Metagame NP: NU Stage 1- Criminal (Drought Banned)

Eternally

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NU Leader



NU Beta has finally arrived! The council will be conducting multiple waves of voting throughout this month to address the inevitable issues that will pop up as we begin to stabilise the tier. Anything that gets quickbanned during this phase will be inspected again at a future date when the tier has settled. You can read more about the Slurpuff ban and stay up to date with tiering changes in this thread. Feel free to discuss the tier in it's entirety within this thread and be sure to play with the new Pokemon we received from the tier shift this month including; Froslass, Eldegoss, and Turtonator.
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1 | Cofagrigus | 22.355% |
| 2 | Sandaconda | 18.403% |
| 3 | Vikavolt | 17.894% |
| 4 | Mantine | 16.413% | (Rose to RU this month)
| 5 | Silvally-Fairy | 15.859% | (Rose to RU this month)

| 6 | Garbodor | 14.781% |
| 7 | Togedemaru | 14.663% |
| 8 | Mr. Mime-Galar | 14.338% |
| 9 | Rhydon | 14.318% |
| 10 | Haunter | 14.220% |
| 11 | Hitmonchan | 14.204% |
| 12 | Unfezant | 13.122% |
| 13 | Toxicroak | 12.989% |
| 14 | Kingler | 12.370% |
| 15 | Abomasnow | 11.780% |
| 16 | Jolteon | 11.231% |
| 17 | Piloswine | 10.936% |
| 18 | Cursola | 10.871% |
| 19 | Hitmontop | 10.514% |
| 20 | Slurpuff | 10.405% |
| 21 | Lanturn | 9.673% |
| 22 | Scrafty | 8.599% |
| 23 | Falinks | 8.279% |
| 24 | Drampa | 8.138% |
| 25 | Qwilfish | 8.068% |
| 26 | Rapidash-Galar | 7.974% |
| 27 | Sawk | 7.921% |
| 28 | Appletun | 7.788% |
| 29 | Skuntank | 7.440% |
| 30 | Drednaw | 7.091% |
| 31 | Golurk | 6.847% |
| 32 | Flareon | 6.845% |
| 33 | Ferroseed | 6.689% |
| 34 | Perrserker | 6.264% |
| 35 | Orbeetle | 6.225% |
| 36 | Klinklang | 5.958% |
| 37 | Sneasel | 5.941% |
| 38 | Rotom-Frost | 5.750% |
| 39 | Dubwool | 5.634% |
| 40 | Malamar | 5.572% |
| 41 | Rotom-Fan | 5.569% |
| 42 | Butterfree | 5.471% |
| 43 | Gourgeist-Small | 5.440% |
| 44 | Crustle | 5.265% |
| 45 | Arctozolt | 5.074% |
| 46 | Stunfisk-Galar | 4.731% |
| 47 | Turtonator | 4.223% | (Dropped from RU this month)
| 49 | Eldegoss | 3.785% | (Dropped from RU this month)
| 52 | Froslass | 3.251% | (Dropped from RU this month)


Eternally - TL
Finchinator - TL
rozes
spink
lax
rabia
realistic waters
 
Turtonator is gonna be great i think. the combination of RSpin + Boots + Shell Smash + 2 great Stab gonna make a great offensive spinner and a adition to veils/webs team.
Froslass is the 3° faster mon uninvested. has acces to spikes, taunt, destiny bond, hex.. i see working as a lead but he has to compite with Cursola and the other ghost in the tier
Eldegoss is bad.. has rapid spin + aromatherapy + regenerator but doesnt have good coverage (grass, bug and normal)
 
Just some quick thoughts. Slurpuff being gone is a blessing, and losing Mantine was bound to happen at some point, it’s been picking up in usage post-Home in higher tiers. Losing Silvally-Fairy is unfortunate but not a big deal, we have plenty of options still.

I’ve tried out all 3 of the new Mons so far and wanted to share my thoughts:

Eldegoss is honestly better than I thought it would be, although I still think it’s limited. Its movepool is really shallow, and it can’t beat spinblockers like Haunter, Gourgeist, or Cofagrigus 1v1. The best it can do is put them to sleep or use Leech Seed. Still, it’s a reliable check to mons like Rhydon, Sandaconda, Jolteon, and offensive waters like Kingler and Drednaw. Access to Aromatherapy + Regenerator gives it a niche compared to other bulky grasses like Shiinotic or Appletun. I could see it falling to PU in a month though.

Turtonator is great. Fire and Dragon is a really good STAB combination in this meta, with only Mons like Flareon (can’t touch Turt), Lanturn, or something like Mareanie want to switch into. Rapid Spin is nice as Turt can pressure Ghost types in the tier to spin, and Shell Smash + Boots is very good. You need Timid to outpace Jolly Sneasel at +2 although you’re still kinda slow, also its special attack isn’t too good. Still a very fun addition to the tier.

I haven’t used Froslass too much. The Spikes lead set seems fairly solid, it definitely has a niche over other spikes setters like Crustle or Ferroseed because of its speed tier and access to Taunt, Wisp, and Destiny Bond. I’ve also tried Choice Specs with Trick. I run Modest as it outpaces speed-boosting base 95s (Silvally, Haunter), and because the speed tier from 95 —> 110 is kinda barren. Only Mime-Galar and Togedemaru (which is usually Scarf). It worked okay as a spam core alongside CB Sneasel, although I think Abomasnow is the better Specs ice type.
 

Disjunction

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OK, I'm going to break the ice here since votes are happening pretty soon. Going to talk about meta-shaping mons one at a time and how I think they currently fit into the tier. Not going to say definitively what I'm voting yet because I still might change my mind.

:ss/vikavolt:
Hate this thing. I felt it was fine before Home, but the addition of Roost makes it insufferable because it gives you more leeway in aggressively switching it into shit. And whenever vika does get a switch in it either kills something or generates momentum by forcing in a fat, passive mon like clef, flareon, toge, or fisk. In the builder, it greatly skews the necessity for something specially fat or a majority of your team to be able to kill it. I think it has the potential to feel more balanced in future metas just because the overall power level of its teammates will be lower, and the less people will be punished for running passive fat mons. But for now, I feel vika is pretty stifling in both the builder and in battle.

:ss/cofagrigus:
Not sure the majority opinion on this thing yet. Used to be a top 5 mon, now I think it's dropped off a little bit after shifts. I think this is a mon with a very high ceiling for potential impact depending on set up sets and how the meta shapes up after bans, but for now it's at a comfortable spot.

:ss/turtonator:
Very unexplored mon since it just dropped, but it's insane. Shell Smash sets feel almost impossible to prep for since the mon itself is just fast enough to outspeed everything it needs to at +2 with Timid, is bulky enough with boots and good typing to consistently set up almost every game, and powerful enough with a great offensive STAB combo. Spin is also useful in a tier pretty barren of hazard control, but that's mostly just icing on the cake. This is pretty easily a top 1-2 offensive mon right now in my eyes.

:ss/sneasel:
Great mon that's risen to prominence since Home gave it Knock Off. Powerful, fast, good typing, priority, decent set up mon with Swords Dance, etc. It's very one-dimensional in how it plays, but it doesn't need to be anything more. A lot of people are saying it feels very stifling for building right now, which is fair, but I think in battle it is easier to handle than it seems. It's frail, weak to rocks, and there are a good handful of mons that can exploit the fact it's clicking specific moves like Scrafty with Knock and Kingler with Icicle Crash.

:ss/rotom-frost:
Strong wallbreaker and Defogger, but inconsistent. It's strong in the way that it creates opportunities to Defog by threatening opposition with its STABs and NP, but when it comes to a team actually depending on its ability to hit a few Blizzards then it gets scary. I don't think it will ever be broken in my eyes because that consistency to be able to do the same thing every game is key to me, but it's for sure the most impactful hazard control we have right now.

:ss/scrafty:
Another mon that has gotten really good recently. Losing Fairyvally and Puff in one go has made its STAB combination extremely threatening. I think it has a much lower ceiling than some of the other mons I'm listing on here, though, just because there's a lot of mons people aren't running as much yet that can shut it down, such as Clefairy, Sawk, and maybe some other tech like Mawile or Throh. I'm liking DD sets more than Bulk Up sets just because the immediate power (by running a more powerful STAB) and Speed are more appealing to me. Bulk Up sets work better as a way to force out the 500 offensive Ghost-types we have as well, so it's really just a team thing.

:ss/kingler:
This one's been fucked up since Alpha. Infinite coverage in Knock, X-Scissor, Superpower, Rock Slide, and High Horsepower. Powerful Water-type STAB in a tier with very limited options for Water resists. Decent bulk and Speed. It's the perfect wallbreaker, giving you the tools to get past just about every defensive core in the tier right now. I absolutely love using it, but it's frustrating as hell to go up against.

:ss/rhydon:
Best rocker and has a lot of potential to do well with offensive sets. I've gotten smashed by Rock Polish Rhydon more than once just because its coverage between EdgeQuake + Heat Crash is crazy hard to prep for and play around. Anyone who has built in this tier knows how invaluable Rhydon is to hold a team together both offensively and defensively, so not worth really expanding on him as much.

:ss/toxicroak:
Weird mon for me to evaluate tbh. It's clearly super strong between its options for coverage, and the variation between its three sets, SD, NP, and Scarf, but it's also clearly easy to counter with shit like Stomping Tanturm Garb or Sandaconda. It's restrictive for building and playing in a lot of ways, but I think that it hits that level where it's a healthy amount of restriction. I think that's a very complex topic to expand on for now, so I'll save any analysis on it for specific discussions on him I guess.

:ss/garbodor:
I would probably go so far as to say that Garb is the most impactful mon in the tier, but without being banworthy. It provides invaluable defensive synergy and utility, while still being able to load on pressure to an opposing team not just with STAB Gunk and its coverage, but with accumulating Spikes damage. So many battles come down to how you're managing the hazard game while managing Garb's HP just enough for it to still check the shit it needs to. Garb adds that kind of depth to the tier that makes it so fun. Great mon, and indisputable S rank in my eyes.

That's it for now. These were pretty curt descriptions, so if anyone wanted me to expand on any of these then feel free to ask. I'm sure several things weren't communicated perfectly.
 

Rabia

POGGAROO
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gonna drop my thoughts on what I perceive as the best mons atm

:ss/vikavolt:
Vikavolt is just stupid this generation ROFL. Not only was getting Roost back with Home a huge boon for it, but Heavy-Duty Boots as an item are a godsend. In Generation 7, you could pressure Vikavolt with Stealth Rock, but that's no longer the case and thus makes it much harder to wear down. Sure, you can take advantage of its tendency to switch into Fighting-types like Sawk to cripple it with Knock Off... but that doesn't stop the main issue of Vikavolt being nigh impossible to stop. As Disjunction also said, Vikavolt's defensive counterplay is extremely limited and only consists of essentially do-nothing Pokemon that are super easy to take advantage of.

:ss/turtonator:
Turtonator has been tough for me to fully gauge, but I think it's sort of overbearing as a setup sweeper. Although it's sort of slow, a Timid nature and Shell Smash boost make Turtonator faster than most everything else in the tier. And like, this wouldn't be a huge problem if we had more Pokemon that can handle Turtonator defensively or prevent it from setting up in the first place; its bulk makes it hard to pick off with priority, and the broken Boots make it unphazed by Stealth Rock.

:ss/cofagrigus:
I'm not as sold on this Pokemon as other people are. I think the redistribution of Knock Off and prominence of Garbodor (and as a result Toxic Spikes) make it much easier to pressure than in the earlier stages of Alpha. I still think Cofagrigus is like, A rank minimum, but the calls for a ban are ludicrous.

:ss/kingler:
Stupid. Broken. Nowhere near balanced. I want it gone. The two best sets---Life Orb 4 Attacks and Choice Scarf---lack meaningful counterplay to too extreme of a degree.

:ss/toxicroak:
I love Toxicroak; it's extremely versatile (probably has like, five viable sets?) and has nice utility through its resistances/immunities and access to priority. I could see it playing out similarly to last generation where it seems reasonable at first and then as the tier progresses becomes extremely oppressive, but counterplay seems sufficient for now.

:ss/sneasel:
I've heard other people saying Sneasel is reasonable currently, but I'm not so sure. I feel the Stealth Rock weakness gets overblown because entry hazard removal in the tier is pretty solid all things considered. Sure, you can take advantage of it locking into either of its STAB attacks, but that applies to any Choice-item holder. I think this might just be a case of extremely good but not broken, but I'm going to reserve my right to move more towards "get this out of my tier" for now.

:ss/garbodor:
There is a very legitimate case that can be made for Garbodor being the best Pokemon in the tier. It's super reliable at setting (Toxic) Spikes; it handles a load of problematic Pokemon in the tier (Toxicroak, Sawk, etc), and has a lot of moveslot flexibility if it wishes to forgo Toxic Spikes, with Toxic, Pain Split, Haze, and other options being viable. Disjunction hit the nail on the head here; it's easily the most important Pokemon in the tier, but it maintains a state of balance.

:ss/haunter:
I'm never quite sure how to feel about Haunter. At times it feels overbearing as hell because of a lack of great Ghost-type checks, but at other times it feels like any other somewhat fast, fragile wallbreaker. It's probably an A rank Pokemon with more potential to drop than rise.

:ss/rhydon:
It's still the best Stealth Rock setter in the tier after any changes from Home and the March shifts. It does literally the same shit as last generation, providing great defensive utility while posing a threat offensively. Cool guy.

:ss/scrafty:
Honestly, I feel there's a strong case to be made that Scrafty should go. The lack of viable Fairy-types that reliably handle it is very noticeable, and its defensive traits give it a lot of setup opportunities. Between Dragon Dance and Bulk Up, your ways of counterplaying Scrafty change sort of drastically and force very careful play. That said, I do like what it brings to the table defensively, particularly with its Bulk Up set, and I'm not sold yet that it's so dominating and restrictive that it needs to be dealt with; it's certainly one to keep an eye on regardless, however.

some general thoughts on other mons
:froslass: I just have this feeling it's gonna start off perceived as great and eventually be recognized as bad. The best set at the moment seems to be Taunt / Spikes / Will-O-Wisp / Hex or Ice Beam with the broken Boots, but meh? It spinblocks for itself, which is cool, but eh? I haven't been sold on it yet.
:sawk: Really good Pokemon that gets a bit overshadowed at the moment by Toxicroak I feel just in terms of Fighting-types. Should be used more for sure.
:appletun: It got used a lot in the early stages of Alpha, but it feels really fucking awful. It only fits on fat teams and doesn't really possess these unique tools that make it desired by other teams. You're generally better off using Eldegoss as a defensive Grass-type.
:eldegoss: Speaking of her, she's pretty solid. Best last move is definitely Pollen Puff for the mirror matchup as well as for Malamar, Ferroseed, etc. Pretty reliable spinner with great longevity and overall utility.
:abomasnow: Scary potent wallbreaker that is only held back by its mediocre Speed and defensive typing. Having to choose between Choice Specs and Heavy-Duty Boots is also a bit unfortunate.
:togedemaru: Easily the best Choice Scarf user right now, but specially defensive sets are also nice for their ability to check stuff like Rotom-F and Vikavolt.
:butterfree: Does the same dumb shit as Vivillon last generation. Inconsistent yet potent when given the proper matchup.
:diglett: and :trapinch: bad stop use
:lanturn: Our only defensive Water-type outside of Qwilfish. I like all the potential utility options though, between Thunder Wave, Toxic, Heal Bell, Protect, etc. Can be a bit hard to fit on teams at times I feel because you don't want to compound too many Ground-weak Pokemon onto one team, but it's a pretty alright choice.

there are definitely other Pokemon that are worth talking about, but :blobshrug: these were the ones that came to mind for me first
 
Imma share my own opinion on these mons

:ss/vikavolt:
Like people above are saying, I agree this thing is broken. I dont exactly agree on a ban, but I dont know.

:ss/cofagrigus:
Might potentially be banworthy, but I personally have never had any issues with it. I just either use knock off or switch into my ghost type.

:ss/turtonator:
I dont really have an opinion on this one as i've barely played since alpha.

:ss/sneasel:
Its ok, I guess

:ss/rotom-frost:
Dope as a wallbreaker, even doper on hail teams. Very cool rotom form.

:ss/scrafty:
GIVE US OUR FAIRY TYPES BACK

:ss/kingler:
Again, never had issues with it.

:ss/rhydon:
Might go to RU bc gigalith's rise

:ss/toxicroak:
Its great, but not banworthy

:ss/garbodor:
Same with toxicroak
 

Finchinator

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Imma share my own opinion on these mons

:ss/vikavolt:
Like people above are saying, I agree this thing is broken. I dont exactly agree on a ban, but I dont know.

:ss/cofagrigus:
Might potentially be banworthy, but I personally have never had any issues with it. I just either use knock off or switch into my ghost type.

:ss/turtonator:
I dont really have an opinion on this one as i've barely played since alpha.

:ss/sneasel:
Its ok, I guess

:ss/rotom-frost:
Dope as a wallbreaker, even doper on hail teams. Very cool rotom form.

:ss/scrafty:
GIVE US OUR FAIRY TYPES BACK

:ss/kingler:
Again, never had issues with it.

:ss/rhydon:
Might go to RU bc gigalith's rise

:ss/toxicroak:
Its great, but not banworthy

:ss/garbodor:
Same with toxicroak
Hey, I am glad you want to engage in discussion about the tier, but a lot of your post is basically one liners that don’t add anything to conversation (besides the bit on Vikavolt, which contradicts itself). In the future, try to include a bit more substance within your posts. Thank you and have a great day :blobuwu:
 

Zneon

formerly f is for frens
its synopsis time baby, just my thoughts on these mons



Absolutely wack, Vikavolt has pretty much no switch ins, you will always need to either sack something or get something pretty much useless to come in and become momentum fodder, its genuinely hard to deal with especially with it getting Roost back, not to mention it has other tricks up its sleeve with Specs, Agility + 3 attacks, etc. I'm not going to explain it as much since Disjunction and Rabia explained this thing so much better but it is pretty insane rn.



I think that this is the most banworthy thing in the tier imo, not only does it outspeed everything after a boost with Timid but it has so many opportunities to set up with its sheer bulk, HDB is an absolute boon for Turtonator and the problem is the combination of its bulk + HDB, the combination of those 2 make it very effective at setting up on a game to game basis and it is pretty hard to revenge kill because like I said, it outspeeds everything in the tier after a Shell Smash and enough bulk to where you either live a hit from its STAB and kill it or use a scarfer to revenge kill it when its weakened, pretty overbearing at the moment.




I think everyone talked highly about this mon already but I will do that too, Garb is a pretty good contender for best Pokemon in the tier. Its both extremely splashable because of how consistent it is at setting up Spikes and Tspikes as well as its ability to check shit like Sawk and Toxicroak and use them to just set up hazards, not only that but it has offensive presence with Gunk Shot and a pretty flexible 4th move slot for Seed Bomb, Drain Punch Explosion etc. Garb impacts the tier really heavily atm with centering NU around hazards, and easily the most splashable Pokemon in NU atm. Like Disjuction and Rabia, this is the most impactful and important Pokemon in the tier that isn't banworthy.



Best rocker and its not hard to see why. While this does have competition with Sandaconda due to the invaluable Glare support for Balance, its sheer offensive presence with its STAB and great attack stat and better defenses make it a much better overall Pokemon than Sandaconda.




Frigging borked. Like Vikavolt this Pokemon has pretty much 0 switch ins, and extremely limited counterplay. Agility + 3 attacks, Scarf and LO + 3 attacks have all seen use and they are all equally as overbearing and broken, its really hard to prep for and puts a pretty massive strain on teambuilding from my experience, hence I think Kingler should definitely go.



This used to be a top 3 Pokemon, not anymore though. It's extremely good though with its superb defensive utility and threatening offensive presnece with the OTR + NP set, but like people said before, it is much easier to pressure and threaten with more Pokemon regaining Knock Off and hazards warping the metagame.

that was fun, this tier is extremely fun too, looking forward to see what is going to be voted and looking forward to playing this tier even more! :blobnom:
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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OU & NU Leader
Helllo everyone. Recently, the NU Council nominated a list of Pokemon for our first round of voting and now this voting is complete. Below you will be able to see the results of the vote; anything with a majority vote is now banned. There is a chance that we look back into any of these Pokemon in the future, so keep that in mind as well. Our major goal with this is to get a tier as balanced as possible in a timely fashion. With that said, here is the voting:


In conclusion, through this round of voting: Vikavolt, Turtonator, and Kingler are banned from NU effective immediately. Tagging The Immortal so this can be implemented -- thank you very much!

:vikavolt:

Due to its extraordinary offensive power and coverage, Vikavolt has been deemed banworthy in the current metagame. The addition of Heavy-Duty Boots in Generation 8 allows Vikavolt to come in far more frequently than in the previous generation, which means it can either fire off strong special attacks or pivot out with Volt Switch. Combine this with the fact that Vikavolt's best answers are fairly passive Pokemon, such as specially defensive Flareon and Togedemaru, and you have a Pokemon that can pressure the opponent more easily than anything else in the tier.

:turtonator:

Turtonator has been voted out of NU due to its powerful Shell Smash set. Fire-Dragon offensive coverage is currently unresisted in NU, and Turtonator is more than powerful enough at +2 Special Attack to abuse that. Additionally, NU is comparatively much slower this generation, so Turtonator is able to outspeed the vast majority of the tier at +2 Speed. All of this combined with its great natural bulk, the plethora of set up opportunities it has, coverage options like Earthquake, and the addition of Heavy-Duty Boots to supplement its weakness to Stealth Rocks enables Turtonator to be too powerful for the current NU metagame.

:Kingler:

Kingler also received enough support to be banned from the NU metagame; with a powerful array of physical attacks coupled with Sheer Force, it should be no surprise that the krab was a bit too much for the metagame. While there was some counterplay, most of it was situational, depending upon specific pivoting in order to remain safe from the physical onslaught Kingler has at its finger claw-tips. Alternatively, revenge killing can be possible earlier on in games, but it oftentimes requires fodder and can grow challenging later on in games as Kingler has a respectable speed tier within this metagame. While Pokemon like Eldegoss can slow the progress of Kingler, we ultimately believe that there is not enough to answer Kingler throughout the metagame; therefore, we voted to ban it.
 
Helllo everyone. Recently, the NU Council nominated a list of Pokemon for our first round of voting and now this voting is complete. Below you will be able to see the results of the vote; anything with a majority vote is now banned. There is a chance that we look back into any of these Pokemon in the future, so keep that in mind as well. Our major goal with this is to get a tier as balanced as possible in a timely fashion. With that said, here is the voting:


In conclusion, through this round of voting: Vikavolt, Turtonator, and Kingler are banned from NU effective immediately. Tagging The Immortal so this can be implemented -- thank you very much!

:vikavolt:

Due to its extraordinary offensive power and coverage, Vikavolt has been deemed banworthy in the current metagame. The addition of Heavy-Duty Boots in Generation 8 allows Vikavolt to come in far more frequently than in the previous generation, which means it can either fire off strong special attacks or pivot out with Volt Switch. Combine this with the fact that Vikavolt's best answers are fairly passive Pokemon, such as specially defensive Flareon and Togedemaru, and you have a Pokemon that can pressure the opponent more easily than anything else in the tier.

:turtonator:

Turtonator has been voted out of NU due to its powerful Shell Smash set. Fire-Dragon offensive coverage is currently unresisted in NU, and Turtonator is more than powerful enough at +2 Special Attack to abuse that. Additionally, NU is comparatively much slower this generation, so Turtonator is able to outspeed the vast majority of the tier at +2 Speed. All of this combined with its great natural bulk, the plethora of set up opportunities it has, coverage options like Earthquake, and the addition of Heavy-Duty Boots to supplement its weakness to Stealth Rocks enables Turtonator to be too powerful for the current NU metagame.

:Kingler:

Kingler also received enough support to be banned from the NU metagame; with a powerful array of physical attacks coupled with Sheer Force, it should be no surprise that the krab was a bit too much for the metagame. While there was some counterplay, most of it was situational, depending upon specific pivoting in order to remain safe from the physical onslaught Kingler has at its finger claw-tips. Alternatively, revenge killing can be possible earlier on in games, but it oftentimes requires fodder and can grow challenging later on in games as Kingler has a respectable speed tier within this metagame. While Pokemon like Eldegoss can slow the progress of Kingler, we ultimately believe that there is not enough to answer Kingler throughout the metagame; therefore, we voted to ban it.
Hey guys, since I was anti-ban, I thought I'd post some reasonings.


Maybe I just meme too much but I didn't want Vikavolt banned. (like most things in general lol) It's obviously a very strong wallbreaker, but I had fun using some cool counters like Clefairy, Sp Def Turtonator (rip him), Stunfisk Galar, Togedemaru, Flareon, Dusclops and Hakamo-o so most of the time I wasn't struggling when I mostly rely on balance. When I wasn't relying on them, my teams were able to pressure vikavolt with super effective coverage or just being faster since Vikavolt is very slow. Even when you have offensive teams, you can still play mind games like switching into predicted moves, then pressuring the next turn. Vikavolt is fine to handle because it'll most likely only get one kill or two kills at most for being too slow against hyper offense of balance.

I was anti ban Kingler because.... it wasn't super threatening to me but still good. It's super strong with great coverage. but its results weren't always consistent. You don't even need to rely on defensive counters because there are some offensive checks that outspeed and OHKO back. (Silvally Water and Silvally Dragon especially because they can withstand any attack on the switch in then then outspeed and OHKO with coverage or stabs. Toxicroak and Gourgeist-Small too if you watch out for stomping tantrum and knock. I guess even for offensive teams if you don't have a check you should be able to outspeed and pressure since 75 speed is only average then it has paper thin special bulk which limits its opportunities. Stall and balance can use Pyukumuku, Gourgeist-Super, Appletun, Eldegoss (I guess), Shiinotic and king Goom with a few others which serve mostly as hard counters. I'd only say Eldegoss and Pyuk are the most passive so they aren't all exactly momentum drainers.



Specs Jolteon is still faster and almost kills from full so it must be good. :^) 252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hyper Voice vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 223-263 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Ngl, I wished we still had Turt around. I thought Shell Smash was great but was on the fence about banning it. I wouldnt it say it had a plethora of set up opportunities tho. Maybe a few but not many. Thing is when you use HDB, you lose your bulk when you shell smash and it's special side was never bulky anyway. If you have nothing that can survive +2 hits you surely should have a choice scarf mon or decent priority if you've managed to weaken it down on the shell smash turn. HDB Sturdy Sawk, Scarf haunter, Unfezant and KIngler that the time weren't bad revenge killing options. Also I must be the only one who still uses bulky rhydon which survives +2 Draco M.
 
Hey guys, since I was anti-ban, I thought I'd post some reasonings.


Maybe I just meme too much but I didn't want Vikavolt banned. (like most things in general lol) It's obviously a very strong wallbreaker, but I had fun using some cool counters like Clefairy, Sp Def Turtonator (rip him), Stunfisk Galar, Togedemaru, Flareon, Dusclops and Hakamo-o so most of the time I wasn't struggling when I mostly rely on balance. When I wasn't relying on them, my teams were able to pressure vikavolt with super effective coverage or just being faster since Vikavolt is very slow. Even when you have offensive teams, you can still play mind games like switching into predicted moves, then pressuring the next turn. Vikavolt is fine to handle because it'll most likely only get one kill or two kills at most for being too slow against hyper offense of balance.

I was anti ban Kingler because.... it wasn't super threatening to me but still good. It's super strong with great coverage. but its results weren't always consistent. You don't even need to rely on defensive counters because there are some offensive checks that outspeed and OHKO back. (Silvally Water and Silvally Dragon especially because they can withstand any attack on the switch in then then outspeed and OHKO with coverage or stabs. Toxicroak and Gourgeist-Small too if you watch out for stomping tantrum and knock. I guess even for offensive teams if you don't have a check you should be able to outspeed and pressure since 75 speed is only average then it has paper thin special bulk which limits its opportunities. Stall and balance can use Pyukumuku, Gourgeist-Super, Appletun, Eldegoss (I guess), Shiinotic and king Goom with a few others which serve mostly as hard counters. I'd only say Eldegoss and Pyuk are the most passive so they aren't all exactly momentum drainers.



Specs Jolteon is still faster and almost kills from full so it must be good. :^) 252 SpA Choice Specs Jolteon Hyper Voice vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 223-263 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Ngl, I wished we still had Turt around. I thought Shell Smash was great but was on the fence about banning it. I wouldnt it say it had a plethora of set up opportunities tho. Maybe a few but not many. Thing is when you use HDB, you lose your bulk when you shell smash and it's special side was never bulky anyway. If you have nothing that can survive +2 hits you surely should have a choice scarf mon or decent priority if you've managed to weaken it down on the shell smash turn. HDB Sturdy Sawk, Scarf haunter, Unfezant and KIngler that the time weren't bad revenge killing options. Also I must be the only one who still uses bulky rhydon which survives +2 Draco M.
Can you explain why you voted BAN for Toxicroak? Why do you think that this is, out of the other mons, the most banworthy?
 
I’m kinda sad that Vikavolt is gone since it was my favorite Pokémon in the whole tier to use with either Specs,Agility or Sticky Web but I have to agree it was kinda broken.Kingler needed to get the heck out that thing was super op lol.Turtanator never gave me any issues though
 
Imma share my own opinion on these mons, especially after the bans

:ss/vikavolt:
BANNED. I will definetely miss this pokemon down here. I can see why its banworthy, but I personally would've voted NO if I could. Welcome to RU, my friends.

:ss/cofagrigus:
Cofagrigus just lost one of the tier's biggest special wallbreakers. Clearly the best wall in the tier. I dont see why this isnt banned.

:ss/scrafty:
Banworthy! There are no good fairy types in the tier to deal with this thing right now. RU can deal with this beast.

:ss/kingler:
RIP mah boi kingler

:ss/toxicroak:
Excellent, but counterplay does exist
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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Imma share my own opinion on these mons, especially after the bans

:ss/vikavolt:
BANNED. I will definetely miss this pokemon down here. I can see why its banworthy, but I personally would've voted NO if I could. Welcome to RU, my friends.

:ss/cofagrigus:
Cofagrigus just lost one of the tier's biggest special wallbreakers. Clearly the best wall in the tier. I dont see why this isnt banned.

:ss/scrafty:
Banworthy! There are no good fairy types in the tier to deal with this thing right now. RU can deal with this beast.

:ss/kingler:
RIP mah boi kingler

:ss/toxicroak:
Excellent, but counterplay does exist
Hey, I am glad you want to engage in discussion about the tier, but a lot of your post is basically one liners that don’t add anything to conversation (besides the bit on Vikavolt, which contradicts itself). In the future, try to include a bit more substance within your posts. Thank you and have a great day :blobuwu:



Anyway...


This will probably be the most immediate Kingler replacement that people will be drawn to, given that it shares many traits such as Swords Dance, potent Water-, Rock-, & Ground-type coverage, Superpower, and similar speed. Drednaw even has 'pseudo-Agility' in the form of Rain Dance + Swift Swim, allowing it to blitz past most Scarfers even with an Adamant nature while pummeling them with Rain-boosted Water STAB. It's definitely more manageable than Kingler was due to the annoying weaknesses that its Rock-type brings (EQ & Mach Punch weakness hindering setup & sweeping opportunities respectively), but it will certainly prove itself capable in this meta.


All of the 3 banned Pokemon gave Perrserker some trouble, but now it has less obstacles in its path to start punching holes into stuff. The amount of bulky Steel resists in this tier are honestly rather few, plus it has powerful attacks with respectable neutral coverage like Iron Head, Close Combat, and even Play Rough or Seed Bomb, it can augment its corebreaking abilties Swords Dance / Taunt or just offer mundane support in Fake Out + U-turn or whatever. While Perrserker's bulk is less than satisfactory, it should be able to make use of its resistances at least once per match to start breaking cores, and Perrserker has the power and bulk to even make use of resist berries like Chople Berry to punish overeager Fighting-types or Shuca Berry to open up attacking opportunities against Ground-types like Rhydon and Piloswine.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Perrserker Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 304-358 (100.3 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Scrafty Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Perrserker: 168-198 (59.5 - 70.2%)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Perrserker Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 294-348 (108.4 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Perrserker Play Rough vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 296-352 (88.6 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Tough Claws Perrserker Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 188-224 (53.5 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Perrserker Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 270-318 (66.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Perrserker may not be a particularly flashy Pokemon in NU but having more breathing room due to the absence of some of its frequent checks should make it a bit more interesting to play with.
 
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Finally something to discuss.
At first I want to give my opinion about the bans:
:ss/kingler:
I have this feeling whenever I join a tier, there is always a broken crab in it. First Crawdaunt in UU and now this. A shame.
Kingler is one of those mons that is perfectly made to play brain dead. Clicking Sheer Force-boosted Life Orb Liquidation has nearly no drawbacks. Its coverage in Knock Off is also super spammable on its own and hits one of the counters (Gourgeist) for super effective damage. X-Scissor for other Grass-Types like Appletun and Eldegoss and High Horsepower for the offensive check in Toxicroak gave this thing the perfect coverage to deal with all of its switchins. Heck, I even saw someone using Ice Beam which gets also boosted by Sheer Force and Life Orb. Not to mention it could perform more than this AOA-set; it has good set-up moves in Sword Dance and Agility. Choice Scarf is something that really rose up in usage lately but Im not a big fan of this set; still very viable revenge-killer.
I can see the point that its too overwhelming for the tier even though I can't remember having so much trouble with it. Sure I made bad plays and it got one SD or one Agility and the swept my whole team or I sacked my counter to early in the game but that is just me playing bad. Not sure if I will miss this thing or not.

:ss/Turtonator:
Out of the three that got banned, Turtonator is the one that I will miss most. I think it was a really cool addition to the tier. It was my favorite spinner 'cause it beats Cofagrigus 1vs1. Its dual typing is great for checking stuff like Gourgeist(Grass-Types in general except Appletun), Vikavolt or Togedemaru and it was one of the best if not the best Fire-Type we had.
What made this mon so powerful is its Shell Smash-set and awesome dual STABs in Fire and Dragon. Besides Scarfers or Sturdy+Heavy-Duty Boots and some mons that are naturally faster even after +2 from Shell Smash I cant really see much counter play. I helped myself by pressuring it offensively to never let it set-up Shell Smash for free.
Personally if just banning Shell Smash would be a thing I would've done that. Without that its not that much of an offensive threat and could stay with us.

:ss/Vikavolt:
I absolutely hate this mon for what it forces me to run. Sure it had some counters e.g. SpD Togedemaru or SpD Turtonator (even though this wasn't a thing but it could have) but I hate these. Especially Togedemaru.
Specs has no real switchins except Toge and sets with HDB and Roost have a longevity like Blissey (exaggerated). Agility is something that I never thought was good. For me its just a waste of coverage or momentum which this thing generates like nothing. I totally agree on the BAN and will NOT miss this. Rot in the BL-Hell.
I guess it kinda falls in the same category with Kingler: super fun to use but annoying to play against.


With these out of the way, I want to give my opinion on two mons that have benefit from the rose and ban of our top fairies, one mon I had a lot of fun with and a real discussion on Cofagrigus.


:ss/Scrafty:
This goes back to when RU took Silvally-Fairy from us and Slurpuff got banned from NU. Scrafty is a legit threat with great dual STABs and the coverage to hit Fairy-Types. Three viable abilities in Shed Skin for Bulk Up + Rest - sets that benefit from the recovery and the chance to wake up before two turns of sleep; Moxie for Dragon Dance - sets that take advantage of the snowball effect and Intimidate for bulkier-sets (I never saw Intimidate on Scrafty).
Imo the Dragon Dance - set is superior to the Bulk Up + Rest - set 'cause its harder to check. E.g. if you set-up on the switch to e.g. Rotom-Fan or Mr. Mime they are still faster and threaten you back with super effective moves. Dragon Dance just takes advantage of being faster than your checks while still increasing your Attack-Stat.
I tried some counters for this, one being Punchshrooms Chople Berry Perrserker which worked really good. Its also not totally meme since you also check Malamar with 4 times effective U-Turn or just to stay in on stuff that could have fighting coverage.
Choice Scarf Mr. Mime is also pretty good, I like it way more than Rapidash-Galar 'cause it doesn't have to run inaccurate moves.
Mawile with its unique typing and Fairy-STAB + Intimidate has the potential to check it as well.
Also keep in mind that mons with a base speed of 95 and higher outspeed +2 Scrafty when they are holding a Choice Scarf.
Cool mon, we'll see what the futur brings for us.

:ss/Malamar:
I know Im a bit late with these two 'cause they both had Silvally-Fairy keeping their potential low but nobody talked about this one so far.
Malamar faces competition from Scrafty for being a bulky set-up sweeper. but both have different Strengths and Weaknesses. What Malamar has over Scrafty is the fact that it can throw of Sticky Web - teams 'cause it gets an speed boost from that and it beats Scrafty 1vs1. Now don't get me wrong, I personally still think Scrafty is better than Malamar, still they perform different. Malamars 4 times weakness to one of the best pivoting moves is really crippling imo. Also with Vikavolt gone the best webber is gone too so that niche isn't playing out that much.
For counters the first that came in mind is Cofagrigus + Colbur Berry. Haze + Mummy stops Malamar from going rampage and it really can't do much against it. Silvally-Forms that aren't weak to Superpower and/or Knock Off can live a hit from +1 and OHKO it back with U-Turn. Acrobatics Ninjask also comes in pretty much for free (with no rocks up) and threatens it out.
Overall not too strong but can be really dangerous when not prepared for it.

:ss/Abomasnow:
Veil broken.
.
.
.
Just kidding. I mean, Aurora Veil is so good at the moment on offensive, but that is not the Abomasnow I wanna give my thoughts on.
Im talking about Choice Specs Abomasnow, and let me tell you this thing hits hard. It has an amazing offensive dual-typing with Earth Power to cover up that steels and fires. Both its STABs in Blizzard and Leaf Storm have such high BP that they do massive damage to everything that switches in even if they resist the hit. You really just have to lead of with it and start to klick buttons. Played right, this thing breaks almost any defensive core apart.
Looking at my teams, the only thing I could do is pressure it offensively since its pretty slow and has a ton of weaknesses, but ones this comes in on my Rhydon or Sandaconda something has to die.
Really big fan of this mon.

:ss/Cofagrigus:
I disagree with iLiekMudkipz_ 'cause I don't think Cofagrigus is banworthy. It is for sure one of the best physical walls in the tier and a pretty good sweeper with Trick Room variants but with stuff like Haunter, Sneasel, Skuntank, Scrafty, Toxicroak running Knock Off or Dark Puls, and so on I don't really see a brokenness that makes it worth to be banned. Not to mention that everything runs Toxic these days.
I still like Cofagrigus 'cause it beats most of the Fighting-Types and spinners in the tier which makes it an amazing spin-blocker. Its support movepool also is just really good with Will-O-Wisp, Memento, Toxic Spikes, Haze, Pain Split, Toxic and Knock Off.
Nasty Plot or Iron Defense under Trick Room is really scary when your only Ghost-Resist is Sneasel lol.

Feel free to add your thoughts/criticism on the mons so we start a real discussion in here.
Thanks for reading.
 
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Happy with the bans

Imo those three really were either just very degenerate / brain dead to use in the ladder or for Turtonator’s case just too good for NU.

Vikavolt and Kingler brain dead STAB spam most things in tier and barely anything can live it. Both very similar in terms of what they did but changed depending on what wall you had to face. Kingler had to play a little bit more cautiously vs Cofagrigus while Vikavolt had to optimally use it’s dual STAB to not lock itself into a bad move vs Fairies / Sandaconda. In most cases however, STAB abuse from both generally worked or severely chunked walls and provided very few safe switch ins.

Turtonator dual-STAB and it’s stats were already too good off the jump. It has good use in RU / UU so I’m genuinely surprised it fell that much through the cracks to begin with. Also being fire and dragon made it very positive matchup wise versus some of the best walls in tier. (Cofagrigus, Garbador lacking Stomping Tantrum, Lanturn) Being the general speed to beat is a lot lower versus RU, after one Shell Smash Turtonator was a deathly late game sweeper and out sped most things relevant in NU. Also being one of the few rapid spinners that isn’t garbage or a fighting type. The meta is way too flimsy to make a good argument for him to stay at this time and with his role being very rare to come by in NU I don’t see a potential release from borderline for awhile.

This tier is still very underdeveloped and will continue to be without some other key drops that may come our way (Rapidash / Wheezing). We’ll have to see what occurs in the next couple months or if DLC will change the game.
 

quziel

The Scientist is Gigalith
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Time to hype up a niche pick that does some cool things, because well, my general cycle is to find a niche pick, spam it, and then hype it up (fwiw, laddered up to 1528/#18 on an alt with this mon, and it contributed heavily to the team's success). This time we're talking about the wonder of Mr. Mime (the regular one). A big question will of course be, what does it do for me, and why am I including it on a team. The answer there is pretty simple, it is one of the tier's few remaining Fairy types, it has a relatively high special attack stat, and good coverage, as well as sufficient speed to function as a scarfer. An immediate followup question will be why are you using this over Rapidash-Galar, which is where NU's current physical bias comes into importance; Mime's Psychic does up to 51.5% to offensive Rhydon while Rapidash's High Horsepower does up to 33%.



Mr. Mime @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Filter
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Healing Wish
- Dazzling Gleam
- Mystical Fire

This is a fairly simple set; you have STABs + Mystical Fire + utility in Healing Wish. Now lets move onto the most important part of the set; calcs.

252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scrafty: 288-340 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Falinks: 248-294 (91.5 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 153-180 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Sandaconda: 156-184 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cofagrigus: 118-139 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 290-344 (79.8 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mr. Mime Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mr. Mime-Galar: 148-176 (61.4 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dubwool: 94-112 (27 - 32.1%) -- 58.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery


0 Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 136-162 (61.5 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 175-207 (79.1 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Falinks Throat Chop vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 155-183 (70.1 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Haunter Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mr. Mime: 181-216 (81.9 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mr. Mime: 153-181 (69.2 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Filter Mr. Mime: 108-127 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO

0 Atk Sandaconda Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 162-192 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 232-274 (104.9 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 0 Def Dubwool Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 81-96 (36.6 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


As ya can see, it generally rkills a fair number of relevant fighting type sweepers (aka Falinks and Scrafty) assuming even a small amount of chip or a lucky roll. Additionally, it turns out that Fairy and Psychic coverage are sorta hard to resist atm, which means that, at least in my experience, its a very competent cleaner, which is really where this set shines; moreso than Scarf Galarapidash or Togedemaru, this set is able to clean through a weakened team far earlier and far easier. Healing Wish is also insanely useful for a team, and really can enable you to just win with specific sweepers, eg taking on a OTR Cofag twice in a game can be awful difficult. And finally, unlike Galarapidash, its special, meaning that it isn't crippled by WoW, nor is it going to take recoil damage from an opponent who is playing their Garbodor super aggressively.
 
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What are you all using to check Haunter atm? My teams always seem to end up with an awkward match-up against Haunter, and I'm not sure what the best way to build against it is. Sludge moves/Shadow Ball can be nasty to switch into, especially if the Haunter is LO/Specs. After that, Haunter has any of Dazzling Gleam (rip scrafty), Energy Ball, and Thunderbolt to work with for coverage. And then, if it wants to dump its choice item onto an incoming wall, it can click Trick and your wall is a lot harder to use.

115 SpAtk makes it the third highest SpAtk in the tier (not counting PU mons), behind Cursola and Drampa, and 95 Speed makes it the 8th fastest mon in the tier (behind Jolt, Sneasel, Froslass, G-Mime, G-Rapidash, Gourgeist-S, and Toge, and again without PU mons.) I've considered G-Rapidash, but it doesn't switch into its STABs, and there's no way to trap Haunter, so it can just retreat and come back in later.

It's an awkward mon for my teams to play against, and I'd just like to see what you all use to deal with it : )
 
The Vikavolt, Kingler, and Turt bans were much appreciated, as the meta is finally settling down to be a bit more balanced. It's still not perfect, and I'd like to bring attention to a few qualities that make it unbalanced:

Skewed in HO's Favor:
:Abomasnow: :butterfree: :cofagrigus: :crustle: :cursola: :drednaw: :mr. mime-galar::sandaconda: :scrafty: :sneasel: :toxicroak: :togedemaru:

HO is currently the most viable, consistent playstyle in the relative meta because of the remaining offensive powerhouses. The fact of the matter is that bulkier teams are unable to consistently build for all the available wallbreakers and sweepers, and ultimately succumb to the wrong match up. It is near impossible to defensively build nor play around everything here at the moment, whether that be the multiple Scrafty / Toxicroak / and SD Silvally sets or forms, ridiculously strong Choice-locked breakers like Abomasnow / Sneasel / Haunter / Drampa, multiple and effective suicide leads of Cursola / Drednaw / Golruk / Frosslass, and even the niche but still scary sweepers of Butterfree / Swoobat / Malamar / Crustle / and Iron Defense Dubwool / Cofagrigus.

Thats not to say all of those aforementioned sets are equally broken with each other, but that the combination of them and many more makes defensive builds inherently MU dependent. It is much easier to break past these mons with offensive builds that keep the momentum going. The current NU list somewhat reflects this trend too; about 8 or so mons are only used for the defensive merit alone and do not have a viable bulky offense / HO set.

As an avid ladder player and HO user myself, I must admit my bias in that I do enjoy the current skew / favoritism, but I do recognize how this is somewhat unhealthy. I am also unsure what a probable solution would be in the short run, so instead I'll continue the conversation on what I've observed as working on my recent ladder topping runs:

:abomasnow: Choice Specs Abomasnow: The only safe switch in to this thing isn't even in the tier yet by usage, and its full special def Clefairy. With Mantine gone, all common remaining special def walls like Flareon, Scrafty, Ferroseed, AV Hitmonchan, and Stunfisk-Galar all get 2HKO'd with its coverage and Hail chip. Blizzard being complimented with Earth Power and a solid Grass STAB of Giga Drain is all it needs to tear the entire tier down. What makes it better is that solid Grass-typing, allowing Abomansow to come into Ground-types when they use Stealth Rock or Earthquake. It also offers a resistance and immunity to Eldegoss's Giga Drain and Leaf Storm, respectively, which offers another great switch in. Even Goss's Pollen Puff is too weak to 2HKO, and Abomasnow's natural bulk is great in other areas like living a U-Turn from Togedemaru or Stone Edge from Sandaconda. Abomasnow's only flaw is that it can be tough to play due to its Choice lock (which it needs for the aforementioned 2HKOs), but that is a very small price to pay and ultimately is tougher for the opponent than the user.

:scrafty: The Multiple Scrafty Sets: Scrafty is a mon with a ton of variation, and really any set can fit on any build or playstyle. Look no further than Yoshi's teambuilding thread for all the different inspirations and sets it can run on different teams. It's hard to say what a good, guaranteed Scrafty check is because of its different opportunity costs in Zen Headbutt / Iron Head / Bulk Up / Shed Skin + Rest, which all allow it to get around its normal checks. Even the best checks, like phys def Clefairy / Shiinotic / Sturdy Sawk have to worry about chip damage or a 30% flinch from Iron Head for the 2HKO. The best options at the moment for DD Scrafty is physdef Intimidate Hitmontop and Colbur Body Press Cofagrigus, but those lose to BU Scrafty! Most of the time, teams need multiple options, and having Garbodor as a check if not sack for Choice Scarf Haunter to come in and revenge with Dazzling Gleam is often the most viable counter measure. Even if Scrafty doesn't sweep, the fact that many teams have to sack and revenge kill with non-STAB, weak coverage attacks gives the window for HO's setup sweepers like Klinklang / Silvally / Dubwool / Cofagrigus to sweep. Scrafty is totally a monster right now, and some discussion ought to be made on its future in NU.

:togedemaru: Teambuilder Go-To Togedemaru: Offense time after time again resorts to Choice Scarf Togedemaru as its reliable form of Speed control and to fill multiple needed resistances and MUs. Most of offense lacks solid and reliable Ice-, Flying-, Dragon-, Psychic-, and Fairy-type switch ins, so having Toge fill all these and survive most of these attacks at least once is super reliable. Toge is also faster than most other Choice-scarf users like Rotom-S, Unfezant, and Haunter, all of which Toge can beat 1v1 as is. On top of that, Toge's STABs being a 30% flinch rate makes any wincondition that is slower than it like Crustle / Falinks / DD Scrafty that much more unreliable if they're 2HKO'd and fall from a flinch. There's also the last attack in either Nuzzle or Toxic, with the former being a great form of extra speed control or the latter being great for wearing down checks like Cofagrigus / Lanturn. Thats not to mention its abilities offer some great utility when you need them on a team as well. Toge is a great go-to for these qualities and more, and is one of the most prominent staples on any offensive build.

:silvally: The Silvally Forms - What's working?: After RU stole Silvally-Fairy, NU has been in a bit of a scramble to see what Silvally form(s) will arise to take its place. The answer? Well, almost any Silvally form has a niche in my humble opinion. It largely has to do with the blessing that is a 95 base speed tier, which in tandem with a 120 bp STAB and SD / pivoting makes Silvally forms so scary. I want to backup this statement with a team that I had topped the ladder with (1624 ELO) and its use of Silvally-Psychic. In games like this, Silvally-Psyhcic shows as super threatening to all the tier's Poison- and Fighting-types, making the opponent be forced to sack their Crustle wincon and succumb to the offensive pressure. I eventually switched to Silvally-Ground, but teams like that show that Silvally forms are all very threatening. Right now, the most accurate answer is Silvally-Water. Its a great offensive pick that has Psychic Fangs to revenge kill Toxicroak safely, and can check CB Sneasel decently enough as well. It works awesomely as a Defog user too, as it pressures most users with its coverage, and can be even better at the role if it specs to be defensive and have Surf / Flamethrower coverage for Ferroseed and Abomasnow. The next two that seem the most worthwhile are Silvally-Ground and Poison, as even though they have a lot of competition type wise in the tier, their offensive or defensive properties totally merit their use..

:haunter: What are we using to check Haunter atm?: Long story short, not much! Haunter is a big beast for its centralizing speed tier and strong dual-STAB coverage, and has multiple sets (Scarf / Specs / LO / Sub Disable) that all see usage and work. Like Scrafty, it is somewhat going to depend on the set, as its coverage and power really scare out its would-be checks. As for the offensive scarf / LO specs sets, Wish Togedemaru / Stunfisk-Galar / Skunktank all tank, but worry about Trick and Wisp for their damage outputs, or worse having their one attack to target Haunter be Disabled. Special def Ferroseed with two attacks in Gyro Ball and Knock Off can do a decent job of both scouting and scaring out Haunter, while Piloswine as well can but again doesn't enjoy being Burned or hit by a specs Energy Ball. That coverage and power on the specs set makes Sandaconda / Rhydon / Scrafty / Flareon all really unable to switch in safely, as even Flareon is guaranteed to lose if it gets poisoned from Sludge Bomb. Good bait for Haunter can be Payback Garbodor, which otherwise Haunters try to switch in on thinking they will be fine with its normal Gunk Shot / Stomping Tantrum coverage. Theres also a ton of decent revenge killers that can be risky switch ins if played that way like scarf Togedemaru, CB Sneasel, Shadow Sneak Gourgiest-Small, AV Throat Chop Hitmonchan, Shift Gear Klang, and Psychic Fangs Silvally-Poison and -Dark can all work too. Nothings perfect, so you'll have to make do.
What are you all using to check Haunter atm? My teams always seem to end up with an awkward match-up against Haunter, and I'm not sure what the best way to build against it is. Sludge moves/Shadow Ball can be nasty to switch into, especially if the Haunter is LO/Specs. After that, Haunter has any of Dazzling Gleam (rip scrafty), Energy Ball, and Thunderbolt to work with for coverage. And then, if it wants to dump its choice item onto an incoming wall, it can click Trick and your wall is a lot harder to use.

115 SpAtk makes it the third highest SpAtk in the tier (not counting PU mons), behind Cursola and Drampa, and 95 Speed makes it the 8th fastest mon in the tier (behind Jolt, Sneasel, Froslass, G-Mime, G-Rapidash, Gourgeist-S, and Toge, and again without PU mons.) I've considered G-Rapidash, but it doesn't switch into its STABs, and there's no way to trap Haunter, so it can just retreat and come back in later.

It's an awkward mon for my teams to play against, and I'd just like to see what you all use to deal with it : )
 

Eternally

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The second round of council voting has concluded. Below you will be able to see the results of the vote; anything with a majority vote is now banned. There is a good chance that anything banned throughout this beta stage will be retested in the future depending on tier shifts.



In conclusion, through this round of voting: Scrafty is banned from NU effective immediately. Tagging The Immortal so this can be implemented -- thank you very much!


Scrafty was deemed banworthy due to its unhealthy effect on the metagame. Scrafty's checks are already rather limited, but because its two sets have fairly distinct counterplay, games become very matchup heavy very quickly. Dragon Dance sets have insane snowballing potential, improve Scrafty's offense matchup greatly thanks to the Speed boost, and can pick and choose counterplay depending on whether they use Zen Headbutt or Iron Head. Meanwhile, defensive Bulk Up sets can be very hard to overwhelm and have a fairly large amount of setup opportunities thanks to Scrafty's solid bulk and defensive typing.
 
:ss/gourgeist-small:
Gourgeist-Small @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Disable
- Power Whip

I've been having a lot of success with SubDisable Gourg-Small paired with Toxic Spikes. The 99 base speed outspeeds virtually everything relevant outside of Sneasel, which is almost always Choice Band so you can still win if it comes in and you have a substitute up (or you can just go for Power Whip to immediately remove the Sneasel). The low base HP is also good to sub indefinitely against a lot of threats with just Leech Seed and Leftovers recovery. Max attack Power Whip still hits stupidly hard at times, helpful to delete a Water Silvally or a Mr.Mime or whatever.

Some replays:
Replay 1 Gourg manages to win lategame vs a Ferroseed+Togetic core virtue of its Grass typing and Ferroseed only having Knock to damage the substitute.
Replay 2 The strength of Power Whip brings this game back, dealing nearly 50% to an offensive Scrafty and OHKOing Sneasel in order to win.
Replay 3 Beats down Dubwool and the now-banned Scrafty thanks to Disable.
Replay 4 I actually manage to keep spikes up for once and as a result the win comes much quicker

Anyways, fun mon. Recent bans (especially Vikavolt, Bug Buzz was a menace) has made this set all the better.
 

Rabia

POGGAROO
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GP Co-Leader
sure, I can defend those two votes

Toxicroak is one of the most overwhelming offensive forces in the tier right now and is just dumb to prepare for in the builder because of the differences in checks between the physical and special sets. Ignoring Swords Dance, all-out attacker physical sets are extremely potent, with Knock Off being an option to neuter checks like Sandaconda and Garbodor and Earthquake getting rid of Garbodor and opposing Toxicroak. Then there's Nasty Plot, which I view as the more potent set because of how limited reliable counterplay is to such variants. Focus Blast / Shadow Ball / Vacuum Wave lets Toxicroak hit all it needs to outside of like, Clefairy(?), which isn't a very difficult Pokemon to take advantage of. There are sets beyond those two of course; I mentioned Swords Dance earlier, but Choice Scarf is also a generally great way to bypass certain counterplay like Haunter and extend Toxicroak's utility a bit further.

My Haunter vote follows similar reasoning to my Sneasel vote; they're two fast wallbreakers that have a STAB move that can be fairly difficult to punish. The arguments I heard for Haunter mostly revolved around it not OHKOing a lot of foes; I think that's an incredibly weak take. It doesn't need to OHKO the entire metagame to put incredible stress on it. Haunter can very easily 2HKO most defensive switch-ins---the only two I can think of off the top of my head that take more than two hits are Flareon and Skuntank---and Shadow Ball + Sludge Bomb/Wave is generally just really hard to deal with. From my experience, unless you have a dedicated "Haunter switch-in," playing against it is mostly flipping a coin and hoping you're always correct. Base 95 Speed isn't even bad in this metagame, and Haunter's shitty bulk is offset by still great defensive utility, with three immunities and a very useful 4x Poison resistance giving it ample opportunity to switch in.

I'm not saying that either of these Pokemon can't be dealt with in the builder/in context of a battle. They definitely can, and counterplay extends beyond just defensive switch-ins. But I think teambuilding can feel a bit strained currently and that getting rid of Pokemon like these two (and Sneasel) eases the building process and gives more room for reliably branching out.
 
Haunter also has a 1/4 bug resistance. It’s frail, but it hits really hard and has very few counters. Haunter in the previous gen was pursuit bait and spent its move set trying to avoid that, but now it doesn’t have to have niche moves like hp ground (doesn’t exist either), substitute or will o wisp and can instead fully focus on walkbreaking. It is definitely possible to counter, and you can pull from NFE or LC mons to do so. Sliggoo, Pawniard and Munchlax are some examples. I don’t know if Haunter should be banned or not, but it definitely is very powerful.
Edit: Scarf Haunter has trick and can devastate these eviolite users...
 
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