Metagame NP: NU Stage 10 - Let It Snow! [Slush Rush Banned -- see post #21]

Meri Berry

is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
NU Leader

We’ve recently had a council vote on Snow Warning, Slush Rush/Arctovish, Aurora Veil, and Indeedee-M. The results are below:



Firstly, for full transparency, Aurora Veil was a tied vote in the council. In the case of a tied vote, we have decided that we will keep the status quo over revoting to try and break the tie (i.e. 50% + 1 rules). This may be a controversial decision, and the council will keep an eye on this moving forwards.

Snow Warning has been a frequent topic of discussion since its ban, and due to the Light Clay ban and Arctozolt bans that have taken place in tiers above us, a majority of council has decided that Snow Warning no longer constitutes a ban over a specific piece of Hail. The piece of hail that was majority voted on was Arctovish, which is unsurprising given its dominance over most metagame staples bar Vaporeon due to its high speed tier in Hail, outpacing even Scarf Rotom-Mow, and its 170 Base Power STAB move in Fishious Rend. We decided to ban Arctovish over Slush Rush, as many of us believe Slush Rush is in a good place with its best abuser being Sandslash-Alola, allowing for a niche offensive archetype and nothing more. The reason Aurora Veil was considered on this slate was because of the banning of Light Clay since it was last in the tier. Due to the obscurity of dual screens in the meta right now, we hope that Aurora Veil isn’t too overbearing for the meta, and may revisit it in the future.

The council also voted on whether to have a suspect on Indeedee-Male after the recent community survey, which got near unanimous support from the members. We know that there hasn’t been any suspect tests recently, and we hope to have discussions about future potential retests after this one.

:ss/indeedee:
1637556662108.png


Indeedee-Male was too overbearing when it was banned, sporting an effective 156 Base Power STAB move with Expanding Force while in Psychic Terrain. This, along with the extra edge in speed tier and power that it gains over its Female counterpart, was too much in a tier that already heavily overloaded Steel-types. However, now that the meta has stabilized since then, and Indeedee-F isn’t nearly as good as some may have expected, it's time to take another look at Indeedee-M.


Indeedee-M has a very dangerous speed tier compared to its Female counterpart, allowing it to outspeed important targets such as Rotom-Mow and speed tying Pokemon such as Silvally-Ground and Drapion. This speed tier also allows it to run Modest on Choice Scarf sets in order to outspeed Passimian, instead of having to run Timid like its Female counterpart, which gives it a lot more power. Another factor is the extra 10 Special Attack, which doesn't seem like much, but it gives Indeedee much better rolls versus neutral targets such as Vaporeon and Sylveon, allowing it to 2HKO them much more reliably. It also is immune to priority due to the effects of Psychic Terrain, which makes it much harder to revenge kill notably Choice Scarfed sets with Pokemon such as Sirfetch'd and Toxicroak.

One final thing that is brought up is the fact that the tier is already filled with hard to account for breakers, and adding another one just makes building harder. While this isn't a very sound argument on its own, Indeedee-F already fulfills the niche of Indeedee-M in the metagame with a bit less power which makes it much more manageable. Indeedee-M doesn't add more options to the meta, it just improves one of the breakers and the playstyles that emerge from it substantially.

However, there are many reasons to believe Indeedee will be manageable in this metagame. The most obvious one, of course, is the fact that Indeedee-F doesn't have a strong spot in the meta currently, which shows that the power difference that Indeedee-M brings is likely not to have a huge effect. The counterplay for Indeedee-M is also already incredibly common, with Steel-types also being the best checks to Pokemon like Exploud and Dragalge, as well as Dark-types such as Guzzlord and Drapion to a lesser extent being common as well. Although it has coverage for these Pokemon, it is significantly weaker when not clicking Expanding Force, and not using a Choice item makes it far less potent. Speaking of Choiced sets, Indeedee can often only run Choice Scarf or Choice Specs, with Terrain Extender coming up on Psychic Terrain teams only, making its counterplay very easy to understand and fit on a team relative to more diverse breakers.

  • Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice. **It is now 79 GXE**​
GXE​
minimum games​
79​
50​
79.2​
49​
79.4​
48​
79.6​
47​
79.8​
46​
80​
45​
80.2​
44​
80.4​
43​
80.6​
42​
80.8​
41​
81​
40​
81.2​
39​
81.4​
38​
81.6​
37​
81.8​
36​
82​
35​
82.2​
34​
82.4​
33​
82.6​
32​
82.8​
31​
83​
30​

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NUND. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NUND Meri Berry
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.​
  • We will be using the regular NU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.​
  • The aspects being tested, Indeedee-Male, will be allowed on the ladder.​
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.​
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.​
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until December 5th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.​
 
I have voted to keep everything in NUBL in the latest survey, and I will do my best to explain why for Indeedee.

Indeedee has overwhelming power and needs no introduction. Psychic-type is actually a strong offensive typing; only Psychic and Steel types resist it, while Dark types are immune to it. Whenever I face against Indeedee-F, I will always assume Specs and make my plan accordingly (and the same applies for the male counterpart). Unless you are running hyper offense, already you are kind of forced to run certain Pokemon that can tank a hit from Indeedee. I only consider Bronzong to be a legitimate Steel, because the rest of the Steels (eg: AV Copperajah) get 3HKO at least by Specs Expanding Force. Obviously, you will need a Dark-type as well, but only Guzzlord and Drapion are able to provide decent defensive synergy, while others like Zoroark and Scrafty are much harder to fit into the team. I know that running a core of Bronzong + Dark-type is common, but I am not so sure if being forced to run this core all the time just to not lose to Indeedee is healthy in my eyes. The speed jump is also definitely much appreciated.

And I am only talking about the Specs set. Scarf is also fantastic against hyper offense, while Life Orb/Expert Belt could work just as well while giving the user the freedom to switch up moves.

What separates Indeedee from the other fast and powerful Psychics, is that Starmie and Indeedee-F have lower power levels that keep them reasonable, while Espeon lacks Fire coverage (important against Steels) and Psychic Surge that provides protection against priority moves like Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch. Heck, I am already nervous playing against Indeedee-F, even though it is low on the VR and has lower speed. You could argue that being Choice-locked means that it is easier to play around against Indeedee, but prediction goes both ways: what if you predict wrongly and unwittingly sack your Guzzlord to Dazzling Gleam?

Now, I get it that this post may be too premature, considering that the ladder is not even updated yet at the time of writing this post. However, I feel the need to articulate my initial thoughts to kickstart the discussion as I unfortunately may not have enough time to get reqs this time. If I do get reqs, I will vote to keep Indeedee NUBL, though of course my opinion can be changed once I get more games in.
 
The Indeedee-M conversation is interesting. Of course, Expanding Force is nearly impossible to properly switch into. The mons that can switch into it though can't assume safety, though. Immunities like Guzzlord get smacked by Dazzling Gleam, resists like Copperajah get threatend by Mystical Fire, and passive walls like Bronzong get crippled by Trick.

However, this predicament is far from new. Although Indeedee theoretically breaks through whatever it desires, its typing can make it a bit prediction-reliant. If the team is carrying a Dark-type, or a bulky Steel-type, then Indeedee isn't going to be dropping nukes 100% of the time. Pokémon like Snorlax, Bronzong, Doublade, Copperajah, and Guzzlord can certainly give Indeedee a hard time.

I think the key reason Indeedee warrants a continued ban for me is the wearing down of its checks. Many of its soft checks have pretty indirect recovery, meaning that they can be chipped down with Knock Off and Hazard damage. There's no doubt that a Pokémon like Brozong easily tanks an Expanding Force, but with good teammates weathering it down with Knock Off (a common move) and hazards (also common), what's stopping Indeedee from breaking through it later in the game?

I can definitely see Indeedee being unbanned. It still is prediction-reliant to an extent, and there's nothing wrong with having a nuke in the tier. I just think teams can easily work around the checks that contain it, thus I think it's banworthy.

side note: can pu and nu stop fucking over zu LMAO, arctovish was one of the most unique breakers in zu + alolan sandslash might be gone next shift if hail picks up
 

Togkey

NEFARIOUS ACTS
is a Tiering Contributor
While I do think Indeedee-M sounds broken on paper, I do enjoy the prospect of shaking up the metagame, although the reintroduction of Snow Warning into the tier will do that plenty on its own. Indeedee-M (which I will shorten to NDDM from now on) already has the amazing strength mentioned in the original post, although I don't think it can be stressed enough; this is a fast, Ghost-immune Psychic-type with a solid special attack stat, a powerful and spammable move, and most importantly, the coverage to bypass would-be checks. NDDM is very powerful with either appropriate choice item, but I think its potential lies in its ability to switch up moves to hit Steels with Mystical Fire, Dark types with Dazzling Gleam, and even Heatproof Bronzong with Shadow Ball and Drapion with Hyper Voice, the two relevant picks who can be neutral to NDDM's moves otherwise.

Now obviously if you only look at strengths, any Pokémon can look phenomenal.
Indeedeemstats.png

Although Psychic Terrain means you won't often be revenging this with Priority attacks, NDDM without a Choice Scarf will HAVE to sacrifice momentum in the face of a faster U-Turn or it will take at least half even from Defensive Talonflame. You're also a Ghost-immune who gets OHKO'd by any coverage move a Ghost may be using.

NDDM is broken on paper though, we're already strapped and struggling trying to cover every NU threat in the builder prior to NDDM's unban, and this may break the straw on the Camerupt's back. In conjunction with Snow Warning and Slush Rush threats being reintroduced, its very difficult to tell how this thing will be in the metagame.

This may not have applied to other people but I personally felt pressured to unban NDDM in the tiering survey due to the wording of it saying something along the lines of "If you had to unban something, what would you unban" meaning people just picked the lesser of MANY evils, even if they didn't think anything had to be unbanned (nothing had to be unbanned people were just bored and I think Snow Warning unban was both justified and enough)

Here's the team I used:

:Vanilluxe: :Xatu: :escavalier: :mudsdale: :vaporeon: :heliolisk:
 
Last edited:

Aawin

Feel like Tom Cruise, I'm finna stunt
is a Pre-Contributor
New NP thread! I'll be addressing my current thoughts on Indeedee-M and Hail

:indeedee: - Personally, I think this mon is nuts and I don't see it having a healthy place in the metagame. If I end up getting reqs, I'll probably be voting to keep it banned from NU. We all know how Indeedee-Female functions. Now add 10 special attack and 10 speed and now we're cooking with gas. Indeedee-M has a great speed tier for a breaker in the tier, sitting at a very comfortable base 95. This allows it to speed tie with Pokemon like Silvally-Ground and Drapion, and outspeed other special breakers such as NP Mowtom. 95 speed coupled with 105 special attack is incredibly beneficial, as Indeedee can pull of both Scarfed and Specs sets. Scarfed in particular is a neat option, as it gives the tier a 4th viable scarfer (Passimian, Mowtom, and Heliolisk being the other 3), and Specs allows Indeedee to punch holes with a base 156 STAB move in Expanding Force. It also holds some unique defensive utility, with being immune to Ghost due to its Normal-typing, and Priority such as Doublade's Shadow Sneak and Sirfetch'd's First Impression under Psychic Terrain.

This pokemon has epic coverage that allows it to punish common switch ins and makes this Pokemon incredibly difficult to switch into and hard wall. Specs and Scarf are definitely exploitable with proper scouting and predictions, but let's take a second to appreciate the potential of non-choiced Indeedee. I've talked with Corthius and Togkey about other items such as Life Orb, Expert Belt, Twisted Spoon, and even Wise Glasses to prevent being punished by Choice-locking yourself.

I don't think Indeedee is a healthy addition to the metagame, and prepping for the variations previously mentioned seems incredibly constricting on paper; in practice this might pan out differently (doubting this though)

:vanilluxe: + Slush Rush

Firstly, on the topic of Vanilluxe, I think this Pokemon has a unique niche in the NU metagame as a breaker with Choice Specs. Blizzard in Hail is incredibly spammable off of 110 base Special Attack, and Freeze-Dry as your secondary STAB to nail defensive Water-types that would otherwise stomach your Blizzards (namely Vaporeon and Mantine). Flash Cannon coverage is interesting, as it's not the best move to couple with Ice, but it does allow you to chunk Sylveon without wasting Blizzard PP, and outright OHKO Diancie. Snow Warning basically means just add 6% to whatever calc you're looking at vs mostly every Pokemon barring Overcoat Escavalier. The last slot can be whatever since this Pokemon has dogshit coverage outside of STABS. Ice Shard to pick of weak threats, Aurora Veil for utility, and Explosion for momentum all seem like decent options. With Veil being usable in the tier (no autosetters = bad), I think lead sets with Taunt/Veil/Boom/Freeze Dry or Blizzard could enable some threats like SS Blastoise, Cosmic Power Xatu, and NP Salazzle, to name a few. None of these sweepers like taking Hail damage from Vanilluxe though.

:abomasnow: is a weird, anti-meta pick with strong dual STABS in Leaf Storm and Blizzard, with Focus Blast/Earth Power as good coverage moves to hit steels, and sporting an okay speed tier at base 60, but is probably bad due to the amount of weaknesses it has, inability to break without Choice Specs (which also means it's weak to SR).

I think Hail is incredibly overrated at the moment and Alolaslash and Beartic are dogshit abusers. Hard stopped by a well-played Vaporeon and struggling with Escavalier is no bueno imo. It is in fact a playstyle in the tier, but I see it as nothing more than a fad. Adaptation is definitely needed for this playstyle to be seen as formidable versus most common structures

tl;dr- Indeedee is not healthy, Vanilluxe is kinda cool (use the Togkey team), and Hail is overrated
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Pre-Contributor
I've kind of been ignoring Indeedee the past day or two in favor of trying out our other new toy: Snow Warning. Unlike the last time we had hail in the tier, I find it fills a really nice niche in the current metagame that allows for different Pokemon to flourish and forces some adaptation. Specifically, this is what I've been testing around with.

:ss/vanilluxe:

I've been LOVING Vanilluxe right now. As probably the most viable hail setter, it has a bunch of cool options such as unmissable Blizzards, Taunt, Explosion, and Veil that lets it put in work on a large variety of teams. Vanilluxe's best set though, in my opinion, is clearly Specs. The current meta is extremely Ice-type weak, with Pokemon like Xatu, Dragon-types, and Vileplume seeing huge upticks in usage as Vaporeon starts to fall off. At the same time the ice cream cone has a really solid speed tier, and Bronzong, the go-to Steel for many, is a 4HKO from Blizzard, making chipping Steel-types extremely easy for other Pokemon to sweep or it to break. These traits allow it to be a potentially potent threat and it fills a really nice niche as an Ice-type breaker that I hope to see a lot more of.

Silvally-Ground @ Ground Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Multi-Attack
- Rock Slide
- Flame Charge / U-Turn

Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Flash Cannon
- Freeze-Dry
- Water Pulse

:ss/Beartic:

One of the highlights of opening Hail back up again is seeing just how niche Slush Rush Pokemon can fit into the meta. We all know what Alolaslash can do, but I wanted to touch upon Beartic, which started as a meme, but is a mon I see as something with a lot of potential in the current meta. Under Hail, a Jolly Beartic outspeeds Passimian (just slower than Mowtom sadly), placing it in a solid spot speed wise to sweep. On top of that, it has all the coverage it needs in Icicle Crash, Throat Chop (bonus lets you set up on Sylv), Low Kick/Superpower, and Liquidation that, when coupled with SD or CB, make Beartic a legitimate threat. All of this coming off 130 Atk in a meta that's Ice + Fighting coverage weak and on the slower side really allows Beartic to shine. I've been playing around a lot with it and I got to say, I recommend giving it a try. It's put in work almost every single game I've used it, whether against opposing Sand, Balance, or Offense, and it fills a really cool role of as a Hail demon.

P.S. I use Superpower on CB for immediate power and Low Kick on SD sets to not lower Atk and Def, especially when your two main targets are Lax and Copper.

Beartic @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Low Kick
- Throat Chop

Beartic @ Choice Band
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Superpower
- Liquidation
- Throat Chop

Some Beartic Replays (ignore the mono ice it was funny)
Beartic against a fatter, slow team gets 6 kills. Also shows how cool Throat Chop is - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1459136558-1xwc251vd05dd03k8mgmxkxp1ukjjg4pw
Beartic beats down some sand - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1459320864-ixluvgd8ubywjnmaqb4jev5zgyyq7skpw
 
Last edited:
:ss/indeedee:

While using indeedee it's felt very strong for sure, but not as strong as I expected prior to using it. Indeedee is extremely frail, a lot more frail than I imagined it to be, making it quite hard to repeatedly position yourself into a position to click. It's even worse against certain defensive cores, especially ones which have things like steel + dark type, protect spam, steel + bulky wish user.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1462123477-rkak9znalcamjzyna7umgwr58pbzavppw

I didn’t look at indeedee's stats prior to using it, so I guess this is partially my fault, but the blizzard from aurorus nearly OHKOing me goes to show how if you aren't able to get the turn correct/kill the target, you have a huge chance of just dying all together.

There are many other instances where I've been underwhelmed by its frailty, though that was the only semi relevant replay I could find of it. There are also many replays where it's felt underwhelming as it struggled to do much against very bulky defensive cores.

However despite that, I do think indeedee contributes negatively to the metagame and ill probably be voting ban. The biggest thing for me is in the teambuilder, as it forces a very strict team composition in order to not lose to it. Even pre-indeedee, you were already tasked to deal with many, many strong breakers in the teambuilder. The unbanning of indeedee would just make the problem even worse. Even if you do use a steel + dark type composition, one wrong move for the dark type and suddenly it just drops. If you don't have an effective core to handle indeedee's stabs + coverage then it's very easy for it to make progress in a game and just kill everything in sight.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1462751574

In this game, the use of a protect spdef steel + blanket special tank is not enough to deal with indeedee's huge power output. This replay also demonstrates how positioning is still relatively easy with this it, despite its frailty.

Offensively in the builder it can also be quite challenging to effectively beat. Its speed is so, so huge for outspeeding nearly every scarfer we have. The fact that you can't even reliably use Drapion or Silvally to revenge kill is extremely annoying, and the blocked priority is just the cherry on top. Normally with other frail and unwallable breakers, they are at least slow and can be easily revengeable, which is not the case for indeedee.

Overall I've found indeedee to be somewhat manageable in-game, but its restrictive and unforgiving nature leads me to lean ban
 

Togkey

NEFARIOUS ACTS
is a Tiering Contributor
Well this thread died.

Winners of Stage 10 of SSNU:

:Vanilluxe:

The ice cream cements itself as a potent support and wall-breaking Pokémon in NU. Vanilluxe brings a lot to the table in terms of utility simply by existing; Snow Warning gives a huge boost in viability to some offensive Slush Rushers, namely Beartic and Alolan-Sandslash, while also helping itself pack accurate Blizzards and negating Leftovers on opposing bulky Pokémon. Vanilluxe also offers Taunt and Aurora Veil (broken move) to support its fellow, otherwise frail, Ice type friends, it also has Ice Shard and Explosion, I guess. Offensively speaking Vanilluxe is a beast, boasting one of the best offensive types in the game as STAB, and a base 110 one at that, as well as Freeze Dry to hit one of 3 Ice resists for Super-Effective damage. Hail damage is great for helping to wear down special walls like Bronzong and Sylveon, although Overcoat Escavalier doesn't mind Ice attacks or Hail damage. In terms of coverage, Vanilluxe actually has almost nothing, although Flash Cannon may be used to snipe Diancie and preserve Blizzard PP vs SDef Sylveon or Articuno.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 357-420 (99.4 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 196-232 (52.4 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 504-592 (134.7 - 158.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 40+ SpD Vaporeon: 306-362 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Diancie: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage and Leftovers recovery

:Beartic: :sandslash-alola:

Best said by Pokeslice, these things are actually viable now although I can't tell by what amount yet. Most common Choice-Scarfers (Passimian, Rotom-Mow) outspeed them unless they choose to sacrifice a ton of power for a positive Speed Nature (Heliolisk will always outspeed). Obviously offensive Ice-types are insane, and these in particular have access to great coverage, Swords Dance, and some semblance of bulk.

:Escavalier:

Overcoat Escavalier being the best Steel in the tier is finally a legitimate debate. Being a semi-self sustaining Hail check all on its own, forcing Knock Off on Mudsdale and Talonflame, and also naturally checking many common Pokémon like Sylveon, Diancie, Bronzong, and Rotom-Mow, this thing will often be seen on balance teams that may struggle with Hails sheer breaking power otherwise. Protect sets allow Escavalier to heal from Leftovers even while in Hail, and when paired with Toxic or Swords Dance, it can usually cripple an entire team before finally going down. Escav can also run a speedy Swords Dance 3 attacks set to demolish some very slow balance teams that rely on Copperajah as a check, dropping it with Close Combat.

:Machamp: :Rhydon:

Not similar Pokemon besides originating generation, but on this list for the same reasons. As snow storms break lose, maybe Steel-types and other specially defensive walls will rise to the occasion, allowing Machamp and Rhydon to wreck havoc. I think Machamp has gotten a lot better lately, infamously being legitimately impossible to switch into safely and having the bulk to always take at least one hit from something, having that 1-for-1 at worst trade capability is very important whether the weather metagame decides to bulk up or become more offensive. Rhydon is another Steel type eater but also may come up as a Ground-type on par with Mudsdale, who finds itself losing to the ever-present (broken) Xatu. Being able to get Rocks up vs the new Ice types (and in general) is very important and something Rhydon can do very consistently, even vs Xatu. Rhydon still checks the same things as Mudsdale, but has more set diversity and better moves, although technically lacks both an item and an ability.

:Vaporeon:

Hey guys, did you know that in terms of male human and female Pokémon breeding, Vaporeon historically has been one of the best Pokémon when it comes to dealing with Hail teams? Before Snow Warning was banned, Vaporeon actually felt like it was almost required on most teams, although that was mostly due to the now-banned Arctovish. Vaporeon still does what its always done, be a fat pos,but now it can calmly stare down another arsenal of threats and Scald them down all the same.
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Bronzong is BronzGONE!!!
1641058697278.png

bye bye!
Winners:
Bronzong leaving the metagame is huge shakeup within the tier. In-play, we'll see more wallbreakers that are hard to stop. In the builder, we'll have to resort to nicher Steel-types or special walls. There's also less of a need to prep for defensive wincons given that Iron Defense Bronzong was easily the most prolific of them all. I honestly cannot stress this enough: there is no reason for teams to be 6-0'd by Bronzong this late into this metagame. And still, it happens everyday on the ladder, and it even happens in tour games. (See 1, 2). No need to fret on that threat now, but there are a lot more to be concerned with...

Wallbreakers: :goodra: :exploud: :indeedee-F: :sylveon: :duraludon: :salazzle: :turtonator: :dragalge: :vanilluxe: :sandslash-alola: :beartic: :ground_memory:

This first part is kind of nuts. The threat of Heatproof Bronzong made a good 4 special wallbreakers––Goodra, Exploud, Indeedee-F, and Choice Specs Sylveon––all have a shared counter. Steel's resistances + Heatproof made Bronzong one of the only safe switch-ins to these lot, and even though some of them could still nuke it with Shadow Ball, the fact of the matter is that Dragon / Psychic / Normal / Fairy STAB attacks combined with Fire coverage is going to be a lot better. This by extension helps Fire-types like Salazzle out, as it no longer has to fear Heatproof + Psychic checking it, and it with others like the rare Turtonator will absolutely tear through the remaining Steel-types.

Then there's Durludon, which has already been seeing crazy good tour usage, and it's buffed as it no longer needs to run Dark Pulse. It can run Body Press for Copperajah if it really wanted to, or it can try Thunder Wave and Stealth Rock for more utility. Needless to say, increasing its options is a nice perk, though Dark Pulse to revenge kill slower Ghost-types might still be the move.

Dragalge, Vanilluxe, other hail mons, and Silvally-Ground get better by the extension that there's one less check for them, but it's Silvally-Ground that's the big winner here. The former four can spam STAB attacks more often, with Dragalge also maybe entertaining Focus Blast over Scald if it really wants to bait Copperajah, Silvally-Steel. and Togedemaru; Scald for Escavalier is still very important on some teams like hail. Silvally-Ground though lost its hardest counter, so it's gonna go off pretty soon.

Walls::copperajah: :escavalier: :doublade: :steel_memory: :togedemaru: :stunfisk-galar: :diancie: :sylveon: :vaporeon: :guzzlord::tangela:

Okay let's get this out of the way; yes, other Steel-types are all going to be a bit better with Bronzong gone. No, none of them will replace Brozong on your teams. Levitate / Heatproof are way too invaluable teambuilding-wise + Bronzong's coverage is often way more unique, so nothing will fill that void perfectly. I really hate Copperajah and I think its one of the more fishy Steel-types to use but surely it will be considered the go-to for a little while unless fellow Escavalier supporters rise up. Galarian Stunfisk and Togedamru are my next favorites, especially with how good Rotom-C and Heliolisk are right now, and I feel like Silvally-Steel and Doublade are also too fishy or inconsistent to use. Other special walls are kinda better by extension, especially if you subscribe to the notion that Diancie is a pseudo-Steel-type. Also shouts out to fast Body Press Diancie, of which would destroy Copperajah and Galarian Stunfisk if those two really caught on.

Losers:
:xatu: :decidueye: :dhelmise: :palossand: :ninjask: :scyther:

Xatu is a huge loser here. It's main drawing perk was that it sat on Bronzong and Teleported out. Now its a big downgrade compared to a lot of comparative walls, especially given that additional forms of removal like Rapid Spin Tsareena are becoming more popular. What, you want to stop Vileplume's Strength Sap? There's still Goodra for that. Xatu still sits on Mudsdale and Quagsire so maybe there's some hope, but the typing is super exploitable for a luxury of deterring Stealth Rocks. I cannot see Xatu doing as well as it has been.

Ghost-types are also probably going to be not as hot, largely just because they won't be picked for the added perk of stopping Body Press sweeps. There's also collateral to consider like Xatu worsening and Silvally-Ground strengthening, and overall I see these as cons.

It's hard to say what else directly / indirectly is hurt. My last guess is on U-turn users like Ninjask and Scyther just because they're going to be less effective at wearing down walls when Bronzong is gone and Diancie will be popping off.

------

That's all I have to comment on for now. The takeaway is that there are A LOT of wallbreakers to keep an eye on, and I really don't like the outlook on things. Sure a lot of these had fishy matchups before but now it feels like they can always go in, so that's something we should all be monitoring.

What are your thoughts on BronzGone?
 
Last edited:
I've been really enjoying this new meta, though I guess it's just the result of a new metagame. I'll probably complain about a mon or many as the weeks progress, but until then it's been very exciting so far. I'll just list some things I've been liking recently:

:ss/aggron: :ss/rhydon:

Specially defensive Aggron was the first thing that came to mind when I was thinking of ways to beat the rising dragon types. It serves as a decent check to threats such as Goodra/Dragalge/Sylveon/Exploud and is a stealth rock setter that can threaten Xatu. I think protect is pretty necessary in order to maintain health and for scouting purposes, but the other moveslots could probably use some more experimentation. In particular things like body press or even ID could be cool. So far during laddering it's done its job pretty well, overall would recommend.

Rhydon, another bulky rock type has been working out great so far, specifically specially defensive. While not perfect it can still act as an okay check to goodra, exploud and other threatening special attackers while still being a reliable stealth rocker. It is also a good check and response to the numerous rising normal types.

:ss/braviary: :ss/heliolisk: :ss/snorlax: :ss/tauros::ss/exploud:

The departure of Bronzong opens up a lot more opportunities for normal types, similarly to the deadly dragons that currently roam the tier. Specifically, things like Braviary, Snorlax, Exploud or even more niche mons like Drampa all benefit and can punch huge holes in many teams. The use of Xatu to try and block Bronzong isn't super necessary anymore either, meaning it can be easier to build 'normal spam' teams. Speaking of which, it's a lot of fun, and is very easy to overwhelm common resists such as Diancie or Copperajah.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1484183205-kbywx9c4j3exqr5w115rbw313ygatx2pw

I think this replay shows off well how potent normal spam can be. Rhydon is the normal resist on the opposing side but is overwhelmed very quickly causing Braviary and Exploud to claim many KOs

:ss/garbodor:

With Bronzong out of the picture stone walling Garbodor and Xatu usage declining Garbodor's future looks very promising. Garbodor can lowkey check all the brokens by virtue of spikes alone and still has utility outside of it by being an excellent check/switchin to many rising or already prominent threats, such as specs sylveon or BU scrafty with haze.
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Pre-Contributor
With Bronzong out of the picture, I wanted to touch on some Pokemon that will really shine, and since Goodra and Silvally-G have been looked at a bunch, I want to talk upon a different menace. That being the now even more insane...

:ss/salazzle:
Heatproof Bronzong was one of the few answers it had in the tier, and arguably the second most consistent behind the likes of Vaporeon. With it now gone, Salazzle, thanks to its great movepool, speed tier, and typing, is ready to keep running over the tier. I want to know what people think of Salazzle with Bronzong gone. Is it too good? Do we just suck it up and use more Quag and friends? Is it overrated? In my opinion, close watch should be kept on it for now.

Salazzle (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Dragon Pulse

20/20 vision (Goodra) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder
- Fire Blast
- Iron Tail

Ho3n also touched on this briefly, but I want to bring up what is, in my opinion, one of, if not THE, biggest loser of this shift.

:ss/xatu:
With Bronzong gone, there's a lot less reason to use Xatu. Sure, freeing up what sometimes felt like a mandatory Night Shade slot for Rest Zong is nice, but with nothing really left for it to truly abuse, its mediocre stats have finally caught up with it. It still has the merit of forcing SR mindgames, but the current rockers left are now a lot less scared of Xatu. Even Mudsdale, who was part of why Xatu saw usage in the first place, is only beat my Xatu if it gets Knocked first, which although likely, is an example of how Xatu doesn't warp games in the same way it did with Bronzong. With the limited removal in the tier and the ability to keep off rocks, Xatu will still see use, but it's not going to seem as good as before with its number 1 target gone. What are everyone else's thoughts on Xatu?
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Pre-Contributor
oops double posting. I don't care, fight me!

:ss/goodra:

I love making pros and cons lists for meta mons (check out Cress and Guzz ones from way back), so here are my thoughts on Goodra. If I missed something crucial or got something wrong, feel free to call it out.
PROS
  • Great coverage allows it to break through almost every defensive core out there
  • Fantastic bulk allows it to constantly switch into more defensive Pokemon (and even some more offensive ones) multiple times over a game
  • A whole slew of resistances thanks to a Dragon-typing and Sap Sipper make it a valuable partner for many teams
  • Solid speed tier that often allows for the usage of +SPA natures
  • Very few defensive cores exist that can truly wall it
CONS
  • Not immediately powerful, usually takes one or two hits before things start to fall apart
  • Middling speed lets it get outpaced and revenged by more offensive Pokemon
  • Accuracy is a bitch if you aren't skilled like me

After playing around and building a lot in the new meta post Bronzong, Goodra is a Pokemon I keep going back to use and the reason I scrap many teams. With that bulky SpDef and crazy coverage, this is a balance destroyer in a way no other Pokemon is at the moment, capable of sitting on, and breaking, countless defensive cores. Most notably, teams reliant on Diancie or Escav as a Draco switch in or cores centered around Vileplume. I've started to find it extremely restrictive when building in the tier and It's been hard to find reliable answers or teams that can deal with it. I think we should keep an eye on it and potentially suspect it in the future if it gets too overbearing. Thoughts? Is Goodra too restrictive/too much, or am I just bad? The answer can be both!

Personally, I also want to know how people are dealing with it. Sylveon cores are the obvious example, with the Fairy cleric probably the most reliable answer in the tier (until you face Sludge Bomb with rocks up of course). I've also been resorting to a lot more cores with Toxic Vaporeon + a Heal Bell Pokemon, as the bulky Water can sit on Goodra, and with Toxic, what is usually seen as Goodra bait in the right conditions, is now an answer. On top of that, I try to make sure every balance team has some way to outspeed and KO Goodra, because without a way to pressure it offensively, your team WILL lose straight up. How have other people been trying to deal with it outside of these ways? Is there a secret tech that I don't know yet? Please share half my teams are invalidated by it :psycry:
 

Rabia

men
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator
GP Co-Leader
yo, just wanted to get a post out about some recent council discussions. No course of action is decided on as of now, but there are some Pokemon we want to keep an eye on over the next few weeks; the metagame is sort of shit right now.

:ss/goodra:
Goodra is an insane beneficiary of Bronzong rising. Heatproof Bronzong was such an easy check to slap on teams that I think we sort of ignored how oppressive it was in general; the tier really does lack meaningful ways to take on Goodra now. Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Thunder(bolt) / Iron Tail is incredible right now and covers almost every switch-in possible, and unlike a lot of our other wallbreakers, Goodra has both bulk and Speed to go alongside its great offenses.

:ss/blastoise:
It's less that we think Blastoise is overpowered or broken and more that Blastoise remains an insanely restrictive presence in the teambuilder. It's the easiest Pokemon to point to as something that can win a game in a single turn if you do allow it to Shell Smash. With how many different offensive Pokemon are dominating right now, Blastoise can oftentimes find matchups where it'll just win because Bronzong's departure has fucked up teambuilding flexibility a fair bit, which leads to more builds that Blastoise can cheese past.

:ss/exploud:
Exploud is unlikely to see action taken on it, but we do acknowledge that it's a hell of a lot harder to beat defensively now. Unlike Goodra, though, it has negligible defensive purpose and a pretty lacking Speed tier. Still, STAB Choice Specs Boomburst is really good.

:ss/copperajah:
This mention is definitely more self-serving LOL, but I do think Copperajah is lowkey dangerous as fuck right now. The standard all-out attacking set is much less manageable with Bronzong gone, as Superpower + Stone Edge + Power Whip is now effectively covering every check to it. Copperajah is definitely a Pokemon that I, personally, believe will continue gaining traction going forward.

Snow Warning
Most of us seem to be of the opinion that full hail is not as good as its results have shown, primarily because its wins are coming against teams that don't really acknowledge that it exists. Even then, you'll see it barely manage a win in those matchups at times, showing it's certainly an archetype you can play yourself into a win against. We do believe that semi-hail cores with Vanilluxe + Alolan Sandslash, however, are quite promising and strong. As with any cheese archetype, it's going to be a bitch to deal with at times, so we're still monitoring it.

Some general things I've liked so far:
:vileplume: I think Vileplume is just really solid so far. It's good at blanket checking a fair amount of the physical metagame, and the trapping sets are pretty cool. Escavalier + Salazzle are probably the best answers to it but can falter at times depending on sets.

:diancie: Offensive sets are great, be it Choice Specs, Calm Mind, or Rock Polish + Meteor Beam. Bronzong leaving has been huge for really any Pokemon that had to struggle with coverage against Heatproof Bronzong + other Steel-types, and Diancie can now comfortably run Mystical Fire to handle foes like Escavalier, Copperajah, and Vileplume.

:machamp: I think Machamp is on par or better than Sirfetch'd in many regards mostly because of Guts. Not caring about Talonflame's Flame Body and Vileplume's Effect Spore is fantastic and makes it a lot easier to build around, which I find really important in this metagame.
 
Time to get my own Goodra post in. The only word that describes this mon post zong is menace. It can 2HKO the entire tier on switchin when you factor in rocks using its vast movepool. Even Sylveon has to choose between getting 2HKO'd by sludge or by iron tail. And as others have mentioned, you can oftentimes run +SpA natures since there isn't much that +Spe outspeeds that +SpA doesnt (the only important mon in between is ice cream imo).

Goodra @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 28 Atk / 252 SpA / 228 Spe
Mild Nature
- Fire Blast
- Iron Tail
- Draco Meteor
- Thunder

The set above has enough speed for jolly Sirfetch'd with maxxed out SpA and the rest put into Atk. The Atk EVs allow it to 2HKO even phys def Diancie with Iron Tail (technically there's a 0.4% chance it survives without rocks, not that it matters since we all suck and will whiff). +SpA allows it to have an 87.5% chance to straight up OHKO Sirfetch'd with draco (this does not include unviable ladder sets with max bulk, I learned that the hard way), among many other benchmarks, most notably a guaranteed 2HKO on standard Vaporeon, and a 92.6% chance 2HKO on SpDef Vaporeon with rocks up.

It's obvious Goodra is extremely difficult to deal with, but not impossible. While messing around with Togkey and making stupid teams, I accidentally made a consistent Goodra switchin (at least until they run superpower). Say hello to my not so little friend.

Snorlax @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Heat Crash
- Darkest Lariat

This thing takes <30% from all of Goodra's standard moves, that's all that needs to be said. When paired with appropriate healing support, be that Healing wish (use NDD, v good post zong) or just normal wish passing, this thing walls the notorious dragon, and dishes out damage. Gigalith also works as a Goodra switchin, but taking 40% from Iron Tail on switchin is not ideal, and having Sand up can chip your team down very quickly.

Other ways I've used to deal with the dragon are similar to what Pokeslice does with the toxic Vaporeon, oftentimes paired with cleric Sylveon because I do not trust Diancie to avoid Iron Tail. All of this however, is often only barely enough, sometimes not enough, to deal with Goodra due to its raw power and coverage, and when you consider that it most likely has a team that can chip down and break through it's checks.

Final thoughts

This mon is ridiculous. I do not understand why Davon voted for it to drop to B post zong, and as such it remains where it is on the VR, but I definitely think this is a S-/S mon. In fact, I believe it is definitely suspect worthy having been abusing it and being abused by it the past 2 weeks. As long as you are a skilled player and hit your moves, you should be able to run through the whole tier with ease.
 
I guess this thread isn't dead anymore and apparently, we're talking about Goodra so I suppose another opinion can't hurt.

:Goodra:
Honestly, I don't think there's anyone who hasn't just lost to this mon because of good prediction and a little bit of good old fashioned accuracy luck. As to the idea that it's broken... I'm not convinced. I'm not gonna argue that Goodra is a fantastic balance breaker with some really nice defensive utility, but it has some definite drawbacks that can hold it back. For starters, the tradeoff of power, speed, and accuracy is a big juggling task for Goodra. While its speed is just good enough to justify Modest, it is worth noting that there are a couple of mons that outspeed you with +SpAtk and 252 Spe, most notably the base 70-ish's (Decidueye, Tyrantrum, Tsareena). That's obviously not a long list, but they can definitely threaten Goodra thanks to its lackluster base 70 Def, which is one of the notable exploitable gaps it has when you're attempting to revenge kill it. It also kinda sucks that if you want to deal the most damage and break the most things, you have to give up the accuracy of your moves. For instance, mixed Def Vaporeon actually has the ability to somewhat wall you without Thunder, but then you're running 70 accuracy moves. Thus, we come to the other thing that's happened to anyone that's used Goodra, you lost because of that one crucial miss. However, the most notable flaw of Goodra imo is its susceptibility to passive damage. Goodra's lack of resilience against hazards and status conditions severely inhibits its ability to switch in throughout the game, especially because of its need for a power boosting item. I used to scoff at the people running HDB on Goodra back in the day, but it turns out that decision isn't entirely unjustified. This weakness is only made worse by the fact that some of the more consistent hazard removal in the tier have been made worse by the departure of Bronzong, most notably Xatu, who was an excellent Goodra partner a meta ago (and probably still is lack of exp in this category on my part). As for how to answer Goodra, I can't really add anything that hasn't already been said, although I can raise Phantomistix one in the stupid answer department and suggest: :Cryogonal:

Cryogonal @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin/Defog
- Freeze-Dry
- Recover
- Knock Off/Toxic

It's actually kinda hilarious how you take nothing from any of Goodra's non-Fire Blast moves, and if you happen to sponge a Draco Meteor on the switch, you actually just wall it. It also acts as an emergency Blastoise check and can generally switch into most special attackers and eat one hit and dish a STAB Freeze Dry back, not that it's thaaat powerful, but it's been a fun mon to build with. Anyways, I do think that despite its flaws, Goodra is definitely worth keeping an eye on, as the meta could develop in such a way that refined Goodra cores can just wallop anything. That's my rant, feel free to call me an idiot. Happy posting!

[EDIT] Totally forgot Iron Tail existed thanks Aawin.
 
Last edited:

Aawin

Feel like Tom Cruise, I'm finna stunt
is a Pre-Contributor
Very original Aawin content coming in, making my own post on Goodra bc why not

Post-Zong Goodra has risen to be one of the premier mons in the meta, and for good reason. Solid offenses with coverage to dunk on mostly everything that would comfortably switch in to Goodra. Fire Blast is mandatory, as it nails AV Copper and torches the fuck out of Escavalier, Thunder(bolt if you're not confident in the ability to hit) for bulky waters such as Vaporeon and Mantine, and from there the coverage can realistically be customized to your liking. Depending on the team structure you could feasibly run EQ, Iron Tail, Power Whip, Hydro Pump, or Sludge Bomb last (Iron Tail is prob the best overall, Hydro is also ntb).

Like others have noted, once hazards go up and ample pressure is applied, this mon becomes difficult to stop on the defensive front due to its immense coverage. Offensively it's still threatened by faster physical attackers such as scarfed Passiman and Talonflame, and doesn't appreciate shit like Starmie/Inteleon Ice Beam. Speed tier is kinda lacking but there's rarely a game where Goodra does nothing. I'd be supportive of a suspect if it eventually gets to that point.

It's actually kinda hilarious how you take nothing from any of Goodra's non-Fire Blast moves
4 Atk Expert Belt Goodra Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cryogonal: 300-355 (82.6 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - wouldn't exactly call this nothing

I'd also love to hear from Davon on why he chose to vote Goodra for B with one of the best answers in Heatproof Zong rising out of the tier, shit makes 0 sense to me tbh LOL
 
Last edited:
A Goodra counter that's worked handily for me in initial testing:

:Machamp: @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade
- Heavy Slam

252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 159-187 (42.5 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Goodra Thunder(/Fire Blast) vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 90-106 (24 - 28.3%) -- 96.4% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Sludge Bomb(/Thunderbolt/Flamethrower) vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 73-87 (19.5 - 23.2%) -- possible 5HKO

252+ Atk Machamp Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 288-340 (75.1 - 88.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Machamp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 156-184 (40.7 - 48%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Heavy Slam is for the obvious fairy-type switch ins. OHKOs Specs Sylv and 2HKOs defensive Sylv while outpacing it (and you can even comfortably tank a hit against defensive Sylveon, so this works as a surprise check there). No surprise, it crushes other fairy types, too.

Guts instead of the standard No Guard + Dynamic Punch on AV Machamp because Talonflame/Flame Body are still things and toxic/scald are everywhere, so may as well capitalize. Guts makes this a solid counter for Vaporeon, Salazzle, and even mow-tom, too, since Scarf has nothing on you and defensive can't even benefit from Wisp.

Clearly prone to getting worn down (just like AV :Copperajah:), so it needs wish pass support to keep up its job throughout the match, but vapes and sylveon are already stars in the tier, so nbd there.

Honestly, it beats the brakes off of a good chunk of the tier. Try it out!
 

Corthius

IT'S RADICAL
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
A Goodra counter that's worked handily for me in initial testing:

:Type-Null: @ Eviolite
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 SpD
Careful Nature
- U-turn
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Toxic

252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 109-130 (27.6 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 51-61 (12.9 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Thunder vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 62-74 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 51-61 (12.9 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 62-74 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
4 Atk Goodra Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Type: Null: 44-52 (11.1 - 13.1%) -- possible 8HKO
4 Atk Expert Belt Goodra Superpower vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Eviolite Type: Null: 118-139 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 17.4% chance to 3HKO

0 Atk Type: Null U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Goodra: 73-86 (22.7 - 26.7%) -- 30.6% chance to 4HKO
Type: Null Toxic vs. 0 HP Goodra: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Now of course you don't immediately threaten Goodra with KOing it, but Goodra will never make any progress versus you and you can comfortably click any of your moves to gain momentum into a faster threat that forces Goodra out of battle, heal up any prior damage taken from switching in, get of a Toxic on a potential switchin or use the good old 1/3 chance to do nothing of the afformentioned and be useless.
 

Meri Berry

is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
NU Leader
Due to popular demand from the community and previous discussions in council, we had a council vote on Slush Rush. The results are posted below:

1642389396114.png


Because of the outcome of this vote, Slush Rush is now banned in NU! This is predominately because of the prevalence of Sandslash-Alola in the tier, a fast breaker able to adapt to most of the tier's threats through techs such as Rock Slide for Talonflame, while offering a threatening Triple Axel which became very hard to wall when combined with the other tools that Hail teams provided. However, Beartic has also been a topic of discussion, and we believe it is much cleaner to ban the ability than the Pokemon at this time.

We will have a survey very soon asking about what preference the community has for this Hail ban, as well as addressing other Pokemon such as Goodra and Silvally-Ground. However, this came to a council vote because of the Neverused Snake Draft playoffs coming up soon, as well as the Winter Seasonal starting very soon. If there are any concerns about this vote, feel free to post them below, but just know that we will be asking about this topic in the very near future.​
 

Attachments

Togkey

NEFARIOUS ACTS
is a Tiering Contributor
:Beartic: :sandslash-alola:

Best said by Pokeslice, these things are actually viable now although I can't tell by what amount yet. Most common Choice-Scarfers (Passimian, Rotom-Mow) outspeed them unless they choose to sacrifice a ton of power for a positive Speed Nature (Heliolisk will always outspeed). Obviously offensive Ice-types are insane, and these in particular have access to great coverage, Swords Dance, and some semblance of bulk.
Sayonara Slush Rushers, you will be missed by some, maybe.

Banning Slush Rush was very much needed to help a tier already struggling to build without Bronzong even without a new, restricting, and very powerful archetype in Hail offense. I look forward to seeing more diverse team building now that a huge threat that typically required 1-3 specific partners or movesets just to deal with per team is nerfed. Alternative bans discussed in this thread to help deal with hail such as banning Snow Warning simply do not target the issue players have with hail teams in the current metagame; the unbridled speed control paired with arguably the best offensive typing in the game. I think Snow Warning alone is a healthy introduction to the tier, unlocking a powerful yet volatile breaker in Vanilluxe, who can force progress even on its limited pool of checks thanks to hail negating Leftovers. As just mentioned, Vanilluxe alone is capable of overwhelming many Pokemon with proper support; add even more incredibly fast Pokemon with similar checks to the picture and now you have an extremely oppressive playstyle with very minimal effort required to use and an even more minimal number of checks who could survive the onslaught and live to tell the tale, being limited to namely Vaporeon, Overcoat Escavalier, and Thick Fat Snorlax.

Despite a big reason for Vaporeon and Snorlax to shine being gone, I do think the metagame will continue to favor them as special breakers rise in usage to prey on a Bronzong-less meta. Aawin and I have developed a fantastic Vaporeon spread with notes in the paste here. Vaporeon continues to be a phenomenal wall and synergizes well with other metagame staples like Mudsdale and Escavalier.
 
Last edited:

Elias PSY

Uh...later
is a Top Tiering Contributor
:ss/silvally-ground:

It was already hard to check it defensively on long run with bronzong departure.Common defensive walls such as mudsdale and plume get overwhelmed through multiple boosteds u-turn,the former also doesn't get recovery,vaporeon and mantine relying on burn to deal with it.This make groundvally the easiest way to make progress without needing any predictions.
Now with slush rush ban,vally losing offensive checks in sandslash and beartic ,the only decent ones remaining are scarf rotom-mow who can't switch a lot on u-turn and starmie unable to deal with flame charge variants !
Stupid mon needs to go.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 3)

Top