Metagame NP: NU Stage 3 - Rain On Me [Bans Post #87]

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Hello everyone! This latest stage of NU is set to be our most exciting yet, with a massive tier shift turning everything on it's head. Here's a summary of everything that changed this month:


Tauros moved from RU to NUBL
Vanilluxe moved from RU to NUBL
Vikavolt moved from RU to NUBL
Aromatisse moved from RU to NU
Cinccino moved from RU to NU
Clawitzer moved from RU to NU
Corsola-Galar moved from RU to NU
Drampa moved from RU to NU
Duraludon moved from RU to NU
Exeggutor-Alola moved from RU to NU
Frosmoth moved from RU to NU
Galvantula moved from RU to NU
Gastrodon moved from RU to NU
Jellicent moved from RU to NU
Mudsdale moved from RU to NU
Ninetales moved from RU to NU
Pincurchin moved from RU to NU
Poliwrath moved from RU to NU
Rhydon moved from RU to NU
Ribombee moved from RU to NU
Runerigus moved from RU to NU
Sableye moved from RU to NU
Sandslash-Alola moved from RU to NU
Sigilyph moved from RU to NU
Silvally-Steel moved from RU to NU
Whimsicott moved from RU to NU

Golurk moved from NU to RU
Ditto moved from NU to OU


Moreover, we're unbanning all Pokemon from NUBL and letting them roam in the tier to evaluate how they perform now that the power level of the tier has increased. This means that Tauros, Vanilluxe, Vikavolt, Gallade, Haunter, Kingler, Sneasel, and Turtonator are all now unbanned from NU. (Tagging The Immortal and Marty to implement these changes on the ladder, thank you as always!)

The NU Council will be closely monitoring the tier throughout the month and quick banning / voting on whatever is deemed necessary, with the ability to retest them in the future being available. Please remember that our goal is not to reach the same power level of the previous SS NU Meta, but to increase it and work with what we have now. This is a fresh start for NU and we're very excited to see how it unfolds. We'll be keeping the community updated as we have more information to share, but until then enjoy the new metagame and go wild!

Disclaimer: Any one liners / off-topic conversation will be deleted, and you risk being infracted.​
 
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just to be clarified, drought is still banned?
Yes, we've unbanned all the Pokemon from NUBL, but the Drought ban remains. Myself and rozes have no intention of retesting / unbanning Drought at the moment, but it has the potential to be considered at some point in the distant future like anything within NUBL.
 
Yes, we've unbanned all the Pokemon from NUBL, but the Drought ban remains. Myself and rozes have no intention of retesting / unbanning Drought at the moment, but it has the potential to be considered at some point in the distant future like anything within NUBL.
Good news imo, i dont want drought-depending sweepers coming in and destroying the tier completely, nobody wants that! Its good to keep it that way until drought kinda dies or until we get some checking mons. Besides, no one likes drought or Ninetales
 
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Great. I dont want drought-depending sweepers coming in and destroying the tier completely, nobody wants that! You better somehow keep it that way until drought kinda dies down or until we get some checking mons. Besides, no one likes drought or Ninetales
Drought is banned from nu :/
 
I mean, they are like 4 usable fire-types, and has great speed for the tier, It may not be that bad
NP + Boots is something but its walled by every Dragon type..

:Stunfisk Galar: is gonna be the goat with al the dragons and fairies + frostmoth.. turtonator laught at it but he gonna be the Goat
 
We're kicking things off early this month. After discussion with rozes and the NU Council, Turtonator and Sigilyph will be quickbanned from NU.

Turtonator: Turtonator is just as overpowered as it was the last time it was in the tier. It gets many set-up opportunities thanks to its natural bulk and unique typing to pull off a Shell Smash, allowing it to steamroll past anything and everything. With a Timid nature it's only outsped by Ribombee and a select amount of Choice Scarfers, some of which don't have the power or coverage to revenge kill it. Simply put, Turtonator is far too overwhelming for the tier and was unanimously agreed upon to be broken in NU.

Sigilyph: Sigilyph's combination of ridiculous power, offensive typing, and insane coverage makes it impossible to check defensively or stall out. With Magic Guard it can continuously fire off Life Orb boosted attacks without punishment and obtain a kill anytime it comes in, which is quite often due to it's status immunity. Sigilyph also boasts a good Speed tier which allows it to outpace a significant portion of the metagame and leave it revenge killed by a small pool of Pokemon which cannot safely switch-in. All of this makes Sigilyph far too much for the tier to handle, and thus it has been quickbanned.

Tagging Marty and The Immortal to implement these changes, thank you for your time.

Our current plan of action is to have a full on Council Vote this weekend, in which we'll all nominate Pokemon we find worthy of being examined more thoroughly, and have the results along with reasoning tallied up and posted before Week 2 of the Smogon Snake Draft. Please remember that anything that gets banned is subject to be looked at again in the future when appropriate. Our primary goal is to create a stable, enjoyable, and balanced metagame as soon as possible without flattening the power curve any more than we need to. Feel free to discuss the metagame until the next vote and give your thoughts on what you think defines the tier right now. We look forward to seeing what innovations you can come up with!
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
NP + Boots is something but its walled by every Dragon type..

:Stunfisk Galar: is gonna be the goat with al the dragons and fairies + frostmoth.. turtonator laught at it but he gonna be the Goat
with that logic every mon is somewhat trash, since every mon has its weaknesses and foes its getting walled by LOL

but enough of 1 liners here and other stuff, i am really looking forward on how the metagame will evolve,
i think :ninetales: could be a nice special fire- type in the tier as we dont have alot of fire-types in the tier and i can see the nasty plot or specs-set working to dish out some damage, scorching sand can help it on some way to bypass the other fire-types like silvally-fire and rapidash in the tier.
:galvantula: sticky webs hyper offense has a new partner in galvantula which is not only fast but has threatening options in thunder, bug buzz and volt switch to create momentum, when necessary. the same goes for :ribombee: it could also lead of as a webs-setter with stun spore in its arsenal it can create supergood moments for its teammates. im kinda hyped to try out webs offense, since we have two fast setters with nice utility and coverage.
:gastrodon: is another good ground-pkmn with a good second typing in water, and it can act as a physically or specially defensive pkmn depending on what the future metagame trend will show.
:drampa: and :duraludon: oh boy, they will be great specs users, i think they will be lowkey broken tbh.
:frosmoth: once it gets a QD up it can dish out serious damage and sweep teams, but it has its faster checks in ninetales, rapidash and silvally-fire potentially.
not much to say on the others so far.
 
The first thing that jumps out to me is that the few steels in this tier do not have recovery, and the new drops are able to abuse this to break through each other's checks.

:drampa: :exeggutor-alola: :duraludon: :tauros: :vanilluxe:
Drampa and Exeggutor-Alola are able to destroy them with Specs-boosted Fire-type coverage (and even Draco does a ton); Duraludon can chip them with Specs Draco (while also threatening Fairies with its other STAB) or run Body Press / IDef + BPress to render them unable to stop it. Tauros is extremely fast and gets coverage for them in CC, EQ, and Fire Blast, and Vanilluxe is also able to wear them down with Hail chip and powerful Blizzards.

:ribombee: :frosmoth:
These Pokemon will be able to clear the way for threatening late-game cleaners like QD Ribombee and potentially QD Frosmoth, though Frosmoth might not be as good due to most Scarfers (Sawk, Toxicroak) being able to successfully revenge it at +1.

As you see above, many of the new Pokemon can wear down each other's checks, and that'll be the first thing I test out in this new meta. However, NU got lots of defensive options such as Sableye, Gastrodon, Mudsdale, and Aromatisse - I'm also curious to test whether they will be able to keep up with the new threats that came with them.
 
And so the DLC cascade has made its way down to NU. It would seem that, during this stage of the phenomenon, a considerable amount of pre-DLC mons have gotten swept down here, including a few mons that were previously forced to migrate up the tiering rungs. So, the big question: how well do these new additions fit into the meta? That is precisely what I seek to answer, as I offer a brief rundown of each mon's strengths and weaknesses and examine a hypothetical role for each of them. I know I'm probably off the mark on at least a few of these, but I hope you appreciate these proto-analyses regardless. With that said, let's just jump into it:

Aromatisse: I admit that I have mixed thoughts about how Aromatisse will perform in NU. On paper, it packs two solid sets as a either a Nasty Plot sweeper or as a cleric with Wish and Aromatherapy. However, it does face some stiff competition from the two pre-existing fairies; offensively, it has to compete with Alcremie, who has overall better coverage, instant recovery and packs Acid Armor for a bulky mono-attacker set. Defensively, it has to compete with Clefairy, who has all of Tisse's cleric tricks and the ability to pivot via Teleport. Tisse definitely has all the makings of a good NU mon, but it struggles to stand out against its competition.

Cinccino: Cinccino is a fairly simple offensive mon- use Skill Link to access guaranteed 125 BP STAB in Tail Slap (assuming you hit), round it out with good coverage in Knock Off and SL Bullet Seed (and possibly Rock Blast), and equip U-turn for scouting for a simple but effective user of either Band or Life Orb. The main thing poised to hold the chinchilla back is the abundance of Scarfers, mainly the quite solid picks of Toxicroak, Sawk, Decidueye and Basculin, the latter two of whom can also function as fast pivots.

Clawitzer: While everyone else might be blown away by the other powerful special attackers dropping this shift, I feel that Clawitzer is lowkey one of the most dangerous new additions. Between solid 120 SpA and Specs, Claw hits like a truck, able to blow through many common mons with its ability-boosted Water Pulse, Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse, alongside U-turn to serve as a nice slow pivot. You can also slot in Ice Beam or Dragon Pulse to better hit Grass and Dragon types, although the two core coverage moves can usually do the job just fine. Solid so far, right? However, where this thing really gets insane is through a partnership with either Pincurchin or Thwackey, which allows it to drop one of its normal moves for the devastation of: Terrain Pulse!
For those of you who missed my post about this back on the RU thread, a brief rundown: between the Mega Launcher boost and the natural boost of terrain, Claw's TPulse gets jacked up to a shocking 195 BP. The two terrains in NU sweeten this deal further as both give TPulse a super-effective hit on opposing Water types, which Claw can struggle with on occasion. GrassPulse allows you to still clean up against Quagsire, Lanturn and fellow drop Gastrodon, while ElecPulse carries less resists and grants an easy OHKO against tier titan Toxicroak. But that's not all: Specs boosted TPulse can also 2HKO Alcremie and AV Hitmontop and 2HKO offensive Decidueye and DragVally through the resist and does a minimum 98.7% to Cofagrigus. Simply put, the power of these two sets basically makes Claw into NU's Kyurem (thanks to that shift for screwing up my metaphor), a nuclear Special Attacker who can be revenge-killed with low difficulty, but its sheer power can potentially decide games against opponents who fail to utilize proper caution.

G. Corsola: Gorsola, thanks to Eviolite boosted bulk, comes to attention as quite possibly the best answer to physical sweepers. Strength Sap allows it to recover while weakening any physical threats, it can cripple with burn thanks to Will-o-wisp or Scald and can even Haze in case of emergency, which also allows it some use against Special attackers. Of course, Gorsola can also eschew hazing duties to be a reliable Rock setter thanks to its bulk (plus many opposing Rockers are physical). Night Shade serves as a way to consistently damage foes. However, Gorsola is not without its flaws- its sole physical fear is Knock Off handicapping its bulk, it has no way to deal with status and it is highly vulnerable to Taunt. Also, NU forces it to coexist with Hattrem, who can bounce back anything bar Shade and Scald. Still, Gorsola looks primed to served as a key defensive mon, although its presence is not particularly great for its evolution.

Drampa: And here we have our first potentially banworthy mon. Drampa is certainly no slouch on the offensive front, packing a brutal 135 SpA stat and coverage for days. By far its scariest set is the Specs breaker, its STABs and Fire Blast being more than enough to put the hurt on every mon in the tier, especially once it gets a Berserk boost. Its fourth slot can basically be anything your team needs, be it Hydro Pump, Thunderbolt, Focus Miss or status via Glare or Toxic. While Specs alone makes this thing a serious threat, it can use its recovery in Roost to take the role of a bulky CM sweeper, powering up Dragon STAB and either Hyper Voice or fire coverage to clean house later in the game; Roost also allows Dramps to repeatedly rack up Berserk boosts. It also has the utility to potentially utilize a more defensive spread, with Roost, Glare to spread status, Draco Meteor for offensive pressure and your choice of Hyper Voice/Flamethrower/Defog; any bulkier set might want to use Sap Sipper to allow more switch in opportunities. Sure, Dramps is easily outsped by 95% of the tier, and its bulk isn't impenetrable, but that power and ability to throw out virtually anything it could need means you can never be sure your switch in is safe. Between its Specs or CM power and its high level of versatility, I can easily see Drampa potentially being a bit too much for NU to handle.

Duraludon: Duraladon is another mon that NU might need to look out for. Its solid Defense and ok speed tier allow it to set up Rocks without too much difficulty, while its SpA is no joke either. Its best use is probably that of an offensive rocker, firing off hefty STABs and either Thunderbolt for coverage or Thunder Wave to further its support capabilities. It can also potentially utilize a powerful Specs set to just go ham, but its lackluster movepool means that it's not quite as scary as other Specs users (say Drampa). However, its biggest hurtle is its shockingly bad special bulk, as even resisted hits can easily 2HKO, which is especially bad given how specially oriented the tier is right now. Until things start getting banned, its probably best to stick to the Rocker set with this guy.

A. Exeggutor: Alolan Eggy is certainly nothing to take lightly; with just its two STABs and terrific anti-Steel coverage in Flamethrower, Eggy is quite possibly the second scariest Special attacker in the tier (can you tell what I think of Drampa yet?) . This gen actually gave it a boost thanks to the Teleport buff, meaning that Eggy can also provide utility for its team now, making use of it either on its Specs set (as I said, it really only needs three attacking moves) or as a Trick Room setter (less common but can still be nightmarish). Honestly, Eggy is one of the few mons of this group that might be banworthy through its sheer power and ability to pivot.

Frosmoth: Thanks to its Ice Scales Frosmoth can make many offensive mons think twice before going special, lest it allow Moth to set up Quiver Dance and become a devastating sweeper. However, Moth has several key issues that may keep it from stardom; it has serious coverage issues against Fire (only having Hurricane) and Steel (having- nothing) types, it is very squishy physically, and it hates Knock Off since loosing Boots mean that Rocks can be an instant death sentence. As such, hazard support is still recommended even with Boots and I'd advise you to save Moth for late game and deal with any priority users before hand.

Gallade: This man is aiming to destroy Toxicroak's whole career. I kid, but Gallade's return is probably not good for Croak, both in terms of that super-effective hit and because it now has serious competition as a Fighting type (although it's still pretty great). While Gall doesn't have the ability to go special, it does possess a higher attacking stat and can also go for LO Swords Dance and Scarf quite effectively. Aside from its solid STAB combo and Knock Off, it has several options in SD, Trick, Destiny Bond and possibly even Shadow Sneak for some priority. I feel this gent is probably one of the unbans who's more likely to be rebanned, but at the very least he's more than worthy of being a top tier in NU.

Galvantula: With its Web setting abilities no longer required in NU (although they might actually be again after this shift), Galvantula spins its Web down in NU. While it has to compete with Vikavolt and (unexpectedly) Ribombee, Galvantula sets itself apart by virtue of its Speed and power thanks to 91% accurate STAB Thunder. It also has its Bug Buzz to breeze through Hattrem, Energy Ball for Ground types and Volt Switch to quickly pivot out. It also has the option to ditch Webs and go for an all-out attacker set, backed by either Life Orb or Specs, which helps give it some breathing room with the other two setters.

Gastrodon: Gastrodon is a pretty basic mon at its core, doing what it always does: dual STAB in Scald and EP/EQ, Toxic to cripple Grass types on the switch in and Recover to maintain health. It'll probably be good, but I don't have much to say about it.

Haunter:
Haunter got a bunch of new pros and cons with this shift: it now has a lot more Ghost types to compete with, although those Ghosts can also be victims for it. It is still very threatening with NP + 3 attacks, but it now has to look out for more Scarfers, Dark types (namely A. Persian) and priority users. It's still not to be underestimated, but Haunter may need to innovate a bit in order to recapture its pre-ban glory.

Jellicent: Jellicent drops in to remind NU what it truly means to be a bulky Water. In Jelli's case, that solid bulk is backed by Scald/Will-o-Wisp burns and great recovery in either Recover or Strength Sap. Those burns also boost its offensive capabilities by letting it fire of 110 BP Hexes. However, Jelli also has the capability to perform offensively with either Specs or Scarf, especially thanks to the those scary ass Water Spouts, although defensive is generally better.

Kingler: Sure, NU now has more water immunities and resists, but Kingler still has the potential to be terrifying with its Swords Dance, LO Sheer Force antics. I don't think the bulky Waters are as well equipped to handle this guy as with other offensive waters thanks to its access to Knock Off, which especially scares out Jellicent. While it really only has Rock Slide for SF moves, it gets some great coverage in X Scissor, High Horsepower and Superpower; and that's not to diminish how scary SF Liquidation can be, because it certainly is. Another mon that may very well need to be rebanned.

Mudsdale: Mudsdale serves as a pretty effective Rocker thanks to Stamina, while firing back with a great 125 Attack stat. Its coverage isn't anything to write home about, but Stone Edge and Body Press/Close Combat still smack hard against a lot of the tier, while Toxic cripples the rest. This power also allows it to be an effective Bander, with that set also potentially making use of Heavy Slam thanks to Muds' natural weight.

Ninetales:
Cut off from its precious Drought, Ninetales still serves as an good offensive Fire type. With Boots, Ninetales mainly uses NP alongside Fire Blast, Energy Ball for the abundant Water types and either Psychic/Psyshock for the resident Fighting types, Dark Pulse for Gorsola and Cofagrigus or Scorching Sands if you want to watch things burn *evil laughter*. That last slot is fairly flexible and can be suited for whatever you need most. Still, Ninetales isn't too impressive in terms of physical bulk, making it vulnerable to common Scarfers and priority users; it especially hates Basculin, who can fit either role and whose Adaptability STAB tears right through it (although it can't really switch in). Still, Tales ain't half bad in terms of giving Nu more Fire type options.

Pincurchin: While I personally feel that Pincurchin has been a bit undersold in the higher tiers, the lower power level of NU may finally be enough for Pin to become a consistent meta presence. In terms of its tools, Pin packs a lot of valuable support, setting Spikes and spreading status through either Scald or boosted Discharge while keeping itself healthy with Recover; even with only 4 SpA EVs, ET Discharge can hit surprisingly hard. However, its most valuable source of support is of course setting that Terrain, which enables Rising Voltage users like Jolteon and Lanturn, the aforementioned Terrain Pulse Clawitzer, and E. Seed Unburden sweeps from either Liepard or Thievul. The strategy does get screwed by Defog (namely from Silvallies who don't mind Electric), but ET teams and their setter can produce rewards well worth the effort to any skilled trainer.

Poliwrath: Poliwrath is another drop you wouldn't expect to be anything spectacular, but looking at its tools, I will claim that Poliwrath may be one of the most versatile new threats in NU, even just running Water Absorb. Firstly, it can function as either a Bulk Up or Belly Drum sweeper, utilizing its STABs alongside Darkest Lariat for those pesky Ghost types; Bulk Up variants also have the option of using Sub to protect against status (especially valuable with Sableye in the mix). Wrath's bulk also allows it to potentially run an effective AV set, utilizing Liquidation and Lariat alongside Drain Punch for recovery and either CC or Circle Throw, depending on if you need power or utility. Speaking of Circle Throw, though, this move can be especially effective on a fully defensive variant- namely, the return of Wrath's RestTalk set with Throw and Scald to spread ze burns. Finally, if you're willing to go for manual rain, Wrath can actually serve as a a Swift Swim cleaner, potentially even going special with STABs and Ice Beam; I can't say if this is actually good, but I think manual weather in NU could be possible given the potential a certain other weather has post-drop (more on that later). All in all, Wrath is a jack of all trades in NU, offering plenty of viable variety.

Rhydon: Thanks to Eviolite, Rhydon becomes one of the bulkiest mons in NU. Its naturally great physical bulk allows it Rock fairly reliably. After SR, Rhydon can function as a powerful Swords Dance user with STABs, go 3 attacks with STABs and Ice Punch, or potentially double down on its defenses while spreading damage via EQ, Rock Blast and Toxic. As great as Eviolite is, though, it can only do so much to patch Rhy's less than stellar SpD, especially with how many weaknesses it has to deal with. This thing also mandates Wish support due to its lack of recovery. That said, Rhydon is good at getting rocks up and trading blows on the physical side, and that's all it really needs to do.

Ribombee: Wait, what? Why the hell are you of all mons down here? So anyways, *ahem* Ribombee has three possible roles that I see. 1). A suicide Webs lead, guaranteed to get Webs with its blazing Speed. With static seeds (Stun Spore) or pivoting, depending on your needs, it can even screw Hattrem who try to impede it using a buzzy cacophony (Bug Buzz). 2). Yet another user of Specs, oh yes, but one who can exchange Specs onto its checks. That's when it's not using STABs or Psychics, or also U-turning away from its threats. 3). Finally, Quiver Dance comes to deliver a speedy sweeper who can make those lacking special bulk shiver. It's STABs again, plus Psychic or Roost, as Bee can be a bit bulky after some boosts. Of course, things aren't perfect for Bee, as it has a great check in Steel Silvally. It also has nothing to hurt Fire types, whose embers give it plenty of gripes. A versatile threat it, it must be spoken, although I can't say if the Bee is broken. Either way, it probably won't last, since RU still wants Webs and Araquanid just left class. And now this entry, I must move past, because thinking of more rhymes is becoming a pain. ... (No, I don't know why I started doing this either.)

Runerigus: As weird as this probably sounds, Runerigus is both interesting and uninteresting as a SR setter. It is uninteresting as it is yet another Ground type with high Defense but no recovery, while its Ghost typing is a double-edged sword given the Knock Off weakness, while lacking some key utility that fellow Ghost rocker Gorsola has; at first glance, it kind of gets overshadowed as a Rocker by Mudsdale, Rhydon and Sandaconda. Where it gets interesting is in three particular moves- Will-o-wisp allows it to fortify its bulk and spread passive damage, while Toxic Spikes allows it to be a somewhat rare dual setter and makes up fors its lack of Toxic. Its third trick is the recent addition of Poltergeist, which finally gives it good Ghost STAB and allows it to scout items for its team. I still think the other four Rockers I mentioned in this blurb are overall better, but this particular grab bag does grant some reason to use Rune over the competition so long as you lean into that. It could also be used as a Bander with STABs and Body Press now that Golurk is gone, but that option is admittedly more niche.

Sableye: Sableye is a straight forward Prankster user: Taunt or Encore to shut down walls and sweepers, Will-o-wisp to cripple physical attackers (with a lot of Defense investment, this thing can be surprisingly bulky), Recover to- recover health, and Knock Off to remove pesky items. While it hates Dark types for stopping its Prankster antics, its main gripe is the fact that the current NU meta is very Specially oriented (and a few drops that we've discussed may make that even more so), meaning that its Wisps aren't as valuable as in the higher tiers. I also feel that Whimsicott is the overall better Prankster user right now, mainly because it's fast and can actually hurt Dark types. This is not to diminish Sable's usefulness, just to say that it may prefer NU after a few bans.

Alolandslash: Wow, that nickname sounded better in my head. You probably wouldn't expect an Ice/Steel type to possess defensive utility, but Slash can do just that thanks to good Defense and solid support moves in SR, Spikes, Rapid Spin and Knock Off. That said, we all know that offensive power is the true draw of this thing- with either a Swords Dance LO set, a Scarf set or occasional Band set, A. Slash can slash the tier thanks to a decent STAB combo and Earthquake to handle Fires and Steels; Choiced sets round this out with either Spin, Toxic or Knock. However, where Slash really gets crazy is, of course, when hail is in play, provided by either Abomasnow or recent unban Vanilluxe, as Slush Rush allows it to handily outspeed any non-Scarf mon bar Ninjask, who doesn't really like the 1v1. That previously mentioned Defense really shines when backed by Aurora Veil, allowing A. Slash to tank some important neutral hits. All in all, A. Slash under Hail is terrifying; I wouldn't quite say its banworthy, but I do think it might be a big enough deal that some players try to experiment with manual weather to counteract Hail (or maybe use Hippopotas).

SteelVally: While it must compete for a spot with the other Vallys, SteelVally is certainly helpful for providing NU with another great Steel type. Its physical Swords Dance set packs a powerful Steel STAB to shred Fairies with Multi-Attack, also packing Flame Charge to dent Steels and boost further and Rock Slide for anti-Fire coverage. However, the presence of Magneton and its otherwise unhelpful physical coverage mean that Special/mixed is definitely the better option, as Flamethrower eases the 1v1 with Mag and Thunderbolt allows it to cleave through Waters. SteelVally can also be a solid Defogger thanks to resisting Rocks, and I do think a lesser but still decent defensive set could work since only Gunfisk really fills the defensive Steel role right now. At least on paper, SteelVally is a certified threat, although I'm not sure how it will compete will Vally's other forms.

Sneasel: I'd normally say that Sneasel will probably be okay in NU now; after all, it would have some new defensive answers and hates the rise of Scarfers. However, then I remembered that obscure new move named Triple Axel, which is probably going to be very scary despite its accuracy issues, especially after Swords Dance. Really, the only true defensive measures Sneasel has (at least as far as I can tell) are Silvally forms that resist Ice since Vally denies Knock Off and have quite a few options to threaten it back. Much like its evolution, Sneasel is a very all-or-nothing mon, though I'm not sure what the ratio for all vs nothing is.

Tauros: Tauros is a speedy, no nonsense user of Sheer Force, firing off STAB Body Slams, Rock Slides and Headbutts of various types, while also loving its new additions of Close Combat and Throat Chop. It outspeeds most of the tier, allowing it to clean house against any teams lacking an effective revenge killer. I wouldn't quite say this is broken, but it's definitely one of the best revenge killers and cleaners of NU.

Vanilluxe: The ice cream serves itself as the new best hail setter. Vanilluxe has plenty of useful STAB, between Blizzard/Weather Ball, Freeze Dry for waters and Ice Shard for some back up priority. It also sets Aurora Veil more reliably than Abomasnow and can even spring a surprise Explosion on the opponent, which isn't a big deal since Hail is naturally inclined for HO anyways. And crucially, this thing enables A. Slash, and I already explained how scary that can be under Hail. Abomasnow does still have some advantages, mainly because it actually has coverage, but the cone is just better in what little it can do thanks to superior power and speed.

Vikavolt: While it inherently needs to compete for a team slot with Galvantula, Vikavolt does have some wholly unique traits for an NU Webs setter; its Defense stat, Levitate and Roost allow it to actually have defensive utility, its low Speed allows its Volt Switch to more safely get teammates in, and of course its monstrous Special Attack more than makes up for the weaker Electric STAB compared to Galv. However, that low Speed is also its greatest weakness, as it makes Volt much more vulnerable to Taunt than its competitors. Alternatively, you could also run an Agility + 3 Attacks set if you don't need Webs, although that is another option best saved for late game.

Whimsicott: Ever the Prankster, Whimsicott is quite a disruptive support, packing options like Defog, Tailwind, Memento, Encore, Taunt and Leech Seed, alongside U-turn pivoting and STAB Moonblast to actually threaten the Dark types who would try to shut it down. Cott can also eschew the Prankster role for a Specs set, packing dual STAB with Psychic and either U-turn to scout or Switcheroo to continue its disruptive capabilities. While limited to two general roles, Cott is another drop with a rather large amount of versatility, and can be very annoying if you don't prepare for it.

So, that was my exhaustive list of preliminary analyses. They're definitely not perfect, but I look forward to seeing how many predictions don't blow up in my face.
 
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Elias PSY

Uh...later
is a Top Tiering Contributor
:decidueye::gourgeist:

Both decidueye and gourgeist hates drampa returning,especially the latter who is forced to give up recovery to run explosion.Should see less usages

:toxicroak:

Nasty plot sets will be less effective with the additions of more fast checks who carry super effective move and resists one of his stabs (:ninetales:,:whimsicott:,:ribombee:, :haunter: ) and sableye who completely wall it with encore.
 

Been messing around with hard Trick Room on lower ladder, and it's super fun thanks to some of the new drops. Exeggutor-Alola, Drampa, and Vikavolt hit insanely hard, and their typing and bulk lets them come in pretty frequently. Eggy being a solid breaker and setter in one slot is also super clutch. Jellicent and Runerigus are both amazing TR setters too, their typing and bulk lets them come in multiple times per game to set room (and Rocks in Runerigus's case) while softening targets' hits with Strength Sap (for Jelli) and Wisp to make it easy for your bulky breakers to pivot in. This tier has a crazy amount of strong, slow special attackers, and putting a bunch of them together can wear down opponents really quickly. Here is a paste of the team if you'd like to give it a spin!
 

Mariannabelle

chill guy
is a Tiering Contributor
Hello local Ninjask spammer Mari here, with a few comments on drops and ex-NUBL mons

OBVIOUS LUNATIC MONS:

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TAUROS: There isn't all that much I need to say about it. Cash Speed tier, great Attack stat with Sheer Force, and insane coverage to abuse. Offensive and defensive counterplay against this thing are very limited, with stuff like Specs Ribombee outspeeding and KO'ing, and stuff like Corsola-G and Sableye being able to switch in decently enough. Its performance against everything else, however, is too good if you ask me.

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DON'T BE A REACTIONARY:
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These guys are here to represent a general change in the makeup of offense.
I've seen a whisper whisper about Ribombee perhaps being busted, but I want people to consider that there is solid counterplay to the likes of Whimsicott and Ribombee available, it just hasn't been used much because so far, we haven't had to address offensive fairy types. Similarly, our special Ice offense before has been limited to just Abomasnow and Rotom-Frost (and Froslass, I guess?)

Before suggesting that any of these things are broken, I suggest that in addition to the new Pokemon, you might consider trying out some lesser-used mons that, perhaps, are lesser used because there was no need for them before. Just throwing ideas out, but the likes of spDef Flareon and Carkoal, as well as Alolan Sandslash, make solid defensive checks to the new Ice types and Fairy Types, and we also have the GOAT Silvally-Steel, as well Ninetales and Rapidash offensively checking them.
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THESE GUYS, on the other hand:

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Our counterplay against Dragons is just kind of non-existent now. It's late and I'm tired, but I don't think we have much of anything well equipped to take on the powerful special attacks of these guys. Fairy types get hit, hard, by their secondary STABS, and they all have means to bypass Steel types (Flamethrowers on Drampa and neckboi, as well as Body Press on Duraludon.) <--- also Iron Defense boosted.
Putting Duraludon aside, Drampa and Exeggutor are extremely difficult to wall, and as far as consistent counterplay goes you're limited to stuff like... uh, max Sp.Def Aromatisse?

252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 193-228 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 24.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 397-469 (97.7 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah, real solid, (sarcasm).
Duraludon is in another class of its own, though, since in addition to being able to break past walls, it even has a solid speed tier equaling that of the likes of friggin' Toxicroak. If Drampa and Eggy's existence can be justified by their low speed and ease of offensive checking, well, that doesn't apply to Duraludon. You ever just wanna check something but realize that the behemoth is just as fast as you are? The saving grace is that the SpDef on Duraludon is pathetic (you can just OHKO with random stuff like +1 Ice Beams or Moonblasts from Frosmoth/Whimsicott/Ribombee).

Basically, we theoretically have access to the Steel types and Fairy types needed to keep these guys from running over everything, but they all aren't really cutting it.

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As this post gets longer and my eyelids go lower, I'll just add that the defensive counterplay to this mon is VERY THIN. Dies to a sneeze, though. Solid enough check to fairies as long as they aren't carrying Psychic. I urge everyone to try this mon out; I haven't been seeing it enough on the ladder.

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SHOUTOUTS

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Sticky web has some new users now, so that's cool. Bugs are cool. Vikavolt is also its own abuser, which is neat.

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With Water Absorbers (and Storm Drain, thanks Gastro) more common than ever, stuff like Basculin is gonna fall off hard. Now, more than ever, we need offensive Water types that can muscle past things that absorb water. Shoutout to Jellicent for having access to Energy Ball, which means it can't be walled by Gastrodon, and shoutout to Poliwrath, who between stuff like Bulk Up -> Close Combat and Darkest Lariat, has the tools to take on the likes of Gastrodon and opposing Jellicent.

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Solid option against the likes of Cincinno, Gallade, and Tauros. Switches in and applies a priority Burn, or clicks Encore, or just uses Knock Off on their way out. Priority Recover means that as long as it isn't 2hko'd (yeah, a lot of stuff manages that, but not among the things that Sab wants to wall) it can survive rather well.

The support offered by this thing is actually very useful for certain teams. It ruins Stunfisk-G's ability to wall the MANY things it wants to, it weakens Earthquake for critters that don't like Earthquake, it can be used to trigger seeds for Unburden. Someone else (thanks Okispokis ) mentioned that it gives Clawitzer access to a Grass-type, boosted Terrain Pulse, preventing it from being walled by Gastrodon or Jellicent or Poliwrath. Thwackey can also pull its own weight with a solid priority option in Grassy Glide, as well as access to Swords Dance and solid enough attacks like Drain Punch, Knock Off, and U-turn.
 

Attachments

Luck O' the Irish

got my automotion
is a Tiering Contributor
incoming long ass post on my opinions of the new mons and their effect on the meta. there's no particular order within the sections, i made a list as they came to mind. i also didnt read mari's post before writing this up so might be a lot of overlap

ALMOST CERTAINLY BROKEN

:Tauros:- the only real things that have changed are rhydon is in this tier and we actually have mons that outspeed it now.
its speed tier is still awesome and we now have one pokemon that can kinda switch in. body slam/cc/throat chop is perfect coverage and we just dont have enough reliable defensive counterplay w its speed tier imo. i dont think there are many ppl disagreeing that this mon is busted.

:Ribombee:- specs is ridiculous. between its speed tier and power its 100% a top tier threat rn. im gonna ignore its other sets (qd, webs) cause frankly i just dont see why you'd use those when we have other options and its rly not all that threatening w/o the initial boost. unlike other drops, it actually has much more reliable defensive counterplay. however, all of this counterplay doesnt have recovery, so it can easily make progress vs these mons w spikes. trick also ruins a lot of its defensive counterplay- basically everything (ferro, fisk, alolaslash, ninetales, dash, frosmoth, clef) w the exception of steelvally. furthermore, bee pairs perfectly w the dragons, as they share similar checks, and provide passable defensive synergy between them, and between them have plenty of opportunities to wear down each others checks so bee can clean. it also outspeeds and ohkos basically every offensive mon. dont think this should remain in the tier.

Dragons: :drampa: :duraludon: :exeggutor-alola:- so for the record, i thought drampa was unhealthy for the tier a few months ago. in terms of defensive counterplay, we have added aroma, which is worse at dealing with all of these dragons than already existing fairies like clef, and steelvally, which deals with these as well as fisk does. so the only thing that has rly changed now is we have more offensive mons to deal w them. the other dragons have a similar power level to drampa and their own ways to distinguish themselves and beat checks. in order to properly deal w all the dragons you kinda need resistances/immunes to all of their attacking moves, and then predict correctly. frankly, im not convinced that we have the means to deal with these, although i imagine ppls opinions on these are different if they felt like drampa was fine back in the day.

:vikavolt:- we have no additional defensive counterplay, and boots agility sets just kinda beat all the offensive mons. nothings rly changed for it imo.

VERY GOOD AND HEALTHY/MAYBE BROKEN BUT TIME WILL TELL

:vanilluxe:- having miltank (w thick fat of course), alolaslash, ninetales, frosmoth, and steelvally gives us much much better defensive counterplay to this mon than existed previously, especially w the grass/ghosts getting worse/temporarily overshadowed and miltank having more room to not run sap sipper, so i have a hard time saying its broken rn. will still be very good ofc and possibly unhealthy but i don't think it reaches the power level of the above mons.

:haunter:- i think defensive counterplay to this mon is still a bit lacking. especially now w miltank existing it has a mon it can easily abuse for free turns. ghost resists have only really evolved in the past month or so to eat poltergeists so most of these have a difficult time eating its hits. sub sets, specs, and scarf and are good. having shit like steelvally and rhydon does help quite a bit to check it, and we do have shit like triple axel sneasel, infiltrator cotton, and cincinno that can at least threaten it behind a sub. im not 100% convinced its healthy rn but i dont think it currently compares to above things.

:sneasel:- it definitely doesnt reach the power level of most of the other drops. there are def way more good defensive checks w shit like steelvally, persian-a, miltank, poliwrath, etc. its possible that it ends up being too much but rn it feels fine. time will tell.

:Sandslash-Alola:- awesome defensive utility w its ability to check the new drops. great support options in spin, sr, knock.
offensive sets are also dangerous w 2 snow warning mons for support, and feels balanced especially w the new bulky waters we have in the tier. rly good mon imo thats super good for the tier.

:clawitzer:- bulky waters check it well naturally but w grassy terrain terrain pulse it can be ridiculous to switch into. certainly has good offensive counterplay and i doubt its anywhere near broken w/o terrain support. only time will tell.

:cinccino:- seems like it will be decent. obviously its hard walled by steels but like ribombee it has plenty of nukes to partner with. it can also force a knock off on a lot of its checks to make it more difficult for them to stay healthy. great speed tier, but feels overshadowed by the new drops a bit. feels like a b+ kinda mon to me.

:mudsdale:- another new rocker is great to have. great bulk and ability to blanket check a lot of mons. not much else to say, but its def a welcome presence in the tier.

:whimsicott:- its worse in most ways compared to ribombee, as difference in damage output is pretty damn noticeable.
it does have nice utility in prankster and infiltrator so it still has a niche. i think this will become a dependable and solid option
in the tier as things settle.

:Frosmoth:- definitely a dangerous QD sweeper. however, its speed tier and coverage certainly enable passable defensive counterplay. alolaslash walls it to hell and back, fires beat it reliably, and it can be pressured offensively especially w its awful phys bulk. ive liked it a lot so far and i think it will be a very threatening but balanced mon in the tier.

:Ninetales:- i think this is a bit overshadowed by other drops but i think it will be rly good once everything settled. good speed tier, special bulk, and cool coverage in fire blast/eball/scorching sands. sub also lets it set up easily on passive mons.

bulky waters- :poliwrath: :gastrodon: :jellicent:- all will find a niche in the tier i think. nice to have much more variety in bulky waters and all of them have their own nice aspects. defensive sets all seem solid but itll be interesting to see how jelli and poli utilize offensive sets as well

:silvally-steel:- steelvally was already in the tier, it mostly does the same shit it did. great check to many of the new drops and solid speed tier. sd sets seem kinda bad now but defog pivots are good and special work up seems like a nice corebreaker still

:rhydon:- the only tauros switchin in the tier other than like colbur runerigus and sableye. does the same shit its always done in nu. eat hits from physical attackers, fires off powerful attacks, sets up rocks. not much to discuss other than its gonna be good and welcome in the tier.

???

:sableye:- seems like it can be an ok spinblocker and check to a few threatening things, but the issue is we just got out of a meta where dark types were king and a bunch of new fairies dropped. it beats tauros which is neat, but other than that i honestly have no idea how good this is going to be long term.

:runerigus:- this mon feels weirdly bad. perhaps a lot of it is because it just gets abused by most of the drops but it just feels like a worse golurk to me. perhaps defensive sets will show merit but frankly i have no idea how good its going to be. it has nice options like wisp, polter, and eq but the lack of immediate power and recovery kinda suck for it. perhaps iron defense sets will be good on it tho, and a rocker that can spinblock is certainly useful

:aromatisse:- i think this will be way better when the tier settles more. rn basically all the drops beat its defensive sets, but i imagine it becomes a nice option for stall. offensively, it looks very threatening on trick room builds but it def misses having z moves, and the lack of mystical fire means creme competes with it in an offensive role. i think it will end up being decent but right now it feels a bit lackluster in comparison to the other new mons.

:galvantula:- it just feels like a worse compromise between the speed of ribombee and the power of vikavolt. somehow the speed tier feels disappointing. i imagine this is another mon that will be WAY better when the tier settles but rn its just overshadowed by everything else

:pincurchin:- thwakey is 100% the better terrain setter. dont think there's much else to say, i dont think this mon has a niche in the tier rn.

:corsola-galar:- frankly i dont think this mons going to be any good in the tier. it faces a ton of competition from other bulky ghosts like cof, sableye, and rune defensively, which offer similar or more support without the crippling passivity. i think itll have a niche on stall eventually as a rocker but i cant see much else of a role for it.

BIG EFFECTS ON OLD MONS-

:Stunfisk-Galar:- this thing checks most of the drops well enough. its a little awkward as a steel type that doesnt resist ice but luckily we have other options that partners well enough with it to cover that issue.

:Miltank:- access to thick fat is huge since it can help keep the ices and ninetales in line. still looks like a really good option for balance and fatter builds, just with new mons its able to check.

:Basculin:- we just got a shitton of water resists and immunities, and its speed tier is nowhere near as good now. this mon just got way less scary.

:Sandaconda:- way more competition from other rockers, especially considering it loses to like all of the new drops. coil is still cool, but w the new bulky waters and offensive mons that outspeed or eat its hits at +1 and OHKO it it just got way worse as well.

:Wishiwashi:- w all the new bulky waters in the tier, this mon has so much more competition for a teamslot. lanturn has elec immunity + volt switch to give itself a firm niche over the others but to me wishi's niche becomes "bulky water than has momentum move and isnt weak to ground" which makes it much less easier to justify for a teamslot.

there are certainly other existing mons that the drops have just as big an impact on, these are just ones that stood out to me. interested to hear other's thoughts on the new mons and old
 
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Since this is the true wave of DLC mons to arrive in NU, I felt it worth to write out some thoughts before the few weeks of voting start and the meta truly takes shape. So here goes (no specific order, just sorta sub sections as I went along).



:ss/Ninetales: After months of begging for a special fire, NU has been gifted Ninetales! This is probably the drop I'm happiest about, as I have no fear that it's by any means broken, but I'm confident that it will surface as a top meta pick. Ninetales has great speed which inches past the Silvallys, Basculin, and non-scarf Haunter and Togedemaru (where wish toge is probably going to pick up some popularity now). It also has access to Nasty Plot and despite the loss of Drought and resulting inability to use solar beam, it can fall back on Energy ball to work through usual fire checks in Gastro, Jelli and Quag. Scorching Sands is a cool option for opposing Ninetales/Rapidash and also being able to touch Drampa, but Substitute is surfacing as a great 4th slot for setting up on slow passive resisted mons like Clefairy. Additionally, Ninetales has appreciable special bulk and can act as a soft check to other threats that came with the shift that are otherwise difficult to deal with like Specs Ribombee/Whismicott and Frosmoth. Overall I'm stoked happy about this fire's arrival in NU and see it becoming an important mon to be aware of.

:ss/Cinccino: Cinccino brings good speed and a versatile movepool to abuse skill link with, along with good team-assisting offensive moves like U-Turn and Knock off, but lacks high power without band and still can't touch steels. Although it can break through physical checks with coverage such as Rhydon with bullet seed, I forsee Cincinno running into issues due to the tier regaining Steelvally and probably increasing reliance on Stunfisk-G, and Magneton to check Duraludons. As well Mudsdale's arrival in NU doesn't help Cincinno's case as it can switch in to even supereffective multi-hit moves and rack up defense boosts from stamina, threatening back with Body Press. Seems overall like a middle of the pack mon.


:ss/Clawitzer: Amazing power coming from this cannon, and with Thwackey being a common pick that allows Terrain Pulse to hit a disturbing total power of 195, it will have an easy time blasting bulky water switchins. It's cool that it gets flip turn but the shift brought more water absorbers like Gastro and Jelli so hard to say whether Claw will make great use of it. A mid viable mon if I had to guess.

:ss/Pincurchin: as cool as electric terrain became in RU with an abuser like Raichu-Alola (before it was banned), my inclination is to say that it won't be quite the same in NU. Psychic terrain is a no go here and Grassy Terrain is at least somewhat common. Although Pincurchin itself is a cool mon that can abuse the terrain a bit, we lack other abusers outside of Jolteon who is sadly never as good as anyone wishes, and the drop we just got in Galvantula, who already has Thunder to abuse without worrying about setting terrain. There may be some gimmicky use of this but without something that has the insane speed and coverage that Raichu-A had, I doubt we'll see much of this mon.

:ss/Sandslash-Alola: I think this mon will be a solid A mon. It looks to be really versatile, able to set spikes or SR and rapid spin as well, and having a speed tier where the speed boost can come in handy is nice. As well it has good physical defense and offense, and Despite 4x weaknesses to fighting and fire, Ice/Steel grants most of the useful resistances of steel type, and gives a useful dual STAB to check and threaten many mons that just dropped down on us like Ribombee, Whimsicott and Frosmoth. Top all this off with access to Swords Dance and Slush Rush, and remembering that we have not 1 but 2 (for now) Hail Setters in the tier, Alolaslash has good potential as a sweeper as well.

:ss/Sableye: Sableye is just a great pokemon, with prankster encore/willowisp and recover, and only a weakness in fairy, it was one of the most consistently annoying mons in RU to deal with. The issue for it here is that it came alongside a few powerful Fairies, and into a tier where we have some popular dark type threats that it can't really do anything to at all due to prankster, namely Silvally-Dark, Persian Alola and Skuntank. I'm sure it will still see some use and you bet you'll be getting burned by this little rascal at some point, but I don't think it will be as rampant here as it was in RU before.


Ok now for the big groups...


:ss/Duraludon:, :ss/Drampa:, :ss/Exeggutor-Alola: - The "Dragon Nukes" as they've been dubbed...

Duraludon has Insane breaking power with Draco Meteor, Flash Cannon coverage for fairies and thunderbolt/dark pulse as coverage picks. Decent speed lets timid tie with Toxicroak and Sawk and sets it apart offensively from the other two dragon nukes. Specs is going to be the most threatening set with limited switch ins, while Iron defense+ body press will probably be a popular choice for those who want to deal instant damage to stunfisk-G, magneton and other steel switch-ins. Duralu also can function as a great suicide lead with rocks and a massive Steel Beam to fire off.

Exeggutor-Alola, having 2 super high power options in Draco Meteor and Leaf Storm is incredibly hard to switch into, and has options for common would-be defensive counterplay like Ferroseed with Fire coverage. While some of these offensive points set it apart from Duraludon in some way, Grass/Dragon is a typing that gives a lot of weaknesses like to Common moves like U-Turn, Ice moves, and Poison moves from mons like Toxicroak, Skuntank and Haunter. These drawbacks will make picking between the dragons more difficult. Eggy brings extra utility in ability to be a Trick Room setter.

Drampa was extremely good before it got stolen by RU. With more power and coverage similar to Eggy-A, Drampa will set itself apart with two useful abilities. Sap sipper allows Drampa to add both grass and ghost immunities along with elemental resistance to a team, while Berserk + Roost sets will be able to rack up Special Attack boosts and unleash. Because the added fairies will keep pressure on fighting picks like Gallade and Sawk, it remains to be see whether the fairies and other new mons like Frosmoth will be able to keep it in check. Drampa also brings the utlity of Glare and Defog as options.

Overall, all three of these Pokemon may end up being overwhelming to the tier, and it is hard to say whether the fairies that came along with them are enough to keep them in check.


The Buglectrics, :ss/Galvantula: :ss/Vikavolt: both which have good special attack , STABs and access to coverage like energy ball, and sticky webs.
Some things that differentiate them-
Galvantula: A great speed tier and compoundeyes make this thing a cool prospect especially for hyper offense lead with its ability to outspeed many leads. I see it being used on HO to set webs, thunder something and then die. Specs could probably also work but will have to see if that option would more typically go to Ribombee over Galve as a specs bug on fast offensive teams.
Vikavolt: More splashable than Galve due to excellent bulk, a ground immunity, and recovery in roost. This thing can take a hit and man can it also deliver one - its huge special attack more than makes up for not being able to spam Thunder like its arachnid brethren. Due to its assets Vika will certainly find homes on many BO and Balance builds. Sets will vary but Specs was part of the reason Vika was hard to deal with back when it got banned, and it has options to do at least 30-40% to most switch ins to its moves so hard to say what the meta will come up with to wall this bug.


:ss/Frosmoth: - The lord of lamps is upon us. Frosmoth has great special stats and a unique ability in ice scales that makes it a formidable tank. Its typing has some interesting resistances that will allow it to switch into things like leaf storms from Decidueye and Eggy-A (watch out for fire on that one) and stonewall some well known offensive powerhouses like Specs Abomasnow. Frosmoth has an awkward typing for a defensive mon with glaring weaknesses to fire and rock, however luckily these types are rarer in the NU roster. Frosmoth does have tools like giga drain to dispatch potential stone edge users like Rhydon after QDing, however it also came to NU alongside Ninetales who shuts it down quite fast and threatens a KO or set up. Sets including coverage options like Hurricane and Air Slash may be seen to deal with ninetales.



Bring on the Bulky Waters!!

:ss/Jellicent: - nice defensive glue mon that was very effective in RU, can usually effectively spread burns and shut down physical attackers with strength sap. Can see it checking sneasel with colbur and delivering a burn, but might not be able to effectively deal with silvally-dark before getting KO'd. May also struggle with some of our other offensive ghosts like Rotom, Haunter and Decidueye. Offensive Jelli-sets differentiate from other water options with grass coverage like giga drain.

:ss/Poliwrath: - I'm sticking Poliwrath here too because with Water Absorb and solid defensive stats with 90/95/90 bulk, this thing can actually effectively run phasing sets with Circle Throw/Toxic/Protect etc, as well as being another reason for basculin to decrease in popularity. It also functions as a supreme check to Sneasel who will now experience some 4MSS having to start carrying Psycho Cut in order to hurt this frog. One of my favourite additions though- solid physical offensive power and unique dual Stabs, various usable sets like Bulk up drain, scarf and others, and new tools in Close Combat and Darkest Lariat will set this water apart.

:ss/gastrodon: - While Quagsire will probably still inch out Gastro on more of the stall builds due to Unaware, having a mon that can actually turn its absorption of Water moves into a powered up scald or earth power is quite useful and will find a home on many Balance and BO builds. Otherwise Gastro brings much of the same that quag does as they share recover and typing benefits like an electric immunity. Still a welcome addition!



Free the Fairies!!

After long enough with complete reliance on Clefairy and Alcremie, we see an influx of fairies...

:ss/Aromatisse: - Tisse is a thick wish passer sure but I feel as though it will still face competition as a defensive passer from NU's beloved Clefairy as they are both slow and have similar bulk in the end, but Clefairy has access to teleport. An interesting point that sets Aromatisse apart is the ability to be more of a tank with solid 99 SpAtk and access to Nasty Plot and coverage options like thunderbolt and energy ball. Curious to see more exploration of its offensive potential.

:ss/Ribombee: and :ss/Whimsicott:
Bombee and Whimiscott are very similar in function, and on the side of Offensive sets I think Specs Ribombee is clearly taking the lead with slightly higher speed and substantially more power. They can do much of the same and have similar coverage options, and both have defog and tricking options like Trick and Switcheroo. A few things set them apart other than a slightly different typing; Ribombee has sticky webs, and could fit onto teams that want a webs setter but also could use a fairy typing. Whimsi on the other hand has some interesting options with Prankster, Taunt and Encore, as well as with Sub-Toxic-Leech Seed sets that can work with both Prankster or Infiltrator. Whimsi also enjoys being a prankster than can dunk on Dark types with a fat Moonblast.

While QD Ribombee seems like it can't find proper setup opportunities, Specs Ribombee is very hard to switch into outside of a small handful of mons like Ninetales who doesn't love taking that much chip, and its overwhelming speed seems a bit much for the tier. Specs Ribombee does have more counterplay than Decidueye did when there were complaints of Specs Decidueye's brokenness - while Decid really only had Miltank stopping it, Bombee has Ferro, G-Fisk, Ninetales, Clef, etc.. These checks can be worn down after being used to switch in multiple times which does make dealing with Ribombee difficult.

If Ribombee were banned, Whimsicott would fill most of its roles to a lesser degree so at least the tier would have a fall back.



Release the Rockers!!

:ss/Rhydon: - Love this mon. My favourite rocker from SS returns! Rhydon has great offensive presents and dual STABS as well as checks a lot of physical attackers that don't pack water or grass coverage. Swords dance makes this thing very threatening as well within a single turn. Will surely be one of our most popular rockers again and despite its exploitable weaknesses, this mon should not be underestimated.

:ss/Mudsdale: - This horse is going to take up the usage of Sanda and Piloswine a fair bit, with great bulk, freedom to carry leftovers, better attack and an amazing ability in Stamina. It is a useful blanket check for many mons and can also make excellent use of Body press with boosts from Stamina. With proper wish support Mudsdale can be quite difficult to take down and I'm sure it will be a staple pick for a variety of builds.

:ss/Runerigus: - basically our "type" replacement for Golurk, but all they have in common is that and stealth rock. Rune is slow, not as powerful as golurk, and has similar bulks to Cofa but its ground typing doesn't exactly help out its defensive cause in most cases. It did get a nice tool in poltergeist, and I could see it paving the way for more Trick room teams with all the other slow, powerful mons that we got. Probably will end up being a low-viability mon though, sadly, especially in a tier long dominated by its ghostly broski Cofag.


Not the NUBLS!!

It's been great to have these guys back to be honest and with a less "tight" meta, most of them don't seem nearly as broken as they used to be.

:ss/Gallade: - Psychic/Fighting is such a desirable stab combo for this tier for muscling through usual fighting checks like Garb and Weezing. The presence of new fairies especially faster ones like Whimsi and Bombee won't do Gallade any favours and I don't think it will be regarded as broken anymore. It is still a great wallbreaker and versatile to boot with SD vs choice sets. A solid and welcome addition back.

:ss/Kingler: still seems quite dangerous in general, but is much less broken for a main reason that Double dance Kingler has a bit of a moveset conundrum; Due to the addition of Poliwrath and Jellicent both, Kingler is forced to chose 1 of 2 options (Superpower for Wrath, Knock Off for Jelli). Nevertheless this mon becomes dangerous quickly and we'll need to see more use out of it to gauge its full potential now.

:ss/Tauros: - is as insane as it was when it was quickbanned. We gained a few mons that outspeed it slightly that can be offensive checks, but this thing getting throat chop really made it hard to check, with even defensive staples like Cofa taking ~40% from it on switch in. Really all we got that can check it defensively is Mudsdale, while other defensive mons we got still easily fold to multiple attacks. While it may compete with Kanga which rose to the top as our Normal wallbreaker in August, Tauros' is still as great as ever and it probably is the most "broken" of the returned mons.

:ss/Vanilluxe: - Ice cream is welcomed back as an offensive hail/veil setter and special attacker, with many more defensive/offensive checks than before. I think its mostly safe to say that it isn't really broken anymore but definitely still a high rank mon that can do serious damage as well as can be paired with Alola-Sandslash to good effect.

:ss/Sneasel: - Sneasel is still a fast and strong attacker with stab priority and a fat stab knock off, and the Band set is still quite threatening. Outside of Poliwrath, Steelvally and Persian alola or Avalugg, there isn't too much that likes to stand in front of this thing still . It is still a glass cannon but it is hard to think of total counterplay that Sneasel can't at least lay a bit of hurt on. I'm not certain where this mon stands really but it seems less broken than before for sure.

:ss/Haunter: - Haunter... I really do love Haunter but I think if it does stay around again it will just end up on every team again, opening a cycle of people running more scarf haunters to outspeed specs and sub disable haunters and then yeah, Haunter meta again. Overall counterplay to haunter is still a bit hit and miss, and sub disable set manages to find a lot of opportunities to switch in for free, sub up, and then wreak havoc. Part of me wants to it to stay around but I'm not sure its the healthiest mon especially in an expanded tier with more to explore.


And that's a wrap! In summary, this has been an amazing shift that has completely recharged and changed NU. I'm very excited to learn what is in store for our tier through these changes.
 
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shiloh

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hey just to keep everyone updated, council will be having a vote over the next ~24 or so hours, to vote on a slate of mons that council members have nominated. im going to go over the noms in this post, and i encourage anyone who wants to to post about them.

:drampa:Drampa
the first of the dragons nominated, drampa was in the tier for a while before it shifted up to ru a few months ago. even back then there were plenty of calls for it to be voted on, as its high special attack alongside its good typing and coverage makes it very hard to switch into. the main thing holding it back is its low speed, but thats somewhat mitigated by the fact that it can afford to invest into its bulk, and due to that doesnt mind taking hits in order to get kos.​

:duraludon:Duraludon
another one of the dragons, dura is a new drop to the tier, after spending a majority of ss in ru. offering an additional steel typing that allows it to pressure fairies like clefairy and aromatisse, alongside more support oriented tools like stealth rock, dura has become one of the better mons in the tier. it also has a better speed tier than the other two dragons on this list, which allows it to play a more offensive role, and can fit on teams that arent worried about losing momentum when it has to come in. its main issues stem from its lack of coverage options, with its only way to hit steel typings being body press, or by getting minimal chip with a move like thunderbolt.​

:exeggutor-alola:Exeggutor-Alola
the final dragon on this list, eggy-alola was a common sight in nu last generation, and it has returned this generation and is already pushing the power levels of the tier up. with two high powered stab moves to back it up, both draco meteor and leaf storm are every easily spammed, and it is able to hit steel types with flamethrower, making it hard to switch into when its clicking the right move. while its base speed may be an issuee for some mons, eggy does have access to trick room as well, allowing it to be a standalone sweeper if desired. its typing also allows it to switch into the numerous ground types & water types in the tier.​

:frosmoth:Frosmoth
frosmoth is one of the more interesting new ss mons, and it comes with a unique ability in ice scales, which allows it to sponge special hits even with little investment. while it lacks a lot of coverage moves, as well as support moves, the ones it does have have pushed it to the top of the tier so far. quiver dance sets aree the main sets being run, and the combination of its high special attack, amazing special defense, and the boosting quiver dance provides makes it very hard to handle outside of a few select mons. as mentioned before however, its offensive moves basically boil down to its stabs, alongside giga drain and hurricane. while these do allow it to target water types that may otherwise deal with it, it leaves frosmoth with few tools to actually hit steel types & fire types, which means they have to be removed or chipped down before it can attempt a sweep.​

:haunter:Haunter
haunter is the first mon on this list that was banned earlier on in ss nu, and was actually one of the first bans of the tier overall. its been renominated due to the fact that its still one of the hardest mons to switch into, due to its good special attack, good speed, and great stab combination. ghost&poison is only resisted by skuntank in the tier, which makes its stabs extremely potent. while it is also very easy to revenge kill due to its low bulk, and the fact that since its ban there are now a lot more mons that are able to outpace it to revenge it, most of these mons still do not want to switch into it.​

:ribombee:Ribombee
another special attacker is up on the slate, with ribombee being the next mon up. currently the 4th fastest mon in the tier, ribombee is able to pull off a variety of roles in the tier, that range from full support like webs, but can be more offensive like quiver dance or specs. similar to frosmoth it struggles with a lack of good coverage options to threaten fire types&steel types, but it does have psychic to help offset the additional weakness to poison types that it would also have.​

:sneasel:Sneasel
another mon previously banned, sneasel has been dropped down again and is already on the chopping block. its great speed, combined with its good offensive typing are some of the reasons that it finds itself here once again. since its ban its also gained an additional tool in triple axel, that gives it a very strong ice stab to go alongside knock off and ice shard. similar to haunter it does have a problem with its frailty, but it does also have a much better speed tier when compared to haunter, as well as ice shard to let it pick off weakened scarfers or mons like ninjask/ribombee. it also does face issues with its attack when not used with a boosting item, but that is also offset by the fact it can use swords dance to boost it even further.​

:tauros:Tauros
the most recent ban on this list that was redropped, the reasons for tauros being nominated again are largely the same. the addition of throat chop&close combat to its movepool makes it much harder to counter/check when compared to previous generations. throat chop in particular being a dark move that gets the sheer force boost, and allows it to 2hko all ghosts in the tier aside from sableye. close combat as well gives it the ability to pressure steels/rocks even harder than earthquake could. its great speed, good ability, and now great coverage just makes it an all together good mon, that is once again seeing itself nominated for a ban.​

:vikavolt:Vikavolt
the last mon on the list is also a mon that was once in nubl, vikavolt finds itself on the chopping block again. the addition of heavy duty boots this generation gives vikavolt a huge tool that allows it to pivot a lot more reliably than it has been able to in the past. its amazing special attack is backed with two good stabs, as well as a strong pivoting move in volt switch and coverage to hit ground types in energy ball. it also has roost to further add to its longevity, as well as a very good support move in sticky web.​
---

like said at the start of this post, these votes will likely be taking place over the next 24 or so hours, so i if you guys have any thoughts on these mons, i implore you to post now if you havent earlier in this thread.
 

Finchinator

You're so golden
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OU & NU Leader
It is I, the transparencynator. Here to serve my beloved NU community with my thoughts as a councilmen.

The dragon counterplay the tier has right now is insufficient. :Drampa: hits like nothing else in the tier and can realistically claim a kill each time it gets in safely. Nothing is able to escape a 2HKO that is used and despite a mediocre speed tier, it has some crucial resistances and immunities that allow entry on a semi-regular basis. :Exeggutor-Alola: is almost as strong with arguably superior coverage and some more speed/versatility -- I put it in the same boat. :Duraludon: is another wrecking ball. It has virtually no special bulk, but it has the best defesnsive typing and speed of the bunch. Steel types wall it, which is cool, but we do not exactly have a surplus of those and rn the ones we do have are easily worn out or abused through other means, so I do not view this as a healthy Pokemon for the tier either.

:Tauros: is too fast and strong. It has great coverage and not many things are able to withstand a consistent assault from it. I feel like if we had a few more physically defensive staples, it may be a different story, but long behind us are the days of Slowbro and Steelix roaming free in NU unfortunately.

:Vikavolt: had no counters earlier this generation. Has no counters now. STABS and potentially Energy Ball are enough to overwhelm everything. It is strong, it has some nice resistances, Boots work well on it, and Agility enables lots of sweeping opportunities. Also, nothing that is neutral and unboosted OHKOs it I swear. It's actually hard to take out for some teams, which is an underrated aspect of a Pokemon seen as so strong already.

:Ribombee: I am on the fence about. It will probably go sooner or later, but I am yet to see it do much. I think other threats are hogging the spotlight and right now it is predominantly functioning in revenge killing roles rather than thriving offensively as a pure threat.

:Sneasel: and :Haunter: are not broken yet imo. This can change, but I find both easy enough to check and Sneasel also is weak when it runs boots.

:Frosmoth: I nommed, but I regret it now. I got swept by one yesterday and nominated it, but I do not view it as an issue the more I build and play honestly. Oops

:Ninjask: needs to stop being spammed on the ladder :blobtriumph:
 

GW

I may be warrior
is a Tiering Contributor
- Drampa was a huge issue back when it got banned with no real ways of beating it with even SpDef Clefairy having a chance to get 2hko'd by Specs Hyper Voice thanks to its base 135 special attack. This dragon behemoth has Sap Sipper to hold back the grass ghosts in our tier and can check a lot of our special attackers and passive mons. I would not be surprised with a ban here due to how annoying it can be for most teams to try and handle this, I would probably be pro ban here.

- Duraludon is the fastest of the 3 dragon types dropped from RU/freed from NUBL. Its dragon steel typing allows it to fire off dragon type moves while also pressuing fairy types with ease thanks to Flash Cannon and boasting a great option to even hit steel types with body press. It can run iron defense to nuke steels at +2 defense or just run an offensive stealth rock set and still do plenty of damage. Duraludon honestly might be even more busted, at least offensively, and should for sure be banned as well.

- We now have the last of the super good dragon types, Alolan Exeggutor. On paper, it is nearly impossible to switch into and is a nice ground immune. However, I feel like in practice, getting in Alolan Exeggutor is a pain unless vs something like Sandaconda, which does not seem to even be that popular in this meta. Even bulky water types can run speed + ice beam for Eggy, and pokemon like Wishiwashi and Mudsdale can easily scout out what move you will go for if specs. Also, wanting to come in on electric attacks when it is not even an elec immune can be very frustrating and just loses all of your momentum. While I think that Alolan Exeggutor is kinda insane, the most potential it might have is using trick room and hoping the opponent does not have a well played clefairy. I would vote no ban for now.

- Frosmoth is easily one of the scariest set up sweepers right now and it is nearly impossible to KO with any special attack on this planet thanks to ice scales. Most teams rely on Clefairy or Gastrodon as their special defense wall and both of those get dunked on by sub quiver dance. Even something like Silvally Steel can get worn down by ice beam, especially if you have a fairy or dragon type on your team to have additional pressure vs steels. Frosmoth is something that I do not think anyone wants to deal with and I don't think much more needs to be mentioned here. Plz ban.

- Haunter is a very scary and fast special attacker that can hit literally all of our walls for neutral or super effective damage. It is a very nice scarfer as well with a speed stat higher than Silvally and the ability to trick walls such as Miltank or Stunfisk. Its main setback is how frail it is, especially on the physical side. I think that Haunter is borderline broken and would not be surprised to see it go.

- Ribombee is a huge presence in the new metagame, especially considering there were 0 offensive fairies before this month's shifts and there aren't a ton of reasons to use Whimsicott over it. It gets access to U-Turn, Tailwind, Energy Ball, and Sticky Web as coverage moves and support options. However, ribombee is very frail and can't really switch into much and has no real way to deal damage to steel types like Stunfisk Galar. I do not think it is comparable to Duraludon, who can deal > 50% to anything, but it is definitely a centralizing threat that might be banned due to being a big boon to frosmoth and sticky web teams.

- Sneasel was easily one of the most broken mons when it got banned a few months ago with knock off + icicle crash putting a ton of pressure on everything that is looking to switch into this monster. With the tier shifts, we do have a defensive answer in Poliwrath and Persian-Alola, who did not exist when Sneasel was in the tier, and Ribombee to check. I think that whether or not to ban comes down to how well Sneasel can wear down its physically defensive walls and offensive scarf checks because after a physical wall like Weezing getting worn down, a swords dance set can easily come in and clean with a Swords Dance. I would probably vote ban.

- Tauros is just insane in every way possible. It has sheer force life orb for ghost types, Superpower for steels, Rock Climb to do like 60% to neutral silvally, a speed stat that allows it to outrun every offensive threat except for Ribombee and Sneasel, both of which can't KO Tauros 1v1 and get blown back. Other than having a Sableye on every team, this pokemon is far too much to deal with and needs to get banned now.


- Vikavolt is something that I expected to stay in RU tbh, but whatever. This mon is similar to Galvantula, but is more practical due to far better bulk and access to Roost. It can check just about every silvally forme and beat all of the common rockers 1v1 while also only really getting stopped by SpDef Togedemaru. If every team has to run Spdef Toge just to not get momentum sapped by Volt Switch or blown away by Bug Buzz, then that should say a lot about Vika's chances of staying. It is definitely borderline busted and should most likely go.
 
I'm gonna keep this short, but I'd advise only banning 2-4 things for the time being. While there is no doubt that some stuff may be problematic in the future, I believe that banning too many mons at once might not be too good considering they all help break for each other. I'd only want to ban the most problematic stuff, which are tauros, vikavolt, drampa, and eggy alola. I consider these 4 to be the most problematic mons in the metagame and are a cut above the rest in terms of their wall breaking ability. While stuff like duraludon and haunter may be problematic, I'd like to see how the metagame adapts to their presence rather than having to deal with so many top threats at once as they have very poor bulk in at least 1 stat. Both ribombee and frosmoth i feel are very good just from the fact that strong stuff like tauros and vikavolt pressure thier checks, so with them gone they'd be more manageable.

tl;dr: Only ban tauros, vikavolt, drampa, and eggy alola for the time being, and see how the metagame adapts to the remaining threats as i feel they are more manageable than the four I'd vote ban for. If stuff like duraludon and haunter still are problematic even after this wave of bans, then they can be voted on next slate. I guess I'd like to say that banning too many things at once isn't that good of an idea, as we should wait to see how the meta adapts to the remaining threats.
 
My thoughts:

definitely ban - tauros, eggy-a, drampa, duraludon

:tauros:

Tauros is super fast, strong, and has excellent coverage. Outside of Sableye, it's very difficult to find something that can reliably switch into Tauros throughout the match - CC punishes Steel-types, Throat Chop for ghosts, and Body Slam covers all your bases, with fourth move options being (in order) Work Up to break through neutral walls, EQ/ZHB for Poison-types (eq also bypasses rocky helmet shenanigans), and Toxic for Sableye/Quagsire.

Even things like Phys Def Mudsdale (which lacks recovery) take 40 from Body Slam and thus can't switch in more than once; phys def Eldegoss is 2HKOd by Body Slam. Just exceptional neutral power. Walls like Clefairy and Aromatisse could have a better shot if able to run phys def spreads, but the super scary dragon-types rn make them invest in spdef. This could be an argument that Tauros is OK without the dragons, but even then you can do stuff like Toxic them, Work Up and break them, or just set 1 spike and KO them.

:drampa: :exeggutor-alola: :duraludon:* Now thinking DnB for duraludon, check davon and your__bro's posts for p good explanations of why it isn't the same level of threat

The Dragon-type counterplay in this tier is really bad, and these 3 all have the power to punch through neutral targets with Specs sets and their dual STABs. Duraludon is the worst against Steels, but even then it can run Body Press (or even IDef + BPress) to break through them (or it can just exploit their lack of recovery and keep Draco-ing them). The other two get Fire coverage, and their secondary STABs can all beat the tier's Fairies.

It is possible to offensively pressure Drampa and Exeggutor-A due to their low speed and average bulk; however, this is really the only way to stop them, and that pushes the meta so far towards offense. I've found it really nice that every style from HO to Stall is viable in NU this gen, and these absurdly powerful Dragon-types completely invalidate balance and stall, making them ban-worthy.

on the fence - sneasel, ribombee, haunter

:sneasel:
This tier doesn't have great Ice-type resists, and those that do resist Ice are generally either steels that fall to Low Kick or bulky waters that are crippled by Knocked Off. That is to say, very few Pokemon (niche mons like Avalugg and Poliwrath) can switch into both of CB Sneasel's STABs. However, Sneasel struggles due to really wanting to switch moves so that it isn't rendered useless with a wrong guess... but being unable to have enough power if it opts for Boots (or dying so fast if LO). SD avoids this problem, but without CB you need to double pretty well to force the switches needed to get a boost. It also gets few opportunities to switch in due to being SR weak and not bulky, so a wrong guess can really make it fall flat. But is a guessing game around which STAB it will click uncompetitive?
In addition, Triple Axel is punishable super well by Rocky Helmet, which makes it take 50% chip; that item isn't too hard to fit on teams, but is making them sacrifice a moveslot too much?
I'm not sure. This is a close one, leaning Ban

:ribombee:
Having more Steel-types (and Ninetales) in the tier now really helps switch into Moonblast, but most of them don't have recovery. Psychic coverage + its speed tier are also great to pick apart bulky offenses once their steel-type is worn down. However, despite their lack of recovery, not having neutral coverage for steels is extremely annoying. Like Sneasel, bee is also a frail mon that gets few opportunities to switch in; compared to Sneasel, though, it is weaker against neutral targets. While not being as Priority-weak and having other tools such as Trick & Stun Spore is nice, it's definitely less overbearing. Leaning DnB

:haunter:
similar to the above except slower, frailer (but not SR weak), and without a boosting move - but with better coverage and power. Its stabs have great neutral coverage due to the lack of ghost resists. Compared to Ribombee's 95 base SpAtk, its 115 SpAtk is very impressive. Leaning Ban (sorry this explanation kinda sucked)

do not ban (they could end up being too good without the banned mons in the meta, but id wait and see rather than banning now) - frosmoth, vikavolt

:frosmoth:
Pretty much every revenge killer in the tier takes care of this, giving it a very poor MU against offense and even balance with a steel-type + physical scarfer (which, again, is most scarfers). Steels lack recovery but, again, this can't even hit them neutrally.
From this mon's heyday in RU as a mon with like 85% tour winrate, I know it can be dangerous to fat teams. (Sub+QD in particular could be a threat). However, I want to see whether fat teams can handle it when they don't have to worry about getting nuked by the busted Dragon-types.

:vikavolt:
Imo, its low speed means it can't force out stuff it doesn't hit super effectively - it's strong, for sure, but neutral attacks aren't OHKOing mons in this fairly bulky tier. It does beat the volt switch blockers with EBall but that momentum gain isn't new; something like, say, specs rotom-n is also hard for ground-types to switch into, and while vika does get recovery and can annoy teams that way it's a lot slower. we have a lot of good bulky special walls and a lot of faster offensive pivots to limit the opportunities it has to wreak havoc. Its ability to pivot on special walls like Aromatisse and go into a breaker could be very potent vs fat teams (though, then again, they may have Stunfisk-G as their volt blocker and just be all good vs vika). However, I;d like to wait and see about this until the most overpowered breakers are removed.


Lotta words. Thanks for reading this, peace
 
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Mariannabelle

chill guy
is a Tiering Contributor
I know I already posted, but there's a couple of critters on the list that I didn't specifically mention, so I guess I'll put my thoughts on them.

1599273927471.png
Broken, I don't need to beat this dead horse. Please Ban.

1599274074205.png
1599274085988.png
Personally, I've seen a lot more neckboi than Drampa on the ladder. As far as reliable counterplay goes, there basically isn't any. If either of these guesses correctly, something dies, and I can't bring myself to say that's healthy, despite the ease of offensively checking them. I tend toward yes-ban on these.

1599274248847.png
I can't make my mind up about this one. I've been caught saying it's healthy one day and saying it's busted on another day. It has the tools to break past its supposed checks, like Body Press, but those checks are also still matching it pound for pound or even outdamaging it. For example, Stunfisk-G can run Earth Power for a near OHKO, and random, uninvested Flamethrowers or Ice Beams from Silvally-Steel are solid 3HKO's. I'm very much on the fence, and would probably tend toward no-ban, but it's a very flimsy no-ban if you get what I mean.

1599276252405.png
Oddly enough, I haven't seen it very much while laddering. However, I can see its on-paper capabilities, and I've seen some replays, and I've read what others have had to say about it. I think that it's problematic and tend toward yes-ban.

1599276410739.png
This thing is easy to offensively check on paper, but in practice it tends to force switches and use that turn to set up a Substitute, then use the combination of its STABS and a support move like Disable or Encore to make life a pain. That, in combination with the difficulty that defensive counterplay presents, leads me to lean toward yes-ban.

1599276665395.png
It's fast and has good STABS, but honestly, it's not the offensive behemoth that I expected. We have plenty of physically defensive stuff like Gastrodon that dodges the 2HKO, even from Band Sneasel. It really isn't that strong. Heck, even Ninjask sets have a solid chance to dodge a OHKO from Band Sneasel, and Ribombee needs to be half dead before it has a chance to die to Ice Shard. This is all keeping in mind that Sneasel is very prone to residual damage if it forgoes the boots. I'm not convinced that this thing is too problematic, and I'm strongly leaning toward no-ban.

1599277241938.png
There isn't much to say about this one, if you ask me. There's plenty of offensive and defensive counterplay available. Offensively, it's checked by the likes of Ninetales, Rapidash, Silvally-Steel, Sandslash-A, Ninjask (still outspeeds a +1 moth), and a lot of those can switch in multiple times. As far as purely defensive play goes, Thick Fat Miltank, fat Togedemaru, Flareon are all solid options. Frosmoth's only crime is tearing apart teams that want to crutch on extremely passive special attackers, and I am absolutely no-ban on Frosmoth.

1599277605061.png
In my opinion, it's in the same boat as Frosmoth. Straight up- we have counterplay. The offensive checks I mentioned for Frosmoth are all valid against Ribombee, and it's still walled by fat Togedemaru, spDef Aromatisse, Flareon, sp.Def Sandslash-Alola. SpDef Ferroseed, Stunfisk-Galar, and so on and so forth. Even if Specs clicks Trickeroo, that just means that it's suddenly a lot less powerful and still just as flimsy. We have counterplay to Ribombee, we have good counterplay to Ribombee, and I say no ban.

--------------
ADDENUM:
1599278618468.png
needs to stop being spammed on the ladder :blobtriumph:
september top ladder.png

LMAOOOO
 

Attachments

:drampa: Drampa's speed tier is the main factor why I think it shouldn't be banned. If Drampa wants to wall-break then it needs Choice Specs, which can essentially be a coinflip not necessarily in Drampa's favor because both of its STABS have immunities. There are currently plenty of ghost and fairy types in the tier so it's not really difficult to prepare for Drampa, it naturally happens. If it opts for HDB then its wall-breaking potential is severely hampered because it isn't getting the OHKOs it wants, and its bulk + speed tier means it is 2HKO'd by alot of the tier. I think Drampa could actually be healthy for the tier. DO NOT BAN.

:duraludon: Duraludon is a very potent Stealth Rocker. Its dual STAB + Body Press has really great coverage. With Eject Pack it gets instant momentum when it clicks Draco Meteor, however Intimidate and Parting Shot can really annoy Eject Pack sets. I'm not convinced it's broken at the moment, there are other wall-breakers at its speed tier or faster that are even more potent. DO NOT BAN.

:exeggutor-alola: Exeggutor-Alola could ravage the tier with its STAB coverage + Flamethrower, much like Drampa, but its speed leaves a lot to be desired. Compared to Drampa, it's essentially better in almost every way. Its grass STAB is more spammable than Drampa's Hyper Voice, especially since Miltank is better off running Thick Fat now. It's faster than Rhydon and Vikavolt which is really good for its wall-breaking. Eggy even has sweeping potential with Trick Room. ABSTAIN, LEANING TOWARDS BAN.

:frosmoth: Frosmoth is the reason why special scarfers are bad. After a Quiver Dance it walls basically every special attacker and outspeeds a majority of the metagame. It can even cheese past Ninetales (one of the better offensive checks) with Air Slash because it just needs one 30% flinch with Air Slash or Fire Blast dodge, Ninetales needs to land 2 Fire Blasts. Luckily, there are plenty of good steel types to keep Frosmoth in check, and for this reason, I think Frosmoth is DO NOT BAN.

:haunter: I'm not sure where I stand with Haunter. Its dual STAB is very difficult to wall, only resisted by Skuntank. I think there are enough poison and ghost switch-ins alone which makes choice sets kinda sub-optimal. There's enough multi-hit moves in the metagame to keep Substitute + Disable sets in check. I think Haunter's most potent set is Life Orb with Destiny Bond, which fits almost exclusively on Hyper Offense. For the moment DO NOT BAN.

:ribombee: Ribombee's combination of speed, fairy STAB, and support options let Ribombee sweep, or at least disrupt the metagame. It has been mentioned before, but offensive fairies are unprecedented in NU, so maybe with some time the metagame can adapt. I think its wallbreaking + team support is a little too good for NU, BAN.

:sneasel: Sneasel is just as potent as ever, and with Triple Axel it could only get better. It's weak without a Swords Dance boost, so maybe that warrants do not ban? Even with Choice Band it can't 2hko offensive Silvally-Steel (or any relevant Silvally form) with Knock Off, Its viability mainly comes down to its speed tier. We also gained Poliwrath as a strong counter to Sneasel. DO NOT BAN.

:tauros: Tauros in my opinion is broken. Its speed tier combined with its coverage and power just makes it too much for the tier. The only reliable switch-in is Sableye (and Mudsdale?). The amount of switches it forces is ridiculous. Even bulky Rhydon is 3hko'd by Close Combat. I don't think there's enough counterplay to Tauros. It's hampered by Sticky Web, but I still don't think it's healthy for the tier. BAN.

:vikavolt: Vikavolt is another slow wall-breaker we inherited with the tier shift. I think there's a good case for it to be banned because it's just really good at wall-breaking unless the opponent has spdef Togedemaru. With Volt Switch it gets instant momentum because there's not much that can block it without suffering from Bug Buzz or Energy Ball. It also provides Sticky Web which is really good despite HDB. ABSTAIN, LEANING TOWARDS BAN.
 

Danny

formerly daniYSB
is a Tiering Contributor
Let’s talk about the meta at the moment. I personally love it, and love the new team building opportunities The new fast paced games as well as the great balance on balance games that I have played have been extremely enjoyable. That being said, there are a few mons that are definitely not conducive to the meta no matter how many defensive drops we may have, there are a few must bans that we need to get rid of ASAP.
PS: Doing this on mobile so no fancy gifs or whatever.

Tauros- Ban again. And again. And maybe once more. This mon sucks, as in it sucks for the meta. LO 4 attacks shits on the entire meta, it’s fast as hell and can even break through its best check in Sableye with the right team support. It limits team building and is too damn strong.

Eggy A- Ban for sure. It’s specs set is un walled in the meta, it is just fast enough to outspeed all the walls and spdef Alolan Sandslash, it has perfect coverage in Grass Dragon and Fire, and coming off a 125 SpA it is broken. There is no defensive counter play to it, and it really comes down to predicting right with it’s coverage. Not healthy at all, and even it’s ‘checks’ take a shit ton from it’s RESISTED STAB moves.

Drampa- I am leaning towards no ban on this one, mostly because it has not gotten a lot of usage and it’s slow ash. I can see why you would want it gone, but compared to the base power of Eggy A’s STAB moves, Hyper Voice hits a little too soft, no matter how ironic that may sound. I personally like it at the moment, maybe down the road it would be worth revisiting, but for now I am leaning No.

Duraludon- No ban on this one boys. It is strong and fast, I’ll give you that. It’s dual STAB is hard to switch in, fair. It’s drawback for me is it’s frailty. It drops to anything Special, and Steel types wall it easily. Do not bring up ID body press, that set sucks and is gimmicky at best. Healthy and manageable, we were all scared of it at first but there is plenty of counter play to it at the moment.

Frosmoth- A potent wall breaker and SpDef defogger, it is strong and easily sets up on most special attackers. Where it fails is it’s extreme physical frailty and the fact that it gets no real coverage for steel types. Also, fire types such as Ninetales, Rapidash, and Spdef Flareon check it easily. Not worth banning, and it adds a healthy win condition to many games.

Ribombee- Do NOT Ban. Let’s look at this clearly it’s. Why is it such an issue at the moment? Because it has the support of the Dragons/Frosmoth to help wear down the steel type checks to them. Once we lose a dragon or two, steel types will easily be able to focus all their energy at checking this and the moth, leaving them more breathing room to deal with this mon. Not unhealthy at all, wait and watch because it will not look half as scary when we lose the brokens.

Vikavolt- Leaning towards do not ban. This dude is strong. No questioning that. Good typing and ability, makes it only weak to fire and rock. Pair that with Eball that’s pretty damning. I only lean towards don’t ban because of the fact that no one is using it and we haven’t seen as much need to consider it in the builder at the current moment. Maybe down the road it could be an issue, but I just don’t see the impact that it has right now.

Haunter- Fuck this mon. I love it so much, but it causes me so much pain when I try using fat. Personally Substitute Disable Dual STAB is the best set, but it could run LO attacker or scarf if need be. There are little to no resists that immediately threaten it. Yeah it’s frail but it doesn’t need to be bulky to easily shred teams. Please ban.

Sneasel- Don’t ban. Not as scary as before, plenty of knock switch ins, and most scarfers revenge kill it. Not much to say about him because unless you completely disregard it in the builder you aren’t going to have many issues with it most of the time.

These are just my 2 cents on the issues, I have no power, just wanted to recommend what a ‘high ladder player’ feels about the current meta and the mons on the chopping block. Also stop hating on Ninjask he’s the GOAT don’t care. Mariannabelle converted me when I first joined the tier and I will stay a Jask advocate for life lol.
 
I can definitely get behind not banning Duraludon, it for sure seems manageable with general special walls since Steel doesn’t provide amazing coverage, making stuff like bulky waters (gastro in particular due to tbolt) decent switch-ins on top of the already embarassing inability to hit steels and ridiculous special frailness. your____bro Davon i’m now convinced to say Do Not Ban on Duraludon.
 
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