Metagame NP: NU Stage 11- Creep

[etern]

Hi folks, it's been a while but the NU Council has decided to move into the next stage of NU by suspect testing Slowbro.

Slowbro has been a dominant force in NU since the beginning of the generation. It's by far the most dynamic and adaptable Pokemon in the tier and has been able to develop new sets to respond to the metagame. Some of it's most popular sets include Assault Vest, Toxic Pivot, Calm Mind + Z-Move, Calm Mind + Block, and Z-Move Pivot. Slowbro warps the metagame around itself and is arguably the most influential Pokemon in the tier due to it's combination of versatility in sets, amazing movepool, fantastic bulk, and great power.

There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, we'll be using the normal NU ladder which will remain open for the duration of the test. A message will pop up at the beginning of ladder games to indicate that the suspect is going on. (Tagging Marty to implement, thank you!) Slowbro will be legal for the entirety of this suspect test. Anyone who wishes to participate in this suspect test will use a newly-made alt with a suspect-specific tag to indicate that you are trying to achieve reqs. The requirements for this suspect test are the following:

• All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! NU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "NUSS (nickname)" For example, I might register the alt NUSS Eternally to ladder with. Don't impersonate other people in your ladder alt to avoid confusion and do not insult other users in your ladder alt or you risk being barred from getting reqs.
• To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 40 games, and achieve a minimum GXE of 80.

You have until Monday, November 5th at 11:59 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements. Feel free to post your stance on Slowbro and get some good discussion going!

Rules for posting in this thread

1. No one liners nor uninformed posts;
2. No inappropriate / meme posts that would be deemed off-topic.
3. No discussion on other potential suspects;
4. No discussion on the suspect process;
5. You are required to make respectful posts;

Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning and at the complete discretion of the tier leaders.

 

[Funbot28]

Why are we suspecting Slowbro? It's not even that good. It can't come in on the best fire type in the tier and loses to the other S rank. It also let's in threats like a-eggy, guzzlord and sceptile.

Ur really underselling Slowbro's capability as a defensive pivot. While it is true that it lets in certain wallbreakers such as Guzzlord, Heliolisk, Exeggutor-A, and Sceptle in relatively for free (assuming not AV) , you also have to take into account how it can pretty much invalidate the majority of physical attackers in the tier. The sheer impact that Slowbro has on teambuilding and in game is the main reason why it is being suspected I believe. Its splashability and defensive pivoting capabilities throughout the various amount of defensive sets it can run is what truly makes it menacing in the current meta, regardless if a select few of wallbreakers can break through it (which is even a shame due to Regen pivoting).

 

[Rabia]

I've got nothing better to do, so I'll type my thoughts on the pink boy.

I do not think Slowbro is ban-worthy. There's a multitude of reasons as to why, but I first want to address some arguments I've heard already during the test and from before it.

1) "Slowbro is (over)centralizing." I put the 'over' in parentheses because they have different connotations imo. I 100% agree that Slowbro is a centralizing force; it does many things better than anything else in the tier: defensive pivot, bulky Water-type, bulky setup sweeper. These are all things I feel anyone can argue (and win said argument) Slowbro to be the best at. But overcentralizing? Nah. Idrk if there's some set-in-stone definition for the word, but the way I look at overcentralization is if either a) not using the Pokemon puts you at a distinct disadvantage (essentially meaning there is no reason to not use the Pokemon under any circumstances) or b) the Pokemon makes others of the same type significantly worse/harder to justify using. I feel that part (a) is easy to argue; there have been plenty of teams that have not utilized Slowbro and been successful. This extends into part (b) in that Slowbro's role as a defensive pivot is easily covered by other Pokemon: Vaporeon, Vileplume, Palossand, and more can cover this role and check similar Pokemon Slowbro does. The big distinctions here between Slowbro and other Pokemon end up being two factors: Regenerator and blankets (you know, the thing you sleep under). Regenerator is the huge thing that separates Slowbro from other Pokemon trying to do its job because it lets Slowbro not take a turn using Slack Off to recover health. This also assists it in staving off chip damage from U-turn and entry hazards. So how do other Pokemon justify their usage over Slowbro? Other fun perks. Vaporeon provides Wish and cleric support; Vileplume is broken and can be EVed to manage both kinds of attackers; Palossand sets Stealth Rock and beats Xatu. At the end of the day, it is pretty rough to compare other Pokemon to Slowbro because of how versatile it is; I only looked at it serving as a defensive pivot, while we all know Slowbro can be a bulky wincon or a wallbreaker of sorts with Assault Vest. The point here was essentially to show that Slowbro isn't suffocating the viability of other Pokemon to the depths of E-ranks; if you need more Water-type examples, see: Seismitoad, Slowking, and Blastoise.

2) "Slowbro is too versatile." This should never be an argument you use for banning something imo; versatility is great and all, but a Pokemon not being versatile doesn't make it bad, and vice versa. This isn't me trying to downplay Slowbro's versatility at all; rather, I want to establish how it's a shaky ground to base an argument of brokenness or unhealthiness on. We can easily view certain Pokemon in our tier that are relatively one-dimensional, yet still retain great viability: Passimian, Sceptile, Sneasel, Xatu, Vanilluxe, et cetera. The list goes on. What this usually boils down to is how effective the Pokemon is at its one job: Passimian is arguably the best revenge killer in the tier; Sceptile and Vanilluxe are two of the best wallbreakers in the tier; Xatu is dumb; and Sneasel is the best Pursuit trapper we have while also being serviceable as a wallbreaker. So what does Slowbro's immense versatility mean then if it doesn't make it broken? Well, like the OP states, it means Slowbro can super customizable and is able to adapt to really any meta it needs to. Slowbro is constantly able to tailor its movesets and items to whatever the meta (or team) needs from it. Its versatility also makes it at times difficult to predict (Assault Vest Slowbro is usually pretty easy to read from team preview, but then deciphering through all of its potential defensive sets is obnoxious). You could be playing your Vaporeon as though the opposing Slowbro is just some standard defensive variant, but then you get hit by Block and bop; there goes Vaporeon. At the end of the day, the important thing to address imo is whether or not any of Slowbro's sets are overwhelming on their own (or whether the mass versatility makes it too difficult to play against Slowbro due to its unpredictability, which I do not feel is the case at all). I can't really say Slowbro is all that hard to manage on paper, although in battle it can prove burdensome in some regards. Although on a downward trend, its Assault Vest set is a bitch to switch into given Slowbro's coverage options being super diverse, while its bulky Calm Mind sets can get out of hand if given the right opportunity. I personally feel playing around Slowbro essentially boils down to two things: firstly, can you scout its set from team preview or the early-game, and secondly, can you scout its moves (and predict properly against them)? Like I said Calm Mind sets can get tricky if you can't overpower it before it blasts your Pokemon back (Rest variants can be especially obnoxious), although it usually takes some pretty ideal scenarios for these variants to outright beat a team on their own.

3) "Slowbro hinders the viability of too many other Pokemon." This was an argument from the Sneasel suspect test (maybe even both of them, I can't recall lol), and I want to say it was decided to not be a good argument back then? Not going to check because #lazy, but the idea here that a top-tier Pokemon can limit the potential of other Pokemon and is thus unfair is a tad ridiculous. There are so many other reasons Pokemon like Klinklang, Hitmonlee, and Archeops sorta just suck; it's a combination of being outclassed and a multitude of Pokemon checking them. This whole argument of "Slowbro checking too many Pokemon" is not selling me either. It's a bulky Water-type; I would hope it can beat Ground-types like Rhydon and Steelix! The problem with this argument is generally that you can tailor it to really any good Pokemon: "Passimian should be banned because it checks every Dark-type Pokemon in the tier and makes other Fighting-types so much worse". I totally get this is oversimplifying things, but the general message behind that argument is a fair comparison imo; you're looking at a great Pokemon and questioning its placement in the tier because it makes a large list of other Pokemon worse. I'm not too sure how to expand further on this. I guess you could argue Slowbro does this to a different extreme?

I think Slowbro's effect on the metagame has been pretty negative for a long time because it checks too much shit, to be frank. Itemless, it checks so many physical attackers like Passimian, Medicham, Rhydon, Hitmonlee, Aerodactyl, Hariyama, Klinklang, Piloswine, Archeops (the list goes on) just with Regenerator, Slack Off, and bulk alone. Then you add in items like Assault Vest and Colbur Berry and you suddenly check all the mons above + Spex Diancie and many of the Fire- types in NU as well as stuff like Z-Celebrate Vaporeon (which is literally only bad because Slowbro exists).

My problem with this list is that most of these Pokemon aren't just bad because Slowbro is in the tier and they're all Pokemon one would expect Slowbro to check just given its typing and defenses alone. Hitmonlee, Hariyama, Klinklang, and Piloswine have all been suffering meta-related trends for a good time now, with the former three's offensive capabilities being shafted by yes Slowbro, but also other fat Water-types and, especially in Hitmonlee's case, the prominence of Rotom, preventing easy use of its Fighting-type moves. Piloswine is in general just in a bad spot because its a bad Stealth Rock setter, not because Slowbro wails on it. The last sentence in the quote also seems a bit too emotion-laden imo; Z-Celebrate Vaporeon is certainly not just bad only because of Slowbro. It's bad because it has negligible early- and mid-game presence, it gets a grand one time of setting up, it loses to the three best fat Water-types (Slowbro you already mentioned; AV King can Dragon Tail it out while defensive Vaporeon just Toxic stalls it). Something I feel that needs to be kept in mind is that Slowbro can't check the large list of Pokemon you seem to be thinking about all at once; if it goes Assault Vest, then physical attackers can actually break through it much more successfully, while if it goes physically defensive, then it's super reliant on carrying Calm Mind AND getting a boost to check stuff like Choice Specs Diancie and Grassium Z Delphox.

I guess I made my statements as to why I don't think Slowbro is ban-worthy in those three paragraphs lol.. essentially though I don't believe Slowbro's punishing usage of other Pokemon that perform similar jobs to it to the extent some seem to think, and I believe its versatility to be fairly telegraphed and to have counterplay (I hate BlockBro with a fiery passion though. It has countermeasures too don't get me wrong, but it's probably the most punishing of any of its sets). At the end of the day though, this is also a super weird suspect test in that we don't really have experience with a metagame that lacks Slowbro, making it super difficult to judge whether or not Slowbro is in fact unhealthy. This is a huge shot in the dark, and I don't know how it'll end up should pink lad leave us (altho UU is gonna steal it anyway so meh). Hopefully we can get some roomtours with Slowbro banned going so that we can get some glimpse into it, but until an actual meta develops without Slowbro, we won't really know the ramifications of being without it.

tl;dr: slowbro aint restricting or overcentralizing and idrk if we can say its unhealthy because we dont know a meta without it

EDIT: ok kay talked with me over Discord, and now Slowbro seems more centralizing than I once thought. idk what my opinion is now, but I do continue to tread the line between ban and no ban.

 

[ILoveMilk]

In the hopes of sparking some discussion about this suspect, I'm just gonna drop my thoughts here. I'm pretty close to reqs right now and I think this laddering experience has solidified my opinion on Slowbro.

In my experience Slowbro is one of the most versatile mons NU currently has, being able to adapt to every metagame trend since forever. However I feel that the metagame itself has adapted around Slowbro where every Slowbro set is naturally checked by a well-built team (with the exception of block bro in certain cases). It's pivot set let's in a plethora of special attackers and it's AV set sacrifices bulk in favor of offensive pressure lessening it's ability to check the mons that it's pivot set can. Every well built team should be able to have an out to each bro set without going out of its way to do so.
There's an argument to be had that Slowbro's warping the metagame around it, but every tier has a Mon like that, with Lando in OU and Mienfoo in LC. I think Slowbro hasn't really placed the tier in a chokehold imo and I feel by banning it the tier becomes more unhealthy than with it, as Slowbro can keep in check alot of extremely threatening mons.
Laddering has only furthered my belief that Slowbro isn't banworthy, while laddering I've never felt like Slowbro is a Mon that just dismantles my team nor is my team suboptimal because I need to effectively check Slowbro. Anyways that's just my 2 cents. I'd l love to see some different opinions as well , I'll probably drop the team I used once I get reqs. As a side note please lower games required to 30 or 35, NU doesn't have the most active ladder.

also use Uber code Billw1319ue for 15$ off your first ride.

edit: some people have been asking for my team so might as well post https://pokepast.es/9fc3a0436e0d09bb

 

[blank]

what has recently changed to suddenly make slowbro suspect worthy? only thing i can think of is the block + cm set, but that set is just annoying tbh. if anything, heliolisk and alolan exeggutor becoming so good (among other things) have made things somewhat harder for slowbro.

personally, i think this pokemon is really overcentralizing. it has a ton of viable sets and it checks a bunch of stuff and it has a lot of longevity and all that. it's clearly a level above the rest of the pokemon in the tier, but i don't think it is banworthy. slowbro isn't something that's hard to deal with per say. by this i mean it simply isn't a threat that causes serious strain in battle or in builder. unless i really goof up in battle or i am using a really garbage team, i'm never sitting there like "wow i just lose to slowbro and there's nothing i could do about it unless i had one of a few pokemon." can it be annoying? yeah. can it be threatening? for sure. though at the end of the day, virtually every versatile top tier pokemon can be these things. the question we must actually ask is whether this is too much to deal with.

given that not much has significantly changed to suddenly make slowbro broken, i think it's clear that the tier has adapted to this pokemon and that it is no longer banworthy. i do think timing is important with suspect tests: if slowbro were to be suspected early into the tier, it would 100% make sense to ban it, but now? i think there's a reasonable argument to be made that the removal of slowbro from the tier would basically flip NU on its head. the tier is fairly stable as-is, so why change the status quo? people have been dealing with it fine for months and months now, so why go out of the way to destabilize the tier when you really don't need to?

 

[Rabia]

Hello. I come from uu which will explain why you're asking yourself who tf this guy is. I got reqs despite going 20-1 and then losing 9 games in a row in the most tilted moment of my life. Since I come from uu I look at slowbro as a very useful bulky pivot that is A tier in vr and should be uu. Now I come down to uu and here slowbro still is. I initially wanted to ban slowbro but honestly I only took a massive L to slowbro once and that was versus some stall team and it was cm block rest. Although its not "broken" I think it completely invalidates stall and it would if more people used block slowbro. Like stall in nu really cant deal with cm z move block slowbro very well without sacrificing other good matchups. Again my knowledge of this tier is very limited but I will most likely chill and dance between keep nu and ban until the vote comes around. UU is taking this mon in 3 months so if its kept nu enjoy the time you have.

just gonna pop my reqs in here so i dont lose them

View attachment 142631

Alright so I want to respond to this post because I genuinely believe it is presenting some misinformation about the stall matchup and just how bad Slowbro is for it. So I played stall for almost the entirety of getting requirements; I think my team got broken a grand total of 2 times, one of those games because of really bad luck on my end. I certainly faced Slowbro several times on the ladder, and never once did I feel it was some overbearing presence. I'm gonna focus on BlockBro for this post because that seems to be the one you're talking about.

So the reason BlockBro doesn't invalidate stall is because most stall teams carry Pyukumuku, and from my experience the best Pyukumuku set consists of Toxic / Recover / Spite / Rest. This beats any BlockBro variation, since you win the PP war every time thanks to Spite and can remove status from Toxic via Rest. If you're up against Calm Mind BlockBro, well I don't see how you lose that matchup. BlockBro in general is probably the most niche set of all because while in theory it's super busted and can trap any fat Pokemon it wants, it rarely works out like that in practice. It's generally pretty easy to figure out what its set is if it's a Block variation, and from there most teams should have a solid way of beating it. In general, I'm not a huge fan of BlockBro, as Heliolisk bops it real easily assuming its Calm Mind (and I have never seen Toxic + Block in NU, although I'm sure it's good).

so ya pyuku taps blockbro really effectively; the stall matchup is super easy versus any Slowbro variant

E: ok i literally forgot xatu is a mon and stops block entirely lol. and like I said: it's p easy to figure out what Slowbro variant you're up against from team preview, allowing you to not risk bro being AV and just go in with Xatu or Pyuku vs it instead of having to risk Audino. and yea countertrapping Slowbro is cute

 

[Ren-chon]

I can understand why Slowbro is suspect worthy, but I really cant figure out why it should be banned in the first place. Rabia covered most of the points already, but I feel like voicing some words as well. First of all, I never understood just how can Slowbro be overcentralizing. P-Don is overcentralizing. GSC Lax is overcentrailizing. Slowbro? No way. While it has a lot of traits that justify it being in a lot of teams, it doesnt make the meta revolve around it. One argument Ive seen some people use is that Bro pretty much kills the viability of other water-types, specially bulky ones. Yeah... No. Vaporeon sees use, Slowking sees use, Toise sees use, they just have different niches than Slowbro, but are still more than viable in the current meta. And thats not to talk about other bulky pivots, such as Vileplume, Xatu, Druddigon, Incineroar, and tons others. They all still see a lot of use (heck, Xatu and Incineroar are actually being used more in snake than him) even with Slowbro being the true king of its role. That alone shows that its not overcentralizing, as you do have other options for the same role who are just as viable as him. Its still good as fuck, dont get me wrong, but in my opinion it looks more like a Heatran or Landorus-T to our tier, in the sense its very very good but not even close to being broken.

Second, the meta has adapted. Eggy-A, Guzzlord, Sceptile, Heliolisk, Toxic Drud, Vikavolt, Toxic Xatu, are all mons that can beat it and are actually seeing more and more use lately while still being very damn good even without Bro (could even make a case for Torterra as well but Scald is a thing unfortunately). Hell, Slowbro loses to all the S-Rank mons and even in the A-Ranks a LOT of them can win in a 1v1 or straight up ignore Slowbro is a thing for a good chunk of the game (see U-Turn Pass and Toxic Lix). When the theorically best 'mons in the meta can all beat the suspect test reliably I kinda start doubting how broken it actually is. And even for the things it does beat, most of the other water-types and bulky pivots (who in theory should compete with Slowbro for a spot in a team) do as well: Fight-types, Ground-types, Fire-types, the list goes on. Jesus, Slowbro actually does considerably worse with Fire-types since the most common one, Magmortar, can beat it easily if not AV and is weak to Incineroars secondary STAB. My point with this paragraph is that Slowbro is nowhere near as broken as it used to be in, for example, Emboars meta or even just before Heliolisks as we have a ton more stuff that can directly beat it or fulfill its role in a team. In this sense, I both agree and disagree with what Starry said. Disagree because things actually did change to better handle Slowbro, but agree because it was a good while ago and ever since then the meta stabilized. So in fact, Slowbro is actually way less suspect worthy nowadays than it was in past metas.

All in all, Im very much on the no ban side. While being a big presence in the current meta and without a doubt one of the best mons, its far from being broken. A mix of having other options for its role in a team while not straight up making it worse and the meta having adapted to its dominance means that, at least in my opinion, Slowbro is far from broken.

 

[Funbot28]

Got me some reqs and gonna leave some thoughts after going through the suspect ladder. While I had a certain shaky opinion going into the suspect believing that Slowbro is too much of defensive presence to remain in the metagame (an opinion that I could have been swayed upon), I had reassured my initial thoughts throughout the suspect believing that Slowbro is too much for the tier. Regenerator is the main culprit here as any form of chip damage a player would like to impose towards an opposing Slowbro is completely nullified due to this balanced ability. This would not be so much of an issue if Slowbro would not be able to capitalize on this trait, however being able to run a myrad of defensive sets such as Toxic Pivot, CM + Z-Move, RegenVest, and even the cancer known as BlockBro, Slowbro can be put an a position in completely oppressing the entierity of an opposing team mainly thanks its ability to reward passive play. An opponent if forced to always play different around an opposing Bro due to how well it can coutneract certain threats without boosting moves, enabling the Bro user to take advantage of the wasted turns needing to setup or use a status move to potentially break through Slowbro. No other defensive mon achieves this level of proactive choke holding like Slowbro does and has been an issue that has been plaguing the NU metagame ever since its inception imo.

Knowing this, I believe that a vote to ban Slowbro is the correct decision to encourage a less overcentralized metagame.

 

[Emblema de Fuego]

I do not know well since when Slowbro is NU, but for more than a year I have been playing and Slowbro has never really been a problem.
Several other Pokémon suspect tests have been made, while Slowbro has not been paid attention. Sneasel x2, Emboar, Venusaur, Gigalith, only this year.
All because it does not really abuse.
As already said, there are hundreds of methods to deal with. And thanks to the Z movement, many physical sweepers can defeat it.
I will vote no ban.
Before leaving, I am going to say something that is probably very questioned, but I have to say it:

Hide

It seems to me that Comfey is unhealthy to the tier. While their attacks are weak and manageable for many pokemon that are not even counters, but well played with the proper suport, you can secure wins. . Also this pokemon can not be revenge killer, only counter. It's not that it's the big abuse, but it forces to prepare against it or it sweeps your team completely. Also, it is not that difficult to weaken many of her counters with the rest of your team. It is not a place to debate this, but I had to say it.

 

[Kiyo]

I do not know well since when Slowbro is NU, but for more than a year I have been playing and Slowbro has never really been a problem.
Several other Pokémon suspect tests have been made, while Slowbro has not been paid attention. Sneasel x2, Emboar, Venusaur, Gigalith, only this year.
All because it does not really abuse.
As already said, there are hundreds of methods to deal with. And thanks to the Z movement, many physical sweepers can defeat it.
I will vote no ban.
Before leaving, I am going to say something that is probably very questioned, but I have to say it:

Hide

It seems to me that Comfey is unhealthy to the tier. While their attacks are weak and manageable for many pokemon that are not even counters, but well played with the proper suport, you can secure wins. . Also this pokemon can not be revenge killer, only counter. It's not that it's the big abuse, but it forces to prepare against it or it sweeps your team completely. Also, it is not that difficult to weaken many of her counters with the rest of your team. It is not a place to debate this, but I had to say it.

You make a good point, but I think its important to keep in mind that its more likely that an offensive pokemon becomes a suspect than a defensive one. We quite often get volatile tier shifts such as Venusaur, Gigalith, Heliolisk that introduce new threats to our metagame that are very difficult to handle. I may be wrong, but it certainly feels like its more often offensive threats that are dropped into metagames than defensive ones and this only amplifies the problem.

Also you're right comfefe is broke

 

[Espeonage.]

wanna make a post on slowbro, im pro ban on this mon personally and idt theres been enough prob ban arguments, so im making an argument xd

first thing i wanna talk about is overcentralization, as i def feel thats the primary ban slowbro argument. i def feel the builds we see rn are generally p similar, usually brolix xatu type builds, and that def reflects in snake, as seen in the usage stats. stepping outside of just using standard stuff can honestly be v hard in this meta i feel and building w more creative stuff can honestly be a pain, altho it is def doable dont get me wrong. i def feel slowbros a huge factor for this, the pink dude walls an absolutely insane amount of stuff and outside of rockers, i dont really feel we say anything that actually gets stopped by slowbro; hitmonlee being the prime example of this, a mon that really should be fantastic but like its bad, and bro is the primary reason for that (theres other factors but bro is def the main one). also, i def think cm bros a major think u have to think abt in building, while not as big as say, heliolisk, there r def teams i build where i just realize my bro check loses to x bro set, ie vap losing to block, scept getting bopped by av, etc. teams need to be able to put good pressure on bro, bc it just cant be chipped down the same as most defensive mons due to reliable recovery and regen, which is why i feel slowbro has this effect that unless a pokemon is a rocker like rhydon and steelix are or has uturn like pass. i feel that like, bros oppurtunity cost is 0, but the reward from it is mad high, which is why it can be so easily slapped on a team. in terms of a meta after bro, i think we could see a rise in pokemon like aero and lee that were previously held back so much, some more diversity in team composition and structures, and i def think it could give room for some more creative building..

other thing i wanna talk about is simply bros effect in actual practice. now, idt theres ever gonna be a mu where bro is straight up useless, bc even if it isnt doing much offensively, its still got insane defensive utility, and is still gonna be a great switchin to pass, rhydon, delphox to an extent, etc. bro also has some mad versatility; cm z move (z future sight, z bug) is prob bros most consistent and effective set and is a scary ass sweeper that is honestly one of the best and most splashable wincons in the tier and can also sorta punch holes and shit in the early game, cm block isnt something id use personally and more of a cteam thing i feel, but it can be crazy in some mus and def invalidates some bro checks like vap and audino, av, while alot of ppl have started hating on it i feel, is always a threat, makes bro a better switchin to things like magmortar and diancie, and is just a great semi-breaker, and the classic defensive tox set is still reasonably good and v reliable. i think my problem w all these sets is that theyre all dealt w in diff manners, offensive checks like whims, scept and lisk are great vs the block and tox set, but are vunerable to z moves like z future sight, and fire blast, defensive checks like audino and vap are great vs av and fairly good vs tox and cm z move altho they do have things to fear from them, but if u face block, youre fucked. the only real reliable checks end up being like bu scrafty, sd null which is kinda bad, av king altho that cant do that much back besides dtail, and to an extent av bro. and with all that, slowbro still has great defensive utility, and regen and scald which are dumb lol.

the last point i wanna touch upon goes back to what i was saying about overcentrilization and the builds in this tier being somewhat stale, and thats whether slowbros actually the problem w the tier, which i feel is a sentiment alot of ppl have, and to an extent, i agree. idt theres an argument to be made that slowbro is the single most threatening pokemon in the builder, bc its not, roar, lisk and ice cream are all w/o a doubt harder threats to prep for. also like, slowbros role as a fighting check and shit is def healthy, and while an argument could be made that phys def jelli and slowking could sorta fill that void w/o slowbro, theyre def not as effective. i think alot of ppl think lisk is more suspect worthy as well, and i can def see the reason for it bc that mons just mad good, volting out on everything and bopping all the elec immunes, but at the same time, i feel like slowbro is more problematic just bc of how it prevents so many mons from being good, can have some good breaking potential while cm sets are great sweepers, whereas lisk i feel is more one dimensional, albeit prob better at that role than slowbro is at any role. i do honestly feel like a slowbro test has been a long time coming and while now feels as if its a weird time to test it, i def think the council was right to look at slowbro.

also just wanna include some snake replays to help demonstrate my points:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-393987 kush vs hantuski, here bro can switchin to pass consistenly and bopped vap w z future sight, def the game that put this set on the map
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-404845 rozes vs hantuski, rozes is reliant on blastoise to beat bro but hes block so bro basically just wins lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-396340 kush vs nintendi, bro didnt put in too much work here but like, this replay still shows regen being dumb lol
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-398068 waters vs rodri, slowbro couldnt put in too much work in this mu bc rodri straight up got 6-0d by scept, but like if he didnt get bopped by scept so hard, slowbro prob wouldve put in some mad work
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-394659 lax vs flcl, lax's slowbro is basically just a huge annoyance for flcl this game
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-392747 hootie vs waters, both slowbros here put in alot of work
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-393406 rw vs elodin, again, rws slowbro put in some big work
one thing i also wanna note here after watching thru these snake games is how a lot of mons run toxic, primarily for slowbro, think vap, lix, steelvally, xatu.

so ye sry if this felt a bit rambly, tried to keep this p structured but its hard lol, ty to anyone who read all through it, and go ban slowbro

 

[GW]

Hey guys! I just wanted to take this time in order to voice my own opinion about slowbro :)! I got reqs last week, and after laddering and seeing other posts, I have determined that slowbro is not banworthy.

First of all, the meta has already heavily adapted around it. With increased usage of alolan exeggutor (Someone plz use him in snake finals :( ) and helioisk, as well as the multitude of taunt users that can shut down most toxic slowbros, playing around slowbro seems more comfortable and easier than before. Despite regenerator being an annoying ability, there are enough offensive threats and taunters on bulkier teams to where pressuring it in the end is annoying, but definitely not impossible.

Also, slowbro, without its block set, does not even seem that overly centralizing or impossible to prep for in the teambuilder. People are even sometimes using bulk up z move passimian if their team already has plenty of speed control to lure in slowbro, which does not even necessarily hinder passimian's ability to do its normal job in general. The block set, even though it is very annoying, can only fit scald as an attacking move, since it needs rest in order to effectively pp stall the opp whatsoever after trapping them, meaning that monsters such as helioisk, vanilluxe, and helioisk can get a near infinite amount of switch ins vs it. The assault vest set gets worn down a lot easier, whereas most other sets are super vulnerable to hazard stacking / toxic mons such as seismatoad and audino.

Also, to reiterate one of my earlier points, which block slowbro, which is definitely the set that most people complain about, it can actually reward smart playing instead of mindless toxic spamming and wish spam as well. For example, with vaporeon, it allows good players to recognize that it could be block and go hard into their wallbreak that can counter slowbro, such as guzzlord or vanilluxe as appropriate. Also, because of all the taunt users on stall, from what I have personally seen and heard, this archetype does not actually get unhealthily beat down by block slowbro as much as it could in theory. S/o Rabia for testing this out on the suspect ladder, you definitely proved a lot with that argument :)! This pokemon also makes passimian healthier in the metagame (along with medicham), since it gives a good reliable check to both of those.

In conclusion, due to the amount of counterplay and teambuilding skills that can be used to outmanuever this pink regenerator, I will be voting Do Not Ban.

 

[Finchinator]

Before I go on with my post, I would like to bring you some words from our delightful tier leaders:

I feel this test is of the utmost importance to the SM NU metagame; currently, we stand at a bit of a crossroads with regards to metagame state. On the one hand, if Slowbro remains in the tier, then there is a good chance that the way NU is played, what trends are, and what is generally seen as "good" or "bad" will largely stay the same. This assertion implies a lack of any major usage shake-ups that add or remove a vital piece to the puzzle over the next year this tier shall exist as a main generation metagame. On the other hand, banning Slowbro would remove a noteworthy piece of current SM NU's identity; if this is a departure from the norm that is for the better or the worse is yet to be determined. I would say that it is something that individuals should come to a personal conclusion about to help determine their stance on Slowbro.

This suspect I have been more conflicted about than any other past suspect in NU, perhaps why I took this long to chime in with my opinion as I only reached an ultimate conclusion tonight after I finished my reqs. I can totally understand anyone voting on either side, but I will personally be voting ban. Why? I think that any Pokemon with a single broken element, even if it is not frequented or minimal, is broken itself unless that element wants to be handled. And for me, Block Slowbro is broken. Honestly, CM + Block or just the general CM + Rest Slowbro is ridiculous. I will get into this a bit latter with a more drawn out argument, but I just want to touch on Slowbro in general a bit before I go on.

In my opinion, the argument that Slowbro's presence is a "negative" on the metagame or "restricts" building/gameplay is pretty lacking. I do not consider this to be a valid argument and I find the standard Colbur Toxic and AV sets to be handled sufficiently. AV is actually quite hard to switch into for offense/bulky-offense, for sure, but I do not think it is entirely broken so much as insanely good and quite annoying, especially thanks to Regenerator. Anyway, I cannot see how people can relate this individual opinion on the impact of a Pokemon to anything definitive, let alone a coherent pro-ban argument. The real pro-ban argument stems from the following set, in my opinion:

Slowbro @ Waterium Z / Normalium Z / Colbur Berry
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Block / Slack Off
- Rest

Block in itself is a pretty uncompetitive move. We all know what the tiering history with regards to trapping has been in recent years. It is very true that Block is not an ability like the main controversial aspects of trapping have been tied to, but seeing as Slowbro is such an effective and consistent defensive presence, the burden of actually having the time and opportunity to click Block effectively is far less noteworthy than on other Pokemon that may learn it or attempt to make use of sets with it (oftentimes, those are misguided attempts at innovation or simply timely gimmicks for specific opponents/structures at best). I think that the best way to really prove how ridiculous this can be is to go through common counterplay to Slowbro, specifically CM variants, and then explain how Block/Rest really eliminates a lot of those and oftentimes eliminates crucial team members from the equation of an opposing team without any real cost besides that one moveslot on Slowbro. Oh and before I go on, Normalium Z is for Z-Block, which also gives +1 Defense -- it's pretty cool, tbh. Anyway...

Ways to handle CM Slowbro/initial switch-ins to Slowbro:

Offensively:

• Heliolisk (oftentimes safe, especially earlier on, but does not like taking a hit from AV, can die to Z-Future Sight/Psyshock, and Toxic can chip away at it, especially if paired with Pursuit Sneasel to assure a KO later on)
• Sceptile (can legit be OHKOd by AV, 100% of the time if SR is up, but otherwise is generally safe the first time around)
• Vanilluxe (only Specs though seeing as otherwise it can lose 1v1 to CM sets if they CM as you switch in and also it does not last nearly as long as Slowbro does)
• Guzzlord (barely being used anymore, but this is about as good and "durable" as it gets with regards to offensive counterplay)
• Dhelmise (fears Scald burn and AV a ton, but can break through it with offensive force without much issue)
• Vikavolt (semi-durable as well because Roost, but AV still troubles it. one of the best answers to PDef though)
• Exeggutor-Alola (another good Pokemon that can nuke the shit out of it)

Defensively/through status

• Toxic Slowbro (yea, it seems silly, but this is legit the most common initial switch-in to Slowbro in the metagame right now and it gets trapped as shit and essentially leads to an auto-loss in most games when CM + Block + Rest is used and there's no Water immune, Dhelmise, or Z Torterra)
• Toxic Xatu (ok, this one isn't trapped, but it fails to thwart attempts at a sweep and oftentimes tries to Roost up on CMs, so it will be in for a rude awakening in that situation)
• Slowking (this thing isn't too common right now, but the most common sets are AV and Toxic mixed def, both come in to scout Slowbro when used, and both get trapped and set up on easily enough)
• Vaporeon (seemingly safe, drawback free pivot to a passive Pokemon like Slowbro, especially if you have counters to normal CM sets or Toxic, but it leads to you getting PP stalled out, Slowbro boosting to +6, and then sweeping your team, which is especially problematic seeing how common Vaporeon balance is getting rn)
• BU Scrafty (turn 49 lmao)
• Toxic Druddigon (a lot of them have Dragon Tail, but it's not a staple, as seen by Eternally's semifinals team for example, and I think Protect + Leftovers is personally better (and even Toxic + Glare b/c Glare is amazing), but yea this gets trapped as it tries to Toxic and set-up on)
• Toxic Blastoise (if it tried to Spin or status you, it just gets trapped, set up on, and gg'd)
• Other miscellaneous shit like Ferroseed, Miltank, Toxic/Knock Alolan Sandslash, Toxic Golbat, Quagsire, Altaria, etc. that just gets trapped and set-up on, too

The fact of the matter is that the Block set systematically takes almost all of the common defensive counterplay, U-turn Xatu/DTail Druddigon/Parting Shot Steelvally/SR+Refresh (more PP) Seismitoad aside, and turns it into an almost surely won game by clicking Block, setting up in its face, resting off the normal counterplay to Slowbro (tends to be Toxic), and then winning the game if there is no specific Water immune or Dhelmise present. It is literally this simple and it is grossly uncompetiitve. Does the tier have counterplay? Yes, it has various forms of offensive counterplay and while the defensive/chipping means are eliminated through rest, the ones with U-turn/Parting Shot/phasing can still manage it in the short term, especially if paired with offensive counterplay listed above, but that does not make this variant of Slowbro even borderline manageable. You cannot simply remove defensive counterplay from a Pokemon, especially when a majority of the offensive answers are not durable/can die to the super common AV variant, the Pokemon (Slowbro) is literally atop the tiers usage so it cannot be overlooked despite the set not being its most common one, and the most common direct response to Slowbro is to try and Toxic it and minimize offensive threats taking a crippling hit/burn early on in games. Block Slowbro (and CM Rest alone to a much less consistent extent) is not competitive in the metagame due to how many games it just outright takes over, even if it is just eliminating one Pokemon and then getting cockblocked by a Dhelmise or Heliolisk afterward. This should not be allowed in the metagame. I honestly was perfectly fine with Slowbro being in the tier until I started thinking about, using, and facing the Block set, especially on this suspect ladder and also wrt Rozes v. Suki in Snake. I just don't think that it's ok to let this remain in the metagame, even if the more common sets are largely healthy and maybe beneficial for the tier in my eyes. A metagame can always react to things getting banned, even if it means banning or retesting other things if other Pokemon in the tier cannot fill its void (Slowking will not be nearly as good, even if it will see a rise in usage I am sure). A metagame cannot consistently react to broken things kept within the tier though as otherwise they would not be broken to begin with. Block Slowbro is broken. I will be voting to ban Slowbro.

 

[Emblema de Fuego]

The first time I suffered the Block set I thought how broken it is. But then I realized that there are many pokemon that can do that, and that what is broken is not Slowbro, but the Block move in combination with a particular set in addition to a specific pokemon, yes it is.

Let's see the most notable example currently based on this type of set, a team that made BanDisnDatnMe
Here the link: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...o-worst-lets-be-machiavellian-friends-%E2%9D% 9E-peaked-7-1978.3641875 /
All those who are more than agree that Slowbro is abusive, it seems that they are against this evil set.
I also think that Block should be banned in combination with certain Pokémon, as in this case Slowbro.
Let's look at this replay that I publish espeonage:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7nu-404845 rozes vs hantuski, rozes is reliant on blastoise to beat bro but hes block so bro basically just wins lol

This same work could be done by Slowking with the same set. To abuse the Block movement, it is not necessary that this Slowbro, the same Slowking can work perfectly to make sure to exterminate certain passive things.

Also Pyukumuku can do something similar with Spite, but if Block is baned, would castrate it. I prefer that the combination of Block + Slowbro be banned than the complete movement (a complex ban).
Although I will vote in favor of the no ban, if I see the set as abusive, but as I said, it's not Slowbro's fault.

 

[Finchinator]

The suspect is a Slowbro suspect. While it may be true that the combination of Block and Slowbro are broken, the fact that Slowbro learns and viably uses Block makes Slowbro broken. Smogon does not ban the combination of move+Pokemon in normal contexts, let alone that of a modern generation suspect. If you feel that Block Slowbro is banworthy, you should vote ban. If you feel that Slowbro, given everything it has at its disposal, all of its pros, and all of its cons, is not banworthy, then you should not vote ban. It should not be more complex, there should not be a more specific ruling/alternative, and this is simply how the tiering policy works. For more specific information on the tiering policy we follow, feel free to read the framework here.

 

[Kiyo]

kay Tangelo and I did a podcast but i fucked up the audio (again) so i wanted to at least touch on some points we made rather than let it all get lost.

1. The metagame has adapted to Slowbro.

At first glance I can see this being a point that shuts down the Ban argument, if we're clearly doing alright against Slowbro then what's the big deal? I think its logical to look at it this way, don't go looking for a problem that isn't there. But there is a problem there, even if you do need to dig deeper than surface level to find it. Let's take a point I think we can all agree on: everything in S or A ranks on the VR is either: slowbro, beats slowbro, commonly runs toxic (effectively giving it an out to some slowbro), or offers utility such as stealth rock. If Slowbro is still S rank given those conditions I think that says a lot more about how good Slowbro really is, than how well the metagame has adapted.

2. Slowbro isn't broken.

I think theres a couple of ways to tackle this point from the ban perspective.

Finch makes a good case and lays out specifically why block slowbro is allegedly broken. If you were convinced by Finch's post you should probably vote ban, if you're into the whole following smogon tiering policy thing. (part of me thinks doing so might be doing undesirable things to our metas, but that's a conversation for another thread I won't write).

Ok so if Block's not broken then Slowbro probably isn't broken, but I think its dishonest to say it doesn't have a huge effect on the metagame, and here's why:

Slowbro is restrictive to teambuilding and it warps the metagame in potentially unhealthy ways to deal with it. Offense cannot effectively break through defensive archetypes in this metagame due to slowbro. Offense relies on effective double switching and chipping checks and counters to function. When a pokemon with one of the best defensive typing in the tier has 95/110/80 defensive stats and regenerator, an insane movepool with 100 base spa to back it up, and said pokemon is a free scout on basically the entire metagame it becomes a little ridiculous. I think one of the biggest reasons our pool of scarfers is so low is because of slowbro. A choice scarf user essentially has to have u turn or be able to ohko bro to be viable, and nothing ohkos or does even significant damage after a regen pivot so the slowbro user just goes to their appropriate check. I can go down this rabbit hole all day and tell you that I think Xatu is only S rank this generation because of the need to run toxic on everything to kill slowbro, i find it incredibly hard to believe that when the tier has MORE rockers that beat xatu than it did last gen, that the hazard preventing aspect of it is what makes it so good. Xatu blocks hazards sure, but it also blocks toxic, which unfortunately is the way a lot of things in the tier are forced to do damage. Also for those of you wondering if slowking would just replace slowbro and we'd be in the same spot. No Slowking wouldn't just do the same things as bro if it goes, there's a reason why slowbro has always been ranked higher than slowking and has typically been in a higher tier all generation. it cannot function as a special and physical pivot at the same time, is noticeably weaker on the defensive side even when invested (to the point that things can actually 2hko it after rocks and do net damage after regen), and it can get pursuit trapped more easily.

I missed a lot of shit that hopefully Kay will cover, cuz i just wanted to be done with this

 

[kay]

I even told him to check to see if it was picking us up before it started. But yeah thankfully even tho we can't respond in podcast form we can still post here with our thoughts to sum up the points covered in the podcast. Kiyo's post made up a large bulk of the conversation we had so I'll mostly refrain from covering the points he covered. Rather I'd like to take a second to respond to some of the posts here and how their reasoning really doesn't hold up to me when you look at it closer.

So first off let me just get this answered right away: Why suspect slowbro now. And I think that's a pretty fair question to ask given we've only seen meta trends that might "hurt" slowbro, things like Eggy-a and Heliolisk being examples. To answer this lets look back at the suspects we've had to have before this point to get to where we are now. Things like Cofag, Emboar, and Barb were clear examples of things we needed to get rid of first back when the tier was still in its earlier stages, and more recently things like Gigalith and Venusaur dropped from RU and had to be suspected due to the unhealthy metagame they made for themselves while they were here. There was always just something more pressing in the metagame to take care of which has led us to always postponing this needed suspect. But now we find ourselves in a very stable meta where we can look at this long overdo mon and see what the community thinks of it.

One really bad point I've been seeing people make is how Slowbro doesn't over centralize because of the amount of water types and other defensive walls we have in the metagame. People have cited things like Vap/Blastoise as other viable waters and things like Plume and Palo as defensive walls. But I think the people who keep repeating that are greatly mistaken about what people mean when they say bro is keeping things out of the meta. Its not the other walls its forcing out, its other offensive mons. Right now in NU offensive pokemon have to be able to either get past bro using coverage or a momentum move to be good, and if you can't then you have no chance at being viable. I wont touch too much into detail as its kind of a self evident point, but if you look at the entire VR you'll see this in action. Everything offensive thats high on the VR either directly will deal with bro, or have ways around it. The farther down you look the less things deal with bro. It makes it so every single mon in the tier has to answer to it or not be viable which chokes out the metagame, and its what people mean when they call it over centralizing. It also limits just how much the meta can actually change. If every mon has to be paired up by its ability to get past bro, it means that things that might otherwise be good in the meta no longer can be good by virtue of not having a way around bro. It directly limits our tiers ability to grow and adapt to other threats and meta changes.

I think Kiyo just about covered a lot of what I wanted to say in small parts, so I'll just end this post by explaining what Slowbro has actually done to our metagame. Right now we're in a spot where running hard offense really isnt a good idea. Offense by nature strives to chip and break away at teams until you can clean, and because bro and all its regen glory can't be chipped in a reasonable amount of time, we're seeing all these teams go for very fat and longevity focused builds because that's how you'll most easily deal with it. Spam toxic and aim to not lose to it long enough to where you can put yourself in a situation to win with your 1-2 wall breakers over a long grind. And things like Heliolisk, Xatu, and Incineroar thrive in these kinds of slow metas. These things that are so overbearing in our tier are directly because the meta is fixed to a point where they can thrive thanks to Slowbros impact on our tier.

Slowbro is such an unhealthy and dominating force in our metagame, but because its been here for so long people have just gotten used to what it looks like being here and have just accepted that this is just how things are. I'd like if people when going into voting would read over both sides of the argument and vote with an open mind about the suspect and read both sides of the argument.

For those of you just scrolling down to see what I'm for without reading the post, I'm pro ban.

 

[etern]

Slowbro remains NU: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-6-voting.3643437/page-3#post-7953606

Feel free to discuss the general metagame and do not speculate any future retests.

 

[Slowbrosky]

Since I've started to become a bit more active, I've decided I'll put my two cents in on the matter.

As someone who voted ban somewhat skeptically, I'm not necessarily surprised at this result as I feel there was a pretty strong no ban sentiment this time around. I personally reached my conclusion based of of the idea of Bro's versatility allows it to beat any presumptive checks, and sets like Block Bro and Psychic-Z Future Sight (still under-utilized imo) just flat out being able to eliminate its best checks and force the opponent into basically an unwinable situation because Bro was very easily able to remove the only check to it or another mon on its team. However, I think the sentiment amongst many non-ban voters was that in a vacuum Bro isn't necessarily problem. From my understanding theres definitely been a general sentiment and diagnosis of the problem being a couple of mons in conjunction with Bro that make the prototypical balance and BO builds so hard to break for offense currently. Needless to say, and echoing Eternally, I don't think a suspect soon of any of these identified mons (Xatu, Comfey, Bro, Plume, Roar, etc) will solve the problem long term. Causing chaos in the post suspect meta won't do the tier any good. We should take the result as is and do our best to, no matter how ludicrous, to try and find ways to make the meta healthy in a method thats in our own hands.

Outside of this suspect, I think there are some pretty interesting developments going on with some mons that aren't used as often that maybe we should take a look at again. I think much of B-high C Rank could use a second look to see if we can optimize how were using them in the current meta to build around the balance teams rather than build into the problem. Even some UR mons might be worth taking a look at if it comes to that. I think there are certainly some gems from PU that we might be dismissing because of just a general lack of discussion, testing, and dialogue around them.

TLDR of Suspect: Despite the fact that I feel banning Slowbro may have solved part of the problem with the current health of NU teambuilding, as its clearly the glue that hold much of balance together, moving forward I think it would be better to see if offense can make any adaptions to the current meta, and down the road if its still a problem we should look at this question again. We should continue to test new mons to see if we can solve this problem.

Anyway, hope to be more active here in the future. See y'all soon.

 

[Rabia]

Slowbro @ Psychium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Slack Off
- Calm Mind

So with the test over, I'd like to bring to attention this Slowbro set. It isn't anything new by any means, but I think it's a really nice pick in the current metagame given the prominence of Heliolisk and as a result Vileplume (and any other Grass-type really, but Vileplume being so common really makes this a fun lure of sorts). It's sort of like Assault Vest in that it punishes traditional switch-ins effectively with its ability to nuke the hell out of them, although this set allows Slowbro to still capitalize on its great physical bulk.

https://pokepast.es/921c6da14fb73e53
Here is an example squad utilizing the set. It's a really fucking fat team, and I probably could've opted for a fat SD Incineroar to make up for it, but the team has been reasonably effective and is certainly usable enough. Unlike Block Slowbro, this set is as splashable as the typical Waterium Z pivot sets you'll see running around. You can probably run Toxic > Calm Mind, but nuking stuff with boosted Future Sight is fun.

 

[Hootie]

Locking this because a new stage of NU started and we're re-testing Mega Abomasnow! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-nu-stage-12-all-i-want-for-christmas-is-you.3643951/