np: Doubles Stage 1 — Dragontown — Salamencite Suspect Discussion IT'S BANNED

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stratos

Banned deucer.

Welcome to Doubles's first official suspect test of the new metagame! In case you couldn't guess (in which case you should probably play more Doubles), we're going to be testing Mega Salamence.

The test will run for three weeks. Requirements come in two parts: ladder reqs and posting reqs. There are two parallel ladders, one with Salamencite and one without, and you must achieve a COIL of at least 2200 on both ladders to make the ladder reqs. I'll post the alt confirmation thread when I can be bothered. The posting reqs mean that you have to contribute in some way to this thread's discussion about Mega Salamence to vote. Please make sure to actually read the arguments others present for and against its brokenness and respond accordingly, or introduce new points; do not simply rehash an opinion. A sheer volume of people saying one thing or another will change nobody's opinion so make sure you're actually doing something to make people think. These reqs are subjective, meaning that the leadership can decide that you didn't meet them, even if you posted, if your posts aren't up to par. That means your post needs to make legitimate points (no "it's not broken if you can use it too") and show good metagame knowledge.

ANTAR SEZ: The B value for this test is 16.0. To figure out how many battles you'll need to have in order to achieve reqs, first determine your GXE (shown on the ladder and when you type /rating) and plug that into the following formula:

N=16.0/log2(40*GXE/2200)

(Google calculator is awesome for this kind of thing).

Here are some sample values:
Code:
GXE N
100 19
90 23
85 26
80 30
75 36
72 42
70 46
65 67
61 108
As a last note, please be respectful itt and keep the jokes somewhere else
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Bout time this was posted. Mence is broke as fuck. Will post thoughts on it later. Also first post. If you all need a eZ ladder crushing team enjoy mates http://pastebin.com/3cqhr3kW works on both ladders and if Cyco vision and various other players managed to peak ladder with a modified version of the team, you can easily use it to make reqs.

pwnemon edit: please don't use bunnies

edit: shit about mence.

Mence has a stellar speed tier of 120 letting it outspeed the vast majority of the unboosted/scarfed metagame outside of random mons such as darkrai/aero/deoxys/mega sceptile/mega lopunny/mega manectric. It's speed tier by itself wouldn't be that big a deal however it also has solid 145/120 offenses alongside aerilate which gives it the ability to run a myriad of sets such as physical dd, special mence, among other things.

However it's not the speed tier or the unpredictability/strong as fuck factor that mence has going for it, but unlike other mons that shares those two qualities (skymin/deoxys-a), mence has an unprecedented 95/130/90 bulk alongside having a base ability of intimidate which further exemplifies it's bulk and ease of set up, to give an example of its bulk, uninvested mence can easily take super effective hits such as mamoswine's banded ice shard, max attack lando-t's stone edge, among other things which is insane for a mon with as much power and unpredictability as mence. In addition due to how iffy a lot of mence checks are, some of which being outright destroyed by another of mence's potential sets leads me to conclude that mence is banworthy due to its combination of insane bulk + unpredictability + strength + insane speed tier + little/no opportunity cost.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't really think Mega Salamence is as broken as some people are making it out to be. Sure it is versatile, sure it hits like a truck. But you have to consider that is has a lot more weaknesses than another powerhouse mega known as Kangaskhan who actually got a lot more moves to work with thanks to the ORAS move tutors.

Stuff like Suicune, Milotic, and others can take any one hit from Salamence and then OHKO back with Ice Beam. Sure, Salamence teams can run redirection (they should, or they're doing it wrong). But Amoonguss + Kangaskhan or Follow Me support + a super powerful mega is nothing new from before and not to mention Icy Wind helps control the speed and you always have the Prankster Thunder Wave from Thundurus.

Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp helps check physical sets. I could go on about it.

Like, Mega Kangaskhan is a lot harder to deal with and if that is still in the tier, then Mega Salamence should stay too in my opinion. A myriad of ways to check the myriad potential sets a Salamence could carry.
 

Anty

let's drop
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I don't really think Mega Salamence is as broken as some people are making it out to be. Sure it is versatile, sure it hits like a truck. But you have to consider that is has a lot more weaknesses than another powerhouse mega known as Kangaskhan who actually got a lot more moves to work with thanks to the ORAS move tutors.

Stuff like Suicune, Milotic, and others can take any one hit from Salamence and then OHKO back with Ice Beam. Sure, Salamence teams can run redirection (they should, or they're doing it wrong). But Amoonguss + Kangaskhan or Follow Me support + a super powerful mega is nothing new from before and not to mention Icy Wind helps control the speed and you always have the Prankster Thunder Wave from Thundurus.

Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp helps check physical sets. I could go on about it.

Like, Mega Kangaskhan is a lot harder to deal with and if that is still in the tier, then Mega Salamence should stay too in my opinion. A myriad of ways to check the myriad potential sets a Salamence could carry.
Sadly, this is not as easy as you put it. Not only do those pokemon mentioned hate to take a return or double edge, they cannot ohko depending on mence spread:
For example; 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Milotic: 349-412 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Milotic: 408-480 (114.9 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 232 HP / 84+ Def Suicune: 322-381 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 232 HP / 84+ Def Suicune: 276-325 (69.1 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
112 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 292-348 (88.2 - 105.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Nice counters requiring max HP to do so, gl switching them in.
I know this is assuming a good position for mence, but it shows how strong it is; nearly ohko'ing one of the bulkiest relevent pokemon in the tier. But then consider that mence could have a partner like togekiss or amoonguss which allows mence to set up even more or go for a 2hko, or the fact that a good mence player will try to weaken suicune to the point where it can no longer be a solid check. Suicune also isnt too good in this meta outside checking mence considering how much use rain offense and ludicolo laughs in its face.

Burns and intimidate get completely destroyed by substitute, which many mence run. Also look at the intimidate users, scrafty and hitmontop lol, landorus who has an ok match up, but needs to run stone edge which mence can tank, and gyarados, who has an awful match up if utility, or gets hit very hard by mence.

Like, Mega Kangaskhan is a lot harder to deal with and if that is still in the tier, then Mega Salamence should stay too in my opinion. A myriad of ways to check the myriad potential sets a Salamence could carry.
The only reason why mega kanga is as amazing it because of mence discouraging the use of fighting types lol (an example of it being overcentralising). And good luck checking every mence set, when if you get it wrong, your steel type could be smacked by a fire blast, or it could sub in your face, or smack your set with an adamant double edge
 
Honestly, I'm a bit on the fence about Mence and this thread is going to definitely be the deciding factor if I vote.

The main thing I see about banning Mence is how easy it is to set up without redirection. Its almost universally agreed that it's best set is DDance, and with support from redirectors like Amoonguss and Jirachi, it's able to turn a 2-6 into a 2-0. The combination of power, bulk, and speed are the traits of a potentially broken 'mon and base form Intimidate is definitely the pushing factor for most people.

However, I do think Salamence has a decent pool of viable checks. Thundurus and Safety Goggles Rotom-H are able to negate (Taunt or Goggles) or kill (Rotom-H kills Jirachi and Amoonguss, Thundurus kills Togekiss) redirectors and cripple Mence. Shuca TTar with Ice Beam, Scarf Genesect, and Suicune are very viable options with Ice Beam to OHKO it. Viable mons like Jirachi and Heatran can take its attacks and retaliate. Sure, you can run obscure coverage moves such as Fire Blast and Hydro Pump to bop these 'mons, but it really does reduce the effectiveness of Salamence. I feel versatility isn't a great argument when you have such a huge opportunity cost to run a move that usually never sees use.

It may seem like I'm leaning towards the no ban side, but I don't really think I need to explain the strengths of Mence lol


edit: sorry for my terrible phrasing and shit i was watching toradora at the same time

i'll make posts with less shitty phrasing later
 
Last edited:
I won't rehash what we already know about Mega Salamence- its speed tier, its bulk, its ability, and its offensive capabilities all contribute to its power. What's more, though, is that not even Intimidate is a reliable stop to it. You might think on paper that Intimidate cuts into Salamence's offense, but (as explained) Substitute is a viable answer to it. What's more:

-1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 171-202 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 236-278 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even the most common Intimidate mon in the metagame is merely a check and not a counter, as it can't switch into a Double-Edge, and can't always rely on Rock Slide's flinch hax.

I have also seen large rises in fast mons such as Greninja solely for the purpose of hitting Mega Salamence with an Ice Beam. Tailwind teams are also becoming increasingly common in order to outspeed Mega Salamence. More Pokemon are carrying Choice Scarf than ever, from Hydreigon to Kyurem-B, in order to get the jump on it too. Admittedly, you can safely switch in the Scarfed mon and retaliate with, as seen here:

252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 258-304 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 494-584 (149.2 - 176.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But that's provided the Salamence user doesn't gang up on the Scarf mon, and that the Salamence user lacks redirection (which most M-Salamence teams have). Basically, with Mega Salamence on your team, you're guaranteed to get a kill or force a switch.

So, from the powerful attributes of Mega Salamence that we all know, to its restrictions on team building, to rendering tactics such as Intimidate useless, to its lack of counters outside "random fast mons" and Scarf users, it appears to me that Mega Salamence is indeed too powerful for Doubles and deserves a ban.
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 116-138 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Spread reduction is important in doubles n_n, but I do agree with taking out mega salamence, im not gonna restate what everyone's already said, but i find that things like suicune really don't bother mence as much as they've been said to. It can just sub/protect and let its partner take care of it or redirect, while suicune sits there waiting to take a +1 double edge to the face. Also I'm sorry but im going to have to comment on this again, tailwind teams are becoming increasingly common because this is a much faster meta, and slower mons need a way to compete with the faster threats.
 
I haven't done a suspect test since Skymin back in Platinum on Shoddybattle. I'm a little excited to try one again. So the ladder called (current) is the Megamence'd one, and the suspect ladder is the Megamenceless, one, right?

I'm giving a special-heavy mixed set a run because the Aerialated Hyper Voice is so bloody spammable and 145 attack is high enough that Earthquake deals massive damage to all but the hardiest or levitating-est flying resists even without investment. Mega-Kanga has a serious case of 4MSS, but Megamence has 3MSS - that 4th slot might as well be empty for how little I need it between Hyper Voice, EQ, and Protect. The thing is, it has a billion options for that 4th slot Rock Slide, Stone Edge, Roost, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Heat Wave, Substitute, Dragon Dance, Tailwind, Return, or Double-Edge. Besides being so bloody powerful, this thing is versatile.

The thing is tough, too. Comparable in bulk to Metagross, but with Intimidate and far better typing. Hidden Power Ices and uninvested Ice Beams don't break it and even with a defense- nature it takes physical moves with ease.

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 211-250 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 230-272 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 238-280 (71.9 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are all without intimidate, even. It's faster than all of these, and can two-shot them back with common moves; they can't switch in.

It partners extremely well with common good 'mons like Terrakion and Togekiss, who cover its few flaws and help it always keep the other guy on the back foot. I am either battling mediocre players or Megamence is so overwhelming that it forces narrow, predictable lines of play as everything else just crumbles.

I'm not really sure there's a way to deal with Megamence.
 
Mega-Salamence's excellent combination of power and speed threaten most of the mons in the game, and while you are bringing out your checks, it either sets up a sub or DD, or it reveals a special set whereas your checks aren't actually checks.

It actually pairs excellently defensively with specially defensive amoonguss, or follow me jirachi. Both of these pokemon cover mence's weaknesses very well and basically ensure it gets to set up.

I'm very concerned about the core of jirachi and mega-mence, as it pretty much crushes all competition and in my mind is the most threatening core in this meta.
Gardevoir and sylveon are poor stops with piss poor physical defense, and you pretty much need a mon or two on every team dedicated to taking this core out, which is very hard to fit imo.
 

Yellow Paint

working as intended
is a Top Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Moderator
I'd like to comment on what I see as a near unbeatable pair without very specific mons. Jirachi paired with Salamence almost guarantees a free sub or ddance with Mence, and some checks I can see are Heatran, which kills Jirachi but does absolutely nothing to stop Mence setting up, and Thundurus, which can taunt Jirachi, but still lets Mence set up. Even if Thundy carries both taunt and twave, it still loses to the sub set.

Other checks only really have a 60% chance of succeeding because of serene grace iron head flinches, and if Salamence is truly cornered by say, some combo of taunt + blizzard greninja, it can just switch out, leaving the opponent with at least one mon crippled by twave and the user in a possibly more favorable position.

I think it's unnecessary to say that after Mence sets up, its combination of speed and power let it become a complete wrecking machine, and that no other mon in the current meta can pose as much of a threat after one setup boost.
 
Jirachi paired with Salamence.
Dear God this is so much better than Togekiss for the Follow Me job, due to its Ice resist and ability to crush fairies with Iron Head. Gonna run 196 speed EVs on this Jirachi so it's faster than max Togekiss and pre-mega Gardevoir and Altaria.

I imagine in other contexts this would be dumb but my team's all about this Megamence so it's fine.
 
I made this set as a very good Mence counter.

Rotom-Heat @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 200 Def / 252 SpA / 48 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold/ Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

I made this set after hearing about how deadly two combos are; Salamence + Amoonguss, and Salamence + Jirachi. I chose Rotom-H over Rotom-W because of one move... Overheat. With Overheat and a modest Nature, Rotom has a good chance to OHKO Amoonguss , is immune to rage powder via it's item, and always 2HKOes Jirachi. If you opt to run modest, then T-Bolt is a 2HKO on Mence itself 100% of the time, and does ~45% when bold. The choice of natures is entirely up to you. Modest lets it do all of the offensive things I just listed, and bold lets you never be 2HKOed by a neutral Mence Double-Edge or Dragon Claw. The 8 speed EVs let it speed creep stuff that speed creeps uninvested Rotoms and the last 48 went into Special Defence because they were left over. Feel free to steal this set and test it out. I hope it helps.
 
I made this set as a very good Mence counter.

Rotom-Heat @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 200 Def / 252 SpA / 48 SpD / 8 Spe
Bold/ Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect

I made this set after hearing about how deadly two combos are; Salamence + Amoonguss, and Salamence + Jirachi. I chose Rotom-H over Rotom-W because of one move... Overheat. With Overheat and a modest Nature, Rotom has a good chance to OHKO Amoonguss , is immune to rage powder via it's item, and always 2HKOes Jirachi. If you opt to run modest, then T-Bolt is a 2HKO on Mence itself 100% of the time, and does ~45% when bold. The choice of natures is entirely up to you. Modest lets it do all of the offensive things I just listed, and bold lets you never be 2HKOed by a neutral Mence Double-Edge or Dragon Claw. The 8 speed EVs let it speed creep stuff that speed creeps uninvested Rotoms and the last 48 went into Special Defence because they were left over. Feel free to steal this set and test it out. I hope it helps.
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 93-109 (38.5 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 108-128 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 138-163 (57.2 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 162-192 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not really sure when you'd get the chance to burn it when Rotom is getting popped so hard. Besides, Salamence can run Stone Edge and can easily spare a move slot since it gibs Thundurus too.

+1 252 Atk Salamence Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 254-300 (105.3 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What about the special Mences that don't really mind burns?

252 SpA Aerilate Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Rotom-H: 61-72 (25.3 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Rotom-H: 181-214 (75.1 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not really going so well when even rolling minimums Rotom gets hit by the ol' one-two.

Speaking of special, Salamence gets Hydro Pump.

0 SpA Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Rotom-H: 168-198 (69.7 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Rotom-H: 226-266 (93.7 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

So I can't really say it'd help, no, especially since Megamence's other best friend Terrakion rips it to pieces.

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 172-203 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 183-216 (75.9 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

xzern

incredibly skilled
is a Tiering Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Are you also going to be testing kangaskhan, aegislash, and Shaymin-S for doubles?
probably not. doubles has actually unbanned most of the singles ubers because they arent overpowered in a metagame like doubles. for example, aegislash can easily get run down by specially offensive heat wave heatran, which is very common here.
 
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 93-109 (38.5 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 108-128 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 138-163 (57.2 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 162-192 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not really sure when you'd get the chance to burn it when Rotom is getting popped so hard. Besides, Salamence can run Stone Edge and can easily spare a move slot since it gibs Thundurus too.

+1 252 Atk Salamence Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 254-300 (105.3 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

What about the special Mences that don't really mind burns?

252 SpA Aerilate Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Rotom-H: 61-72 (25.3 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Rotom-H: 181-214 (75.1 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not really going so well when even rolling minimums Rotom gets hit by the ol' one-two.

Speaking of special, Salamence gets Hydro Pump.

0 SpA Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Rotom-H: 168-198 (69.7 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Rotom-H: 226-266 (93.7 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

So I can't really say it'd help, no, especially since Megamence's other best friend Terrakion rips it to pieces.

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 172-203 (71.3 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-H: 183-216 (75.9 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You raise some very good points about my set, namely it's weakness to stone edge and special sets, but some of the calcs were uncommon. Firstly, as good as base 120 speed is, it needs to go jolly or it's outspeed and rekt by terrekion, Thudurus, and numerous other pokemon faster than base 108. Another thing I noticed is that you showed it can't switch in on boosted hits. That is true, but in the fast paced metagame that is doubles, grabbing a boost is not always the easiest. I'm not saying it's impossible, and you probably can get it off most of the time, but it is more disrupt-able. Also, the stone edge calc was implying that you run both DD and Stone Edge on the same set, which seems kinda silly to me. The only sets that I would forgo protect on would be Substitute sets. You're hard-walled by steels if you do run Stone Edge, and although you are also walled by steels with dragon claw, at least you get STAB with that too. Steels are not uncommon. Also special sets aren't as good due to their lack of an ability to boost their stats to those high levels. You have a point that Mence can run a coverage move to kill Rotom Heat, but there reaches a point where versatility becomes unnecessary and unrealistic. Remember that you only have 3 move-slots after protect. One if your a physical set because of protect dragon dance and return take up the other three slots.

Edit:
1) Jolly > Adamant
2) Boosts are unreliable and nothing is a true counter to anything if you add boosts into the equation
3) it has a mild case of 4MSS and some coverage moves are kinda ridiculous
4) Physical > Special
 
Also special sets aren't as good due to their lack of an ability to boost their stats to those high levels.
Considering I'm running a special set and having nothing but success with it, this is way too dismissive of a statement. It's got a higher base special attack than Sylveon with better coverage moves and a far higher base speed. The Hyper Voice is brutal and between EQ and Hydro Pump nothing is ever safe.
 
I haven't done a suspect test since Skymin back in Platinum on Shoddybattle. I'm a little excited to try one again. So the ladder called (current) is the Megamence'd one, and the suspect ladder is the Megamenceless, one, right?

I'm giving a special-heavy mixed set a run because the Aerialated Hyper Voice is so bloody spammable and 145 attack is high enough that Earthquake deals massive damage to all but the hardiest or levitating-est flying resists even without investment. Mega-Kanga has a serious case of 4MSS, but Megamence has 3MSS - that 4th slot might as well be empty for how little I need it between Hyper Voice, EQ, and Protect. The thing is, it has a billion options for that 4th slot Rock Slide, Stone Edge, Roost, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Heat Wave, Substitute, Dragon Dance, Tailwind, Return, or Double-Edge. Besides being so bloody powerful, this thing is versatile.

The thing is tough, too. Comparable in bulk to Metagross, but with Intimidate and far better typing. Hidden Power Ices and uninvested Ice Beams don't break it and even with a defense- nature it takes physical moves with ease.

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 211-250 (63.7 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 230-272 (69.4 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 238-280 (71.9 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Salamence: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These are all without intimidate, even. It's faster than all of these, and can two-shot them back with common moves; they can't switch in.

It partners extremely well with common good 'mons like Terrakion and Togekiss, who cover its few flaws and help it always keep the other guy on the back foot. I am either battling mediocre players or Megamence is so overwhelming that it forces narrow, predictable lines of play as everything else just crumbles.

I'm not really sure there's a way to deal with Megamence.

Special Mence is bad, you will almost never see it.

Quick Edit: Not exactly bad, but completely outclassed by the DD set.
 
No one has brought this up, but since Trick Room has been (in many people's minds) improved this generation, let's talk about how a full trick room play-style can counter mega-mence.

Basically, with a trick roomer and a slow attacker present, Mega Salamence loses his ability to set up for free, and even when he does attack, his attacks don't do enough to stop trick room from setting up, and when it's set the conditions have changed to strongly incapacitate mega-mence.


Some Popular Setters:

Aromatisse: is imo one of the most reliable setters in the game. untauntable, with decent bulk, here's how the smogon set takes damage from mega-mence.

252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Aromatisse: 283-334 (69.7 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Aromatisse: 241-285 (59.3 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cresselia: It's cress
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Cresselia: 243-286 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dusclops: can also will-o-wisp after setting up t-room
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 144-169 (50.7 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Chandelure: it's barely an ohko but focus sash so?

If the t-room setter is not double-targeted, it will mostly likely live. Take into account the popular fake out/follow me/rage powder stuff to help the t-roomer set up, as well as the presence of another slow bulky offensive member on your team, and it is very likely that your setter will get up t-room. especially aromatisse and mental herb cress.
also, if there's a t-roomer there's a good chance that mega-mence won't be set up.

Now, the slow mon that can strike back hard has hell.
We want:

1. ice beam or other ice move or anything that can ohko
2. maybe have something jirachi and still be able to survive? (lots of mention of jirachi up there)
3. spread is good for redirects
4. special attacker better because of intimidate

Mega-Mence Destruction Mons:

Mega Blastoise:
252+ SpA Mega Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 484-572 (145.7 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 214-252 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega Mawile:
180+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 420-494 (126.5 - 148.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Mega Mawile: 208-246 (68.4 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (can take the hit)
180+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 376-444 (93 - 109.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Mega Tyranitar:
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 192-228 (57.8 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 182-216 (45 - 53.4%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO * can take the hit back
252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 342-404 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Mega Ampharos:
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 398-470 (119.8 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Conkeldurr:
152+ Atk Iron Fist Conkeldurr Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 340-404 (102.4 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
152+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 230-272 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sylveon: (goes behind sub!!!)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 458-540 (137.9 - 162.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Rhyperior:
you might want to use physical attackers as switch-ins, but this shows even with intimidate physical attackers can do really well.
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 148-174 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 265-312 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

without intimidate (if you switch in)

252+ Atk Life Orb Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 395-468 (118.9 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of viable t-roomers and t-room attackers that can counter megamence hard and also get rid of the pesky jirachi as well. If there was anything really obvious I missed, please tell me.

I might edit later if I've had my mind changed, but as of now I think well-thought out trick room teams can shut Mega-Mence down without having to completely base their teams off of countering mega-mence.

I leave you with this concluding thought:
0 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 222-264 (66.8 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



edit: in regards to an amoonguss if you see it on the opposing team with mega-mence.

Weesh (Jirachi) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Serene Grace
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Follow Me
- Iron Head
- Trick Room
- Protect

T-room first turn, mega-mence prob can't do too much damage unless it predicts the t-room and goes for earthquake o.o
follow me the spore to get the attack. can take returns fairly well.
252+ Atk Salamence Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 194-230 (48 - 56.9%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 129-153 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Last edited:

Joim

Pixels matter
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
You can stop that strategy easily either by OHKOing the TR setter (which mence or double target can achieve) or using Taunt Pokémon alongside Salamence.

For the first time in Smogon Doubles history, I'm inclined to ban this thing. It's just too good, I deem it better than some of our Ubers. Why? Because you can't prepare for it. You are not prepared. You carry checks for one of its sets, well, screw you, it can come with another set and still wreck your face. While the king set is obviously dd with a redirecting fella, its special set is somewhat fearsome as well, let's face it, who doesn't like to spam a high base power, STAB, spread move which can go behind Substitutes?

Salamence's movepool also means it can go single-handedly against its checks and beat them while keeping moves in its set to deal with the rest of the team. It doesn't even need a Dragon-type STAB, for its Return or Hyper Voice already deal more than enough damage and its coverage moves can easily destroy the foes that resist Flying-type attacks, namely Steels who are rekt by either EQ or Fire Blast.

If its stat spread with a bulk similar to that of Skarmory and the possibility to use either attacking stat or even mixed weren't enough, this beast has Intimidate on its base form, which means it can go in, force mons out or make them hit like little kids and mega evolve to deal massive damage that same turn.

It has checks and weaknesses, but you it's too versatile and it's so easy to build to get rid of its counters that it's simply overwhelming.

Edit:
Just for you to understand how damn powerful this thing is.
252+ Atk Salamence Aqua Tail vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 231-273 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO+1 252+ Atk Salamence Aqua Tail vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 345-408 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hydro Pump ofc always KOs.
 
You can stop that strategy easily either by OHKOing the TR setter (which mence or double target can achieve) or using Taunt Pokémon alongside Salamence.

For the first time in Smogon Doubles history, I'm inclined to ban this thing. It's just too good, I deem it better than some of our Ubers. Why? Because you can't prepare for it. You are not prepared. You carry checks for one of its sets, well, screw you, it can come with another set and still wreck your face. While the king set is obviously dd with a redirecting fella, its special set is somewhat fearsome as well, let's face it, who doesn't like to spam a high base power, STAB, spread move which can go behind Substitutes?

Salamence's movepool also means it can go single-handedly against its checks and beat them while keeping moves in its set to deal with the rest of the team. It doesn't even need a Dragon-type STAB, for its Return or Hyper Voice already deal more than enough damage and its coverage moves can easily destroy the foes that resist Flying-type attacks, namely Steels who are rekt by either EQ or Fire Blast.

If its stat spread with a bulk similar to that of Skarmory and the possibility to use either attacking stat or even mixed weren't enough, this beast has Intimidate on its base form, which means it can go in, force mons out or make them hit like little kids and mega evolve to deal massive damage that same turn.

It has checks and weaknesses, but you it's too versatile and it's so easy to build to get rid of its counters that it's simply overwhelming.

Edit:
Just for you to understand how damn powerful this thing is.
252+ Atk Salamence Aqua Tail vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 231-273 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO+1 252+ Atk Salamence Aqua Tail vs. 212 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 345-408 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hydro Pump ofc always KOs.

Imagine you see a Mega-Mence on the opponent's team. You start out with a bulky pokemon that can OHKO megamence, and aromatisse, who cannot be taunted and cannot be ohkoed by MegaMence (see calcs above). If he chooses to double target the aromatisse, mega-mence is dead cause your bulky attacker lived and ohkoed it. If he chooses not to double target, then trick room is set up. The momentum is in the t-room team's favor both ways.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
As of right now I don't believe mence is broken. Mence + Rachi is a pain but there's a lot of ways to get around that (fave being hyper voice + rachi). It's not too much hassle to stack mence checks, and while that doesn't make mence useless, I've found it to be incredibly hard to DD when I use mence, even alongside Rachi (maybe my team just isn't built for that). Never have too much trouble handling the combo either. It might be better if Rachi didn't have such 4mss and could more easily run Protect, but right now it seems not too difficult to weaken Rachi before the mence gets a chance to go to town. TR is also an amazing mence check. I've fought mence with a variety of teams (goodstuff offense, semi TR, balance, full TR, rain) and found all able to handle the typical Bulky DD set. My main concern is that people will start mixing it up and using setup-less sets more often which will make it harder to predict and play around mence; as long as everyone is using the same ddmence+rachi shit its not too bad though. the calcs are impressive of course but it seems like all I've ever been able to pull off with mence is firing off a couple +0 Double Edges (admittedly really good in itself but not necessarily above what I'd expect from an S rank but unbroken mega).

Mence is really broken on paper, but in practice it's typically forced to attack or protect to stay alive, which keeps it in the realm of sanity. Unless someone changes my opinion, I think it'd be wiser to keep mence for now and revisit later to see if we've found better answers. rachi is probably s rank if we keep mence in the meta tho, but i'm not sure i'm complaining, it's super cute.

edit: in case someone asks, the teams i'm referencing above are
1) Salamence / Jirachi / Darkrai / Rotom-H / Breloom / Sylveon
2) Metagross / Cresselia / Rotom-w / Heatran / Amoonguss / Landorus-T
3) Diancie / Bisharp / Suicune / Landorus-T / Volcarona / Hydreigon
4) FANGAME10
5) Mawile / Thundurus / Politoed / Ludicolo / Togekiss / Terrakion

edit2: lol i even used a hail team and that worked too tbh
Abomasnow / Talonflame / Suicune / Latios / Terrakion / Aegislash
 
Last edited:

Joim

Pixels matter
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Remember Amoonguss, which has Rage Powder and its counters are wrecked my mence. I mean, Jirachi is not the only mon who you can run with mence. You see, you really need to run a team capable of dealing with Mence. Any team. It's not like Mega-K, in which thanks to typing, lack of spread moves and lack of good base ability and lack of protect leads to it being fainted after all without needing to center your teambuild on it. With mence you have to have it in mind.

But we still have three weeks, maybe we can see it can be consistently defeated between players of similar skill without centralising all teams in mega-mence and anti mega-mence.
 

Empress

Will Will Smith smith? Yes, Will Smith will smith.
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Alright, after giving it some thought, I'm ready to make a better post after that embarrassing calculator oversight.

I still lean towards ban. Again, we already know what Salamence does. It is also causing the metagame to centralize around it. There has been a rise in Greninja solely for the purpose of checking Mega Salamence. As quoted by ginganinja, "if you are using garbage mons to check a top tier sweeper, then it's potentially a good indicator as to how unhealthy it is." Greninja isn't a garbage mon per se, but it is not very good in Doubles (C rank in viability). Moreover, Trick Room teams and Tailwind teams are on the rise as well. While I do agree with qwertypops that speed is becoming more important than ever with the new Megas in gen 6, Salamence still sits at a crucial Speed tier that even some of the new fast mons (think: Gallade, Diancie) don't reach.

It has some already brought-up checks in Jirachi, Heatran, and Intimidate, but whether or not they can actually counter Mega Salamence depends on the set you run. Indeed, as Joim said, you can't safely switch in a check to Mega Salamence, as you never know what set it is running. It forces your team to play around it, which shows how dangerous this mon is. While this isn't necessarily an indicator that Mega Sala is broken, it proves how powerful it is on the battlefield, in addition to what has already been stated. Nonetheless, Mega Salamence does suffer from a bit of 4MSS. Do you want to be able to hit Heatran and Jirachi? You have to run Earthquake, meaning you might have to forego a valuable move like Substitute. Do you want to block Intimidate? You'll need to run Substitute instead of a coverage move.

And here is the correct calculation from qwertypops, showing that Intimidate isn't as effective as one might think.

-1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 171-202 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 116-138 (34.9 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

TL;DR version: Yes, the meta is starting to adapt to Mence, and it indeed has some viable checks and counters. However, its near-guaranteed ability to get a kill or force a switch, its overcentralization, its ability to deal with certain checks and counters, and its raw power/bulk/speed that we all know, all make it unhealthy for the metagame.
 
Last edited:

SpaceBass

☆ALOLA VERA420: FUKK AMOONGUS AND UR MOM
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I'm of the opinion that mence is broken on paper but in practise is easier to play around than it sounds. Pwnemon already brought up this point I was going to touch on so I won't go into it too far, but mence does require support that can be accounted for to clean house.

I was heavily leaning towards not banning, but I feel I was being biased over what I consider banworthy. However after playing since ORAS came out, I've seen shit like scarf Greninja and infiltrator sash Whimsicott. This may just be the meta overcompensating for something the entire community is hyping up like the next Jesus, but its too early to say.

As it stands I'm on the fence about it, and will be playing with mence extensively to gain more experience with it and form a better opinion. I'm not currently sure if mence is over-centralising, or if the hype has sent people into an over prepared panic.
 
Right now it seems way over-centralizing. I have had problems getting it set up so it can wreck house completely as well without follow me and/or fake out support, but part of the reason is because people are carrying 2-3 dedicated checks on every team. Not to mention mega-mence is versatile enough and fast enough it can handle just about any of its checks outside of 'mons that arent viable except as a mega-mence check. Its not like mega-kang, which is also pretty gosh darn centralizing, because kang's checks are for the most part viable anyway and kang is fast but not so fast that it requires scarf'ing > 108 speed 'mons just to be able to revenge it... which still doesnt work if it gets a DD up.

Yes, you can play around it, but you can play around anything if your willing to try hard enough. I'm usually anti-ban but for once I honestly feel this thing is too op.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top