np: NU Stage 1 - Welcome to Heartbreak

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Rivalry only raises Attack, so I'm not sure how that will help it at all. Butterfree also has the best Speed out of any of the Quiver Dancers, so that also gives it an edge.
Didn't it change this gen to boosting the base power of the move instead of Attack? If anything it works like an inconsistent Sheer Force.
 

marilli

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Is it just me or are Tspikes actually useful now?

So basically the two good steels are gone (Klinklang + Magneton) Roselia + Scolipede are gone too, so there are very few common Poison types around.

Pros of using Tspikes: Tspikes hit top offensive threats in Gorebyss, Magmortar, Absol, Samurott, so basically everything other than the birds. In general, NU is also a very Spikes-prone metagame, but we just don't realize that because the top spiker is Cacturne. As an offensive team, your grounded Poison-types are limited to... Skuntank? So yeah, it's a great tool for stallish teams with Lickilicky, Quagsire, Alomomola, Misdreavus, and few other select stall-capable mons.

Downsides of using Tspikes: Garbodor.
 
Is it just me or are Tspikes actually useful now?

So basically the two good steels are gone (Klinklang + Magneton) Roselia + Scolipede are gone too, so there are very few common Poison types around.

Pros of using Tspikes: Tspikes hit top offensive threats in Gorebyss, Magmortar, Absol, Samurott, so basically everything other than the birds. In general, NU is also a very Spikes-prone metagame, but we just don't realize that because the top spiker is Cacturne. As an offensive team, your grounded Poison-types are limited to... Skuntank? So yeah, it's a great tool for stallish teams with Lickilicky, Quagsire, Alomomola, Misdreavus, and few other select stall-capable mons.

Downsides of using Tspikes: Garbodor.
Somewhat debateable, Glalie's faster, bulker, and has Taunt and Disable.

Cacturne can set up a layer on a switch it forces, while Glalie might get a set up as a 'lead'

And yeah, T-Spikes are useful, shame the beat T-Spikers are Garbodor and... Beedrill.
 
Toxic Spikes are definitely more useful as of right now. The only downside like you said are the spikers themselves, namely Garbordor and I guess eviolite Whirlipede.

On another note, I have been testing out Kangaskhan lately and I am really wondering why no one is using her. She has pretty good defensive stats for NU (105-80-80) along with decent base 95 attacks and a good 90 speed. She also has a great movepool with access to wish, fake out, sucker punch and drain punch among others. Defensive sets with wish are mostly outclassed by Lickilicky but the offensives ones can surprise a lot of people. Here's the set I have been trying out:

PrioKan​

(Kangaskhan) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 252 Atk / 4 SDef /
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Fake Out
- Return
- Drain Punch/Earthquake
- Sucker Punch​

This set is used to finish off frail sweepers like Swellow and Gorebyss after a shell smash. Since Kangaskhan is already using two priority moves, I decided to put no EVs in speed and instead invest more in HP. That way, Kan can easily take every one or two non boosted hits while retaliating pretty hard. Scrappy is useful to hit those Misdreavus, Haunter and Frillish on the switch but early bird can also be used if you don't have a sleep absorber. She has her counters, namely Regirock, Misdreavus and Golem, like every other pokémon but she is still well worth a slot in your team.


Try it out. You will be surprised. I am sure she will get more popular in a near future.
 
I'm personally a bigger fan of Zangoose. I know he doesn't have Scrappy and he actually plays a lot differently, but his attack is really strong and with Swords Dance, Return, Night Slash and Superpower, he's very hard to switch into. Immunity is a surprisingly useful ability- as the above posts have noted, tspikes are VERY good, and poison is everywhere in this metagame.
 
I'm personally a bigger fan of Zangoose. I know he doesn't have Scrappy and he actually plays a lot differently, but his attack is really strong and with Swords Dance, Return, Night Slash and Superpower, he's very hard to switch into. Immunity is a surprisingly useful ability- as the above posts have noted, tspikes are VERY good, and poison is everywhere in this metagame.
Why use Superpower when you get Close Combat?
 

Honus

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I'm glad people are catching on to the fact that Toxic Spikes are extremely useful, probably moreso than Spikes. The majority of NU Pokemon hate them and aren't immune and those that are immune are usually SR Weak. Toxic Spikes are great for stalling out Pokemon like Magmortar and Gorebyss, although it's a shame that Mesprit and Duosion are immune.
 
CC was what I meant! Nah I love tspikes and all but they're so difficult to find a good setter for. I'd use them if I could justify fitting them somewhere on my team.
 
Skimming through the list of Toxic Spikes users, I was thinking maybe Evolite Nidorina with (Toxic Spikes / Rest / Sleep Talk / Poison Jab) and Hustle for her ability so her poison Jab gets some bite but at he cost of lower accuracy.

Nah maybe she's too frail.

At least her bulk is some what similar to Beedrill and Ariados but with the Stealth Rock weakness.

Garbodor and Whirlpede are definitely bulkier but no Sleep Talk. *shrugs*

EDIT: I forgot DW ability + Sleep talk = a NO NO... ah well there goes that set...
 
teehee, i called it. :)

Toxic Spikes are a beautiful thing in NU, so I've found that even though fitting a grounded poison-type is annoying, you really only need to switch it in once for it to serve its purpose (since all of the tspikers aren't bulky enough to come in and set the layers up again on an offensive team, and NU stall has a few core pokemon that they REALLY can't handle very well).

I've been experimenting with this set in particular, it really appreciates having opposing Poison-types to come in on and spread havoc.

edit: lololol without even realizing it, there's another NU pokemon that does the exact same set hundreds of times better. brb testing
 
How does Vanilluxe stack up in the NU metagame? He's got pretty good stats all around, 79 base Speed isn't too bad. Its main issue is its type coverage, though.

I'm thinking maybe

Vanilluxe@Life Orb
Modest
252Sp. Atk, 252Spd, 4HP
~Ice Beam
~HP Electric/Grass/Ground
~Automotize
~Taunt/Flash Cannon/Substitute

Fairly straightforward. HP choice is pretty imporant- Electric hits Waters but leaves you walled by Quagsire. Grass nails Quaggy and Rock types but leaves you walled by Magmortar. Ground hits Magmortar but again, Quaggy. Flash Cannon can be used instead to hit Jynx.
 

breh

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vanilluxe is a worse glaceon and a worse jynx rolled into one. weaker than the first and unable to break through anything the second can. you may also note that its movepool is absolutely awful.
 
I know I've mentioned this before, and I know it still kinda sucks, but eviolite Tentacool is an interesting choice in a metagame where T-Spikes is becoming more popular. Tenta can lay T-Spikes, absorb them, and use Rapid Spin to get rid of any other hazards currently in play, as well as having a few neat moves like Knock Off to screw things like eviolite Misdreavus up. I dunno, worth a try?
 
On another note, I have been testing out Kangaskhan lately and I am really wondering why no one is using her. She has pretty good defensive stats for NU (105-80-80) along with decent base 95 attacks and a good 90 speed. She also has a great movepool with access to wish, fake out, sucker punch and drain punch among others..
Personally, the best Kanga set is SubPunch. 101 Subs, bulk, STAB Return/Frustaration, Sucker Punch and Focus Punch, with Scrappy too so Ghosts can't come in on FP?

Although, 101 Subs admittedly aren't that big an issue in NU, especially as Kanga is immune to Night Shade.

As a result, I'd suggest giving this a try:

Kangaskahn @ Leftovers
Adamant Nature
Ability: Scrappy
252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def

- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Frustration

It may lack STAB, but Focus Punch running from 317 Atk is going to hurt anything that dosen't resist it, and Frustration is going to hurt even more [Base 153 effectivly over Base 150]

Sucker Punch is always useful priority, and happens to take out those pesky Psychic types, the only type who can switch in on Focus Punch [Due to Scrappy]

Kanga behind a sub is outright fearsome, and hits the tier for neutral.

You could also run a varient with more bulk, so you can sub after they move, taking a hit, but that leaves you vunerable to status before you sub. Base 90 is brilliant so you can go either way.

I'm gonna give it some test runs, to see if it's as effective IRL as in theory.

EDIT: It's seeming very effective.
 
@Raikaria I will definitely give your set a try. However, like I previously stated, my set is used to finish off sweepers with the combination of fake out and sucker punch. The sub-punching has a completely different purpose.
 
True, Fake Out + Sucker Punch is a very useful combination to have.

Although, Liepard technically has a stronger FO + SP, due to getting STAB on Sucker Punch, despite it's slightly lower Atk.

That said, Liepard sucks in general. Kanga can do something with his other two moveslots.

The only time SubDoublepunch Kanga has let me down was against a 'Byss who outpredicted me [I was on low HP, too low for a Sub. It smashed as I Sucker Punched, then Smashed as I Sucker Punched again, which was very risky, and then attacked as I Frustrationed, leading to a sweep.]
 
How does Meganium fare in this tier? I figure it can work well as a support Pokemon. It's slower than Serperior, but it's bulkier and it also gets screens. It has Aromatherapy for status (particularly to counter TSpikes) and reliable recovery in Synthesis. I figure with guys like Magmortar and Swellow running around, it won't be a top NU or anything, but it does have it's uses and is, I think, comparable to Serperior overall.
 
I've only seen one Serperior since I joined NU. That should give a good idea of how much of a burden utility mons like those two are. Serperior and Meganium fear just that, Fire-types and Flying-types. If one comes in on you it's a pretty unanimous decision that you'll switch out in fear of Fire Blast and Brave Bird, respectively. The Flyers also have that scouting advantage called U-turn to really check what exactly you're using to check/counter them. Even if you feel the need to keep either of them in they'll still have problems taking a U-turn, even from unboosted Swellow (who outspeeds the entire tier bar electrode, yes that means it checks both Serp and Meganium).
 
Well in my opinion it's okay to have a grass type, as long as you're packing a good check to Swellow, magmortar, etc. Just like any other Pokemon, really. The problem is that, with correct prediction, Magmortar can wear out anything save Camerupt or something. If you feel adequately prepared against these threats, I don't think meganium would be terrible- it has a good support movepool, like dual screens, aromatherapy and synthesis for its own benefit (not to all be used in conjunction). I also wonder if a Swords Dance set would be viable? Meganium isn't the best Gorebyss check in the world, but with Swords Dance / Seed Bomb / Earthquake / Synthesis it's a pretty mighty offensive threat that can take a hit. Most physical walls, like Regirock, Probopass, Golem, can't stop him at all. Obviously, you're going to be stopped by anything faster but he's a good decent bulky grass type that can give balanced/stall teams some trouble.
 
Well in my opinion it's okay to have a grass type, as long as you're packing a good check to Swellow, magmortar, etc. Just like any other Pokemon, really. The problem is that, with correct prediction, Magmortar can wear out anything save Camerupt or something. If you feel adequately prepared against these threats, I don't think meganium would be terrible- it has a good support movepool, like dual screens, aromatherapy and synthesis for its own benefit (not to all be used in conjunction). I also wonder if a Swords Dance set would be viable? Meganium isn't the best Gorebyss check in the world, but with Swords Dance / Seed Bomb / Earthquake / Synthesis it's a pretty mighty offensive threat that can take a hit. Most physical walls, like Regirock, Probopass, Golem, can't stop him at all. Obviously, you're going to be stopped by anything faster but he's a good decent bulky grass type that can give balanced/stall teams some trouble.
To be fair, setting up Light Screen as Magmortar switches in makes switching into it a lot less painful.

If you see a Flying-type, set up a Reflect instead, as they are almost certain to come in.

And I see a Grass-type on most teams. Usually Tangela, Leafeon or Eggy, but occasionally something like Serperior.

Also, SD Meganium was OK in 4th Gen NU, but that was mainly due to Salac Berry, which does not yet exist in Gen 5. A bulky Swords Dancer like the one you suggested gets walked all over by Swellow + Co, and Magmortar.

But Meganium is better than Serperior in a supporting role. She gets the Powders, more support moves, and a better offensive movepool, as well as more bulk.

Serperior is outclassed as anything except maybe a fast Subseeder, Taunter, or Coil/CM sets. [Coil sets are probobly worse than SD Meg]
 
Eh, Meganium doesn't "outclass" serperior at anything since they're pretty different mons. It would be like comparing Espeon and Uxie in OU as screeners. Serperior doesn't have the bulk to withstand too many hits, but he's fast and can get them up, use a fast taunt, and probably get out of there. He's also a better subseeder thanks to his speed and poorer HP. Meganium, on the other hand, won't outspeed wet toast but has the bulk to withstand some pretty dangerous hits while supporting his team. He's meant to stick around longer, thanks to reliable recovery, but at the cost of being total set up fodder for anything that wants to have its way with it. In short, the two aren't comparable- I think Serperior is better on offensive teams, and Meganium on defensive teams (and cuter teams <3).
 
Well in my opinion it's okay to have a grass type, as long as you're packing a good check to Swellow, magmortar, etc. Just like any other Pokemon, really. The problem is that, with correct prediction, Magmortar can wear out anything save Camerupt or something. If you feel adequately prepared against these threats, I don't think meganium would be terrible- it has a good support movepool, like dual screens, aromatherapy and synthesis for its own benefit (not to all be used in conjunction). I also wonder if a Swords Dance set would be viable? Meganium isn't the best Gorebyss check in the world, but with Swords Dance / Seed Bomb / Earthquake / Synthesis it's a pretty mighty offensive threat that can take a hit. Most physical walls, like Regirock, Probopass, Golem, can't stop him at all. Obviously, you're going to be stopped by anything faster but he's a good decent bulky grass type that can give balanced/stall teams some trouble.
Grass/Ground gets walked all over by Flying and Grass types, though. Return is an arguably better choice over Earthquake, unless you're willing to give up Synthesis.

However, if you're not running or planning to run Earthquake, Serperior would make an arguably better choice because of its speed and access to Pursuit/Taunt/Coil.
 
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