Metagame np: NU Stage 11 - I'm A Star [SAWK is BANNED]

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Yeah I'm pretty confused as to why Special Zard is so damn popular right now seeing as how Pyroar pretty much outclasses it. They have the same Special Attack (109), but Pyroar has better Speed (Base 106 being superior to Base 100),and isn't almost completely walled by lanturn thanks to Hyper Voice (252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 152-179 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery),or at least isn't forced into a suboptimal HP Grass move just to beat it. Pyroar also doesn't force you to run a rapid spinner/defogger like Charizard does, as it can switch into rocks 5 times w/o damage, while Charizard can only switch in 3 times, assuming it doesn't take any damage, which in this tier is a big one, so you're likely to be 2HKO'd by rocks alone unless you're running Roost. The only reasons I would use special zard over pyroar is if I'm massivly Steelix weak, and even then I could go with physical Zard or Mantine, or for a sun team using solar power, which may or may not actually be good. The point is, players should at least consider using Pyroar before they're using Special Zard.
I mean yeah special Zard and Pyroar are comparable, but I don't really think one is less viable than the other. One big plus Zard has going for it is STAB Air Slash, allowing you to actually hit (and 2hko if LO) Hariyama, while Pyroar can really only hope to potentially cripple it with WoW. Zard also isn't really as walled by Lanturn as you said because you can run EQ over Focus Blast if need be. Another thing Zard has going for it is versatility. Your opponent won't always know set you're using since it has so many sets it can run, and Pyroar basically only has the standard LO/Specs set.
 
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Steelix @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse

So this was a set during XY and I think it's still really good now. Nobody expects Lix to hit as hard as this set does and it's really fun to surprise people thinking they can abuse Steelix' passivity. Losing Leftovers hurts but I'm sure the trade-off is worth it on some teams, since even with just HP investment Steelix' bulk is more than sufficient to check physical attackers.
 

Punchshroom

Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
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XenoTech N In other words, both Fire-types require different types of maintenance. Pyroar has great offensive stats, but is more easily hard countered and requires teammates to help deal with said counters; Charizard has set versatility (which leads to the opponent's uncertainty in sending out counters) and takes care of itself as far as coverage is concerned, but asks for solid hazard control in return.
 
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Omastar @ Rocky Helmet / Shuca Berry
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam / Icy Wind
- Toxic Spikes / Spikes
- Stealth Rock

Bulky Omastar has been a set that I've been testing a while on balanced teams as a glue and a hard switchin to most physical mons. With a sky high 125 defense, it plays sort of like a Carracosta with a Scald that actually does something, as well as having access to far more useful hazards. Especially with the rise of flying types as well as fast normals in Physical Zard, Chops, Kanga, and Tauros which otherwise outpace and give bulky offense / balance archetypes a lot of trouble, Omastar is able to hard stop all of them and capitalize with hazards. I definitely recommend using Rocky Helmet because it wears down a lot of the mons it checks really quickly and in tangent with a really strong scald racks up heavy damage, but shuca is useful since most of the mons you check cover you with Ground attacks. Ice Beam is preferred cause even uninvested it 2HKOes every significant grass mon in the tier, but Icy Wind can deter stuff from setting up on you. If you find the need to nail Lanturn necessary be my guest it'll 3HKO at worst.
I know others have said this already, but you really should be running leftovers on this set over the other two listed items, Icy Wind should be the primary coverage move choice, Spikes is more beneficial than Toxic Spikes in this metagame imo, and Swift Swim isn't a terrible option either if you're not insecure about taking a crit. Defensive Omastar should and will be the most consistent and effective Omastar set imo, it was a workhorse in BW2 RU and its a solid blanket check to a lot of the tiers threats with the addition of dual-entry hazards.

Steelix @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse

So this was a set during XY and I think it's still really good now. Nobody expects Lix to hit as hard as this set does and it's really fun to surprise people thinking they can abuse Steelix' passivity. Losing Leftovers hurts but I'm sure the trade-off is worth it on some teams, since even with just HP investment Steelix' bulk is more than sufficient to check physical attackers.
I really enjoy using this set, and it's the only Steelix set I'll run on offense because I think Physical is such a huge momentum suck. I'd argue max speed is almost always better on this set, or at least enough creep to outrun the majority of Steelix's simply for the reason that so many people will trade 38% from an opposing Steelix's EQ (iirc) for their Stealth Rocks, and straight OHKOing them for making that play before they get rocks is really satisfying. I'd also run Thunder Fang over Dark Pulse the majority of the time simply becuase every Dark Pulse target is typically running Colbur so the suprise factor is minimal and Flash Cannon is in general decent enough against them, whereas even uninvested -atk Thunder fang does like 60-70 to mantine iirc.

Also some thoughts on Charizard:
-Physical sets have been surprisingly effective and while less consistent, I generally think they have more potential than special sets.
-Special sets are more consistent than physical versus most playstyles in theory, but I generally find that they lack staying power and late-game presence.
-Bulky Zard is by far the set I've been most impressed with so far, despite being 4x weak to rock i think its got a really cool defensive typing that fits on a few niche teams.

look out for my post later today that will reveal the most broken pokemon in nu!
 

Shadestep

volition immanent
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sweet, no-one mentioned Sliggoo yet.


Sliggoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 184 Def / 76 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Outrage

one of my favorite Pokémon to use at the moment. it sets up on 99% of all special attackers in the tier, and deals heavy damage in return. the only annoying part is that you are locked into Outrage when you use it outside of Sleep Talk, but if you pull Outrage with Sleep Talk, you aren't locked in.
with the meta shifting towards Special Attackers and Hariyama lures, it's the best time as ever to use Sliggoo.

Ferroseed and defensive Steelix, one of the few counters, have fallen in usage over the last week (on the ladder at least), making Sliggoo even more useful. it needs team support and can't set up on most offensive physical attackers like LO Chan, but it beats those with ease, after 1 or 2 curses.
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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PU Leader
In a few months we might get what's probably the first instance of a mon so bad it's not even ranked in a lower tier being good enough to move up to a higher one. When do you guys suspect sceptile @_@
edit @ below: the post was more supposed to be "wow this is interesting" than "ban scept pls"
 
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kay

The unlikely story of an unorthodox protagonist
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Even if we suspected and banned Sceptile, Sligoo would still be good here for its ability to check other fire types such as Charizard and Magmortar and then also things like Lilligant. Tho tbf I like the idea of suspecting Sceptile but I'm not too passionate about it to make a case for doing so.
 
I disagree with Megazard's notion. We've used a lot of PU mons that weren't exactly top tier before (Prinplup comes to mind), simply for the fact that they fit our meta, even if they weren't suited for PU's. Sliggoo is a great example, checking not only Sceptile but a plethora of other special attackers, so it's not a case of a centralizing mon making an unviable one necessary, it's simply a natural development of the metagame in response to various threats.

I understand the intent though- while I personally don't think Sceptile is banworthy, a lot of people have wanted to have it looked at, and I think it would do us well to review its impact on the tier. Like Kay above, I'd support it, but I'm not adamant about it.
 
I'd like to also share my opinion with Sceptile. I also agree that it should be suspected and to be honest I would vote for it to leave just because of the simple fact that its kind of unpredictable. You can run the AoA set or the SubSD set, which usually teams aren't ready for both sets. I'm honestly not a big fan of Sliggoo as the best Sceptile check, just because of the fact that it gets worn down relatively easy and while its resting Sceptile has a good chance to set up if its the SubSD set. Theres a few other soft checks but to be honest they all get beaten. x_x

If you disagree, please share I'm really bad >_<
 

Brawlfest

I SOUND WEIRD LIKE NIGGA WITH A HARD R
is a Team Rater Alumnus
I know others have said this already, but you really should be running leftovers on this set over the other two listed items, Icy Wind should be the primary coverage move choice, Spikes is more beneficial than Toxic Spikes in this metagame imo, and Swift Swim isn't a terrible option either if you're not insecure about taking a crit. Defensive Omastar should and will be the most consistent and effective Omastar set imo, it was a workhorse in BW2 RU and its a solid blanket check to a lot of the tiers threats with the addition of dual-entry hazards.

I really enjoy using this set, and it's the only Steelix set I'll run on offense because I think Physical is such a huge momentum suck. I'd argue max speed is almost always better on this set, or at least enough creep to outrun the majority of Steelix's simply for the reason that so many people will trade 38% from an opposing Steelix's EQ (iirc) for their Stealth Rocks, and straight OHKOing them for making that play before they get rocks is really satisfying. I'd also run Thunder Fang over Dark Pulse the majority of the time simply becuase every Dark Pulse target is typically running Colbur so the suprise factor is minimal and Flash Cannon is in general decent enough against them, whereas even uninvested -atk Thunder fang does like 60-70 to mantine iirc.

Also some thoughts on Charizard:
-Physical sets have been surprisingly effective and while less consistent, I generally think they have more potential than special sets.
-Special sets are more consistent than physical versus most playstyles in theory, but I generally find that they lack staying power and late-game presence.
-Bulky Zard is by far the set I've been most impressed with so far, despite being 4x weak to rock i think its got a really cool defensive typing that fits on a few niche teams.

look out for my post later today that will reveal the most broken pokemon in nu!
I agree on Icy Wind and Toxic Spikes, however I would argue on the item point. While passive recovery is appreciated, Omastar still takes an uncomfortable amount from EQs from the likees of Chops and Tauros and it makes it a lot more consistent with Shuca. Also Rocky Helmet is pretty amazing because it takes literally <5% from every fake out in the tier and really deters them a lot. But yeah I didnt really consider slash priority I was just throwing options out but agree it'll be the most consistent omastar to use due to its reliability and being able to completely use its utility.
 

marilli

two, but one.
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In a few months we might get what's probably the first instance of a mon so bad it's not even ranked in a lower tier being good enough to move up to a higher one. When do you guys suspect sceptile @_@
edit @ below: the post was more supposed to be "wow this is interesting" than "ban scept pls"
iirc some PU players hated on and had some choice words for NU players for using Prinplup and other Eviolite Pokemon in PUPL for using 'shitmons' Tect

I think it's pretty clear that the meta is different. Of course when your main Fire-types, Grass-types, etc. all carry Knock Off / hits physically, Sliggoo sucks. Sliggoo switches to nearly every special attacker in NU other than those with Ice Beam. The biggest change was that people started using spreads better than 252 HP / 252 + SpDef and realized that Sliggoo doesn't just die to every physical hit if you invest in phydef.
 
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iirc some PU players hated on and had some choice words for NU players for using Prinplup and other Eviolite Pokemon in PUPL for using 'shitmons' Tect

I think it's pretty clear that the meta is different. Of course when your main Fire-types, Grass-types, etc. all carry Knock Off / hits physically, Sliggoo sucks. Sliggoo switches to nearly every special attacker in NU other than those with Ice Beam. The biggest change was that people started using spreads better than 252 HP / 252 + SpDef and realized that Sliggoo doesn't just die to every physical hit if you invest in phydef.
Prinplup had pretty much always been recognized as decent in PU, you're thinking of Marill which I really don't think anyone would ever use in NU (though in hindsight marill actually hard walled a few scary threats lol)

not trying to derail this thread though, please carry on talking about nu :o
 
Prinplup had pretty much always been recognized as decent in PU, you're thinking of Marill which I really don't think anyone would ever use in NU (though in hindsight marill actually hard walled a few scary threats lol)

not trying to derail this thread though, please carry on talking about nu :o
Fuck marill so much, and fuck you too Can-Eh-Dian for bringing it...

I support a sceptile suspect, also wanna say that pu players are really judgemental about certain nfe mons that work (took me months to get chinchou ranked lmao)

As far as zard goes, i like it, it's fun! super threatening to most teams so it's making for an interesting twist to the tier. Omastar seems a little overhyped for what it actually is, so i'd be interested to see how people will develop their builds. also sleeper threats like hp rock lilligant could work really well in this meta maybe.
 

Raseri

DPP Ubers Enthusiast
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The NU council has brought up Sawk as being deserving of a suspect test. As always, if you'd like to see some in depth reasoning as to why these Pokemon are being suspected, there are some paragraphs below written about why these Pokemon in particular were chosen. The suspect test will last 2 weeks, with there being 2 separate ladders that you will need to get requirements on. Each ladder will be active for one week.

The requirements for the first portion of the test have been made slightly easier to get than normal due to there being a second ladder afterwards.

The b value for portion 1 of the test will be 13. The COIL requirement will be 2600. Some sample values are below.


Code:
100 21
90 28
85 34
80 44
78 50
75 63
66 590
To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula
N=13/log2(40*GXE/2600)


This ladder will be taken down Thursday, February 18th, at 11:59AM EST, where it will be replaced by the No Sawk Ladder, give or take a bit of time due to us needing The Immortal to be on to add it. You need requirements on both ladders in order to vote.

The No Sawk Ladder will go live on February 18th, and remain active until February 25th. The COIL and B value for this test are still undecided and will be announced within the week.

For those wondering why we are testing Sawk, Disjunction put together a paragraph for me cause i'm lazy :)


The NU Council has decided to suspect Sawk due to the overwhelming effect it has on team building for all play-styles between its Choice Band and Choice Scarf sets. Sawk's incredible array of offensive options, between its two great abilities and perfect coverage move options, backed up with a monstrous attack stat, often force teams into running multiple checks to adequately handle it."



This thread will be closed for a few days in order to avoid shitposting and let people begin to gather their thoughts. Thank you everyone and good luck on the ladder!
 
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Raseri

DPP Ubers Enthusiast
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A lot of people have asked me why we chose to suspect Sawk over Sceptile, so I thought I would clear the air a bit. Sceptile was definitely considered, but due to the recent changes in the tier, the standard set Sceptile runs has changed slightly. This, along with it just not having been NU as long as Sawk, means that there is still a lot of room to discover ways to handle Sceptile. It is definitely a top tier threat, and if the metagame remains the same, will likely be considered for a suspect test in the future, but now is not the time.
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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Hi, so while I was laddering for reqs I saw sawk about 3 times. No one has really been using it so I thought I'd change that and got teams from several people so y'all can spam Sawk during the Sawk ladder. Big thank you to the people who gave me teams to post here, I expect to see a ton of Sawk on the ladder now!

- rozes
Linoone @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def / 40 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Substitute
- Seed Bomb

Klinklang @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Gear Grind
- Return
- Magnet Rise

Barbaracle @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Razor Shell
- Return
- Earthquake

Sawk @ Expert Belt
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Xatu @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 4 SpD / 8 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Grass Knot
- Signal Beam
- Roost

Golurk @ Colbur Berry
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Dynamic Punch


- Finchinator
Sawk @ Expert Belt
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- Knock Off
- Earthquake

Samurott (F) @ Mystic Water
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Swords Dance
- Megahorn
- Waterfall

Skuntank (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 232 Atk / 128 SpD / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Poison Jab
- Pursuit
- Taunt

Xatu (F) @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 84 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- U-turn
- Roost
- Feather Dance

Rhydon (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Atk / 156 SpD / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Megahorn

Primeape (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Stone Edge


- Finchinator
Sceptile (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 30 Def
- Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast
- Rock Slide
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Samurott (M) @ Mystic Water
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Megahorn
- Swords Dance
- Waterfall

Sawk @ Expert Belt
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Steelix (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Crunch

Garbodor (M) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 152 HP / 104 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spikes
- Gunk Shot
- Explosion
- Toxic Spikes

Hariyama (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 192 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off


- Finchinator
Sawk @ Choice Band
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt

Skuntank (M) @ Black Glasses
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 Atk / 108 SpD / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Crunch
- Pursuit
- Taunt

Ferroseed (M) @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Knock Off

Mesprit @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn

Hariyama (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Knock Off

Floatzel (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Taunt


- Deej Dy
Sawk (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off

Garbodor @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Impish Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Spikes
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch

Pinsir @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Earthquake

Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 40 HP / 164 SpA / 252 SpD / 52 Spe
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Heal Bell
- Thunder Wave

Haunter @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Sludge Wave
- Hex
- Pain Split


- boltsandbombers
be free (Scyther) @ Eviolite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Roost
- Aerial Ace
- Swords Dance

ison (Steelix) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 244 HP / 136 Atk / 128 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Toxic

the vine (Pyroar) @ Life Orb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hyper Voice
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hidden Power [Grass]

deeper love (Sawk) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

stickup (Mantine) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 SpD
Calm Nature
- Defog
- Scald
- Air Slash
- Toxic

endlessly (Rotom) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Discharge


- Disjunction
Barbaracle @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Razor Shell
- Return
- Shell Smash
- Cross Chop

Vileplume @ Black Sludge
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Synthesis

Mismagius @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hex
- Taunt
- Memento

Piloswine @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock

Sawk @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Gyro Ball


- iplaytennislol
Sawk @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge

Skuntank @ Lum Berry
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Taunt
- Pursuit
- Sucker Punch
- Poison Jab

Mesprit @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Signal Beam

Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Gyro Ball

Archeops
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Acrobatics
- Earth Power
- Roost
- Stone Edge

Rotom @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hex
- Will-O-Wisp
- Volt Switch
- Shadow Ball


- Can-Eh-Dian
Sawk (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge

Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Leaf Storm
- Defog

Grumpig @ Assault Vest
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 248 HP / 164 SpA / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Signal Beam
- Focus Blast
- Power Gem

Weezing @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 152 Def / 108 Spe
Bold Nature
- Taunt
- Toxic Spikes
- Sludge Bomb
- Will-O-Wisp

Steelix @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Atk / 128 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake

Pyroar @ Life Orb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Taunt


Just a disclaimer that these teams aren't perfect and are meant for you to build off of them and they're here so you can spam Sawk.

NOW GO SPAM SAWK!!!
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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The thread is now free!

Discuss opinions on Sawk and the current meta. Please refrain from theorymonning anything about Sawk leaving or the tier without it. Once the no sawk ladder goes up this thread will be closed for a couple of days to allow people to get a grasp of a potential meta without sawk.

Happy posting!
 
Throughout my time on the ladder, I saw a surprisingly little amount of sawk, which is odd. But I digress

I feel that Sawk put an extensive amount of uncreativity, and forces you to run multiple fighting resists, even when fighting scarf sets, due to offense's need to keep teams offensive, ergo using frailer, momentum grabbing checks, instead of more solid fighting counters such as gourgeist and musharna. Sawk is able to easily pressure any team, whether it's band or scarf, simply due to the fact that it's so fucking powerful. Sawk sports a monstrous base 125 attack stat, and able to use adamant choice scarf, and jolly band, with a plethora of powerful coverage moves such as earthquake, knock off and stone edge. These factors together made laddering difficult for certain matchups, for both my opponents and I. I saw not only many offensive, frailer checks to Sawk being used such as rotom and mesprit(compared to the possibility of gourgeist/musharna) and having my fighting check, being mesprit, getting easily overwhelmed even by scarf variants, simply because of the skuntank+sawk pairing, as well as steelix being another common partner for sawk, being able to 1v1 and beat down my mesprit, opening me up really easily. On the other hand, in a lot of matchups, my scarfed sawk seemed to pressure teams very heavily when combined with cb hitmonchan, due to the frail resits used, being overwhelmed by uturn mes, skunk, and dual fighters. Sawk is extremely dangerous to every playstyle, and can customize itself and overwhelm its own checks easily.

Among non-sawk things, a few pokemon I saw stand out are ice types such as aurorus and jynx, which seemed to be big threats because of everyone's over preparation for Sawk. But mainly the big thing I noticed was Kabutops. SD Kabu seemed a threat to every team, no matter which playstyle because of it's strong aqua jet and ridiculous and boostable attack stat, while also maintaining a decent speed tier. Kabutops almost had no checks, being able to kill pokemon freely on my opponents' teams, even being able to boost up and sweep on occasion, it's ability to remove defensive staples such as mesprit and weezing at +2 bode extremely well for sawk, hitmonchan and hariyama as they can easily spam free close combats, high jump kicks and the like without much punishment. Kabutops will definitely appreciate a Sawk ban if it comes to that, because it removes one of the biggest revenge killers.

In my personal opinion, Sawk does deserve to get banned. This is due to it's extreme power in all of it's sets, the non-choice ones having utility moves like taunt which can throw corkscrews in peoples' gameplans. It's ability to customize itself to fits the teams needs, and beat certain checks, and overall effectiveness against all playstyles, make it constricting on teambuilding, especially considering the old "colbur berry fad" has stuck around for pokemon such as sawk, forcing pokemon to run only this item on 90% of teams, it deserves at the very least a harsh judgement. I will be waiting, like most people, until non-sawk ladder to make my final decision, of course.

Also first, also nice essay me

e: oops i talked about non sawk meta :[
 
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Sawk...

Sawk has been a threat since I've been playing which was when ORAS was first on PS and we had the beautiful Mega-Lopunny meta. Ever since then Sawk has become more and more threatening and more and more centralizing. Sawks sheer power allows it to muscle through so many things in the meta. Now this wouldn't be so bad if Sawk didn't have beautiful coverage. Teams need a Psychic-type, a Poison-type, a Fairy-type(RIP GRANBULL). Speaking of Granbull, sure it wasn't great, but it did help deal with Sawk somewhat. Now that many of Sawk's switch-ins are gone due to usage or what not, and combining its amazing offensive stats and somewhat decent bulk it's scary. While I didn't ladder and am not going for reqs I feel that time and time again Sawk is just so, restraining. On a final note, It gets two amazing abilities, Sturdy and Mold Breaker. Sturdy honestly is the straw that broke the camels back. If this thing is in with sturdy, something is dying or taking a chunk, Sawk is pretty much guaranteed to take down 1 mon and is almost certainly going to take down more.

And with every team running anti-Sawk it becomes easy for other Pokemon to abuse this meta. I feel the biggest problem NU has is the lack of Special Walls with reliable recovery. Like lolbro said, Ice-types love it, and so do plenty other Pokemon that appreciate a meta where everyone wants to beat Sawk so they don't lose. lolbro pretty much took the words out of my mouth but I felt that this would be a great way to start becoming more active in the forums.

Overall I think that a ban would be healthy for the development of this meta, Sawk is just sooooo restrictive to teambuilding.
 
Okay so I'm just gonna say that I got reqs pretty easily using a sawk team, standard sturdy band set with relative ease and I just wanted to go into a few details about my experience that I think are clouding my judgement around voting for sawk.

Firstly, it's been in the tier so long that people prepare heavily for it (in my case, i just used a fast xatu o.o) that people naturally have a lot of ways to deal with it on their teams that they don't have any problems with it. The only true problems I feel about sawk is when I am trying to build lots of different teams and different cores, like in spl, whereby I realise just how much sawk dominates the meta in terms of theory mon. It has so much potential with mold breaker eq being the worst of them, whilst also having the ability to run sturdy to force switches consistently, whilst also having a great partner in skuntank... some would say there are no real defensive switch ins for it if you have hazards up. However, this wasn't the case really when I was actually playing my games, where sawk never caused me too much trouble since a lot of things outspeed it, or i was playing around it instinctively because i'm used to doing it so much.

However I digress. Sawk I feel doesn't add too much in the way of synergy, as it doesn't quite have defensive capabilities like gurdurr or hariyama, which are getting a fair bit of usage right now with omastar / barb being common, so i feel there are some drawbacks of choosing to build around sawk. Nevertheless, it can definitely be built around easily right now as there are some popular cores that allow it to function very well.

As far as sawk goes as a breaker, it's very good, but not un-manageable (not sure if that's a word but i'll work with it) since we've dealt with it for all this time whilst the suspect came as much of a shock to most users, whilst it mostly relies on choiced items to be its most dangerous, however i'm not saying that by any means lum, e-belt, fist plate or custap are bad sets, i just think they lack the breaking power against bulky balance and lack speed against offense, which allows me to believe there isn't really too much in the way of things that make me want to ban it from the tier.

It has great coverage, excellent breaking power and a decent speed which allows it to outspeed the majority of walls, however in actual practice, i found it very easy to play against through sheer experience of knowing how to play against it, using pivots, multiple checks etc. Overall i'm definitely on the fence about banning sawk. Whether removing it from the tier will have a positive effect, i don't really think it will make too much of a difference, so I would like to see how NU is without it. Until then, I'm probably not going to ban it.
 
NU Community I have heard your prayers. Fear not my children, for the Sawk suspect while it seems short lived, will last longer in your hearts than you can ever imagine. Nay, not just in your hearts. Verily I say unto you that the NU Current ladder will stay up an additional 3 sun cycles. So shall it be written, so shall it be.

For those of you who didn't follow, the NU Council has decided to keep the NU Current and No Sawk Ladders up for a total of 10 days each. We realize that 7 days to qualify for reqs can be difficult to achieve, so the addition of another weekend to each cycle should hopefully resolve this issue. You can find an updated list of dates below.

NU Current Ladder End Date: Sunday, February 21, at 11:59 PM EST
No Sawk Ladder Start Date: TBD
No Sawk Ladder End Date: 10 Days after start date
 
It’s very upsetting that I even have to make a post on this matter, but here goes.

It’s come to the attention of the NU Moderation team that users have been attempting to qualify for suspect requirements by laddering on shared accounts.

For the purpose of this post, shared accounts will refer to: accounts where more than one person is logged in and playing games at a time, accounts where multiple players have recorded games (i.e. player 1 goes 5-5 on the alt, and player 2 goes 3-1 on the alt for a combined record of 8-6), and accounts that were previously used on the ladder by other people.

Laddering on a shared account evades the fundamental purpose of a suspect ladder, to prove that you and you alone are qualified to vote on a decision that affects tiering.

Regardless of whether or not your intentions are malicious or dishonest in nature, using a shared account to ladder for suspect reqs is against the rules and can be met with an infraction.
 
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