Nintendo's Cease and Desist

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Since I want a serious discussion on the topic and posting it in the flameboard is just asking for it to be derailed.

If somehow you are unaware of what we're talking about you can read about it here: http://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Fansites_served_with_copyright_infringement_notices

In my opinion, on this whole matter Nintendo are being pretty anal and are thinly disguising the real reason for sending these letters (as by now it has been confirmed that the e-mails are real despite the unprofessionalism and illegal 24-hour time limit) but some claim Nintendo knew this and this was all a scare tactic because they knew Serebii and Pokebeach wouldn't dare fight this in the courts even if they very likely can win this under "fair use".

To me and to most people I'm sure it's fairly obvious that if anything, these sites have been building hype up for the games and any logic behind any B&W images causing sale loss is completely incomprehensible, especially given how well the games have done in Japan just last week: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/30528/Pokemon_BlackWhite_Sees_Super_Effective_Launch.php

I have to ask myself, why specifically B&W images and not say Hg&Ss or any other of the currently still being sold 4th generation games? Surely these games would also constitute as being part of the trademark infringement claims and also theoretically damage sales?

The only discerning difference I can note other than that the games have not been localized and released outside Japan (which is a ridiculous argument to use given the globalization of the market and the internet) is that both Serebii and Bulbapedia have admitted or hinted at downloading ROMs of the games, which of course is indeed illegal but if Nintendo pursued this they wouldn't be able to prove.

If so, all of this has been a roundabout way to punish these sites for using ROMs and would explain why none of the 4th generation games have also been cited as infringing on the Pokemon franchise. I'm certain that if any other site had posted that they received their imported copies of the game and posted screenshots they wouldn't receive the same e-mails.

Thoughts?

 

[MikesPetUnicorn]

It seems that WPM is rebelling slowly on his website. It weirded me when Serebii got this letter from Nintendo, since they went into so much depth when D/P was released.

I hope someone think of a loophole around all of this to put B/W images back up. Someone should share this article with him. Good read.

 

[Firestorm]

Eh, instead of IGN can we use the people who actually did the work to get the story and they were too douchey not to source instead?

http://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Fansites_served_with_copyright_infringement_notices

Anyway, considering only the two sites got it, I do believe it's the ROM issue that bugged them as Nintendo is notoriously anti-piracy. So much that they've set up a website specifically for it and seem to have a definition of it that extends beyond what is software piracy in the legal sense.

It makes no sense for video game companies to attack the fansites that promote their game. That's one point that the PokeBeach owner was right about, even if he did do it in a very childish and embarrassing way.

 

[Curtains]

Most likely to discourage rom usage. If you look up music for the game on youtube some are being taken down. Roms are NASTY for any game.Expecially with a game of this magnetude.So i agree with nintendo doing this from a business stand point. Nintendo owes fansites absolutely nothing.They have thier own advertise department i assume that has worked since r/b.The way nintendo did it was shit, however ROMS are too risky for a generation where 9 year olds can get roms and play them.All this assuming the letter was legit.

 

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Most likely to discourage rom usage.

Which is funny, because if we know anything pirates tend to be self-righteous pricks and this may have spurned up more downloads of the ROM out of either ignorance of it existing before or spite!

If you look up music for the game on youtube some are being taken down. Roms are NASTY for any game.Expecially with a game of this magnetude.So i agree with nintendo doing this from a business stand point.

I think only in Japan however would this be a good idea from a business point, and I still also think it's hypocritical given that they aren't applying this to 4th generation games as well which I assume any Youtube videos and screenshots also have came from ROMs.

With Serebii and Pokebeach being English sites with a large number of English speaking users, it is very likely all of them plan on playing the localized games (whether legitimately or not) and if they are playing the ROMs they still intend to get those games. I know I'm going to pre-order Pokemon White as soon as I can from Amazon despite that I'm now playing the Japanese game.

Nintendo owes fansites absolutely nothing.They have thier own advertise department i assume that has worked since r/b.

True they don't owe fan sites anything, but if we were to speak politics Nintendo should have realized they lose more than they gain. Even with their own advertisement agency Serebii and Pokebeach speaks to a demograph their traditional advertisements simply don't reach, the hardcore competitive players that continue to play the games unlike the children their advertisements appeal towards that will put down the games a couple of weeks later.

 

[EliteMaster007]

Most likely to discourage rom usage. If you look up music for the game on youtube some are being taken down. Roms are NASTY for any game.Expecially with a game of this magnetude.So i agree with nintendo doing this from a business stand point. Nintendo owes fansites absolutely nothing.They have thier own advertise department i assume that has worked since r/b.The way nintendo did it was shit, however ROMS are too risky for a generation where 9 year olds can get roms and play them.All this assuming the letter was legit.

Damn. Might as well chase after those who are offering ROMs for download, wouldn't that be better?

This could be due to weak communication within Nintendo. I mean, does this even make sense that sales will improve after preventing images of the games from being distributed just to prevent ROM distribution? Apparently the upper management commanded: "Stop those stupid pirates!" and the lower management interpreted it as: "Do whatever is necessary to prevent people from getting their hands on the ROMs" and start calling their lawyers to request them to make ridiculous demands.

By extension of this, we might not even be allowed to discuss about the game.

 

[Morm]

I think it COULD be an attempt to try to keep hype boosted for North Americans, keep the mystery a little bit so sales go up. Who even knows though, litigation confuses me on the best of days and in many cases does indeed punish the innocent (see: anyone who's been wrongly accused but was stuck with lawyer fees after being shown innocent).

It's likely an attempt to stop ROMS as well. I wonder what this may hold for the future of online simulators, perhaps nintendo is trying to stake its claim: Anyone who wants to play will have to pay.

Is this legit?

 

[vonFiedler]

The way copyright works in this country is that every time you don't enforce your copyright it gets weaker. It's a shitty state of affairs, but in case anyone was wondering that's why things like this happen generally.

Having said that, most cease and desist letters are never meant to escalate to court action. They work on the premise that people will be bullied into falling in line, as Pokebeach and Serebii have.

 

[cantab]

We just have to hope Nintendo don't go after the elephant in the room: Shoddy. They would be entirely justified in banning its distribution, and could probably get servers shut down too.

 

[vonFiedler]

That's not necessarily true. At worst Shoddy Battle uses copyrighted names and images. But its a simulator that isn't being distributed for profit. You could easily argue that its a team building tool for the actual Pokemon game. The question is, could Smogon go that far in court against Nintendo?

 

[Firestorm]

They can send a Cease & Desist for anything they want - regardless of merit - and we'd still have to stop as we would not be able pay the amount Felix Merryweather would need to fight it. The same applies to every fansite on the internet. Again, this entire thing is being blown out of proportion. What likely happened is someone at Nintendo of America's legal department jumped the gun, Marketing and PR aren't too happy, and we won't see any more C&D notices for quite some time until someone does something really stupid.

 

[Cathy]

The way copyright works in this country is that every time you don't enforce your copyright it gets weaker.

This is actually completely untrue. You are thinking of genericisation of trademarks, which has nothing to do with copyright. There are no adverse consequences for a copyright holder to selectively enforce her copyright, and as such, most do engage in selective enforcement.

 

[vonFiedler]

This is actually completely untrue. You are thinking of genericisation of trademarks, which has nothing to do with copyright. There are no adverse consequences for a copyright holder to selectively enforce her copyright, and as such, most do engage in selective enforcement.

Ok, I did mix the two up. But Nintendo has trademarked Pokemon, and I think even several specific Pokemon such as Pikachu. In fact, Mew was the first registered Pokemon trademark.

 

[cookie]

lol nintendo has lost the plot 100%

one possible explanation for their zealous stance on piracy is that they've realised that preventing working roms from being created just isn't going to work and are simply attempting to curtail any activity that throws positive light on ROMs: I remember the 4th gen roms crashed every 100 steps or something but that was eventually subverted. Either that or they don't consider these fansites important sources of marketing, because they aren't stupid enough to ignore them.

i wouldn't be so worried about shoddybattle: they've been aware of battle simulators since netbattle, and to my knowledge nobody's received any threatening letters from any lawyers. It does confuse me though, because with the advent of wifi battle simulators potentially cut into the market of people wanting competitive battles.

EDIT: Firestorm's explanation makes a lot of sense now I read it, because nothing's really different between this gen and the last to provoke this sort of reaction

 

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Seems Serebii has been given the go ahead to put the images back on the site, still unclear what the problem was before.

I assume it is the same case for Pokebeach.

 

[Morm]

I am VERY pleased that they are allowed at Serebii.

 

[cantab]

They've allowed them because Nintendo realise they are frankly worthless. /blackandwhitehating

 

[-Rocket-James]

LOL.

I go to Serebii/ Bulbapedia for all my Pokemon news and information and I would bet most people go to Serebii and Bulbapedia more than they do to the official Pokemon websites. (Outside Japan anyway)

Therefore the way they are treating these sites is atrocious, they are getting free publicity and advertising off these websites (being a 2nd year media student I should know) now they have the nerve to ask them to stop promoting their game?

Even if it is to combat piracy it is very counter intuitive of them and I would agree there PR/ Marketing team must be in a huge rage over it. (Probably why Serebii is allowed to post images again now/ he said he was getting conflicting information from Nintendo, some people said he was allowed to and others not).

 

[Thee]

I think the main reasons as to why they are doing this is that Nintendo don't realize that most people who download ROMs actually buy the game. It would be easier if the USA started translations earlier instead of later to make the release dates a bit closer.

But this does not correlate with Nintendo not taking down ROMs (unless they have), or only, weirdly enough, the pictures. That seems to be a very random decision. I guess it makes sense that Nintendo wants the storyline hidden?

Once again, the unprofessionalism had once made me hope that it was a malicious single lawyer in Nintendo's law department, but sadly it appears that it is not the case.
EDIT: If Serebii is recieving conflicting information, my hope my actually be true. And it is not because I want or don't want pictures--I just cannot believe that Nintendo would do something this unprofessional.

 

[Serebii]

From what I've been able to gather, the C&D was due to the images we reposted from Pokexperto last week. I've been trying all week to get clarification (large international phone bills for the win ¬¬) but to no avail. The responses people have received from Nintendo confirm this, as does the fact that only Pokebeach and I were hit. Nothing to do with ROMs (I've had my game since Friday 17th. I even posted image of it on Sat 18th when WPM got hit so I could make sure people knew the facts). Here's the image once more
http://www.serebii.net/hidden/boxstuff.jpg

 

[Firestorm]

I don't understand why Pokeexperto didn't get the C&D if their images were the problem. Could you clarify some points?

1. Why did you post the news that you don't gain experience in the game? I would have expected someone with the game to realize this was entirely incorrect.

2. Why do you disable the ability to right click on a site where most of your content is taken from elsewhere? Your copyright notice at the bottom of the page is incorrect. Much of your content is not owned by you, it is owned by Nintendo.

3. Just a tip but use Skype for your international calls. I personally wouldn't pursue a conversation with Nintendo on this because I think you have a chance of making it worse for yourself rather than better, but that's your call.

 

[Thee]

A week ago, it seems pokebeach added some new info regarding this.
Though I don't care what he says, until the public gets proof and Nintendo makes a statement, there is no back up for this. All we have is pokebeach's whining. The only thing that piques my curiosity is the "legal documents."

 

[GMLW]

Copying my firebot thread. :/



The ironic part about this is that Nintendo is suing sites that get them free advertisement. They might even earn more money from the advertisement than they lose from the ROMs.

EDIT: Oh look, it's Serebii. Hi Serebii! Btw, If you can post images now, why haven't you? The sprites are up but nothing else. (If you actually are Serebii. You might just be a troll.) And why are you wasting time on Smogon of all places?

EDIT2: Jesus, PokeBeach is really freaking out over this. And he should be. Nintendo is acting ridiculous. I also found it funny that the lawyer refused to just say "Yes, you can post the sprites," or "No, you cannot post the sprites."

 

[Serebii]

I don't understand why Pokeexperto didn't get the C&D if their images were the problem. Could you clarify some points?

They did

1. Why did you post the news that you don't gain experience in the game? I would have expected someone with the game to realize this was entirely incorrect.

Well, my game hadn't arrived at that point and I was going off of what I had been told and people noted something similar in Pokemon Sunday about the character not having have levelled up yet so I just saw that and jumped

2. Why do you disable the ability to right click on a site where most of your content is taken from elsewhere? Your copyright notice at the bottom of the page is incorrect. Much of your content is not owned by you, it is owned by Nintendo.

Images and characters are owned by Nintendo. The writeups are owned by me. Most of my content is NOT taken from elsewhere and I resent the accusation. Yes, in the past, I used to steal, but that was 8 fucking years ago. Get the fuck over it. I work so hard on the content on my site, sometimes at detriment to my health and social life, and I don't appreciate people claiming I just take it from elsewhere.

Copying my firebot thread. :/



The ironic part about this is that Nintendo is suing sites that get them free advertisement. They might even earn more money from the advertisement than they lose from the ROMs.

EDIT: Oh look, it's Serebii. Hi Serebii! Btw, If you can post images now, why haven't you? The sprites are up but nothing else. (If you actually are Serebii. You might just be a troll.) And why are you wasting time on Smogon of all places?

EDIT2: Jesus, PokeBeach is really freaking out over this. And he should be. Nintendo is acting ridiculous. I also found it funny that the lawyer refused to just say "Yes, you can post the sprites," or "No, you cannot post the sprites."

It's a grey are. I've been told I can post images subject to fair use. However, I'm being very careful in what I post so as to not piss off Nintendo.