np: Doubles Stage 2 - Slumber (THANK GOD ALMIGHTY, [SLEEP] FREE AT LAST)

[Arcticblast]

Pocket is a john; Credit of this OP goes to Pocket >:] Pocket has bad music taste

Suspect Stage 2 - Sleep Clause Test

We're going back into testing with some drastic changes. We will be removing Sleep Clause, and see how this affects the metagame. VGC is another doubles format that has been going fine without Sleep Clause. Many of the council members believe that losing Sleep Clause in Doubles would yield the same results, so we are going to test this hypothesis in this suspect phase!

As a Smogon player, we tend to be uncomfortable about the prospect of having multiple Pokemon falling asleep. However, I would like all participants go ladder with an open mind, and give this test a fair assessment. Having 2 mons on the field and with the overall sleep nerf, the sleep effect is diminished quite a bit compared to OU of BW2 or even XY.

Voting Requirements

I have also changed the voting reqs; here's what you have to do:

• Attain a COIL (mystery rating A) rating of 2000 or higher AND
• Attain an Elo rating of 1400 or higher
• (IMPORTANT) Participate in the Metagame and Suspect discussion

Posting Rules

This is the Metagame Discussion Thread. Suspect Discussion Thread would be posted after a week into the test. Do NOT debate in this thread whether or not Sleep is broken / Sleep should be claused. Such discussion is only permitted in the Suspect Dicussion Thread. The purpose of this thread:

• Talk about the various metagame trends you encounter in terms of strategies, cores, or particular threats in this new metagame.
• Share with us what you have tried to control sleep and what approach worked.
• Reveal what Pokemon, core, or tactics take the most advantage of removing Sleep Clause.
• Discuss the implications of removing sleep clause without committing to any particular stance on its tiering.
• Post replays to enhance your discussion point!
• Post anything about this new metagame regardless of its relevance to Sleep Clause

Important Dates

• Feb. 16th - Suspect Stage 2 commences
• Feb. 26th - Suspect Discussion thread goes up
• Mar. 12th - Eligible users vote on the fate of Sleep Clause

UNLEASH YOUR JIGGLYPUFF

 

[Arcticblast]

Before we begin, I'd just like to point out that Electrolyte made a pretty sweet post at the very end of the last round's thread. Go check it out.

 

[BlankZero]

Arcticblast I am disappoint in your song choice.

Also, I predict a spike in ChloroSaur usage, Safeguard/Lum combos, Prankster Safeguards, Breloom, Safety Goggles and Amoongus during this test.

Sleep is such a crippling status. While it isn't as devastating as Freeze, nor as permanently crippling as TWave or Burns on Physical attackers, it still puts one mon down from anywhere for 1-3 turns. With the changes to how sleep works this Gen (fk Gen5 sleep), it does lessen the effect a bit. There's even been a Grass type buff with immunity to Spore/Sleep Powder. In addition, we have the new item Safety Goggles, giving us a way to block it even harder. However, I feel there may be a tiny bit of centralization early on in the test, with every team running some form of Sleep Control or Abuse. This isn't to say it's broken or not, just a usage prediction.

There's a lot of talk about Amoongus losing a good chunk of viablilty due to the Clause, but I feel like Breloom is the bigger threat. It's got the speed advantage, a really nice offensive typing, and Priority Technician Mach Punch, meaning it isn't a sitting duck after Sporing something. With the testing going on, I see these 2 mons being a staple on most teams, as well as a way to deal with them. Amoongus being bulkier means you're going to have to really focus it down harder, since Breloom dies to a stiff wind. However, Priority on Breloom means you can get that last Mach Punch off before dying if need be. Overall, I see these 2 mons spiking into the Top 10 or even the Top 5 during the Suspect test.

As for counters to Sleep, Safeguard will be way up there in terms of how to block for whole teams. Lum berry is already good on many things, but I feel things like Togekiss may start running it over Sitrus, since it already has a reliable recovery option, to pull dangerous Sleeps onto itself, leaving its partner open to attack. Other options will be Prankster Safeguard users like Klefki/Meowstic, as well as bulky setters like Cresselia. Here's a theorymon set I've been working on, which I actually nominated for the CCaT.

Cresselia @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 SDef / 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Safeguard
- Thunder Wave
- Helping Hand
- Moonblast / Psyshock

Speed Control, Sleep Protection, Support, and Cress' best Monoattacking set option. Psyshock is an option if you need a bit more pressure on Amoongus/Venusaur. Moonblast still reks Breloom though.

audio edit: Pocket chose the song, both Arcticblast and I supported No Sleep Till Brooklyn

blank edit: I say overthrow the powers that be.

 

[Ash Borer]

requesting dragonaut by sleep.also yeah I don't see this busting the meta wide open all my teams have 6 safety goggles now

 

[Fangame10]

I switched my Dusclops to cressilia due to the sleep infestation, like BlankZero I gave it a Lum berry, it's one the best pokemon for anti spore, but because of this the pokemon dusclops will now become suddenly more useless. spore is so devastating to trick room teams mostly because Amooongus its self is a trick room pokemon. I used dusclops very well last ladder, but because now Creessilia has become a necessity for Trick Room teams, pokemon like dusclops and maybe cofagrigus will fade away. not that they were used much anyway.

Defense (Cresselia) (F) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 128 SDef / 252 HP / 128 Def
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Safeguard
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Trick Room

this is my Cressilia, though one could say calm mind isn't so useful on it, I find it useful for taking on the poison types that use spore, and breloom.
safegaurd is the most important move, to stop spore of course.
this is my first fourm post.. sorry if it's not that good :/

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I'm not really fond of no Sleep Clause so far because of the fact that it can potentially mean that there are two Pokemon on the field that are both incapable of doing anything. For a while I was using a team filled with Pokemon that could induce sleep, and I gotta say, even something as unreliable as Hypnosis when combined with a Spore user can be extremely devastating to the opponent. There was actually a battle where I won because both of the opponents were asleep so I was just able to wear them down. When there is one Pokemon on the field that can do something, it's a lot better, but when 2 Pokemon are attacking you you at least need one Pokemon awake to do something at all. It also means you can just spam spore on whatever gets sent out to replace the sleeping Pokemon. This is especially annoying with Amoonguss, who can Spore itself or Rage Powder to let another Pokemon use Spore/Sleep Powder/Hypnosis/whatever as Amoonguss takes both hits (usually pretty well)

While Safeguard can help out, there are some really annoying Hypnosis users that I have used to just eliminate the Safeguarders. Mega Gengar and Darkrai are pretty good examples, as they kind of step all over Cresselia, Meowstic, and the like and they are really fast, too. But seriously don't underestimate Hypnosis on random Pokemon, as if they hit the move and something else is already sleep the match can end right there, and with the right support, they can repeatedly shut down stuff without any real effort. 60% accuracy may be bad but it can get likely with two attempts. At least without Sleep Clause they can't do this to several Pokemon that try to take them down, which may happen easily if there is a Spore-er on the field. It just feels really cheap and if I get reqs I will want it to stay banned.

POCKET EDIT: PLEASE READ THE POSTING RULES. IT'S TOO EARLY TO JUDGE SLEEP CLAUSE; IT'S ONLY DAY ONE

 

[BlankZero]

I feel that there are a ton of ways to stop Sleep Abuse that only seem fringe because we haven't had to use them. Safeguard isn't a new move, but it's spiking currently because "omg sleep all the things." Lum Berry used to only see use on things that needed to avoid Burns and Paralysis, but now will be used a lot more over Sitrus Everything. Also, Sleep Talk is a thing, Grass types give 0 shits about Spore, and Hypnosis is 60% Accuracy until it's used against you (inb4 Gravity Sleep teams). It's not hard to have a couple checks to counter Sleep, especially since most Sleep inducers are deadweight while Sporing/Hypnoing and are pretty easy to spot out.

 

[Speedholes]

Safeguard is such a boss move. I've been using Blank's Cresselia set posted above and it's been working wonders. Klefki is also fantastic, Prankster Safeguard along with T-wave, Swagger and Dual Screens is fantastic support for something like MegaKhan. It was good anyway to stop burns and paralysis for pretty much any offensive mon. Also helps that Klefki isn't particularly weak to Darkrai or Gengar.

In a similar vein to Lum Berry Togekiss, I also tried Lum Berry Jirachi - works well alongside dragons such as Kyurem-B. I can easily see this becoming the preferred option over Sitrus for both of them.

Has anyone tried Heal Bell or Aromatherapy? While I'm of the opinion that prevention through Safeguard or Misty Terrain is better than cure there could be more of a place for these moves. Doesn't help though that most of the good users already get Safeguard anyway.

Overcoat Reuniclus is a boss TR setter too.

Honestly this meta seems pretty fine to me. I've run into some obnoxious teams with like 4-6 sleep-inducers but teams like that have no real synergy and fold to anything carrying enough checks to status in general. Safeguard, Lum Berry and Substitute are all perfectly usable options for many pokemon with or without Sleep Clause. Pretty much every sleep-inducer is slow (Amoonguss), weak to priority (Breloom, Darkrai) or unreliable (anything using Hypnosis or Sleep Powder) and can be played around. The most troublesome pokemon to me is ChloroSaur in the sun, but if you are facing down ChloroSaur in the sun without any remaining checks or counters you would probably lose anyway.

I do kinda wish the mons with Vital Spirit/Insomnia/Sweet Veil didn't suck though.

 

[Joim]

Fuck you all, Bad Religion is the bast band ever in the history of mankind. Anyways:

Sleep. Sweet. So let's see tons of Chlorophyll Sleep Powder, shall we? I'd really like to see whether Aromatherapy / Heal Bell mons raise in usage, if we'll see some misty terrain or safeguard users (Meowstic has both + Prankster and Fake Out!), if Breloom takes over the ladder, the amoonguss spam... this shall be fun.

 

[BlankZero]

Fuck you all, Bad Religion is the bast band ever in the history of mankind. Anyways:

Sleep. Sweet. So let's see tons of Chlorophyll Sleep Powder, shall we? I'd really like to see whether Aromatherapy / Heal Bell mons raise in usage, if we'll see some misty terrain or safeguard users (Meowstic has both + Prankster and Fake Out!), if Breloom takes over the ladder, the amoonguss spam... this shall be fun.

Sleep Powder Hater right here. I can't land it more than 1 in 5 tries. Spore Forever.

Edit: How is COIL even determined? I had like 20 COIL after 2 matches, and now I have 200 after 9? (and 265 with 10 matches)

final Edit: If you guys challenge each other, make sure you challenge with Suspect test. Had a quick match where Sleep Clause activated and lost me the game :/

 

[Celever]

One trend I have noticed is that there have been more and more Tyranitar appearing lately, probably to counter the Chlorosaurs and... Chlorogants? I've only noticed Venusaur being a real abuser of sleep, and even then it only uses it's Sleep Powder once per match.
The set that I have personally been using is:

Venusaur @ Occa Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Light Screen
- Petal Blizzard
- Protect
- Sleep Powder

This is, of course, paired With ChariYard, but anyway. This Venusaur set is much more focused on supporting the team than other sets, because I felt that if two of the slots are going to go to Protect and Sleep Powder anyway, it may as well be full support. Petal Blizzard is just there to do some reliable damage onto all of the Pokemon on the field and Light Screen is there to counter things like Surf which threatens my Sun team. Actually... the only Pokemon weak to Surf there is Charizard. Hmph. Occa Berry is there to counter other sun teams -- I find that surviving the fire attack and putting the offender to sleep is incredibly useful.

More things which I think will become more common without Sleep Clause is Fake Out users such as Hitmontop. These are always omnipresent in doubles however being able to put the Pokemon who wants to put your Pokemon to sleep out of commission for a turn, now, is just fantastic. I carry a Hitmontop myself just for the Fake Outs on Venusaur and Breloom. I've never really liked HO in doubles, but I feel like if sleep becomes a real issue it may be the way to go - things like Deoxys-Attack (who IS a fucking weakling though) would become much more common, whereas things like Cresselia might become a little less common due to the fact that they always seem to be sleeping.

Something I am kind of interested about is the viability of Sleep Talk in this meta. In singles it is a common strategy to counter sleep, even with a sleep clause. Without this sleep clause, it seems like it should be something every team packs, however, a wrong move in singles is OK. In doubles, you can't even choose which Pokemon your Pokemon attacks when it uses Sleep Talk, never mind which move it uses. In 10 turn battles choosing the right move and the right Pokemon is essential, so I wonder if the stage will ever reach the point of needing to use Sleep Talk. What do you guys think of the move?

 

[Laga]

yeah I'm really loving using ttar already in this meta - especially scarftar - since it not only snipes down threats like charY and thundurus, but also is generally good for fast chip damage. Added plus is control of weather which, despite the meta being kind of weatherless, is still a great backup task for it to accomplish. I like using this set:

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 68 SAtk / 228 Spd / 212 Atk
Hasty Nature
- Rock Slide
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Ice Beam

basically, it lures landog and chomp and destroys them, whilst generally being... well... scarftar

Another good way to counter the rampant sun + chlorosaur is lum berry latios. lum latios also is good for paralysis, and latios is generally targeted with status a lot. Lum Berry in general is also a better item now that sleep is loose (might be less prevalent once the meta stabilizes though - sleep isn't even that overwhelmingly powerful), so putting it on stuff like terrakion, garchomp, landorus-t might not be a bad idea :)

 

[Electrolyte]

Grass-types definitely get a huge boost this meta, not only being able to put things to Sleep but also being immune to most common Sleep-inducing moves as well (and some even have Aromatherapy.)

To be honest, I doubt this change will have that big of an effect on the metagame aside from spurring further weather wars. With Dark Void banned and Hypnosis's hilariously low accuracy still hilariously low, it seems that Grass-types do get the better end of the deal. However, Venusaur, Amoonguss, and Breloom are the only common users of Sleep inducing moves, and Breloom isn't too popular anyway.

What's interesting is that it seems that bulky defensive teams benefit quite a lot from this change, which is something I personally want to look into. ChloroSaur might be a great sweeper, but what about bulky support MegaSaur? Utilizing bulk and longevity to spread such a crippling status effect could potentially play very well in the hands of a more balanced or even defensive team, and as a boon, MegaSaur can quite easily counter Chlorosaur, which is probably going to be a staple on most Sun teams. Bulky Amoonguss could be a great defensive Sleep abuser as well, especially for teams that can't afford to let MegaSaur take up the Mega slot.

I doubt Breloom will actually increase in usage simply because its typing is still terrible in the Doubles metagame. It gets completely run over by any and all Sun teams, and while its Spore may be useful, it's too slow and requires too much support. Fairies are everywhere, Flying-types are everywhere, and Intimidate is everywhere- leaving little room for Breloom, even if its Spore is hyped up. I'm really skeptical that anything but an extremely well put together and well played team will be able to successfully utilize Breloom, but that's just me.

Here's an interesting Mega Venusaur set:

Venusaur @ Venusaurite
Ability: Chlorophyll
IVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpDef
Nature: Modest
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power Fire
- Sleep Powder

The cool thing about this set is that it can easily function as an Anti-Sun strategy piece if you wait before you Mega-Evolve. Even without any speed investment, 0 Spe Venusaur ties max+ 129 Spe in the Sun, losing only to Mega Aerodactyl, and if you really wanted, you could put the last 4 EVs into Speed to tie with max+ 130 Speeds, but honestly that's not even necessary.

In its Mega Evolved state, Mega Venusaur can take advantage of its bulk, typing, and ability to play some unique roles as both a bulky tank and a partner support Pokemon. With Sleep Powder, it can spread crippling effects and buy time for its partner, countering most common Intimidate Pokemon and most common revenge killers with its STABs, making it a great partner for Fighting-types. Hidden Power Fire lets it take down opposing ChloroSaurs in the Sun, but you could definitely rely on Sludge Bomb, as both 2HKO anyway. (HP Fire is more for Steel-types.) It's real good at removing walls, especially Fairy-types, Bulky Water-types, and Ground / Rock-types.

I also like Celever's idea of trying Light Screen on Venusaur, as it really boosts its Special Defense and makes it almost impossible to kill.

 

[Dashspin]

Here's a scary thought:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebanksmogondoublesbeta-61147165
Prankster Amoonguss without Sleep Clause. Being able to Spore everything it wants is going to absolutely destroy every team that isn't prepared, while allowing something else to come in basically for free and start setting up. The Mega Banette is able to absolutely destroy the most common counters, being Meowstic and Cresselia. I'm going to try to get a better replay of this, but I think this is really threatening. This is an old replay (not mine, obviously), and there is a Sleep Clause here. Here's the sets I think will work:

Amoonguss @ Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 SDef / 248 HP / 8 Def
Calm Nature
- Substitute
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Sludge Bomb

Banette-Mega @ Banettite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 SDef / 252 HP / 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Taunt
- Shadow Claw
- Trick Room/Protect
- Skill Swap

The EV's are probably pretty interchangeable, but with the right teammates I think this core could work in conjuction with a bulky set-up sweeper such as Calm Mind Sylveon since you can basically put everything to sleep so darn easily.

On another note, this set is a very good counter to sleep:

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn

This talonflame can switch into sleep-inducing moves and literally destroy any sleep-inducer. Amoonguss, Breloom, Venusaur, Darkrai, Gengar. All of them are OHKO'd by brave bird/flare blitz, while uturn is just useful in general. It doesn't even have to switch in, really, it can still destroy them all without being asleep. You can replace something for Tailwind if you want, but Sleep talk makes it nice sleep fodder. The best part is, it's a dedicated counter that's still bound to do a lot of work to the other team, since Banded Brave Bird is going to severely hurt anything that doesn't resist it, and you have two targets on the field. Just watch out for Protect, and you don't have it yourself. Still, I predict Talonflame to see a rise in usage.

 

[Arcticblast]

While I don't personally see a niche for offensive Breloom any more, what with the prevalence of Fire, Intimidate, and to a lesser extent Flying to resist its hits and KO it, bulky Poison Heal Breloom does have a small niche - it is a hard stop to Rotom-W, it resists Landorus-T's EdgeQuake, it only needs Toxic Orb to activate once before switching freely into Knock Off, and it threatens Bisharp, one of the best Pokemon in the metagame right now. Now, with the ability to freely Spore while carrying an immunity to both it and Rage Powder, it's become a little bit better - still a pretty niche Pokemon, but better nonetheless.

 

[Electrolyte]

I haven't seen many Sleep abusers on the ladder yet but I would like to say that I don't think Sleep Talk is a reliable way to counter Sleep in a clause-less metagame.

First of all, Sleep isn't even that common, and fairly easy to target and eliminate. If you see a Venusaur, Breloom, or Amoonguss, it's pretty safe to assume that you'll be facing Sleep, and if you don't, you can assume that you won't be (unless Hypnosis or something.) It's better to take out the sleep inducer as soon as possible and then handle the Sleep issue as opposed to trying your luck with Sleep Talk.

Also, Sleep Talk only works with Sleep Clause in effect. The point is to make ONE of your Pokemon a designated Sleep absorber so you don't have to completely sack one of your other Pokemon and lose a lot of momentum. It only works because your opponent ends up "wasting" their Spore on something that doesn't care as much as your opponent would want it to, as the Sleep Clause prevents your opponent from crippling your other Pokemon. However, this doesn't work without the Sleep Clause because there's nothing stopping your opponent from putting another thing to Sleep. Sure you could let your absorber take a Spore but your other Pokemon would still be left vulnerable, defeating the main purpose of the move. Without Sleep Clause, there's little use for designated Sleep absorbers simply because your opponent can easily just put more things to Sleep. The only thing I would see Sleep Talk used for is probably multi-rest abusing stall teams but that seems excessively gimmicky to me.


The best and most reliable way to deal with Sleep is Safeguard or Aromatherapy. Instead of trying to play around the Sleep, remove the caster ASAP and then remove the effects. Or, you could use a disgnated Sleep counter, most likely a Grass-type, to switch into the move and then remove the caster in one swift motion.

 

[Haki]

Honestly, Sleep isn't too difficult to counter as Taunt is able to shut it down completely. Even with Prankster Taunt users such as Thundurus, Meowstic-M, and Sableye around, many people, if not all, don't bother to make use of a Mental Herb onto their sleep inducer. So I personally think that Taunt is the very best way to deal with Sleep in this slightly new Doubles metagame.

On the other hand, if you want to be able to counter Taunt, I'm gonna go back to VGC 2012 and make use of a Mental Herb Amoonguss.



Amoonguss @ Mental Herb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Spore
- Rage Powder
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb / Clear Smog

Mental Herb ensures it can get Spore off onto a potential threat, and the Sassy nature plus the 0 Speed IVs allow Amoonguss to function effectively in Trick Room. Rage Powder is a staple to any Amoonguss, but I think Clear Smog can be a viable option as there are some instances where you may be facing a +2 Mega-Kang, Belly Drum Azumarill, or a wall who spammed Cosmic Power or Stockpile, lol. So I just wanted to throw that out there; Clear Smog can be a lifesaver. Plus, this Amoonguss is great for countering Fairies.

Overall, I think Taunt will shut down Sleep inducers, but I would like to see the use of Mental Herb Sleep inducers such as the Amoonguss I shared above.

 

[youngjake93]

Ok, so I moved through the ladder with a team that was overprepared for sleep and I got decent results. I however felt obligated to try a team without Mandibuzz+2 grass types so I used my week 1 SPL team that had no preparation for sleep whatsoever and was pleasantly surprised by the ease at which I moved far into the #1 spot. This lead me to believe that my initial suspicions on a sleep clauseless meta were wrong if I didn't even need to prepare for sleep and just use a regular team.

However, I got bored on the ladder and tried a few different lulzy sleep inducing teams. Eventually, I made something kind of viable that could win against good opponents. This replay I feel demonstrates the true strength of sleep.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoublessuspecttest-88905748

Basically, if you can keep your sleep inducer alive then the game becomes pretty darn easy.

 

[Haruno]

Can we stop discussing sleep talk? The problem with sleep talk is that it's horrifically unreliable, often not doing the proper move or worse yet you wake up on a turn you used sleep talk for.

 

[Bughouse]

First, some music: Who Needs Sleep (Clause?)

My experience is mostly similar to jake's. While I didn't feel like I needed to use a team prepared to deal with sleep (indeed, most of my games were with a manual rain team, without too much protection against sleep), it's definitely possible to use and abuse sleep with ease.

I decided to ladder for a bit with my previously used dark horse team, which used full Trick Room including an Amoonguss. Now with no Sleep Clause, it was free to Spore even more things. This led to some very stupid wins, such as this one against Mizuhime (who hates me for saving this replay, but trust me, Mizu, I'm on your side... I think it was as stupid of a game as you do)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoublessuspecttest-88732470

My opinion on the matter so far comes down to the luck element of sleep. Teambuilding can go every which way, so for now at least I'll try to stay out of arguments about that. I want to first establish that sleep is very dangerous and that the new possibility of sleeping multiple things raises that danger exponentially.

With a move like Spore available (and numerous ways to make Sleep Powder or even Hypnosis very accurate too) the burden of luck is almost entirely on the Pokemon being put asleep. Will they sleep one turn or four? There's no way to know and that makes playing with sleeping Pokemon extremely aggravating. Luck and prediction is a part of Pokemon, but I personally am looking for discussion on how the situation compares for the sleep inducer and the sleep victim.

It seems to me that mispredictions become incredibly safe for the side that has induced sleep and incredibly dangerous for the side that is sleeping. If I attempt to induce sleep again as the sleep victim switches out, there's a good chance that whatever comes in will be vulnerable to sleep too. If I guess wrong, I merely wasted a turn (as will whatever was asleep most of the time). On the other hand, I might attack. If I attack the sleeping Pokemon with something aimed to hit a switch in and instead it stays in, sure I may not do a ton of damage, but it's still a free hit. And if I attack the sleeping Pokemon with my best attack for the sleeping thing and something switches in, it may not be the best attack, but once again, it's free damage. And all of these plays become quite difficult for the player with something asleep, since sleep's duration is random.

Hopefully we all already agreed on this point, but I just wanted to make it clear early in the discussion.

 

[Ultimathunder]

So, as someone who has opposed removing sleep clause since I first heard the idea being brought up, I find the current meta very interesting. Sleep doesn't seem nearly as bad as I thougy, though it still does limit team building.

Agreeing with Laga, Tyranitar is great support for and against sleeping mons. It deafeats thundurus, one of the biggeat annoyances to sleep users such as amoongus, and also checks sun teams, which try to abuse chlorophyll users such as Venusaur.

However, at the same time, a lot of the Pokemon able to handle sleep all seem to be similar to each other, and thus are able to be handled by similar mons.
I have found assault Vest conkeldurr able to handle mons like scarftar and pretty much every weather pokemon prettt easily.

One thing I find interesting is the lack of sleep clauses' s effect on trick room. On one hand, sleep is quite possibly the most efficient way of trick room prevention, since there are few grass type tr users and being forced to run lum berry is pretty limiting. On the other hand, there are many dangerous slow sleep abusers, from venusaur (specifically its mega which electrolyte explained about) and amoongus and breloom. in general, I feel trick room was buffed, which is in a way ironic because many people though lack of sleep clause wpuld hurt tr more than it would help.

In general, grass types were buffed, and I have seen at least one per team ever since the suspect ladder went up. shaymin-s is a pretty good switch in to a lot of common spore users, and can hit hard with STAB air slash.

Its good to hear what other's experience on the ladder are, and I hope we all come to a similar conclusion :).

Edit: sleep talk suks because it is unreliable and your opponent can simply spore your other pokemon

 

[Deaga]

I've just recently started doubles and I really have no idea where the idea of "no sleep clause" came from, but I'm expecting a pretty different metagame. Given Charizard-Y's presence in the metagame, I can guess Venusaur will be a significant sleep abuser. Maybe Darkrai will get more common too, as nothing has been said about Dark Void (or has it been banned?).

 

[Haruno]

I've just recently started doubles and I really have no idea where the idea of "no sleep clause" came from, but I'm expecting a pretty different metagame. Given Charizard-Y's presence in the metagame, I can guess Venusaur will be a significant sleep abuser. Maybe Darkrai will get more common too, as nothing has been said about Dark Void (or has it been banned?).

Dark void has been banned in doubles and will continue to stay banned regardless of sleep clause or not. 80% accurate double target sleep is broken as fuck.

 

[BlankZero]

I've just recently started doubles and I really have no idea where the idea of "no sleep clause" came from, but I'm expecting a pretty different metagame. Given Charizard-Y's presence in the metagame, I can guess Venusaur will be a significant sleep abuser. Maybe Darkrai will get more common too, as nothing has been said about Dark Void (or has it been banned?).

First off Welcome to Doubles!

Our idea to test sleep clause basically comes from VGC not having one and doing fine from acompetitive standpoint. And as Haruno said, Dark Void is, and always has been, banned in SmogDubz.

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

My thoughts so far: This meta is cheeks without sleep clause.
I can't collate my thoughts into anything that resembles a sound argument about it and so I'm not gonna spout out a load of bullshit about the way sleep has influenced the metagame but suffice it to say I had way less fun playing on this ladder than I have on the regular one. The common sleep users are just obnoxious under the correct conditions and I don't think throwing in extra 50 / 50 chances and generally making the metagame more luck based is healthy anyway.

Also when you see my reqs and wonder why they're lame as hell, it's clearly because I wanted a total of 69 games to get them.

Visual representation of this meta being cheeks