Metagame np: DOU Stage 2 - Mama Said Knock You Out | Kangaskhanite is Banned | Swagger is Banned

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Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
#51
I find I disagree with the idea that tapus are centralizing / necessary on many teams because of their ability to switch terrains, after all terrains aren't as synergistic or nearly as powerful as weather effects. Instead, I think tapus are so common because fairy typing (especially fairy+water) is so good offensively and defensively, and the current central three tapus (fini, koko, lele) are the three best fairy types you can find. To the idea that tapus push out certain strats (sleep, priority) I don't really think this is problematic. What is getting less usage because it can't priority everything all the time? Amoonguss is also still plenty strong, arguably maybe stronger, and burn practically got nerfed to the ground with the combination of few physical attackers and 6%/turn (it should be noted that it wasn't really very good last gen either, due to distribution).

With Garde coming soon(?) I think we could see a lot of this change. Although it'll lack Jirachi support, we've already seen how immensely powerful Garde can be from last gen, and I definitely wouldn't count it out.
 
#52

It's freed!

Does it matter or nah? I haven't built a proper team around it yet, but based on initial testing, it kind of just feels like another generic fast attacker. Spectral Thief is neat, but I haven't found myself in a situation yet where it did anything important. Then again maybe I'm just using it wrong (max Atk and Spe). Maybe the trick is to make it bulkier or something?
 
#53
It's worth noting that because Marshadow has Technician it can outspeed Mega Mence and do this:
0 SpA Life Orb Technician Marshadow Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence-Mega: 338-400 (102.1 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Close Combat is really nice for Snorlax given the lack of viable Fighting-types and Spectral Thief is neat too, notably bypassing Substitutes against things like DD Zygarde. Obviously it struggles with Tapus so it probably won't make a massive impact but it could form a cool core with Mega Gengar or something else that handles Fairies.
 
#54

It's freed!

Does it matter or nah? I haven't built a proper team around it yet, but based on initial testing, it kind of just feels like another generic fast attacker. Spectral Thief is neat, but I haven't found myself in a situation yet where it did anything important. Then again maybe I'm just using it wrong (max Atk and Spe). Maybe the trick is to make it bulkier or something?
I take it back. Swagger + Marsh is the new meta. broke lol.
 
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#55
I don't know if I'm in the majority for this camp but I'd really like something (anything) done about this metagame. maybe not this second (letting Marshadow and the meta around it settle is fine) but I have not had this little fun playing Pokemon in a long, long time. Games are frustrating due to the ridiculous amount of set up and I come out of half of my losses feeling like I just got cheesed out. When good players talked about correct positioning last gen, it was along the lines of "don't allow Heatran to get up a Sub for free against your Amoonguss and Choice-locked Lando," but in SM, almost any lapse in positioning leads to a near automatic loss of interactivity in a match due to these omnipresent and threatening set-up sweepers. Not saying ORAS was the pinnacle of balance (with about 15 viable Pokemon) but for the most part, it was a damn good tier that I still enjoy playing.

I'm not going to bullshit you guys and add some buzzwords about this metagame being "uncompetitive" or "too centralized" or whatever, because the simple fact is that it isn't fun. While I've suggested to my friends in other tiers to try out DOU in the past, I seriously struggle to do the same now. I don't want to play or recommend a tier that isn't fun.

As someone who's been on council before, I think we fall into the lull of "Doubles is naturally balanced" way too easily and are reluctant to consider changing anything. I respect caution but I think I can speak for the whole community when I say even if the council doesn't reach the same conclusion that I do, more discussion on the state of the metagame (if it's OK/healthy, whether action needs to be taken, etc.) in this thread would be appreciated.
 

miltankmilk

**hypnotic recorder plays in background**
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#56
Wanting to echo what qsns said with set-up being overwhelming this generation. The problem is there's no single, clear culprit or even pair of culprits like azu-rachi in XY. I thought removing Jirachi and Kang would help, but the meta has just devolved into a really stale positioning contest where KOing a pokemon at the wrong time can often cost the game. Some of the more common set-up sweepers at the moment are Snorlax, Zygarde, Mence, Fini and the occasional PZ. There's not one thing that stops all of these without resorting to using Haze, (which has been dismissed as far to niche to warrant in teambuilding; see EvoBoost, Jirachi+booster), or some other really niche tech move.

Something qsns and I were talking about earlier as a problem to the metagame is Tapu Fini. The calm mind set, to me, is not a problem in any aspect but the 'SwagPulse' set has become incredibly frustrating when attempting to stop opposing set-up. Specifically with lax and Zygarde, Status and Intimidate could be really useful tools when trying to stop a potential lax or zygarde sweep but Fini can take these options away with side Swagger and Misty Terrain. Fini also makes it really difficult stop set up unless you can do it in one hit or after you remove fini, with its heal pulse often acting as a passive-redirection that forces the opponent to target the Fini before they can address the Lax/Zygarde/etc that's actually removing your pokemon every turn.

People have talked about banning swagger, looking at Lax or a few other options for addressing what many would call an undesirable metagame, but maybe we should take a closer look at the effect Tapu Fini has on the meta and how many different pokemon it enables with its SwagPulse set.
 

Kaori

my success story
is a Tutoris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
#57
We've had quite a few new releases these past few weeks, wanna get a discussion rolling on a few things.



Marshadow

Cute spooky little ghost friend is a probably the most notable recent addition to the tier, bringing a strong attacker with nearly unresisted coverage and a new move that stops set up in its tracks. Probably the easiest thing to point a finger at and call broken, it has respectable defenses and hits like a truck with a deep move pool to boot. It's the subject of the Teambuilding Competition this week, would love to see some teams posted to help get this meta developing as this is probably one of the most important new additions we've had since Game Freak started dropping Mega Stones on us.


Mega Gardevoir

Nowhere near the titan it was last gen, this Pokemon sorely misses the power it loses from the Pixilate nerf and having competition from Tapu Lele for its offensive capabilities. However, it still has use as a TR setter with offensive presence, can use a plethora of support moves like Icy Wind and Encore, and still dents anything unresisted. I've recently dropped a team with it in the Team Bazaar, would love to see some more.

Mega Kang on a Budget

The second waifu mega to be released recently, Lopunny has recieved a bit of hype as being a sort of Kang replacement, being a Fake Out user with some offensive options and access to a few support moves. I'm pretty unfamiliar with it myself but give it a shot and let me know what you think, it's certainly intriguing now that its niche isn't completely outclassed by another mega.


Swagger

Final and probably most important point, Swagger. As noted in this thread, set up spam has been quite prevalent as of late and the addition of Marshadow promises a rise in the use of everybodies my favorite move, Swagger. For those not in the know, Spectral Thief functions in such a way that you steal any boosts from an opposing Pokemon and then attack with them, meaning if you Swagger an opponent and use Spectral Thief on them, you just hit them with a +2 Spectral Thief. As you can imagine, this is quite powerful and promises to bring a higher amount of use to Swagger. I wouldn't be surprised to see swagger being chucked onto fast mons like Skymin, Tapu Koko, or even a return of Thundurus as it can Taunt Trick Room users that would otherwise trouble Marshadow. This is something that the council is looking to address in the coming weeks, and we would like to hear your thoughts!

 
#58

Marshadow
  • Too early to say if it's broken. More than anything, it just shook up the meta we were used to.
  • Created a bit of a speed creep in the meta, even though faster mons were technically available before. The fact that we now have a base 125 mon that nothing can switch in to means that running faster attackers (Skymin, Scarf users, etc.) becomes pretty essential if you're not running Trick Room.
  • It relies on its speed to maintain an advantage, so Trick Room teams are still going to have opportunities to beat it down and even set up some mons (Snorlax, Diancie, anything you can swagpulse with Fini). Of course, it's a lot harder to set Trick Room with Marshadow around, since it can beat down most setters handily and you can't even use Fake Out on it.
  • Marshadow mirrors are dumb af lol, and probably my least favourite aspect of this mon. You're basically playing "chicken" with the other Marshadow to see if one will Protect or switch out, and if neither do, one will KO the other by a Shadow Sneak speed tie. Nothing competitive about this matchup at all.
  • Intimidate will help keep it in check. Tbh, may as well run double intimidate since Milotic's stock just plummeted with this mon's introduction :)
  • A bit of 4MSS, since it kind of wants to run Shadow Sneak and HP Ice at the same time. Mega Salamence beats this mon if it's not packing the latter.
  • Can steal an opponent's swagger, and can also be self-swagged by an ally Tapu Fini, which makes it kinda broke in that setting...but more on that below :)


Mega Gardevoir

  • I think a lot of people have been waiting for this mon for a long time.
  • It's another viable offensive Trick Room setter that isn't named Hoopa-U, which is nice.
  • I don't think it's going to be great outside of Trick Room this gen; base 100 is pretty slow now :/.
  • That said, it's also faster than most other relevant TR setters, so it has a bit of a disadvantage against more dedicated TR teams
  • If there was ever a relevant time for there to be a spread Fairy attacker + TR setter, it's in a meta that has Marshadow and Lopunny
  • Sort of competes with the Tapus, but realistically you're probably fine to run two Fairies since it's just Poison and Steel weaknesses you're stacking. Tapu Fini stands out as a really good partner that has good synergy despite a common Fairy typing

Economy-class Mega Kangaskhan
  • It's kind of like Kang, but way faster (base 135) so it's really reserved to Balance and Hyper Offense teams - it doesn't do too much to support TR although I'm sure it could work on some sort of semi-TR build
  • Normal / Fighting STABs + Scrappy mean nothing resists both attacks. Unfortunately for its fighting STAB you're forced to pick between High Jump Kick (loses to Protect) and Drain Punch (weak move on an already weak-ish physical attacker).
  • Beats Marshadow once it's below 100% HP which is kind of nice.
  • It has some pretty neat support options. It's faster than Marshadow so it can feed Marshadow's targets Swagger boosts. It gets fast Encore to punish Protect users. It gets After You which I'm sure someone will whip out for the memes at some point.
  • Deoxys-A better start running +Spe natures again :)
  • Pairs with Marshadow to give you two mons that attack stuff with no switch-ins to speak of. Lopunny + Marshadow mirrors are even less fun than Marshadow mirrors.
  • Marshadow can't steal swag boosts from a +2 Lopunny :)

Swagger
  • Gamefreak tried to nerf this move, now people just use it for the +2 Attack boosts lol. Even if Misty Terrain isn't up, you can self-swag a mon and have a 2/3 chance of still attacking with it. Also, pretty much every viable Pokemon in this meta can learn it.
  • It's not healthy for the meta imo. It outsources the turn(s) it takes to set up something to the bulky mon that doesn't mind taking hits, while the attacking Pokemon that wants the boost doesn't have to waste its turn setting up.
  • I don't think Marshadow is the main reason Swagger is unhealthy for the meta, although Spectral Thief mechanics certainly don't help. Fini has been turning Swagger into something dumb for quite some time now.
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
#59


Thoughts, Testing, and Some Teams
So, Marshadow recently came out, and it's definitely very, very strong. I'll brush past all the functionality of what it does and instead talk about what I think of it.

First off, what sets Marshadow apart from other Fighting-Types is its Speed, which redeems matchups like mence and tapu lele. Sure, it still ""loses"" to mence but there's a mile of difference between being able to attack before mence and just dying to mence, especially in doubles. What notably sets Marsh apart from other Ghosts, on the other hand, is its ability to take dark attacks neutrally and to also beat dark types handily, unlike Aegis/Gengar. Overall, an incredibly tool for adding offense to teams, and extremely good for rain, which desperately needed something like marsh to sustain its offense.

Gardevoir, on the other hand, is extremely exciting too. There's the obvious Trick Room radar that goes off, but it also benefits greatly from Marshadow heavily beating opposing Steel-Types and how incredibly special-heavy the meta is right now. With Jirachi out of the picture, the best checks to Gardevoir TR is either out-offensing it (always hard to do) or juggling Amoonguss, outside of running your own TR. CM Garde has some solid potential in such a special-heavy meta, as CM Garde lets it bank on TWind / protects while also letting it just setup in front of the more passive elements of the meta like FiniZap / Heatran / opposing Gardevoir.

Overall both these additions to the meta mean HO has got its fingers back into the meta and Garde TR is going to be the nuts.

As far as Marsh's brokenness go I agree it can be pretty problematic. I'm going to start referencing replays to substantiate what I'm saying, with [1],[2], corresponding to what replay I'm talking about.

Swagger+Marsh almost-ridiculously rewards "double-targeting", which is a problem in two parts. First, it creates 50/50 win situations, sometimes from the very start of the game. See turn 13 of [2] where SamVGC has to pick one of the two to target, turn 5 of [4] where it's 50/50 between smacking zapdos or porygonz, or turn 1 of [5] where a good predict grants me an almost-effortless 6-0 from then on out. It lets Marsh teams go "Since you have no switchins something must die here and after that I will be +1" which is a situation that happens too often for my liking, since Ghost-coverage is only resisted by Dark. Essentially, wild momentum swings that are almost impossible to stop. Intimidate cycling doesn't work in the face of Swagger-boosting, so that's off the table.

Addressing the sentiment that Doubles is shit/boring atm, I disagree a lot. Especially with the new releases, I'm seeing a lot of cool team ideas and sets and strategies. Atm, Gardevoir's really exciting to build around with lots of ground to explore to options to try, and overall there's a lot of build diversity options out there.

IF we choose to address swagger, which is a valid response if swagger+marsh is too strong, we shouldn't disallow side swagger. As shown in [3] it's a really good adaptation to beating opposing Tapu Fini that's also been used previously in high level games (ie swagger amoonguss).

If we keep Marshadow we could consider freeing Kangaskhan, don't think it'd be overpowering with marsh running around, and Kangaskhan was a vital component to keeping opposing Tapu Fini in check that we lost when we banned it, letting fini run rampant and people choosing checks like kyube/koko/lax.

PSA:
Amoonguss is really good atm, also I got slain by marsh sun when using marsh rain when it was landot+char y played well so I couldn't use koko to full potential, and ev your landots to live a +1 LO Marsh Spectral Thief.

Referenced Replays (s/o to SamVGC for testing with me):
[1] http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-600491298
[2] http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-600487429
[3] http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-600500773
[4] http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-600495282
[5] https://pastebin.com/STHzkzfF

Fun Teams that I built
These are all in the replays above but they're fun and I thought I'd share

Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 64 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Psychic
- Trick Room
- Protect

Kingdra @ Waterium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Muddy Water
- Swagger
- Protect

Politoed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Hydro Pump
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast

Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Protect

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Swagger

Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Sludge Bomb
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Protect


Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Psychic
- Trick Room
- Protect

Amoonguss @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 180 Def / 80 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Sludge Bomb
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Protect

Hoopa-Unbound @ Psychic Seed
Ability: Magician
EVs: 164 HP / 120 Def / 224 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Hyperspace Fury
- Hyperspace Hole
- Trick Room
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Red Card
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Rock Slide

Heatran @ Grassium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 7 Spe
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Protect

Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Dazzling Gleam
- Nature's Madness


Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Protect

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Swagger
- Protect

Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 112 SpD / 144 Spe
Calm Nature
- Scald
- U-turn
- Tailwind
- Protect

Kingdra @ Waterium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Muddy Water
- Swagger
- Protect

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Swagger

Shaymin-Sky @ Focus Sash
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Protect


Marshadow @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Protect

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
- Protect

Pelipper @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 112 SpD / 144 Spe
Calm Nature
- Scald
- U-turn
- Tailwind
- Protect

Kingdra @ Waterium Z
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Muddy Water
- Swagger
- Protect

Tapu Koko @ Life Orb
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Swagger

Landorus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 140 HP / 252 Atk / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Knock Off
- U-turn
 
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#60
i very much contest the idea of banning swagger over marshadow. side swaggering is a completely valid strategy, and no other implementation of the move is nearly as stupid or "broken" as swagger + spectral thief. Smogon's precedent has always been that if a move or ability is only broken on one mon, then you ban the mon, but if it is broken (or at least disproportionately good) on every mon, or many mons, you ban the move instead.

for example, in gen 5, Blaziken was banned instead of banning speed boost. this is because it was determined that speed boost itself didn't make a pokemon "broken." scollipede and ninjask with the ability were clearly not banworthy.

On the other hand, double team was banned on its own because whichever pokemon was using it, the game was ruined.

The doubles community is at a point where it needs to decide which situation we are currently in, and for me, It is definitely a case of the former instance. Regardless, I think that a little time should be allowed to pass with the current metagame before any decision is made. a lot of people are quick to jump the gun on ban calls, that often can be accounted for in a metagame shift. it just takes time for this to happen always.

Also checkmater failed to link the two games where i bodied him with marshadow sun. sad really :/

you can have the team here if you want some easy laddering. I hit the #2 spot before falling with a 92.7% gxe with this shit

Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Protect

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Explosion
- Ice Beam

Kyurem-Black @ Assault Vest
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 168 SpA / 88 Spe
Quiet Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt
- Icy Wind

Tapu Fini @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Misty Surge
EVs: 252 HP / 184 SpA / 72 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Swagger
- Moonblast
- Muddy Water
- Protect

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Protect

Landorus-Therian @ Mago Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Atk / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
 

miltankmilk

**hypnotic recorder plays in background**
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#61
i very much contest the idea of banning swagger over marshadow. side swaggering is a completely valid strategy, and no other implementation of the move is nearly as stupid or "broken" as swagger + spectral thief. Smogon's precedent has always been that if a move or ability is only broken on one mon, then you ban the mon, but if it is broken (or at least disproportionately good) on every mon, or many mons, you ban the move instead.

for example, in gen 5, Blaziken was banned instead of banning speed boost. this is because it was determined that speed boost itself didn't make a pokemon "broken." scollipede and ninjask with the ability were clearly not banworthy.

On the other hand, double team was banned on its own because whichever pokemon was using it, the game was ruined.

The doubles community is at a point where it needs to decide which situation we are currently in, and for me, It is definitely a case of the former instance. Regardless, I think that a little time should be allowed to pass with the current metagame before any decision is made. a lot of people are quick to jump the gun on ban calls, that often can be accounted for in a metagame shift. it just takes time for this to happen always.

Also checkmater failed to link the two games where i bodied him with marshadow sun. sad really :/

you can have the team here if you want some easy laddering. I hit the #2 spot before falling with a 92.7% gxe with this shit
I think you're kind of missing the points people are trying to make in this thread regarding swagger. The reasons for a potential swagger ban in Gen6 DOU and Gen7 DOU are completely different. You are correct in asserting that swagger has mostly legitimate uses in SM and that is the problem. Side Swagger and now this swagger + spectral thief are not seeking to abuse the confusion mechanics, shut down some kind of bulky calm mind user or use it as a general panic button; these options are used specifically to boost one of your own attackers without these set-up sweepers having to take turns or moveslots to do it themselves. I think one of the biggest problems here is that throwing Swagger Tapu Fini on a team is not burdensome to teambuilding or in-game play as Tapu Fini is such a good, versatile pokemon that soft checks much of the metagame.

You've confused gen6 Swagger and gen7 Swagger and these two moves are about as comparable as ORAS Kanga and SM Kanga. There are inherent similarities but ultimately were suspected (and banned in one case) for different reasons.
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
#62
Reiterating that sideswagger is not limited to Fini, I and others (Croven..?) have found strong success using it to turn what would be a mon that loses to fini into a fini lure. Essentially capitalizing on fini coming in to sideswag your own metagross,hoopa,etc and thereafter winning. This is demonstrated well in Croven vs Frania during DPL as well as aforementioned replay 3 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7doublesou-600500773. Therefore, if you want to ban swagger to keep marshadow in check you're indirectly nuking sideswag as a method of beating opposing fini as well as finis running it themselves, which is collateral meta change that we don't need.

Ideally if we find swagger+spectral thief to be broken we would ban swaggering opponents, but I think Hashtag is correct on this point that precedent favors banning Marshadow. Say we think that Marsh is broken in the current meta, instead of trying to ban its moves/abilities/interactions (in this case swagger) we should ban Marshadow itself. Though I would argue that the mechanic is more nuanced in this case and is more a specific interaction that makes marshadow powerful as opposed to something like speed boost which is integral to Blaziken's kit.

-----
Milk

I think you're misreading Hashtag's post. He addresses the fact that Swagger has other uses in saying that those other uses aren't broken, not saying "ahh confusion hax abuse" so your gen 6 / 7 interpretation is a strawman, since that's not his argument, as he makes no comment on gen 6 Swagger. As for "fini swagger is broken" I personally don't believe so, especially if we keep Gardevoir around. It's not like we were calling for a Swagger ban beforehand so I really don't think swagger fini is banworthy in its own right, which it would have to be for us to favour banning Swagger imo.
 
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Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
#63
doubleposting to say that this entire conflict is mostly sidestepped if we (IN THE HYPOTHETICAL WHERE WE FIND SWAGGER+MARSH TO BE OVERPOWERING) just ban using swagger on opps
 

miltankmilk

**hypnotic recorder plays in background**
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#64
doubleposting to say that this entire conflict is mostly sidestepped if we (IN THE HYPOTHETICAL WHERE WE FIND SWAGGER+MARSH TO BE OVERPOWERING) just ban using swagger on opps
No you literally are not understanding what I said. Im literally saying that side swagger is the problem.

edit: also I'm pretty sure some council members were trying to look at swagger before marshadow.
 
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Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
#65
If you do a vote on banning swagger on opps you can do a vote on banning swagger in general afterwards. By conflating the two votes (which I supposed could be because of a policy nuance) you potentially force voters/council members to vote to ban sideswagger when they really just hate swagger+spectral thief.

Let's say I am Kamikaze and I think swagger+spectral thief is broken. However, I don't think sideswag is broken. My aforementioned method of voting allows my vote to best represent my interests. Whereas if it was just a swagger vote I could be forced to vote to ban sideswag when I don't want to.

Don't see the need to be rude and I really do think you're missing the full picture. There are two things being talked about: how the vote should happen (ie what should be voted on, and how) and whether or not certain things are overly powerful.

I will add (as a side note arguing about whether or not things are broken, not the way the vote should happen) that I think it's weird to contend that side swagger is still broken so strongly when we literally just got 2 arguably tier 1 mons introduced into the meta. Where are you getting your data from?
 
#66
Wanting to echo what qsns said with set-up being overwhelming this generation. The problem is there's no single, clear culprit or even pair of culprits like azu-rachi in XY. I thought removing Jirachi and Kang would help, but the meta has just devolved into a really stale positioning contest where KOing a pokemon at the wrong time can often cost the game. Some of the more common set-up sweepers at the moment are Snorlax, Zygarde, Mence, Fini and the occasional PZ. There's not one thing that stops all of these without resorting to using Haze, (which has been dismissed as far to niche to warrant in teambuilding; see EvoBoost, Jirachi+booster), or some other really niche tech move.

I feel like the argument against Haze has changed. Here was the argument back then.
3) Haze

Now comes the good stuff. I'm not going to make paint a picture of how shit of a move Haze is in Doubles, because I respect the move and try myself to make it work. It doesn't get redirected, so it's much better at countering setup strategies (EV-pass obviously included), and it can go through Protect. What's more is, Haze isn't only for targeting enemy setup, it can also be used to refresh Pokemon, who have used moves that lower their own stats, even through their Protect use. This can be a gamewinner for an ally pokemon such as Draco Meteor Latios, Overheat Zard, and one of my personal favourites: Mixed Chicken with Overheat and Superpower. The main problem with Haze is that it just simply has terrible distribution.

The only actual potential viable users of this move are Blastoise, Milotic, Darkrai, and Tapu Fini (e: Volc too!). I guess you could also try it on Zygarde, but how often is that going to be more useful than one of Espeed / DDance / Glare? I'll tell you when! Only if you meet this stupid team I built.
There are clearly way more times that Haze is going to be useful in this current meta than in the EvoBoost meta. While it may not stop Spec. Thief + Swagger (what pokemon has the exact speeds to fall in between koko and marshadow with haze), it definitely stops some of the other setups like Coil milotic, ddancers, quiver dancers, curselax, sideswag to an extent, CM cress, curse ferro, Z-conversion Pory-Z, and resets boosts gained from misty seed/psychic seed. I feel as if setup (and seeds) has become this common, Haze shouldn't be considered a very niche move useful only in a very limited number of cases. There are other adaptations which have happened towards setup which would've been considered niche, but now perfectly viable strategies, so why not Haze? Clear Smog Amoonguss is probably the best example of this, Hashtag has made use of a Clear Smog Kingdra in DPL, and an unexpected Roar/Whirlwind can help you get back in an otherwise unwinnable game (source: experience)

Just looking at these posts, it just feels like people are complaining about setup while at the same time dismissing the obvious solutions as niche and very bad teambuilding, which is very frustrating.
 

MajorBowman

so come alive
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Doubles Colonel
#67
Is it even possible to ban "using swagger against opponents?" Like how do you even code that? That argument seems really wild to me and certainly would be a complex ban, which I'm told we avoid at all costs. I'll post more thoughts after I get home from work today but I think we need to move away from the idea that we can ban targeting certain slots with a specific move because I really don't think that will ever happen.
 

miltankmilk

**hypnotic recorder plays in background**
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#68
I feel like the argument against Haze has changed. Here was the argument back then.


There are clearly way more times that Haze is going to be useful in this current meta than in the EvoBoost meta. While it may not stop Spec. Thief + Swagger (what pokemon has the exact speeds to fall in between koko and marshadow with haze), it definitely stops some of the other setups like Coil milotic, ddancers, quiver dancers, curselax, sideswag to an extent, CM cress, curse ferro, Z-conversion Pory-Z, and resets boosts gained from misty seed/psychic seed. I feel as if setup (and seeds) has become this common, Haze shouldn't be considered a very niche move useful only in a very limited number of cases. There are other adaptations which have happened towards setup which would've been considered niche, but now perfectly viable strategies, so why not Haze? Clear Smog Amoonguss is probably the best example of this, Hashtag has made use of a Clear Smog Kingdra in DPL, and an unexpected Roar/Whirlwind can help you get back in an otherwise unwinnable game (source: experience)

Just looking at these posts, it just feels like people are complaining about setup while at the same time dismissing the obvious solutions as niche and very bad teambuilding, which is very frustrating.
Ok there's still the same problem of Haze being poorly distributed among viable pokemon and it is even harder to fit Haze onto the viable pokemon that have them. The pokemon that I have previously used Haze on have been Milotic and Volcanion so I'll use these as examples for why Haze is not a viable answer to set-up in SM. Milotic really needs to run at least Water Stab, an Ice move, Recover and the 4th slot is usually protect. There's really nothing you can afford to drop here outside of Protect, (either you become set-up fodder for Heatran, Mence/Zyg or you lose survivability) and dropping tect also lowers your survivability. Volcanion is pretty borderline in terms of viability and its mainly due to the AV set. Without AV Volcanion really struggles in the Tapu-meta and losing to the set-up dragons. Haze is obviously impossible to fit on AV volcanion and non-AV volcanion struggles to be a viable pokemon in today's meta. Fini can sort of fit Haze on it but at that point you're using your own fini as an answer to how opponents Fini+Set-Up which is fine but then you lose valuable moveslots on your own Fini, (which can potentially make set-up harder for your own team).

TLDR: Haze is really only viable on Tapu Fini and on Fini its a niche option, there's still not a difference in how difficult it is to fit Haze on a pokemon. Clear smog is probably a fine option though but still subject to redirection.
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
#69
Is it even possible to ban "using swagger against opponents?" Like how do you even code that? That argument seems really wild to me and certainly would be a complex ban, which I'm told we avoid at all costs. I'll post more thoughts after I get home from work today but I think we need to move away from the idea that we can ban targeting certain slots with a specific move because I really don't think that will ever happen.
I did mention policy as a limiting factor but there is precedent for this

In this post http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...wagger-is-banned.3569913/page-10#post-6935868
Kamikaze presents the council vote as picking of two options: banning swagger entirely, or Confusion Clause Mod, which is
- Moves whose primary effect is Confusion will fail if used on the opponent. This will effect the following moves: Swagger, Supersonic, Confuse Ray, Sweet Kiss, and Flatter. Dynamic Punch is exempt
Which, in the current meta, would effectively mean banning Swagger from being used on opps.
I would definitely assume it could be coded, but as for whether or not it should be the vote that is a different discussion. In my opinion, there are two aspects of swagger at play, the swagger+sthief combo and sideswag utilization. Instead of grouping the two together into a swagger vote we should first look at swagger+sthief, and then afterwards we can hold a vote for banning all of swagger.
 

MajorBowman

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Doubles Colonel
#70
Alright so first of all I want to apologize for my seemingly low involvement recently. I couldn't participate in the kang suspect so I didn't really post anything about it and the council hasn't really done much since then so I haven't been forced to take action. We've talked a bit behind the scenes about the metagame but obviously nothing has been done since kang was banned 3 months ago and I feel bad about that. So I'm sorry for not being more proactive personally when it comes to managing DOU, I owe you guys more than that.

For the sake of avoiding reiteration I'm not going to talk about Lopunny or Gardevoir or any of the other recent releases except Marshadow because other people have already said a good amount about them and I think we all agree they don't need to be addressed. Marshadow, on the other hand, throws an interesting wrench into our metagame. Its base Speed makes it a big threat to a lot of things, as the only truly viable pokemon in the meta that naturally outspeed it are Tapu Koko, Mega Aerodactyl, Deoxys-A, and Mega Gengar, but Marshadow can OHKO the latter two with Shadow Sneak anyway. It's a great check to the Fighting-weak Pokemon that have enjoyed a meta without fighting types so far, like Snorlax and Tyranitar, and it's a decent soft check to anything else that likes to set up or happens to be weak to its stabs (Tapu Lele, Heatran, seed Zapdos, CM Fini, etc). It can even take advantage of Technician and run HP Ice to donk Mega Salamence, Landorus, and Zygarde.

Marshadow also presents an interesting case due to the way it interacts with Swagger. Previously, Swagger was (almost?) exclusively used with Tapu Fini as a means to boost an ally's attack, as the nerfs to confusion and swagger itself made spamming it against opponents less fruitful. However, the introduction of Spectral Thief means that not only can Tapu Fini boost yet another top tier threat, but other Pokemon will start running swagger to target opponents so Marshadow can steal the boost and leave the opposing pokemon confused. I've seen it on Tapu Koko and Mega Aerodactyl, and I'm sure others have been using it on different fast mons to the same effect.

While nothing in the metagame since the Kang ban has stood out to me as broken, the tendency of this metagame to promote slow setup (curse lax/ferro, swagger/heal pulse fini) is something a lot of people have complained about, and I honestly agree with them. One wrong step against these bulky setup teams can auto lose games, which I don't think contributes to an entirely healthy environment for both teambuilding and battling.

However, what exactly is the problem? What can we do to make the metagame more favorable to a wider variety of teams? I think in the case of this slower setup trend we've seen, most people have identified Tapu Fini as the enabler. It can actively support setup with either the swagger/heal pulse set or by setting up itself with calm mind, but it also passively supports setup with misty terrain. Not only does misty terrain block status, which has historically been a good way to deter setup stuff, but it also cancels the power boost from the other 3 terrains, allowing its partners to take less damage while they go about their business. It also happens to have a typing that lets it check a lot of threats to potential partners, specifically when it comes to snorlax and fighting types. I tend to agree here, as without Fini around there would be a lot more counterplay to setup.

So if we're identifying Tapu Fini as the issue here, why not just suspect Fini? I think Fini, while enabling a specific playstyle and discouraging others, isn't inherently broken itself. It has to rely on its partners to be the ones actually doing damage and doesn't pose much of a threat itself unless it starts setting up calm minds, in which case it's demonstrably less of an enabler.

I also thing suspecting and banning tapu fini is a huge slippery slope. If we were to ban fini outright, the other three terrains would objectively become a lot better. The terrains introduced a whole new balance into DOU that I think has been mainly healthy so far, but losing one of them would be pretty devastating. Stuff like PsySpam would be a lot more difficult to handle without Fini, as Fini is really the only tapu that can comfortably switch into an attack from Lele or (kinda) Deo-A. Sleep also gets a lot better if we lose fini since we would lose one of the terrains that prevent it, and I think sleep is probably in the most healthy state it's ever been. I don't want to focus on specific examples here, my general point is that losing Tapu Fini and therefore Misty Terrain would cause more harm than good.

One option that has come up in council chat and has been thrown around in the general discord is just banning Swagger as a whole. Keep in mind this had been talked about before Marshadow was released and is not a new, knee jerk reaction to Marshadow. Self Swagger has been one of Fini's strongest sets and completely neuters options like Intimidate that have been used to check physical set up in the past. Marshadow's introduction only provides another use for Swagger, and one that promotes the use of it in the way that got it banned in gen 6. If people are going to be running Swagger on random mons with the intent of targeting their opponents, it grows closer and closer to the monster that it was back in ORAS.

In my opinion, Marshadow and Tapu Fini are not the problems themselves, but the types of playstyles and move choices they promote are what causes issues for the tier. If we can find a way to balance the tier while leaving these two intact, I think that's the healthiest state we can create for the metagame right now. While we have a couple options, such as instituting some confusion clause that doesn't allow you to target opponents with swagger, they don't fix the previous problem with Tapu Fini and the swagpulse set. If Swagger is being reintroduced to our metagame as a means of disrupting opponents and has already had arguably overbearing use as a means of self promotion, it's getting to a point where something needs to be done. For these reasons, I think we should ban Swagger outright.

I'm certainly open to hearing other suggestions, but for now that's where I stand. Thanks for reading my giant wall of text, I definitely didn't expect to write this much lol

tl;dr - marshadow and fini aren't broken or unhealthy. swagger is the issue, ban that shit

edit: just to clarify these are my personal opinions and not a general consensus of the council
 
#71
although the contents of this post do not allign with my previously stated opinions, i can definitely abide by this potential decision. i didn't realize so many people felt so strongly about swagger fini in the first place. but more importantly for me, this is a consistent solution with regards to policy and it definitely has my support.

I also think i speak for a lot of people when i say that i really appreciate it when someone from the council comes forth and gives a statement on where council discussions stand mid-"crisis" like this. so thanks.
 
#72
Ok I've been trying to write this post for a day now and cant get it right so apologies in advance if my thoughts seem jumbled.

I dont personally think theres a problem with the meta now marshadow has been released. Lots of these bulkier teams we are used to seeing get steamrolled by it. bulky teams are now forced to teambuild differently otherwise its gg vs marshadow. it forces the bulky team to also play as well as the opposing team because one mistake on their end and marshadow is taking the boosts and countersweeping. zapdos cant just sit there forever and twind etc because marshadow takes the +1 spdef and becomes harder to take down.

It means that faster offense is now a lot more viable while bulky set up stuff is no less viable because there are obv mons that can take a hit from marshadow, like celesteela and fini. basically im saying that the viability of certain mons/playstyles (except milotic but that coil set was aids anyway) hasnt decreased but marshadow has only increased the viability of other playstyles.

on the topic of swagger, thankfully we dont see swagger usage just to confuse which is good. i also dont think its banworthy because once again, you run the risk of marshadow just stealing the boosts and taking out half a team. with lax, it takes 65 min from a cc at +1 so with a bit of prior damage you are koing it, and lax has become very manageable as the meta has developed.

Because fini is slow (comparatively to the rest of the meta that is) it means you either run a mon slower than it to get the boost before attacking, in which case you get targeted before attacking by the opposing team too. Or you run a mon faster to get the hit off quickly, but then attack before getting the boost. also i cant think of any mons off the top of my head that are fast, physical and grounded (mmence, maero and lando t, i may just be being silly), except marshadow but without a boost it really isnt that strong, like spectral thief is only 90 bp.

The whole swagger + spectral thief thing sounds good in theory, but in practise its slightly harder to execute i think. In the games ive played vs it ive never really had an issue. it forces you to double target one mon leaving the other mon to do damage, and marshadow/koko arent the bulkiest things on the planet. you may ko one or two mons max.

I may just have this viewpoint because ive never had trouble dealing with marshadow/swagger. Ive had more issues with fini but as bowman said, a fini ban would cause far more problems than it would solve. Also i fully agree with the sentiment that sm hasn't been very fun at all for some time, but with marshadow we can now see a lot more variety in teambuilds and i think the meta will become a lot more fun, no need to ban something just to make a meta more enjoyable imo.

tl;dr i dont think anything needs banning atm.

You guys are thinking of banning swagger in the wrong meta imo.
 
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#73
So on the subject of Marshadow. I at first believed it was a total bitch to fight against. But tbh I believe its just due to the way this meta has settled down as of recently. All these teams are mostly just super fat setup mons, where one misstep will ruin you. Marshadow lives for these things. Spectral Thief forces you to think of the how and when more than ever. And makes a more offensive playstyle more viable again, which I like. And anything that can dick on Milotic, Zapdos, and CurseLax is fine in my eyes.

Marshadow is also not exactly invincible. In this meta, its bulk, while respectable, isn't really anything to ride home about. It still drops to most SE STAB and is easily 2HKO'd by SE coverage. And several mons can easily swallow its blows if unboosted. 125 isn't exactly THAT scary unless its either boosted or throwing a Super Saiyan Z-move at your ass.

As far as Swaggar goes, I personally don't care for it, but as I've played the Marshadow matchup, I don't see it as super overpowering and overwhelming like I used to. More offensive teams can take it on relatively well so long as you can effectively outspeed or outfat the thing. And with mons such as Tapu Fini, Celesteela, Deoxys-A, Tapi a rise in scarf Tapu Lele, and Landorus-Therian running around, and the prominancs if Trick Room these days, I think Marshadow is certainly held back enough to merit its place in the metagame. And let's be real here. We're all tired of the same fat bullsh*t we've been building for the last few months. I'm sure we all could appreciate some change. And with the Swaggar rise, I could see Tapu Lele and in consequence PsySpam making a rise as not a lot appreciates a +2 Tech STAB Shadow Sneak off 125Atk lol. But going back from ORAS DOU and Kang and Mawile's Sucker Punch at +2, its not like it's something ludicrous or unherd of that we're dealing with here. Maybe that's my mentality as an Offence/HO veteran, but oh well that's how I see it lol

Anyways, as of now, I don't see Swaggar or Marshadow in need of an immediate ban. I feel we just need to give the meta a bit of time to adapt to the new threat and new environment we're now occupying ^_^
But if anything at all, I'd say ban Swagger before we even touch Marshadow. Marshadow itself really isn't a big deal imo
 
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#74
Marshadow has recently been banned in Smogon's SuMo OU (this is not the subject of the thread, please discuss that somewhere else if you'd like to), but that doesn't mean that we can't find his potential in Doubles. Marshadow's excellent 90/125/80/90/90/125 stat spread allows his to be an excellent fast attacker and a great asset for teams that require a solid Z-Move attacker and Fighting type STAB.

The very first partner that comes to mind is Mega Salamence. Mega Salamence is practically required to run either Earthquake, Fire Blast, or a partner that can take care of Steel types so that it can either Tailwind for the party or Dragon Dance to get massive damage. With Marshadow as it's partner, it's tempting to run Roost, D Dance, and Return as 3 of your 4 moves. While Marshadow will not always be around to kill off Steel types, it certainly has the longevity and power to help Mence pull off a D Dance sweep.

The problem with the Salemence Marshadow core is their weakness to Fairy types, namely Fini, Lele, and Koko. To help alleviate this issue, Sash or Life Orb Gengar can alleviate the stress that Fairy types apply to this beloved Dragon/Flying and Fighting/Ghost core. In return Marshadow helps Gengar spam Ghost moves against the opponent, with Marshadow providing protecting against the Dark types that would threaten Gengar (Marshadow is neutral to Dark, but has good enough bulk to take some punishment).

Speaking of Fini, Tapu Fini forms a great core of Ghost/Fighting + Water/Fairy, and protects Marshadow against status, boosts it with Misty Terrain Swagger, heals it with Heal Pulse, or provides general utility by defeating Mega Mence and Landorus-T. Overall, any offensive or defensive Fairy type appreciates what Marshadow can do for it. Ghost/Fighting has no resists in the entire meta game, and Marshadow's offense is good enough to punch holes early in the game.

While Trick Room is often set by Psychic types, Marshadow still struggles against the Trick Room play style. It has good bulk, but double targeting while kill it quickly. Counter acting Trick Room with common TR checks like Mega Gengar, Weavile, Hoopa-U, and Hydreigon can help Marshadow over come that obstacle. Generally speaking, Marshadow is an excellent addition to most teams. He should perform well within the Doubles OU meta game, and has many perks to apply to his teammates.
 
#75
Wanting to echo what qsns said with set-up being overwhelming this generation. The problem is there's no single, clear culprit or even pair of culprits like azu-rachi in XY. I thought removing Jirachi and Kang would help, but the meta has just devolved into a really stale positioning contest where KOing a pokemon at the wrong time can often cost the game. Some of the more common set-up sweepers at the moment are Snorlax, Zygarde, Mence, Fini and the occasional PZ. There's not one thing that stops all of these without resorting to using Haze, (which has been dismissed as far to niche to warrant in teambuilding; see EvoBoost, Jirachi+booster), or some other really niche tech move.

Something qsns and I were talking about earlier as a problem to the metagame is Tapu Fini. The calm mind set, to me, is not a problem in any aspect but the 'SwagPulse' set has become incredibly frustrating when attempting to stop opposing set-up. Specifically with lax and Zygarde, Status and Intimidate could be really useful tools when trying to stop a potential lax or zygarde sweep but Fini can take these options away with side Swagger and Misty Terrain. Fini also makes it really difficult stop set up unless you can do it in one hit or after you remove fini, with its heal pulse often acting as a passive-redirection that forces the opponent to target the Fini before they can address the Lax/Zygarde/etc that's actually removing your pokemon every turn.

People have talked about banning swagger, looking at Lax or a few other options for addressing what many would call an undesirable metagame, but maybe we should take a closer look at the effect Tapu Fini has on the meta and how many different pokemon it enables with its SwagPulse set.
I strongly disagree with this. As we all know, Swagger had an accuracy nerf, is stopped by Misty Terrain, and Prankster Mons have a harder time with it in SuMo due to Psychic Terrain. Tapu Fini's crime is that it works well in the lift of the Swagger ban. I do agree that setting up in Doubles is a monster at the time of writing, but I do not believe that a suspect on Fini would alleviate the issue entirely. It goes in the same vein that some may say that Marshadow is broken due to Marshadow's ability to work with the move Swagger. Before you consider suspect Fini, why not ban Swagger for a good while and see how the playing field changes? It would stop complaints about the shiny and new Marshadow's Spectral Thief, and it may help with the power that Fini gives to the team. I myself know first hand how powerful SwaggerTerrain is, for I use Fini+Khan in Battle Spot Doubles. BSD's static banlist and lack of care for controversial moves prevents a movement against SwaggerTerrain, but the Smogon communities ability to work together and have thoughtful discussion together could move this strategy into a different light and consequence.
As an edited note, I want to say that banning Fini might just look embarrassing for the Smogon DOU community.
 
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