Announcement np: BDSP OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Mr. Blue Sky

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Eve

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:dp/latios:


Hey everyone! As you've probably already heard. the BDSP OU tiering council has decided to suspect test Latios.



Latios has been at the forefront of the metagame since day one. Its power, between its great Special Attack stat and STAB boosted Draco Meteor, is almost unmatched, and its coverage options such as Surf and Thunderbolt provide it with the capability to break through almost anything. It's no slouch defensively either- its physical bulk is decent at worst, and its special bulk is genuinely good when paired with its plentiful resistances and immunity to Earthquake, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes. This means Latios easily manages to get on the field multiple times, especially when paired with BDSP's plentiful U-turn users, and cause major damage throughout most battles.

Latios's most iconic set is Choice Specs, which is capable of OHKOing most offensive Pokemon and breaking down bulky Pokemon with smart play. While it no longer has access to Trick like it did in DPP and BW, this only really impacts its Blissey matchup, as even Specially Defensive Scizor has to be kept in near-perfect condition to not risk being 2HKOed by Specs Latios's Surf or Thunderbolt after Stealth Rock. The removal of Pursuit means that predicting incorrectly has far lower risk when compared to DPP and BW, allowing Latios to come in and force the opponent into awkward guessing games several times throughout a battle. Pokemon with Protect can help alleviate the need for prediction when facing down Latios, but fitting Protect on many of the Pokemon Latios threatens can be quite difficult. This ability to wear its checks down is sometimes improved further with Spikes, which synergize well with Latios due to its switchins typically being grounded Pokemon like Unaware Clefable, Scizor, Heatran, and Jirachi. This set is also extremely potent versus offense, as 110 is quite an elite Speed tier in BDSP and allows Latios to revenge kill or clean up the likes of Garchomp, Manaphy, and Infernape, and Latios' natural bulk can allow it to take a hit in a pinch. Latios is especially effective versus Sticky Web teams, where it ignores the webs entirely and usually outspeeds the vast majority, if not all, of the opposing team.

Choice Specs isn't the only way to use Latios, however - it has several other effective sets. Choice Scarf isn't quite as popular anymore now that Blaziken is banned, but it can still be useful for handling other Choice Scarf users, Alakazam, various Dragon Dance users, and countless other speedy threats. Soul Dew is overlooked but can be extremely potent, as it allows Latios to make full use of its access to reliable recovery to fire off attacks throughout the game and even defensively check Pokemon like Infernape. It also lets Latios bluff Choice items in some scenarios, setting up for effective lures and rendering Protect-based counterplay useless, and allows it to more effectively run powerful moves like Calm Mind and Defog. Life Orb comes at a cost to Latios' longevity, but the set allows unrivalled offensive flexibility. There are probably countless other effective sets that Latios can run, from Earthquake to lure Heatrans, to Calm Mind with Leftovers or a type resistance Berry in order to bypass certain checks.

Latios is especially notorious on Dragon spam teams, which utilize 2-4 Dragon-type Pokemon in order to break down their shared checks. These teams are quite popular at the moment, and often make use of Magnezone to further limit the opponent's options- even when Magnezone can't trap anything, its ability to turn Clefable into offensive momentum is integral to these teams. They often also make use of Doom Desire + U-turn Jirachi, which can create some very difficult scenarios for the opponent; its ability to deter Fairy-type switchins against Latios is as useful as it is obvious, and it can make life hard for even full health Scizor that happen to switch in on Surf or Thunderbolt.

As previously mentioned, Latios does have defensive checks other than Blissey, but they often have to be paired together in order to cover all of Latios's attacking options, as most can be 2HKOed by at least one move from Specs Latios. Some examples include Scizor, Jirachi, Clefable, Heatran, Empoleon, Forretress, Slowking, bulky Magnezone variants, and various Dark-type Pokemon that can blank a predicted Psychic. As you may notice, there's a lot of overlapping weaknesses in this pool of checks, with many of them being vulnerable to, or trapped by, Magnezone, and several being quite weak to common Latios partners like Rotom-Wash and Gliscor. The majority of these checks also lack in longevity, meaning Latios will often outlast them if it is backed up by solid responses to these checks.

While Latios is obviously extremely powerful, we don't believe it's overtly broken enough to warrant a quickban, as every playstyle can find some reasonable recourse against it. Offensive teams can pack supereffective priority and/or faster Pokemon such as Raikou, Starmie, Weavile, Alakazam, and Choice Scarf users in order to keep the pressure on Latios, or exploit a poorly timed Draco Meteor drop to enable a dangerous setup sweeper; stall teams are quite happy to pack both Blissey and Unaware Clefable, which generally blanks any Latios without heavy support from its teammates; and balanced teams can pack multiple checks to make the guessing game fairly difficult for the Latios use.

To summarize, Latios is an absolute powerhouse in the current metagame. With a near-unmatched damage output, good neutral coverage, an above-average Speed tier, and great longevity, it is a threat to offensive and balanced teamstyles alike. While balanced teams can afford to run multiple checks to Latios, these still don't ensure safety versus it, especially when it is backed up by its most popular teammates. With all this in mind, the BDSP OU Council has deemed Latios worthy of a suspect test.



  • ***THIS IS NEW TO GEN 8 SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.
GXEMinimum games
7850
78.249
78.448
78.647
78.846
7945
79.244
79.443
79.642
79.841
8040
80.239
80.438
80.637
80.836
8135
81.234
81.433
81.632
81.831
8230
  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be BD1L. For example, I might sign up with the ladder account BD1L Eve.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular BDSP OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Latios, will be allowed on the ladder.
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  • Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or BDSP Metagames moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until December 12th at 11:59 pm (GMT+0), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:


  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
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    • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message a BDSP OU Council Member or BDSP Metagames forum moderator, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.
Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message a BDSP OU Council Member. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message a BDSP Metagames forum moderator.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!
 
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Eve

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Update: To compensate slightly for the difficulty of being consistent on a new ladder, we have lowered the minimum GXE requirement from 80% to 78%. You can find updated thresholds for the number of games you must play in the opening post.
 
I am personally leaning towards DNB right now. There are a few reasons behind it.

1. Latios is not broken, nor is it limiting to teambuilding.
Latios actually has a lot of counters, including but not limited to Spdef Clefable, Scizor that has reliable recovery, as well as Tyranitar, Heatran, Bronzong and others that does not have recovery but gains a lot of value from switching in against Latios as well. Offensively Latios has a lot of checks, including but not limited to Weavile, Scarf Latias and Azumaill. This makes Latios reasonably easy to play against for the majority of the game, until those counters / checks have been taken down or severly weakened. I peronally believe that the previously mentioned pokemons have many more funcionality they can bring to the team other than being a dedicated Latios solution (maybe less so for Bronzong and Scarf Latias), hence Latios presence is definitely not a big limiting factor to teambuilding.

2. Latios is not as spammable as it seem to be.
Latios has the crucial problem of both of its STABs having immunities and hence cannot be used as freely. The most common Psychic STAB immunity right now is Weavile, which is extremely threatening if given a free switch in. Clefable is not as threatening, but can still be very annoying with Thunder Wave, Stealth Rocks and potential coverage moves such as Flamethrower, Ice Beam or Thunderbolt all being possibilities. Latios also has both STABs resisted by Steel and have 0 coverage moves for them apart from Earthquake, severely hindering its ability to break through cores. Latios also has limited sweeping potential due to its aforementioned problems, and is even further hindered by Draco Meteor dropping its SpA.

Edit 1:
I've read the claims ironwater made (the post right after this one) and I do want to raise some counter arguments to the following claims:

1. Latios has defensive counterplays that can be taken advantage of with good offensive teammates.
Latios cannot pivot while attacking, even if its counter is forced to click recovery moves at the turn Latios swaps out for a teammate. If you cannot find a solution to its "super strong physical attackers" its either a flaw in your teambuilding or its that specific pokemon that is broken and needs ban (looking at you Garchomp), but this is not the topic of this thread as we are discussing about Latios, not other mechanics in the meta. What is important and relevant to this suspect test is that Latios cannot just chip its counters without giving them a chance to click recovery moves (or do something else they desire). Latios has decent STABs but are without flaws, Draco Meteor has a pitiful 8pp limit and Psychic STAB is resisted by half of the ladder, making it extra hard for Latios to keep pressure on its counters without draining its own offensive potential out first.

2. Latios can also use Calm Mind to beat some psuedo answers like Slowking or Heatran in a one vs one scenario.
Heatran never was a solid enough answer to any form of Latios apart from probably Choice Scarf, and it is threatened by Surf as well, a move that had been seeing a lot of usage on Latios. Slowking has Thunder Wave and Calm Mind to deal with Latios (and by the way, non Calm Mind versions of Blissey also have Thunder Wave more often then not). For sure Thunder Wave versions cannot 1v1 Latios, but the game isn't just about 1v1, and the counters could easily take Latios into low enough health to force Roost, and swap to another pokemon on the turn. Is a Twave'd Latios really much of a threat to most physical attackers in the meta? I don't think so. With all that being said, the variability of the sets of Latios does help it in different scenarios, but nowhere as close to letting Latios go past the majority of its counters.

3. Latios has ability to force switchs and thus to force Rocks/Spikes damage until having its check in range.
This is a completely invalid claim, because for the vast majority of the generations and metagames hazard damage had be a very standard way to chip checks and counters down, and hazard control had long been a major factor of competitive gaming. Whether hazards are easy or hard to set up is completely irrelevant to the strength of an individual pokemon, because arguably every viable offensive pokemon is able to force a lot of switches. Latios in particular is not very relevant in the hazard control competition, as it cannot set up any hazards itself nor is it a solid defogger. Latios does have some advantage for being immune to Spikes, but that is not just going to make it overpowered: as a comparison, Alakazam is completely immune to hazards but that is barely relevant unless it is carrying sash.

I respect the fact that ironwater spent effort writing his PoV for Latios, but there are just too many things that I believe is fallacious and hence I wrote this response to the major claims he had. I cannot be completely sure that I understood all claims he/she made, and I'd be very happy to engage on further discussion about this, and I believe that communication will enhance our understandings :)

Edit 2:
Received more comments about CM Latios, I have already explained quite a bit on counterplays in the previous edit on 2 but I just want to quickly point out reliable ways you can deal with it either by beating it 1v1 or cripple it enough to neutralize it, listing from more to less relevant (might not be very precise):

Counters with recovery / cannot be chipped by Latios himself:
Scizor
Spdef Clefable (Not uncommon / bad btw, counters manaphy / Analytic Starmie / Alakazam and more)
Jirachi
CM Blissey
Shedinja
Haze Mantine
CM Cresselia
Umbreon
Wish CM Gardevoir

Counters without recovery:
Azumarill
Tyranitar
Metagross
Empoleon

You really should be able to fit at least 2 of them in your team no matter what you are playing as, or just fit Scizor (it won't be hard to do so). Isn't just for Latios either a lot of them really are viable in a lot of different ways outside of countering Latios.

Edit 3:
Some people are claiming that Latios is overcentralizing because it forces people to run sets that aren't good for the rest of the meta. I briefly covered this part in the original post in 1 but I'm just gonna list some of the more common checks and counters and prove its wrong.

Counters
Scizor: Universal poke that won't be any worse w/o Latios
SpDef Clef: Mentioned in Edit 2
CM Blissey: Counters Manaphy / Gengar which is so much more important that CM Latios which has a million different counters, people will still use it even if Latios is not present anymore
Jirachi: Still will counter Alakazam / Latias / Starmie / A ton of Psychics other than Latios thats still very relevant in the meta, because Psychic types are good in general, will drop in usage after Latios ban for sure though
Shedinja: Absolute main reason is to counter Manaphy, also counters Scizor and Breloom (unless weird sets w/ tomb or subseed), definitely not a desginated Latios counter in any way and will see usage with or without Latios
Haze Mantine: Designated for Manaphy
CM Cresselia: Not even designed for Latios, CM gives it potential to sweep and clean board and killing Latios is just a side effect

Checks / Counters without recovery
Weavile: Threatening w/ or w/o Latios
Azumarill: Another attacker that won't really mind Latios leaving, even benefits a bit from no other Dragon possibly running electric moves (Latios doesn't really run it a lot either but w/e)
Tyranitar: Still a very solid check to numerous threats such as Gengar, Alakazam, Heatran and more, mostly won't care if Latios leaves and would be even better because it checks Latias better
Empoleon: major reason is for the Stealth Rock / Defog and the potential to be a surprise factor w/ offensive Agility, won't be losing viability without Latios presence
 
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ironwater

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Hey there.

I’ll keep this post short because I don’t think there’s a lot to say on Latios. This Pokemon is both fast and hart hitting in a metagame where special walls are not numerous and rather easy to chip with hazards. Main Latios switch-ins are Blissey (with Calm Mind + Ice Beam) and defensive Scizor which are both very reliable counters (Jirachi is another solid one, but it’s overall not that great in the tier in my opinion), being able to beat both the Specs set and the non-locked variants (mainly using Soul Dew or Life Orb with Calm Mind). Specially defensive Clefable can also help even though Specs Psychic is able to 2HKO on a roll when Stealth Rocks are up (but it’s pretty good at beating the Calm Mind variants). The main issue I have with Latios is that these defensive counterplays are easy to take advantage of with good offensive teammates, while offensive counterplays are hard to find because of its Speed Tier and solid natural bulk. Indeed, firing off a Draco Meteor forces Pokemon like Blissey and Scizor to use a recovery move (otherwise they may end up in range of the next attack). This basically gives you a free turn to let a physical breaker come in and this tier is full of super strong physical breakers. This is particularly true for the Choice Specs set which deal ~40% to both with a Draco. If the Soul Dew/Life Orb set has a lower damage output and is less efficient at pressuring these defensive answers, it’s still a very potent set because it allows Latios to use Roost being thus way harder to chip down and to put in range of some priority moves, but also to use Calm Mind and to beat some pseudo answers like Slowking or Heatran in a one vs one scenario. The last point I want to make is that hazards are rather easy to stack up in this tier and particularly efficient in a bootless metagame, meaning that Latios ability to force switchs and thus to force Rocks/Spikes damage until having its check in range makes it even deadlier and harder to deal with because you will need both good defensive answers and hazard removers able to beat the opposing setters.

For these reasons I’m leaning towards voting BAN for this suspect. Thanks for reading, and good luck for reaching the reqs!

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 246-289 (34.4 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor: 132-156 (38.4 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 169-201 (42.8 - 51%) -- 51.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 204-240 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
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This is the first suspect I will be attempting to get reqs on (tho I might not cuz I’m not good at smogon formats LOL) but I always like to share my thoughts on these threads as I find them very interesting to discuss. So here’s how I feel about Latios in BDSP.

Latios is an incredible Pokémon, and personally I find his power to be a little much, but I was talking to a friend yesterday and he pointed out a pretty good counter argument.

- Latios’ main moves are stopped cold by fairly splashable pokemon.

While I do think that Latios has very few checks, one thing I often overlook is the quality of those checks. Something like Urshifu was problematic in regular OU because not only did it have very few checks, but the consistent checks it had were Pokémon that generally weren’t very good outside of not instantly dropping to urshifu’s STAB attacks.

Now if we look at Latios in BDSP, he has a small pool of checks, yes. But this pool includes some pretty excellent Pokémon in Clefable, Scizor, Blissey, and Heatran. One, if not more of these Pokémon will generally find their way on to most decent teams. They are great Pokémon with good use cases outside of “they don’t instantly drop to Latios STAB.”

However even with this in mind, I still think Latios is problematic. It’s far too easy to come in and let a Meteor or Psychic rip early game, taking something out in the process. And it’s not like Latios doesn’t have tools against these checks. Calm mind sets absolutely destroy blissey if she isn’t running the move herself. Clefable is cleanly 2 hit KO’d by psychic unless she’s running absolute max spdef, and Heatran has no recovery to speak of. While you can pair Latios with something like Infernape to keep pressure on Scizor and make it hesitant to roost, lest Infernape burn it to a crisp.

Now obviously this isn’t everything there is to say about Latios, but I haven’t played with Latios enough to form a reliable opinion on him outside of his most common specs set. I know he can run excellent scarf and calm mind sets, but I’ll let other people who know more discuss the implications of those sets.

I think it’s quite clear by my tone in this post that, despite my love for the eon duo, Latios deserves to be banned from BDSP OU.
 
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DPP was the first gen I got into competitively, so when I saw the remakes I was no doubt excited and played as soon as I could. I had the week during Thanksgiving free but I'm absolutely swamped these next few weeks and I find laddering during these times to be insanely unfun anyways. If I for some miraculous reason have the time and the luck (never liked this method but that's for another day) I'll be voting DO NOT BAN.

The main arguments for banning Latios is that Latios is incredibly spammable and hard to the point that it is hard to teambuild, I'll address the former first since I think it has the most merit:

- Latios' Draco Meteor is rather spammable, and if Draco Meteor isn't you can usually click Psychic and get away with it. However, what matters if it is possible to check that spamability and it absolutely is. Soul Dew varients struggle against Empoleon, Gliscor, Heatran, Magnezone, Tyranitar, Scizor, Sp.D Clefable, with the latter 3 being hard to avoid. If one were to say choice specs, it does become harder to check, (SpD Scizor dies after 2 Specs Psychics from a layer of spikes and SR) but in defensive teams any Pokemon that can take a Draco Meteor and Moonlight/Recover etc. uses it as momentum fodder now and the checks are mostly the same with the added bonus of being able to actually switch out on a "tech" option and proceed to sap the momentum in a metagame heavily based on it.

- An example: Specs Latios runs T-Bolt to hit Sp.D Empoleon dealing 60% low roll, 70% high roll, you go out to Gliscor and set up rocks, U-Turn, do actually anything. Even in Hyper Offense, assuming the opponent doesn't have anything for special attackers, at all. Any offensive steel like offensive SD Scizor, Lucario, Agility Empoleon, punishes Latios for merely existing and proceeds to set up on it. Even against Drag Spam Latios cannot afford to click Psychic against Latias and Zone and Draco Meteor makes it fodder for DD-Nite.

The second main reason pro-banners want Latios gone is that it is restrictive to teambuilding:

-That just isn't true. Does running two primary checks (i.e Sp.D Gliscor, Sp.D Scizor, Empoleon, Clef, etc.) help me against Latios? Sure. Is it exclusively for Latios? Not at all. Psychic types and special attackers in general are really low-risk this gen from the lack of Pursuit and I need something more than one Pokemon to check it just to stand a chance against monsters like Alakazam, Starmie, and even Latias with many of those Pokemon have a sense of utility that make them extremely damaging. (Alakazam is stupid fast, both hit like a truck and hard sweep with NP. Starmie has Rapid Spin, solid bulk, and also hits like a truck. Latias has Healing Wish and better bulk) If you carry only one thing for Pokemon like them expect to get screwed. The only unhealthy part about this is that these Psychic type Pokemon get a huge buff when its few checks in the tier gets trapped by Magnezone, something that I would argue is much less skill intensive and healthy for a game that lost a core counter measure against these Pokemon.

- Also, because I feel like this may come up, I do not think Pokemon being able to dedicate a slot to serve as a lure is inherently broken. It's been the name of the series since gen 2 Hidden Power and there was an entire mechanic about it in gen 7. Not only that, but there are multiple examples of how tournament players use the concept of luring to win crucial sets. I wouldn't consider something like Infernape running Grass Knot to surprise Hippowdon/Swampert to significantly damper the team to be oppressively, the issue comes if it allows the luring Pokemon to consistently 6-0 their team which doesn't happen with Latios for most competent teams.

Lastly, I'll say that Latios hasn't even always been the best option for teambuilding. A lot of times Latias is more useful in HO due to Healing Wish, offensive teams loving tools like Analytic Starmie or Sash/LO Zam, or really any team that's prone to getting walled out by Clefable or Scizor is a team to not put Latios in. Latios is a great Pokemon, but he is not a Pokemon that is uncounterable and many teams I build around it answer Latios without me even thinking about it. Truth be told, this is the earlier stages and I think the Pokemon is overly focused on. I don't think banning Latios will even change much of what people are running, let alone I don't think that the Pokemon is oppressive.
 
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The above dude already said almost everything I wanted, so I will be brief. I don,t feel Latios is strong and opressive enough to be banned.

Of course, having run a Stall team to get the reqs ( Tropius, Skarmory, Garchomp, Blissey, Tentacruel and Spiritomb) I was very prepared for Latios, but even before the Suspect, I never felt like I was putting a Mon in the team just for Latios. During the Suspect, I lost several times to teams that had Latios, but only once to Latios himself, and that one time was due to an opponent having a core of CM Latios + CM Cresselia that just ignores all my hazards and outstalled my CM Blissey with Cresselia.

Here are the Latios checks that I can think right of the bat: Scizor, Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross, Registeel, (Sdef) Magnezone, Heatran (in sun or if Latios doesn,t have Surf), Empoleon (if not Tbolt), Clefable, Gardevoir, Togekiss, Tyranitar, Umbreon, Blissey, Regigigas and Shedinja. Some rock Mons like Cradily, Regirock or Lunatone can also be checks, but they need Sand for it, so I am not going to count them.

I am not going to pretend all of those can be slapped on any team, after all, not everyone can be Eeveeto. However, some are very good Mons without taking Latios into account:

-Sdef Scizor is borderline S rank Mon and what I consider the 3rd or 4th best Mon of the Tier (1. Manaphy, 2. Gliscor, 3 would be a battle between Latios and Scizor) with or without Latios in the Tier. Since Gen 3 or 4, in 99% of the teams you NEED a Steel type and in this Meta, Sdef Scizor fits in ANY team archetype, the only difference being the last move of the set (Defog or Sword Dance). Of course, if Scizor is your only Latios check, you have to use it Sdef, which is kind of restricting, but if you use more than one Latios check, Scizor can opt to use more offensive sets (or Pdef if you are into that).

-If for some reason you don,t want to use Scizor as your Latios check, well, Jirachi also fits in any team archetype and has even more variety for sets. Unless Latios starts packing Shadow Ball, good luck breaking through a Wish variant. On more offensive teams, Jirachi still can switch a couple of times in Latios and pivot out in order to send some other threat.

-Empoleon has been getting some use both as rocker and Defogger. It checks well any Latios that doesn,t have Tbolt.

-Clefable has been severely nerfed but still gets some use and since most of what I see are Unaware variants, they are definetely not being used for Latios specifically.

-Blissey as a defensive Mon has taken a massive nerf, losing Wish, Teleport and Toxic. You can,t use a Blissey in HO teams, but in every other Style it still has some value with either Thunder Wave or Calm Mind + Boltbeam (set I used to get reqs), which has big value at checking Manaphy.

-Heatran is not broken unlike in SS due to not having Toxic, but it still is one of the top Mons in the meta. Any Latios that doesn,t have Surf, will have to throw a lot of DMs to get past Tran.

This is theorymoning, but I am pretty sure that if Latios gets banned, 80% of good teams still will use at least one of the 6 Mons above.

The rest of what I mentioned are niche, but I have seen Separation for example use successfully a Gardevoir in the ladder. I myself used an Umbreon in another team. Pokemon is a game of adapting and I think there are enough options to check Latios defensively.

When using an offensive team, its still possible to take advantage of Latios, who most of the time will be choice-locked. A Latios locked in Psychic or at -2 gives Weavile a chance to use SD, a Latios locked in DM allows Azumarill to use Belly Drum.

In short, I don,t see Latios much stronger than a LO Analytic Starmie, or Sheer Force Nidoking. It SPAMs moves easily, it breaks unprepared teams, but its not hard to actually prepare for.

I am clearly voting DO NOT BAN. When Home arrives and Latios starts crippling checks with Trick, smashing Scizor with Mystical Fire or Hidden Power and breaking Blissey with Psyshock, then I will accept its broken. Right now he is not, unlike Manaphy, who just invalidates 90% of slower teams and still has value against faster ones.
 

Lily

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I don't have much to say on this; Latios is broken, stop using Specs and you'll see it. The reasons that made Specs optimal in the past (necessity to break past super fat mons, Pursuit dropping you anyway, nothing immune to Draco) no longer exist and Life Orb / even Soul Dew is so much better because of one huge reason: Roost. To demonstrate what Roost does for Latios I'm gonna quote a bunch of listed counters and show how they fare against a Latios that can heal itself. I'm assuming a set of CM / Draco / Psychic or Surf / Roost, since that's by far the move effective set in my opinion.

Scizor, Jirachi, Bronzong, Metagross, Registeel, (Sdef) Magnezone, Heatran (in sun or if Latios doesn,t have Surf), Empoleon (if not Tbolt), Clefable, Gardevoir, Togekiss, Tyranitar, Umbreon, Blissey, Regigigas and Shedinja.
:scizor: A good counter
:jirachi: Has no real way of hurting Latios on its own but can U-turn into something like Weavile if it's available. Does not beat Latios but is an ok check alongside something else
:bronzong: Walled
:metagross: Frailer than the above two and very susceptible to being worn down but a good temporary check
:registeel: Walled, needs something like Curse to beat it
:magnezone: Walled
:heatran: Walled
:empoleon: Walled, can at least Roar it out
:clefable: Unaware SpD Clef wins this matchup at the cost of being bad against almost everything else in the tier, anything else loses
:gardevoir: Just gets worn down real fast by Psychics and Surfs, if it's some whack defensive set it needs CM of its own to win anyway
:togekiss: Walled
:tyranitar: Very set dependent but can work as a temporary check
:umbreon: Generally a decent enough check but Draco really stings
:blissey: Walled, needs CM to win but I'll make this yellow since CM Blissey is fine enough
:regigigas: lol
:shedinja: sure

An important note: pretty much anything here that beats CM Latios loses to Specs bar Curse Registeel or CM Blissey. What this ultimately boils down to is that any team without a Scizor or CM Blissey is automatically Latios weak, because nobody is bringing Curse Registeel to this tier, and offensively checking it isn't easy either since shockingly most of the things people list (Raikou, scarf Infernape, Azelf etc) don't actually check a +1 Latios very well. Offensively beating it is only truly done by Weavile which gets outlasted really easily because Latios can heal off all that hazard and LO chip while Weavile cannot.

Basically what this post boils down to is that pretty much any argument I've seen made on the DNB side of Latios is based on its Specs set alone, which is fair enough if that's all you're seeing, but I encourage you to try a Roost set w/o a choice lock - either CM or 3Atks - and it should soon become apparent why this mon really, really needs to go.

Having now covered that Latios is, in fact, extremely restricting, I'd like to mention that it's also very splashable. Being a mon with great Speed and solid bulk is always great, but Latios turns this up to 11 with a resistance-laden typing, an ability that gives it a free immunity and the ability to threaten out virtually every offensive Pokemon in the tier. It's honestly so easy to just slap a Latios on any team and call it a day because in addition to being the best wallbreaker in the tier, it also makes checking things like Infernape, Garchomp, Breloom, Lucario, Feraligatr, Salamence, Dragonite, Roserade, Magnezone, Heatran, Manaphy, etc so much easier. I've often found myself questioning why any offensive team I use doesn't run Latios, because the combination of its downright stupid stat spread and longevity is just unparalleled by any offensive mon in the entire tier save for its sister.

I don't have much more to say; the OP covers a lot of the reasons to ban this thing. It's too strong, too limiting, too good at what it does and even when it goes we'll have Latias to ideally perform its role in a much healthier way. I'll be voting ban on this one.
 

Lalaya

Be Your True Mind...
is a Pre-Contributor
I don't have much to say on this; Latios is broken, stop using Specs and you'll see it. The reasons that made Specs optimal in the past (necessity to break past super fat mons, Pursuit dropping you anyway, nothing immune to Draco) no longer exist and Life Orb / even Soul Dew is so much better because of one huge reason: Roost. To demonstrate what Roost does for Latios I'm gonna quote a bunch of listed counters and show how they fare against a Latios that can heal itself. I'm assuming a set of CM / Draco / Psychic or Surf / Roost, since that's by far the move effective set in my opinion.



:scizor: A good counter
:jirachi: Has no real way of hurting Latios on its own but can U-turn into something like Weavile if it's available. Does not beat Latios but is an ok check alongside something else
:bronzong: Walled
:metagross: Frailer than the above two and very susceptible to being worn down but a good temporary check
:registeel: Walled, needs something like Curse to beat it
:magnezone: Walled
:heatran: Walled
:empoleon: Walled, can at least Roar it out
:clefable: Unaware SpD Clef wins this matchup at the cost of being bad against almost everything else in the tier, anything else loses
:gardevoir: Just gets worn down real fast by Psychics and Surfs, if it's some whack defensive set it needs CM of its own to win anyway
:togekiss: Walled
:tyranitar: Very set dependent but can work as a temporary check
:umbreon: Generally a decent enough check but Draco really stings
:blissey: Walled, needs CM to win but I'll make this yellow since CM Blissey is fine enough
:regigigas: lol
:shedinja: sure

An important note: pretty much anything here that beats CM Latios loses to Specs bar Curse Registeel or CM Blissey. What this ultimately boils down to is that any team without a Scizor or CM Blissey is automatically Latios weak, because nobody is bringing Curse Registeel to this tier, and offensively checking it isn't easy either since shockingly most of the things people list (Raikou, scarf Infernape, Azelf etc) don't actually check a +1 Latios very well. Offensively beating it is only truly done by Weavile which gets outlasted really easily because Latios can heal off all that hazard and LO chip while Weavile cannot.

Basically what this post boils down to is that pretty much any argument I've seen made on the DNB side of Latios is based on its Specs set alone, which is fair enough if that's all you're seeing, but I encourage you to try a Roost set w/o a choice lock - either CM or 3Atks - and it should soon become apparent why this mon really, really needs to go.

Having now covered that Latios is, in fact, extremely restricting, I'd like to mention that it's also very splashable. Being a mon with great Speed and solid bulk is always great, but Latios turns this up to 11 with a resistance-laden typing, an ability that gives it a free immunity and the ability to threaten out virtually every offensive Pokemon in the tier. It's honestly so easy to just slap a Latios on any team and call it a day because in addition to being the best wallbreaker in the tier, it also makes checking things like Infernape, Garchomp, Breloom, Lucario, Feraligatr, Salamence, Dragonite, Roserade, Magnezone, Heatran, Manaphy, etc so much easier. I've often found myself questioning why any offensive team I use doesn't run Latios, because the combination of its downright stupid stat spread and longevity is just unparalleled by any offensive mon in the entire tier save for its sister.

I don't have much more to say; the OP covers a lot of the reasons to ban this thing. It's too strong, too limiting, too good at what it does and even when it goes we'll have Latias to ideally perform its role in a much healthier way. I'll be voting ban on this one.
also just adding that, while CM Roost Tios is genuinely performing and more people should use it, there's any set combination of Tios sets that could hang even more Pokèmon, so you can finetune your jet dragon to whatever niche you need it for (Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Earthquake, other than the already mentioned Surf, while Dragon Pulse doesn't make you instantly weak again; hell, I wouldn't be surprised if people decide to run LUSTER PURGE just to shit on Scizor and Clef (haha you can't ignore your stat drops), or to go Gen6 MegaTios and run DD 3 Atks on the mon just to hate on the usual scarfer sets of Chomp and Ape even harsher, and I can honestly see this in this offensive meta)
Not only Tios is very splashable, he's also capable to run all different sets to hit whatever you need it the most and in return it makes it even harder to predict, since offensively you HAVE to know what set it is to check it, lest you wanna lose a mon just to send your Weavile or revengekiller of choice), and the series of mons that are able to check it REGARDLESS of the sets are literally counted by hand, so...
 
Hopefully this will be my last post in this thread, I am honestly not good at debating. The one thing I will say is that splashability should not be used as an argument, otherwise we would be banning Gliscor and Scizor soon too. There are legit reasons from the Ban side ( that I dont agree with, but they are still legit), Splashability is not one of them. Many Pokemon are splashable and not broken and many banned Mons or strats in the past were not splashable at all.
 

Lalaya

Be Your True Mind...
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Hopefully this will be my last post in this thread, I am honestly not good at debating. The one thing I will say is that splashability should not be used as an argument, otherwise we would be banning Gliscor and Scizor soon too. There are legit reasons from the Ban side ( that I dont agree with, but they are still legit), Splashability is not one of them. Many Pokemon are splashable and not broken and many banned Mons or strats in the past were not splashable at all.
I don't think anyone was using that as a standalone argument, it's just supporting on the whole argument on why Tios is so warping; it's just supporting of how Tios is an unhealthy presence, being able to fit in every team comp while warping the meta to unhealthy levels running specific counters to him, and he's indeed splashable to a fault; it's just the combination of factors, not just "splashable" the problem
 
Having played a bunch of BDSPOU lately here are my thoughts.

Latios has some extremely spammable moves such as Draco, Surf, Tbolt and Psychic giving it (near) perfect coverage (Shedinja kek). It's specs sets hit like a nuke and it only truly walled by making a correct prediction into one of your SpD walls, while scarf allows it to clean up and then there is also LO and CM variants.
Latios itself benefits well from the absence of HDB and Pursuit which makes its moves even more spammable. It's easily the most threatening mon in the game currently and without a Latios check you're likely to lose.

That being said, there's currently a ton of mons that can wall Latios if they predict correctly or when it's locked in already (see Eeveeto 's Lily 's posts for reference).

The question to me is: Is this healthy for the metagame? With Zam, Gengar, Latias, Zone, Manaphy, Raikou, Starmie and Zapdos excisting I believe the metagame needs some SpD checks regardless of Latios' precence in the tier. I think checking Latios currently is a prediction/luck based game, so my personal opinion shifts towards ban.
 
I recently climbed the ladder to the 1600s on 2 accounts prior to the suspect, and on both climbs I personally I never really found Latios particularly overbearing. Slotting sp.def mons into teams that also can handle Latios along with most of the other special attackers in the tier hasn't been too difficult, nor is it unreasonable in standard teambuilding. Eeveetos list and Lily's brief but accurate explanations cover Lati's checks to a T. However there is another one that belongs on that list: Snorlax, whose sp.def curse with set I've found to be very consistent and capable of handling the Eon dragon as well as other potent special attackers in the tier such as Gengar, Heatran, Starmie, the Nidos, Magnezone, Yanmega, and other relevant mons I could continue to list off. It actively contributes to the team by being an lasting special wall with recycle and extremely dangerous late game sweeper.

Also I see that some folks haven't been taking the idea of Shedinja as a genuninely worthy mon outside of being a niche Lati answer, and to that I'll leave some replays of the bug that helped me make my runs up the ladder. As there is nothing less than sweet satisfaction of watching folks bring in their Manaphy's, Azu's, and ofc Lati's to try and bust a hole all just to get completely stuffed by it and eventually concede since they slowly lose their means of killing it. It certainly isn't a splashable mon and d*mn sure requires a lot of support, but by Arceus it is effective.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1463421943
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1460223742
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1460211668

As it stands I don't think Lati is broken in the current metagame. I do look to the future and see potential for this to change drastically come the Home expansion the return of moves like Mystical Fire and Aura Sphere. At that time I think we should/inevitably will revisit Lati after that happens. But as of the present time and state of the meta, I am firmly in the camp of Latios is not currently broken, and after I ladder up for a 3rd time with a BD1L account, I plan on voting Do not Ban.
 
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Lalaya

Be Your True Mind...
is a Pre-Contributor
I recently climbed the ladder to the 1600s on 2 accounts prior to the suspect, and on both climbs I personally I never really found Latios particuarly overbearing. Slotting sp.def mons into teams that also can handle Latio along with most of the other special attackers in the tier hasn't been too difficult, nor is it unreasonable in standard teambuilding. Eeveetos list and Lily's brief but accurate explanations cover Lati's checks to a T. However there is another one that belongs on that list: Snorlax, whose sp.def curse with set I've found to be very consistent and capable of handling the Eon dragon as well as other potent special attackers in the tier such as Gengar, Heatran, Starmie, the Nidos, Magnezone, Yanmega, and other relevant mons I could continue to list off. It actively contributes to the team by being an lasting special wall with recycle and extremely dangerous late game sweeper.

Also I see that some folks haven't been taking the idea of Shedinja as a genuninely worthy mon outside of being a niche Lati answer, and to that I'll leave some replays of the bug that helped me make my runs up the ladder. As there is nothing less than sweet satisfaction of watching folks bring in their Manaphy's, Azu's, and ofc Lati's to try and bust a hole all just to get completely stuffed by it and eventually concede since they slowly lose their means of killing it. It certainly isn't a splashable mon and d*mn sure requires a lot of support, but by Arceus it is effective.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1463421943
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1460223742
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8bdspou-1460211668

As it stands I don't think Lati is broken in the current metagame. I do look to the future and see potential for this to change drastically come the Home expansion the return of moves like Mystical Fire and Aura Sphere. At that time I think we should/inevitably will revisit Lati after that happens. But as of the present time and state of the meta, I am firmly in the camp of Latios is not currently broken, and after I ladder up for a 3rd time with a BD1L account, I plan on voting Do not Ban.
just want to say Shedinja being a *Pokèmon* answer isn't really a good thing by itself since... it's Shedinja.
Kinda like Kyurem in OU is walled by Shedinja, in a way better meta where you could use Shedinja, it's just... what Shedinja does
Almost every Swift Swimmer is walled by Shedinja, but that doesn't make Drizzle any more balanced
I'd not consider Shedinja as a great answer to a Pokémon a good thing on which you should base your reasoning from, but it's just my opinion :blobsad:
 
I'd not consider Shedinja as a great answer to a Pokémon a good thing on which you should base your reasoning from, but it's just my opinion :blobsad:
Agreed, Shedinja certainly isn't my sole basis for being in the DNB camp though. I've explained my reasons above that, and simply added my thoughts on Shedinja being treated as an unviable gimmick that shouldn't be discounted as a secondary sidenote.
 
I will admit it has been a long time since I have participated in a suspect test so I don't remember if this is a viable reason for banning a mon or not, but it seems to me that when people are talking about how splashable Latios is they should really be talking about how centralizing Latios is.
While psychic types are clearly going to be a strong force as the meta develops, the thing that makes Latios stronger than other strong fast psychics like Starmie or Alakazam is its dragon typing. This additional dragon typing (and STAB Draco Meteor in particular) gives it a massive hit on psychic resists which is much more reliable then Zams Focus Miss or Starmies Scald/Hydro Pump.
Because of this it really limits the number of checks that Latios has. For the sake of this post, I'm going to be using what is imo the best Lati set in the game, LO 3 attacks (dual STAB + Surf) + roost. In my mind this set has 5 good answers, being :Scizor:, :Blissey:, :Clefable:, :Umbreon:, and :Shedinja:.
Of these mons I would say Umbreon and Shedinja are really only used to check Latios and don't have much of a niche outside of beating Lati. As Lily pointed out earlier Clef loses to a Calm Mind set and even so doesn't like taking Psychics if its taken damage before. Blissey is a good answer, but it losing Teleport means that its an extremely passive mon that many teams might not want to use. Scizor is in my opinion the best Latios answer as it fits on most teams, but forcing Sp Def Scizor on offensive teams is clearly not great. If I'm missing any good checks to Latios please let me know.
If being overcentralizing is a valid reason for banning a mon then it seems pretty clear to me that Latios should be banned due to its restrictions on teambuilding.
tl:dr The best Latios set has 5 answers, :Shedinja: and :Umbreon: are really only used for Latios, :Clefable: loses to other Latios sets, :Blissey: doesn't fit well on some teams, and :Scizor: is imo the only reliable answer that fits on most teams. Latios is way too centralizing for it to be a healthy presence in the tier, but I'm not sure if that is a legitimate reason to ban something under Smogon rules.
 
:Umbreon:, and :Shedinja:.
Of these mons I would say Umbreon and Shedinja are really only used to check Latios and don't have much of a niche outside of beating Lati.
Wrong. Umbreon has Wish in a Tier that has few Wishers. It also checks Nidoking and depending on the spread (it has multiple spreads) can check many physical attackers too, like Gyarados, Garchomp, Feraligatr, Dragonite, etc. On the special side, it also forces Gengar and Alakazam to use the unreliable Focus Blast. Its not the only Mon that can do that, but it has enough role compresion outside of Latios.

Shedinja requires 2 or 3 defoggers to be useful, I will give you that. But:
-It walls Latios and Latios (outside of very niche Shadow Ball).
-It walls Scizor outside of very niche dark moves.
-It walls Clefable unless it has a fire move (common, but not every Clefable has them).
-It walls Manaphy (you know, the actual broken Mon of the Tier, also outside of the very niche Shadow Ball).
-It forces Nidoking to use a Fire move. Granted, its already common in them, but with Shedinja it has to always use it.
-Its immune to Future Sight, meaning it can pivot into Slowbro (unless it has Flamethrower).
-It forces SD Gliscor to use Knock Off or Fire Fang. instead of Facade.
-It forces Gyarados to use Stone Edge, since with Protect it will beat Bounce.
-It forces Alakazam to use Shadow Ball. Granted, its a common Mon on Zam, but sometimes it may want to use Dazzling Gleam, Recover, Encore, etc. Well, as long as Shedinja is a thing, it can,t.
-It forces Garchomp to use either SE or Fire Blast. Common moves, but it means that it does wall SD + Sub or SD + Rocks ones.
-It forces Raikou to use Shadow Ball.
-It walls Suicune, fully.
-It forces Breloom to use either Leech Seed or a Rock Move. Usually it does not have the room for either of those moves.
-If someone wants to use an offensive Empoleon, well, vs Shedinja they can,t.
-Jirachi is walled. It has Shadow Ball, but I am yet to see it use it.
-Kingdra is fully walled.
-Magnezone is fully walled.
-Rotom-W needs WoW to win (So, NP + Sub or Trick is not an option).
-Mamoswine without rock move (most of them don,t use them), is walled.
-CM Cresselia (of which I have seen many on ladder) is also fully walled.

So, no, Umbreon and especially Shedinja are not used only for Latios, they have other niches.
 
So, no, Umbreon and especially Shedinja are not used only for Latios, they have other niches.
Just because Shedinja walls all of those mons does not mean that the reason it is being used it to beat those mons, the reason that Shedinja is being used is to beat Latios. Shedinja is likely to have a small niche for the entirety of this metagames life, however this niche is likely to be in C or C- tier for its use on most likely stall. If Latios was not in the tier Shedinja would almost certainly see a large drop, its a bad faith argument to say 'It forces Raikou to use Shadow Ball so its good' when it so clearly is not being used for that purpose.

While Umbreon does wall some mons and can pass wishes it is outclassed by Vaporeon and Jirachi as wish passers. I'm not denying that it is a bulky mon that does wall some stuff but again similar to Shedinja, the reason that it is being used is because it beats Lati, not because its the best option for the metagame as a whole.
 
Just because Shedinja walls all of those mons does not mean that the reason it is being used it to beat those mons, the reason that Shedinja is being used is to beat Latios. Shedinja is likely to have a small niche for the entirety of this metagames life, however this niche is likely to be in C or C- tier for its use on most likely stall. If Latios was not in the tier Shedinja would almost certainly see a large drop, its a bad faith argument to say 'It forces Raikou to use Shadow Ball so its good' when it so clearly is not being used for that purpose.
Shedinja is definitely a niche pick that sees more usage depending on whats popular in the meta - you are certainly right about that. Lati definitely contributes, but it's far from the only reason it's seeing usage right now. The bug has very important place on stall right now specifically for stopping 4 specific big threats in the meta that tear the archetype apart: previously mentioned eon dragon, Azumarill, Mamoswine, and most importantly: Manaphy.

Azu is a wallbreaking monster with the power to dominate a lot of teams by itself if not played around very carefully, but there 1 noteable hole that is being exploited right now: its currently lost access to Knock Off - making it unable to get through the bug and giving said teams a way to switch into it reliably. Mamo is in the same boat, lost access to knock and is not running Stone Edge on most of it's sets rn (In my entirety of laddering I've run into a grand total of only 1 person with edge). Most popular atm is the combination of Crash, EQ, Shard and the last slot being one of Rocks, Freeze Dry, or Sub - which gives the bug free entry and often scares mamo into either spamming rocks - and it hates staying in on Shedinja because Will-o ruins it. Getting in a spinner or defogger afterward isn't too diffucult either, which helps shedinja continue to get back in and absorb hits to wear down the oppostion and it's answers. We've already gone over enough times how Shed beats lati, so I'll expand with this: even without the bug handling lati honestly isn't nearly as difficult as the previously 2 mentioned mons for the style. And finally Manaphy is by far and away the biggest reason Shedinja is seeing usage rn - the options for handling it reliably are that limited.

I don't want to keep dragging this discussion out about Shedinja in a thread dedicated to discussing Lati's impact on the meta, so I'll hopefully be able to wrap it up with this summary:

Shedinja's usage is not soley a result of Lati's presence in the tier. Manaphy is without a doubt the main culprit (and we'll get to that blob in the near future). But even if both of those 2 were removed, the bug would still have a place in the meta for walling big threats that stall has a difficult time going up against. The other 2 cuplrits I've discussed in depth, and Eeveetos list also summarizes every other situational target incredibly well (thank you for writing that all out). Its a very niche pick, but one that is not replicated by any other mon in the game. It impacts the overal meta by simply by existing and popping up when you least expect it, and shouldn't be discounted from the equation as a reliable check/counter to Lati.
 
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Latios not is broken! and my vote is DNB! latios have a lot count of solid cheks int the metagame BDSP OU.
Checks with solid recover:
Blissey ( can t-wave in latios and disable all of your power)

sp def clef with magic guard or unware( magic guard able clefable to avoid hazards damage, and make psych not a two hit k.o after leftovers recovery, and unware can check psych with no hazards, and check de calm mind set of latios)

utility gardevoir with a bulk investment ( is a good cleric mon, with a good speed, and have utility in defensive teams and balance),

snorlax ( omg this mon can check, gengar, alakazam, manaphy, have a body slam to make a solid damage, have curse to counter latios with recover, have recycle to recover hp)


Jirachi ( good cleric mon, have u-turn to make a good advantage to a possible latios switch, have wish, its good to offensive teams because have doom desire to help ofensive dragon mons and have a solid bulk to check another mons in the meta)

Scizor Sp Def ( the best latios check actually in the meta, have defog, u-turn to make advantage, not take two hit k.o after rocks)

Umbreom ( another good cleric with a massive bulk to check gengar and alakzam, have heall bell, and have foul play to make a lot damage in latios)

Shedinja ( not have recover but latios ca'nt touch this).

Checks with not solid recover, but can't survive some turns, to make a rock 's damage in switchs of latios

Registeel ( UN UN UN UN, this mon have rest, curse, sleep talk, can put rocks in latios switch, can use thunder wave to make a good damage in the enemy team)

Bronzong (Rocks setter, have lavitate to make a ground immunity, is a solid check to fairys)

Empoleon (rocks setter, have defog, is OU in the meta)

Some things to talk:

if we consider absurds possibilities of latios like a latios with shadow ball, energy ball latios, luster purger etc, we can consider absurd defensive checks like a calm mind blissey with shadow ball, because in the two cases you are harming your mon to specifically things, latios with not surf or thunderbolt, is destroyed to heatran or empoleon.

Latios can't spam psych or draco because we have fairys and dark mons, after draco latios make easy possibilities to azumarill setup, dragonite, feraligator, spam of draco have a punish to the player.

Latios is weak to u-turn, and this make more hard to latios enter in the battle.

Latios not centralize the metagame because your checks is good to other things in OU. example: shedinja is good to chekc manaphy, sp def clefable check latias, manaphy, alakazam.

Last Thing, band mamoswine kill latios with ice shard, god bye!

Sorry for the bad english, i am brazilian :(

obs: why peoples hate wallbreakers?
 
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So, no, Umbreon and especially Shedinja are not used only for Latios, they have other niches.
The thing is, Shedinja needs lots of support to the point where it isn't worth it. The thing is completely invalidated if your opponent is running Tyranitar or Hippowdon, both of which are viable (or the occasional Abomasnow), and you MUST keep hazards off the field too. And there are other stuff that can stop it cold, like a Garchomp switch-in on any contact move, or burning a Synchronize mon, like psychic kitty.

Shedinja ( not have recover but latios ca'nt touch this).
Better hope your opponent isn't running Tyranitar or Hippowdon (or even the occasional Abomasnow). And you better keep hazards off the field too! What's more, using Shedinja means committing to guessing games where one false move puts you down a mon instantly.

Blissey ( can t-wave in latios and disable all of your power)
It's also extremely passive and invites hard-hitting physical attackers in. Like the dreaded Garchomp, for example. Thus it doesn't fit on some teams.

Umbreom ( another good cleric with a massive bulk to check gengar and alakzam, have heall bell, and have foul play to make a lot damage in latios)
See above. Also, it doesn't have much use outside of checking Latios.

sp def clef with magic guard or unware( magic guard able clefable to avoid hazards damage, and make psych not a two hit k.o after leftovers recovery, and unware can check psych with no hazards, and check de calm mind set of latios)
Unaware Sp.Def Clefable might win, but at the cost of suffering against most everything else in the metagame (of course, you're also vulnerable to indirect damage, like rocks). Any other set loses.

Empoleon (rocks setter, have defog, is OU in the meta)
This gets walled by the Roost set; the best it can do is Roar it out.

Registeel ( UN UN UN UN, this mon have rest, curse, sleep talk, can put rocks in latios switch, can use thunder wave to make a good damage in the enemy team)
I don't exactly consider Rest/Sleep Talk reliable, let alone viable. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Bronzong (Rocks setter, have lavitate to make a ground immunity, is a solid check to fairys)
Gets walled by Roost Latios.

utility gardevoir with a bulk investment ( is a good cleric mon, with a good speed, and have utility in defensive teams and balance),
Doesn't take Psychic or Surf that well, and it needs Calm Mind of its own to come out on top.

Latios can't spam psych or draco because we have fairys and dark mons, after draco latios make easy possibilities to azumarill setup, dragonite, feraligator, spam of draco have a punish to the player.
If all you're seeing is specs latios, that's fair... but how do you know that your opponent's Latios is specs? The answer: You don't.

Latios not centralize the metagame because your checks is good to other things in OU. example: shedinja is good to chekc manaphy, sp def clefable check latias, manaphy, alakazam.
That doesn't make it a healthy presence in the metagame.

Last Thing, band mamoswine kill latios with ice shard, god bye!
No remotely competent opponent would leave their Latios in on a Mamoswine, especially on the most obviously telegraphed Ice Shard ever.
 
In my opinion, most of people here agree that cm latios is best latios set so I will mention a way to beat latios that no one here mention yet. Thunder wave. Once you thunder wave a latios , many thing gonna outspeed it such as max speed adamant crawdaunt.

Ou Pokémon that have thunder wave :
Alakazam
Azelf
Blissey
Clefable
Jirachi
Magnezone
Starmie
Togekiss

The other way to deal with latios is revenge kill with scarf pokemon or faster pokemon such as weavile. Scizor and jirachi can bring those Pokémon reliably and threaten latios.
 

Fusion Flare

LIVING IN A GODDAMN GARBAGE CAN???
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
No remotely competent opponent would leave their Latios in on a Mamoswine, especially on the most obviously telegraphed Ice Shard ever.
If the switch out of the Ice Shard is so telegraphed, then its kikely you could just, i dunno, click another move? Harass the scizor with Earrhquake? Freeze-Dry the Rotom Wash? Maybe you could even go with substitute. I see that sometimes to ease prediction, and it seems to be effective.

The thing is, Shedinja needs lots of support to the point where it isn't worth it. The thing is completely invalidated if your opponent is running Tyranitar or Hippowdon, both of which are viable (or the occasional Abomasnow), and you MUST keep hazards off the field too. And there are other stuff that can stop it cold, like a Garchomp switch-in on any contact move, or burning a Synchronize mon, like psychic kitty.
What you say is true about hazards, but most Shedinja teams I see load up IMMENSELY on hazard control. We’re talking mons like Gliscor, Starmie, Xatu, Mantine, and Skarmory. Teams like these can load up on defoggers like crazy because they fulfill other roles other than fogging.

Also, why SYNCHRONIZE of all abilities when you mention things that Shedinja must be wary of? I get Rough Skin and all, but there’s only one polemon that wants to run synchronize, and its the pokemon that has synchronize exclusively: mew. alakazam would rather run magic guard, gardevoir would rather run trace, umbreon prefers inner focus so it doesnt get flinch haxd, and espeon and xatu run magic bounce, which admittedly is a good countermeasure to clicking wisp, but those mons get shredded by shadow claw so whatevs.

If you want to mention abilities that punish Shedinja, there’s Flame Body Heatran. Checking Fire types isnt in the market currently, so its better to punish contact moves from pokemon like Scizor and the like.
 
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