Mantine is still outclassed by pokemon such as shiftry and xatu for anti hazard pokemon. The one and only reason to use mantine is water absorb and defog and that is the ONLY reason.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame NP: NU (beta): Welcome to the NU Age (Combusken Banned)
- Thread starter Raseri
- Start date
- Status
Its also pretty much the best Typhlosion counter out there :)
Ok well if you're not going to use Defog, I guess you can use RestTalk with Air Slash and Scald. Either that or you can run like Offensive Rain Dance lol.
One thing about offensive Rain Dance Mantine is that it's one of only 2 swift swimmers that can reliably beat Grass-types with STAB. (The other being Qwilfish; Kind of ironic that both are Gen 2 Pokemon)
Back on topic, I would recommend RestTalk like Lightning said if you decide not to have Defog on the thing. Though, it's best to pair Mantine with something that can soak (no pun intended) Mantine's weaknesses.
Back on topic, I would recommend RestTalk like Lightning said if you decide not to have Defog on the thing. Though, it's best to pair Mantine with something that can soak (no pun intended) Mantine's weaknesses.
I'm not really sure why you're comparing Mantine to stuff like Shiftry and Xatu when they fill completely different roles. Shiftry is an offensive attacker first and a Defogger second--it relies almost exclusively on offensive pressure to remove hazards, and adds very little defensively to a team. You would never even consider it "over" Mantine on any team where Mantine fits on, ever. Xatu isn't even a hazard remover--it's a hazard deterrent, and is significantly more prediction reliant due to the fact that it can't directly remove hazards if they do manage to go up. It also plays much more offensively as well (bulky sets can work I suppose, but they're kind of bad imo since they're just begging to be set up or trapped by Doublade / Tomb / other stuff). Mantine fits best on bulkier teams that want a defensive Defogger that can actually switch into attacks and remove hazards, and one that can reliably take on stuff like Typhlosion / Pyroar / special Water-types / etc (something like Pelipper tends be overwhelmed by them). It does require some support, and it's definitely not some sort of go-to hazard remover in the tier, but to say it's "outclassed" by a bunch of offensive Pokemon is flat-out untrue.
Also ZoraFinn if you want to use Defog Mantine but don't have one ingame that you should probably just use simulators like PS! where you can instantly get access to all legal moves. The best set is probably Defog / Scald / Protect / (Air Slash | Toxic) with either max Defense or max Special Defense, depending on whether you want better mixed defenses or a complete hard stop to (most) special Fire-types and Water-types.
A pokemon I want to bring attention too is:
Xatu @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Roost
- Grass Knot
- Night Shade
- U-turn
Is Shuckle giving you problems with a nasty sticky web? Look no further to Xatu. As I hope you know, Magic Bounce reflects back status moves, including hazards. This is one of the best ways to stop Shuckle, and many other hazard setters, in their tracks. Get "infested" with Infestation? U-turn on the enemy's obvious switch to a pursuit trapper or whatever they send out. U-turn in general is just great for getting out of sticky situations. The real crux of the set is the Rocky Helmet, punishing pokemon with contact attacks that cant 2hko. It is very easy to just stall out Physical attackers with just Roost and Rocky Helmet damage. Steelix, in particular is stopped cold, just to name one pokemon. Rock/Ground and Water/Ground pokemon, such as Seismitoad and Rhydon are taken care of with an unexpected Grass Knot. If that is not necessary to you however, I guess other options such as Foul Play or Thunder Wave are viable. The zero speed Ivs are for slow U-turns but if you wanted to out speed certain threats you could invest in speed, as Xatu does have a very respectable base speed stat. This set is weak to Knock Off and strong special attacks, so be wary, but with the right support it can work wonders because of the general utility it provides.
Xatu @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Roost
- Grass Knot
- Night Shade
- U-turn
Is Shuckle giving you problems with a nasty sticky web? Look no further to Xatu. As I hope you know, Magic Bounce reflects back status moves, including hazards. This is one of the best ways to stop Shuckle, and many other hazard setters, in their tracks. Get "infested" with Infestation? U-turn on the enemy's obvious switch to a pursuit trapper or whatever they send out. U-turn in general is just great for getting out of sticky situations. The real crux of the set is the Rocky Helmet, punishing pokemon with contact attacks that cant 2hko. It is very easy to just stall out Physical attackers with just Roost and Rocky Helmet damage. Steelix, in particular is stopped cold, just to name one pokemon. Rock/Ground and Water/Ground pokemon, such as Seismitoad and Rhydon are taken care of with an unexpected Grass Knot. If that is not necessary to you however, I guess other options such as Foul Play or Thunder Wave are viable. The zero speed Ivs are for slow U-turns but if you wanted to out speed certain threats you could invest in speed, as Xatu does have a very respectable base speed stat. This set is weak to Knock Off and strong special attacks, so be wary, but with the right support it can work wonders because of the general utility it provides.
What's the deal with people using prinplup? Is it because it learns both stealth rock and defog or something?
Can You Stop Typing Like This? It's Grammatically Incorrect And Very Irritating To Read. Please just type normally like everyone else, since its the right way. Only capitalize the first letter of a sentence, and names/locations, and also the letter "i" if its not in a word.
And don't say English isn't your first language. English isn't my first language either, but you gotta learn to get better.
Also mods please don't delete this post lol. To add to the discussion, I've been wanting to get into the NU metagame sooner rather than later. How woulx you describe the metagame right now, in a few lines if possible?
A lot of Durant, Sigilyph and Archeops.
Been playing NU for a couple of days and found some pretty decent success with this Golem set:
Golem @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sturdy
252 Speed, 252 Atk
Jolly Nature
Moves:
Stone Edge
Earthquake
Sucker Punch
Rock Polish
I've found particularly good for either saving for late game or even sacking things of early to get up rocks when I know it'll be able to either sweep or take out a huge chunk of a team depending on sets/hax with stone edge. Basically sending it in on something that can bring you down to sturdy which is a lot considering the amount of weaknesses Golem has, and then clicking rock polish so it's essentially a Shell Smash without the defense/sp.defense drops. It can even work quite well if they have hazards up as you pass it a wish to reactivate the Sturdy ability. It's main niche though is that people don't expect it and it's really reliable especially if they don't get hazards up and can get you out of lots of corners.
Another mon I've had success with is Banded Ninjask.
Ninjask Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
252 Speed, 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
Moves:
U-Turn
Final Gambit
Aerial Ace
Night Slash
While it seems unconventional and unusual for the sake of it, provided you have a reliable hazard remover on your team this thing can keep up a lot of offensive momentum and hits really hard with a banded U-Turn, which to be honest is the only move you'll really need to be using with this thing. If you can get hazards on the other team side of the field it can deal a hell of a lot of residual damage which is really quite important in a metagame where most of the Pokémon are weak to rocks hence being lower tiered. Another thing it is great at is bluffing the standard baton pass set turn one. Something that has happened a lot with this set is that I've led with it and they've led with something like Liepard and blindly set up a substitute assuming I'm just going to SD Baton Pass into something, and then I just click U-Turn and either flat out kill or completely cripple them because the fact Ninjask gets infiltrator isn't particularly common knowledge. One more thing I've realised is that Ninjask still outspeeds the common Lilligant set after one boost so everytime I see a Lilligant I know that I'll be able to deal with it easily by just hard switching into my Ninjas
I hope these couple of sets get a bit more use, as I've had a lot of success with them, and I think that people will appreciate their effectiveness in the current metagame especially.
Golem @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Sturdy
252 Speed, 252 Atk
Jolly Nature
Moves:
Stone Edge
Earthquake
Sucker Punch
Rock Polish
I've found particularly good for either saving for late game or even sacking things of early to get up rocks when I know it'll be able to either sweep or take out a huge chunk of a team depending on sets/hax with stone edge. Basically sending it in on something that can bring you down to sturdy which is a lot considering the amount of weaknesses Golem has, and then clicking rock polish so it's essentially a Shell Smash without the defense/sp.defense drops. It can even work quite well if they have hazards up as you pass it a wish to reactivate the Sturdy ability. It's main niche though is that people don't expect it and it's really reliable especially if they don't get hazards up and can get you out of lots of corners.
Another mon I've had success with is Banded Ninjask.
Ninjask Choice Band
Ability: Infiltrator
252 Speed, 252 Atk
Adamant Nature
Moves:
U-Turn
Final Gambit
Aerial Ace
Night Slash
While it seems unconventional and unusual for the sake of it, provided you have a reliable hazard remover on your team this thing can keep up a lot of offensive momentum and hits really hard with a banded U-Turn, which to be honest is the only move you'll really need to be using with this thing. If you can get hazards on the other team side of the field it can deal a hell of a lot of residual damage which is really quite important in a metagame where most of the Pokémon are weak to rocks hence being lower tiered. Another thing it is great at is bluffing the standard baton pass set turn one. Something that has happened a lot with this set is that I've led with it and they've led with something like Liepard and blindly set up a substitute assuming I'm just going to SD Baton Pass into something, and then I just click U-Turn and either flat out kill or completely cripple them because the fact Ninjask gets infiltrator isn't particularly common knowledge. One more thing I've realised is that Ninjask still outspeeds the common Lilligant set after one boost so everytime I see a Lilligant I know that I'll be able to deal with it easily by just hard switching into my Ninjas
I hope these couple of sets get a bit more use, as I've had a lot of success with them, and I think that people will appreciate their effectiveness in the current metagame especially.
Speaking about Choice Band Bug Flying Pokemon why does everyone forget about Scyther.
Scyther @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Aerial Ace
- Brick Break
- Knock Off
So Scyther is a really cool Pokemon to use. I hae been using it a bit and I can confirm this thing is pretty darn good. It stats allow it to do quite a lot of stuff like Choice Band, Choice Scarf, bulky Swords Dance with Eviolite and offensive Swords Dance. Of these the only one I have really used enough is Choice Band as seen above and it's really darn powerful. I am not sure if this is the best moveset for Scyther but it works pretty well.
U-Turn is the move you will be using most of the time since it's pretty strong and allows you to switch out of it's what would be counters into a team member that can reliably check that Pokemon. U-Turn also makes predicting a whole lot easier. Aerial Ace is Scyther's second STAB and since it gets the Technician boost it's quite strong. Aerial Ace is also a good move to lock yourself into for late game cleaning. Brick Break is honestly more for sniping specific targets like Lickylicky and Steelix. Note that you won't kill Steelix as you will only do around 40% but it's still good to wear Steelix down over time. Brick Break is probably the most replaceable move and can be tailored to fit your team's needs. Another move you can put in this place for example is Bug Bite as a more reliable Bug type STAB that doesn't force you out and gets the Technician boost but I prefer Brick Break's coverage more. Lastly Knock Off is a good move early game to scout what items the opponent has and Knock Off is broken as shit so Wynaut.
Scyther does have it's problems however. It needs quite a bit of support mainly to remove hazards and something for Steel types which can turn away some people. Mainly the Stealth Rock weakness is crippling to Scyther as it absolutely needs Rapid Spin or Defog to reach it's maximal potential. Steel types like Steelix can wall it quite easily and some don't even care about Brick Break that much. With these flaws Scyther isn't a Pokemon you can easily throw on your team but rather a Pokemon you have to build your team around which is a big problem. However if you do build a team around Scyther it will easily show it's capabilities. I highly suggest you try out Scyther once because it's really darn good with the needed support. Ow yeah and it's better than Ninjask :)
Scyther @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Aerial Ace
- Brick Break
- Knock Off
So Scyther is a really cool Pokemon to use. I hae been using it a bit and I can confirm this thing is pretty darn good. It stats allow it to do quite a lot of stuff like Choice Band, Choice Scarf, bulky Swords Dance with Eviolite and offensive Swords Dance. Of these the only one I have really used enough is Choice Band as seen above and it's really darn powerful. I am not sure if this is the best moveset for Scyther but it works pretty well.
U-Turn is the move you will be using most of the time since it's pretty strong and allows you to switch out of it's what would be counters into a team member that can reliably check that Pokemon. U-Turn also makes predicting a whole lot easier. Aerial Ace is Scyther's second STAB and since it gets the Technician boost it's quite strong. Aerial Ace is also a good move to lock yourself into for late game cleaning. Brick Break is honestly more for sniping specific targets like Lickylicky and Steelix. Note that you won't kill Steelix as you will only do around 40% but it's still good to wear Steelix down over time. Brick Break is probably the most replaceable move and can be tailored to fit your team's needs. Another move you can put in this place for example is Bug Bite as a more reliable Bug type STAB that doesn't force you out and gets the Technician boost but I prefer Brick Break's coverage more. Lastly Knock Off is a good move early game to scout what items the opponent has and Knock Off is broken as shit so Wynaut.
Scyther does have it's problems however. It needs quite a bit of support mainly to remove hazards and something for Steel types which can turn away some people. Mainly the Stealth Rock weakness is crippling to Scyther as it absolutely needs Rapid Spin or Defog to reach it's maximal potential. Steel types like Steelix can wall it quite easily and some don't even care about Brick Break that much. With these flaws Scyther isn't a Pokemon you can easily throw on your team but rather a Pokemon you have to build your team around which is a big problem. However if you do build a team around Scyther it will easily show it's capabilities. I highly suggest you try out Scyther once because it's really darn good with the needed support. Ow yeah and it's better than Ninjask :)
A set of Tbolt/Volt Switch/flash cannon/hidden power grass is incredibly threatening and can do huge chunks even to bulky walls like lickilicky. Also it checks Durant and can switch into a lot of walls without a move to hit steels like Audino (knock off tho;;;;), Gourgeist, Tangela and most Electric Types. Flash Cannon is awesome for Rhydon and it is super safe to spam as bulky waters fear Tbolt more to try to switch into it
Edit: Doublade, Durant, Virizion, Schukle now RU!
Last edited:
Well, here's the upcoming tier changes for NU: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-usage-based-tier-update-june-2014.3508291/#post-5495709
Here's the major changes I'm seeing (probably missing a lot):
Here's the major changes I'm seeing (probably missing a lot):
- Doublade is now RU
- Durant is now RU
- Virizion is now RU
- Shuckle is now RU
Sticky Web teams just took a HUGE hit in the rising of Shuckle to RU. Shuckle was by far the best sticky web setter in the tier, mainly due to the fact that its competition was Levanny, Ariados, and Masquerain. NU would've gained Smeargle, but for some ungodly reason people still use it in OU, so we got fucked out of that one.
Doublade going RU really doesn't effect a ton since Durant left with it. If they had left separately, borkedbug would have a field day here. A lot of physical sweepers that were once liabilities due to Doublade (Barbaracle is a great example) are now more powerful than ever.
Doublade going RU really doesn't effect a ton since Durant left with it. If they had left separately, borkedbug would have a field day here. A lot of physical sweepers that were once liabilities due to Doublade (Barbaracle is a great example) are now more powerful than ever.
YES DOUBLADE VIRIZ DURANT GTFO SUCK MY FUCKING DICK.....Wait like half my teams have those things shit LOL How to team build.
With these gone though, fairies are going to be far more prominant, especially something like Granbull. Also Normal Spam just got a HUGE boost without Doublade!
With these gone though, fairies are going to be far more prominant, especially something like Granbull. Also Normal Spam just got a HUGE boost without Doublade!
Grass-types got a huge buff from Durant, Virizion and Doublade moving up. In particular, I can see Sceptile shining a lot more now.
(Also Sigilyph was dangerously close to moving up, while Kabutops was close to dropping (Though thank god we didn't get it), not that important but still)
(Also Sigilyph was dangerously close to moving up, while Kabutops was close to dropping (Though thank god we didn't get it), not that important but still)
Now I need to get back in with Durant gone, though I will miss Virizion and Shuckle, really great pokes.
I can see Sceptile taking Virizion's place though I don't know what will take up Shuckle's, maybe lead Focus Sash Masquerain?
Now if only Sawk and Sigilyph would go we'd have a perfect tier.
I can see Sceptile taking Virizion's place though I don't know what will take up Shuckle's, maybe lead Focus Sash Masquerain?
Now if only Sawk and Sigilyph would go we'd have a perfect tier.
Last edited:
I think Magneton is one of the most buffed from the banishments. Without Doublade, Magneton can now trap every Steel in the tier and open up the way for powerful threats like Stoutland, Fletchinder, or Sceptile.
Speaking of Stoutland, sand just lost 3 of its best checks in Doublade, Virizion, and Shuckle so it can wreck now
Speaking of Stoutland, sand just lost 3 of its best checks in Doublade, Virizion, and Shuckle so it can wreck now
Hi, this is my first post and I'm somewhat new to the competitive scene and I was wondering what would be my best options to start an NU team with? Thanks
Hawlucha vs rollout watch out
Unfortunately sand is still forced to use Hippopotas
- Status