Metagame NP: NU Stage 3 - Rain On Me [Bans Post #87]

[Monky25]

Looking at the new NU VR list (great job btw), I noticed that some pokemon which previously received high usage were not even on the list. The most prominent mons were rotom-fan, skunktank, basculin, and sandaconda, all of which were very solid with high usage last month. Any guesses as to why they got unranked? I get sandaconda has to compete with mudsdale and rhydon while bulk waters cause bascuiin to suffer but the others are surprising to me. Others that got unranked were malamar, cursola, thwackey, qwilfish, rapidash, avalugg, pincurchin, rotom frost, jolteon, and hitmontop. Most made sense but stuff like rapidash and thwackey i felt were still solid in the tier. Anyone have any ideas of what other stuff is pretty bad in the metagame at the moment?

 

[Rabia]

Looking at the new NU VR list (great job btw), I noticed that some pokemon which previously received high usage were not even on the list. The most prominent mons were rotom-fan, skunktank, basculin, and sandaconda, all of which were very solid with high usage last month. Any guesses as to why they got unranked? I get sandaconda has to compete with mudsdale and rhydon while bulk waters cause bascuiin to suffer but the others are surprising to me. Others that got unranked were malamar, cursola, thwackey, qwilfish, rapidash, avalugg, pincurchin, rotom frost, jolteon, and hitmontop. Most made sense but stuff like rapidash and thwackey i felt were still solid in the tier. Anyone have any ideas of what other stuff is pretty bad in the metagame at the moment?

rotom-fan could prob stand to be ranked again; main thing hurting it is prevalence of mons it doesn't really do anything against (lanturn, spdef toge for example) and a very large increase in boots usage, which makes defog generally less necessary and as a result hurts it

skuntank isnt a very good breaker anymore because of power creep of the tier being higher. teams are also generally forgoing ghost-resistant pokemon atm because of low usage of the spooky guys, so skuntank doesn't get as many chances to make use of its defensive potential

basculin has a fuck load more competition now for a slot on a team as a fast pivoting breaker with whimsi, bee, and even galvantula. we also have more mons that just blanket fuck on it (water immunities)

sandaconda is generally outclassed as a rocker and doesnt really have other great sets. scarf/coil could pick up at some point but haven't yet

rapidash is outdone by ninetales as an offensive fire-type and doesn't really break anything very effectively because of how common its checks are. it struggles w/ coverage because it's going to be walled by a lot of shit regardless of what it picks, and if it drops recovery then it can only pivot into the fairies once

thwackey is a meme; terrain teams aren't really anything specical

 

[kay]

So I want to take a second to bring up a topic that not only is really strong right now but also has potential to get even crazier: Aurora Veil.

So with the shifts that came out not only did we get ice cream and slash-a which definitely boosted the viability of veil, we also have gotten and will continue to get a plentiful amount of amazing set up sweepers thanks to the trickle down power creep we're seeing this gen and its thanks to that that I think we're really going to start running into problems with veil once people start abusing this. Every since coming back into NU I've been spamming veil HO and its been incredibly overwhelming for a lot of teams to keep up with thanks to the numerous aforementioned set up sweepers like Ribombee, Kingler, Frosmoth ect. I found that while teams might have answers for some set up sweepers, they really can't be prepared for all of them that you're able to slam together on a team and thanks to veil not only are you able to set up freely you're also able to evade the things that are normally out to revenge kill you which then turns a lot of games into sacking waiting games to wait out veil so your mon actually has the damage to revenge kill.

It also doesn't help how most veil teams are extremely easy to auto pilot and build which reminds me a lot of how weather teams or veil teams of past gens used to play out (aka extremely unhealthy). It can get extremely suffocating to play against because some times you just get out pressured by the endless onslaught of set up sweepers without much you can ever really do to stop it. While I don't know if I can make the case on my own that they need to go now, I could definitely see it needing to get looked at later down the line as we keep getting more mons that veil can just exploit like how we used to have Agility Vika for example. You get to just slap on whatever broken wall breakers we get to whatever veil team you have and plug and play until they're ultimately banned without much thought behind it because that's the kind of strategy veil teams have.

Hopefully this get veil at least on the radar, gets people playing and exploring it more, and maybe opens up the conversation about it because its definitely worth having a conversation about.

 

[okispokis]

Aurora Veil is an- interesting case to me. I predominantly play UU this gen, so I've seen just how troublesome this battlefield condition (not sure what else to call it) can be under certain circumstances. However, as I stated in my post giving my opinions on the ban-slate, I didn't think Vanilluxe was really problematic and argued (not particularly controversially) that the cone was easily one of the least broken mons on that slate. While some of my opinions have changed, my opinion on Vanil hasn't; when you really look at it, Vanilluxe just doesn't do that much. It has terrible coverage, it barely does jack against the tier's Steels (as I previously calced, it fails to 2HKO offensive Togedemaru), its non-Veil utility is lackluster to say the least- pretty much the only reason it might be a problem is Veil. That said, Veil has definitely been a great playstyle in NU since the drops. NU admittedly doesn't see much activity in my area, which may make it more surprising that about half of the teams I've seen on ladder involve Hail & Veil in some way. At the very least, Veil is very common right now. With that said, here are the points I can see being made about Hail/Veil:

Pro-Action

1. The extra bulk from Veil can make it excessively difficult to play around certain mons. From what I saw in UU, the big reason why Veil was such a big issue was because of how it naturally makes it harder to revenge kill sweepers. With just one move, a sweeper of normally okay bulk suddenly starts living crazy strong hits, which means it can potentially kill you while you're trying to revenge it. In NU, a lot of sweepers tend to skew slower and bulkier, meaning that dangerous sweepers who could already survive one hit can suddenly require multiple mons to take it down, in which time it will quite possibly take at least one mon on your side unless you are very careful with your counterplay.
2. The need to counteract Veil can inherently put more defensive playstyles at a disadvantage. The main thing holding back Abomasnow and Vanilluxe as Veil setters when compared to A. Tales is their lackluster speed tier, meaning that faster mons can potentially take them out of the equation before Veil enters the picture. That may be easy for offensive builds, but defensive teams tend to be slower, meaning that that style of team may only have one or two mons that can pull that off. This naturally forces them to be protective of their faster mons, as losing them might just mean losing the game outright when opposing Veil is in play. As such, one could argue that Veil HO constrains the kinds of builds players can use, making it centralizing; I don't necessarily think this is the case, but others might.
3. Extra chip from Hail. A small but potentially crucial point is that Hail hurts all non-Ice types each turn, providing extra chip damage. This may initially seem insignificant, but when utilized on an HO playstyle that extra bit of chip can mean the difference between scoring a KO and falling just short and being KOed back. It's not problematic in and of itself, but it can increase the difficulty in playing around dangerous sweepers.
4. A. Sandslash. Even outside of Veil, Hail provides one key threat that can be a big threat: Slush Rush A. Sandslash. Under Hail, Slash can potentially outspeed the whole (non-Scarf) tier bar Ninjask, and Ninjask does not win the 1v1 unless Slash has already taken a good deal of chip. With either Band or SD, Slash can potentially be a nightmare for any team ill-prepared for it. While you might think revenge-killing wouldn't be that hard, its solid Defense and the added bulk of Veil can make it surprisingly durable without a SE hit. Granted, I would not say A. Slash itself is broken as it has lackluster special bulk, isn't too overwhelming outside Hail and does possess defensive counterplay.

Anti-Action

1. Abomasnow and Vanilluxe have lackluster defensive utility. Simply put, neither of these mons are particularly valued for their defensive/support role. Pure ICE is an awful defensive typing, and while Abomasnow's additional GRASS type provides some useful resistances (mainly Water), it also stacks on even more weaknesses. This means that either option can have a hard time getting in, especially since NU has no lack of mons that have that STAB SE button. The other issue is that, outside of Veil, neither of them really provide much utility; Vanilluxe has Taunt and Explosion (hence why HailVeil seems to be most popular for HO builds), meaning that you'd better be able to make the most out of Hail because after going boom you don't get another chance, while Abomsnow has- Leech Seed, which isn't really that conducive to Veil setting.
2. Abomsnow and Vanilluxe both have a lackluster speed tier. While A. Ninetales was definitely a bit much for UU, it had one thing neither of the NU hail setters have: a good speed tier. 109 was killer by UU standards, meaning that Tales had a naturally easy time getting Veil up. NU, however, has no shortage of mons that can outspeed the two setters, taking them out or in some cases Taunting them before they have a chance to get Veil up. Neither really has any way to get around this besides Scarf (locking yourself into a status move has some noticeable downsides) or getting a teammate to provide Tailwind support (which may not be an ideal use of that team slot).
3. Many of NU's set up sweepers tend to skew slower. Here we get to another big difference I see between this and the case of UU Veil; namely, the set up sweepers of NU tend to be on the slower side. There are a few faster ones, sure, like Ribombee, Gallade and Silvally-Whatever, but most of them are slower. The reason the sweepers + Tales' Veil proved too much in UU is because a lot of them skewed faster, meaning that with the bulk provided by Veil they could be extremely difficult to revenge kill. When the sweepers are slower, you don't need to rely as much on Speed in order to play around them.
4. Defog. A rather simple point: if you have a Defog user, a category which include fairly good mons like Rotom and Silvally, you can simply blow away Veil. I don't think this point is as strong since Defog isn't as common in NU and many teams are more inclined to use Spin, but it is worth mentioning at least.

There may very well be more points on both sides of the argument, but I feel that is at least a good baseline. As for where I stand on the issue- well, the reason coming to an agreement on this might be difficult is because the Veil issue is kind of a perfect storm of not problematic things potentially (potentially) being problematic together. Vanilluxe and Abomasnow aren't overwhelming in and of themselves. Hail isn't overwhelming in and of itself. A. Slash isn't overwhelming in and of itself. Most of these sweepers aren't overwhelming in and of themselves. Hell, even Veil isn't broken in a vacuum. I guess what I'm trying to say: if we do think Hail/Veil HO is overwhelming, what exactly should be done?

• Reban Vanilluxe? Vanilluxe is probably the better setter, but even if it goes Abomasnow will just take its place. Sure, those added weaknesses and slower speed might be enough to keep Veil HO in check with just Snow, but that doesn't seem the most likely scenario to me.
• Ban Snow Warning? This seems like something that should only be done as a last resort; as I've argued, neither Hail setter is that big a problem on their own. The only thing banning automatic Hail would really accomplish is making several other Ice types worse.
• Ban Aurora Veil? While some may see this as the most intuitive option, banning moves has always been a tricky business for the competitive scene. The only moves that have ever been banned were either obviously uncompetitive (like Double Team) or promoted strategies that were overly easy to abuse (like Baton Pass). And those kinds of bans are usually for all tiers. As far as I can tell, there has never been a move that was only banned from lower tiers (without being banned from higher tiers later), so banning Veil would inherently be setting a brand new precedent for all of Smogon. Sure, removing Veil would probably have a high chance of clearing any issues up, but I'm not sure enough of the community would be willing to take such a drastic step.

Let me make it clear that these last three proposals are all hypothetical; I personally am not actually convinced Hail/Veil HO is broken, even if it is pretty damn good. Still, there may be a major point or two that I've overlooked, so feel free to put those points out there if you have them.
Edit: So, it turns out Veil was banned from RU last gen. As such, I will say that if any action is taken about this, I would prefer a ban on the move Aurora Veil.

 

[Monky25]

Aurora Veil is an- interesting case to me. I predominantly play UU this gen, so I've seen just how troublesome this battlefield condition (not sure what else to call it) can be under certain circumstances. However, as I stated in my post giving my opinions on the ban-slate, I didn't think Vanilluxe was really problematic and argued (not particularly controversially) that the cone was easily one of the least broken mons on that slate. While some of my opinions have changed, my opinion on Vanil hasn't; when you really look at it, Vanilluxe just doesn't do that much. It has terrible coverage, it barely does jack against the tier's Steels (as I previously calced, it fails to 2HKO offensive Togedemaru), its non-Veil utility is lackluster to say the least- pretty much the only reason it might be a problem is Veil. That said, Veil has definitely been a great playstyle in NU since the drops. NU admittedly doesn't see much activity in my area, which may make it more surprising that about half of the teams I've seen on ladder involve Hail & Veil in some way. At the very least, Veil is very common right now. With that said, here are the points I can see being made about Hail/Veil:

Pro-Action

1. The extra bulk from Veil can make it excessively difficult to play around certain mons. From what I saw in UU, the big reason why Veil was such a big issue was because of how it naturally makes it harder to revenge kill sweepers. With just one move, a sweeper of normally okay bulk suddenly starts living crazy strong hits, which means it can potentially kill you while you're trying to revenge it. In NU, a lot of sweepers tend to skew slower and bulkier, meaning that dangerous sweepers who could already survive one hit can suddenly require multiple mons to take it down, in which time it will quite possibly take at least one mon on your side unless you are very careful with your counterplay.
2. The need to counteract Veil can inherently put more defensive playstyles at a disadvantage. The main thing holding back Abomasnow and Vanilluxe as Veil setters when compared to A. Tales is their lackluster speed tier, meaning that faster mons can potentially take them out of the equation before Veil enters the picture. That may be easy for offensive builds, but defensive teams tend to be slower, meaning that that style of team may only have one or two mons that can pull that off. This naturally forces them to be protective of their faster mons, as losing them might just mean losing the game outright when opposing Veil is in play. As such, one could argue that Veil HO constrains the kinds of builds players can use, making it centralizing; I don't necessarily think this is the case, but others might.
3. Extra chip from Hail. A small but potentially crucial point is that Hail hurts all non-Ice types each turn, providing extra chip damage. This may initially seem insignificant, but when utilized on an HO playstyle that extra bit of chip can mean the difference between scoring a KO and falling just short and being KOed back. It's not problematic in and of itself, but it can increase the difficulty in playing around dangerous sweepers.
4. A. Sandslash. Even outside of Veil, Hail provides one key threat that can be a big threat: Slush Rush A. Sandslash. Under Hail, Slash can potentially outspeed the whole (non-Scarf) tier bar Ninjask, and Ninjask does not win the 1v1 unless Slash has already taken a good deal of chip. With either Band or SD, Slash can potentially be a nightmare for any team ill-prepared for it. While you might think revenge-killing wouldn't be that hard, its solid Defense and the added bulk of Veil can make it surprisingly durable without a SE hit. Granted, I would not say A. Slash itself is broken as it has lackluster special bulk, isn't too fast overwhelming Hail and does possess defensive counterplay.

Anti-Action

1. Abomasnow and Vanilluxe have lackluster defensive utility. Simply put, neither of these mons are particularly valued for their defensive/support role. Pure ICE is an awful defensive typing, and while Abomasnow's additional GRASS type provides some useful resistances (mainly Water), it also stacks on even more weaknesses. This means that either option can have a hard time getting in, especially since NU has no lack of mons that have that STAB SE button. The other issue is that, outside of Veil, neither of them really provide much utility; Vanilluxe has Taunt and Explosion (hence why HailVeil seems to be most popular for HO builds), meaning that you'd better be able to make the most out of Hail because after going boom you don't get another chance, while Abomsnow has- Leech Seed, which isn't really that conducive to Veil setting.
2. Abomsnow and Vanilluxe both have a lackluster speed tier. While A. Ninetales was definitely a bit much for UU, it had one thing neither of the NU hail setters have: a good speed tier. 109 was killer by NU standards, meaning that Tales had a naturally easy time getting Veil up. NU, however, has no shortage of mons that can outspeed the two setters, taking them out or in some cases Taunting them before they have a chance to get Veil up. Neither really has any way to get around this besides Scarf (locking yourself into a status move has some noticeable downsides) or getting a teammate to provide Tailwind support (which may not be an ideal use of that team slot).
3. Many of NU's set up sweepers tend to skew slower. Here we get to another big difference I see between this and the case of UU Veil; namely, the set up sweepers of NU tend to be on the slower side. There are a few faster ones, sure, like Ribombee, Gallade and Silvally-Whatever, but most of them are slower. The reason the sweepers + Tales' Veil proved too much in UU is because a lot of them skewed faster, meaning that with the bulk provided by Veil they could be extremely difficult to revenge kill. When the sweepers are slower, you don't need to rely as much on Speed in order to play around them.
4. Defog. A rather simple point: if you have a Defog user, a category which include fairly good mons like Rotom and Silvally, you can simply blow away Veil. I don't think this point is as strong since Defog isn't as common in NU and many teams are more inclined to use Spin, but it is worth mentioning at least.

There may very well be more points on both sides of the argument, but I feel that is at least a good baseline. As for where I stand on the issue- well, the reason coming to an agreement on this might be difficult is because the Veil issue is kind of a prefect storm of not problematic things potentially (potentially) being problematic together. Vanilluxe and Abomasnow aren't overwhelming in and of themselves. Hail isn't overwhelming in and of itself. A. Slash isn't overwhelming in and of itself. Most of these sweepers aren't overwhelming in and of themselves. Hell, even Veil isn't broken in a vacuum. I guess what I'm trying to say: if we do think Hail/Veil HO is overwhelming, what exactly should be done?

• Reban Vanilluxe? Vanilluxe is probably the better setter, but even if it goes Abomasnow will just take its place. Sure, those added weaknesses and slower speed might be enough to keep Veil HO in check with just Snow, but that doesn't seem the most likely scenario to me.
• Ban Snow Warning? This seems like something that should only be done as a last resort; as I've argued, neither Hail setter is that big a problem on their own. The only thing banning automatic Hail would really accomplish is making several other Ice types worse.
• Ban Aurora Veil? While some may see this as the most intuitive option, banning moves has always been a tricky business for the competitive scene. The only moves that have ever been banned were either obviously uncompetitive (like Double Team) or promoted strategies that were overly easy to abuse (like Baton Pass). And those kinds of bans are usually for all tiers. As far as I can tell, there has never been a move that was only banned from lower tiers (without being banned from higher tiers later), so banning Veil would inherently be setting a brand new precedent for all of Smogon. Sure, removing Veil would probably have a high chance of clearing any issues up, but I'm not sure enough of the community would be willing to take such a drastic step.

Let me make it clear that these last three proposals are all hypothetical; I personally am not actually convinced Hail/Veil HO is broken, even if it is pretty damn good. Still, there may be a major point or two that I've overlooked, so feel free to put those points out there if you have them.

Actually, when looking at the smogon website page, it says that gen 7 RU banned aurora veil, so its been done before. Also, while not common, lower tiers can be exempt from bans if they ability is fine in their tier. The one example that comes to mind is gen 7 UU banning drought while gen 7 RU kept it. I may be misinformed, but from what I know it’s possible to ban something like aurora veil, which I think should be banned as opposed to the setters or sweepers and not affect the lower tiers like PU

 

[Rabia]

veil has mostly gone under the radar this generation because of the lead slot on these teams being sort of middling and the options to use for setup sweepers not being super dominant/strong; this has changed this month a bit because 1) Duraludon combines Cursola's power and Drednaw's speed, which makes it a generally better option for that lead slot (albeit still nothing special) and 2) the setup sweepers being stronger now. rather than having to rely on Pokemon like Swords Dance Silvally, Rapidash, and... Klinklang , we now have Pokemon like Ribombee, Kingler, the god moth, and others that are simply harder to stop, especially with the extra bulk from veil. I've used veil fairly frequently throughout the generation because I find spamming through games with hyper offense to be a good way to just get an overview of a metagame quickly, and until this month veil really hadn't left a super strong impression on me despite it being a reasonable enough pick. this month really hasn't changed a whole lot, but I do think the dialogue is worth having because of the potential for veil to get crazier as the power level of the tier increases (and it's usually the offensive side of things ramping up harder than the defensive side.

I don't think action needs to be taken at all as of now, but I do think monitoring Aurora Veil as the tier progresses should be something we actively do because of previous metagames that have shown us just how ridiculous single-turn dual screens can be.

 

[quziel]

Hey, finally started playing again;


Jellicent @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam / Water Spout
- Strength Sap
- Shadow Ball

This mon is proper good, and proper consistent. Being a very solid Ninetales check, having great special bulk even uninvested, and thanks to colbur you sorta win vs Sneasel if you play right. It does about 60% to physdef Miltank which is one of the few like, sturdy ghost resists, and Water Spout, despite being mostly a meme does give you pretty great initial KO power. Not the greatest set, but pretty damn cool so give it a try.

Scarf Rockers are also real good atm, just fyi.



Lycanroc-Midnight @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch

Somehow this set is sorta usable. It OHKOs Weezing with SR and a SD, you take roughly 60% from Ninetale's Energy Ball at +0, with sucker doing a sweet 50% back, and CC OHKOs offensive rhydon after a SD, and deals 60% to Mudsdale. That said, this mon does have noted weaknesses, one common one being Duraludon outrunning and OHKOing, Fast Fairys not caring about sucker, and a huge reliance on reading attacks right vs anything faster. That said, pleasantly surprised by it.


Also Veil is dumb and matchup fish incarnate, unsure if that means it warrants a ban, or if only Vanilluxe could have action on it.

 

[Katy]

​

i wanna pick on the topic about a-veil. I think a-veil is quite abusable since 1. there is no really good counterweather to disrupt a turn or 2 from setting up a-veil and 2. of the many new and some already somewhat controversial pkmn like ninetales, the moth, gallade and many others.
a-veil in my opinion should be monitored very closely as it can be a problematic archetype to face in nu. vanilluxe and abomasnow are really good pkmn in their own rights and with a-veil and snow warning they have the immediate two in 1 slot scenario created which makes them easy picks as a lead. the best thing to manage veil is by counter-leading to their setters with a faster threat, but even then your opponent pretty much can counterlead your counterlead and will just set the a-veil in a later turn of the game, which leaves a-veil just as good as setting it up early-game.
furthermore ice-types are great offensively so there is nothing in stopping them to dish out a blizzard to remove an answer to them or heavily damaging them especially in abomasnows case with its plenty of coverage-options. vanilluxe furthermore provides with taunt an option to cancel out the defog of your pkmn.

and with the many many drops veil found a bunch of new toys to be rather ridiculous especially with the option for rapidash, tales, frosmoth, sneasel, and plenty of others to have access to heavy-duty boots, which makes them not that prone to entry-hazards like they used to be in past generations, therefore they have found a way of "semi-longevity" i would say.

in my opinion a-veil is a very strong if not possible problematic archetype, with 2 great setters, the option to always counterlead, plenty of new and old set-up sweepers and the "longevity" in boots.

 

[Mariannabelle]

My next shoutout is for this silly thing:

Yep, I'm making a post in defense of Thwackey, since I dispute its status as merely a meme.

You all know what Thwackey does by itself. Click SD, hit strong priority. Click Knock Off, click U-turn. Maybe even click Taunt. Mostly strong priority though, since that's what he's best at.

Beyond that, however, I think people tend to underestimate the sheer utility that Grassy Surge brings. Consider:

A lot of Water types or Mudsdale or whatever that would be checking Ninetales? Suddenly, their positions are lot more precarious since the Energy Ball that they're counting on eating is suddenly powered up- only the hardest spDef sets are capable of taking it from full (and can't risk switching into chip).
Clawitzer is suddenly nigh-uncounterable when given access to Grass Terrain Pulse.
These two are prime examples, but other critters like Silvally formes can also benefit from boosted Grassy Pledge or whatever Grass coverage you can scrounge up.
In addition to that:
A plethora of setup sweepers like Skuntank, Ninetales, etc, laughing in your face because your Earthquake has been heavily weakened. If you have to run High Horsepower to compensate, that means the Terrain is making an impact on you.
A laundry list of critters like Silvally-Steel relishing the passive recovery that the Terrain brings.
Everybody that hates Stunfisk-G, such as Ninjask, Duraludon, and others? Laugh at Stunfisk-G suddenly turning into the lamest Grass type in the game.

Terrain teams are more than just 'lmao Thwackey + three grass types with Grassy Glide'. (Although that's another valid benefit of the terrain).

In any case, give Thwackey a try. Strong priority is good, and lots of mons benefit from Terrain in a myriad of ways. Also, the only competition for terrain is angry pyukumuku pincurchin, which is lol pincurchin (to be fair, it sets hazards, hits hard, and recovers. still think it's bad)

 

[poh]

Sup.

I think that veil isnt as problematic as people make it out to be. I'm not saying it's a bad archetype cause it definitely can be troublesome to play against. I wanna start by saying Abomasnow should not be used as a veil setter cause it's slow and Vanilluxe does things like boom to retain momentum or taunt to prevent the defog. Then there's the debate between light clay or boots on Vanilluxe. Light clay gives you more turns but makes Vanniluxe prone to hazards -> dies quicker -> less veil, on the other hand boots negate hazards but give you less veil turns -> your sweepers have less veil to abuse. It's not an ideal scenario either way. The tier also has some good anti-offense measures like Sneasel and Ninjask who actually feast on sweepers like Gallade, Decidueye, Ninetales etc. I'm also of the opinion that the sweepers don't have the best sweeping opportunities cause the tier got fatter with stuff like Mudsdale, the new bulky waters (Jellicent, Restalk Poli, Gastro) and steels (Steelvally, Alolaslash, Spdef Toge <- literally on every team i see lol). I see people saying Defog isnt common in NU but i don't rly get that cause i see plenty of Rotoms, Decidueye, Silvallies, Whimsicott (not great but def a viable emergency option)

Bit unrelated but i strongly recommend to use Rapidash more. Fire-type that can tackle the new threats like Ninetales and the fairies while having decent recovery and utility.

So i agree with Rabia: as of now no action needs to be taken.

 

[Catalisador]

HOT TAKE WARNING

Howdy, y'all. Roselia advocate Catalisador. I'm here to talk about some cutie-pies I think deserve some more spotlight than they are currently given in the SS NU metagame. Let's get to it!​

One of the best counterplay measures to the menancingly powerful Ninetales, resisting both its STAB Fire Blast, thanks to Thick Fat, and coverage Energy Ball, thanks to the quadruple natural resistance, and great 110/80/80 bulk, Appletun finds itself a niche as one of the tier's premier defensive pokémon. Furthermore, access to Apple Acid, a free SpDef dropping STAB Grass-type move gives it offensive presence in conjunction with solid 100 base Special Attack and secondary Dragon-type STAB.



Flying-type STAB priority and access to momentum in U-Turn give Fletchinder a unique niche as a revenge-killer and late-game sweeper in the SS NU metagame. After small prior chip or a Swords Dance boost, the bird can get rid of faster threats such as Ninetales, Ribombee, Vanilluxe, and Persian-Alola and, unboosted, it can easily get rid of the common threats of Ribombee, Ninjask, Gallade, Thwackey, Galvantula, Frosmoth and Whimsicott. It also differentiates itself from the likes of Ninjask by being able to punish Steel-type counterplay with STAB moves such as Overheat or Flame Charge.
It does require hazard-control support if not running (broken) Heavy-Duty Boots, which can hinder the ability to fit it on teams, but Fletchinder is definitely a contender for C tier, in my opinion.

Here is a replay against your stepbro (yes, that is his nickname...), former number #1 on the SS NU ladder showcasing Fletchinder's revenge-killing and late-game sweeping capabilities: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1191810088-eqtvdgyrwu168frj296aq63s1lfz66kpw



With a decent Special Attack of 100, a decent speed tier of 80 and a bag full of utility moves, Gastly is a pick I've recently been using in the SS NU ladder. Coupled with Choice Scarf and Grudge to bait in Knock-Off users or powerful attackers that can OHKO it, Gastly can open up holes for setupping opportunities for teammates such as Gallade, Ninjask and Ninetales, while utility options in Trick and Destiny Bond enhance Gastly's role as a trickster. Moreover, the ability to check the likes of Ribombee with STAB Sludge Bomb and non-Scarfed Gallade after some prior chip with Shadow Ball make Gastly a fun pick in the current metagame.
Maybe not C tier, but surely interesting.

Little replay showcasing Gastly's revenge-killing capabilities: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1191764121-bu3ob5v1kl25vi3ddmxy2nqcn69435lpw

Another one, even better, also showcasing aforementioned Appletun's defensive capabilities: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1191760137-j0tmm6ea80d6ucta9w32567sxzp0dhrpw



Hazard support is key in a metagame filled with *pesky* Bug-types such as Ninjask and Ribombee. Hattrem can put pressure up against common hazard setters thanks to a vast movepool in Mystical Fire, Psychic and Nuzzle, while RestTalk allow the hat to have a somewhat decent recovery method. Coupled with Eviolite and 57/65/73 bulk, Hattrem finds a niche as one of the best counter-hazard methods in the tier right now, in my opinion.



While not as prevalent as when Haunter still, well, haunted the tier, Roselia still finds herself a great niche in checking the ever-so-common Ribombee and Whimsicott, while providing Spikes support and status absorption. Furthermore, Grass-type STAB allows the rose to punish common bulky Ground- and Water-type pokémon such as Rhydon, Jellicent and Lanturn. (I think I have given enough Roselia replays for like an entire generation, so I won't be linking any in this post... But if you want any, just ask!)
Definitely a viable, worthy of C tier pick.

edit: here is a proof of how solid these mons can be. I've reached 1421 in a "sample" account in 40 total games, always using one of the aforementioned pokémon in my teams (and sometimes Grapploct and Lunatone...). I've actually peaked around 1480, but lost 2 games in a row to broken Aurora Veil/Bug spam.

 

[Corthius]

So I wanna take a minute and talk about two creative Ninetales checks because many people still seem to struggle fighting against it.

#1:

set

Sliggoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Curse
- Outrage

First of all, I do not take credits for this one! xerovis was the one who brought it up in the NU chatroom on PS and allowed me to add it to my post! So all credits to him.
At first glance, Sliggoo is with its pure dragon typing not the best wall in the current metagame. On the second glance you realise that the usage of steel types rose with the increase of special fairy and ice wallbreaker and one (basically more but we are focusing on the best one) pokemon really enjoys abusing these steel types. This pokemon is Ninetales.
With how hard it actually is to safely wall this thing with its Id say perfect coverage in STAB + Energy Ball + Scorching Sands(optional), many people say its borderline broken and everyone seems to look for a good wall on its team because even with checks, Ninetales can tear through teams like nothing. Thats where Sliggoo's pure dragon typing comes in handy. It resists Ninetales STAB moves, gets an attack boost for its own attacks when hit with a grass move and doesnt really care about Scorching Sands either because it can Rest the burn off which also gives it a niche as a status absorber. Furthermore, if the opponent underestimates this little snail it may be able to reverse sweep/break the opposing team wiht Curse + Outrage.
Obviously Sliggoo has its flaws. Even with Eviolite its still pretty weak on the physdef side and can be abused by physical threats such as Gallade and Sneasel. So a check for these is mandatory if you decide to run Sliggoo. Also, running mono dragon coverage isnt ideal with how common fairy types like Ribombee are right now, but if you want to you can fit something like Slugde Wave or Iron Tail (if you have the balls) onto the set.
Finally, some calcs for prove:

calcs

-->
4 Atk Sliggoo Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 130-154 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
+1 4 Atk Sliggoo Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 195-229 (67.9 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (after a curse or Sap Sipper boost)

-->
with no spa boost:
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 29-35 (8.5 - 10.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Ninetales Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 25-30 (7.3 - 8.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
at +2:
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 58-69 (17 - 20.2%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 50-59 (14.7 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
at +4:
+4 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 87-102 (25.5 - 30%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+4 252 SpA Ninetales Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 74-88 (21.7 - 25.8%) -- 3% chance to 4HKO
at +6:
+6 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 115-136 (33.8 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252 SpA Ninetales Scorching Sands vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 98-116 (28.8 - 34.1%) -- 1.8% chance to 3HKO
bonus:
+6 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo on a critical hit: 174-204 (51.1 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

#2:

set

Munchlax @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Body Slam
- Whirlwind

What can I say besides this is the thiccest boy we have right now. I guess if you are not directly looking for Ninetales counters this thing would never see the light of NU. But hear me out.
Probably the biggest thing with both of these counters is that you dont want/can't to be a solid wall for the tier. There are maybe some other thing these two can do but the main thing is come in on Ninetales and dont care + annoy the opponent and just dont let Ninetales sweep.
Munchlax has some cool trades that actually come in clutch. First of all it does not care about Ninteales at all, there is nothing tales can do against both of these mons besides being stalled out of PP. But Munchlax does punish the pathic run away Ninetales is going to do from you by a) getting a Whirlwind of that forces more chip damage via hazards and may bring Ninetales right back in to repeat the process or b) gets a Body Slam of which has a good chance of crippling the switchin. Funnily enough, if not running fighting coverage, Munchlax actually can wall/check a good amount of special wallbreakers in the tier like Frosmoth and Ribombee. Additionally, a Body Slam from a base 85 attack stat isnt to bad either and allows it to 3HKO the aforementioned bug types.
But like Sliggoo, Munchlax has it big flaws. Since it is a normal type it allows one of the best wallbreaker right now to come in on a predicted Rest: Gallade. While being a little more bulky on the physdef side, Munchlax still struggles to shrug off powerful physical attacks like Silvally's Multi-Attack. I'd still say give it a try and maybe you'll like it more than you thought.
Finally, some calcs for prove:

calcs

-->
4 Atk Munchlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 102-121 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-->
with no spa boost:
252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax: 36-43 (8.7 - 10.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 39-46 (9.4 - 11.1%) -- possible 9HKO
252 SpA Ninetales Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 30-36 (7.2 - 8.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
at +2:
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax: 70-84 (17 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 77-91 (18.7 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252 SpA Ninetales Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 60-71 (14.5 - 17.2%) -- possible 6HKO
at +4:
+4 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax: 105-124 (25.5 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+4 252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 114-135 (27.7 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+4 252 SpA Ninetales Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 90-106 (21.8 - 25.7%) -- 1.5% chance to 4HKO
at +6:
+6 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax: 141-166 (34.3 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 153-180 (37.2 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252 SpA Ninetales Scorching Sands vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 119-140 (28.9 - 34%) -- 1.8% chance to 3HKO
bonus:
+6 252 SpA Ninetales Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax on a critical hit: 211-249 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Ninetales Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax on a critical hit: 229-270 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

bonus picture

Thanks for reading this more of a hot take-post about these two more niche walls. Feel free to add your thoughts to them and maybe discuss some other funny sets you've been using. Oh and please dont get me wrong, I dont want to nom them for smth like C tier, they are prob not worth it.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Shouldn’t Ninetales’ Fire Blast calcs have Sun factored in due to Drought?

 

[kiru]

Shouldn’t Ninetales’ Fire Blast calcs have Sun factored in due to Drought?

drought is banned

 

[Just_Aaron]

Which one is preferred on A-Sandslash: Icicle Crash or Triple Axel?

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

depends on the set. triple axel (imo) is pretty much always better if what youre looking for is damage output. The expected damage- factoring in probability of missing (ie if these moves were used by the same user on the same target an infinite number of times) for axel is roughly equivalent to a 95 bp move whereas crash is roughly equivalent to a 77 bp move. pretty significant difference. so if you're running sd slash on hail I'd recommend axel unless you determine there aren't any significant ohkos/2hkos you miss by using crash rather than getting a 3 hit axel.

crash's main benefit imo is that it doesnt make contact, and as such, doesn't risk wearing yourself down to helmet damage. helmet weezing in particular might look to switch in to chip slash and force it out with the threat of wisp/flamethrower. if you're using a defensive sandslash and need it to check an offensive ice and ninjask in the same game, clicking axel becomes risky if there's a potential helmet user/ferro in the back bc possibly taking 30% chip there can be the difference between slash successfully being able to check what it wants to. so i will always run axel on offensive variants but crash on defensive ones.

 

[Expulso]

Which one is preferred on A-Sandslash: Icicle Crash or Triple Axel?

I think Icicle Crash is better on the bulky utility set (using SR/Spikes + Rapid Spin); it's more reliable despite being slightly weaker on average, and I think avoiding contact is really beneficial (for example, losing 50% from Triple Axel-ing a Rocky Helmet Garbodor/Weezing is really bad, because then you can't check Fairy-types).

On a Hail sweeper set, either move works. Triple Axel is, on average, about 25% stronger, but you risk having your sweep stopped by an unfortunate 0 or 1-hit attack or a Rocky Helmet mon).


edit: Lol Luck o the Irish really nailed it on this one! Sniped

 

[Oathkeeper]

October Shifts

+

-

So, this shift just seemed about right in terms of what we could get or lose. To be completely honest, I kind of hoped we got more such as Coalossal, Arcanine, Vileplume, and Blastoise among potential drops but I can live with this.

Decidueye leaving is a bummer, yes. It was ranked quite high before our September shifts and was doing wonders before the new kids came in. Specs was dominant everywhere as well as scarf, SD, etc. It will be missed and it could be back someday.

Now, I can easily see Escavalier impacting the meta right away due to its typing and lack of Fires. Yes, I know Ninetales and Rapidash exists. Heck, even Firevally might start to gain some more clout given the Steel types we have now from the last shift as well as the ones we had already (Fisk-G, Ferro, etc). I can see about 2-3 sets on Escavalier right now right off the bat. A Swords Dance set seems viable and can pick off threats that are unsuspecting. Perhaps even an AV set given Escavalier's 1 weakness and can eat up special hits.

Snorlax, on the other hand, will be a nice addition to the meta (assuming it isn't quickbanned). It does appear to be difficult to deal with at first and the fact that it can run a Curse set or Banded set makes it difficult to predict. I expect to see the limited amount of Fighting types we have get more usage than ever now with Laxy boi being here. Gallade could be used as an SD sweeper more now. Sawk could start running Band over scarf. Poliwrath running a RestTalk set in there somewhere to counter the Curse effect, who knows? It is a possibility that Snorlax gets quickbanned. A very good possibility in fact. But for now, let's just enjoy it!

 

[Expulso]

I would love to hear some of the councilmembers' thoughts on Escavalier (as well as the rest of the NU community -- feel free to chime in!).


To me, Snorlax seems pretty busted. 110 Attack and amazing coverage means that offensive sets like Choice Band can KO pretty much all the tier's normal resists while still having enough bulk to avoid KOs from anything but Close Combat (which could be avoided with Chople Berry). CurseLax is incredible, setting up on like half the tier while getting enough bulk to avoid pretty much any revenge-killing attempts, forcing teams that want to reliably beat it to get the Trick turn correct or fit Taunt / Haze / Clear Smog on their team somewhere (despite very few NU mons frequently running those moves). IDef Cofag, which I thought could stop it, loses to Darkest Lariat on CurseLax, a viable option; SD CC Escavalier can even be handled with Heat Crash on CurseLax. Stat-wise, it's pretty clearly absurd, having about twice as much bulk as anything else in the tier. This mon definitely seems like it deserves a ban.

I feel that Escavalier is a less clear case.


Escav gets plenty of opportunities to come into battle due to its great bulk and an incredibly useful Steel typing. Once it gets in, it can choose from Iron Head, Megahorn, Knock Off, CC, and Drill Run, hitting most of the tier hard off of its 135 Attack, and that's even before considering a potential CB or SD boosting its damage output.

However, looking over my pre-shifts teams many of them would be able to wall it or threaten it out.
Weezing isn't hit hard by anything other than a CB Iron Head. Although Weezing is easy to chip, Escav's low speed means that it has to predict the switch and Iron Head or it will be forced out by a potential Wisp or Flamethrower.
Physically defensive Poliwrath, which I have used a few times (largely for Sneasel), is also a great Escav answer, avoiding the 2HKO from any of CB Escav's moves and being able to heal up with Drain Punch / RestTalk.
Colbur Berry Jellicent can switch into any of CB's attacks and threaten it out with a burn, even having the added benefit of Taunt for RestTalk Escav sets.
the blanket check itself, Mudsdale, can do well against any CB attack but Megahorn, although it would get pretty severely chipped in the process which can compromise its ability to handle the many other Pokemon it is expected to check; CB Iron Head does 42-49 and Mudsdale barely 2HKOs back with Rocks up.
LOL OK hear me out. Yes, they are OHKOed by CC / Drill Run and take a ridiculous amount of damage from even its STAB attacks (252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 210-247 (73.1 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). However, U-turn on Whimsi and Ribombee means that with proper prediction you can get them in safely to threaten it out. Being a one-time switch in isn't terrible for very offensive teams, either, since Escavalier is bulky but generally only wants to switch in to stomach resisted hits (rather than neutral ones).

These Pokemon can all handle CB to some extent; although Escavalier has a way to do big damage to most of them, it becomes very reliant on prediction when it is slower than pretty much everything that switches into it (of the above, max speed Escav is outsped by all but uninvested Mudsdale).

CB and other sets like AV, 4 attacks, and SD+3 attacks can also generally be held at bay by burns, which completely screw it over.
But ... Escavalier can run RestTalk + 1 attack + SD to have defensive utility all game long and break through pretty much any balance team's core, since very few Pokemon can threaten a 2HKO on a defensively invested Escavalier. With Rest, it doesn't care about Wisp.

This versatility might make it too much to handle defensively, so I would understand a ban on those grounds.

On the other hand, Escavalier would contribute a lot to the tier. It would provide the tier with a reliable defensive Steel-type, which would give us another way to handle major threats like Specs Ribombee, Duraludon, and Vanilluxe. I don't depend on the philosophy of "broken shouldn't check broken" here, since we don't need Escavalier to check them (for example, Sandslash-Alola handles them all except for a Duraludon body press, and Duraludon could be handled by a teammate like Gastrodon). However, it does give us a more reliable way to do so. It also just gives us a new option against them, which would be good because I find myself repeating a few defensive cores just because of how few Steel-types, Fairy resists, etc. we have.

If allowed in the tier, it would undoubtedly become a top option, ending up on tons of teams due to its ability to check so many threats and then do lots of damage off of the free turns given by its typing and bulk. I think there are ways to handle it using Pokemon that were viable and common before the drops. It would definitely be centralizing due to how useful it is, but I'm not sure whether it is broken -- and it does provide useful things for the tier!

I would love to hear what other people think about it. Thanks so much for reading all this

 

[Mariannabelle]

Snorlax is a normal type breaker that has tools to crack open everything that’s supposed to annoy a normal type breaker. While slow unlike Tauros, I think Snorlax makes up for it by being so bulky, it basically treats neutral attacks as a resist.

Just for reference, I'll use Specs Bee as a comparison:

252 SpA Choice Specs Ribombee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 172-204 (37.3 - 44.2%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

In case you haven't realized, Snorlax is the only* Pokemon usable that can dodge that 2HKO with no resistance and no investment and no defensive item. The only one. Just so you understand how colossal Snorlax's bulk is compared to the rest of everything we have available.

While Snorlax might not have a stellar DEF stat (65 is pretty meh), the HP more than makes up for it to make Snorlax fairly physically bulky, too:
252 Atk Life Orb Silvally Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snorlax: 292-344 (63.3 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Silvally Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Silvally: 214-253 (64.6 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Basically, it's not like Snorlax is balanced out by puny physical bulk- no, it's still on par with Silvally (i.e. decent). Especially after Snorlax manages to get off a Curse or something, the only reliable checks we have are stuff like Gallade or Sawk.

(Keep in mind that Snorlax is never going to be uninvested in bulk: after all, it doesnt' need speed, so even if it focuses 252 into ATK it can still stick the rest in DEF or HP or whatever.)

*I'm pretty sure noone else matches the feat described, but correct me if I'm wrong.

----
That's just its bulk. I don't need to say much about its offensive prowess, I'll just leave a calc here:
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 150-178 (46.8 - 55.6%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO


TLDR: Snorlax is too bulky for the tier and too strong for the tier.

 

[Katy]

once a OU staple for like 3 or 4 gens now NU, but I feel like Snorlax is a bit too much for the NU-tier, as it has reasonable bulk and can comfortably wall most of the tier w/o any issues and i think you don't need to go full spdef on it as its natural spdef is good enough in conjunction with its outstanding HP-stat. I feel like the 252 can be invested in the physically defensive stat to have some kind of a countermeasure against physical threats. A lot of people say we have a ninetales check but how healthy is it? The NU-tier just gets overwhelmed by Snorlax i feel as it has reasonable bulk, great offensive abilities with a large movepool and it can run alot of great sets, Choice Band, Rest-Talk, Curse.
The bulk is especially strengthened by the now less controversial but still good option in Aurora Veil and I think CurseLax is even harder to stop behind the Veil as it can even tank hits from the likes of Gallade and Sawk pretty well, after a Curse is up, Gallade and Sawk can also not comfortably switch into a Body Slam in fear of getting para'd. Snorlax can also break through usual checks with Heat Crash, Darkest Lariat and Earthquake.
I just think the great natural bulk + the coverage-options + the fact it can threaten its checks in Gallade and Sawk with a Body Slam para + big dmg output makes this pkmn def too much for NU as it has ways to even cripple its usual checks. I would say NUBL this monster.

is less broken so to speak in my eyes. sure we don't have alot of fire-type pkmn to begin with with being Ninetales and Rapidash and occosionally Silvally-Fire but i think Escavalier without Rest and / or Leftovers struggles with reliable Recovery therefore it is much easier to wear down in the long-term of the game. Choice Band-Sets struggle to do its things without taking chip all the time due to Stealth Rocks and the same attribute can be said about Swords Dance+3-Attack-Sets which don't rely on Rest as last option its movepool. I feel Escavalier can be a great addition to the tier, but I would still keep an eye on it, however.

 

[Mr.Bossaru]

drizzle is ban still, so it can't rain on me ;c

 

[Zneon]

Yo party people, NU shifts time. Imma be honest with you I was expecting more Pokemon, but I don't even think that matters because the stuff we got are insane, and its only 2 Pokemon, first I'm going to start with the more impactful drop.


Snorlax

Simply put, I think Snorlax right now looks broken as shit, it has amazing stats along with a gigantic movepool alongside useful ability, notably Thick Fat. I feel there is so much you can do with Snorlax I don't even know where to begin, its just so versatile and customizable that its going to be pretty hard to not fit this onto your team, especially with how well it naturally checks almost all of our special attackers, such as Ninetales, Duraludon, Ribombee and Whimsicott, and I feel its going to use that to its advantage, CurseLax, CB, RestTalk, or even some stuff like Toxic Lax could probably emerge because it just has the perfect blend of bulk, power and moves to do this. CurseLax has the ability to beat pretty much every Pokemon in the metagame and you can EV Snorlax to whatever you wish because of those ridiculous stats, so getting setup opportunities would not be hard at all because its so naturally bulky that it can simply just use most of our special attackers like Ribombee, Ninetales, Vanilluxe, Abomasnow and Frosmoth as setup fodder, and unless Tauros, Snorlax actually beats Cofagrigus because of Darkest Lariat, so not even Iron Defense Cofag can even beat this, so I feel you're going to be forced to run a Fighting-type to beat Snorlax, but remember that they cannot really switch in because Choice Band Lax can easily just make them obsolete or simply just a Body Slam para, and it can just run a Ghost-type partner like Rotom or Cofag. If this doesn't get quickbanned, which I feel it has a high chance of, I feel its going to always force Fighting-type coverage, and even a Normal resist.


Escavalier

I feel Escavalier is going to be a much more healthy addition to the metagame but I am pretty sceptical about if it going to be broken or not, I feel the defensive utility of this Pokemon is massive, it checks a shit ton of great Pokemon incredibly well, like Ribombee, Duraludon and Whimsicott and use them to dish out tons of damage because how of hard it hits, while I don't think Escav is going to be as broken as Snorlax, I feel that it could be, its pretty hard to switch into and there are 2 sets in my mind that fit incredibly well with this Pokemon, Assault Vest and Choice Band, Assault Vest just makes it an excellent tank, as it checks the Pokemon I mentioned so hard and offensively checks other stuff like Vanilluxe and Abomasnow, two of our Aurora Veil setters, and it is probably one of our best answers to them that has dropped right now, if you exclude Snorlax. I still don't know if it will be broken but it absolutely looks like a top tier NU staple from these qualities and I definitely cannot wait to see what it can do.

 

[Corthius]

After several hours of crying - because I can't use the team Aawin and I made - I collected some thoughts, mainly about Snorlax.
In my opinion there are enough posts above mine that sum up the problems with Snorlax pretty well and I dont want to just brainlessly repeat that. In fact, I want to focus on the limited potential counterplay against Snorlax. Keep in mind that im a human so feel free to add your thoughts on that topic!
These 'counters/ckecks' will not focus on Choice Band-Snorlax because that is a whole new level of a threat.


#1: Phazing (in combination with hazard stack):
potential phazer (in no particular order):
Besides Rest, a berry (+ Recycle) or Leftovers, Snorlax is lacking reliable recovery. In most cases it doesn't care about the two turns of sleep because it's bulk allows it to bypass these rounds with ease which grants more opportunities for setting up which means Rest is mostly a fine option. And while that probably is its best way to recover taken damage it can be taken advantage of by phazers. Phazing allows you to 'ignore' the boost from Curse because your focus lays on getting Snorlax out of the battle. This alone wouldn't be the best way to beat Snorlax because you mostly don't do any damage and since all the phazing moves have a negative priority which means it will get a move off before you and most of the phazer don't have reliable recovery either. To help out with the damage problem, hazard support can really help chipping at Snorlax, forcing it to Rest more often and gives you the oppportunity to abuse the sleep turns. The biggest downside I see is the chance to miss moves like Circle Throw or Dragon Tail and the fact that you have to take an attack to get Snorlax out of the battle.

​

#2: simultaneous set up:
This is a pretty straight forward counter method - you set up along side with Snorlax and beat it in the end - so Im not going to fully explain every pokemon. Keep in mind that especially for most of the moves like Bulk Up there are more pokemon that can use them but I didn't want to make this even longer than it already is.


Bulk Up Gurdurr is able to take on Snorlax and beat it 1v1 in a set up war. Getting paralyzed by Snorlax' Body Slam even helps Gurdurr via its Guts which. Darkest Lariat does ignore the defense boost you gain but the calcs will show that you really don't have to worry about that. Gurdurr's good attack and defense stats allow it to play arround with it's EVs to be more reliable at checking Snorlax.
All of the following calcs are the 'worst cases' for both of them because there isn't a standard EV spread for Snorlax atm.

calcs

-->
252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 103-123 (27.6 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 154-183 (41.2 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 76-90 (20.3 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 112-133 (30 - 35.6%) -- 34% chance to 3HKO
+6 252+ Atk Snorlax Darkest Lariat vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 136-161 (36.4 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

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252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 218-260 (41.6 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 146-174 (27.8 - 33.2%) -- 83.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

I remember the time when this pokemon was a pain in the ass to play against if your special wallbreaker died early and you can't do anything besides watching your team get walled and killed. Dubwools big advantage is its ability in combination with Cotton Guard, which allows it to bypass Snorlax with a +3 defense boost and dealing massive damage via Body Press. If running a RestTalk set you can actually try to 1v1 Snorlax, which best bet will be getting at +6 and hope to kill with Darkes Lariat. Not to mention that Snorlax really doesn't appreciate the Rocky Helmet damage. The calcs on this are pretty extensive so I just add some that can matter in a real battle.

calcs

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252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Dubwool: 54-63 (18.9 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO
+2 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Dubwool: 107-126 (37.5 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. +3 0 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Dubwool: 42-51 (14.7 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO
+3 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. +6 0 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Dubwool: 33-40 (11.5 - 14%) -- possible 8HKO
+6 252+ Atk Snorlax Darkest Lariat vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Fluffy Dubwool: 142-168 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

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252 Def Dubwool Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 138-164 (26.3 - 31.2%) -- 15.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 252 Def Dubwool Body Press vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 228-270 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252 Def Dubwool Body Press vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 274-324 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

honorable mentions:
Both, a Curse Perrserker set & Falinks in general are more gimmicks than anything but can attempt to set up along side and try to beat Sorlax in a 1v1. Because I don't see these at a legit point of tournament play or anything I wont add calcs for these two

#3: strong physical attackers:
examples: Also a pretty simple concept that tries to abuse Snorlax 'poor' physical bulk before it can set up by aggresive double switches or safe pivoting. Chople Berry Snorlax is a thing tho and should be taken into account when relying on these to beat Snorlax. Also, keep in mind that you may or may not lose to a Snorlax that already has one or two Curses up because that mostly means you wont be able to OHKO it anymore.

calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 540-636 (103 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Flareon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 406-478 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 322-380 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

#4: bonus picks:

I know Im assuming that Snorlax will most likely run Darkes Lariat over Earthquake or Heat Crash but these options only speek for Snorlax' brokeness. Anyway, Mawile is one if not the only pokemon that resists both of Snorlax' moves. It has plenty of options to chunk Snorlax down with SD sets or defensive sets that use Super Fang to bypass defensive boosts and stop recovery via Taunt. Overall, Mawile has some interessting things it can try to make work to beat this monster.


Unaware should be something everyone has heard of. I think Pyukumuku is better for stalling out Snorlax than Quagsire because it can trap and PP stall Snorlax.


feel free to give me some criticism/feedback and add your thoughts on this topic too

 

[Rabia]

I would love to hear some of the councilmembers' thoughts on Escavalier (as well as the rest of the NU community -- feel free to chime in!).


To me, Snorlax seems pretty busted. 110 Attack and amazing coverage means that offensive sets like Choice Band can KO pretty much all the tier's normal resists while still having enough bulk to avoid KOs from anything but Close Combat (which could be avoided with Chople Berry). CurseLax is incredible, setting up on like half the tier while getting enough bulk to avoid pretty much any revenge-killing attempts, forcing teams that want to reliably beat it to get the Trick turn correct or fit Taunt / Haze / Clear Smog on their team somewhere (despite very few NU mons frequently running those moves). IDef Cofag, which I thought could stop it, loses to Darkest Lariat on CurseLax, a viable option; SD CC Escavalier can even be handled with Heat Crash on CurseLax. Stat-wise, it's pretty clearly absurd, having about twice as much bulk as anything else in the tier. This mon definitely seems like it deserves a ban.

I feel that Escavalier is a less clear case.


Escav gets plenty of opportunities to come into battle due to its great bulk and an incredibly useful Steel typing. Once it gets in, it can choose from Iron Head, Megahorn, Knock Off, CC, and Drill Run, hitting most of the tier hard off of its 135 Attack, and that's even before considering a potential CB or SD boosting its damage output.

However, looking over my pre-shifts teams many of them would be able to wall it or threaten it out.
Weezing isn't hit hard by anything other than a CB Iron Head. Although Weezing is easy to chip, Escav's low speed means that it has to predict the switch and Iron Head or it will be forced out by a potential Wisp or Flamethrower.
Physically defensive Poliwrath, which I have used a few times (largely for Sneasel), is also a great Escav answer, avoiding the 2HKO from any of CB Escav's moves and being able to heal up with Drain Punch / RestTalk.
Colbur Berry Jellicent can switch into any of CB's attacks and threaten it out with a burn, even having the added benefit of Taunt for RestTalk Escav sets.
the blanket check itself, Mudsdale, can do well against any CB attack but Megahorn, although it would get pretty severely chipped in the process which can compromise its ability to handle the many other Pokemon it is expected to check; CB Iron Head does 42-49 and Mudsdale barely 2HKOs back with Rocks up.
LOL OK hear me out. Yes, they are OHKOed by CC / Drill Run and take a ridiculous amount of damage from even its STAB attacks (252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 210-247 (73.1 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). However, U-turn on Whimsi and Ribombee means that with proper prediction you can get them in safely to threaten it out. Being a one-time switch in isn't terrible for very offensive teams, either, since Escavalier is bulky but generally only wants to switch in to stomach resisted hits (rather than neutral ones).

These Pokemon can all handle CB to some extent; although Escavalier has a way to do big damage to most of them, it becomes very reliant on prediction when it is slower than pretty much everything that switches into it (of the above, max speed Escav is outsped by all but uninvested Mudsdale).

CB and other sets like AV, 4 attacks, and SD+3 attacks can also generally be held at bay by burns, which completely screw it over.
But ... Escavalier can run RestTalk + 1 attack + SD to have defensive utility all game long and break through pretty much any balance team's core, since very few Pokemon can threaten a 2HKO on a defensively invested Escavalier. With Rest, it doesn't care about Wisp.

This versatility might make it too much to handle defensively, so I would understand a ban on those grounds.

On the other hand, Escavalier would contribute a lot to the tier. It would provide the tier with a reliable defensive Steel-type, which would give us another way to handle major threats like Specs Ribombee, Duraludon, and Vanilluxe. I don't depend on the philosophy of "broken shouldn't check broken" here, since we don't need Escavalier to check them (for example, Sandslash-Alola handles them all except for a Duraludon body press, and Duraludon could be handled by a teammate like Gastrodon). However, it does give us a more reliable way to do so. It also just gives us a new option against them, which would be good because I find myself repeating a few defensive cores just because of how few Steel-types, Fairy resists, etc. we have.

If allowed in the tier, it would undoubtedly become a top option, ending up on tons of teams due to its ability to check so many threats and then do lots of damage off of the free turns given by its typing and bulk. I think there are ways to handle it using Pokemon that were viable and common before the drops. It would definitely be centralizing due to how useful it is, but I'm not sure whether it is broken -- and it does provide useful things for the tier!

I would love to hear what other people think about it. Thanks so much for reading all this

I was asked to respond to this by the OP, but given I've already made a video here detailing my thoughts on the two (especially Escavalier), I'll probably be reiterating a lot of my points from there.

Escavalier on paper looks to be incredibly dangerous just on stats alone. The sheer bulk and power combined with a pretty good typing, especially for this metagame, make it a pain to switch into and take down. Escavalier can easily punish switch-ins with a strong Knock Off and check a plethora of our most common wallbreakers, including Ribombee, Whimsicott, and Duraludon. As a result, I view Escavalier as a very difficult Pokemon to fairly gauge.

On one hand, Escavalier exerts an insane amount of offensive pressure on teams because of its power, coverage, and ability to boost with Swords Dance. Additionally, because of its bulk and typing, it doesn't exactly struggle to find opportunities to switch in, an issue I have criticized Pokemon like Sneasel and Ribombee for having that has caused me to hold them to a lower rating than others do. On the other hand, though, Escavalier is painfully slow, which takes away some of the effectiveness of its defenses. It's great and all that Escavalier can switch into a lot of attacks fairly comfortably, but if it's always at risk of being outsped... well, that hurts it. Escavalier cannot play very proactively beyond aggressively double switching because of this; it can't really switch into a strong breaker like say, Mudsdale, and force it to switch out because of the threat it'll outspeed and KO it. Instead, it must take a hit and then hope the opposing breaker is forced out because of being unable to win the one-on-one (or for some other misc. reason like needing health preserved for something else on the Escavalier user's team).

I also do feel that the tier has room to adapt to Escavalier's presence. A big part of this is how prevalent Fire-types currently are; Rapidash and Ninetales are seen on a vast majority of teams because of how useful they are in holding back Ribombee and Whimsicott. In a tier that lacks random Fire-type coverage, this is a big bummer for Escavalier because it'd like to not deal with its 4x weakness being targeted. Beyond that, there is a fairly reasonable pool of Pokemon to punish Escavalier: Flamethrower/Will-O-Wisp Weezing, Colbur Berry Will-O-Wisp Jellicent, Flamethrower Silvally-Steel (fears Close Combat), and defensive Poliwrath with Scald all come to mind as relevant Pokemon that can hold back Escavalier from punishing teams as much as it wants to. I also do find that the lack of recovery is unfortunate because it means these heavy hits like Choice Specs Duraludon's Draco Meteor will slowly pressure it down, especially with the help of entry hazards.

As of now, I don't think Escavalier is problematic enough to ban. The tier has existed for barely a day, and compared to Snorlax, which I have much stronger reservations about (although am still not 100% ban on), I don't think it's as on-paper broken. I believe the tier and metagame aren't favorable to Escavalier to the point where we need immediate action taken against it.