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Metagame NP: NU (beta): Welcome to the NU Age (Combusken Banned)

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One thing I noticed about NU is the great amount of good water-types. A small comparative list:

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-Seismitoad. Great Pokemon, can set up SR and stops other water types such as Lanturn in their tracks. Has a decent movepool with Knock off and Sludge Wave. Watch out for HP Grasses on things like Magmortar.

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-Qwilfish. Also, a great counter to many physical pokemon. Like Seismitoad, has a great movepool with Taunt, Thunder Wave, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, etc. Decently fast for a defensive pokemon. Poison is a great secondary typing which ensures Qwilfish resists Durant's X-Scissors, Virizion's Leaf Blades, Sawk's Close Combat etc. Like Seismitoad, doesn't have reliable recovery.

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-Lanturn. Again, great typing and good bulk. Lanturns niche is Heal Bell, which is really useful for balanced and defensive teams. Volt Switch is another obligatory move. Doesn't mind HP Grasses too much and is thus a very reliable check to most fire types.

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-Carracosta. More fit for Shell Smash. Water/Rock isn't the best offensive coverage, but it does the job. Respectable defenses + Sturdy often ensure a Shell Smash.

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-Barbaracle. Should only be compared to Carracosta and Omastar. Faster and more powerful, but has to rely on inaccurate moves, plus doesn't get access to Aqua Jet which Carracosta does. It does get Fighting coverage though.

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-Mantine. Great as a purely defensive pokemon with Defog, comparable to Pellipper. Doesn't get Roost or U-Turn like its Water/Flying companion, but has Haze and way better Special Defense to make up for it. Counters Typhlosion to hell and back. Also, Grass Types are not really an issue with Air Slash.

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-Ludicolo. Unique Typing, rips holes in teams with a LO Rain Dance set. Also has good coverage with Hydro/Ice Beam/Giga Drain. No real negatives, except that you'll need to find a turn to set up Rain.

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-Samurott. Can run two viable sets with SD and Special LO. Megahorn is its niche over Feraligatr. Has decent stats but stands out in none. Often outclassed by things like Feraligatr or Ludicolo.

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-Poliwrath. Another unique typing, good defensive pokemon that stops Durant. Circle Throw is a good phazing move and Poliwrath can run a few different sets, with Resttalk, Toxic or Bulk Up, or a combination of them.

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-Basculin. Good CB user. Adaptability helps power up Aqua Jet and Waterfall, but is definitely not one of the best water types out there. A lot of things are capable of using Aqua Jet and doing more than that.

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-Feraligatr. Good bulk, access to SD, Dragon Dance, Aqua Jet, Ice Punch, etc. Very good pokemon but lacks Speed when not running DD. Good late game cleaner, but isn't really popular on the ladder yet.

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-Pellipper. Another defensive water type. As said, Roost + U-Turn + Defog and good Defense. Reliable pokemon for a core. Actually the only Water type in NU with reliable recovery (!).

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-Gorebyss. Another SS user. However, can also pass the boosts to other pokemon sweeping in its place. Therefore a very dangerous pokemon. On itself it's often outclassed by the other Shell Smash users.

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-Omastar. Similar to Carracosta and Barbaracle, even has the same typing, but attacks on the special side, thus having Water/Ice coverage rather than Water/Rock. Not much to say really. Also has access to Spikes and Toxic Spikes if you really want.

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-Simipour. Fastest Water Type in NU with 101 Base Speed. Also has Nasty Plot, but is very frail. Most priority moves can deal with it. Also walled by other water-types such as Lanturn and Seismitoad.
Good list, but you are really underselling Samurott. There is no way that those are its only two sets. It has mixed Life Orb/Expert Belt, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Choice Band and probably more. There is also Focus Energy which I tried, but found to have underwhelming power since it doesn't have Sniper. It also has access to Encore, allowing it to set up or hit something on the switch with Knock Off, Hydro Pump or something.

You also missed Swanna, who competes with Pelipper as a fast, stronger, but frailer Defogger that also has access to recovery. It is also, like Pelipper, great on rain teams with Hurricane, water moves and Hydration.

Then there's Octillery, who can run Choice Specs, Life Orb, Expert Belt, or Focus Energy, but is usually too frail and slow to make much of an effect, but has a niche with its power and versatile movepool.

Lapras is here as well as the only Water Pokemon with access to Freeze Dry, which gives it perfect coverage alongside Surf/Hydro Pump. It can recover with RestTalk and can also run Weakness Policy with RestTalk, leftovers tank with mostly attacking moves, or RestHydration on a rain team
 
Jaguar360 Eh, the only Samurott outside of SD and special LO is a mixed variant (with minimal differences from the special set). Samurott is a bit too slow to try Choice items, unlike Simipour.

Manectrifier By the way, Simipour is not the fastest Water-type in NU; Floatzel is. Not too sure what Floatzel aims to do in this Generation, I am guessing a mix between sweeping with Bulk Up and passing with Baton Pass, a watered-down version of Gorebyss's SmashPass.
 
A pokemon I have been using to decent success recently is:

Mesprit @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Psychic
- Energy Ball / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
- Trick / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt

It is great for gaining momentum and catching opponents off-guard. No one really expects Mesprit to be scarfed and it can take out frail mons who think they can take it out first. U-turn obviously is great for scarfers, and for gaining momentum. Psychic is the stab, and does great damage to troublesome fighting types and poisons. Energy Ball is the big surprise factor. It mauls Seismitoads thinking they can get rocks down and miscellaneous Ground / Rock Pokes. While not having too much use beyond this, I find it very useful because I absolutely hate Seismitoad. Of course you can always opt to use Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Finally I use trick to disable bulky setup sweepers or tanks which commonly give my team trouble. A big part of this set is suprise factor, and now that I showed it here some of the surprise is gone, but idk, I had to share it. Enjoy!
 
A pokemon I have been using to decent success recently is:

Mesprit @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Psychic
- Energy Ball / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt
- Trick / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt

It is great for gaining momentum and catching opponents off-guard. No one really expects Mesprit to be scarfed and it can take out frail mons who think they can take it out first. U-turn obviously is great for scarfers, and for gaining momentum. Psychic is the stab, and does great damage to troublesome fighting types and poisons. Energy Ball is the big surprise factor. It mauls Seismitoads thinking they can get rocks down and miscellaneous Ground / Rock Pokes. While not having too much use beyond this, I find it very useful because I absolutely hate Seismitoad. Of course you can always opt to use Ice Beam or Thunderbolt. Finally I use trick to disable bulky setup sweepers or tanks which commonly give my team trouble. A big part of this set is suprise factor, and now that I showed it here some of the surprise is gone, but idk, I had to share it. Enjoy!
Healing Wish would be an amazing option on a set like yours to give another life to a poke easily worn down like Specs Dragalge or Doublade so at least mention it
 
Jaguar360 Eh, the only Samurott outside of SD and special LO is a mixed variant (with minimal differences from the special set). Samurott is a bit too slow to try Choice items, unlike Simipour.

Manectrifier By the way, Simipour is not the fastest Water-type in NU; Floatzel is. Not too sure what Floatzel aims to do in this Generation, I am guessing a mix between sweeping with Bulk Up and passing with Baton Pass, a watered-down version of Gorebyss's SmashPass.
Floatzel is going to pass boosts to things that are bulky and slow in the first place so they profit from the defence boosts.

We all know how bulky Gurdurr is, especially after a few Bulk Ups, but now Gurdurr is not only carrying the usual Mach Punch, Drain Punch and Ice Punch, but has the last slot free for Knock Off instead of Bulk Up.
And Doublade with a few boosts is just hilarious as well since even Golurk's Earthquake won't do overly much.
Physically attacking Ground-types, like Golem, Golurk and Sandslash, can come in on the Electric-types that haunt Floatzel while not squandering the boosts.
Same for Fire- and Flying-types on Grass moves, and physical Grass-types can come in on both.


Furthermore, Floatzel is faster than Archeops and Durant and Waterfall OHKO's the former. It doesn't do overly much to Durant but enough to revenge it if it is weakened.

Floatzel is fine in current NU, but only if your team profits from Baton Passing Bulk Up around as well as needing something fast enough to revenge Archeops.
That being said, Floatzel's niche is minor. Balanced (read: teams having a lot of both physical and special attackers) teams have a tendency to profit more from Gorebyss if they need a Water-type that can pass boosts around.
 
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I think you are forgetting a lot of viable options on these pokemon so I will fill them in.

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-Seismitoad. Great Pokemon, can set up SR and stops other water types such as Lanturn in their tracks. Has a decent movepool with Knock off and Sludge Wave. Watch out for HP Grasses on things like Magmortar. Can also run offensively with SubToxic and Rain Dance.

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-Qwilfish. Also, a great counter to many physical pokemon. Like Seismitoad, has a great movepool with Taunt, Thunder Wave, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, etc. Decently fast for a defensive pokemon. Poison is a great secondary typing which ensures Qwilfish resists Durant's X-Scissors, Virizion's Leaf Blades, Sawk's Close Combat etc. Like Seismitoad, doesn't have reliable recovery.

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-Lanturn. Again, great typing and good bulk. Lanturns niche is Heal Bell, which is really useful for balanced and defensive teams. Volt Switch is another obligatory move. Doesn't mind HP Grasses too much and is thus a very reliable check to most fire types.

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-Carracosta. More fit for Shell Smash. Water/Rock isn't the best offensive coverage, but it does the job. Respectable defenses + Solid Rock (Nobody runs sturdy because it is broken often and thus doesn't aid the sweep, Solid Rock is far more reliable) often ensure a Shell Smash.

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-Barbaracle. Should only be compared to Carracosta and Omastar. Faster and more powerful, but has to rely on inaccurate moves, plus doesn't get access to Aqua Jet which Carracosta does. It does get Fighting coverage though.

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-Mantine. Great as a purely defensive pokemon with Defog, comparable to Pellipper. Doesn't get Roost or U-Turn like its Water/Flying companion, but has Haze and way better Special Defense to make up for it. Counters Typhlosion to hell and back. Also, Grass Types are not really an issue with Air Slash. Can also run an offensive Rain Dance Set effectively.

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-Ludicolo. Unique Typing, rips holes in teams with a LO Rain Dance set. Also has good coverage with Hydro/Ice Beam/Giga Drain. No real negatives, except that you'll need to find a turn to set up Rain. Defensive Ludicolo is a great option to check opposing water types, and can utilize a decent SAtk set as well as Leech Seed to help wear down special attackers.

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-Samurott. Can run two viable sets with SD and Special LO. Megahorn is its niche over Feraligatr. Has decent stats but stands out in none. Often outclassed by things like Feraligatr or Ludicolo.

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-Poliwrath. Another unique typing, good defensive pokemon that stops Durant. Circle Throw is a good phazing move and Poliwrath can run a few different sets, with RestTalk, ProTox, SubPunch, and All Out Attacker.

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-Basculin. Good CB user. Adaptability helps power up Aqua Jet and Waterfall, but is definitely not one of the best water types out there. A lot of things are capable of using Aqua Jet and doing more than that.

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-Feraligatr. Good bulk, access to SD, Dragon Dance, Aqua Jet, Ice Punch, etc. Very good pokemon but lacks Speed when not running DD. Good late game cleaner, but isn't really popular on the ladder yet.

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-Pellipper. Another defensive water type. As said, Roost + U-Turn + Defog and good Defense. Reliable pokemon for a core. Actually the only Water type in NU with reliable recovery Ludicolo gets Synthesis, Qwilfish gets Pain Split, RestTalk is semi-reliable.

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-Gorebyss. Another SS user. However, can also pass the boosts to other pokemon sweeping in its place. Therefore a very dangerous pokemon. On itself it's often outclassed by the other Shell Smash users. Only shell smasher in NU with Baton Pass.

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-Omastar. Similar to Carracosta and Barbaracle, even has the same typing, but attacks on the special side, thus having Water/Ice coverage rather than Water/Rock. Not much to say really. Also has access to Spikes and Toxic Spikes if you really want.

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-Simipour. Fastest Water Type in NU with 101 Base Speed. Also has Nasty Plot, but is very frail. Most priority moves can deal with it. Also walled by other water-types such as Lanturn and Seismitoad.

Brawlfest Right. I wanted to write only a few lines per pokemon or this list would've become too long, but you're right for the most part, like defensive Ludicolo and its access to synthesis, Mantines and Seismitoads offensive sets, etc. Just wanted to note that I believe Pain Split and Resttalk are both not classified as 'reliable' recovery. Also, with the line about Gorebyss, I meant that when using it on its own (so without baton pass) it's outclassed, but it's definitely not when it is running Baton pass.

Jaguar360 Eh, the only Samurott outside of SD and special LO is a mixed variant (with minimal differences from the special set). Samurott is a bit too slow to try Choice items, unlike Simipour.

Manectrifier By the way, Simipour is not the fastest Water-type in NU; Floatzel is. Not too sure what Floatzel aims to do in this Generation, I am guessing a mix between sweeping with Bulk Up and passing with Baton Pass, a watered-down version of Gorebyss's SmashPass.

Punchshroom You're right I forgot about Floatzel. I went through the NU list and took out the ones I thought had a niche in NU and noted them down. So for example I left out Dewgong, Wailord, Luvdisc etc. Also: ironically, there is a third water-type in NU with reliable recovery: Corsola :/ Anyway, I then looked at the list and thought: hey, Simipour's the fastest of the bunch, better write it down.

Besides that, I think we can classify NU waters in 2 groups: Bulky Waters with a good secondary defensive type, and physically offensive waters with a way to boost and/or access to Aqua Jet. There are exceptions, but these two cover almost all of them.
 
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Jaguar360 Eh, the only Samurott outside of SD and special LO is a mixed variant (with minimal differences from the special set). Samurott is a bit too slow to try Choice items, unlike Simipour.

Manectrifier By the way, Simipour is not the fastest Water-type in NU; Floatzel is. Not too sure what Floatzel aims to do in this Generation, I am guessing a mix between sweeping with Bulk Up and passing with Baton Pass, a watered-down version of Gorebyss's SmashPass.
If Emboar can Choice Scarf in RU, Samurott certainly can in NU, whether special or physical. I'll admit though, that it's not quite as good in the current metagame with faster scarfers like Durant and Sawk running around. It's not too slow for Band or Specs either, as 70 base speed is pretty good for a wallbreaker.

Mixed LO is an awesome set and not outclassed by anything in the tier. It kicks serious ass.
Samurott @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Aqua Jet/Megahorn
- Knock Off
 
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If Emboar can Choice Scarf in RU, Samurott certainly can in NU, whether special or physical. I'll admit though, that it's not quite as good in the current metagame with faster scarfers like Durant and Sawk running around. It's not too slow for Band or Specs either, as 70 base speed is pretty good for a wallbreaker.

The reason Emboar could pull off a choice scarf, is that it had two 120 BP STABs coming off of a 123 attack, making Samurott a lot weaker without a boosting item. Physical sets are capable of running aqua jet for revenge killing, and a special scarf set would either be really weak (surf/scald) or unreliable (hydro pump). That is the real problem with using Choice Scarf Samurott, it is either unreliable and kind of weak, or just really weak.
 
Yeah I can agree with that. Not saying that it is as good as Scarf Emboar, but it is still a usable set in NU. Plus it has no 4MSS on any choice sets, which is kind of a plus, though that also means that it can be too straightforward at times.

Enough about Sam though. I'd like to pop in and say that Life Orb Frogadier is surprisingly good and strong. You probably think I'm joking, but it seriously isn't bad. It's no Greninja, but 83 (I think) special attack with Life Orb actually hits pretty hard with Protean. Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse and Grass Knot are all high-power STAB coverage moves and it can use STAB Hidden Power to take on pretty much anything it wants that isn't a special wall. It can also U-turn to keep momentum and get away from checks/counters and has a even has a moderately fast taunt. It's main problems are that it only lasts for a few turns and 97 speed just isn't fast enough sometimes.
Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot/Dark Pulse/Hidden Power Fire/Electric/Ground
- Dark Pulse/Grass Knot/Taunt/U-turn/Toxic Spikes
I don't really recommend any support moves on this thing btw, but they have their uses.
 
Yeah I can agree with that. Not saying that it is as good as Scarf Emboar, but it is still a usable set in NU. Plus it has no 4MSS on any choice sets, which is kind of a plus, though that also means that it can be too straightforward at times.

Enough about Sam though. I'd like to pop in and say that Life Orb Frogadier is surprisingly good and strong. You probably think I'm joking, but it seriously isn't bad. It's no Greninja, but 83 (I think) special attack with Life Orb actually hits pretty hard with Protean. Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse and Grass Knot are all high-power STAB coverage moves and it can use STAB Hidden Power to take on pretty much anything it wants that isn't a special wall. It can also U-turn to keep momentum and get away from checks/counters and has a even has a moderately fast taunt. It's main problems are that it only lasts for a few turns and 97 speed just isn't fast enough sometimes.
Frogadier @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot/Dark Pulse/Hidden Power Fire/Electric/Ground
- Dark Pulse/Grass Knot/Taunt/U-turn/Toxic Spikes
I don't really recommend any support moves on this thing btw, but they have their uses.
Just saying 4 hp is dumb because you lose more to LO recoil (10 hits). Instead keep it at 249 HP so that you can use up 11 LO Recoils. Cool set though, never thought about using Froggeh.
 
Healing Wish would be an amazing option on a set like yours to give another life to a poke easily worn down like Specs Dragalge or Doublade so at least mention it
Yeah, I definitely see it as a viable move choice, but the set already has big 4mss so I decided not to use it on my set. However a boon to mesprit is that you can tailor its moveset to your team's needs, so if I was using this set on a different team I could certainly see it working with Healing Wish.
 
If Emboar can Choice Scarf in RU, Samurott certainly can in NU, whether special or physical. I'll admit though, that it's not quite as good in the current metagame with faster scarfers like Durant and Sawk running around. It's not too slow for Band or Specs either, as 70 base speed is pretty good for a wallbreaker.

Mixed LO is an awesome set and not outclassed by anything in the tier. It kicks serious ass.
Samurott @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Aqua Jet/Megahorn
- Knock Off

Simipour does that set better. Due to its higher speed it gets to that same speed tier with just 4 ev's allowing it to invest more in its offenses, letting it hit harder. The higher speed also lets it not rely on aqua jet and can use other coverage such as grass knot or superpower. If you want it as a wallbreaker then the fastest wall is probably virision and you only need 60 evs whilst samurott can only do it with jolly. Mixed simipour is a much better wallbreaker than mixed samurott.
 
Yeah, I definitely see it as a viable move choice, but the set already has big 4mss so I decided not to use it on my set. However a boon to mesprit is that you can tailor its moveset to your team's needs, so if I was using this set on a different team I could certainly see it working with Healing Wish.
Healing wish is Mandatory as it will be useful almost every game while stuff like energy ball or ice beam will not. The set should be

Mesprit @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Atk
Naive Nature (Mesprit prefers taking Fighting moves better and has no important special resitances anyway. I'd run jolly but whatever)
- U-turn
- Psychic
- Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Hidden Power Fire (at least you kill Durant, the most threatening sweeper in the tier)
- Healing Wish / Trick
 
Simipour does that set better. Due to its higher speed it gets to that same speed tier with just 4 ev's allowing it to invest more in its offenses, letting it hit harder. The higher speed also lets it not rely on aqua jet and can use other coverage such as grass knot or superpower. If you want it as a wallbreaker then the fastest wall is probably virision and you only need 60 evs whilst samurott can only do it with jolly. Mixed simipour is a much better wallbreaker than mixed samurott.
Mixed simipour is not very good and contrary to what you said it is outclassed by samurott, samurott has megahorn, aqua jet (which is not really always used to beat higher speed tiers but helps it clean late game against things like fletchinder if it's running the standard fletchinder spread who of which carry priority. Simipour is good albeit but the only things it has over samurott are grass knot, nasty plot, and hone claws (just dont please don't samurott has swords dance so don't use hone claws.)
 
Mixed simipour is not very good and contrary to what you said it is outclassed by samurott, samurott has megahorn, aqua jet (which is not really always used to beat higher speed tiers but helps it clean late game against things like fletchinder if it's running the standard fletchinder spread who of which carry priority. Simipour is good albeit but the only things it has over samurott are grass knot, nasty plot, and hone claws (just dont please don't samurott has swords dance so don't use hone claws.)

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70 base speed is pretty good for a wallbreaker.

If you actually looked at the post i responded to and my post, you would have noticed how it was about mixed wallbreakers (i bolded it incase you miss it). Running max speed samurott limits the amount of power it will get for both its attacks.

His/her set for samurott gives it 242/341 (atk/spatk). With the same speed simipour has 295/324 (max evs in both attacks). 242 attack is a bit weak when half of your attacks are physical, samurott cannot achieve the same amount of power simipour can with the same speed.

Im not saying that is the most optimum spread but if you look at the damage output:
232+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 191-226 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Simipour Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 181-214 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Small difference the of about 10 damage

24 Atk Life Orb Samurott Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Musharna: 164-195 (37.6 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Simipour Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Musharna: 200-237 (45.8 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Much bigger difference there
Also if you want to beat faster walls (such as virizion), simipour can put in more speed, samurott is forced to go +speed nature, which greatly reduces its power

So before you comment read the posts. Im saying simipour is a better mixed sweeper than samurott, and my data backs it up. Samurott does other sets better, such as pure physical with sd, whilst simipour does other sets, like special sweeper with np.
 
If you actually looked at the post i responded to and my post, you would have noticed how it was about mixed wallbreakers (i bolded it incase you miss it). Running max speed samurott limits the amount of power it will get for both its attacks.

His/her set for samurott gives it 242/341 (atk/spatk). With the same speed simipour has 295/324 (max evs in both attacks). 242 attack is a bit weak when half of your attacks are physical, samurott cannot achieve the same amount of power simipour can with the same speed.

Im not saying that is the most optimum spread but if you look at the damage output:
232+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 191-226 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Simipour Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Musharna: 181-214 (41.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Small difference the of about 10 damage

24 Atk Life Orb Samurott Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Musharna: 164-195 (37.6 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Simipour Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Musharna: 200-237 (45.8 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Much bigger difference there
Also if you want to beat faster walls (such as virizion), simipour can put in more speed, samurott is forced to go +speed nature, which greatly reduces its power

So before you comment read the posts. Im saying simipour is a better mixed sweeper than samurott, and my data backs it up. Samurott does other sets better, such as pure physical with sd, whilst simipour does other sets, like special sweeper with np.

I'd argue that Simipour needs the max Speed+ a lot more than Samurott. Without max Speed Simipour is going to lose out on Typhlosion, Sigilyph, and a bunch of fast threats around that Speed tier. While Samurott appreciates speed tying Ludicolo and outrunning stuff like Gorebyss and min Speed Toad, it doesn't need the speed as much because practically no relevant walls have much higher Speed (Virizion isn't usually a wall and will probably beat Samurott anyway).

Notice that while you give calcs for Simipour and Samurott vs Musharna, the Attack EVs are kinda messed up. Simipour can't afford to run 252 Attack on mixed sets since it has to rely on an uninvested special attack stat or a weaker STAB Waterfall. Samurott can afford to run a lot more than 24 Atk, but even then it has other options like Hydro Pump, which btw 2HKOes Musharna. I get that Simipour can also do this, but Samurott can do a lot more to the bulkier walls and has the advantage of unpredictability. For example, Samurott can 2HKO Audino with Hydro Pump after SR and a layer of Spikes, while Simipour needs a full layer to do the same, and that's assuming the opponent knows Samurott is running a special attacking set, because he risks losing his Audino by switching into a SD.

I'm not going to deny that Simipour can run mixed sets; mixed Simipour/sage could run Superpower to take care of Regice, Probopass, and Lickilicky. However I won't say it's an effective wallbreaker anymore since Lanturn and Dragalge have taken over the former three as premier special walls and are harder to break down without SubEndeavor -- something done better by Pyroar. Samurott was also hit a little by the introduction of those threats, but still retains the unpredictability of last gen (SD sets can beat the special walls) as well as good attacking stats on both sides meaning a mixed set is definitely viable as it gets a powerful Knock Off, Megahorn, and even Aqua Jet.
 
anty208, I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's kind of a shitty argument. For instance, Simipour doesn't get Aqua Jet, which means it's NEVER going to run 4 speed EVs, especially since it's so goddamn frail (much frailer than Samurott). It needs max speed, probably with a speed-boosting nature, because it cannot take any hits. Samurott can, but even if it couldn't, it gets Aqua Jet so it can deal with stuff like Archeops that would otherwise revenge-kill it, which makes Samurott actually a far superior mixed sweeper (it's probably a better wallbreaker too since it gets Megahorn). You're seriously advocating the use of max Atk / max SpAtk Simipour of all things?
 
I'd argue that Simipour needs the max Speed+ a lot more than Samurott. Without max Speed Simipour is going to lose out on Typhlosion, Sigilyph, and a bunch of fast threats around that Speed tier. While Samurott appreciates speed tying Ludicolo and outrunning stuff like Gorebyss and min Speed Toad, it doesn't need the speed as much because practically no relevant walls have much higher Speed (Virizion isn't usually a wall and will probably beat Samurott anyway).

Notice that while you give calcs for Simipour and Samurott vs Musharna, the Attack EVs are kinda messed up. Simipour can't afford to run 252 Attack on mixed sets since it has to rely on an uninvested special attack stat or a weaker STAB Waterfall. Samurott can afford to run a lot more than 24 Atk, but even then it has other options like Hydro Pump, which btw 2HKOes Musharna. I get that Simipour can also do this, but Samurott can do a lot more to the bulkier walls and has the advantage of unpredictability. For example, Samurott can 2HKO Audino with Hydro Pump after SR and a layer of Spikes, while Simipour needs a full layer to do the same, and that's assuming the opponent knows Samurott is running a special attacking set, because he risks losing his Audino by switching into a SD.

I'm not going to deny that Simipour can run mixed sets; mixed Simipour/sage could run Superpower to take care of Regice, Probopass, and Lickilicky. However I won't say it's an effective wallbreaker anymore since Lanturn and Dragalge have taken over the former three as premier special walls and are harder to break down without SubEndeavor -- something done better by Pyroar. Samurott was also hit a little by the introduction of those threats, but still retains the unpredictability of last gen (SD sets can beat the special walls) as well as good attacking stats on both sides meaning a mixed set is definitely viable as it gets a powerful Knock Off, Megahorn, and even Aqua Jet.


I agree with what you say, i was just pointing out how simipour can run a more effective wallbreaking set than samurott because of its high speed tier. Otherwise sam is pretty much better. Yes those sets are not good, it is all for the sake of showing that simipour reaches the same relevent speed tiers, but with more attack investments. Not mixed, samurott does better due to being slightly stronger and a lot bulkier.
anty208, I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's kind of a shitty argument. For instance, Simipour doesn't get Aqua Jet, which means it's NEVER going to run 4 speed EVs, especially since it's so goddamn frail (much frailer than Samurott). It needs max speed, probably with a speed-boosting nature, because it cannot take any hits. Samurott can, but even if it couldn't, it gets Aqua Jet so it can deal with stuff like Archeops that would otherwise revenge-kill it, which makes Samurott actually a far superior mixed sweeper (it's probably a better wallbreaker too since it gets Megahorn). You're seriously advocating the use of max Atk / max SpAtk Simipour of all things?

I did say how the ev spread isnt right. For the last time, it was only for purposes of showing that simipour does a better mixed wall breaking set
Im not saying that is the most optimum spread
<<<i did say that, i was comparing the same speed tier to the amount of ev's used in attck ._.'

Anyway, after experimenting with lanturn, i really wanted a fast electric type, but i was struggling with what one to use, zebstrica or raichu.
  • Zebby has more physical bulk, raichu has better special
  • zebby is stronger on physical, raichu is mixed, but the combinations of both attacks are equal
  • Zebby is slightly fatser, avoids speed tie with archeops, only outspeeds swoobat, floatzel and serperior
  • Raichus volt tackle is stronger than zebbys wild charge
  • raichu is specially stronger and has a better movepool
  • raichu has priority
  • zebby has overheat
By the looks of it, zebby is completely outclassed, is it though? im just wondering because i see a lot more people use zebby>raichu
 
For electric types you are best going with the rotom trio (normal, frost, fan) as they can be subsplit, defensive(fan only imo), or trickspecs/scarf. Not to mention they all have really solid offensive typings.
 
Raichu's movepool and slightly higher special attack make it better than Zeb IMO, though Zeb isn't bad. Knock Off, Grass Knot and Focus Blast in particular make it stand out in particular. The Raichu speed buff helps a ton.
And yes Rotom is awesome too.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nualpha-125081490
Battle between me and AssassinRouge. I believe I have constructed the fastest-working stall team in the history of Pokemon(I'm Yoshi Lighthouse). Gourgeist is very underrated this meta, as it can switch in to Hone Claws Durant, live a +1 Life Orb Crunch, and burn it with Wisp.(Or you could just kill it with Fire Blast, but Wisp has more overall utility) Also using Vivillon as a lead is underrated.
 
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Gourgeist is just very underrated over all. I'm honestly VERY surprised that it's even in NU. As for using it in NU at the moment, I've just been running Flamethrower over Shadow Sneak on it for Durant, seeing as it ohko's with no investment and a negative nature, and it also has given me something to hit other Gourgeist harder with.

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Durant Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 281-333 (75.1 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- SpA Gourgeist-Super Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 268-316 (103.8 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Gourgeist-Super Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 106-126 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 95.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 56-68 (14.9 - 18.1%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
If you're going the route of a Fire attack, I would use Fire Blast, since it gets that. But there's the old Power vs. Accuracy debate.
Fire Blast doesn't really do much though, aside from turning a couple of potential 3HKOs (vs things like Steelix and Doublade) into certain 3HKOs, so you're probably best off going for Flamethrower.
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nualpha-125081490
Battle between me and AssassinRouge. I believe I have constructed the fastest-working stall team in the history of Pokemon(I'm Yoshi Lighthouse). Gourgeist is very underrated this meta, as it can switch in to Hone Claws Durant, live a +1 Life Orb Crunch, and burn it with Wisp.(Or you could just kill it with Fire Blast, but Wisp has more overall utility) Also using Vivillon as a lead is underrated.
Yours doesn't really look like a stall team with that Vivillon and Typhlosion
Gourgeist's major merit is the ability to check or Counter all physical water types and being a though nut for most Fighting types and Physical attackers in general. leech seed is always a cool move and wisp is annoying for a lot of mons immune to it like Bouffalant and grass types in general.
 
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