np: Doubles OU Stage 3 - Hate to Love You - SKYMIN HAS BEEN BANNED

Status
Not open for further replies.

Arcticblast

somebody stop me
is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
#1



Welcome to the third (!) suspect test of ORAS Doubles OU. For the next two weeks we'll be looking at Shaymin-Sky. A veteran of the Doubles metagame, Skymin has always been infamous for its Air Slash, with a whopping 60% chance to flinch (before accuracy). Its Seed Flare came to prove itself as a just as deadly weapon, with a drop chance higher than Focus Blast's chance to hit and incredible Speed letting Skymin's partner take advantage of it. However, Skymin is a little on the frail side, and has numerous weaknesses.

This test will run for about two weeks. As usual, there will be both battling and posting requirements to qualify for voting. Battling reqs will consist of either laddering or suspect tournaments, and are still being determined at the moment. The posting reqs mean that you have to contribute in some way to this thread's discussion about Shaymin-S to vote. Please make sure to actually read the arguments others present for and against its brokenness (or lack thereof) and respond accordingly, or introduce new points; do not simply rehash an opinion. A sheer volume of people saying one thing or another will change nobody's opinion so make sure you're actually doing something to make people think. These reqs are subjective, meaning that the leadership can decide that you didn't meet them, even if you posted, if your posts aren't up to par. That means your post needs to make legitimate points (no "it's not broken if you can use it too") and show good metagame knowledge.

Remember to keep an open mind! Skymin is a controversial Pokemon and many people's opinions are pretty set in stone already. All of these people, myself included, should remember that just because you believe in your side doesn't mean everyone else is wrong!

The B value for this test is 12. You'll need to achieve a coil of 2600 for the ladder.

and remember you need to post!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#7
I do not feel like Skymin deserves a ban. The stat drops it provides are just a part of the metagame, and is something you can play around with the right plays. Yes, it is very hard to switch into Seed Flare, but there are other attacks, like Sacred Fire or even Scald, that are fairly difficult to switch into if you don't have the right switch ins. Skymin can't deal with any form of speed control (other than cotton spore lol) once it is set up, and because it is frail, it get's 2hko'd by most neutral attacks. Finally, because it doesn't have any multi-target moves, a good prediction can easily clear it.
Don't hurt me if you disagree >///< but tl;dr there are plenty of ways to deal with skymin, you just have to play around it differently than other mons. The game stays competitive, as one player tries to stop the skymin while the other player tries to abuse skymin's abilities while defending it, just like every game of Pokemon.
 
Last edited:

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
#8
Ok so let's get some real discussion going

Before we all start shitposting 20+pages of essays and "wow skymin can ohko rotom-wash" calcs

I wan to preface this discussion by saying that ladder experiences and ladder stats literally don't mean shit.

"But check I see skymin at #64 surely it's not op"

The reason skymin isn't seen as much as it SHOULD be on ladder is twofold. For the first part, it only fits on ho teams (someone correct terminology if you want idgaf). Secondly, skymin is powerful but inconsistent. What this means is that a lot of those high-elo laddering players will never touch skymin because, even though you SHOULD have won at least 1 of 3 flinches, if you don't you're fucked and you lose 50 points while each victory gets you 5. Maintaining high elo is as much about good play as it is about bringing consistent strategies, therefore I expect that ladder stats will reflect a much lower usage than say, seasonal stats.
 
#9
Let's try to be civil and stuff bc we're a cool community y/y? but some things I think we should consider are:

- Does the randomness of Serene Grace place it with thing such as Double Team/Sheer Cold etc.?

- If Serene Grace had a 100% affect rate would Shaymin-S be considered OP?

- How does Shaymin-Sky centralize/not centralize team building?

- When we team build, how often is Shaymin-S considered in our optimization?


Imo I feel it violates these principals. The sheer luck involved in its moves I think as unhealthy and generally frowns upon the DOU meta's much loved SKILLZ. I feel that the drops of serene grace, the flinches of Air slash, can turn the tide of a game immediately and generally frustrate ppl because a simple attack from shaymin-s can waste an entire turn combined with its massive speed tier makes it difficult for some pokemon to... do things in front of it. I feel that Shaymin-s' presence has forced Trick Room to be abandoned by some players (except me and check : ) ) and even ridiculed by upper staff because of "Shaymin + Keldeo/Aegislash" hard counter. Although I have been able to play around Shaymin-s myself before in some games against good DOU players, so It's really still up for debate on if it can truly hard counter TR. Shaymin-s does however force luck rolls with TR teams on occasions. I also lastly feel shaymin-s is considered a lot in teambuilding, like being forced to used a fire type for it or a niche TR setter. Or maybe you want to use talonflame (confirmed shaymin counter) specifically for Shaymin. However I don't feel it's considered as much as scarf landorus and Kangaskhan....It still is something to really consider and has backed me into team building corners before.

Overall I would vote ban for points 1 and 2 alone, point 3 is debatable and point 4 is determined based on users.
I feel that the sheer luck and power of Serene grace on it and its devastating Air slash + Seed Flare is too unhealthy for the meta.

But because of some of these possible discrepancies I'm open to rebuttle....but pls like don't call me retarded cause that kinda makes me feel bad...and ummm.....Iliketrains11 is a nerd
 
Last edited:
#11
In all honesty, I am a little confused about how I feel with Shaymin-S right now. Like, the luck factor is really annoying at times, but it faces some hardships in the DOU meta. One of the things I have noticed is people prepare for Scarf'd Lando-T (I personally use Scarf Kyurem for that) because it's very common, and Shaymin-S suffers from the same weaknesses. Ice is a common coverage and it's so frail even most low end HP Ice's really harm it. Icy Wind is such a cripple for it, Thunder Wave can shut it down. It just gives a huge luck factor, but if you are relying on that to ladder/win then it really is just going to be a gamble on how far you get. I personally don't see it as super bad or centralizing seeing as it is checked already if you prepare for other threats, but if it does get voted to go I won't complain.

TL;DR I am unsure on how to vote. Almost at reqs anyways, so I am gonna just keep going and see if I can tell later if I want it to go/stay.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
#12
i just got reeeqs, and it felt so good~ (got some crisp twave paras to luck them, oohhhh)

skymin's pretty good, but I want to ladder more because, frankly, no one else but me seems to be using it. except 1 other guy, who also admitted to using skymin for this reason. i saw it maybe once or MAYBE twice more in over 60 games.

it might be broken, certainly. idk, it just feels like dead weight in certain situations moreso than other really good doubles Pokemon. Air Slash, to me, is a lot more of a reason that skymin is broken than Seed Flare, and is really the biggest variable here.

hit me up with a TR team or two and we'll see how hard a shaymin-S team invalidates it. ladder alt is currently Yellow Mage Tehy

edit : i think stratos meant that just, don't post saying "LADDER SUCKS UGH" because it adds nothing. checkmater's point was more of a specific concern, namely that the ladder doesn't really use skymin and that its haxy style makes it inconsistent. that said, would people really rely more on hax in tournaments?
 

Arcticblast

somebody stop me
is a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
#13
In all honesty, I am a little confused about how I feel with Shaymin-S right now. Like, the luck factor is really annoying at times, but it faces some hardships in the DOU meta. One of the things I have noticed is people prepare for Scarf'd Lando-T (I personally use Scarf Kyurem for that) because it's very common, and Shaymin-S suffers from the same weaknesses. Ice is a common coverage and it's so frail even most low end HP Ice's really harm it. Icy Wind is such a cripple for it, Thunder Wave can shut it down. It just gives a huge luck factor, but if you are relying on that to ladder/win then it really is just going to be a gamble on how far you get. I personally don't see it as super bad or centralizing seeing as it is checked already if you prepare for other threats, but if it does get voted to go I won't complain.

TL;DR I am unsure on how to vote. Almost at reqs anyways, so I am gonna just keep going and see if I can tell later if I want it to go/stay.
I used literally these exact same arguments with Mence and people were like "BUT JIRACHI" so expect a similar dismissal
 
#14
From my experience with Shaymin-Sky, I do not feel that it is broken. I do not even find myself using it that much on the suspect ladder. From the games that I have played with it, many of my losses have come from the times that I have missed Seed Flare or Air Slash. Despite the Special Defense drops from Seed Flare and the flinches from Air Slash, Shaymin-Sky is still beatable. Shaymin-Sky suffers from any form of speed control and is fragile. Priority such as Talonflame Brave Bird kills Shaymin-Sky; it cannot do its job if it is not moving first.
 
#15
Something to keep in mind is our reasoning as to why we're banning skymin, if we do. Is it for being uncompetitive, centralizing, broken, or a mixture of both? As of now I'm undecided, leaning towards no ban, but someone saying "lol uncompetitive" is an inevitability, so I think I'll just raise a bunch of questions on criteria for banning.

If we're banning skymin for air slash being uncompetitive, what differentiates it from other haxy things, like rock slide, scald, and twave? If serene grace flinches are inherently uncompetitive, do we ban rachi and kiss, too, or is the combination of power and speed what makes it so? Nobody likes getting flinched in an important match, but we've dealt with it for a while now, and hax gets exaggerated when it happens to you. For it to be uncompetitive, you'd have to put up evidence that it allows players of lesser or equal "skill" to beat others through rng at a rate intolerable enough to discourage competition.

On overcentralization, we know skymin does quite well against balance. It has checks like thundy, tflame, and speed control, so one might say it forces you to run some of them, or it discourages less offensive playstyles. The question, then, is the effect significant enough to have a negative impact on the meta? (you'd also have to define a favorable meta)

The brokenness part is where seed flare comes in. Skymin's fast, hard hitting, has great offensive typing, and absolutely nothing wants to switch in on seed flare. Air slash happens at a significant enough rate to think of it as 60acc fake out with 95 acc damage, which is a big plus you can't just ignore. Of course, skymin gets twaved, rock slided, burded, screwed by speed control, or just can't ko something that's not -2. Just because it has counters doesn't mean it isn't broken, of course, but you do have to give reasons why its power outweighs its weaknesses.
 

talkingtree

Using headphones to drown out your mind
is a member of the Site Staffis a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a defending Smogon Snake Draft Champion
Doubles Captain
#16
Just finished getting reqs so this is more of a reactionary post than my final thoughts, but I wanted to get it out there while my experience is still fresh. I'm feeling somewhat conflicted about what to vote, but I'm currently leaning towards ban for a few reasons.

I believe that Skymin makes the meta less fun. I know this isn't a quantifiable or provable metric, but air slash makes the turn feel like hax whether the receiving 'mon flinched or broke through against the odds, causing it to feel like the match wasn't a fair representation of who should have won. I originally laddered with a skymin team, but after seeing the effect air slash flinches had on my opponents - ragequits, trash talk, and general frustration - I switched to a non-Skymin team and my laddering experience got instantly better.

This non-Skymin team I used had an Iron Head Jirachi, so I was still using a serene grace flincher to compare the two to see whether I was against Skymin as a 'mon or just its results, if that makes sense. What I found is that Jirachi's flinch rate wasn't nearly as devastating because it needed speed control to be able to flinch the heavy-hitting threats. Since Jirachi is slower than a majority of the offensive pokemon in the meta, I couldn't just dismissively click iron head to let my partner deal with the remaining team member. First I needed speed control or really strong predictions, and if I was able to get one of those, then any flinches I got felt more deserved. With Skymin, you can click Air Slash and hope for the best and usually get rewarded for that, which is rewarding lazy play.

TL;DR: Even though I don't believe Skymin to be overcentralizing, broken, or uncompetitive to the point of being banworthy, I do think that the meta will be healthier without it.
 
#17
Let me post my thoughts then i will feel free to discuss with everyone about their thoughts/opinions.

AS OF NOW i believe skymin not to be banworthy. Even tho serene grace can be considered luck based i feel skymin has a few flaws that kepp it from destroying the meta. First off it is extremely frail and susceptible to priority users such as MKanga, Bisharp, Talonflame, and this just names a few. Secondly i feel that its typing is not all that great in this meta, it is pretty weak to common threats such as scarf lando-t and zard-y(while laddering i saw at least one of these if not both on just about every team) another problem skymin has is a way to deal with Kyu-b another pretty common mon it can only 3HKO it while easily getting OHKO back, not to mention if it is behind a sub. IK these are just a few examples and people will have counter arguments but they are just examples. Lastly if skymin gets twaved its pretty nullified.

I would like to agree with Yellow Paint that if the only reason for a ban is uncompetitive how is that separated from other "haxy" things, and if serene grace is determined to be the overruling should we just ban serene grace as a whole?
 
#18
Because I got tagged, I'm gonna say that banning serene grace as a whole is an awful idea, since we'll lose two relevant redirectors in rachi and kiss that aren't very broken at all.

Also, my opinion on skymin in ladder usage vs tour usage. On the ladder, you don't absolutely need skymin as a diancie/keld/whatever answer, since 75% of players won't be using them, but it's an inevitability to see one in a tour match. As you play many matches on the ladder, overall you'll only flinch 60% of the time, and land seed flare+drop only 70% of the time. Over time, skymin isn't as reliable as say, amoonguss, so ladderers just don't use it. In a tour, however, people use skymin for its speed, power, and typing. If skymin lost serene grace, it'd still be an A rank mon, so any hax that comes from it is an added bonus that can change the flow of a match.

Not really trying to make a point, just trying to put how I feel about skymin in words, so feel free to disagree.
 
#19
Finally got to the 2600 coil, it was hard enough..hew.

I personally think that Skymin needs to get out of the tier, I mean first of all it is such a haxy mon nobody really likes hax, everyone hates getting haxed. And skymin is one of those mons which really frustrates the opponent when hax happens and the user in turn if it doesn't happen.

The ability serene grace is not broken. But when combined with that kind of speed and SpA it becomes too powerfull and KO's almost everything in two turns. And its moveset is also great with Air Slash/Earth Power/Seed Flare and HP fire or Dazzling gleam it is too overpowered.

That was about the moveset, but another thing I'd like to point out is the Focus Sash Skymin which i hate the most. I mean lets say my mon got somehow saved from the 60% flinch chance but the shaymin still wont die.

And that 120 SpA is a great threat combined with its speed. The air slash is not the most broken thing about it, the worse threat here is the seed flare, when combined with serene grace it has an 80% chance to drop your SpD to half, I mean that is really overpowering. And when combined with another special attacker like a Mega-Gardevoir or say Mega-Charizard-Y(which it usualy is paired with) or keldeo, it is almost impossible for any pokemon to survive the hits.

That makes setting up a trick room almost impossible unless we take both TR setter ups and use TR from both and basically if that seed flare misses we go back to double TR being used which removes its effects. Yes, I use a TR team in this tier, I know it might be unfair saying that something doesn't let me set up but but believe me I have tried so much to counter it but I cant do anything about it unless I use some kind of ice priority which is not that easy to find for TR teams ( basically Abomasnow and Donphan).

Well that's just my view.

(PS: we need to get sleep clause in doubles imo)
 
Last edited:
#20
So I got my Coil reqs after quite some laddering, making the post reqs now

Shaymin-Sky was probably suspected for the many qualities it has. at 127 base speed, It pretty much outspeeds most relevant things in the meta, besides mega-gengar and deoxys, so Speed control is required in order to prevent it from doing it's role. Usually, this shouldn't be a big issue, as things like talonflame have such a privilege (thanks to high speed and gale wings) and yet are still tolerated, but Shaymin sky's serene grace renders it capable of shutting down the proper answer which would otherwise counter it. Your probably going to say its unreliable to bet on a 60% chance when u can simply switch out until the skymin threat is taken care off, but competitivly, even in tournaments many players choose to stay in and go for that flinch chance instead of doing the play, adding to that that skymin is mostly utilized on hyperoffense, leaving most switches risky, generating a "need" to flinch in order to win, potentially spoiling the game. That alone makes shaymin a nuissane to have on the feild, but i dont want to stress on the flinching part too much.

In terms of coverage, grass-flying hits all types except steel, which most shaymin skys run earth power for, making it really proficient at attacking and handling most pokemon on the field, earning it a solid spot in Ho teams along with the amazing speed discussed earlier. Seeing it's moves in depth, airslash has enough bp to be threatening and seed flare's power is only accompanied by a 40% spdef drop, and thats before serene grace, neutralizing spdef wall checks, notably the likes of cresselia.

An aspect I didnt see a post for yet, or I must have missed is the keldeo+skymin core. The mascot of Ho teams, the duo is devastatingly capable of punching many kinds of holes in most teams, and few threats can stand in it's rampaging way (mostly aegislash). Keldeo's quick guard ensure the priority weakness is covered (we're looking at you talonflame), the grass water coverage is capable of hitting plenty, adding fighting and flying. That's plus speed and power which are present in the stats for garanteed destruction. Tier Co-Leader Arcticblast even described the core as one of the most effective in the current meta, and guessed it still will be in the close future, when asked about it after his interview in player of the week.

A note to add is that focus sash gives it "second chances" since it's so easy to ko, which skymin appreciates heavily.

So far, we have a fast and hard hitting skymin, enjoying exellent offensive coverage, adding to it insane chances to flinch and spdef drops. However, skymin is far from flawless, and several drawbacks keep it from being broken.

It might be just me, but a criteria a pokemon generally must have when it's banned is being overcentralizing, or having a reason to be in the least. That is not the case with shaymin-sky. While it impacts teambuilding hugely, always popping out as a concern for trick room and hyperoffense and teams in general, Some threats are prioritized when adding stuff to deal with them, such as lando-T and Kangaskhan. Most teams are and should be more equiped to face the latter two than skymin. Skymins isn't a must on every team, nor is it a must to have a solid check dedicated to it. Many have also noticed it got rare usage even in it's own suspect test.

This was already stressed enough on, but Speed control almost completely shuts skymin down, not to mention makes it dead weight in a match (Thankfully making flinches 2 slow). Thunderwave just takes it's life, and icy wind slows it without mentioning hitting x4. Trick room reverses it's high speed.

Prankster and priority bypass it's great speed, which is skymin's selling point so it can't do much vs these either. Notable examples are talonflame, thundurs, ice shard users (being rare as they are), tailwind teams and even scarfers (generally lando-t rock slides and kyurem-Black ice beams). So skymin loses a lot of it's utility when it's bypassed in speed.

Frail as heck. The bulk-ish (100-75-75 isnt awful tbh) it has on paper does not match it's actual bulk in battle, so landing a hit on skymin is mostly going to hurt bad. This also forces shaymin to run a sash. Adding to this that It's typing is not impressive defensively, having 5 weaknesses (one is 4x) to common typings like fire, and the resists it has(while resisting grass and water is very positive) wont matter much as it isnt made to take hits.

Another point, and actually a kind of a reminder is that the flinch chance is still 60%. We all know numbers mean so little when scald's 30% is actually 90% , while in opposition hitting 90% moves is a rare occasion, especially when u need it most, but there is still a 40% chance not to flinch. I have actually scored nicely in games where they bet on a flinch that didnt happen. A favorable gamble remains a gamble.

The Last point I'm discussing in this post is that shaymin's traits, while being very positive, only allow it to fit in Ho teams, and perhaps balance. The limitation it has to aggressive playstyles make it less overcentralizing, less metabreaking and less relevant than things like Kangaskhan and lando, which you can slap on most teams with little worries.

Summarizing, Skymin is one of the rare viable grass types in this meta, and perhaps the only offensive one. Amazing speed and spatk (127 and 120 respectively) render it a force to be reckoned with offensively, outspeeding and destroying, while having access to spdef drops for wallbeaking, and a favorable flinch chance to shut down counters(even trick room). Fits really well in ho along with keldeo, forming a really hard to stop duo. At the same time, that limits it to aggressive playstyles/teams. It's very poor defensively in typing and stats, and becomes more of a burden than dead weigth when crippled with slowness, relies on a percentage to beat it's counters and simply isnt overcentralising to a must-ban point.

I tried to be as objective as possible in the critique because I dont have a stable vote yet, might even go abstain if i make it, leaning towards "keep"
 
Last edited:
#21
Finally got to the 2600 coil, it was hard enough..hew.
I personally think that Skymin needs to get out of the tier, I mean first of all if it wasn't so OP why would it even be in Ubers (yeah Kanga-mega you're next probably), and as it is now we even have a seperate doubles tier for the Uber mons.
The ability serene grace is not broken. But when combined with that kind of speed and SpA it becomes too powerfull and KO's almost everything in two turns. And its moveset is also great with Air Slash/Earth Power/Seed Flare and HP fire or Dazzling gleam it is too overpowered.
That was about the moveset, but another thing I'd like to point out is the Focus Sash Skymin which i hate the most. I mean lets say my mon got somehow saved from the 60% flinch chance but the shaymin still wont die.
What i want to say is if we allow most of the mons in Doubles OU what is Doubles Ubers for? Well that's just my view.
(PS: we need to get sleep clause in doubles imo)
Doubles vs Doubles ubers are pretty different. Skymin is ubers for singles because we do not have a seperate teambuilder strictly for doubles, also this suspect is being done to determine if skymin is going to be sent to doubles ubers(being banned from DOU). And if we are allowing most mons in doubles, the doubles ubers format becomes just like the single ubers format. Say some of the people like to use some of the mons that have been banned, so instead of just not being able to use them, there is a tier in which they are allowed to use them.
 
#22
Some things like blaziken, aegislash, greninja and darkvoidless darkrai are still in the clear tho, and not near of a suspect test for the moment. I Understand what you meant about the list becoming similar slowly tho
 
#23
I was originally leaning towards a "Skymin isn't broken at all" post but in the end I kinda feel like I have changed opionion (haha Hashtag i made a veggie pun :D) anyway lets look at what shaymin-sky has to offer

ElegyofVGC said:
I do not feel like Skymin deserves a ban. The stat drops it provides are just a part of the game, and something you can play around with the right plays. Yes, it is very hard to switch into Seed Flare, but there are other attacks, like Sacred Fire or even Scald, that are fairly difficult to switch into if you don't have the right switch ins
While you say this is a part of the game, Smogon is in charge of balancing this metagame as much as possible and something like Seed Flare just does so much, and it's hard to actually play around Seed Flare considering you're very likely to get a SDef drop and there's basically nothing that just straight up walls it

Seed Flare, Sacred Fire and Scald aren't really comparable, the only possible users of Sacred Fire are Entei and Smeargle, now Smeargle is just plain out bad and there are often better choices for Entei, and Scald well..
even though Scald has wide distribution, Seed Flare hits at 180 base power due to STAB, from a 120 SpA, and due to Serene Grace there's a 80% chance to drop 2 stages of SpDef, instead of a 30% chance to burn. And even though the burn chance of a scald can be annoying, the 80% chance of a harsh spdef drop alongside skymin's high speed makes it nearly impossible to consistently switch into

ElegyofVGC said:
Skymin can't deal with any form of speed control (other than cotton spore lol) once it is set up, and because it is frail, it get's 2hko'd by most neutral attacks. Finally, because it doesn't have any multi-target moves, a good prediction can easily clear it.
a common partner for shaymin-sky is talonflame due to the incredibly common skymin + keldeo + talon core, and talonflame very often carries tailwind as a move.
not saying every skymin team has speed control but there are a lot of teams that do which can make it even more difficult

thunder wave fucks it up though so that's a good thing to beat skymin with

checkmater75 said:
The reason skymin isn't seen as much as it SHOULD be on ladder is twofold. For the first part, it only fits on ho teams (someone correct terminology if you want idgaf). Secondly, skymin is powerful but inconsistent. What this means is that a lot of those high-elo laddering players will never touch skymin because, even though you SHOULD have won at least 1 of 3 flinches, if you don't you're fucked and you lose 50 points while each victory gets you 5. Maintaining high elo is as much about good play as it is about bringing consistent strategies, therefore I expect that ladder stats will reflect a much lower usage than say, seasonal stats.
skymin isn't inconsistent, it's frail and has a few checks but if you're using skymin just purely because of the move air slash then I feel like you're kinda using it wrong, seed flare is much more threatening even though a 60% of immobility just sucks, a harsh spdef drop can even suck more because literally nothing switches into it apart from maybe thundurus and zapdos

Does the randomness of Serene Grace place it with thing such as Double Team/Sheer Cold etc.?
no

If Serene Grace had a 100% affect rate would Shaymin-S be considered OP?
yes, i think every pokemon would be considered op if serene grace had a 100% effect rate (you get stuff like scarf relic song meloetta, scarf rock slide users such as blissey which would be quite stupid)

How does Shaymin-Sky centralize/not centralize team building?
shaymin-sky often has trouble with speed control (if they aren't paired with tailwind talonflame) so u kinda just put tailwind on a team, or thunder wave, or w/e

i'll update this post later i woke up an hour ago
 
#24
After a lot of consideration, I think I am voting no ban, for a few main reasons.
Firstly just because shaymin sky out classes certain pokemon does not justify a ban, for example lando t overshadows garchomp.
Secondly shaymin sky is extremly frail and doesn't have amazing match ups with some very popular parts of the meta. it can't take an attack without going down to it's sash, a sucker punch from kang 252+ does a little more than 50% on a min roll. Skymin basically loses to any form of speed control or weather, it's wat too fast to do anything in tr and twind teams demolish it. It also has a terrible matchup against flying types especially the genies and zapdos.
Also many of it's non stab moves are very powerful if not 4x SE for example earth power is a 3hit. KO on standard aegislash
252 SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 132-156 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(132, 134, 134, 136, 138, 140, 140, 142, 144, 146, 148, 148, 150, 152, 154, 156)
So in conclusion I am voting no ban mainly because of it's inability to take hits, it's managable while using speed control, which is an essential part of most good teams and finally there are pokes that shaymin can't touch which are very popular in the meta
 

Paraplegic

#1 Starscream Fan
is a Tiering Contributor
#25
Before I begin this post: Let me begin by saying I am rather new to the format, so if you don't like the content of this post please take it with a grain of salt...

Now that that's out of the way, I would just like to state my honest opinion of skymin right if the bat. I do not find it broken in the traditional sense, but rather I do find it to be extremely annoying. In my(albeit limited) experience playing the format, I have found it to be the single hardest thing to play around in the format. Its 80% chance to drop spdef makes answers to it rather limited from what I've seen. And it's speed stat, combined with its ability and air slash, make a lot of games with skymin in them shitfests with its ability to hax its way to victory, turning a lot of unobtainable victorys into rather easy games to win. Which brings me to my point. While I don't think skymin i broken, that doesn't mean I don't think it may be ban worthy just because of it's perfect storm of stats, ability, and move pool. I honestly don't know if it should be banned or not, and I can see potential arguments from both sides that could lead me to want to ban it or keep it in the format. I now look forward to watching this thread and seeing and replying to all the arguments that people bring up about skymin. That's just my 2 cents of course, but I hope my point of view can be seen after reading this post! ^_^
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top