I feel this and tlenit's team really were some of the best examples of how Pika + Fire-type cores were so threatening and synergized incredibly well together.
Swirlix HO - Reflections of a Floating World
Finally, while brainstorming for possible UMPL teams this past week I created this HO team, partly inspired by Ho3n's use of Swirlix but also my own curiosity as to how its CM set fit into the metagame. This team isn't really prepped for increased Gime or Ebuzz usage which is why I'm posting it here but I do believe it could be altered and improved. It incorporates one of my favorite sets of all time, Power Herb Carjane which is really cool for catching stuff like Golbat off guard and possible switch-ins such as Wartortle. There's also Banded Thwackey, a mon I've really enjoyed and come to appreciate through using it in ZU, as well as lead Krokork, which I think has a lot of advantageous matchups right now. Overall, not the best team, but one I really enjoy(ed) using in friendlies and roomtours.
Looking Forward It's honestly hard to evaluate where the NFE metagame will be two weeks, a month, or two months from now. I have to echo Ho3n's views in that I do feel that Electabuzz and Mr. Mime-Galar are going to dominate the metagame until we either see some new stuff rise in usage to check them or we have an eventual suspect test. Below I'll post some fringe stuff that I think could rise in usage in response to these metagame changes.
Sandygast has the cool niche of being able to hard-wall non-Toxic variants of Electabuzz as well as eating any Psychic that comes its way.
+1 252 SpA Electabuzz Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sandygast: 90-107 (28.6 - 34%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Sandygast Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Electabuzz: 132-156 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
It also has access to Stealth Rock, a recovery move in Shore Up, and the ability to threaten any switch-ins with a Burn (via Scorching Sands). I'm not sure whether Sandygast will ever become "meta" (as in above C+ or anything) but I think it's a niche pick that will actually have a solid role in the metagame.
I'm just going to refer to these (and a couple other mons in this group that I forgot) as "Fringe bulky mons that didn't have a clear-cut niche in the metagame that are now much improved because two of the best wallbreakers have been banned". Stall has become an actual (possibly) viable playstyle in NFE because two of the best wallbreakers are now gone. Stuff like Shellos now has utility as a bulky Water-type with Sticky Hold that can check the broken Fire-types we have, Dusclops is a solid check to Mr. Mime-Galar that can threaten Pain Split or a powerful Poltergeist, and Porygon is now a solid special wall that can check most of our special attackers (also shoutout to Specs Pory which may now actually be good) and threaten them back with a TWave or Toxic. I don't think Stall will ever become meta, but I think it has some viability now.
Finally, we have "Special attackers that were previously threatened by the possibility of getting revenge-killed that are now better because two of the best revenge-killers are banned", and, in the case of Abra, of course diet-Kadabra is going to be decent. I think these are all winners of the Pika/Kad/Sun ban. In Gastly's case, Kadabra was a huge threat to it, and now it can run Sub Evio/Specs/Scarf sets in peace (and esp now that Vull is gonna be worse, that increases its stock even more). Even though Drakloak was a beige Pikachu check, its Specs set is actually viable now because Kadabra was banned and Vull is kinda bad now. Abra should be a decent Sash user because not only was its evolution banned, but now it isn't threatened by a possible FakeSpeed Pikachu. Screens are obviously going to be unviable on Morgrem because of the large increase in Gime usage, but its NP set should become a more solid option for offensive teams.
That's going to be all for now, I'll try and post some more thoughts a couple weeks into OMPL as we see where the metagame is at that point. Cheers!
New meta seems like a great time to post some thoughts.
Firstly, I really like the direction the metagame has taken, and I am enjoying building in something fresh. I think building has changed a little and that some more borderline mons have defined niches now, which is cool to have a few new tools (Vibrava, Metang, Roselia?).
I also believe it will take time for people to adapt their defensive cores, as they have all nearly been flipped on their heads, with possibly the only core that is still relevant been the golbat, marsh, ferro core. Things like spdef cors, offensive tang, vibrava or clef, Pilo, mareanie are good examples of this.
Lastly, some discussion on particular mons:
Ebuzz, probably (?) the best mon in the tier now, or if nothing else one of three S ranks along with tang and golbat. Speed, power, bulk, versatility and the lone viable electric type all make handling ebuzz paramount to team building. Personally I am fine with it, but I can see where others qualms come from and do understand. I think a ground type + soft check (roselia, clef, cors etc) is mandatory on every build. I find it also helpful to pray to your chosen god to avoid focus blast.
Gime, less splashable, less checkable, more insufferable. Looking forward at the meta, I can see a time where this tap dancing weirdo goes under the suspect lense. It’s perfect coverage, speed, ability to set up, semi decent bulk with evio all offset its weakness to rocks and somewhat reliability on prediction as clicking a mid ground play a few times generally let’s It break its own checks. With the lack of scarfers and the banished electric rat and kadabra, revenging this mon can also be problematic, with thwackey + ebuzz (free good drakloak) the most reliable way. And neither can do it easily without chip or if evio gime. There is a dearth of sucker punch users (raboot) and ginoone speed ties, so the only other common prio Users are ice shard Pilo (resisted), mach punch gurd (uncommon af, and kinda weak on most defensive sets). Definitely number 1 on my watch list
Other mons I feel have benefitted hugely from the shake up;
Thwackey, no more sun, and general trends are overly friendly to our monkee friend. Even SD acro might be good again
Wart, still a great mon, SS spin offers so much utility and in general always has a positive impact on nearly every match.
Cors-galar, more hattrem + gime/bat/boot cores means that cors is probably the most underrated rocker in the tier, capable of pressuring hattrem very well as well as doing general cors things and walling half the tier. Imo spdef with sball is now the better set, but physdef still has its merits no doubt. This things bulk is insane.
Also, bat and tang are both still insanely good and as versatile as ever.
We’re halfway through NFEPL, figured now is a good time for an NP post to wrap some things up.
The Future Sight Meta
We all saw this coming, right? Future Sight + Regenerator has dominated gen8OU for the while now, but this combo didn’t take off in NFE until specially defensive Duosion sets became meta. Duosion rose to prominence in yester-meta as it was arguably the best defensive check to Galarian Mr. Mime. Now, even after the suspect test, Future Sight sets are undeniably successful. They do a great job at checking Electabuzz, and there’s little stoping Future Sight paired with with Gurdurr / Raboot / Piloswine / Golbat / anything that can punish Psychic checks. Needless to say, not much can afford switching into say Drain Punch, Knock Off, or Flare Blitz if Future Sight follows. Roar and Whirlwind users like Piloswine and Golbat make Future Sight the KO lottery; you gotta pray nothing weak gets dragged out!
Psychic checks with Protect or Substitute became the best answer to Future Sight tactics. This way, the resistant / immune user can stall the turns out, take nothing from Future Sight, then pivot into something to take on Gurdurr and co. Duosion itself makes a good Protect user and sponges Future Sight well enough. Ferroseed naturally fits Protect thanks to its good synergy with Leech Seed. Zweilous with Substitute has being doing very well at punishing Future Sight, and even Gurdurr can’t afford the risky Zen Headbutt too many times. Substitute + Toxic Vullaby is a great way to deter Future Sight and punish most of Vullaby’s switch-ins. Lastly, other offensive Dark-types like Galarian Linoone and Morgrem could also work with Protect or Substitute, but they also work without these moves thanks to their offensive pressure.
The Rise of Thief
The “Knock Off Absorber” is a role in NFE teambuilding meant to sponge Knock Off for the rest of the team. That way, only one wall loses its Eviolite bulk while the rest of the defensive core can retain theirs. Walls like Golbat, Tangela, and Koffing usually work the best as Knock Off Absorbers because they still check Knock Off users like Gurdurr and Thwackey even after they lose their Eviolite. However, if these wall could retain Eviolite AND switch into Knock Off, wouldn’t that be even better?
That’s where Thief comes into play. Knock Off Absorbers are able to use Thief after tanking the hit and can enjoy the retained bulk the following turns. Tangela and Golbat often lure in the likes of Vullaby and Piloswine, so stealing their Eviolite on the switch in is a good combo. More so, Golbat and Koffing don’t learn Knock Off themselves, so an itemless Thief is the best way they can remove items; Corrosive Gas is just okay on Koffing. Other offensive picks like Electabuzz and Magmar can also use Thief this way to break down special walls like Duosion and Marshtomp. Covet physically defensive Clefairy is a great Gurdurr counter, and by keeping its Eviolite, Clefairy avoids the 2HKO from Piloswine. These are just some of the more popular examples, and Thief + Covet users apply to a good chunk of the viable meta if you choose to run it.
The problem with Thief, though, is that it’s inconsistent. After an item is stolen, the Thief user needs to get hit by Knock Off again for Thief to remove a second Eviolite. That is, even if the target is running Eviolite; Tangela and Golbat need to be careful not to steal a Choice Specs from offensive switch-ins like Magmar and Electabuzz, respectfully.
So while it’s not perfect, the adaptation of Thief—and to a lesser extent Covet—was a great innovation for mitigating Knock Off collateral.
Mareanie and Koffing are seeing more use, and Toxic Spikes are also performing well. It helps that hazard control like Hattrem, Gurdurr, and Wartortle are all vulnerable to it, and one of the best and common Poison-types is also part Flying. That means that Defog Golbat + Rapid Spin Wartortle, for example, wouldn’t always be the safest vs Koffing. Toxic Spikes is also a non-consequential coverage move on these too, so it’s easy to fit and use when you need to. Of course there’s a lot that deters Toxic Spikes, but it’s important to note its place in the current meta and how the hazard enables wallbreakers and sweepers.
Thats all I have for now. Stay tuned for the post-NFEPL update!
Double posting to revive the thread and comment on my favorite NFE Pokemon Tangela :) I still think the metagame is in a really good plave but if we were to suspect anything, anything at all, maybe it would be Tangela?
"Stallbreaker" Tangela of sorts is extremely rewarding and viable. Knock Off, Sludge Bomg, Sleep Powder / Stun Spore, and Leaf Storm / Giga Drain is just too good of a combo. Nothing switches into these moves without losing something. More over, and basically regardless of the EV spread, Tangela is inherently great as a wall, special attacker, defensive pivot, and all-around utility support. Forget that it can check Gurdurr, Thwackey, and Marshtomp and remember that Tangela is also a phenomenal Pokemon to use to weaken Golbat, Vullaby, Koffing, and so on. Even Electabuzz and Piloswine struggle with it. Tangela can afford to switch into Icicle Crash because of its bulk + Regenerator and its better Speed––more often than not ––compared to Piloswine.
Regenerator really needs a paragraph of its own lol. This broken ability just makes Tangela so free on a ton of plays. Its a great lead cause it can absorb most hits to help scout some sets and all the while spread Knock Off. Tangela is also a great wincon, as especially with another Regenerator Pokemon like Duosion and Mareanie, the two can just keep switching and stalling attacks. Regenerator also makes Tangela a great Knock Off absorber itself as it stops the chip damage from doing that much and a healthy Tangela is still very hard to take down, Eviolite or not. Spikes, Toxic, and Toxic Spikes all deter comparative walls like Galarian Corsola and Wartortle, but Tangela is more often than not barely bothered by these factors. Dealing with Tangela is hard enough as it is due to to its offensive pressure, so factoring in the huge depth of plays and potential with its bulk + Regenerator just excels its viability.
There's the following 4 Pokemon in S and A that are considered switch-ins to Tangela: Golbat, Ferroseed, Vullaby, and Roselia.
The Flying-types are good for walling Tangela's attacks and using it as an opportunity to use Defog. Golbat is already a decent Knock Off absorber so it works well switching into Tangela, especially if Golbat runs Thief, but Sleep Powder is annoying. Golbat asleep and without its Eviolite is a huge problem, though virtually all direct damage from Tangela is worthless. Tangela can also afford to stay in and tank a Brave Bird if it means it lands a Sleep Powder or Knock Off. This play is risky though due to Taunt and, even worse, Mean Look + Air Slash luring in and ultimately KOing Tangela. Vullaby also does well as a wall and uses Tangela to Defog. It doesn't need to worry about Sleep Powder, but Knock Off + Sludge Bomb's poison are a concern. It has a slower U-turn as well to help deal with Tangela indirectly, or it can run Brave Bird, Air Slash, or Toxic on Defog sets to deal with it head on. There's also the niche Substitute + Toxic sets that safely setup on Tangela so long as they land a Substitute before a Sludge Bomb poison. These two Flying-types are okay at checking Tangela but it's clear that status is a huge issue and they're shakey at best.
The Grass-types are a lot better as consistent counters to Tangela. Ferroseed switches into and sits on Tangela, all the while it sets Spikes. To be fair, though, a standard Ferroseed only pressures back Knock Off and Spikes while losing its Eviolite in the showdown. A Giga Drain Tangela could even potentially outstall Ferroseed, as Ferroseed's lack of recovery makes chip damage dangerous. Still though it's not likely for a Tangela to stay in for 3 layers of Spikes, and even if it did, the Ferroseed player can make an easy read on the Giga Drain spam and switch to a Fire-type or the sort. Roselia is the true Tangela counter; it walls all of its coverage, has Synthesis to combat chip damage, Spikes to punish it while it switches out, Sludge Bomb to KO it, and it can even poison Tangela passively thanks to Poison Point. That means even Knock Off––Tangela's best attack versus Roselia––is punished by Roselia. That's a killer package. So besides losing Eviolite, the Grass-types do very well as Tangela counters.
There's a few other niche examples like Eviolite Magmar, specially defensive Koffing, and Ivysaur that could be mentioned as well. Magmar can run Vital Spirit for another immunity against Tangela, and it really only worries about Sludge Bomb's poison while its healthy. Giving a switch-in to stallbreaker Magmar is also a huge problem given it has so little to deal with it, and Tangela is undeniably guilty of this. Specially defensive Koffing hates Sleep Powder and even Leaf Storm still does a huge chunk when it loses its Eviolite. Still, absorbing Knock Off and preventing Regenerator recovery is a really cool niche. Then there's Ivysaur, and outside of sun teams it basically is a stallbreaker Tangela that counters other Tangelas. Ivysaur isn't as inherently good as Tangela though so this niche is small. For those who are counting, thats about 6 switch-ins with different pros and cons.
Offensively pressuring Tangela is a little easier because of its tendency to lose its Eviolite and its poor special bulk. Fire-type wallbreakers are all the rage at the moment and Magmar, Raboot, and Lampent are tough to deal with. Future Sight is also still thee meta so Tangela needs a lot of support to make sure it doesn't fail as a wall. Wartortle easily sweeps past Tangela with a +2 Ice Beam. Gastly and Rufflet are a little niche but they too are scary offensive threats for Tangela. There's also Pokemon that "lose" to Tangela but may have an out one way or an other; Iron Fist Ice Punch Gurdurr can be tough to deal with, as could Facade Galarian Linoone and Whilrpool Galarian Corsola. Things go wrong for Tangela all the time and it's not always getting away with everything. Exploiting it offensively is a great way to deal with it and limit switch-ins.
Ok the essay is over. I just wanted to document my own rational with Tangela, as I think the counterplay is enough to keep it not ban-worthy. I do think its like S+ and the best mon in the meta though. Hopefully this rambling got that across. What do you guys think?
this thing is also a good debate but I haven't wrote it all out in my head yet. Stallbreaker sets especially, and even BD sets (f u Shing'n Streets) are becoming problematic.
hey all, just making a quick omwc teamdump. this was my first teamtour where i really built without any significant support, and it was really hard! respect to all of you who have to do that often. im a really social builder and i really like working on teams with other people, so to do this for such a big tour was really intimidating. however, im really pleased with the result. i went 3-1 (with my only loss being a close 1-0) and brought some stuff i was really happy with. onto the teams! (click on sprites for paste)
I was really nervous going into this game as I had no history playing mh, and had no idea what they would be bringing, whether it'd be a team they built or one that they picked up with someone else. This team is one stresh originally made (s/o), with a couple edits for personal taste. I really like this team just because it's incredibly consistent across almost all matchups you can face, with it having a strong hazards game and a really great breaker in Piloswine. I don't have as much to say with this team but I think it's really solid in this meta and I like it a lot.
I got the idea for this team from Shing (s/o) who recommended Mean Look Vullaby, as it's able to 1v1 really threatening Pokemon such as Piloswine and Koffing. I then built the team around that with a core that I saw in NFEPL (idr who brought it sorry) of Marshtomp/Roselia/Vullaby, with Hattrem and Gurdurr as the hazard removal and Taunt Super Fang Golbat as the main way of making progress. I thought this sort of fat build would match up well against the sort of teams I've seen from Stresh and the other NFE builders on UK, and it did. Unfortunately, I didn't play all too well, but I do really like this team. Taunt + Super Fang Golbat + hazard stack is still very effective, and I think performs well against the more offensive, less bulky builds we're seeing more.
vs King Leo V
I stole this structure from Shing ( :D ) and tailored it to my liking. This is about as offensive I think you can get in NFE without straying into cheese territory, and I thought it would match up well against the stuff Leo has brought in the past (very fat stuff). The goal is to get TSpikes up as quickly as possible, pivot around for a bit, and then go into a threatening breaker. BD Magmar, while inconsistent, is incredibly fun and I think it's very effective at mu fishing quite a few structures. Taunt Electabuzz imo is something that is very important for hazard stacking teams such as this one due to its bulk and speed, and SS Wartortle is a great offensive spinner and functions as either a mid-game wallbreaker or late-game sweeper.
I was completely out of ideas at this point, so I built basically my previous team but added a Thief Magmar, went with Specs Electabuzz > Taunt, and put Clefairy > Koffing. The idea behind Thief Magmar is that it steals the Eviolite of one of its most common switch-ins, which can be something like Duosion, Clefairy, Marshtomp, or Wartortle. Specs Electabuzz was chosen over something such as Specs Magmar due to me wanting to be different and use something I haven't used in quite some time. It's still an incredibly effective wallbreaker, and one whose effectiveness is heightened when you're able to steal an Eviolite of one of its most common switch-ins such as Clef/Duo/Marsh. The rest of the team is fairly standard, with the main tech being Wish Clefairy, which can add longevity to any member of my team in a pinch (which was actually important in my game !!!).
Not really sure where to post; hope this is a good place. I'm just wondering, is there ANYONE at all playing this metagame? I can't even find any matches to play on Showdown; I swear it's entirely dead.
Not really sure where to post; hope this is a good place. I'm just wondering, is there ANYONE at all playing this metagame? I can't even find any matches to play on Showdown; I swear it's entirely dead.
NFE is not completely dead. It has an extremely loyal but small core of players. Smogon tours are made every once in a while, with NFE also being included in a few major tournaments like the World Cup Of Other Metagames which I believe is playing out at the moment. You're right though, NFE ladder has never been particularly active, and only declined further as the playerbase got smaller. We fo also have a NFE chatroom and discord server, where generally you can find someone who's down to play.
If people gained a particular drive to suddenly play NFE, with the right management I believe it could start growing again, but as of now this is where we're at.
NFE is not completely dead. It has an extremely loyal but small core of players. Smogon tours are made every once in a while, with NFE also being included in a few major tournaments like the World Cup Of Other Metagames which I believe is playing out at the moment. You're right though, NFE ladder has never been particularly active, and only declined further as the playerbase got smaller. We fo also have a NFE chatroom and discord server, where generally you can find someone who's down to play.
If people gained a particular drive to suddenly play NFE, with the right management I believe it could start growing again, but as of now this is where we're at.
Rain Moon I suggest you join the discord and/or showdown room as Felucia suggests. You get to know the people who are active there pretty quickly and know who to ask for some matches. Also look out for a BDSP NFE unofficial tour coming soon :)
Rain Moon I suggest you join the discord and/or showdown room as Felucia suggests. You get to know the people who are active there pretty quickly and know who to ask for some matches. Also look out for a BDSP NFE unofficial tour coming soon :)
I have zero idea how it suddenly broke / why no one noticed this before... thanks for letting us know. Apparently the first part of the link was missing. https://pokepast.es/f049ffcfd43f4ad3 this should be it.
Belly Drum Magmar sets are in fact becoming problematic. Oh no! You heard it hear folks but there's a clear reason why these sets are stealing games, and it's due unpredictability. Choice Specs Magmar and Fire Spin Magmar are two sets that can blend in perfectly with a Belly Drum set, so in a tour setting, you really never know for certain. This means t1 if you go Mareanie expecting to soak up a boosted Fire Blast, you can end up losing turn one to Belly Drum. Case and point. Now I know that there are in fact some defensive switchins and offensive pressure to prevent the delimma, but none are that consistent. Supplementing Magmar with Future Sight support can also mean that Belly Drum is either a given or you get a crucial KO. Some counters like Gabite and Marshtomp also lose to Double-Edge, and Flare Blitz already does a ton regardless.
Let me know what you think. I believe taking action on Magmar will result in a healthier tier and allow us to tackle other threats if necessary.
I agree with Ho3nn/S1nn0h that Magmar due to its flexibility in sets is quite a threat right now. I have been spamming Thief Magmar to open doors for the rest of the team (Ebuzz and Tortle mainly) throughout the tour and I did not lost any game with them. BD Magmar is great too opening paths although it requires a lot of support and something to clean the mess it brings in the field, but it is a threat that is very difficult to prepare against.
I have had some fun in NFE recently (in the open reaching semis) and I just wanted to post here some of the teams I have been using for anyone and also to thanks Shing'n Streets for all the help on discussing, testing, and making good my teams that were bad. Shing is the goat of the tier (sorry frisoeva ). Anyway, let's go with the teams:
First weeks I wanted something consistent so I went with a team that Beauts built with an idea of Shing. That team is the one I have had more success with:
Main idea is to steal items with Vullaby, Clefairy, and Magmar (this is a bit unexpected) to help CSpecs Ebuzz and SS Tortle to win the game. Pilo does pilo things (rocks, hit hard, and say hello to Ebuzz).
Then, against quojova and txitxas I tried to be consistent but at the same time a bit more unique. I used the same team as before but also I went for something I have wanted to test for a while: FS Duosion. I used it in the past as DD SP so I wanted to experiment with it.
Main idea here is to stop everything with the bulk of these Pokémon and spam Knock Off and Future Sight constantly. Golbat is your main wincon as it has Taunt and Super Fang for bulky teams. Duosion has Toxic to hit Vullaby and galar-Linoone and Shadow Ball for mirror matches. Vullaby is Whirlwind because you can just get rid of the Dark-type Pokémon that tries to sponge Future Sight. Finally, Marshtomp is here for rocks and to stop Ebuzz up to heaven (Duosion can help it too). Tangela and Duo do a great Regen core tbh, keep it in mind.
Finally, for semi-finals is when I spent most of the time building in this tour and I was very happy with the results but I didn't play as good as I wanted.... sorry Shing. Gonna share a team that presents Magmar Thief ability with Duosion. This is something I haven't used in the tour scenario but it is quite good. Up to now I am not going to share the BD Magmar team I used, because maybe is gonna be used elsewhere...
So here it is the same as before but with a couple of new things: Wartortle does not run Rapid Spin but Sub to make it easier against some bulkier teams. Finally, Tangela is offensive because it helps against some match-ups and steal some surprises. Magmar can steal some Evios that are important for Wartortle afterwards (Evios from Tortle, Mareanie, Vullaby, Marshtomp, etc.).
Looks appealing on paper but Fraxure exists to entirely eclipse Dragonair as a Dragon Dance sweeper. Fraxure has more offensive stats and Speed to work with and has a deeper movepool to work with (First Impression, Superpower). The ability isn’t good in a bulky offense/balanced offense meta and it’s not that hard to wall it with Tangela/Ferroseed/Golbat/etc.
I felt like making an NFE post, not because of others, but rather because I have a lot of thoughts I want to speak out and encourage myself to post on forums despite issues that discourage me from posting more than I wanted. Those who talk to me know that I have a(unreasonable?) lot of metagame stuff I'm talking about, even if I kinda distanced myself from NFE atm. I'll post my thoughts more here than discord/ps because Discord is unreliable/really trash to get info from the newest NFE related stuff and PS is even worse as the valuable discussions disappear afterward. Anyway, this post will talk about things that happened months ago but it'll still be relevant today. As gen 9 will come out this year, I feel like this is appropriate to talk about and hopefully some changes I guess? Idk I just really want to talk my thoughts and remember them whenever I come back.
The Excellence of Magmar
I've been one of the vocal players that have spoken up about Magmar's problematic offense since OMWC. Specs set has an underwhelming amount of checks that are able to switch in, couple that with a really good speed tier. You could mention the amazing support that also kinda wraps the meta around. Hazard removal is excellent right now as Wartortle Spin + Defogger can handle most hazard interactions, and Magmar switch-ins checks are limited to mainly Wartortle because the other checks have their own difficulty to fit in teams. But still, you're still able to get stealth rocks in the mid-late game and the other checks such as Spdef Marshtomp and Gabite are still relevant enough that I don't think Magmar is unstoppable. It's still revenge killed by mons such as Electabuzz, Linoone-Galar, and Raboot, which are all common so you're able to switch in and revenge kill it. However, Magmar has another set that could handle most of Specs checks aka Belly Drum Magmar.
Basically, it's able to OHKO every switch-ins check and it has priority, which means Linoone-Galar is unable to revenge kill and having Electabuzz below 52-62% means it's not a check anymore. Raboot (and Drakloak but that mon is ass) are very much able to put an end to most Magmar sets. Yeah, most since Magmar is still able to play around them although I don't consider those options viable, I'll still mention it. BD Magmar does have its flaws although. It's not consistent against all MUs, and you'll need flare blitz to OHKO some checks which mean it'll receive heavy recoil and you could argue that the moveset is not as perfect to OHKO every defensive check (e.g Marshtomp can tank a hit with some def investment if you don't run cross chop). Still, BD Magmar is effective against relevant matchups(and screw up some playstyles), and who gives af about recoil when you're able to take 2-3 mons or the whole team lol. You can also just run fire punch if you give Magmar the right support. The defensive cores are rather tricky to discuss, but they're still less common because the meta is not nice to them.
Now the stupidest thing is that you're able to fit in BD Magmar in a regular team since BD Magmar shares similar support to Specs. So when you're pulling out Magmar early-mid game and the opponent switches in Wartortle expecting it to be specs, instead they'll see it's a BD set and then what. A lot of teams rely on Wartortle to check Magmar(and other very relevant threats) so in that position, you could either win on the spot or guarantee a kill or two at least depending on the MU. Basically, you can't predict the Magmar set and you can pull out BD at any point really. It's been times I've just pulled out really early, and even if I may have taken a few mons it can mean the end of the opposing team since my other teammates could clean it up.
Is Magmar is 100% bad for the meta? Not really. It's another special attacker that's faster than Golbat, threatens it and it's very straightforward with what it's doing really. It provides another special attacker people can use instead of having the need to use Electabuzz in every team. It does keep Duosion in check since it's one of few special attackers that Duosion can't switch in, which I like a lot. Magmar has still the weaknesses that every team that prevents it from sweeping or doesn't fit in all teams. They have very flexible sets and the support Magmar has does minimize the weakness to a significant degree, which I feel like most people don't mention enough.
Should Magmar be banned? I'd say more yes than no. I really don't like the lack of special fire resistance and how we check it. Either you're using Wartortle which doesn't have recovery or use ugly rest/talk sets aka the NFE specialty for recovery. But I also don't mind if it's in the tier despite what I've written above. IMO it's really stupid good just because the meta lets it act like that. So it's up to the suspect test/council. If it is going to be banned though, you should also ban the next pokemon that's arguable worse and also benefits from a Magmar ban.
Golbat looking pretty sus don't you think?
Golbat does more harm than being a positive influence to the meta, simply that. You can easily point out that Golbat puts a lot of restrictions on the teambuilding/playstyle since it does centralize the tier. But I would like to go into a little more detail on the effect it has caused on the tier. I believe that if Golbat is banned, then the building will feel less restricted and perhaps could make problematic mons easier to handle. I do just think Golbat has no place for NFE and seeing it leave wouldn't hurt the meta as far some people think.
The first point is that it doesn't help against the issues and instead makes them stronger by making their checks less effective and more difficult to use in the meta.
- Poor against Magmar and Electabuzz. But instead, it counters their checks such as Marshtomp and Gabite.
- It doesn't reliably check Banded Raboot in many positions where their Eviolite is gone or rocks are up in the field. It can however annoy their checks with the combination of taunt and its typing. Pokemon such as Gurdurr, Koffing, Clefairy, Corsola-g, etc. aren't able to do much against Golbat.
- Obviously, Golbat isn't built defensively to handle Duosion. However, it's the best abuse F-Sighter combined with Whirlwind due to its amazing typing gives it opportunities to pull it out even I think it's inconsistent. Though if Magmar gets banned, then this combination could be more problematic.
Those are just some examples that I wrote out. There are some more I could mention, but in the end, my point is that Golbat is one of the biggest enablers that let these mons go havoc. Another unrelated point I want to make is that Golbat is lowkey difficult to switch in since it can cripple its own checks so the best check to it is your own Golbat, which is pretty stupid if it can depend on the speed too...
Is it necessary for the tier? Arguably no IMO.
As an NFE mon, it does have some important roles such as handling against Thwackey, Gurdurr, Tangela, and Koffing, which all have been controversial at some point. But I do think most of them I mentioned above can be handled without the need of Golbat.
Thwackey can be checked by Koffing, Vullaby, Tangela, Roselia, Ferroseed etc.
Gurdurr is checked by Koffing, Clefairy, Corsola-G, Tangela etc.
Koffing is handled by grounded poison mons, Wartortle, and has different ways to be beaten.
Tangela is one whole story JFC. Golbat isn't exactly a clear counter because sleep powder is a different story of bs. Like Golbat just really want another mon to switch in Tangela bc of that stupid move alone. I'll go and talk about Tangela in the next post because I gotta talk about how dumb the counterplay Tangela is. Aside from my random rant, Roselia and Vullaby are both super common and solid against Tangela(and much better than handling it than Golbat).
I can't forget that it's the best hazard removal in the tier. But I think it's just too good. Immunity to toxic, bulk, speed and utility combined make it almost impossible for most rockers to set up rocks. Most teams are forced to run Piloswine in order to get the rocks on the field and create momentum, which creates a side effect where Electabuzz becomes much stronger, and building teams end up extremely more linear. Now it could be a double-edged sword if NFE doesn't have Golbat's valuable defog. Spikes and Piloswine could even become stronger, but then Defog Gurdurr and Hattrem could be picked up to counteract it so I think this is just up to interpretation.
Is it still necessary for the tier? I don't think so since I believe there are decent enough of different mons that can fill the roles similarly, and Golbat is ridiculous.
Side effects after Golbat's ban
I'll keep this short and simple compared to the wall of text I had above.
+ Other Ground-Mons could become more viable
+ Electabuzz and Magmar are far more manageable to check for different teams
+ More viable rocks and you may not need to rely on rest/talk for some teams.
+ Other Pokemon that were invalidated or got their viability reduced because of Golbat could have potential niches.
+ Teambuilding becomes less tightened and perhaps more loosened, even if NFE is strictly centralized.
- Fighting types could become problematic and I was wrong on that.
- Koffing could lowkey become more stupid.
- Tangela has one less important check and there are only two-three checks/counters for it again.
+/- Other pokemon could come and be Tangela's checks, but that's unlikely tbh.
+/- A new meta could be refreshing since people are tired of this meta, but it doesn't always mean it will be a better one.
I'll be honest, it's so awkward to talk to both of these mons and somehow connect one to another like that. I don't even know if it works LOL. But yeah I wanted to make this post for a while since Magmar and Golbat have both been very controversial for a while, and I just wanted to speak out my thoughts since I've been so active and I feel a little guilty for not contributing feedback to the community since I'm kind of a shut-down with my things. Anyway... My conclusion to this is that if I prefer Golbat to be banned before Magmar. I'd want to avoid having a path where there are less offensive ways to stop Golbat and let that mon and its defensive cores become too strong.
Anyway if you actually read this, I appreciate it because this may be very NFE specific and it's rather long and hard for someone that doesn't know NFE. I was going to talk more about other pokemon, but I think I'll let that be my next post (soon as someone posts after me bc double posting). As thanks, you'll get my NFE teamdump + some new ones I build not too long ago. Hopefully, I'll get rid of the small anxiety that prevents me from posting more as well writing faster so I don't get burned out. Otherwise, have a good day!
Just gonna add a quick funny story on me spamming popularizing BD Magmar. Quagg beat me too hard with BD Magmar in friendlies and I got too salty that I needed to vent my frustration. So I made my own BD Magmar teams and proceeded to spam that shit on literally every player that wanted to play NFE in the next two months. And that's how the NFE community kinda became aware of it because I may have taken too many wins and I may have made the meta worse because of it. But I've no regrets because that BD Magmar sweeping was funny as fuck that I have the replays saved. Don't blame me tho, blame on Quagg he started it
Golbat and Magmar have been quickbanned from NFE! Tagging Kris and Marty to implement. Thank you!
Both threats received above average concern for being unbalanced within the community, evident from forum posts, discord discussion, and the recent metagame survey held in the NFE channel. The council came to the consensus that we should act now with the bans and monitor the metagame as we approach OMPL. The NFE council decided it would be best to hold a vote immediately on them both rather than do a suspect test or only look at one over the other. It was a unanimous ban to remove Golbat, whereas all but xavgb and beauts (NFE's newest council member!) wanted Magmar quickbanned.
Golbat and Magmar are both behemoths in the tier, centralizing for running multiple sets with no consistent counterplay for all that they accomplish. Golbat often compressed multiple roles, with its stallbreaking sets of Taunt + Super Fang destroying most of its switch-ins. Magmar's specially offensive sets by themselves only had a few switch-ins––all of which could be circumvented through Belly Drum variants. Removing these two is a good step in the right direction for making the metagame healthier and less centralizing.
If necessary, we'll use this time + up-and-coming tour to check out other potentially dangerous aspects of the metagame that were brought up recently: Tangela, sleep, Electabuzz, ect. Let us know what you think of the bans as well as how you think the meta will shape up without these two. Cheers!
At some point before the ban I promised myself that if Golbat got banned, I’ll make a post about its side effects from individual pokemon and playstyles. As someone who was down too deep in SS NFE, I felt passionate and motivated to make one when it happened since I believed the ban would be a huge change. I did not expect Magmar to get banned at the same time and I underestimated how much of an impact the Golbat ban was in theory/my head. I should have taken at heart that “Golbat suppressed the half of the tier” was also true LOL. I would be a little afraid of actually committing to it due to burnout and giving up too early, as well as being paranoid about my English grammar.
Instead of writing about only some impactful ones that everyone knows, I doubled down and went to all the Pokemons I felt like that could have a viable niche from the bans. Not only that, but I went in hard on every playstyle I could think of, and I'll be giving out cores I personally think could be good or ones I’ve been using after the Golbat and the Magmar ban :D
I’ll admit I procrastinated a little bit since I got distracted by building new NFE teams, and I still prioritize IRL stuff before Smogon, as always. With that said, this would require 2 posts since it’s quite long. The post may be mostly my own thoughts and predictions at times, but it’s also kinda targeted at both older and new players/lurkers that may be interested in NFE. Older players that are coming back could be a little confused about how the meta is right now while new players could be overwhelmed with no head start so all I hope is that you’ll get something out of it even if this post is mostly for my own selfish purpose. I’ll obviously make a tl;dr/conclusion at the end so it’s easy to understand everything in one place.
Important note: Click the images/gifs to get a paste of each pokemon’s set. May be easier to illustrate my points and I just really felt like doing it. Sets are a bit mixed from mine, but also from some other players and a few ones taken from the Pokedex analysis.
Biggest winners from the ban
At first glance, you would think Tangela would have no drawbacks from this ban. Golbat being gone means it lost one of their best counters, and with Magmar means that there are fewer special wallbreakers to stop it, especially if you’re thinking about the lack of fast special wallbreakers. But I would say the best part is that Tangela received more partners that were hindered by Golbat and Magmar.
Marshtomp and Gabite are both decent options that were worsened by Golbat and the meta, while Mareanie and Duosion were Tangela’s most infamous partners that found its difficulty being used in the meta and they were poor checks against Magmar. However as there is a lot of positivity, there are also drawbacks that do affect Tangela’s performance in the metagame. Vullaby and Roselia became much better after the ban, especially Roselia which is Tangela’s worst matchup by far. Because of Tangela’s history of centralization in SS NFE, Tangela will have to see them most of the time no question. How it affects Tangela’s ranking in NFE is something I’m uncertain of. Because I think Roselia and Vullaby became better for other reasons, but Tangela teams are able to adapt. But If I had to decide, I think Roselia/Vullaby teams will triumph over Tangela teams in the long term. Though I would say the ban was positive for Tangela overall.
For any controversial thoughts I’ve on Tangela, I don’t like how there are so few pokemon that is able to switch in comfortably. Sleep Powder makes it more frustrating, but I don’t even think it changes the difficulty to switch in that much. Feel like this is a problem that won’t be brought up when I expect most teams to use Roselia or Vullaby on their team. Whether Sleep Powder is broken or not, I think Tangela’s pretty irritating even without it. I’m still unsure about banning Sleep or Tangela itself since I think it has an important physically defensive role for the meta.
I should mention that Ferroseed is able to switch comfortably, but compared to both of them Tangela is able to tank out the moves with ease so make sure you’ve some Pokemon that could lure toxic on it. It helps Ferroseed in the long term.
If I could describe the most dominant thing of the meta right now, it would be Spikes and the users. They are extremely relevant and everyone that doesn’t prepare against them will lose.
Roselia was already good in the pre-ban meta, but having both of them gone really solidifies Roselia not only as a staple but a very dangerous Pokemon that forces similar progression as Piloswine. There are fewer anti-hazard Pokemon that are able to switch in Roselia, but in the long term, they’re unable to switch in as they’re worn out for different factors.
Here’s some interesting calcs against the common hazard removals.
252+ SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 154-183 (41.1 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Roselia Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 223-264 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Hattrem: 117-138 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Roselia Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Hattrem: 169-199 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If Hattrem get a unlucky high roll or get poisoned by Sludge Bomb, it’s gurranteed ohko’d by Leaf Storm after bc 36.7% + 12% = 48% which is in perfect range.
252+ SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 84-100 (24.4 - 29%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO
Vullaby is the only pokemon that can consistently tank hits from Roselia and threaten it back if it has a brave bird and keeps its Eviolite. However Vullaby has always been known to be worn down, especially if it’s poisoned, so you have to prevent Vullaby from losing its Eviolite.
252+ SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vullaby: 127-150 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is nasty ass damage that would force Vullaby to recover most of the time, and a poison status makes it worse. And it’s a very exploitable position that many players can take advantage of.
Luckily a lot of Roselia teams can't fit in a pokemon that could easily lure Vullaby's Eviolite. Still, I think Roselia doesn't mind that issue too much.
Also if Vullaby doesn’t run Brave Bird, you’re not stopping Roselia from spamming Spikes so your teammates will have to deal with a spike at the field in the end regardless of any Roselia sets.
252+ SpA Roselia Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Wartortle: 312-368 (96.8 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
I'll give some mentions that there are some uncommon removers that are comfortable to switch in, and could threaten it out.
252+ SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Carkol: 41-48 (11.2 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ SpA Roselia Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Carkol: 118-139 (32.4 - 38.1%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Carkol Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 212-252 (87.9 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Roselia Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sandshrew-Alola: 83-98 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Sandshrew-Alola Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 252-306 (104.5 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Zubat: 54-64 (19 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Zubat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 170-204 (70.5 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I’ll note that those mons do struggle against a lot of other things, but it’s kinda funny to mention it. Zubat one is just really funny for me because it’s actually quite tanky against Roselia, even with Extrasensory LOL.
Roselia has a lot of varied sets that I think all of them have a use for, but my favorite would be offensive and PhysDef sets. Offensive sets put some mad pressure against hazard removal as the calc is shown above, and you have a good amount of opportunity to switch it in the field, such as against Clefairy, Koffing, Tangela, Mareanie, Vullaby w/o Brave Bird, and opposing Roselia. PhysDef is an interesting one since you’re able to punish volt-turns teams, play 1v1 on depending Gurdurr sets and act as a special sponge against Tangela and Electabuzz. I do also like that it doesn't get too bothered by Ferroseed MU, though Gyro Ball does force Roselia to burn up their Synthesis PP.
Regardless, I think Roselia is a top 3 pokemon right now, and it’s definitely a glue that fits in a lot of teams. I personally like to make cores with Clefairy, Vullaby, and Hattrem for defensive mons, and offensive mons such as Piloswine, Linoone-Galar, Thwackey, Raboot, and Electabuzz.
Though I’ll note that if the meta becomes more favored on physical offensive teams, Roselia may force itself to be restricted to some sets, which in turn could make it more manageable to handle the spikes.
Ferroseed will always be good if Roselia is in a lot of teams. As an NFE pokemon, it can definitely play well against the anti-hazard with the combination of good cores. A very infamous core is the Knock/Leed Seed Ferroseed + SR Piloswine. In the Hattrem MU, Ferroseed can get rid of Hattrem’s Eviolite, and then Hattrem will easily die to Piloswine. Ferroseed can also annoy Gurdurr with the combination of Knock Off and Leed seed. Gurdurr isn't as a clear counter as you would think. It’s basically a pokemon that forces a lot of complex mind games, so something like throwing a spike when the opposing team has a Hattrem is possible based on the situation.
Ferroseed does have its glaring flaws though. A lot of teams prepared for Ferroseed would make sure that it doesn’t receive healing by the combination of Hattrem or Clefairy cores and grass mons. Seismic Toss is a trendy move that does a lot of damage, putting it in range of getting 3hko’d. Ferroseed does also have a 4mss issue that’s annoying for some players. You would want to have an attacking move beside Knock Off, but then it becomes a conflict on what you want to remove since all of them are useful. Protect makes Ferroseed a more difficult pokemon to kill with the combination of Leed Seed. The issue is that you’re not able to threaten the opponent and it’s much easier to switch in and take advantage of that. Gyro Ball/Seed Bomb over Protect makes Leed Seed wincon weaker, but you’re not a sitting duck anymore. Though I wish you could use both of them in one move. Even if you have an attacking move there are ways to exploit each one of them. Gyro Ball is good against Roselia/Clefairy, but leaves yourself open to Sub Wartortle, while Seed Bomb makes it a good counter to wartortle but you’re unable to pressure Clefairy and Roselia. Another annoying issue I personally don’t like with Ferroseed is that it’s very awkward to build around it and it doesn’t fit in a lot of playstyles IMO. Typing is good, but I don’t see it covering a lot of mons so Ferroseed isn’t my cup of tea.
Still, Ferroseed is definitely solid and also appreciates the ban. Just accept that it’s much stronger in some playstyles and it does definitely need a good amount of support to make progress against its checks. I personally recommend using it with Piloswine most of the time, and having support from Clefairy, Vullaby, and Mareanie is good too.
Thwackey really loves the ban as Golbat and Magmar’s centralization really hindered Thwackey’s strength in the tier. Now it’s able to abuse Knock Off and pivoting to its fullest extent since there aren’t many other viable Pokemon that are able to switch in safely and outspeed it at the same time. For me, it’s the best hit-and-run pokemon as it’s able to switch in more and create momentum by forcing the opponent to respect its stab priority and pivot out most of its defensive checks with little risk. A lot of offensive and volt/turn teams would appreciate these qualities and it’s a top-tier threat that everyone has to prepare for.
The ones that got hurt the most from the ban
Electabuzz is definitely malding right now when they’ve to deal with Grass-types and Duosion being much better right now. Some teams don't even need to use Piloswine because Marshtomp and Gabite got better too. And now it lost its main switch-in so you could argue that Electabuzz doesn’t have as many comfortable switch-ins. Still, Electabuzz has that wincon factor and it’s important in the tier as there are teams that need a fast mon to revenge kill other threats. But this ban definitely nerfed Electabuzz and I don’t think it’s an S-rank pokemon anymore, especially since it can struggle against very fat teams. Still, the fact that you’ll need two Pokemon to keep an eye on it if you’re using a Piloswine team tells a lot that Electabuzz is someone you need to respect despite the nerf it received.
Piloswine doesn’t like that Gurdurr and Hattrem could be more common, but Piloswine is still the best rocker and a solid pokemon overall in NFE. For the ban though, it definitely got affected as Golbat and Magmar was one of Piloswine’s best partners in the tier and it’ll have to adapt with grass types being more common. I will say that with the Golbat ban, Choice Band with Toxic could be better and could definitely handle some team structure like Tangela teams which is very neat for me. I’m still unsure if you’ve to use High Horsepower more than Earthquake because of Thwackey’s influence overall really. Though with Vullaby and Gurdurr’s defog, perhaps Piloswine can still use EQ really.
Defensive Wartortle got worse after this ban because of grass spam and it doesn’t beat the spikers at all, which I believe will be more common. It’s not bad though because spinning + pivot is very valuable and you’re able to use it to counter SS Wartortle, though there are other options. I think Shell Smash Wartortle would be the main set right since it actually threatens Roselia and somewhat Ferroseed. Even if Duosion and Mareanie make it tougher for Wartortle, I still believe that Shell Smash set because it’s just really a strong wincon and full Sp. Atk Wartortle can be a little threatening. Sub > Spin > w/e is my order for the 4th slot. SS Wartortle with Healing Wish Hattrem does sound pretty heat core tho not gonna lie
Hazards (Stealth Rocks, Webs, and T-Spikes)
Clefairy is easily the 2nd best Rocker as Golbat was one of the main defoggers that didn’t feel threatened by Clefairy. Clefairy has a good matchup versus Vullaby and Gurdurr, and doesn’t particularly get bothered by Wartortle, although it has to respect Shell Smash Wartortle with Spin. The Hattrem MU loses 1v1 to CM Clefairy as CM has more PPs than Mystical Fire, though Hattrem does wall out non-CM Rocks Clefairy. I’m gonna talk more about Clefairy later below since it deserves its own discussion, but overall it’s a solid rocker.
Marshtomp and Gabite are definitely happy that Golbat is gone, but I can’t stop thinking that the ban may not be enough to make them good. Magmar also being gone means that they’ve less of a reason to be used as an Sp.Def check, and faces competition against Duosion. There are still some difficult matchups like against Hattrem teams which both are unable to break through alone. Still, I believe both of them have their value in the meta and there are teams that appreciate a defensive rocker that's also a volt blocker. I would use Marshtomp over Gabite for its better bulk and typing, but Gabite is good too if you want a fast rocker that could revenge kill Roselia and Lampent, so it depends on what you need. For partners, Koffing would be good for both of them so you can use toxic against Gurdurr without worrying about giving it a boost that could sweep your team. I would prefer Gabite on faster teams I guess and Marshtomp on bulkier and balanced teams.
Almost forgot Corsola-G and eh I don’t have much to talk about it. Good rocker and can beat relevant matchups like Hattrem and Gurdurr, but it is still passive and has those issues. And there are enough ways to prepare against it which usually ends up me being less attracted to using it. I’ll say though that it really liked the ban as Golbat gave it a hard time to progress and Magmar teams overwhelmed Corsola-G. Also, I think it’s one of the best physical walls and very useful against the physical offense. And sometimes it can run through teams that don't have good ways to stop Sap. I would usually prefer having Knock Off absorbers with it because I find Eviolite too valuable to lose, but it can function without Eviolite easily enough. Corsola has other sets like CM/Iron Defense that are also threatening and I like them better. The CM/Iron Defense set can be very tough to stop, especially the rest variant.
The only legitimate Suicide Leads I could think of right now are Krokorok and Drilbur atm. Both of them really like the bans since Golbat was impossible to wear down, it created a massive 4mss issue for both when you’re thinking to handle everything. Krokorok can easily set up rocks, stop defogging and force Hattrem out. Drilbur’s only difference is that it can clear out hazards while setting up rocks, and ignores Magic Bounce. I think the trickiest MU is handling the Wartortle MU, especially if it has another hazard removal. Having a spin-blocker would actually seal the deal, but the issue is most ghost Pokemon are frail and get annoyed by the defog core, and you’ve to sacrifice another mon just for that purpose. The Spinblockers I’ve used are Frillish and Lampent as they have Taunt and have other suicide moves such as Memento and Destiny Bond.
I don’t think they’re good as HO itself has always had its issue in SS NFE, but I felt like it was worth mentioning them since they were hindered a lot by Golbat.
At first glance, Koffing loves that Golbat is gone because it has an easier time spreading Toxic Spikes with no risk. Especially when you realize that every relevant defog/spinner mons are vulnerable to Toxic, so a combination of Toxic Spikes + Toxic could exist. However, Roselia and Mareanie became viable as a result of the ban which Koffing does obviously dislike. While I think Koffing is a good physically defensive Pokemon being able to switch in against Raboot, Thwackey, and Gurdurr, the Toxic Spikes Wincon are severely weakened by Roselia and Mareanie, which I believe both are going to be common in the meta. So T-Spikes Koffing teams may be inconsistent as it was in the previous meta, which I would argue it’s worse. I do think a non-toxic spikes Koffing set could exist as Koffing has a great niche over most other PhysDef mons so I hope people try to experiment with Koffing in the future. I like it a lot despite its inconsistencies in matchups at times.
(Yes this was worth it lol)
Charjabug does definitely appreciate the Golbat ban since it kinda gave Charjabug a headache and created somewhat of a 4mss problem. Now it has only one set and that’s all it really needs to combat the hazard control. It’s easily the best Sticky Web user due to its bulk, decent power and utility make it a pokemon that can function in the meta besides being only good at setting up webs. Charjabug can handle all the common anti-hazards at the same time in theory.
Wartortle and Vullaby lose to Toxic, Hattrem gets threatened by X-Scissor with some Atk Evs and Gurdurr can get worn down. Charjabug being slower means it can force a sticky web on the opposing field if they’re trying to spam defog/spin at the last opportunity. Some flaws are that teams are able to run double removal, which makes it infinitely more annoying. Thankfully Charjabug’s great bulk and pivoting can play around those situations. Still, I don't think Charjabug teams will be powerful not because of Charjabug itself, but perhaps more the teammates and the meta itself may be too fat with many ways to stop it. I’ll explain it more below in the Sticky Web section since it fits much easier there.
Hazard removal/Control (Defog and Magic Bounce)
Vullaby is probably the most important defogger in the tier as it’s able to remove spikes while forcing Roselia out if it runs brave bird. Though you would use Vullaby for other reasons such as you’ll need something to switch in against Tangela, have f-sight immunity, and being a great slow pivot for wallbreakers and volt/turn teams at the same time. Basically, it’s one of the most important glue mon in the tier, which is why it’s a target to everyone. It’s not able to remove hazards with the sheer amount of pressure it’ll receive in the long term, especially alone. So IMO having another hazard removal with Vullaby is ideal.
Gurdurr appreciates Golbat is banned as not only did it counter Gurdurr, but it centralized the meta where Gurdurr struggled to fit in. Gurdurr can act as a physically defensive defogger as it’s able to switch in Piloswine, Marshtomp and Gabite. As for the meta itself, it’s a good check to physical wallbreakers and makes toxic spamming less appealing. Now defog does have its own flaws though, such as a poor MU against SR Clefairy, Koffing and has some inconsistency against the spikes as Gurdurr can’t directly switch in against them, and 4mss is noticeable here imo. So Gurdurr does appreciate another anti hazard mon. I prefer Gurdurr much better as a sweeper as Gurdurr is deadlier right now and could 6-0 a team once their check is weakened.
(I found the perfect opportunity and took it )
I think it’s still inconsistent at blocking hazards in the long term. Like it’s good at keeping away hazards, but eventually, some sets + cores will crack it through. For example...
- Offensive Roselia with Sludge Bomb & a lucky Poison puts it in 2HKO range at Leaf Storm.
- Piloswine can fish for flinches, and even has Ferroseed to make it tricky for Hattrem to switch in due to Knock Off.
- Loses to Clefairy with Stealth Rock and CM since it stalls out mystical fire PPs as setup bait.
- Corsola-G beats it simply by Whirlpool and Night Shade combo.
Obviously, you can minimize it by adding support with another hazard remover, but you’ll have to accept that you aren’t able to cover every MU.
Hattrem + Gurdurr is not perfect against offensive Roselia and loses to SR+CM Clefairy.
Hattrem + Vullaby has its fair share of issues against Ferroseed and Piloswine.
Hattrem + Wartortle is annoyed by Ferroseed. They can also lose against Roselia and SR+Clefairy if Wartortle is defensive. I would say SS spin Wartortle + Hattrem is good, but longevity is kinda susceptible. Though you could argue the same thing on the mons above. I do feel like Hattrem is more passive in comparison. Especially when there are some mons that could take advantage of Hattrem such as Vullaby and Duosion for example. At that point, I’m feeling that having more support so Hattrem can consistently outwall is kinda wack. I’ll say that the Rest/Talk dominates teams that use Gabite/Marshtomp as their rocker.
Hattrem ain’t bad though. I’m just very much against the Rest/Talk set for numerous reasons. I prefer the 3 Atk + utility move cause it doesn’t feel as passive and some teams appreciate those. But yeah, I feel like Hattrem will have those same issues and it feels it relies on the meta letting it be consistent or not.
Raboot didn’t really mind the ban. It was already very solid in Pre-Ban, but Magmar was just used more than Raboot because it had fewer switch-ins and could break some important things that Raboot couldn’t do. Raboot doesn’t like that it has to deal with more checks, but at the same time it’s much easier to pivot around and it doesn’t have any competition as a fast offensive fire type. So it’ll still be a common top-tier threat in my opinion. Choice Band Raboot is still the best set, but it can be a little tougher to use as it’s not easy to keep out the rocks. Heavy Duty Boots are a good option for hazard-stacked teams and those that have a weak hazard removal. Sub Acrobatics can definitely work as Golbat was the main reason why it became irrelevant though that needs quite a lot of support. Overall expect Raboot to be a top-tier threat as usual.
Fraxure looks better as it doesn’t have to worry about Golbat anymore. However there are more physical tanks and walls that could stop Fraxure, and Fraxure does not have the best bulk and its typing is very exploited. I do think Sword Dance Fraxure makes an excellent endgame sweeper, even if setting up SD isn’t so easy. CB Fraxure also exists, but may not be as effective compared to the SD set since there are more defensive tanks and cores that make it less consistent. I’ll admit that Fraxure is something I’m unsure about since it largely depends on the meta if it can work or not, so take this with caution.
What differs from Fraxure to Hakamo-O is the combination of typing, base stats, and the ability that gives it some key important defensive attributes that only a few could dream of.
What I love about it is that it’s one of few that’s able to substitute and set up on Tangela because Bulletproof blocks Sludge Bomb, and with the combination with that and Drain Punch it can be very deadly as a set sweeper. It absolutely appreciates the ban since Golbat actually countered Hakamo-O by just existing LOL. Now I don’t think Hakamo-O is as good as a lot of A ranks and it may not do well against sudden matchups, but it has a very unique and valuable niche that gives it multiple opportunities to set up so Hakamo-O is definitely usable right now.
I don’t think Combusken was in a meta where Golbat was banned, so I felt like pointing that one out. Combusken doesn’t feel that much better since the meta is still fat af which also can handle Combusken. But it did like that Golbat is gone and it has its unique compared to the other fire types. I’m unsure if I would think if this pokemon would be viable or not, but it has some sets like Sword Dance and Sub that can work I guess. You'll just need to have good support with it, and if you get to pull the setup out, then it's pretty difficult to stop it.
If I would ever use Machoke over Gurdurr, it would be that it’s arguably a better wallbreaker with better coverage, stronger base power moves, and a slightly faster base speed. Some people would like it for Dynamic Punch cheesing, although I personally don’t like it unless Koffing becomes irrelevant enough. Machoke’s role is a fast balance breaker because it can destroy balanced teams that rely on Clefairy as their fighting physical check. Basically anti-meta pick at that point. Fast fighting types in concept are not easy to switch in, especially those that cover multiple things at the same time. While the usual reason Machoke wasn't so common was mainly that Gurdurr outclassed it at almost everything, Golbat did make it worse from its centralization and put many limitations on Machoke. Something like Sub or Toxic Machoke doesn’t work anymore because Golbat goes through Sub and immunity to toxic. Machoke does definitely like the ban, though I don’t know if it’ll be used as much. It’s still not as good against like Tang and Koffing teams and Gurdurr is still preferred for most teams. Otherwise, it can be a deadly counterpick against some teams, and I think that’s what it’s best for.
I’m going to specifically talk about Substitute Rufflet since I believe the ban made it better, and it could be a dangerous threat. Tl;dr for people that don't know, the strategy is to set up behind Substitute on those that can’t break sub and will win by cleaning up with the Bulk Up boost. The setup is a strong endgame sweeper and sometimes it’s able to win against some playstyles straight up. Flying-type Offense is also very rare to be seen in NFE, so people don't usually cover for it. Though Electabuzz and Piloswine keep flying types in check while Electabuzz is technically a flying resist... oops my b.
Why I think it appreciates the ban is because some of the important partners were hindered by Golbat’s centralization and the pokemon itself. Without Golbat, Screen users such as Morgrem can work more consistently, and Electabuzz isn’t as mandatory to be used in every team since Golbat doesn’t exist and Electabuzz checks could be more viable, as a side effect makes people use Electabuzz less. That’s just me theorizing and predicting through so I may not be right. Like Rufflet is extremely difficult to build around, and the teams may be overwhelmed by faster playstyles, that they aren’t able to keep rocks off or Electabuzz could be common and I was wrong. Regardless I think Rufflet deserves to be mentioned since it was affected by the Golbat ban in a positive way.
I don’t think that Magmar being banned was the reason why it got better. Instead, it was more of Golbat's centralization that made it difficult to be used, and also Golbat’s sheer speed and bulk could check Lampent. I don’t think Lampent could do the same effect as Magmar did, but it’s still a solid special attacker in its own right. There aren’t that many pokemon that could switch in safely because of its insane coverage. Their typing and ability can prevent Raboot from being trigger-happy to spam HJK and Flare Blitz.
The issue though is that it’s too slow which was one of the key factors on why Magmar was amazing. Being unable to revenge kill Thwackey is a huge flaw IMO. You can use Scarf, but Ithat makes Lampent less threatening as you're limited to one move and can't use your coverage. Lampent has somewhat a small 4mss against Mareanie or Marshtomp core with Vullaby MU since it can’t cover both water mons at the same time. I could also mention faster teams could really frustrate Lampent as it gives fewer opportunities to set up, but overall I would say Lampent is a viable pokemon that could be used against enough matchups.
Morgrem is an interesting special attacker because it can act as a Nasty Plot sweeper against some teams. And come to think of it, I don’t think there is any pokemon that could actually switch in Morgrem’s coverage. Sadly the issue behind the NP set is Morgrem itself. It has a lackluster bulk(65/45/55) which means it can’t take more than a hit, and 75 base Sp.Atk is just not powerful enough so Pokemon with good bulk such as Piloswine can switch in easily and kill it before it’ll hit back.
I do prefer much instead of using its utility set such as screens. Morgrem is very much happy with Golbat gone as the issue against Golbat is that Morgrem got a big strong 4mss syndrome where it just couldn’t stop defog from Golbat or Vullaby at the same set. Now Morgrem can just easily fit in the right moves like Screens/Fairy Attack/Taunt or Thunder Wave. A funny thing to notice is that since Golbat is banned, Morgrem is faster than almost all defoggers, so utilizing Pickpocket over Prankster is an option if you want to act as a knock absorber, and doesn't mind losing Light Clay. I don’t know how I feel about screens in general, since while you’re able to set up screens for free the chances you’ll pull it out is once and then there is the playstyle HO. Tl;dr Hyper Offense has been underdeveloped since it had a bad reputation as NFE is very fat and unforgiving giving out free turns. Regardless, Screens Morgrem can exist and it’s happy that Golbat is banned.
Mareanie can finally fit in the meta after suffering from the power creep period that was the DLC “Crown Tundra”. Mareanie has now an easier time checking Fire Types and Shell Smash Wartortle, which is valuable for balance teams. It’s also another t-spikes user and absorber which is nice although the typing leaves it weak to Piloswine and Future Sight. Would I say it’s good? I’m not sure as it doesn’t like that grass types became more dominant and it’s easily worn down by Spikes. It does its job checking things well at a consistent performance and I’m all happy enough for that.
Mareanie is probably best as mixed since it would need to tank both physical and special attacks to handle the checks consistently. The mixed bulk can be overwhelmed rather easily and going for full PhysDef or SpDef is what makes Mareanie a great wall. As again though, it depends on your team and the mixed is the most common set I’ve seen.
It loved that Magmar was gone as it was overwhelmed by it. It did not however like losing Golbat as it loved the centralization it offered, plus it was one of Duosion’s best partners. It’s hard to pinpoint how good it is, but it’s definitely one of the best SpDef tanks that respond well against such as Electabuzz, Shell Smash Wartortle, Roselia, Hattrem, etc. People have to still prepare against Future Sight. However the Golbat ban enabled a lot of more physical threats and made hazards much stronger. Duosion’s biggest issues are that it’s very vulnerable to hazards, status, Knock Off and its bulk only allows it to tank one base stat. Even if it was PhysDef, it wouldn’t match up well against the top physical attackers. At first hand, it can take special hits and easily set up Future Sight, but then it doesn’t like switching in almost everything else and some matchup could make it impossible for Duosion. That is why I’m not gonna judge Duosion yet, and I’ll let the other players do it for me.
Slowpoke’s niche is that it has Teleport and Regenerator with good physical bulk. Basically, it’s one of few switch-ins to Ferroseed and you can gain free momentum from it by teleporting on Ferroseed. Of course, you can use this against other relevant ones such as Piloswine and Raboot. It is annoyed by Spikes and the amount of grass mons, however. But otherwise, it can do work.
Why Clefairy is the perfect glue mon
I praised it above for being an amazing rocker, but I needed to talk more about this amazing pink bubble in its own category. Clefairy is simply the glue in NFE, and I find it so easy to fit into teams, especially at the last moment. It has literally almost everything that a lot of teams need to fill in those sour spots against some matchups and interactions.
It has amazing typing, an ability that ignores hazard damage and status, a versatile movepool, the bulk to tank both special and physical hits, and the most important one is checking some pokemon that could be rather difficult to switch in. This was shown very well at Golbat/Magmar meta and I’m sure it’ll do the same thing here.
Here’s how I end up adding Clefairy by just instinctively thinking when I’m building NFE teams.
- I am weak to Toxic Electabuzz and in need of something to cover against Gurdurr, Fraxure, Hakamo-O, etc. at the same time? Slap a mixed Clefairy set and it’ll be good enough, especially in Piloswine teams.
- My team looks vulnerable to Leed Seed Ferroseed? Slap a Clefairy with Seismic Toss and you're good.
- My team looks vulnerable to Knock Off from Gurdurr, Ferroseed, and Vullaby? Slap the Clefairy with Trick/Covet and you have a chance to steal the opponent’s Eviolite and keep your own Clefairy bulky.
- I need a pokemon that can switch in without being bothered too hard by hazards, while checking those pokemon I mentioned above? Clefairy easily does that.
The best part is that when I thought of those moments, I only needed 3 moves for them. The 4th slot is very dependent on how your team is structured. IMO there’s no clear answer, and it’s up to how it will benefit your team. It can be something that you want to use Clefairy to support your members or some Clefairy switch-ins you would want to cripple so it helps your other members to abuse it. The answer is endless just like Clefairy’s unlimited utility and it’s up to you to find the best one.
And that’s not the end of it. Clefairy has other great sets such as Wish Support, Calm Mind, and Cosmic Power set so it can also act as a scary endgame sweeper. I hope you understand my point is that Clefairy is extremely easy to fit in various teams and playstyles, and can make a team much better, especially the viable sets it has right now.
I’ll say that Clefairy does have its fair share of flaws. While it is bulky, it can easily be overwhelmed especially if you're going to focus on mixed sets despite that Trick does help a lot. So while you’re able to handle Gurdurr and Electabuzz at ease, I wouldn’t use Clefairy as Piloswine or Lampent switch in, and definitely not most choice locked mons.
Another weakness is that Clefairy doesn’t really threaten and you can easily react against most sets in the same way. Although what makes Clefairy tricky is that Trick can steal another Pokemon’s item, which does put some pressure on what Pokemon you want to switch in or you’re forced to play 1v1 against Clefairy. And Clefairy can be bad if the power creep makes it difficult for Clefairy to switch in. But right now I don’t think a lot of teams can sacrifice their coverage to just handle Clefairy because they need it for something else and the power creep is much less extreme compared to the past meta, so Clefairy has it good.
I should have mentioned it earlier but Clefairy does have a double-edged sword from the ban. Golbat being out means it became a better stealth rocker as I mentioned before, and Magmar being gone means that special attack power creep has been decreased which it obviously likes. But Roselia, Thwackey, and Tangela being better is something Clefairy doesn’t clearly like, and physical offensive teams could easily overwhelm Clefairy which is a strong flaw IMO. Still, it does appreciate that Gurdurr and Ferroseed are more common and I think Clefairy will adapt to it as long the power creep doesn’t go out of hand.
Part 2 aka playstyles and everything else will be in the next post, and soon it will be that. I'll take some time before I'll paste things around and fix my grammar.
Discussing Playstyles and my opinion of them after the ban
Hazard-Stacking + Teammates
Hazard Stacking is arguably the strongest playstyle in my eyes. They’ve many good ways to overwhelm the anti-hazard cores and the hazards do significantly affect all matchups. The spikes users such as and are great, while the Stealth Rocker synergy is endless. The best ones are although and have their own uniqueness. Toxic Spikes are weaker because I believe more teams will run a grounded poison mon, but they’ve their places against teams that don't have that covered. and are both great t-spikes users capable to annoy hazard removals, especially Koffing in this case since nothing really stops it from throwing it. Hazard Stacking is definitely versatile in many other playstyles, but the offensive usually abuses it better than defensive ones.
I don’t think VoltTurn teams/cores will ever be bad lol. It’s just so many good ass pivots in this game and even if you didn’t intend to have a pivot-focused team, there are multiple teams that will have more than one pivot just because it’s just essential in the pokemon's kit. The Golbat ban did make some pivots much better, but it did also enable other pokemon that could handle the VoltTurn strategy. There are enough fat pokemon such as Clefairy, Roselia, Gurdurr, Corsola-Galar, Mareanie, Tangela, etc. that could tank the next pokemon after a U-turn. There are also ground mons that can block Volt Switch and all of them don't feel like they would be fodder to the next pokemon. Besides when you’ll see that strategy work is at the late game or somehow you don’t have a ground type. Volt-turn teams are usually vulnerable to hazards, and typically frail that most of them don't like switching in. Whether or not after the ban, I think VoltTurn is very solid and will continue to be solid for the rest of SS NFE.
There’s too many pivots to point out, so I’ll go with the easiest ones as quickly as possible.
and are the most useful pivots since they’re able to switch in against multiple pokemon due to their amazing defensive capability. They can either force the opponent out or get a free slow pivot. and are both terrifying for their cleaning ability and have excellent synergy with other pivots or wall breakers overall. Other solid pivots would be for F-Sight immunity, fast speed to revenge kill and weakening the opponent’s attack stats. is an amazing spinner with an amazing defensive typing that Vullaby couldn’t switch into. And teleport mons such as have their own merits.
Support that VoltTurn teams appreciate are volt blockers and rocks, so typically Piloswine + / / does the job and hazard removal such as are excellent for removing rocks in the field.
The reason why I made it in its own section is that VoltTurn is rather more complex to talk about compared to others and I had a lot to tell which is why it deserved its own section. It’s a playstyle, but it can also be a part of another playstyle and I don’t think it deserves to be defined as a part of Offense, Balance, or Defensive since it can function in all of them. Something like VoltTurn can exist on its own, but something like Volt-Turn Hazard Stack Balance could also work so yeah. I don’t think I really needed to write this paragraph to people, but eh I did want to tell why this had its own section.
They’re extremely good right now and there’s so much to do with it. The power creep from the special side has gone down thanks to the Magmar ban and no Golbat means it’s much easier to make progress. Why I mentioned Magmar is because Special Offense has fewer bulky defensive tanks compared to Physical Offense which makes it extremely difficult for BO to fit in that team. For Golbat, a lot of teammates were restricted because they couldn't break Golbat. I would say the combination of these two kinda made it difficult to build BO if they were forced to play the long game or get easily cleaned by Magmar. Now I can definitely see it challenging hazard stacking as the best playstyle.
I would usually see in a lot of teams due to their strengths coupled with good bulk. The defensive supporters would likely be because their defensive attributes can create stronger defensive synergy and then hurt back, or they’re able to check some difficult mons and gain momentum from them. Obviously, you’ll need wallbreakers, and the most common one would be since it is fast and powerful with amazing coverage which can be difficult to check. There are some other wallbreakers such as that could fit in.
Hyper Offense is probably still a matchup fish and needs more development before I would personally use it myself in a tournament setting. Despite the bans do help it immensely, there are more things that make it difficult to perform consistently. The tier is still very fat and they are a lot of anti-HO things that could just destroy progressions at any point. At best I think offenses with multiple setups are possible, just not straightforward as HO. Still, it’s fun to talk about it once a while and I’m gonna go through quickly what could “work” per se.
While I don’t think Sticky Web teams are mainly HO, I do think it’s the most consistent HO style out of anything else because with support can deal every hazard removal.
I guess my issue is that I don’t quite like the teammates because I always end up wanting two other support while having to rely on 3 offensive mons to clean up the team. There are just those annoying holes that could really destroy my structure and I don’t like losing to them.
Can be a personal problem since I have a very stubborn mindset wanting to check everything and I don’t like building teams for the sake of MU fishing. But they’re noticeable in many teams that it does feel like the matchup is truly impossible to win against. But otherwise, I would love to see how people will use webs as a whole. There are other webs that could have potential such as endeavor Swirlix or Cutiefly even, but 99% of the time Charjabug is easily the superior choice.
Sticky web would usually like another defensive support that could switch in against Guts Gurdurr and handle Volt-Turn playstyles. is one of the best partners IMO because it does perform well against the defog sets, and can somewhat take hits from volt/turns. It can also act as a rocker and with CM it can force defoggers out pretty easily, but I would prefer another rocker because Clefairy would be overwhelmed handling all of them at the same time. is an excellent defensive and offensive synergy with Clefairy and Charjabug appreciates a powerful wallbreaker.
There are many other wallbreakers such as Flame Orb / that appreciates it webs. A key point is that you would want the breakers to be faster than 226 since that's the speed drop Electabuzz will end up at.
I do think is kinda mandatory for teams; it can sweep while providing hazard removal without getting rid of your own hazards. Lampent has also a unique niche of spinblocking, and got some useful resistances against Raboot and priority moves, though it’s not mandatory to use it.
There are some threats that just hinder the progression no matter what. Taunt Electabuzz can play mind games and make it awkward for us, and Sleep Powder Tangela/Roselia is just straight-up bullshit matchups that sticky web teams haven't enough resources to cover in terms of interactions. While Electabuzz is very doable and it’s possible to win against Sleep Powder Tang/Rose, they will slow down the progress and web teams are forced to play their game before their own.
Screens could be very underrated right now IMO. Morgrem can set up on defoggers pretty freely and there are multiple set uppers that appreciate it. The issue is that you’ll most likely be able to set up only once and there’s so much fat and anti-meta that slows it down after the screens. Maybe setting up in mid-game in some specific position would work. But yeah Screens doesn’t need to be only HO, it was just easy to think of Screens as a part of HO. It’ll take a lot of meta-knowledge and understanding of interactions to make it work, which I don’t believe I have yet IMO. I should mention that can be a screener since it’s the fastest Pokemon in the tier and has access to taunting and pivoting, which is valuable on its own I would say.
I don’t know if Screens needs a rocker, but Krokorok is probably the best with one as it can keep the screens up via taunt. There is however a good amount of pokemon that can utilize screens.
Substitute mons such as would love it, and just raw ones such as could appreciate it as well. Building one is something I’m pretty bad at as there was little reason for me to build one. The last time I saw anyone talking about screens was 2 years ago when Ktütverde, Greybaum, and Jett built a screen team with the devil sub Rufflet set so yeah it’s a rare archetype for me. So yeah screens are highly underdeveloped and could potentially have a place in the meta.
NFE Sun is basically always Hyper Offense. With Golbat gone can Sun be good again? as a Sun mon is ridiculously strong and it’s difficult to stop it once it gets a setup. And I believe that Ivysaur has a good amount of opportunities to do so. There are also some great sun sweepers such as that pair well with Ivysaur. And Sun has many other sun setups such as and something like could perhaps work? While they can’t even compare to Vulpix, they’re noticeable enough that they can set up Sun for free and have some other useful utility. I think Sun can be deadly if you’re using it as a counter team because Sun is not easy to cover for many teams. It’s basically matchup fishing, but a very difficult matchup to prepare otherwise. I could also see Ivysaur potentially becoming too good if Sun is strong due to being difficult to stop, and Ivysaur has a 4th slot strength where it’s able to take care of the opposing check such as Sleep Powder, Synthesis, or another attacking move. Sun could suck too so let’s not get ahead and decide it quickly, although I think it’s good because of ct factor alone. Sun is definitely something people should look closely at in my opinion.
Balance + Tips for newer NFE players, or those who want to know NFE building overall
I don’t think balance changed that much really. It was pretty good in the Golbat/Magmar meta and I would believe it’s still good here. You’re still able to check a lot of things with solid cores such as:
+ + +
/ + + +
+ + / +
+ + +
Which I have been labbing atm (though take a grain of salt as the meta goes on).
Though I do think it should be aware that Offense is much better right now and they could potentially be overwhelmed by it again. The balance does benefit from the little decrease of power creep and balance can be a little more versatile where it doesn’t have to be restricted by Golbat. I think balance is best combined with Hazard Stacking and Volt-Turn, but pure balance can work on its own really.
Besides what I mentioned above, I think the combination can be endless not gonna lie so I’m not gonna write the support mons. I’ll rather give some tips on what balance teams need to be aware of. You’ll need to have the ones that can deal with Raboot, Electabuzz, Gurdurr, Piloswine, and Shell Smash Wartortle as they’re able to clean up your team without any question. Make sure your team can switch in against Tangela and Ferroseed. Don’t be losing to Toxic Spikes and have some solid hazard control, and have some decent speed control and you’ll be good. Basically, it’s just basic knowledge when you’re starting to build nfe lol… Sorry for wasting time for those that know this one already, but hopefully it will be useful to people that don't know NFE or are lurking lol.
I think “pure” defensive teams are still bad as hell, and it will stay that way. Stall is mad ass and always will be in NFE, and it won’t be good even today. Tangela-Mareanie teams are the only good defensive teams I could see work but otherwise meh.
The closest thing I would say that’s the best defensive playstyle would be balance since you’re able to check a lot of things while being able to threaten and add pressure. Otherwise, there isn't much else that’s worth talking about.
The TL;DR's and Conclusion.
- Grass types are the biggest winners from this ban.
Tangela is controversial since it lost its best threats, and there are only so few that could switch into Sleep Powder. However, the thought may not be mentioned as much if Roselia/Vullaby becomes so common. Still, Tangela's restriction does affect team building in a bad way. I personally would ban Sleep Powder, but I can see Tangela could leave really.
- Electabuzz, Wartortle, and Piloswine are the biggest losers right now since their checks that were hindered by Golbat/Magmar’s centralization are more relevant than they could be. All of them are good, but probably not S Rank worthy anymore.
- Hazards are much stronger right now while hazard control has been severely nerfed. Teams such as Hazard Stacking are more versatile than ever while anti-hazard mons are easily getting overwhelmed since Hazard mons are able to check every single hazard removal while it’s not the same thing versa. Hazard removal is also slightly nerfed in terms of speed because none of them can really compare to the speed Golbat provided, which is a noticeable issue IMO.
- Physical Offense is so much better right now. There are many different wallbreakers with different purposes that could exist. Something I would love to experiment with more in the future.
- At the same time Physically Defensive mons like Corsola-Galar, Clefairy, Koffing, Gurdurr, Tangela, etc are much better right now. I personally like it since physical walls give you more different options to handle physical offense compared to its counterpart.
- Special Offense is less powerful and it’s far easier to handle it. While I don’t like that it’s fewer special attackers, I don’t mind it too hard since SpDef Walls tend to be very one-dimensional and kinda feels limited since there aren’t dedicated mons handling special attackers IMO. NFE issues do be like that.
- Duosion Future Sight may actually be usable again since there are relevant mons that it could easily switch in. But I’m actually unsure if it’s actually good. Duosion is heavily dictated by how the meta works and it could suffer the same issues it had in the pre-ban meta. So IDK, just be aware that this won't go away.
- Clefairy is amazing; practically the perfect glue mon in my eyes.
- Hazard-Stacked and Bulky Offense looks really good right now. VoltTurn and Balance teams are also solid too. Hyper Offense has a lot of more varied stuff going on, though I do feel like they’re too fishy for my taste. Webs and Screens could be explored perhaps. Pure defensive playstyles are not favored, and stall is ass like always.
How do I feel about the meta after the ban a week ago?
I feel like the meta is still very fat, but there are a ton of ways to break the fat stuff, and as well goes the same thing around. There are some things I do worry about like if Spikes are overwhelmingly too good and there’s probably some hidden broken stuff(Rufflet and Ivysaur perhaps?) that I don’t know. There’s also something that I feel weird about like speed control feels both slow and fast at the same time. Like what a fast pokemon right now feels like isn’t comparable in Golbat/Magmar era. Can’t explain it properly but it would be that speed isn’t as restricting I guess?? Maybe one of Golbat’s centralizations really changed how I viewed what’s fast or not.
If I were to describe the meta in the most NFE language, it feels like we’re back at square 1 during the DLC Isle of Armor period, after the Pika-ban. Except Vulpix was banned while Ivysaur is unbanned, Kadabra is banned while Rufflet and Gurdurr are freed up. And then you can just implement the mons that weren't banned from Crown Tundra in here. Meta is still completely different from DLC1, but I feel like the power scaling and centralization are similar in my mind despite the add-ins.
Anyway, I’m just really glad Golbat got banned overall. For better or worse, I don’t care though I personally think it’s a positive one despite being a little late. Something new happened and I only want SS NFE to end up on a good note before gen 9 comes out. I find SS NFE genuinely fun and I don’t regret playing this tier at all. Also very much appreciate the NFE community for giving me a hell of a reason to stay in Smogon longer than I expected tbh.
Here are just some cool cores I want to share. Some are those I made on my own, but most of them are inspired by past meta.
This core was shown quite often from OMWC and NFE Open 2022 with the teams taken from Stresh and Beauts I think?. This core was pretty fun and solid, perhaps even stronger now? CB Piloswine doesn’t have the most comfortable switch-ins, and those who can switch get annoyed by Toxic(Tangela, Wartortle, and Corsola-Galar). Clefairy is an excellent partner by being another rocker while switching in against numerous CB Pilo checks such as Gurdurr, Corsola-Galar, Non-SS Wartortle, and some Ferroseed sets. CM Moonblast makes it a threatening sweeper which is able to threaten every anti-hazard mons, but Seismic Toss + Trick is solid if you want the Clefairy to be a supporter. The partners I would try with CM Clef would be a combination of Vullaby + Ferroseed, while Seis Clef could be combined with Offensive Roselia. Usually having a Vullaby on the third partner is the easiest pick because of the Tangela and Roselia MU.
A very classic core that I enjoyed using after NFEPL IV even if I left (LUL) Smogon, and I wonder if it could work right now. Basically, Thwackey’s ability activates Grassy Terrain, and in turn activates Raboot’s Item, giving a slight +Def boost and 110 Stab Flying capable of destroying its checks. Corsola-Galar was so common that you could easily compare the usage to Golbat/Piloswine/Wartortle today.
So the strategy was that Raboot could Sub on Cors-G, changing its type normal so Cors-G was unable to break the Sub. Work Up was the free setup Corsola-G, but Bulk Up was solid because you could cover more matchups. It worked on those that had only Knock Off as their attacking move, such as Ferroseed, Mareanie, Vullaby(u-turn doesn’t really matter), etc. High Jump Kick made a terrifying combination with Acrobatics as nothing resisted these two combinations. However it worked very well in that meta because there didn’t exist an Ebuzz at that time, so Sucker Punch is probably a better option as the Flying/Dark combo doesn’t have much resistance themself and revenge killing Electabuzz is valuable. Pretty much took that one after I saw Ho3n using it. Thwackey’s set is a little bulkier and fast enough to outspeed Adamant Fraxure. SD can work, but I would prefer taunt as it helps BU Raboot much more to set up.
The core created one of my favorite teams I made in SS NFE.
Here’s a funny story to those that actually opened this: The inspiration from the core was from Stresh’s post back in 2020. At that time I left Smogon completely after NFEPL IV(still not “back” kek). However, NFE got a grip on my brain that I could not stop building NFE teams because I had too many ideas I wanted to process. Admittedly it was pretty unhealthy that I couldn’t get rid of it for the whole of 2021, though I think it calmed down pretty hard by the end of 2021 and early 2022. It does happen today, but not to an extent as before so I’m fine.
Anyway because of that and the combination of the pandemic increased, I kinda went to play on ladder and room tours by hiding on my alts while talking to Tack just about NFE stuff. I didn’t want anyone to know that it was me, plus it was a good time for me to do some trolling. Ended up ruining a lot of people’s reqs, and had a whooping 9-0 record at one of the months while using the core. Really wished Stresh joined one room tour so I could get one win and retire myself from the tier. Sadly this mf never joined one room tour and I did not win a game from him in anything since NFEPL IV bruh cmon man(The lore doesn’t stop only at NFE FYI).
Once I came back to the NFE Discord Server, some people were surprised but those who had seen the names kinda knew it was me. Kinda salty because I tried to act very differently, but at least I got something out of lol. Jett’s still a snake for telling even if it's a reasonable one >:(
Charjabug has a very nice synergy with Clefairy and Piloswine. It can act as another Sp.Def wall, which can sometimes clutch against Wartortle and Electabuzz though the main reason is to tank hits from Hattrem. Clef checks Gurdurr and threatens it out, plus with Knock and CM it becomes another sweeper which web teams appreciate. Clef+Charjabug both compliment Piloswine for adding more pressure against Hattrem and don’t let Gurdurr receive much health from Drain Punch, and Piloswine also acts as a volt blocker. Toxic can be an option against Wartortle teams with Wish Clefairy, but otherwise, Ice Shard is still solid against those mons that are still faster after the speed drop.
A very different type of hazard core. Gabite is fast so it’s able to revenge kill Lampent and Offensive Roselia. Koffing compliments Gabite by making Toxic risks as minimal as possible against Guts users. It’s also able to go through Hattrem’s Magic Bounce which is a key point. Flamethrower helps Koffing by threatening Ferroseed, though you aren’t stopping it from using Leed Seed exactly. Thief is mandatory because Koffing really wants to keep an Eviolite to tank hits from other threats. SpDef Evs are there to take 3 hits from Ebuzz and somewhat helps against Tangela. Besides you don’t really need Will O Wisp as you’ve Toxic and Tspikes already. Vullaby is important for being a solid switch-in against Hattrem, Duosion, Tangela, and Roselia. Vullaby also synergizes a little with Gabite for handling excellently against SpDef/Offensive Roselia.
At that point, this core would appreciate Piloswine and Shell Smash Wartortle checks such as Gurdurr, Wartortle, and Corsola-Galar.
This was a classic Bulky Offense core that was used a lot in the early weeks at NFEPL V or perhaps earlier at OMPL 9(though Golbat > Vullaby is more accurate. The core didn’t age as well in that period due to Magmar making things too inconsistent and Gurdurr became less used due to its passivity against Golbat teams.
Since Golbat and Magmar are banned, I could see this core make a comeback and become a staple core for Bulky Offensive teams. The last two can be anything, as long as the team members are able to pressure Tangela.
These three being together isn’t anything new, in fact, they were used quite often on CB Piloswine teams that people took from Stresh or the one Beauts adjusted. Here’s a much different one as its purpose is to use two of the best hazard pokemon and overwhelm the anti-hazard mons by the combination of hazard and wall-breaking potential. Mixed Clefairy fits perfectly here as it can easily switch in against Ferroseed and Gurdurr, and also acts as a Knock Absorber. Trick is the key here because Clefairy desperately needs Eviolite, and Trick itself creates a very tricky position for the next Pokemon to lose their Eviolite. Or just go 1v1, though most Gurdurr sets and Ferroseed will lose to Clefairy if they’re attempting to stay in. This core is definitely one of my favorite cores right now. Tspikes over Spikes can also work if the opponent doesn’t bring so many grounded poison mons so use this to your advantage when you want to prepare against someone.
I’ve been building like 52 teams while I procrastinated last week and this week, so I’m willing to share at least a chunk of them as my apology for getting this one out late as hell lol. Still appreciated that you took your time to check my long-ass posts lol, very much so.
Wishing all the best to the NFE players at OMPL, It’s a new ass meta so have fun experimenting. I’ll be enjoying watching them as a spectator. But right now I think I’ll chill a bit on NFE for a week or two. This post took out all the energy that I need to recharge haha. Thanks for reading and have a good one mate =)