Metagame NP: NU Stage 1- Criminal (Indeedee-F and Porygon2 banned)

[The Goomy]

Quick question for the council:

Is there a particular reason that Drought was not on the list of things to vote for?

I know that in order to deem an ability broken it has to be broken on every user of it possible in the given tier, but we only have Vulpix (the worst Drought user). So even if other things dropped to us, they would just be even more effective.

NUPL has shown that sun teams put on an insane amount of pressure in the meta and are pretty difficult to deal with if played competently.

To me, there are a couple reasons for this.
1. Pursuit is gone. Because pursuit is missing from gen 8, the opponent can not punish for leading with Vulpix by pursuit trapping the sun setter. This essentially guarantees a minimum of 16 turns of sun in a game.

2. Weather ball. Having fire + grass coverage is insane for NU as really nothing wants to switch in to either, and the ones that do lack reliable recovery (barring Flareon + Drampa).

Really I’d like to see more discussion around Drought as it’s very easy to win games with little thought, even at the NUPL level.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Finchinator]

We are discussing Drought currently and will not be afraid to act on this topic if we deem it appropriate. There are members of council who already believe this is the case and we do not want to ignore a pressing issue, so expect more in the near future!

 

[lax]

Drought is dumb, brainless, and too easy to use. My NUPL team has used it countless times, and won every game with it besides the time we subbed in a player who did not have much SS experience. Any person that has any clue of SS and NU can easily win a mindless game using Drought.

Every pokemon in the game has Weather Ball & Solar Blade/Beam. These moves are incredibly powerful and spammable due to Heat Rock.

Silvaly-Fire used to be the premier non-Chloro sweeper due to being able to spam 240 Power hits for free under Sun in a tier that lacks many Fire resists.

Enter Rapidash, one of the fastest viable pokemon that has new access to Boots, Swords Dance, and Solar Blade too because fuck it. It outspeeds 95% of the tier and is powerful under sun. It frees up Silvally to be another type or replaces it entirely. Just another massive threat to make sun even more potent.

Every single lower tier has deemed Sun OP in some way (UU banned the overwhelming Venusaur, RU Shiftry, PU Drought) besides us. In all the other lower tiers, the council thought there was something, even a single pokemon, that made Sun an unfair playstyle to fight against.

Go ahead and watch some NUPL games and tell me this playstyle isn’t unhealthy. It requires a lot of fucking up, misplacement of pokemon, or just the wrong team to mess this up.

FLCL vs Eternally
snaga vs Adaam
Rabia vs ggggd

and many more. These replays truly exhibit how hard it is to use sun. Before anyone chalks these losses up to teambuilding, how would you make an anti-sun team that can still handle the many threats of SS NU like the Silvallys, Drampa, Vrotom-Frost, etc.

Sorry for format, wrote on phone

BAN DROUGHT

 

[Rabia]

I think it's disingenuous to only show replays of sun winning when its lost just as many times:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-497254 (Tricking vs Enzo Gorlami)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1103854823 (ggggd vs ziloXX)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-493026 (ict vs soulgazer)

I also think it's contradictory to call sun "dumb, brainless, and too easy to use" while also saying that someone without solid metagame knowledge lost with it as a result of their lack of metagame knowledge. In my eyes, if sun was this easy to use, they'd be able to autopilot with it anyhow.

This isn't a post necessarily in defense of sun---despite me being anti-ban on Drought at the moment---and given we just got Rapidash, a potentially very strong tool for sun as lax stated, my opinion is subject to change. I felt it would be in the best interest of the community to see the other side of sun, though, because it's very easy to label something as unfair and broken if you only show it winning.

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

I think it's disingenuous to only show replays of sun winning when its lost just as many times:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-497254 (Tricking vs Enzo Gorlami)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1103854823 (ggggd vs ziloXX)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-493026 (ict vs soulgazer)

I also think it's contradictory to call sun "dumb, brainless, and too easy to use" while also saying that someone without solid metagame knowledge lost with it as a result of their lack of metagame knowledge. In my eyes, if sun was this easy to use, they'd be able to autopilot with it anyhow.

This isn't a post necessarily in defense of sun---despite me being anti-ban on Drought at the moment---and given we just got Rapidash, a potentially very strong tool for sun as lax stated, my opinion is subject to change. I felt it would be in the best interest of the community to see the other side of sun, though, because it's very easy to label something as unfair and broken if you only show it winning.

I personally am very Anti-Drought myself.

Yes, although drought may be OP, we have another very useful sun check in Abomasnow. Abomasnow's viability may have went down with Linoone's ban, but it is still the premier AV setter. Banning drought alone wouldnt stop the issue, as Liepard would still be able to set sun reliably with Prankster+Sunny Day. If drought were to be banned, I think heat rock should be banned as well, even though I am still anti drought ban down here. The only abusers we really have are Rapidash, Silvally-Fire, and Leafeon, all of which are physical attackers.

 

[Davon]

There are quite a few match-ups where sun just demolishes teams currently, but I think part of that is because how newly meta it has become. These are the 2 main questions I asked myself: "Can NU properly prepare for Sun?" and "Will sun evolve further?". Let's start by looking at the counter-play to sun and decide if current teams can fit adaptations or if the counter-play only consists of niche options.

Abomasnow is probably the best option to prepare for sun, but it does have its downsides vs sun as well. While setting hail is nice, it does give Silvally-Fire setup opportunities which is basically a staple on sun teams. Sun teams can equally switch Vulpix into Abomasnow since it survives Choice Specs Blizzard. Abomasnow is a good mon and checking sun is a plus, it's by no means a niche pick.

Fire types are great checks to sun sweepers. They can take any unboosted attack from Leafeon, Maractus, and Ivysaur and retaliate with a sun boosted fire attack. Nothing on sun teams can really switch into Silvally-Fire's or Rapidash's STAB move under sun. Flareon is a weaker pick, but it does counter sun teams fairly well. None of these are niche picks, maybe Flareon could arguably be a niche pick since it kinda sucks outside of checking sun and does have to be mindful of Silvally-Fire's coverage move.

Dragon types resist the powerful attacks sun teams dish out, sometimes it might not be enough to merely resist an attack though in the case of attempting to switch into Silvally-Fire. Drampa can pretty much get a KO against every sun team and being immune to grass is nice. I've seen Drain Punch on Maractus which hits Drampa hard, so it seems sun teams can adapt to the meta quicker than the meta can adapt to sun teams. Silvally-Dragon has the benefit of taking a couple hits and retaliating, although it needs to run Flamethrower to beat the sun sweepers. Fraxure is a niche option IMO and has First Impression to nail Leafeon and Maractus. Sliggoon is another niche option that can't really switch into and beat Silvally-Fire in the sun even if max defense.

Other Options
Protect in theory can help stall out sun turns, but most sun sweepers carry boosting moves that can take advantage of protect. Using Regenerator to pivot into grass moves can help sometimes, but Eldegoss can't really do much in return and is usually forced out. You can see in the FLCL vs Eternally match how using pivoting doesn't work too well to stall out sun turns. I find it very difficult to stall sun turns and it's pretty much impossible to beat sun defensively. Priority can weaken and limit some sweepers, specifically Piloswine's Ice Shard vs the Chlorophyll sweepers, but that depends on the sweeper being worn down already or sacrificing Piloswine. Trick Room is good vs sun, probably the second best way to deal with sun if played right as seen in the ict vs soulgazer game.

My Opinion
I think sun is broken. You need more than one way of counter-playing sun; just having 1 or 2 checks to it won't be enough. It also seems sun is adapting to the meta faster than the meta can adapt to sun (for example, Drain Punch Maractus).

 

[Realistic Waters]

Hey guys, please don't ban sun :( I'm anti-ban so I thought I'd make a post to defend its usage. First, I'm just going to post a bunch of checks and counters vs weather and if you're using balance, you're most likely using one, two or more of the options to pressure back.

Goats

Ninjask
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Acrobatics
- Swords Dance
- Protect
- U-turn

Completely forgot about this mon before but while it's more of a niche option, it almost guarantees a win at team preview. Simply protect once and outspeed everything after a boost and OHKO Maractus/Leafeon and Rapidash after rocks.

Abomasnow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid/Hasty Nature
- Blizzard
- Leaf Storm
- Earth Power
- Focus Blast / other

Just like using Ninjask, Aboma is heavy pressures sun but Choice Scarf almost guarantees a win too. Cancel out weather and outspeed/OHKO all the targets. In general this is kind of cool set anyway and it gives you just enough speed to beat Swoobat.

Check and counters - Not an extensive list but there are enough ways to win

• 
  - chew a sun boosted flare blitz/ solar blade/double-edge and threaten back with stab. If you've been weakened down, Rocky Helmet + Aftermath + LO, move recoil means it's usually a double down.
• 
  - Fire and Dragon with 0/0 bulk check both and ohko back
• 
  Listing Poisonvally separately but defensive defog checks both well enough.
• 
  Chew a hit and ohko back
• 
  A niche option but maybe people should explore the teambuilder more hehe. It has enough bulk and pressures back even at +2
• 
  Alolan Persian switches in and threatens with foul play which usually finishes of dash after flare blitz recoil.
• 
  Super form with colbur should always win vs Leafeon
• 
  Gyro ball and recoil means you should always beat leafeon

Some other choices can win with natural speed / choice scarf or bulk to such as

Checks and Counters

Counters are limited when you take into consideration Maractus has 106 sp.a and the chance to click growth and this is probably hardest thing to beat on sun imo. I'm not sure if people are using timid nature but then that makes you speed tie with togedemru which half takes that off my list as a check :(

• 
  the most viable wall I can think of that takes a +2 hit.
• 
  x4 resistance to grass is so useful you can still tank weather ball w/o sp def investment
• 
  Fire/dragon chew a boosted hit from full in a worst case scenario and ohko back
• 
  chew hits for days but this mon is a bit weird
• 
  Sliggoo 2.0 but has match-up against all 3 and even Ivysaur if you really want to go there :D
• It's something I guess...! Chew even a boosted hit and attack back. It beats Rapidash so it must be good

I should mention Drampa too (I know people mentioned drain punch but you need to be at +2 to ohko). There's a few other unmons but I'm not gonna list them. Half the mons I listed were maybe too niche for some but it's a fairly small choice of switch ins which makes me moving over to using priority/stalling/trick room or choice scarf mons faster than toge so I do partially agree this play-style being a bit strong in this area so sometimes you might need to sacrifice one or two things before you can take down Maractus but i think that's fair for an offensive play-style. I think a few people used Ivysaur which trades raw power for bulk and poison typing but I think that's much more manageable since you'll always need to use up an extra turn which usually isn't worth it.

tldr; Using sun does not guarantee a win; it's a solid play-style but not broken. Even with two checks you still have a good chance of winning if you play correctly especially on balance. There are ample amounts of turn where you have the chance to play mind games or pressure with hazards, status, recoil and priority.

 

[etern]

The NU Council has been discussing the best way to deal with Sun for the past week or so, and after much deliberation we agreed that 'Drought' should be the component we look at and vote on. Here are the results of the resulting council vote, reminder that a majority is needed for a ban to occur.

Therefore, through this round of voting: Drought has been banned from NU effective immediately! Tagging The Immortal and Marty so this can be implemented -- thank you very much! With that being said, if Sun continues to be an issue in the future, the NU Council has no issues with re-examining Drought and experimenting with other ways to address it depending on what needs to be done.

 

[Corthius]

anyone else can read it too, I mean...I can't stop yo

iLiekMudkipz_ pls read this

I like how nobody has replied to this thread since sunday besides me.

Its weird isnt it?

I said it befor in the RU threat and I will say it again:​

Please do not make posts that don't have any substance or aren't well thought out in any way.

I don't know if Im the only one that thinks like that but these posts don't belong here, at least not as it is right now. It is ok to add some fun to your message but please add something about the actual topic of the threat, ok? Watch how he will edit his post after this
To keep my own word, I'll try to add something to not look like a complete fool, lol.

I want to know the public opinion on .
I find myself often forced to run either Clefairy or Alcremie on my team to have a good check to it. I think the only counter we got (from this threat) is Type: Null which i don't really think is outstanding viable, may have some niche. The best counterplay I find myself having success with is to try not letting it in for free. That is often easier said than done. With Wishiwashi and Clefairy being amazing slow pivots and I guess it can come in when you KO an opposing pokemon its really hard to keep the pressure up. The major downside Drampa has is its speed that really isn't great which leaves it vulnerable to revengekiller like Sawk, Abomasnow and Hitmonchan. With that in mind, what are your suggestions to deal with this beast? Are you yes or no for a ban, if so why?

Lets get some fresh wind into this threat.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

anyone else can read it too, I mean...I can't stop yo

iLiekMudkipz_ pls read this

I said it befor in the RU threat and I will say it again:​

I don't know if Im the only one that thinks like that but these posts don't belong here, at least not as it is right now. It is ok to add some fun to your message but please add something about the actual topic of the threat, ok? Watch how he will edit his post after this
To keep my own word, I'll try to add something to not look like a complete fool, lol.

I want to know the public opinion on .
I find myself often forced to run either Clefairy or Alcremie on my team to have a good check to it. I think the only counter we got (from this threat) is Type: Null which i don't really think is outstanding viable, may have some niche. The best counterplay I find myself having success with is to try not letting it in for free. That is often easier said than done. With Wishiwashi and Clefairy being amazing slow pivots and I guess it can come in when you KO an opposing pokemon its really hard to keep the pressure up. The major downside Drampa has is its speed that really isn't great which leaves it vulnerable to revengekiller like Sawk, Abomasnow and Hitmonchan. With that in mind, what are your suggestions to deal with this beast? Are you yes or no for a ban, if so why?

Lets get some fresh wind into this threat.

I was surprised when the last voting slate saw 0 votes for Drampa, as I thought it was easily the most ban worthy mon in the meta before this months shifts. However, I do think there has been a recent trend that has dampened its onslaught.

Drampa has 0 safe switch ins (not counting type null) given that even full special def clef has a 40% chance to be 2HKOd from specs Hyper Voice. Instead, players adapted to pressuring it offensively, given that it has multiple relevant weaknesses that are easily covered through STAB attacks / coverage even, or defensive teams have gotten better scouting like with Protect being on so many movesets. That, and bulkier teams tend to run Clefairy and a Ghost like Cofa or Gourg already, which can it manageable and very hard to play. But thats only the specs set; HDB, Chople, and LO have their niches too that can fit on the right team / put in a ton of work on the right MU, yet are countered by Clef. Its safe to say though that Drampa is likely the most punishing wallbreaker in the tier, and can find switch-ins on walls like Goss, Cofa, and Quag, especially when they use a status move.

I’ll leave it here saying that I think the tier adapted for it it more ways than one, and it ends up with limited windows to capitalize on well-built, well-played teams. That said, well-built teams are subject to the fact that Drampa somewhat dictates for teams to build against it. I think the adaptations are okay, and Drampa has some healthy aspects as a Cofa revenge killer and Fire-type resistance, so I’m not particularly bothered by it anymore. Lastly, I am still open to hear any opposition against it.

 

[Expulso]

I want to know the public opinion on .
I find myself often forced to run either Clefairy or Alcremie on my team to have a good check to it. I think the only counter we got (from this threat) is Type: Null which i don't really think is outstanding viable, may have some niche. The best counterplay I find myself having success with is to try not letting it in for free. That is often easier said than done. With Wishiwashi and Clefairy being amazing slow pivots and I guess it can come in when you KO an opposing pokemon its really hard to keep the pressure up. The major downside Drampa has is its speed that really isn't great which leaves it vulnerable to revengekiller like Sawk, Abomasnow and Hitmonchan. With that in mind, what are your suggestions to deal with this beast? Are you yes or no for a ban, if so why?

Lets get some fresh wind into this threat.

It's true that Drampa doesn't have strict counters to its Choice Specs set. Draco Meteor can KO pretty much all offensive threats while also doing >85% to bulky staples like Wishiwashi. The fairies mentioned above take a lot from Hyper Voice; Clefairy is outsped and 2HKOd 40% of the time and Alcremie takes 63-74%. It's definitely a difficult Pokemon to switch into. Stunfisk-Galar and Ferroseed can be taken out by Fire Blast, letting Drampa spam Draco Meteor very freely in the future.

Despite having decent bulk, its low speed means that it is outsped and 2HKOd by many neutral attacks.
252 Atk Sandaconda Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 163-193 (54.8 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drampa: 142-168 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
That means that Drampa cannot come in versus neutral threats.

Fortunately, it has plenty of resistances, so pretty much every team has 1 or 2 Pokemon that let Drampa in.
Grass: Gourgeist, Eldegoss
Water: Wishiwashi, Silvally-Water, Lanturn
Electric: Rotom-Fan
Fire: Silvally-Fire, Rapidash

Nearly all of these Pokemon can avoid being taken care of by Drampa, although Drampa's presence is restricting for them. All of them have access to U-turn or Volt Switch except for Rapidash, Gourgeist, and Eldegoss. Rapidash can run Low Kick and Gourgeist can run Explosion to combat this problem. Eldegoss is kinda screwed though, honestly, but it's able to outspeed and Spin or damage with Pollen Puff before it dies (although it has decent odds to avoid the OHKO). Drampa is a big threat, but it is able to be contained and adapted to even without the added helpful-ness of a Fairy-type and/or Steel-type on your team. It's difficult, however, and depends on U-turning / Volt Switching out of it before it can switch in against neutral targets like Silvally-Water and Rotom-Fan. Drampa's presence limits what these Pokemon can do, thus making it harder for something like Rotom-Fan to Defog because Drampa would then get a free kill.

The stat drop of Draco Meteor also give offensive teams additional ways to deal with it; Pokemon that can survive one hit, like Wishiwashi, can force Drampa to click Draco twice to kill it, and a -4 Drampa becomes set-up bait. [Notice that I didn't say that a -2 Drampa becomes set-up bait -- -2 Draco still does 50-60 to Cofagrigus ;o]

Although it sounds very scary on paper, I have found it to be more manageable in practice, even with Drampa-weak teams.

Here's a CPL replay where I brought a team that is very weak to Drampa but was able to deal with it by chipping it and then doubling out of obvious opportunities to switch in vs things like Eldegoss:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-499615

Here's a CPL replay where I played vs Drampa with the same Drampa-weak team and it was quite successful against me.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-500855

That said, I think it is a huge threat, and the fact that it can be dealt with does not mean that it isn't a problem. Stuff being forced to Volt out of it or being forced to run suboptimal coverage moves like Dragon Claw on Silv-Water and Low Kick on Rapidash in order to avoid being a switch-in opportunity means that Drampa is clearly a big threat. However, it only has so many opportunities to come in, and I think that its weakness to chip damage and its mediocre speed make opposing teams able to minimize Drampa's effectiveness, holding it to something like, say, 1 sack and 1 kill. Drampa is a very good mon but I think it is definitely able to be played around.

 

[Katy]

with the new tier-shift we have gained and lost the following:

Lost:

Gained: (ghost & steel)

 

[Katy]

due to yesterdays tier-shift we have lost a strong wallbreaker in drampa, it was a nice and dangerous addition to the nu-tier with its
choice specs-set and had a nice typing and solid coverage-moves, however we have new additions to the nu-tier and i want to talk about
them with some sets in my mind. lets start it off with the first pokémon here:


it could be a nice bulky addition to the nu-tier capable of checking a lot of physical threats due to its high defense and its can provide support with
its access to rapid-spin and with heavy-duty-boots it manages to keep itself healthy for the ability sturdy. recover is a solid option on a defensive set
and it is able to keep itself healthy, i think that avalugg makes up for a good defensive rapid-spinner and provides the necessary defensive role compression
for bulkier teams.

Avalugg-Set

Avalugg @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Recover
- Body Press / Avalanche
- Iron Defense
- Rapid Spin

is a very fast pokémon with a very good speed-tier hitting 375 with a jolly nature and has for an electric-type the necessary coverage-options to
break through usual checks and a life orb paired up with a good ability in strong jaw it can really do some solid damage on the opposition, i think we will see
2 common sets, life orb or choice band.

Boltund-Set

Boltund @ Life Orb / @ Choice Band
Ability: Strong Jaw
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thunder Fang
- Fire Fang
- Psychic Fangs
- Play Rough / Crunch

however can be a solid option as a defensive defogger with 3 attacks or it can just help breaking teams with its strong stab-options, however
i think indeedee-f will hold its usage back a bit as in the psychic terrain it summons gurdurr has trouble revenge killing pokémon with mach punch which it really
needs as it is very slow. there are other good checks for it like sandaconda and garbodor and gourgeist. gurdurr can also act as an offensive threat with
4 attacks or bulk up and 3 attacks.

Gurdurr-Set

Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up / Defog / Ice Punch / Poison Jab (coverage against the many fairy pokémon in the tier)
- Mach Punch

can act like an offensive rapid-spinner with either a life orb or a choice band set and is able to check indeedee and a lot of ghost-type pokémon
like rotom and silvally-ghost, which i will talk about later. it also has coverage for sandaconda, even tho seed bomb wont do too much against it, but it can at least
hit sandaconda for a super-effective damage. it can also provide itself as a threat to cofagrigus with a strong aura wheel / crunch.

Morpeko-Set

Morpeko @ Choice Band / @ Life Orb
Ability: Hunger Switch
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aura Wheel
- Brick Break
- Seed Bomb / Crunch
- Fire Fang

will be a nice addition to this tier as an offensive or defensive defogger or just as a late game sweeper due to nasty plot, rotom also offers a nice
speed-tier for the nu-tier and is able to dish out some good damage with thunderbolt and shadow ball, while being able to maintain momentum due to volt switch as well.
discharge is also an option as paras are good and could find itself on a more offensive set. maybe a wow / toxic set with hex is a fun set to consider for rotom as well.

Rotom-Sets

Rotom @ Colbur Berry / @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic

Rotom @ Colbur Berry / @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge / Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball
- Will-O-Wisp / Defog
- Pain Split

(ghost & steel) both will be good additions to the nu-tier as silvally-ghost / steel can both act offensively but also defensively for the team with either
a swords dance-set or a defog-set with parting shot or u-turn. silvally-ghost offers a good check to pokémon such a toxicroak and sawk which are dangerous
wallbreakers in the nu-tier and silvally-ghost is also capable of checking cofagrigus with a more offensive oriented set and can hit toxicroak and garbodor with a strong
psychic fang, its one issue is that morpeko dropped down with it, so morpeko will be troublesome for ghostvally but it can hit morpeko with a strong x-scissor. silvally-steel on the other hand (we all know steel is a good defensive typing)
can act like a good support pokémon with multi-attack, parting-shot, u-turn and defog, if you want to hit other steel-types for super effective damage
flamethrower might be the best option on that slot, so it is able to hit pokémon like klinklang and perserrker.

Ghostvally-Sets

Silvally-Ghost @ Ghost Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- U-turn / Flame Charge / X-Scissor
- Psychic Fangs
- Swords Dance

Silvally-Ghost @ Ghost Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Defog
- U-turn
- Toxic

defensive Steelvally-Set

Silvally-Steel @ Steel Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Multi-Attack
- Defog
- U-turn
- Parting Shot / Flamethrower

 

[Steel With It]

Despite having decent bulk, its low speed means that it is outsped and 2HKOd by many neutral attacks.

I think this'd be a good time to post a tech I've been playing around with:

Drampa @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 140 HP / 252 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Glare

Ohh yes. Dragon/Normal/Fire is obscene coverage on its own; Drampa doesn't need more coverage, it needs a way to slow down its mid-Speed checks in the early game so it can safely click buttons in the late game. This set plays similarly to Choice Band users who run Toxic to cripple physical walls (think Gen 7 Zygarde) and it is so. Much. Fun. Even Clefairy doesn't like eating a Glare, leaving Null as the only the thing that can still take it on - unless full para stops it from Resting, anyway.

Glare is so fucking broken. =P

EDIT: Whoops, I missed that. Ah well, file it away for next time. =B

 

[Expulso]

I think this'd be a good time to post a tech I've been playing around with:

Drampa @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 140 HP / 252 SpA / 116 Spe
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Glare

Ohh yes. Dragon/Normal/Fire is obscene coverage on its own; Drampa doesn't need more coverage, it needs a way to slow down its mid-Speed checks in the early game so it can safely click buttons in the late game. This set plays similarly to Choice Band users who run Toxic to cripple physical walls (think Gen 7 Zygarde) and it is so. Much. Fun. Even Clefairy doesn't like eating a Glare, leaving Null as the only the thing that can still take it on - unless full para stops it from Resting, anyway.

Glare is so fucking broken. =P

i have some bad news for you mate

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

This threads been pretty lifeless so far which is a bummer cause a lot of the new drops are pretty neat, so thought i'd share my two cents.

Avalugg is pretty damn solid. I didn't think itd be as good as cof as an abuser of the broken ass def boost + body press combo but its titanic physical bulk and access to recover allow it to be played more freely in the early and mid game. I've used ID cof quite a bit and found it to be a massive threat late game (in 2 of my NULT playoff games, ID cof got 4 kills, both resulting in wins) but its lack of reliable recovery means most of the time if u want to sweep with it u cant rly take advantage of its defensive utility until ur ready to clean. Avalugg, on the other hand, can do some absolutely nutty shit with its bulk- at max def, rapidash can't 2hko with flare blitz (and by extension, every physical silvally that hits it supereffectively with multi attack) and recover right back up, making it dependable even in early game.

I've been running quite a bit of sp def on mine, and ive found it to be useful, as it can help it avoid a number of 2hkos from certain special attacks, including non boosted hits from rotom (and even specs unboosted hex), mystical fire from scarf indeedee, and blizzard/ice beam from specs abomasnow/glaceon respectively. Running 24 def evs and impish nature means rapidash is only 2hkoing 7% of the time w blitz, and putting the rest into sp def gives you the above benefits. Obviously bringing lugg into any special attacker is a bad idea but being able to chew these hits better gives it more flexibility in every phase of the game. As for the last move, ice stab or toxic is best imo. i wouldn't run spin since u literally cant touch ghosts with that, and dropping iron defense makes u pretty passive. There are some issues with lugg- cof is a hard counter, even with toxic, and u have to be careful about tox and wisp much moreso than say dubwool or cof, both of which are able to run sub or rest. Ice typing is also a liability since there are basically no resistances for it to take advantage of. that said ive found its absolutely a threat.

Rotoms also pretty good, and it has a ton of versatility. Imo what makes it better than its other forms is it has the ability to be both defog utility and offensive, unlike fan and frost (imo fan is a good defogger but not np user, where i'd say the reverse is true for frost). choiced rotoms (both specs and scarf) are good as well. all of its offensive sets do a fantastic job at wearing down bulky grounds, which a lot of offensive threats appreciate (particularly some of the silvally forms). Despite its poor bulk it gets a ton of switchins via resistances to start spreading status and getting off some boosted hexes. For its item, i think sitrus or spell tag is the way to go on non-choiced. Ive found the additional power from spell tag on offensive hex is nice to have, and sitrus is useful as well for sustainability (and allowing you to potentially bluff scarf, if that becomes the primary set fsr). colbur isnt great cause knock off fighting types are limited to sawk (which carries mold breaker eq), scarf croak, and gurdurr, which rotom needs pain split for if it doesnt want to just force a trade regardless of its item. Only thing that lets it down is its speed tier, which falls short of 95 and is never ideal for a frail offensive mon in multi attack: the tier.

As for the new silvallys, i havent used ghost yet, but ive fucked around w sd steelvally a decent amount. good natural bulk + steel typing means its getting a ton of switchin opportunities. set im using is sd/multi/flame charge/grass pledge. Pledge is nice for beating quag, but last slot can also be uturn or explosion, depending on whether or not you need silvally for its defensive utility and want to chip bulky waters more or if youre trying to remove conda and bulky waters for teammates. special sets also seem decent- shoutouts quziel for bopping me on the ladder w work up steel beam. Defog is also probably viable but just seems like a waste of its offensive potential to me. with that said i enjoy using teams without any hazard control so feel free to take my biased take with a grain of salt.

morpeko is cute, aura wheel is busted and its speed tier is pretty good here, outpacing the silvallys and scarf toge with a speed boost from aura wheel. parting shot is also a nice tool for offensive teams to keep up momentum. the last two slots are kinda iffy. theres seed bomb so you can at least do something to grounds on the switch if ur in full belly mode, protect to kinda help navigate ur aura wheel type for potential late game sweeps, rapid spin if u rly need extra help with hazard removal. hard to say how good it will be here but i think itll find a niche.

i havent played around with the others yet, but boltund seems like it suffers from similar problems that jolteon has, which in this case getting walled by 2 of our most common rockers and having trouble with generic physical walls. lacking ice fang is pretty big cause it would be able to get really good chip on conda if it had it. it does 2hko sp def fisk-g and eldegoss with fire fang so thats something ig. it also get bulk up, so perhaps it finds a niche as a late game cleaner and counterpick to folks who overrely on fisk as their rocker.

as for gurdurr, defog seems kinda bad cause u dont pose any offensive threat without bulk up. in general, it seems like the meta just doesnt favor it. quag is common enough and good, and all of the fighting checks that are thrown in the way to eat sawk and croaks hits mostly just hardwall it. gurdurrs always been at its best in a more offensive metagame where it can do a ton of damage to fighting checks with knock and healtank its way through teams lategame with boosted drain punch. rn the meta is filled with a ton of bulky offense and fat balance squads that are able to eat whatever it wants to throw. some of our special attackers dont do it any favors, with rotom (ghost and fan) easily able to revenge a chipped gurdurr and indeedee just ignoring however many boosts it has thanks to psychic terrain blocking mach punch. however, it does check a lot of the silvallys well, and sets up easily on bulky grounds, so not all is bad for it. itll be interesting to see where it ends up.

ive seen some raboot and grookey hype too, i'd be interested to see the thoughts of users who have played around with them.

excited for dlc to make all of this irrelevant in 2 weeks

 

[Expulso]

Some thoughts on the immediate additions to this tier:

Chansey is insane LOL ban this
Porygon2 is a ridiculously bulky mon that will not be broken by anything besides a Fighting-type and provides tons of utility; i'm not going to talk about it more since I think it is too much for the tier and hopefully it'll be gone.

Scyther will be a very, very good NU mon from the jump. 105 base Speed is excellent, and Heavy-Duty Boots will let it pivot all game with U-turn. The new Dual Wingbeat + Technician gives it a 120-BP flying STAB with 90% accuracy, giving it the power to tear through bulky staples like Sandaconda and offensive flying resists such as the Rotom formes. Bulky Sub-SD sets with Eviolite are also an option to get up a Substitute against many of its typical switch-ins, such as Stunfisk-Galar without a rock move (which is common), Cofagrigus, Ferroseed (though Gyro Ball has a small chance to break your Sub), and mono-attacking Sandaconda, set up, and then attack. However, the pivot set with Boots should be far more common, and Dual Wingbeat --> U-turn will be super effective at wearing down its checks for it to break through them later. I'm extremely excited to use this.

Physical Ghost-types were blessed with Poltergeist, a 110-BP Physical Ghost-type attack that works with no drawbacks if used on a target that has an item. This gives LO Gourgeist, CB Golurk, and CB Trevenant an extremely potent weapon to tear teams apart due to the lackof Ghost-resists in the tier. (the latter two could even use a Scarf now, since their >100-BP STABs give them enough power without a Choice Band). It'll be interesting to see if teams will adapt to this threat by running more itemless Pokemon or Pokemon with consumable items (e.g. Air Balloon, resist berries). Also, dusknoir might finally be viable ....? (i dont think in nu but worth a mention i guess)


Indeedee-F now has access to Terrain Pulse (100 BP in Psychic Terrain) and Expanding Force (120 BP (or maybe 160 BP?) in Psychic Terrain), giving it a nice power boost. Specs becomes an even more powerful wallbreaker, and Scarf becomes less weak, although Indeedee is inadvertently hurt by the rise of Dark-types in the tier to stop the new Ghost-types.
*EDIT: Currently on PS Expanding Force DOUBLES BP if used in Psychic Terrain, making it a 160 BP attack with no drawbacks, making Indeedee broken af LOL. I am not sure if this implementation is correct, though, it may be 1.5x or 2x.
*EDIT 2: as of 1am 6/18 gmt-4 indeedee-f does not have expanding force on PS!. however, a datamine confirmed that this is a bug and it should be able to use this move.

Magneton is a much less effective trapper without Hidden Power, but Specs Analytic hits extremely hard and Scarf would makes pretty good use of its typing to revenge weakened foes, pivot, etc. I think Specs would be the most appealing; Magneton would become one of NU's strongest special breakers.

=================== underwheming changes below this line ===============

Thwackey gets Grassy Glide, a 70 BP physical Grass-type priority attack; mono-Grass attacking isn't great with Ferroseed, Garbodor, Eldegoss, Rotom-Fan, et. al. being common Pokemon, but this adds another element to its very minor niche.

Tangela seems underwhelming; it has good physical bulk, although it faces competition from Eldegoss which also has Regenerator and good physical bulk but provides more utility with Rapid Spin. It also lets in lots of powerful breakers for free, so I dont think this will be a very impactful addition.

among currently NU Pokemon, Flip Turn can only be used by Wishiwashi, Basculin, Wartortle, and a handful of mons somehow less viable than Wartortle lol. Wishiwashi already has U-turn, which might be more useful to chip its Grass-type switchins, so this much-hyped move will likely have basically no effect on the tier right now.

 

[Finchinator]

HoeenHero The Immortal

Chansey is quickbanned from SS NU.

 

[Cuddly]

Are we allowed to talk about the DLC changes?
NU has to wait for the new Pokemon to drop, but there are still changes to movepools, and I’m surprised no one is discussing anything.

Poltergeist has probably the biggest impact on the Meta as it’s finally a reliable STAB for physical Ghost types.
This has the biggest impact on and
With Choice Band, the only safe switch-in to Golurk now is Avalugg, which can be Haxed thanks to confusion and Stone Edge Critical Hits. Not even Dubwool can tank 2 Earthquakes if you don’t run HP investment.
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Dubwool: 205-243 (71.9 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (205, 208, 210, 213, 216, 217, 220, 223, 225, 228, 229, 232, 235, 237, 240, 243)
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. +3 0 HP / 252 Def Dubwool: 84-99 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 7.6% chance to 3HKO
Possible damage amounts: (84, 84, 85, 87, 87, 88, 90, 90, 91, 93, 93, 94, 96, 96, 97, 99)

Flip Turn didn’t get as much distribution to NU Pokemon, only which can use it over U-turn. But and now have a new momentum tool that compliments their types.

Some other Pokemon who may see more use being with Rising Voltage being a 182 BP move after Electric Terrain boost and Secondary Effect, the returning Pokemon with Dual Wingbeat being essentially Brave Bird with lower accuracy for no Recoil and the ability to break Sash/Sub, and maybe with Scorching Sand.

Hey /vp/ :^)

 

[Realistic Waters]

Gonna post some fun mons / sets in this crazy meta before things settle down.

Thievul @ Choice Specs
Ability: Stakeout
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Burning Jealousy
- U-turn

New ability and coverage! If you can force a switch, you'll do double to power making you a good wallbreaker with decent speed to back up.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 244-288 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 154-182 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 196+ SpD Togedemaru: 306-360 (91.6 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 40 HP / 200+ SpD Lanturn: 297-349 (74 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Silvally-Dark: 170-201 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Stakeout Thievul Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stunfisk-Galar: 264-312 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Magneton @ Eviolite
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Teleport

Didn't like specs that much so I was working with bulky pivot set. Now you can pivot out of your counters and tank hits simultaneously.

Slowpoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Slack Off
- Teleport

lmao a meme mon but it has decent all-round bulk and it's guaranteed to switch into broken Indeedee-F. Teleport works perfectly with Slowpoke and regenerator / recover / toxic means you'll always annoy your opponents.

Scyther @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Dual Wingbeat
- Knock Off
- Quick Attack

Maybe I like this more than HDB with the offensive pressure. Also there are limited switch-ins when you're not just gaining momentum lol. Mandatory hazard control sucks but it pairs nicely with a bunch of support options like Eldegoss, Silvally, Avalugg, Gurdurr and Skunk.

Rapidash @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- High Horsepower

Once Porygon2 is gone, i'll probably go back to Flash Fire but ya know it's always nice to cheesy burns on random u-turn and rapid spins mons.

 

[Finchinator]

hey everyone, I hope you're enjoying the post-DLC metagame. I first want to say welcome to Garay oak -- he is now a member of the SS NU council!

Anyway, we had a vote on the Pokemon we deemed controversial in the metagame today. After a round of council nominations, we determined that voting on the following Pokemon this weekend would occur: Basculin, Gourgeist-Small, Indeedee-F, Magneton, Porygon2, and Scyther.

We all voted over the last 24 hours. The results of this voting are that Indeedee-F and Porygon2 are banned from SS NU. They will not be allowed in the first round of the NU Open! They both received 7 of 8 possible votes. Basculin, Gourgeist-Small, and Scyther also received votes, but none reached the necessary threshold to have a majority ban votes.

 

[Katy]

Wishiwashi @ Leftovers
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Atk / 188 Def / 48 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Flip Turn

with the access to flip turn wishiwashi profits now from a better momentum attack because flip turn is stab and it has a solid power too with base 60, i think flip turn can fit as well on wishiwashis set since it still damages some targets while switching out afterwards. the disadavantge flip turn has it isnt super effective on grass-type pokémon which try and switch in on washiwashi as u-turns damage output is higher there. but i can see flip turn being on defensive sets or maybe more offensive oriented sets.


Flareon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Burning Jealousy

flareon is an amazing special wall and can support its teammates with wish and protect and can help with toxic to cripple and whittle them down, burning jealousy even goes 1 step forward. it can help against setup-sweepers here as it can punish them with a burn, which helps not only flareon but also its teammates in the process of the game.burning jealousy is very solid against physical sweepers in the tier which dont appreciate the burn.


Hitmontop @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Triple Axel
- Rapid Spin

triple axel helps hitmontop against physical tanks like sandaconda and can help vs flying types like drifblim which otherwise wall this set entirely. triple axel also can help vs the likes of unfezant and can damage rotom-fan. i think triple axel sees the most appeal due to it hitting drifblim for super effective damage thus it isnt able to wall hitmontop entirely and has to fear damage. maybe this set can shift towards a more offensive one making hitmontop even more threatening with an adamant nature and 252 invested in its attack-stat.​

 

[earl]

Wishiwashi @ Leftovers
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Atk / 188 Def / 48 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Flip Turn

with the access to flip turn wishiwashi profits now from a better momentum attack because flip turn is stab and it has a solid power too with base 60, i think flip turn can fit as well on wishiwashis set since it still damages some targets while switching out afterwards. the disadavantge flip turn has it isnt super effective on grass-type pokémon which try and switch in on washiwashi as u-turns damage output is higher there. but i can see flip turn being on defensive sets or maybe more offensive oriented sets.


Flareon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Burning Jealousy

flareon is an amazing special wall and can support its teammates with wish and protect and can help with toxic to cripple and whittle them down, burning jealousy even goes 1 step forward. it can help against setup-sweepers here as it can punish them with a burn, which helps not only flareon but also its teammates in the process of the game.burning jealousy is very solid against physical sweepers in the tier which dont appreciate the burn.


Hitmontop @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Triple Axel
- Rapid Spin

triple axel helps hitmontop against physical tanks like sandaconda and can help vs flying types like drifblim which otherwise wall this set entirely. triple axel also can help vs the likes of unfezant and can damage rotom-fan. i think triple axel sees the most appeal due to it hitting drifblim for super effective damage thus it isnt able to wall hitmontop entirely and has to fear damage. maybe this set can shift towards a more offensive one making hitmontop even more threatening with an adamant nature and 252 invested in its attack-stat.​

If you’re gonna be running Triple Axel Hitmontop, I’d go with Technician over Intimidate. It makes Triple Axel 180 BP, giving you Ice STAB without any of the defensive downsides. Earthquake can also be swapped out with Bulldoze for slightly less power but speed drops or a priority move.

 

[Corthius]

Wishiwashi @ Leftovers
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Atk / 188 Def / 48 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Flip Turn

I know u mentioned it but from my experience and imo Flip Turn doesn't have any advantage over U-turn even on defensive sets. I know it is STAB and all but being able to pivot + doing good damage to grass types like Eldegoss (that are the best overall switchins for Wishiwashi) is a key point to its success as a defensive pivot. U-turn is also nice to better check some other physical attackers like Malamar and Silvally-Dark since you hit these super effective as well. I guess you are doing more against Rotom(-Fan) but is it really worth it?



In addion I want to share a pokemon Im really enjoying atm:

(everyone who uses the blue striped one can go to hell)
Basculin @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Flip Turn
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Psychic Fangs

Basculin was a niche pick befor it got Flip Turn and the imo best set for it is specially offensive. You can bypass more opposing walls (e.g. Cofagrigus or you can 3HKO physdef Wishiwashi after Stealth Rock). It has an amazing ability and a really good speed stat that lets it outrun Silvallys which is like one of the best things to have in NU rn. It also has great coverage in Psychic Fangs to nail annoying Toxicroak. Basculin fits very nicely on Spikes-HO and is kinda the fast offensive Wishiwashi of NU.

 

[Cuddly]

Wishiwashi @ Leftovers
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Atk / 188 Def / 48 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Protect
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Flip Turn

with the access to flip turn wishiwashi profits now from a better momentum attack because flip turn is stab and it has a solid power too with base 60, i think flip turn can fit as well on wishiwashis set since it still damages some targets while switching out afterwards. the disadavantge flip turn has it isnt super effective on grass-type pokémon which try and switch in on washiwashi as u-turns damage output is higher there. but i can see flip turn being on defensive sets or maybe more offensive oriented sets.


Flareon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Burning Jealousy

flareon is an amazing special wall and can support its teammates with wish and protect and can help with toxic to cripple and whittle them down, burning jealousy even goes 1 step forward. it can help against setup-sweepers here as it can punish them with a burn, which helps not only flareon but also its teammates in the process of the game.burning jealousy is very solid against physical sweepers in the tier which dont appreciate the burn.


Hitmontop @ Leftovers
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Triple Axel
- Rapid Spin

triple axel helps hitmontop against physical tanks like sandaconda and can help vs flying types like drifblim which otherwise wall this set entirely. triple axel also can help vs the likes of unfezant and can damage rotom-fan. i think triple axel sees the most appeal due to it hitting drifblim for super effective damage thus it isnt able to wall hitmontop entirely and has to fear damage. maybe this set can shift towards a more offensive one making hitmontop even more threatening with an adamant nature and 252 invested in its attack-stat.​

Like Leonard said, but I would also recommend Wide Lens as an alternative item.
This makes a huge difference in accuracy as a full power Triple Axel goes from ~72% accuracy to ~97% accuracy since it increases each hit’s accuracy.