Other Tiers Nintendo Cup 2000 Viability Rankings

This is a thread for making the Viability Ranking for Nintendo Cup 2000(NC2000, PokeCup).

  1. Purpose
    I had been making the NC2000 Viability Ranking(the content is as below), but I hope that Viability Ranking will be updated by everyone at Smogon Forums.
    https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/nintendo-cup-2000-resource-hub.3682691/

    It has already created Viability Ranking for GSCOU in that way(like below), and I would like to do the same for NC2000.
    https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gsc-ou-viability-rankings-mk-3.3633233/

  2. Premise rules
    There are some small minor rules in NC2000, and this thread assumes international rules.
    In addition to normal NC2000, "OHKO Moves Clause", "Evasion Moves Clause", and "Sleep Trap Clause" are applied.
    Please also be aware that Event Moves from New York and Japan are banned.
    (Lovely Kiss Nidoking, Rapid Spin Golem, etc are banned)
    For details, refer to the following rulebook created by Beelzemon 2003.
    https://image01.seesaawiki.jp/p/d/pbs-thread/l8fu1hjVgB.pdf

    Also, it assumes Studium mechanism.
    There are the following differences from the Cartridge mechanism that GSCOU players are accustomed to, and it is important to note that the Sleep Turn is reduced from 1-6 turns to 1-3 turns and the Present Glitch is eliminated.
    https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/please-add-a-pokémon-stadium-2-simulator-in-showdown.3679486/#post-8773208

    And it is assumed that Crystal moves are not banned.

  3. Requests
    I want you to list the species you think viable in order from 1st place and send a DM to me.
    (Your personal opinion is fine. It gathers opinions, which creates objectivity.)

    Please send me a DM on Smogon Forums, Discord or Twitter.
    -Smogon Forums :
    chio
    -Discord : chio#9530
    -Twitter : @chio_pkmn2gen

    The deadline is September 17th PM12:00 GMT + 0, and I will summarize the results by end of September.

  4. How to decide the ranking
    I will add species listed by more than 1/5 to the final Viability Ranking.
    And for viable species, I will rank them according to the following rules.
    -1st priority : High average ranking
    -2nd priority : Number of players ranked
    -3rd priority : Small variance (species with small variance is thinked that the tactics are mature and the consideration has highly validation)
    -4th priority : Previous rank (Only this time, the rank that chio posts to oneself will be used instead)

  5. DM format
    Not specified. The format you like is fine.
    It can be text, Excel, or an image. And it can be either English or Japanese(Please contact me previously if you prefer other languages).

    If you are not particular about the format, I recommend that you make a list by the following page and send image to me. It's graphical and easy to operate from your smartphone, so you will probably find it convenient.
    When using this tool, arrange the species of the same hierarchy in descending order of Rank from the left.
    https://tiermaker.com/create/pokemon-gsc-vc-471616
    However, some Species that may be viable are not present on this page.
    Unless otherwise specified, please replace as follows. If there is a problem with this replacement, please let me know by DM.
    Mewtwo ->
    Pikachu
    Mew ->
    Poliwhirl
    Lugia ->
    Machoke
    Ho-oh ->
    Haunter
    Celebi ->
    Voltorb

  6. List that I thinks viable (reference information)
    As a guide, the species that I thinks are viable are as follows.
    (This is sorted in the order of the Pokedex, to avoid overly distorting your consideration)
    Venusaur
    Charizard
    Blastoise
    Nidoking
    Ninetales
    Alakazam
    Machamp
    Tentacruel
    Golem
    Muk
    Cloyster
    Gengar
    Electrode
    Exeggutor
    Marowak
    Weezing
    Kangaskhan
    Starmie
    Jynx
    Electabuzz
    Tauros
    Gyarados
    Jolteon
    Aerodactyl
    Snorlax
    Zapdos
    Moltres
    Dragonite
    Meganium
    Typhlosion
    Ampharos
    Jumpluff
    Espeon
    Umbreon
    Misdreavus
    Forretress
    Steelix
    Scizor
    Heracross
    Piloswine
    Skarmory
    Houndoom
    Kingdra
    Porygon2
    Smeargle
    Miltank
    Blissey
    Raikou
    Entei
    Suicune
    Tyranitar

  7. Competitive play of modern NC2000 (reference information)
    You may not be familiar with the competitive play of the modern NC2000, so I tell you the results and replays of the tournament that took place at Pokemon Showdown!.
    Please refer to it if necessary.
    https://seesaawiki.jp/pbs-thread/d/Showdown Tournaments
    https://seesaawiki.jp/pbs-thread/d/NC2000 one-to-one games

    Also, NC2000 competitions are actively held at the Japanese simulator "Gym Leader's Castle" (GLC).
    It's important to note that the special mechanics and rules described below apply, but if you want to refer to a GLC match, ask and I will give you some information.
    https://seesaawiki.jp/pbs-thread/d/Bugs list
 
Last edited:
Regarding "4. How to decide the ranking", there was something I couldn't consider, so I change it as follows.

4.How to decide the ranking
I will add species that [having 2 or more posts] and [having 1/5 or more of the posts rate] to the final Viability Ranking.
And for viable species, I will rank them according to the following rules.
-1st priority : High average ranking
-2nd priority : Number of players ranked
-3rd priority : Small variance (species with small variance is thought that the tactics are mature and the consideration has highly validation)
-4th priority : Previous rank
-5th priority : Ranking by players who posted earlier

Change point
  • Added [having 2 or more posts] to the adding list conditions
    I want to avoid reflecting a few biased opinions in the final Viability Ranking, but, I did not regard to the possibility of number of posts to drop below six.
    Therefore, I add this clause.

  • Added 5th priority to sorting list conditions
    I did not regard to the possibility that 1st priority to 3rd priority would be the same for Species not listed in "Previous rank".
    Therefore, I added 5th priority to make sure that the order is uniquely determined.
    Players who post early are more likely to think about Viability Ranking on a daily basis, and the validity of their opinions is considered to be higher, so it is a first-come-first-served basis.
 
I'm sorry for the detailed contact.
I decided to add more another correction to "4. How to decide the ranking".

4.How to decide the ranking
I will add species that [having 2 or more posts] and [having 1/5 or more of the posts rate] to the final Viability Ranking.
About those species being regarded as viable, for species that a player did not post, that player is considered to have given that species a ranking of [number of species posted by that player + 1].
(e.g. If Player A, who posted the 50 species and did not post Pikachu, that player is considered to have given Pikachu the 51st rank.)


And for viable species, I will rank them according to the following rules.
-1st priority : High average ranking
-2nd priority : Number of players ranked
-3rd priority : Small variance (species with small variance is thought that the tactics are mature and the consideration has highly validation)
-4th priority : Previous rank
-5th priority : Ranking by players who posted earlier

Change point
I decided to make this correction because the posted species are always higher than the unposted species.
I have noticed that without this correction, species that weren't posted by all players could be an unreasonable rating that doesn't reflect the reality.
 
The Nintendo Cup 2000(NC2000) Viability Rankings 2021 posting period is over.
At NC2000, it is the first attempt to make Viability Rankings by multiple players.
Making Viability Rankings from scratch was a difficult task, but the great thing is that five players, including myself, helped with this task.
I grateful thank everyone for their cooperation.

Ranking posts and analysis
We posted and analysed the rankings using the method described earlier in this thread.

Nintendo Cup 2000 Viability Rankings 2021 (Results)
S1 Rank
 01
Snorlax

S2 Rank
 02
Zapdos

A1 Rank
 03
Venusaur
 04
Tyranitar
 05
Raikou
 06
Cloyster

A2 Rank
 07
Exeggutor
 08
Misdreavus

A3 Rank
 09
Marowak

B1 Rank
 10
Machamp
 11
Steelix

B2 Rank
 12
Starmie
 13
Gengar
 14
Suicune
 15
Heracross
 16
Miltank
 17
Umbreon
 18
Alakazam
 19
Porygon2

B3 Rank
 20
Skarmory
 21
Tauros

B4 Rank
 22
Moltres
 23
Golem
 24
Forretress
 25
Dragonite
 26
Blissey
 27
Charizard

C Rank
 28
Rhydon
 29
Electabuzz
 30
Kangaskhan
 31
Houndoom
 32
Electrode
 33
Meganium
 34
Jolteon
 35
Jynx
 36
Typhlosion
 37
Tentacruel
 38
Nidoking
 39
Kingdra
 40
Muk

D1 Rank
 41
Quagsire

D2 Rank
 42
Lanturn
 43
Piloswine
 44
Smeargle
 45
Clefable
 46
Espeon
 47
Articuno
 48
Scizor
 49
Aerodactyl
 50
Entei

E1 Rank
 51
Vaporeon
 52
Slowbro
 53
Magmar
 54
Primeape
 55
Slowking
 56
Poliwrath
 57
Shuckle
 58
Ninetales
 59
Victreebel
 60
Blastoise
 61
Mr. Mime
 62
Ampharos
 63
Jumpluff
 64
Gyarados

E2 Rank
 65
Weezing
 66
Donphan
 67
Magneton

Nintendo Cup 2000 Viability Rankings 2021 (Summary of individual posts)
NC2000_ViabilityRanking_2021.jpg

Nintendo Cup 2000 Viability Rankings 2021 (Detail of individual posts)
If you need it, please refer to the following Excel file.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/p/d/pbs-thread/5ZnZLEo2b6.xlsx

Overview analysis
With reference to Average and Variance, I divided the layers as above.
You can see S1-B4 as the higher rank with high consistency and C-E2 as the lower rank with the niche.
I'm generally not wondering, but I think we need to take a closer look at the higher rank.

Detailed analysis (S2-A2)
In Japan, "Snorlax", "Zapdos", "Tyranitar" and "Raikou" are considered "L55 four elite", and "Cloyster" "Exeggutor" "Venusaur" are considered "L50 three elite".
(Regarding L55, it has been said that "Miltank" is added and it is called "L55 five elite", but "Miltank" has already been swallowed to a more lower rank, and the viewpoint of "L55 five elite" is not realistic as of 2021.)
"L55 four elite" and "L50 three elite" are all in the S1-A2 range, proving that this discourse is still strong.

However, the Variance of "L50 three elite" is a little large, indicating that the opinions do not have enough consensus.
The following are possible reasons why opinions do not have enough consensus on these species.
  • Analysis of those three species is not widespread
    NC2000 analysis is not widespread in the international community. It is nessesary that learning the difficulty of checking L55 Marowak with L50 Pokemon to correctly understand the strength of Cloyster. Also, it is nessesary that learning the strength of Leech Seed at 3 vs 3 to correctly understand the strength of Exeggutor and Venusaur.

  • Defensive flaws in those three species
    NC2000 has the difficulty of having to solidify its defenses with three Pokemon, but those three species have some defensive flaws.
    -What they have in common is a flaw in the L55 Moltres. Even the L50 Cloyster is OHKO with Charcoal Fire Blast.
    -Exeggutor also suffers from Tyranitar. Cloyster is also a just bit better than Exeggutor because it can't win 1 on 1 due to L50 Cloyster be slower than L55 Tyranitar.
    -Unexpected Electric Type and Grass Type moves for Cloyster, and unexpected Bug Type moves for Exeggutor can make ones plans destruction.
    -Since these species rely on Explosion, Leech Seed, and Sleep Powder for many of their attack methods, they tend to be vulnerable to sweepers with Substitute. This is even the case with Venusaur, which is better at defending than Cloyster and Exeggutor.
Detailed analysis (B2-B3)
These species are arguably the higher rank species and have a big impact on the metagame, but there is no consensus on their strength.
In particular, the following species, which have a difference of around 10 between the final rank and the personal rank.
If possible, I would like to hear their opinion.
  • Starmie(Rank 12)
    Overestimate(Rank 3 by chio)
    Underestimate(Rank 23 by MISSINGNO, Rank 22 by Earthworm)

  • Gengar(Rank 13)
    Overestimate(Rank 5 by Earthworm)
    Underestimate(Rank 24 by MISSINGNO, Rank 22 by chio)

  • Suicune(Rank 14)
    Underestimate(Rank 30.5 by Beelzemon 2003)

  • Heracross(Rank 15)
    Overestimate(Rank 4 by Beelzemon 2003)
    Underestimate(Rank 25 by Earthworm)

  • Miltank(Rank 16)
    Underestimate(Rank 30.5 by Beelzemon 2003)

  • Umbreon(Rank 17)
    Underestimate(Rank 30.5 by Beelzemon 2003)

  • Alakazam(Rank 18)
    Overestimate(Rank 7 by Beelzemon 2003)
    Underestimate(Rank 32 by MISSINGNO)

  • Skarmory(Rank 20)
    Underestimate(Rank 44 by Beelzemon 2003)

  • Tauros(Rank 21)
    Overestimate(Rank 11 by Earthworm, Rank 12 by MISSINGNO)
    Underestimate(Rank 44 by Beelzemon 2003)
Future tasks
While making this Viability Rankings, I noticed the following issues.
I would like to work hard and ask for cooperation in solving these problems in the future.

  • Improvement of competitive environment
    Compared to GSCOU, the competitive environment of NC2000 is clearly undeveloped.

    -Lack of English literature
    NC2000 is the most competitive format in Japan, and the quality and quantity of Japanese literature may be comparable to the English GSCOU.
    However, there is almost no English literature on NC2000. This is a major obstacle to spreading NC2000 to the international community. Even when creating Viability Rankings, it can be difficult to get good feedback from many international players.

    -Inconsistent regulation
    Compared to GSCOU, which has unified regulations, the detailed regulations for NC2000 are inconsistent. This was the reason why some Japanese refused to cooperate. The competitive NC2000 is played in the following three places, but all have different regulations.

    1. International Simulator (Stadium mechanism(some bugs are unfixed now), OHKO Clause, Evasion Moves Clause)
    2. Japanese Simulator (Unique mechanism (slightly different from Cartridge and Studium), OHKO Clause, Permission for Japanese event moves)
    3. Japanese Offline Meeting (Cartridge mechanism)

  • Unification of post format
    This time, there was a player who did not uniquely rank the species, but only give layer. This time, I dealt with this by giving an average rank for each layer.
    In addition, there was a player who made a mistake in the posted content and offered a correction request after passing the deadline. It was a trivial mistake, so I declined the fix.
    These issues were caused by ununificate post formats. I would like to unify the posting format when the work is standardized.
 
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For reference, I would like to comment on the species that I have done Overestimate and Underestimate.
  • Starmie(Overestimate)
    Statistically, In Japan, the L55 Snorlax has increased significantly in 1-2 years, and I also use the L55 Snorlax a lot to attempt a stable match.
    Against this background, the L50 Starmie, which realizes an excellent range of defense in synergy with the L55 Snorlax, is highly evaluated.
    (Even if you don't use L55 Snorlax, for example L50 Double-Edge/Curse/SleepTalk/Rest/Leftovers Snorlax will implemente great synergies with L50 Starmie.)
    Also, when viewed as an opponent, I feel it more difficult against L50 Starmie than against L50 three elite.

    Starmie's range of defense is provided by Reflect.
    By switching to L55 Curse Snorlax after using Reflect, you can deal with almost all of physical sweepers and explorers.
    Also, Snorlax has problems against some L55 Fire Type Sweepers, but Starmie can at least fight evenly face-on-face with L55 Fire Type Sweepers.
    The measures mentioned so far will fail in the long run, but NC2000 which fight by three Pokemon will not be longer than GSCOU, and the opponents mentioned so far have problems in defense. Therefore, this level of measures is sufficient.
    Starmie has been pointed out to be vulnerable to Curse Snorlax, which can be remedied by using it with Machamp or by using Toxic with Starmie.
    In addition, Starmie can defeat Snorlax's checker with STAB Move, so it's not bad against even defensive opponents. In particular, the Ice Beam Starmie, which is used in combination with Machamp, is one of the powerful means of defeating defensive opponents.

  • Gengar(Underestimate)
    I don't have any particular opinion, but I'm a player who prefers a stable match, so Gengar, which is at risk by unexpected Earthquake (mainly by Snorlax), has a low rating.
    I prefer Misdreavus for defensive strategies and Alakazam which has better Speed stats than Gengar for aggressive strategies.
 
Last edited:

Earthworm

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Moderator
Thanks for going to the effort of producing such a detailed post. I found some useful insights throughout.

To comment on the reasoning for my rankings which have been considered overestimates and underestimates:

:gs/starmie: Starmie (Rank 12)
Overestimate (Rank 3 by chio)
Underestimate (Rank 23 by MISSINGNO, Rank 22 by Earthworm)

My reasoning here is that nearly all teams use Snorlax, either as an ace or as a utility slot, which limits the value of actually selecting Starmie a lot. I consider Starmie to be a situational choice used to discourage picks like Moltres. Perhaps I did not place enough value on these kinds of filler defensive Pokemon, but as I would not consider it as the main focus of most teams, I gave it a lower ranking.

:gs/gengar: Gengar (Rank 13)
Overestimate(Rank 5 by Earthworm)
Underestimate(Rank 24 by MISSINGNO, Rank 22 by chio)

First, I think that Gengar is a reasonable choice for the ace with its Attract set, as has been displayed by Marshmallon. There is undeniably great value, even when compared to Alakazam, in having an offensive special attacker with Normal immunity in a Snorlax-dominated format. Second, although the utility of wide coverage is reduced compared to gen2ou in a 3v3 battle with less Leftovers, I think Gengar still provides substantial unpredictability and offensive strength in this format. However, I accept that I likely overrated it here, especially considering the poor matchup against lv55 Zapdos as lv50 Gengar.

:gs/Heracross: Heracross (Rank 15)
Overestimate (Rank 4 by Beelzemon 2003)
Underestimate (Rank 25 by Earthworm)

Perhaps I don't have sufficient experience fighting Heracross in this format to evaluate it accurately. My observation is that most teams have Zapdos (lv50 or lv55) and many have Skarmory. In gen2ou, value is significantly less on Pokemon that require certain foes to be removed before they can do anything (see Heracross and Charizard for example, which have dominating power against some Pokemon but are helpless against a few common Pokemon, leading to them being ranked outside of the top ranks in the VR). This effect is lessened due to the 3v3 aspect of NC2000, so Heracross is probably improved, but Zapdos is still very common. Therefore, I ranked it quite low.

:gs/Tauros: Tauros (Rank 21)
Overestimate (Rank 11 by Earthworm, Rank 12 by MISSINGNO)
Underestimate (Rank 44 by Beelzemon 2003)

My evaluation here was based off Tauros's ridiculous potential as an ace with Berserk Gene, especially since it can still function well if the player switches to remove the boost and confusion. However, in practice, confusion often sets it back. Nevertheless, I felt that its potential earned it a high rank in this format.


I'm sure I will reassess and provide vastly different personal rankings once I have played a wider variety of strategies.
 
Thanks for creating the tier list.
I will write about the Pokemon you asked me to mention.

Alakazam(Rank 18)
Overestimate(Rank 7 by Beelzemon 2003)
Underestimate(Rank 32 by MISSINGNO)

It can be a barrier against parties with Machamp, but other than that
It's not particularly useful in other situations.
There are not many Snorlax that have both Sleep Talk and Earthquake, so Attract can be useful.
If you want to use Dynamic Punch, you need to be aware that its power decreases with gender.

Starmie (Rank 12)
Overestimate (Rank 3 by chio)
Underestimate (Rank 23 by MISSINGNO, Rank 22 by Earthworm)

Tyranitar doesn't have the slot for Crunch, and its sleep is a bit weaker than the Japanese simulator environment, so the gap between it and Suicune, which has Sleep Talk, is narrowing.
However, it is not very reliable as a countermeasure against Tyranitar and Machamp, hence this rank. I appreciate that it works well with both Toxic and Thunder Wave.

Tauros (Rank 21)
Overestimate (Rank 11 by Earthworm, Rank 12 by MISSINGNO)
Underestimate (Rank 44 by Beelzemon 2003)

It is an unstable Pokemon due to its Berserk Gene, but it is strong in confrontations with Zapdos and Tyranitar, and has a large presence.

Gengar(Rank 13)
Overestimate(Rank 5 by Earthworm)
Underestimate(Rank 24 by MISSINGNO, Rank 22 by chio)

It tends to lose its role to Misdreavus, who is not vulnerable to ground-type moves.
I may have reflected that too much in my evaluation.
Even at lvl 50, I consider it strong that it can take out a Cloyster with Thunder and a Tyranitar with two Dynamic Punches.
 

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