Metagame np: DOU Stage 2 - Mama Said Knock You Out | Kangaskhanite is Banned | Swagger is Banned

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kamikaze

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#76
There has been ongoing discussion since last month among the council about the impact of Tapu Fini in the metagame and a few of us have identified Swagger as a potential issue. Now more recently swagger is being used in conjunction with Marshadow for stealing boosts with the bonus of a minor yet existent confusion chance.

Unlike last gen where Swagger was looked at for its ability to sway games with its confusion chance, this gen we are looking into it due to its ability to speed up the setup process and make more immediate threats out of various pokemon in the metagame.

For these reasons and based on the discussion on the thread, the council has decided to do a council vote on solely the move Swagger.
 

talkingtree

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#77
I think I speak for most of the community when I say that I'm very thankful the council has come to the decision to take a vote on Swagger's presence in the metagame. Most of what can be said about Swagger has already been said but I haven't really seen a post that sums up the way I personally feel so I'm going to take a stab at it in the hopes that it helps someone.

When I saw the main changes to Gen 7, my first impression was that Swagger seemed like it would finally be a healthy and interesting part of the metagame, with the many Prankster nerfs weakening Swagger for the sake of confusion and the presence of Misty Terrain to promote SideSwag. The element that critics mourned the loss of when Swagger finally left became the more prevalent one, and I was pretty sure it would be here to stay. However, that was when Tapu Fini was regarded as potentially the worst of the island guardians, Snorlax was practically unheard of, and Kang/Jirachi were clearly bigger contributors to the shaping of the meta.

The main issue with Swagger now is the sheer number of Pokemon that can become highly threatening with even one well-timed Swagger, from Marshadow benefitting by stealing the boosts and then attacking, Snorlax needing far fewer turns to become threatening, and weaker physical attackers like Ferrothorn and Zygarde suddenly nabbing tons of KOs. Normal counterplay to setup sweepers in Intimidate, Will-O-Wisp, Taunting the setup user, and sheer offensive pressure aren't possible when Tapu Fini is around to outboost Intimidate, block Will-O-Wisp, and heal up the threat faster than it can be damaged. In this way, Tapu Fini became a threat to Doubles in a similar way that Jirachi did, just not as outwardly so. In order to avoid being thrashed by one of the many powerful beneficiaries of Swagger, players are often forced to take out Tapu Fini as quickly as possible, no easy task when faced with a 70/115/130 Defensive tank with a solid defensive typing and pinch berries to give it a new lease on life once you get close to a KO.

Without Swagger, Tapu Fini clearly is not an issue, as its ability to turn any physical attacker into a setup sweeper without taking up one of their moveslots is removed. The main reason Doubles hadn't been so setup oriented in generations past was the necessity of Protect keeping them from finding room for a setup move, but with Swagger taking up only one slot for the whole team to potentially benefit, the meta quickly took a turn towards favoring obscenely setup-focused teams. Just take a look at some of the teams used in this most recent seasonal, which found success due to their ability to overwhelm foes that were stretched thin to check every setup-based attacker.

However, the same cannot be said for the reverse. Without Tapu Fini, Swagger still has plenty of potential to be a quite frustrating element of the game that has little counterplay. Though this is purely conjecture, I believe it would likely experience a bit of resurgence in its use as a last-ditch check-all in relying on confusion hits without Misty Terrain to block this side-effect. Swagger doesn't clearly fall under any of the buzzwords people typically use to discuss potentially ban-worthy elements of the metagame, but I believe that a metagame without Swagger would be a vast improvement from the current one. For this reason, I'm urging the council to vote to Ban Swagger.
 

kamikaze

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#78
SM Swagger Vote
A. Ban Swagger
B. Do Not Ban Swagger

A. Ban Swagger

SM Doubles is a tier highly oriented around setup where there are multiple big threats that dictate the pace of the game based on whether or not their setup is contained or able to run rampant.

When looking at the metagame one of the most dominant pokemon in the metagame that enabled setup was Tapu Fini. Tapu Fini using Heal Pulse allowed Setup sweepers to gain increased longevity and it was able to use Swagger to bolster some physical threats with boosts. Some specific physical partners that abused Swagger from Tapu Fini are Snorlax, Zygarde, Hoopa-U. Snorlax and Zygarde in particular have issues with becoming an immediate threat because setting up with Curse and Dragon Dance respectively gets easily slowed down by Intimidate being so omnipresent and due to them lacking a strong attack stat(exception being the Belly Drum set on Snorlax). Swagger completely took that weakness out of the equation and enabled to actually have a great deal more offensive pressure and sweep through teams much quicker and in some cases ways that would have been impossible without Swagger's intervention.

With Marshadow's entrance into the tier Swagger began to be used on other pokemon who would outspeed and Swagger an opposing pokemon for Marshadow to steal with Spectral Thief as well as leave behind a bonus Confusion chance on the opposing pokemon. This started to actually become a serious viable strategy as opposed to just a random gimmick and added on to the amount of turn by turn pressure the metagame has with containing setup. And in Marshadow's case its often faster than most threats on the opposing team so the Swagger setup generally happens and is harder to interrupt as it generally also has a partner faster than itself.

Its not rare for people to have multiple pokemon able to abuse Swagger and completely wear down the opponent from multiple setup sweepers as each one rips a hole in the opposing team to do enough damage to the point where the opponent has difficulty mounting a comeback. I dont view Swagger as something positive for the metagame as I believe that continuously encouraging heavy setup puts an extreme amount of pressure on turn by turn decisions where even 1 mistake or crucial setup turn can dictate the game.

A. Ban Swagger

Ban Swagger, with the environment as it is as of now, simply swings tempo too to one side at an unfair rate. With the ease of how Swagger can be used as a dangerous pace-pushing tool in conjunction with Misty Terrain and / or Marshadow, teams can easily find themselves overwhelmed and hard-pressed to keep up and dealing with the plethora of boosting threats in the metagame.

With the metagame’s pace as it is, suddenly having threats get boosts while they also get to utilize the boosts on the same turn just puts too much power onto one side; there’s also considering that status is at the same time no counterplay, Intimidate can only do so much as a threat can still sting with +1 blows, and Taunt forces the choice of having to block only one of two forms of setup (usually). In a game where positioning can matter so much, Swagger can just enable threats to blow through opposing teams all too quickly.

While we can ban Tapu Fini instead as it is for the most part what enables Swagger as a threat-pushing tool, I feel that banning Swagger is more ideal in this case. While it does look like a case of “banning a part to keep the whole” which is something that is usually avoided, Swagger itself can be utilized on a bunch of other Pokemon and can also be run in conjunction with Marshadow (it is notable that Swagger can be utilized disruptively in conjunction with it). There are other ways to utilize the strategy that does not rely on Tapu Fini alone (though it is the most ideal). Though I don’t like to consider the slippery slope, I do feel that keeping Tapu Fini without the ability to make hasten a game would be better for the tier overall as the the terrain would keep the other Island Guardians in check and its presence as a bulky threat is fine; in addition, Tapu Fini itself is not inherently broken.

The metagame as it is, with boosting omnipresecent and relatively slower compared to the past, is acceptable, but Swagger just pushes the speed of the game to an unhealthy point.

B. Do Not Ban Swagger

Personally I feel this vote could go either way but at the moment I think the meta has more pressing issues than Swagger. Things like Rain Psyspam create a really unhealthy game environment in which games come down to coinflips rather than just positioning. Additionally, I think a Marshadow suspect should come first, as its unresisted coverage, huge movepool, and excellent stats combine to create something that I really don't think is healthy for a metagame given how difficult it is to position around and build for. I think there's a lot of underexplored counterplay to Fini that can be used, Pokemon like Amoonguss handle Fini really well and redirect Swagger, trapping with things like MGar and Gothitelle restrict what Fini can boost, and moves like Haze are distributed to a lot of mons and should be used more liberally in a setup heavy meta. I think banning Swagger is a step in the wrong direction and severely nerfs bulky balance and removes a strong aspect of one of the only good rain checks in the meta.

Abstain

A. Ban Swagger

After being reintroduced to the DOU metagame in Sun and Moon, it was assumed that Swagger would have much less of an affect due to the independent nerfs to Prankster (Psychic Terrain, doesn’t affect Dark types), status in general (Misty Terrain), confusion specifically (30% chance to hit yourself instead of 50%), and the move Swagger itself (accuracy dropped to 85%). However, Swagger quickly became a staple on Tapu Fini, as it was able to abuse its own Misty Terrain by boosting its partners’ Attack without worrying about the confusion rolls. This quickly led to the metagame being dominated by Tapu Fini and fat partners that didn’t have to worry about status or keeping themselves healthy. When Marshadow was released, Swagger became even more relevant. Targeting an opponent with Swagger and then stealing the Attack boosts with Spectral Thief not only boosts Marshadow to incredibly threatening levels, but also leaves the opponent confused. This is nearing the danger zone that led to Swagger’s ban in ORAS DOU, as targeting opponents not only directly benefits your partner but can create situations in which Swagger can steal games that should have otherwise been lost. Due to the volatile situations Swagger can create, as well as its strong and arguably negative influence on shaping the metagame even before Marshadow’s release, I vote to Ban Swagger from DOU.

SM Swagger Vote
by shaian
1.1 Swagger as a move has historical precedent in being banned in the DOU metagame for reasons concerning the risk/reward value it possesses. Historically the relationship that defined this value was in the player-to-player interaction it could cause. Many players, including the DOU Council members, believed Swagger to be a move which initiated a “forced 50-50” situation in battle scenarios where one player had a demonstrably clear path to victory that could then be rendered useless by virtue of Swagger mechanics. It should also be noted that similar reasoning was applied towards the banning of Swagger in various other Smogon metagames outside of DOU.

1.2 It should also be noted that previous iterations of Swagger bans focused extensively on the prevalence of “Prankster Pokemon”. In the DOU metagame this was a discussion that largely concerned itself with the impact of Thundurus-I variants that made concurrent use of Thunder Wave and Swagger. Though by no means was Thundurus-I the only Pokemon that could make use of this particular combination of moves, it was the most prominent with Thundurus-I itself being a Pokemon that largely cycled between Tiers 1 and 1.5 in the Viability rankings. The viability of Thundurus-I in the previous iteration of a Swagger ban is of particular importance when concerning the discussion of a newer Swagger ban. A newer suspect would have to meet, at the very least, a similar level of frequency in the move itself within the dynamics of the metagame. If the move does not prove itself to be as frequently utilized, then the interactions that Swagger creates would then have to be proven to fall into a similar degree of effectiveness as previous Council votes, namely the quick banning of Eevium Z in early SM and the banning of Gravity + Sleep in mid-ORAS, both of which saw limited usage but were deemed too effective to have reasonable counter-play.

1.3 In the public suspect testing of Shaymin-S in ORAS, one of the primary areas of concern that I had looked into when giving my judgement was the issue of “hax” or “luck” — and the mechanisms in which players can mitigate their impacts in the course of a game. In that instance, I had determined that Shaymin-S when isolated from all other elements of the metagame was not necessarily broken, but possessed the right combination of elements to have a skewed risk:reward that heavily favours the player using Shaymin-S. In instances where the reward for utilizing an otherwise balanced move vastly outweighs any potential risk then that calls into question whether or not that particular element should be observed more in-depth. However, in the Shaymin-S suspect that particular risk:reward analysis observed interactions that were, as in the previous iteration of Swagger, largely player to player.

1.4 In the closed council votes regarding Eevium Z and Azumarill/Jirachi I discussed the nature of non-player-to-player interactions, and to what degree they should be regarded as unbalanced and balanced. In both instances I argued that Eevium Z and Azumarill operated in isolation — they would operate in the same fashion regardless of context. I also argued that both offered a substantial reward for minimal risk — though Eevium offered a very high initial opportunity cost to use as it begins with essentially playing a 5-on-6. Eevium Z also offered one more dynamic that is of particular importance to this vote, which is that Eevium Z possessed unique qualities that did not exist in similar instances prior to it — Eevium Z could not be stopped by the conventional counterplay to Baton Pass chains, Taunt.

1.5 Another particular issue to consider is the context of this vote. The primary application in previous generations and iterations of a Swagger ban focused on the player-to-player interaction. Player A would use Swagger on Player Bʼs Pokemon in order to create an “artificial 50/50” that would not occur otherwise. This argument concerns issues of risk:reward in instances where Player B now takes on increased risk for a reward that was not deliberately factored for — or, as was articulated by SamVGC in his vote, provided Player A with a non-skill based win condition. The current dynamic that is being explored is the usage of Swagger by Player A on another of Player Aʼs Pokemon — typically referred to as “Self-Swag”. In previous iterations, “Self-Swag” was used as a particular dynamic that justified keeping Swagger legal in competitive play, which makes this a much more contentious potential ban. The context in particular is also interesting. What is being argued as broken is a Tapu Fini with Swagger, and often Heal Pulse as well. This offers 2 unique qualities that did not exist in previous iterations of Swagger suspects. Previous iterations did not include a Pokemon which offered status immunity via its ability as Tapu Fini does, as previous iterations required the use of a Lum Berry to heal the confusion, or the use of Safeguard. As well, previous iterations did not offer a reliable method of healing, which Tapu Fini does.

1.6 The last particular is the issue of Smogon banning convention — banning the whole Pokemon as opposed to parts of it. The rhetoric surrounding this particular case is interesting as numerous positions have been articulated to some degree of positive or negative response. Banning Misty Terrain — in effect banning Tapu Fini has been mentioned, as has an outright Tapu Fini ban, banning the Swagger (and Heal Pulse) set, and the course we are exploring, which is a simple Swagger ban. Banning Swagger in SM DOU is the cleanest particular route as it does involve removing the element as a whole, rather than particular parts of it. However, and this is particularly important context, in the current DOU metagame the only notable Swagger user is Tapu Fini. From a simple observation of suspect rhetoric it could be reasonable argued that this course is a roundabout way of banning a part of Tapu Fini, rather than the Pokemon as a whole. However, the previous iteration that occurred in ORAS DOU established the precedent that Swagger could be banned in isolation, even in instances where there exists only a single prominent user of the move. What is missing in the contemporary issue however is that in the previous iteration there still existed a few other niche users of the move, such as Sableye, that are missing in the current metagame. This means that the particular unique qualities that Tapu Fini possesses when using Swagger will then have to be weighed up against the lack of niche Swagger users. Though it should be noted that again, this method of analysis does not dissuade against the argument that this particular vote is a roundabout means towards banning a part of Tapu Fini.

1.7 As this Council vote is seeking to explore removing an element from the metagame, rather than to include one, it should be proven that key qualities of the element create an unhealthy dynamic in metagame interaction. In particular, the qualities I will be examining are whether the frequency of the interaction occurs often enough that it could be argued as “centralizing” to the point of unhealthy in teambuilding, or failing the necessary frequency, provides enough of a reward for minimal risk that its presence in a game shifts the play options of the opposing player in a way that it concentrates on a particular moment on the game, rather than on their own particular win-conditions. What this means is that the player has to play in such a fashion that it prevents, or at least mitigates, a particular instance in the game from happening, regardless of whether or not it does happen, in order to avoid a subsequent series of turns that provide a near unavoidable loss — frequently referred to as “flow-charted”.

2.1 As previously mentioned, Swagger is being examined through the prominence of a support Tapu Fini set that makes use of Swagger and Heal Pulse in order to take advantage of Misty Terrain in order to provide +2 Atk boosts to Tapu Finis partner. Notable partners that have been explored throughout the evolution of the metagame have included Zygarde, Snorlax, and now Marshadow. Other partners have also seen use, such as Mega Mawile, Diancie, and Victini, though none have seen as prominent use.

2.2 It should be noted that the relative bulk of common Tapu Fini partners is a particularly important contextual component. Tapu Fini enables Pokemon to be both a dominating offensive presence, as well as a gravitating force defensively due to being able to concurrently bolster their offensive capabilities and resuscitate their HP as needed. This dual interaction creates a catch-22 situation that is at the heart of this vote, as players are often forced into a situation of having to choose between removing Tapu Fini as soon as possible, which creates a timeframe in which Tapu Finiʼs partner is given free rein to work on the opposing team; or they could opt to remove Tapu Finiʼs partner, at the risk of failing to secure the KO, which is not uncommon given the relative bulk of the common partners, and having Tapu Fini restore their HP.

2.3 The unique components of Tapu Fini in this instance is the presence of Misty Terrain, which is activated as Tapu Fini is brought into play, and the ability to run both Swagger and Heal Pulse. Their does exist counterplay options towards each of these components that, from a basic observation, do not pose a significant strain in the theoretical context of a battle, or in the teambuilding stage. The introduction of the Tapu Pokemon in the DOU metagame created a metagame in which the presence of a Terrain has become something of a necessity — if not, at the very least they provide the foundational elements to very strong and very common team archetypes. The most conventional counterplay towards opposing Terrains is to bring in a friendly Terrain, almost always through switching in ones own Tapu. As the Tapu Fini set that is the focal point of this vote is a support based set, it does not typically threaten Pokemon that are switching in that are not hit Super Effectively by its dual-STABS, bar the risk of a Muddy Water accuracy drop — Tapu Fini by itself does not dissuade the opponent from removing Misty Terrain. The support moves, Swagger and Heal Pulse, also have similarly simplistic counterplay. Both can be easily redirected by existing redirection users, with the most common redirection user in the metagame, Amoonguss, being a hardcounter to Tapu Fini. Misty Terrain also does not prevent Tapu Fini from being afflicted by Taunt — which did not work on Eevium Z and was a key factor towards its banning. As well, a well predicted switch-in and Terrain change can mean that Swagger will cause Tapu Fini to inflict confusion on its partner Pokemon, which creates a 50/50 dilemma. Overall, it can be reasonably assumed that the presence of Swagger + Heal Pulse Tapu Fini does not create a significant strain on the teambuilding stage, nor does it possess over burdening counterplay situations. The inclusion of an opposing Terrain, Taunt, or redirection does not require the use of overly niche Pokemon, nor does it require players to opt for highly specific move choices in order to avoid being “flow-charted”.

2.4 As mentioned, it is the prominence of bulky setup Pokemon in the metagame, most notably Snorlax, that has led to the concern over Swagger as an unhealthy presence in the metagame. These Pokemon are capable of taking advantage of the longevity and immediate offensive presence that Tapu Fini can provide, and create offensive gravity that does create “flow-chart” situations. Conventional gameplay options such as switching in opposing Terrain or utilizing Taunt have greatly reduced efficacy in these situations. Players are often reduced to having to position themselves through the course of the game in ways that allow them to effectively check either Tapu Fini or the setup Pokemon. Switching in an opposing Terrain is frequently unreliable due to the comparatively poor bulk that Tapu Koko and Tapu Lele possesses, and the general mediocrity of Tapu Bulu. Taunt is less reliable as Taunting Tapu Fini does not prevent Tapu Finiʼs partner from utilizing their own setup move — which is a near guarantee on Pokemon such as Zygarde and Snorlax; and if the partner is Taunted that does not stop Tapu Fini from initiating their setup with Swagger.

2.5 As mentioned previously, older iterations of a Swagger ban in DOU had failed due to the convincing case that Self-Swag was a demonstrably valid reason for the use of the move. The banning of Swagger in ORAS required the argument to justify that the negative values the move introduced in the player-to-player dynamic outweighed the potential strategic uses. The current iteration is now relying on proving that the capabilities of Self-Swag now create dynamics in which the player-to-player interactions can be ignored for a much larger reward with minimal risk. As shown earlier, Tapu Fini by itself does not sufficiently meet the requisite degree of risk-versus-reward to be create a flow-charted situation or create overly drastic adjustments in the manner in which players are required to build and prepare for matches. Player-to-player interaction is not mitigated by the presence of Tapu FIni in a way that would prove Swagger to be a problem using existing precedent, and on those grounds alone, Swagger would not be banned. However, what was also shown is that flow-charted scenarios can be instigated with the presence of Swagger + Heal Pulse Tapu Fini and bulky setup Pokemon. The rise of these particular builds are due to a variety of changes that occurred during the transition from ORAS into SM, such as the change in pinch berries such as Mago. Pokemon such as Snorlax now operate in a flow-chart manner in which they simply setup and utilize Recycle and pinch berry recovery to ignore player-toplayer interaction in favour of a larger reward down the line. Tapu Fini aids this system due to being able to bolster both elements of the flow-chart. That being said, Swagger does not prove to be the problem itself, as this system still exists regardless of the presence of Swagger — Swagger is a complimentary piece.

3.1 At the outset of this analysis the defined goals were to evaluate if Swagger + Heal Pulse Tapu Fini is able to meet the informal requirements to be determined an unhealthy presence in the metagame, and justify a banning of the move Swagger. In 1.7, I stated: “In particular, the qualities I will be examining are whether the frequency of the interaction occurs often enough that it could be argued as “centralizing” to the point of unhealthy in teambuilding, or failing the necessary frequency, provides enough of a reward for minimal risk that its presence in a game shifts the play options of the opposing player in a way that it concentrates on a particular moment on the game, rather than on their own particular winconditions. What this means is that the player has to play in such a fashion that it prevents, or at least mitigates, a particular instance in the game from happening, regardless of whether or not it does happen, in order to avoid a subsequent series of turns that provide a near unavoidable loss — frequently referred to as “flowcharted”.”

3.2 In 2.3 an examination into both unique components of Tapu Fini, the concurrent possession of an automatic Misty Terrain, Swagger and Heal Pulse, and the impact those qualities had on teambuilding and in-battle counterplay. This evaluation was done in-line with the initial path of assessment laid out in 1.7. The analysis result led to the conclusion that Swagger + Heal Pulse Tapu Fini does not meet the requirements needed to push for a Swagger ban. It was found that the particular set did not create an overly strenuous impact on teambuilding due to being checked rather effectively by common team components such as Terrain, redirection, and Taunt. The in-battle assessment was similar, due to being a direct continuation of the former 3 teambuilding components.

3.3 In 2.4 a contextual analysis was done which no longer observed Tapu Fini in isolation. The analysis looked at Tapu Fini in conjunction with common partners that make use of the Swagger + Heal Pulse set, and the roles they play in mitigating the conventional counterplay options that exist. This assessment was in-line with the criteria laid out in 1.7, and concluded that the presence of Swagger + Heal Pulse Tapu Fini partnered with bulky setup Pokemon does create flow-chart situations, which is reasoning that has led to the banning of Eevium Z and Gravity + Sleep.

3.4 However, this particular element does not fall in-line with the specific factors that could be used to justify the latter two. In regards to Eevium Z, there was significantly less counterplay possible to mitigate the move, and the flow-chart scenarios it would establish were more pronounced. Gravity + Sleep also differed in that it worked along the reasoning that was used in the Shaymin-S public suspect that examined risk:reward in instances of imposed percentages in a player-to-player interaction. The element being looked at concerns only single player interaction and the risk:reward that it offers.

3.5 In 1.1, 1.5, and 2.5 it was pointed out that in previous iterations of a potential Swagger ban there was justification for keeping Swagger in the metagame due to the viability of Self-Swag compositions. Though the composition itself has not seen significant prominence until recently in the DOU metagame, existing precedent still lends itself towards keeping the element in the metagame. There exists sufficient, viable methods of counterplay that it does not overly strain teambuilding, and the in-game counterplay exists as well.

3.6 Overall verdict: Swagger should not be banned.

B. Do Not Ban Swagger

A. Ban Swagger

Although swagger has been nerfed in this generation through accuracy and confusion hit chance reductions, it is still problematic for 2 reasons.

The first is the presence of tapu fini’s ability to activate misty terrain making self swagger strategies prominent. With this, tapu fini can boost physical attackers damage output past their usual checks such as intimidate cycling and strong resists while also protecting them from status. This problem is exemplified in Snorlax and its curse set. In usual instances the curse set is easier to set up but gives up the power and immediate sweeping potential that the belly drum set has. However with swagger support, Snorlax receives both the immediate power and bulk to break through checks such as Ferrothorn, Landorus-t and Amoonguss.This has made Doubles OU into a set up heavy metagame where a combination of Snorlax/Zygarde/Physical attacker and Tapu Fini can bring a game back for the user if the opponent has been caught in a bad position. This is similar to the effect the combination of Azumarill and Jirachi had last generation where the threat of set-up made positioning have an overbearing impact on games. Though swagger is not the only culprit of this set up heavy metagame its ability to boost pokemon like Snorlax past their checks pushes it over the edge.

Another problem with swagger is its interaction with Marshadow. With the combination of Spectral Thief and a swagger pokemon faster than Marshadow, Marshadow will often receive both a ko and a plus 2 attack boost. This creates a lot of 50 50 scenarios where the Marshadow player will gain a significant advantage if guessed correctly due to the plus 2 attack boost. These 50 50s are undesirable as they promote coin flips over skill and ability to maneuver board positioning.

With these two reasons I am voting to ban swagger.

Final Results: 4 Ban, 2 Do Not Ban, 1 Abstain

Thus Swagger is Banned from SM Doubles OU
 

Bughouse

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#84
Praise the SM council. Took me like 2 years of bitching to get it banned in gen 6. This was what? A few months max?
 
#86
Yeah, I should clarify that I did appreciate the depth Shay went to explain his point, even if I didn't fully agree with the conclusion. Very well put counterargument. I just feel Marshadow + non-Fini teammate throws a wrench into the "banning part of Fini" argument but I can understand that obviously that post had been in the works for a long time.
 
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