Metagame NP: NU Stage 3 - Rain On Me [Bans Post #87]

[kay]

So I actually have a bit of a hot take with Snorlax. I think while it is extremely strong, I think as the tier is right now we can manage with it being in the tier. Snorlax finally gives us some solid answers to things like specs Rib and Whims while also keeping their counter play of trick specs or u-turn a viable out to Snorlax so there's counter play on both sides for quite a few mons even just past these 2 which keeps them from being totally invalidated by Snorlax. CB isn't impossible to chip down and Curse sets are extremely vulnerable when forced to rest which can be exploited. And defensively we have answers with things like Sab or Gurdurr or even colbur Jellicent to taunt and toxic/wisp it.

But that's not really the main point of this post. I think the real interesting thing is how, with Snorlax in the tier, we now can look at some NUBL pokemon such as Drampa and Haunter and reintroduce them into the tier now that we have Snorlax in the tier which can keep them at bay. With such a powerful yet not totally overbearing wall now to play with we have options we didn't before that can let the tier really evolve in a way that it couldn't before which I think is a really relevant discussion point to have rather then just the usual "lax too good lets ban" post. I think there's real potential in keeping Snorlax here and reintroducing some power creep back into the tier.


EDIT: I'm not going to make a new post just to say this, but as a reply to the post below me re-read the first part I went over the lax counter play and I edited in a little more to hopefully make it a little more clear I think, in the current sate of nu, its a manageable threat not a must ban one. A lot of our offensive mons have counter play, we have defensive counter play, and on top of that it gives us room to look at our BL list again.

 

[Pabloaram]

So I actually have a bit of a hot take with Snorlax. I think while it is extremely strong, I think as the tier is right now we can manage with it being in the tier. Snorlax finally gives us some solid answers to things like specs Rib while also keeping Ribs counter play of trick specs a viable out to Snorlax so there's counter play on both sides for quite a few mons which keeps them from being totally invalidated by Snorlax. Defensively we have answers with things like Sab or Gurdurr or even colbur Jellicent to taunt and toxic/wisp it.

But that's not really the main point of this post. I think the real interesting thing is how, with Snorlax in the tier, we now can look at some NUBL pokemon such as Drampa and Haunter and reintroduce them into the tier now that we have Snorlax in the tier which can keep them at bay. With such a powerful yet not totally overbearing wall now to play with we have options we didn't before that can let the tier really evolve in a way that it couldn't before which I think is a really relevant discussion point to have rather then just the usual "lax too good lets ban." post. I think there's real potential in keeping Snorlax here and introducing some power creep back into the tier.

I think unbanning broken mons bc Lax exist is more like "broken check broken" mindset..
If Lax is too much for the tier he should be banned

 

[Monky25]

I definitely agree that we should give lax more time before we qb it as there are plenty of options to be looked at, we have stuff like gallade, sawk, gurdurr, specs aura sphere claw, poliwrath, sab, will-o-wisp colbur jellicent, mudsdale, trick users, and escavalier and cofag depending on its coverage. Im not saying its 100% manageable, but im saying we should flush out more options before we jump to ban. Look at duraludon, everyone thought it would break the tier but we gave it time and its fine now. I also support the unbanning/reevaluation of drampa, lax plus the high usage of mons that beat it like ribombee, gallade, sandslash-alola, and duraludon don't do it any favors, and drampa can sting lax if it doesnt go special while lax can take its attacks. Just saying that if lax is manageable, then we should look at stuff like drampa and maybe even haunter who will be limited by lax's presense in the tier.

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

i disagree that any of these mons are sufficient or reliable counterplay for lax unless you just stack a shitton of checks (gl doing that in less than 3 mons or using stall). lax literally has a way around every one of those pokemon just through curse sets. curse/bslam/rest/heat crash-darkest-tox allows lax to set up on many of these checks depending on the 4th. and that doesnt even factor in band sets which can pop many initial switchins for a lot of damage. in terms of really good, reliable (and splashable) switchins to it, we have like rest/ID/bpress cofagrigus (and only this exact set), gurdurr, and rocky helmet pain split weezing. there are other options as well like sableye and physdef resttalk poli, both of which are niche mons and sets. everything else can lose by either getting set up on or just by getting hit on the switch w the correct move.

this also doesn't factor in how the lax user plays: a good player using lax is not going to let ribombee trick it for free, or let it eat a specs aura sphere when it is capable of sweeping. furthermore, all of these posts have looked purely at how these pokemon handle lax in a vacuum. anyone building a lax team is going to be well prepped to switch into and chip the things that damage it, especially the fighters. The team i've been using on ladder honestly deals with lax fairly well- it has trick specs ribombee, helmet psplit weezing, and rotom. even with all of this lax still ends up being effective. the lax user can decide to trade his lax for my weezing so his scarf fighter can clean late game, it can force me to sack bee to trick it when i want it late game, and it can do a ton of damage to rotom if i predict incorrectly. i've actually lost to curselax with this team because i uturned w bee anticipating my opponent to scout for trick and then had to sack too many mons for the game to be winnable after finally bringing it down. while perhaps it's not ridiculous like tauros was in the sense that its just going to get at least 2 kills a game and there's nothing you can really do about it, it's still extremely centralizing.

furthermore, i find the arguments that drampa and haunter would be balanced to be lacking. wrt to drampa, we have added another steel type that's slower and is OHKOd by fire blast, and a pokemon thats slower that doesnt resist either of its stabs and needs rest for recovery. for haunter, haunter can still mess with both of these new mons with trick, and can be extremely disruptive via sub sets (black sludge subdisable or LO subsplit). duraludon isnt broken because of how vulnerable defensively it is, and because it lacks good coverage to hit steels with. drampa provides excellent defensive utility for an offensive mon and more or less requires immunities to all 3 of its attacking types unless you want to give drampa guaranteed KOs. especially considering that literally the only things that have changed for these mons are that lax and escav (which is an mediocre check at best to both, realistically) are in the tier now, this just feels like a broken checks broken mentality. a lax/haunter/drampa metagame imo would be a nightmare in the builder, and honestly i think even one of these being in the tier makes for pretty constrictive teambuilding.

 

[Rabia]

this also doesn't factor in how the lax user plays: a good player using lax is not going to let ribombee trick it for free, or let it eat a specs aura sphere when it is capable of sweeping. furthermore, all of these posts have looked purely at how these pokemon handle lax in a vacuum. anyone building a lax team is going to be well prepped to switch into and chip the things that damage it, especially the fighters.

I don't even necessarily disagree with this tidbit here so much as I question how useful/relevant of a point it is when trying to decide on whether Snorlax (or any Pokemon) is banworthy. There's only so much complex analysis you can do on a Pokemon because you can't assume how the player piloting said Pokemon will use it. You can conjecture a whole bunch on optimal play/teambuilding around it, but that's it. Yes, Snorlax teams should prepare for its checks and counters. Yes, Snorlax players shouldn't risk losing it haphazardly. But you can only assume the opposing player's play so much when trying to figure out optimal lines. What if the opponent similarly plays optimally? What if the opponent never reveals they're Trick Ribombee/Rotom/whatever and catches Snorlax? There are just too many assumptions necessary to make that trying to go much beyond a vacuum when analyzing a Pokemon to make much of a coherent case against it. I think trying to assume optimal play from one user but ignoring that Pokemon requires two players is unfair and an inaccurate way to make a judgment call here. I don't disregard the other portions of your post that mention how in general counterplay to Curse Snorlax feels limited---I think this, at least now, is a fine point---but your second paragraph doesn't sit right with me.

 

[shiloh]

Even though we are only a couple days into the shifts and the new month, the NU Council already has a new voting slate. Originally we planned to do this last week, but with the shifts being so close after we decided to wait till this weekend. The fact that the shifts only gave us two additional mons, while only taking away one in return makes it easier to have this vote as well, as the metagame really has not changed. With that being said, here is what is being voted on over the next day.

Duraludon

the last of the dragons in the tier, duraludon is being nominated mainly due to its offensive typing that allows it to pressure a large amount of standard checks to dragon types. its steel typing allows it to pressure fairies that would otherwise give it trouble, being able to actually kill ribombee, clefairy, aromatisse, etc. it also has the ability to fit into a lot more teams due to it also having stealth rocks, giving offensive teams a nuke that can serve as a lead as well as being able to get rocks up early. there have been a number of more creative sets that have popped up as well, aside from specs and rocks, which are more standard. sets like iron defense+body press can be used to pressure steel types that would otherwise wall it like stunfisk&sivally-steel, whereas there are also takes on the more standard rock sets with items like eject pack to let it pivot around with draco meteor. it does have some issues though, mainly with its very low spdef, meaning that even neutral attacks will generally be at least 2hkoing it, and low coverage options with the only real offensive moves outside of its stabs being body press and thunderbolt.​

Escavalier

one of the drops this month, escavalier has already shown itself to be a prominent threat and on the chopping block from the first weekend. its clear to see why however. great typing leaving it with only one weakness, and a plethora of resistances all behind a solid amount of bulk means it is very hard to take down in even two attacks. this makes up for its dismal speed tier, which is the only weakness that escavalier really has. with new movepool additions like close combat, it has become that much harder to switch into, and with a solid fire attack on the opposing team, it can usually maneuver itself to get one or two kills. it also has a numerous amount of sets it can successfully pull off, ranging from choice band, to sd, to av, to even rest talk sets. overall there is very little reason not to be using escavalier at the moment, and even with its crippling weakness to fire, and its low speed it is still nearly impossible to beat without being able to predict perfectly around its coverage.​

Gallade

gallade finds itself on the slate once again, and this time it has moved up in viability quite a bit. life orb sets in particular have been rising up in popularity, due to the low amount of switchins to gallades dual stabs+knock off combo. the only true wall for this set is really sableye, or a colbur ghost type like runegrigus. the sheer power behind a life orb close combat with a swords dance boost is insane, with it having high odds to even kill max defense mudsdale from full. it also has a variety of other options for the last slot, with options like shadow sneak also picking up in order to pick off would be revenge killers like rotom. it also can run a multitude of other sets, like choice scarf, or even sub set up sets to take advantage of fatter walls. its middling speed does harm it a bit, but base 80 is not the worst for an offensive mon, and gives it a good speed tier to run choice scarf with, and lets it outpace a good number of the walls in the tier.​

Ninjask

ninjask sees itself nominated for the first time, after gaining a lot of new tools and tricks with sword & shield. the biggest of which is obvious to anyone that has played the tier recently, but the addition of heavy duty boots and dual wingbeats have propelled ninjask to the higher ends of the tier, due to its high speed tier and the ability for it to pivot without having to worry about rocks chip anymore. ninjask is very effective at being able to just chip & wear down would be counters through hazards & u-turn, as well as eventually being able to power through them with a swords dance boost. it also can choose to run another new tool in acrobatics, which while it may make hazard control more mandatory alongside it, gives it a much larger boost in power behind its sweeping stab move. it still does suffer from low stats all around aside from speed, and the lack of coverage options outside of its stabs can hurt it.​

Ribombee

ribombee sees itself up on the chopping block once again, due mainly to hits high speed, and good typing. being able to outpace a large majority of the tier, while have a very easy to spam offensive stab in moonblast makes for a dangerous mon. with coverage to hit poisons in psychic, and a very good sweeping move in quiver dance, its no wonder that ribombee sees itself being voted on once again. it also is able to play more of a support role with moves like sticky web, u-turn, and stun spore. even breaker sets are not out of the questions, as ribombeee can successfully pull of choice specs sets especially when compounded with its access to trick. however, it does lack quite a bit when it does come to special attack, and it has no options to hit steel types like stunfisk-galar or steelvally.​

Sneasel

with flashbacks from generations past, sneasel is set to be voted on once again. its great speed, combined with its good offensive typing are some of the reasons that it finds itself here once again. since its ban its also gained an additional tool in triple axel, that gives it a very strong ice stab to go alongside knock off and ice shard. similar to haunter it does have a problem with its frailty, but it does also have a much better speed tier when compared to haunter, as well as ice shard to let it pick off weakened scarfers or mons like ninjask/ribombee. it also does face issues with its attack when not used with a boosting item, but that is also offset by the fact it can use swords dance to boost it even further.​

Snorlax

the only other mon aside from escavalier that joined us this month, snorlax is one of the biggest drops yet. with amazing special defense, hp, and attack it is able to fulfill a numerous amount of roles for whatever teams choose to run him. it is able to patch its lower defense with access to curse, which makes it one of the hardest sweepers to deal with in the tier, as it is very hard to outboost it without something like gurdurr, and its great special defense makes it hard to take down on that front as well. being able to blanket check just about every special attacker in the tier, while also being great at chipping down the opposing team by throwing out body slams makes it a formidable threat. this post from luck o the irish covers it very well as to the reasons behind it being nominated.​

​

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like said at the start of this post, these votes will likely be taking place over the next 24 or so hours, so i if you guys have any thoughts on these mons, i implore you to post now if you havent earlier in this thread.

 

[Mariannabelle]

I don't have much to add at this point, so I'll make this short and sweet:

DURALUDON/RIBOMBEE/SNEASEL
I think the meta has settled nicely into checking Ribombee, and I never considered Duraludon problematic very much to start with. I still think Sneasel is kinda busted. Basically, it's all stuff that you've heard before from me. (DNB Ribombee or Duraludon, I wouldn't mind seeing Sneasel go.)

GALLADE
I think Gallade can sometimes be difficult to switch into, although we do have options available to us like colbur ghosts and the like. Offensively checking it is fairly easy since a lot of our middling to fast mons easily check it (compared to Sneasel, who's faster than the Vallys, the Rapidashes, and has Ice Shard for other stuff). (DNB)

ESCAVALIER/SNORLAX
I think Escavalier is fine; it's slow, and while it's pretty bulky, it's not in the same league as Snorlax. Escavalier isn't going to be too thrilled to just eat neutral hits from stuff like Mudsdale. I could potentially change my mind if Band is tearing people new orifices, but for now I don't consider it too problematic.
Snorlax, on the other hand, is just numerically, mathematically insane. Checking it offensively with neutral moves is a nightmare because of its bulk, Band sets are nearly unwallable, and the few games I've played against it are enough to let me know that it's bigtime busted. Moreso than Tauros, for reference.

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so I'll make this short and sweet

I take it back, because somehow Ninjask got nommed, so naturally I must come to its defense.

If I'm being consistent, I look at stuff and say whether it's busted based on whether good counterplay is available. Offensive counterplay, defensive counterplay.
Defensive counterplay to jask is super easy. Physically defensive things like Weezing, Mudsdale, Stunfisk-G, and the like will wall it all day. Believe me, because I spend hours coming up with schemes to get around this problem and others. In some cases, Jask will be hurt by Rocky Helmet more than the target is hurt by U-turn. The tier is loaded with plenty of defensive threats, and Jask isn't bulky enough to just click Swords Dance willy nilly when even passive things like Aromatisse can 2HKO it with neutral STAB. Ninjask is so frail that a lot of these defensive answers will offensively beat it. U-turn isn't particularly troubling to a lot of hard Jask walls, and we have plenty of Jask walls.

Offensive counterplay to Ninjask is a bit trickier since a lot of conventional methods do not work. For example, while Silvally-Steel, Mudsdale, and the like can all switch into Ninjask fairly easily, they end up just getting worn down with U-turn, and Scarfers in particular are bad counterplay since Ninjask outspeeds them anyway, and commonly carries Protect to scout their move and act accordingly. That being said, it's not like the privilege of clicking U-turn on offensive checks is exclusive to Ninjask, although Ninjask is certainly better at it because of STAB. However, at the end of the day, there's still plenty of things like the ones that I mentioned that can force Jask off the field, which brings me to the next point-
Keeping Stealth Rock up is another huge part of offensively checking Ninjask, because while it can U-turn on your Silvally-Steel and co., SR being up means that it has only a few chances to do so. If Jask opts to run Boots, then it's not all that offensively threatening to start with (i.e. no 2HKO on neutral Silvallys, etc.)
Offensively checking Ninjask also includes priority options, because Ninjask is so frail that it risks taking major damage from random Sucker Punches, Shadow Sneaks, and Ice Shards. Getting worn down into range of these things is easy for a mon that lures in Helmet users, and Adamant Band Sneasel also has a solid chance to just OHKO with little trouble.

I kinda just daj;fkdaj'd this onto the forum at 2 in the morning but that's just because I wanted to get it on there before people actually start considering the idea that Jask is somehow broken.

 

[Lucario]

This mon is bad. Its only offensive set is scarf. Other than that it runs Stealth Rock and needs Focus Sash so it doesn't get brutally murdered by a fairy bug that is about 1% of its size. Scarf sets are also just meh. There are many a mon that can swap into its moves, namely Silvally-Steel and Sandslash-Alola. The dragon doesn't get any fire or ground moves to help check its checks, it also doesn't get pivot so it has a harder time switching in and out.


Max Attack and Choice Band give it a huge 607 Atk stat. Currently, we only have 3 viable fire types with the only other fire coverage being non-STAB Flamethrower or Flame Charge from Silvally. Oh, and almost forgot, this things gets mad coverage. It has Bug, Steel, Ground, Fighting, Dark, Poison, and Water moves that can help it out when needed. It also has crazy ass defensive stats to make sure it doesn't die to anything.


Putting them together because they shouldn't br banned imo. They're both A tier mons (at least that's how I feel) and have decent checks and counters. Ninjask is the main check to both, while Steels are a huge counter to Ninjask. Gallade is good but not banworthy in the current state with the many fairies flying around.


I was gonna say this is a ban, but over time I think now this mon does not need to be banned. It's been voted on twice already and with time we have found out how to check it, a Steel type (steels are op rn). Sure, Specs can kill a lot of the tier but if you do not have a Spdef wall or a Steel type, then maybe you should have one. This is just a really solid mon that helps the tier be not boring.


I do not use this much nor have I played against it much, so I won't talk about this.


Big numbers with even more big numbers and more big numbers and big moves equals a ban. Huge HP, Spdef, and Atk stats as well as getting Curse to help its Def. It also has Thick Fat to check Sneasel, Vanilluxe, and Frosmoth. This is the mon that Miltank wishes it is but it is not. NU is a tier where if you see a big number you will like it a lot. If you see two big numbers then it may be banned. But 3 is a definite ban. It also has access to Heat Crash, so say goodbye to the entire Bug typing and a few other mons.

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

I don't even necessarily disagree with this tidbit here so much as I question how useful/relevant of a point it is when trying to decide on whether Snorlax (or any Pokemon) is banworthy. There's only so much complex analysis you can do on a Pokemon because you can't assume how the player piloting said Pokemon will use it. You can conjecture a whole bunch on optimal play/teambuilding around it, but that's it. Yes, Snorlax teams should prepare for its checks and counters. Yes, Snorlax players shouldn't risk losing it haphazardly. But you can only assume the opposing player's play so much when trying to figure out optimal lines. What if the opponent similarly plays optimally? What if the opponent never reveals they're Trick Ribombee/Rotom/whatever and catches Snorlax? There are just too many assumptions necessary to make that trying to go much beyond a vacuum when analyzing a Pokemon to make much of a coherent case against it. I think trying to assume optimal play from one user but ignoring that Pokemon requires two players is unfair and an inaccurate way to make a judgment call here. I don't disregard the other portions of your post that mention how in general counterplay to Curse Snorlax feels limited---I think this, at least now, is a fine point---but your second paragraph doesn't sit right with me.

that's fair; my point in this paragraph is more so that I felt users above who mentioned using things like trick and various checks to exactly one lax set held an overly optimistic view of how reliable those methods of counterplay are. i used my anecdote to demonstrate how merely one overpredict cost me a game with regards to curselax, for which I was in theory prepped pretty well in the builder. and yea, there's a lot of variables going on outside of vacuum matchups, but I do think it's worth considering in terms of how much support a mon requires to be effective, and for lax that support is fairly minimal. I don't feel like there are many mons in NU that are capable of punishing misplays or incorrect reads to the extent that lax currently can, or that things like eggy-alola or drampa could, for example.

 

[Monky25]

Might as well second some opinions and say that duraludon and ribombee are not banworthy at all, the meta has indeed adapted to both of them in the tier and I don't see them as too problematic. Ninjask and gallade are also manageable, gallade has an awkward speed tier that lets it get outsped by plenty of things and we have no shortage of defensive counterplan for ninjask. Sneasel I cant say much about tbh, and as I mentioned before I would like to keep lax in the tier a bit longer to flush out its counterplay. Same with escavalier, except that unlike snorlax who might be broken as time goes on, I find escavlier to be fine in the metagame.
Overall, I would DNB everything and abstain from sneasel if I were in the position to vote. The only pokemon I see that should be further looked into is snorlax and maybe escavalier, we have nommed dural, gallade, and bee muitlpe times and they all been fine, so no point in nomming them again especially since they are fine for the tier.

 

[Segetarius]

Just to bring my 2 cents into the conversation regarding the upcoming ban votes:


This mon has not seemed particularly great. While its base 120 spatk and decent 85 speed is great for specs and scarf sets, it provides next to nothing in the way of defensive utility. Thus, the only set Duraludon has that is truly unique in what it does is its lead set on HO. Other than that, this was easily the most underwhelming drop last month. The prominence of steels will keep this mon in check easily.


Of the 2 drops this month, this mon has been very healthy imo. While offensively, a base 135 atk plus excellent, powerful coverage seems overwhelming, the issue Escavalier faces is that it can't be an excellent tank and an overwhelming offensive presence at the same time. Don't get me wrong, 70/105/105 bulk is good, but surprisingly underwhelming when offensive sets are limited in how much they can invest in bulk, especially when most have to invest at least 84 EVs in speed for lax and max attack. Combined with the problems of a base 20 speed and a lack of priority making it tough for sd tank sets to sweep, this mons conundrum becomes clear. You either have immense power held back by terrible speed, lack of recovery and longevity, or you have immense defensive utility and limited damage output. And to those who complain about NU's lack of fire types to counter it:
0- SpA Silvally-Steel Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Escavalier: 168-200 (48.8 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Gallade has been a hot topic. On the one hand, it is a great stallbreaker with any of its offensive sets and as a player who prefers more defensive teams, I have been on the receiving end of a Gallade cleanup more than once. On the other hand, Gallade really can't switch in safely without slow pivot support, limiting its use against offense to revenge killing. This combined with its relative predictability (as most Gallades are running scarf) and the fact that the tier does have ways to counter it in the event that its usage shoots up makes it a clear dnb vote if it were me.


Ninjask has shot up in usage recently, and thus people have complained about its abilities as a cleaner and anti-offense tool on popular cores. The way I see it, Ninjask is one of the better niche picks in the tier, as it is a superb tool against offense, but Ninjask is another mon that needs to compromise on power for longevity. For maximum power, you run the no item Acrobatics set and require your team to have excellent hazard removal. Otherwise you run boots and you are going to be extremely disappointed with its lack of power. Many good mons wall it and defense wise, it's made of paper, thus it is far from overpowered. For more details, see Mari's post


Ribombee has been an excellent breaker since it dropped last month, but I don't see it as overwhelming in any capacity. It took a second, but the meta adapted to the presence of good fairy and ice-type breakers by incorporating steels onto nearly every team. Simply put, the bee suffers from lack of coverage against steels, and with proper support, there's no reason to think that the steels won't be able to continue to check it.


Sneasel is the only mon on the current list of potential bans that I don't have a very strong opinion about. I understand the worries people have since even if you switch into a wall, Sneasel just clicks Knock Off and calls it a day. Yet there are walls, in particular defensive Aromatisse, that totally counter Sneasel. Furthermore, Sneasel suffers from its awful typing, non-existent bulk, and its no longer top notch speed. If it was banned, I won't miss it, and I do recognize arguments on both sides. Do what you will with this.


Snorlax is ridiculously, ludicrously busted and you can't change my mind. Outside of Curselax's ability to demolish teams with one free turn to setup (which isn't exactly a crazy proposition given its excellent bulk), There's also the options of Choice Band or any other set you can think of. What arguments I've heard to keep Snorlax are based around the idea that it is easy to wear down with hazards and that offensively checking it isn't too difficult. These arguments assume that Snorlax lives in a vacuum, except that this is 6 on 6, so it has 5 partners to patch any issues it has, as is the case with any other mon. Besides that, offensively checking seems very iffy to me. Sure, you might have a trick user against Curselax, but how many trick user's do you know in NU that want to switch into a potential STAB Body Slam coming off a base 110 attack? Furthermore, even if you trick your Choice item onto Snorlax or just in general cripple it, it still has immense defensive utility, being able to effectively blanket check every special attacker without any investment. The fact that people are seriously considering using Storm Throw Throh speaks to how stupidly broken Snorlax is and how much it can warp the meta around it. Please, for everyone's sanity and for the health of the meta, ban this thing.

 

[shiloh]

The results from the last slate are now in, and here are the results from the council vote!

As can be seen from this list Sneasel and Snorlax are now banned from SS NU, effective immediately.

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Sneasel

Sneasel has been banned from the tier once again, and it is not to the surprise of many. its great speed, combined with its good offensive typing are some of the prime reasons behind its ban. since its original ban its also gained an additional tool in triple axel, that gives it a very strong ice stab to go alongside knock off and ice shard. there is a problem with its general frality, even when using an eviolite, but it more than makes up for it with its high speed, and with ice shard to pick off faster threats like ninjask/ribombee. it also does face issues with its attack when not used with a boosting item, but that is also offset by the fact it can use swords dance to boost it even further. overall it has shown time and again how hard it is to find dedicated counters to it, and it now sees itself banned once agian.​

Snorlax

one of the only two drops this month, snorlax finds itself the only one banned following this vote. with amazing special defense, hp, and attack it is able to fulfill a numerous amount of roles for whatever teams choose to run him. it is able to patch its lower defense with access to curse, which makes it one of the hardest sweepers to deal with in the tier, as it is very hard to outboost it without something like gurdurr, and its great special defense makes it hard to take down on that front as well. being able to blanket check just about every special attacker in the tier, while also being great at chipping down the opposing team by throwing out body slams makes it a formidable threat. there are very few downsides to using snorlax, and the fact that it is so splashable and threatening means it had to go.​

Tagging Marty The Immortal to update the ladder and builder whenever they get the chance.

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This should also be the end of the votes following the large metagame shifts, and as long as DLC 2 does not impact us that greatly we will hopefully be able to move onto public tests in the near future. All depends on how the metagames above us shift with this new DLC however, so we will be paying close attention and will try to keep everyone updated in the NU Discord or in the thread.

 

[Rabia]

Because I know people are already preparing their pitchforks and making calls to hang me by my ankles, I'll explain the Snorlax vote.

So, we've had the drops for a very limited amount of time. I think it's very difficult to justify a ban vote on anything newly introduced to a metagame when given such limited time to play into it because you simply can't predict how the tier will evolve to its presence with that little time. While we can speculate all we want on how difficult CurseLax is to build and play into and how CBLax is scary (it's not), I think not giving the tier any real meaningful time to adapt to its presence is unfair. Like, if this was a case of Deoxys-A in NU, then sure that's blatant enough to be broken no matter what. But I don't view Snorlax like that. I think the existence of Pokemon like Iron Defense Cofagrigus, Iron Defense Duraludon, and Bulk Up Gurdurr already limited its potential, and the addition of Escavalier helped against non-Heat Crash sets too. Additionally, I do think there are a fairly solid amount of lures like Trick Ribombee/Rotom/Whimsicott to make Snorlax much less capable of overwhelming teams late-game, despite it still retaining most of its walling capabilities. Of course the Snorlax player shouldn't risk its sweeping potential unnecessarily, but I do find it reasonable to assume there will be cases where you simply have to risk it by using it as a check to such Pokemon. I've also seen a bit more Alolan Persian lately? which is definitely a reasonable answer to Snorlax given Taunt + Toxic is a broken combination, and in general there are a fair few Pokemon---Vanilluxe, Ninetales, Rapidash, to name some---that can draw it in and Toxic it (rip to Toxic Ninetales now, though lol).

I guess the point I'm getting at is I saw at least enough room for exploration in the tier to hold off on an immediate vote for ban. There was never any doubt in my mind that Snorlax would be literally the best Pokemon in the tier if it stayed, but I couldn't convince myself that it didn't deserve more of a chance than it was given.

sneasel ban makes me depressed, as does duraludon somehow nearly getting enough ban votes

 

[Attack on Samurott]

Damn I only got like 5 to 10 games in with Snorlax before it got banned. I knew that shit was too good for this tier. Its overall coverage options and set up option in the famous CurseLax set are just amazing. It's abilities were also great too. Immunity being a nice niche for Toxic because it is so common in this tier while Thick Fat just tanks all the hard hitting Ice and "Fire types" in this metagame. Even its checks do not want to be pressured by this behemoth. I'm glad, but also sad its gone. Had a whole series planned for this thing lmao.

 

[Science The Voices]

Just like in Tauros' case, and I agree with what Rabia pointed out regarding banning mons too quickly, meta had no time to adapt to Snorlax. We had literally one day to test it out, cause' chages were implemented pretty late. I know that Snorlax was too good for the tier, but we could at least make it stay for a bit longer to see how things turn out. I played maybe 3 games with Snorlax, and that mon wasn't as broken as we all see it. Once I got tricked a Choice Scarf, and then Duraludon reverse swept me with Iron Defense Body Press.

As for Sneasel, I really don't see why it got banned. Nothing has changed since last shift, it had Triple Axel from the beginning. It had plenty of checks and counters.

 

[sumwun]

Why is Appletun unviable as a wall in NU? Which walls are better than Appletun, and which threats can they wall better than Appletun can?

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Why is Appletun unviable as a wall in NU? Which walls are better than Appletun, and which threats can they wall better than Appletun can?

The cool thing about Appletun is that it hard counters Ninetails, and is one of the best walls available for that threat. Thick Fat helps with the Fire coverage of course, and Ninetails tends to run Energy Ball and Scorching Sands for everything else. The other Dragon-type in NU that can potentially check Ninetails, Silvally-Dragon, is slower and fears the burn from Scorching Sands, but Appletun barely worries about that and capitalizes with Grav Apple, Draco Meteor, or Recover.


Outside of this MU there are better walls all together, though. The other wall that comes to mind is Miltank, which counters Nintails very well and arguably punishes better with opportunities to Toxic, set Stealth Rock, and even Earthquake if it runs it. It also uses Thick Fat to its fullest, being an actual Ice resist. This is in contrast to Appletun, which succumbs to coverage from Vanlluxe and Frosmoth, and then the team will need another check to these attackers. Some cores also enjoy specially defensive mons like Wishiwashi, Mudsdale, Jellicent, and Garbodor that can take a hit or two when healthy and force significant damage on Ninetails so that it's then forced out by a faster mon like Ninjask, Ribombee, or Choice Scarf Duraludon.

All in all, Appeltun isn't the worst mon to build around if the team needs a good counter to Ninetails, but I'd recommend Miltank first and foremost for the role. Edit: as far as unviability goes, if you're referring to the VR, that's very out of date, so don't trust it that much.

The results from the last slate are now in, and here are the results from the council vote!

As can be seen from this list Sneasel and Snorlax are now banned from SS NU, effective immediately.

I'm okay for these two being banned as there totally was a lot to unpack with the current meta, and any change is likely in the right direction. Building in this meta has been real tough, as it feels like there was one too many threats to build against. Not sure exactly if these two were the worst offenders of the list, as mons like Gallade and Ribombee have really limited counter play and are very centralizing in the meta, but at the very least I'm optimistic to see if there's more room for the meta to grow into something stable.

 

[quziel]

I'll make a crazy claim, in terms of why you're using Appletun its basically a bulky water; its a fire resist, takes on ground types, and takes on enemy water types efficiently, all things you'd traditionally use a bulky water for. Now, to understand why its so mediocre as a wall, you gotta compare it to its competition, Jellicient, Cramorant, Wishiwashi, Quagsire, all of which have a crucial ingredient its missing, utility for their team, and/or GOAT move Toxic.

Honestly, its more just that Appletun doesn't get Toxic, or really any way to play around Toxic, which is crippling for a mon that would love to stay in for 50 turns. When you're completely crippled by Toxic and want to switch into Mudsdale often, you're in a bad place. It absolutely has way more offensive presence (sorta) than a lot on this list, but even there it struggles compared to how much harder Jelli's stabs are to resist, and well, Taunt letting Jelli break through a lot of slower stuff eg Clefairy which Appletun struggles to do. Apple Acid is the goat move, but requiring multiple turns to start doing damage is sorta whack, esp when your initial power is lacking, and again, Toxic exists.

 

[sumwun]

The other Dragon-type in NU that can potentially check Ninetails, Silvally-Dragon, is slower and fears the burn from Scorching Sands,

Wait what? Did you mean to say something else here?

 

[Mariannabelle]

Wait what? Did you mean to say something else here?

I’m sure he meant ‘still slower than Ninetales’ [and without the bulk/recovery]
if you’re slower than tales anyway, it’s better to not be worn down/crippled on the way in

 

[Pokeslice]

I'm genuinely surprised that Duraludon got 4 (!) ban votes. It's too slow, too frail, and doesn't have the coverage to be a real, powerful threat in the meta. It can't even reliably run a Choice Specs for a true nuke because It's a steel type that dies to Ribombee! Although on paper it seems extremely strong, in practice, it's forced into either an HO lead or an average scarfer role while offering limited, if no, defensive utility. At the same time, there's multiple popular spdef steel types like Steelvally or Alolaslash that just don't seem to care about Duraludon. Granted, if caught off guard, Duraludon can become a huge threat, it's an A- mon at best and entirely undeserving of 4 ban votes, in my opinion.

 

[Expulso]

I'm genuinely surprised that Duraludon got 4 (!) ban votes. It's too slow, too frail, and doesn't have the coverage to be a real, powerful threat in the meta. It can't even reliably run a Choice Specs for a true nuke because It's a steel type that dies to Ribombee! Although on paper it seems extremely strong, in practice, it's forced into either an HO lead or an average scarfer role while offering limited, if no, defensive utility. At the same time, there's multiple popular spdef steel types like Steelvally or Alolaslash that just don't seem to care about Duraludon. Granted, if caught off guard, Duraludon can become a huge threat, it's an A- mon at best and entirely undeserving of 4 ban votes, in my opinion.

I think it's unfair to say that Steelvally and Alolaslash don't care about Duraludon. AlolaSlash is OHKOed by a quad-effective Body Press and neutral to Flash Cannon, making it a very poor answer. Steelvally is able to take a few hits, but it is also very easy to wear down and has no recovery, so the 30% chip done by Duraludon + any hazard damage it also takes can be enough.

Being a steel-type that dies to Ribombee in no way precludes it from running Specs; Ribombee can't risk switching into its STAB Flash Cannon (unless you're a total madman), so its STAB combo is fairly free to click (with Body Press for the mons like Stunfisk-G and Steelvally that can take its STABs).

It isn't effectively walled by the Steel-types you mentioned. It doesn't offer much defensive utility, though that needs to be qualified somewhat. It doesn't offer much special defensive utility. Notably, its Steel-typing and 105 base Defense (iirc) make it a good answer to Ninjask, which can give it opportunities to attack or get up Rocks.

While it requires support in the teambuilder to handle its special weaknesses, it's a strong enough breaker that this is often worth it.

 

[Pokeslice]

I think it's unfair to say that Steelvally and Alolaslash don't care about Duraludon. AlolaSlash is OHKOed by a quad-effective Body Press and neutral to Flash Cannon, making it a very poor answer. Steelvally is able to take a few hits, but it is also very easy to wear down and has no recovery, so the 30% chip done by Duraludon + any hazard damage it also deals can be enough.

Being a steel-type that dies to Ribombee in no way precludes it from running Specs; Ribombee can't risk switching into its STAB Flash Cannon (unless you're a total madman), so its STAB combo is fairly free to click (with Body Press for the mons like Stunfisk-G and Steelvally that can take its STABs).

It isn't effectively walled by the Steel-types you mentioned. It doesn't offer much defensive utility, though that needs to be qualified somewhat. It doesn't offer much special defensive utility. Notably, its Steel-typing and 105 base Defense (iirc) make it a good answer to Ninjask, which can give it opportunities to attack or get up Rocks.

While it requires support in the teambuilder to handle its special weaknesses, it's a strong enough breaker that this is often worth it.

Very fair, real points. To be honest, I forgot Body Press existed for a second LOL, but for the most common sets, it can come down to predictions with Body Press, Flash, or Draco, which are inconsistent. When I play, those main flaws, such as a the bee problem (really any special attacker problem), come up, although I do run a lot of teams full of spdef steels and fairies. Even though it has a great defensive stat, it's significantly underwhelming in the tier with powerful physical attackers like Gallade throwing off CC's and Knock's, which it doesn't appreciate, and without real longevity, it's defensive utility falls off hard (although that argument can be said for a lot of mons). I will say, I definitely don't give it as much credit as I should, but imo, it doesn't deserve to be up there on the ban slate with borderline broken mons like Gallade or Escav, or even banworthy threats such as Lax or Sneasel.

 

[Davon]

Hello everybody, I’m gonna explain the reasoning behind my votes.

Sneasel is broken because it’s the best late-game sweeper in the tier and one of the best wall breakers. With choice band it’s essentially a 50/50 on which STAB move Sneasel is clicking since ice/dark is very spammable. I think Sneasel’s best set was HDB SD because after 1 SD it’s very difficult to stop a Sneasel sweep and with HDB it’s not getting worn down throughout the battle, giving it a mid-game presence to potentially wear down its checks. Even though Sneasel is frail, it often just needs to survive 1 hit to sweep a team. It can setup on weak attackers and choice locked mons commonly, such as defensive Mudsdale and scarf Gallade respectively. Since just 1 turn is needed for Sneasel to sweep and it can setup fairly easily, I voted Ban

Snorlax is obviously broken. It’s a blanket wall to every special attacker in the tier and can be very difficult to 3hko. Curse is the first blatantly broken set but it’s really easy for Snorlax to deviate from this set and beat its checks. For example, something like Toxic / Body Slam / Heat Crash / Rest takes away sweeping potential for statusing Jellicent and OHKOing Escavalier. Snorlax gets to choose its checks and use its teammates to check the few things that don’t force Snorlax out. Clearly a ban to me and didn’t need any more time in the tier.

Gallade isn’t as obviously broken as some of the other mons on the slate, and that’s mainly due to the offensive nature of the meta right now. Life Orb Gallade simply only has 1 counter (sableye in case you couldn’t figure that out) which isn’t even that great of a mon to begin with. Balances at the moment rely on a faster fighting resist to check Gallade (Ribombee, Rotom, etc.). All these faster fighting resists are shaky checks to Gallade mainly because of Zen Headbutt hitting them hard so it’s a prediction to get them in, and secondly if your check is a faster ghost or psychic type then you may get surprised by a Shadow Sneak. Scarf Gallade isn’t as threatening as Life Orb, but with Scarf you still have Gallade’s raw power which is enough to check almost everything fast in the metagame. In order to account for scarf Gallade in the builder you need to have a solid fighting and psychic resist. Gallade’s special bulk is also really important to note because you’re surviving almost any special attack at-least once, making it a great check to any neutral special attacker like Ninetales. Since there’s a lack of defensive counter play to Gallade, I voted ban.

Escavalier is broken because its combination of power, typing, and bulk allow it to net KOs fairly easily. Its coverage is unwallable and it gets way too many opportunities to fire off attacks. Defensively, Escavalier can switch into fairies, Vanilluxe, and grass types. While bug/steel isn’t the best offensively it has coverage options like knock off and close combat which make Escavalier unwallable. If Escavalier is using Choice Band it can OHKO almost everything in the tier, so it just needs 1 prediction. The main way people deal with Escavalier right now is with colbur-and-wisp ghost types, weezing with flamethrower, and... not much else off the top of my head that can switch into Escavalier. Our fire types are too frail to switch into Escavalier so you gotta sac something to get your fire type in. While Escavalier’s speed is a bummer it can take advantage of its low speed on trick room teams. I voted ban because it switches into a lot of mons and can always net a KO, making it the best bulky offensive pivot in the tier.

Duraludon is broken because it’s way too good of a lead on HO. Duraludon is almost always gonna run draco/ flash cannon/ body press / stealth rock, but it doesn’t need to deviate from this move set. You always get something out of Duraludon early on whether it’s rocks and/or forced damage on one of its checks. While dragon and steel may be individually wallable, together the only defensive counter play is a steel type or specially bulky mon like mudsdale. Slower mons are forced to take a draco, which means slower fairies aren’t reliable because they’ll have to take a +0 flash cannon. What can make Duraludon unmanageable is the unpredictability in its item slot. If it’s sash then your specs ribombee isn’t OHKO’ing and faints to flash cannon. If it’s life orb then it’s got a lot more breaking power, and could be used as a mid-game wallbreaker when it switches into Weezing or Garbodor. If it’s shuca berry then it’s getting an extra turn vs ground types. If it’s power herb solar beam then say goodbye to your ground types. There’s more items Duraludon can use, and each item drastically changes the way the Duraludon player can control the game early on, which makes me believe it’s ban-worthy.

Ninjask is one of the better tools offense can use vs opposing offense. It often kinda just plays itself in games, where you click u-turn and hope it does something. Ninjask’s damage output is pretty average, but throughout the course of a game Ninjask is continuously chipping its checks which may open up a Ninjask sweep in the end-game. While it’s easy for Ninjask to chip its checks, it’s sometimes not enough because 2-3 Ninjask checks can fit into teams pretty naturally. Ninjask’s average attack means it’s not getting OHKOs unless it’s hitting super effectively or it’s got an SD up. While my argument for Sneasel’s ban was pretty similar, Ninjask differentiates itself more because it lacks wallbreaking potential. Physically bulky mons don’t necessarily need to resist flying in order to check Ninjask; Weezing and Cofagrigus are examples of this. At the moment I think Ninjask is a do not ban, but maybe with Sneasel gone we’ll see some changes so we’ll have to wait and see.

This may surprise some people because I expressed a “ban ribombee” mentality early on in September, but I think the meta has adapted wonderfully to Ribombee. We have a lot of great bulky steel and poison types, which means Ribombee rarely sweeps and can have a tough time wallbreaking. While Ribombee’s checks generally need to be on the bulkier side since it’s tough to outspeed Ribombee, offensive checks like Ninetales and SD Silvally-Steel are bulky enough to switch in at least once and beat Ribombee. It’s also important to mention specs Ribombee is very vulnerable to hazards and HDB variants are weak without a Quiver Dance. For these reasons I voted do not ban.

If anybody disagrees with my takes feel free to reply, I love hearing everybody’s opinion and it helps me with voting!

 

[Catalisador]

I DISAGREE with the ban of Sneasel. Between defensive checks such as Poliwrath, Colbur Berry Jellicent, Silvally-Steel and Rocky Helmet Garbodor, faster revenge-killers such a Ribombee, Scarf Gallade, and Whimsicott and even blanket checks such as Duraludon and utility Rapidash, the weasel found itself in a healthy place in the metagame. Not even peaking in the top 25 most used NU pokémon, Sneasel was a perfectly fine addition to the metagame, in my eyes, giving us another fast offensive option to choose from the (stale-ish) deck of Gallade/Bugs/Ninetales.

My hot take of the day is this one. I STRONGLY DISAGREE with Snorlax's ban. On paper, Snorlax's stats show a mighty behemoth with unparalled bulk and the ability to blanket check all of the tier's special attackers. However, I can't help but feel like we should've given it more time. In my eyes, the metagame had already found some inventive ways of dealing with the bear. Between strong physical attackers such as Choice Banded Mudsdale and Escavalier and Choice Scarf Gallade to more defensive-inclined counterplay like bulk up Gurdurr and Poliwrath as well as Sableye and Taunt + Will-O-Wisp Jellicent or even utility options in Trick Ribombee, Froslass, Whimsicott and Cofagrigus, I feel like we were facing a Ribombee situation: the pokémon looks entirely busted at first glance but, after maybe a week or two, the metagame will be able to adapt to it in a way that makes the pokémon not overcentralizing and completely healthy to play. But who knows, maybe we'll get it back in Crown Tundra.

I have mixed feelings on Gallade. It is a great wallbreaker, even when it's running its most popular Choice Scarf set, with incredible Fighting/Psychic coverage and Knock Off + Trick + Teleport utility. However, It can feel overwhelmingly restrictive on teambuilding. There are no clear counters to Gallade other than Sableye (which can even be dealt with by my Catalisador certified Heavy-Duty Boots Imprison/Will-O-Wisp/Knock Off/Close Combat set). For now, I AGREE with keeping it NU, but maybe not 100%.

No counters. Choice Band has no counters. However, it can be checked decently easily. And the specially defensive sets are more consistent and a very healthy addition to the metagame. I AGREE with keeping it NU.

No, it is not broken. If the main argument for Duraludon's brokeness is it being "too good of a hyper offense lead" maybe the problem isn't Duraludon, but the hyper offensive archetypes roaming around *cough* Aurora Veil *cough*. Paper wet defensive stats make it basically unable to abuse it's great defensive typing, renegading Duraludon to the roles of a purely offensive Choice Scarf user or a the more common lead sets, which can easily be dealt with by scouting with Ribombee, Silvally formes such as -Steel and -Water (which I particularly think is going to be much better with Escavalier around), Escavalier, Ninetales, etc. Metal Sound is also a fantastic option to weaken checks and claim KOs and is definitely worth exploring too. I AGREE with keeping Duraludon in NU.

I still believe Ninjask is overwhelming. I DISAGREE with keeping Ninjask in NU. Virtually no way to check it besides slapping Rocky Helmet on your recovery-less check, unmatched speed, strong STAB options, U-Turn (the main catalyst of its brokeness), access to Swords Dance to more easily clean or punish checks make Ninjask a frustrating pokémon to deal with.

Wall of calcs.

252+ Atk Ninjask Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Steel: 80-95 (24.1 - 28.7%) -- 98.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Ninjask U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Steel: 51-60 (15.4 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO

252+ Atk Ninjask Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 111-132 (27.4 - 32.6%) -- 68.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Ninjask U-turn vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 48-57 (11.8 - 14.1%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252+ Atk Ninjask Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Stunfisk-Galar: 77-91 (18.2 - 21.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Ninjask U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Stunfisk-Galar: 49-58 (11.6 - 13.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252+ Atk Ninjask Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Sandslash-Alola: 60-71 (16.9 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Ninjask U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Sandslash-Alola: 38-45 (10.7 - 12.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Usually a minimum of 39.5% off Silvally-Steel, 39.2% off Mudsdale, 29.8% off Stunfisk-Galar and 27.6% off Sandslash-Alola, Ninjask's best checks, allow it to easily chip them down and get a clean late game sweep unless you're using Double Steels (which, by the way, can still get easily chip down lol). This is also not counting hazards.

Fine. It has settled down just fine. Differently from Ninjask, Ribombee can actually be checked. Not much else to add. I AGREE with keeping Ribombee NU.