Metagame NP: NU Stage 4 - A Whole New World (Bans on post #160)

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rozes

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NU Leader

Once again we have the big shift following a drop of DLC, and this time the tier has changed even more than before. We've gained a lot of pokemon, including all the NUBL pokemon we are unbanning, but we have also lost a few to RU and UU. Here is a summary of the changes to the tier, and feel free to check out the rest of the usage stats in this thread.

gains
+ directly to nu :aggron: :audino: :aurorus: :carbink: :cradily: :crobat: :electivire: :regirock: :sceptile: :spiritomb: :tyrantrum:
+ directly to pu :absol: :altaria: :armaldo:
:carracosta: :cryogonal: :guzzlord: :jynx: :magmortar: :mesprit: :relicanth: :walrein: :zygarde-10%:
+ ru to nu :centiskorch: :claydol: :coalossal: :kingdra: :lycanroc: :silvally:
:tangela: :vaporeon:

losses
+ nu to uu :malamar::froslass:
+ nu to ru :abomasnow: :mudsdale: :silvally:
:vanilluxe: :arctozolt:

This is a lot of new additions to the tier, and so as we did last DLC shift as well, we are unbanning all of NUBL. So from that these are also the gains we are receiving from NUBL. tagging The Immortal to implement these unbans for the the server gets updated.

+ :drampa: :exeggutor-alola: :haunter: :porygon2: :sneasel: :tauros: :toxicroak: :turtonator:Drought

In addition, UU is unbanning Drizzle, so it will be legal in NU as well.

Here are all the changes in a summarized list:
Aggron moved from OU to NU
Audino moved from OU to NU
Aurorus moved from OU to NU
Carbink moved from OU to NU
Cradily moved from OU to NU
Crobat moved from OU to NU
Electivire moved from OU to NU
Regirock moved from OU to NU
Sceptile moved from OU to NU
Spiritomb moved from OU to NU
Tyrantrum moved from OU to NU

Absol moved from OU to PU
Altaria moved from OU to PU
Armaldo moved from OU to PU
Calyrex moved from OU to PU
Carracosta moved from OU to PU
Cryogonal moved from OU to PU
Guzzlord moved from OU to PU
Jynx moved from OU to PU
Magmortar moved from OU to PU
Mesprit moved from OU to PU
Relicanth moved from OU to PU
Walrein moved from OU to PU
Zygarde-10% moved from OU to PU

Snorlax moved from NUBL to RU
Abomasnow moved from NU to RU
Mudsdale moved from NU to RU
Silvally-Steel moved from NU to RU
Vanilluxe moved from NU to RU
Arctozolt moved from PUBL to RU

Porygon2 moved from RU to NUBL
Centiskorch moved from RU to NU
Claydol moved from RU to NU
Coalossal moved from RU to NU
Kingdra moved from RU to NU
Lycanroc moved from RU to NU
Silvally-Fairy moved from RU to NU
Tangela moved from RU to NU
Toxicroak moved from RU to NU
Vaporeon moved from RU to NU
Overall this is going to be a completely different tier, and this is only the first month of the next 3, where we can expect to gain even more drops from UU and RU, as their metagames settle as well. So in this complete chaos that is the DLC metagame, I encourage everyone to post in this thread with whatever they are using/experimenting with, as there is no reason not to help these metagames develop while they are here. The Council will also be very active with voting once again, and reading the thread really does help.

Hope everyone has a great time playing the tier, and just remember to keep discussion in this thread on topic. n_n
 
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Is it the same thing as last time where Drought will still be banned? Especially since Drizzle is allowed?
 
Okay, we got an expectedly massive shift. I'll post my early thoughts. Keep in mind these predictions might end up completely wrong but its worth a shot at least with all this chaos going on right now.

Broken:

:kingdra:: Last gen this ended up getting the boot for its versatility, good defensive typing, and shockingly good power. With less power creep, guess what issue rises back up again? And with Rain now in the picture? Yeah no way this stays.

:tyrantrum:: Head Smash nukes most things in the meta, Close Combat getting added wrecks potential checks otherwise like G-Fisk. This thing is unwallable outside of Sandaconda (who will probably rise back to NU since we lost Mudsdale) and Gurdurr. Maybe Tangela too if you're generous.

:zygarde-10%:: So uh, Thousand Arrows means traditional Ground checks don't beat this. Quite fast, decently powerful for the tier otherwise, again only checked by Tangela (who is destroyed by Toxic) and fucking Aromatherapy Eldegoss lol.

:crobat:: Going out on a limb with this one. But on paper, this thing's ability to support teams is just nuts, and NP benefits from less of a power creep surrounding it (oh and it got Hurricane this gen), and doesn't have that many checks.

Sun and Rain: Sun gets a mention based on Ninetales alone. The only things that check NP Ninetales with Drought are stuff that's already borked to begin with. If Ninetales gets the boot, Vulpix sun has some decently strong options like Exeggutor as well. But Rain is IMO more of a problem child. Sea horse aside, we have Pokemon that can easily sweep offensive builds like Qwilfish, Drednaw, Ludicolo, and even Carracosta. Your best Rain checks boil down to Jellicent, Vaporeon, and Cradily, which all get handled easily depending on the Swift Swimmer(s) being used.

Most of below is mainly predicated on the above getting the boot.

Great (S to A rank):

:magmortar:: More Fire-types the better, and I'd say Magmortar is a damn good Fire-type. Great coverage and benefitting heavily from Boots, it suffers from a lack of a boosting move compared to Ninetales and less speed. But its much stronger right off the bat, and Flame Body helps keep U-turn spammers (*cough* Ninjask *cough*) in check.

:sceptile:: Losing Hidden Power blows for this thing, but otherwise it still remains a solid wallbreaker that can go both physical (notably helps vs Centiskorch, and other Fire-types in general) and special. Good speed tier to boot. I can see it hitting its stride if/when Crobat gets banned. Escavalier completely counters it though which means you'll need a Fire-type as a partner for this thing.

:centiskorch:: With good bulk, a typing good enough to check several Pokemon here actually, Power Whip as anti-Water coverage, 2 solid abilities, a boosting move, and more, Centiskorch is a damn fine Pokemon. I know some might say this is broken but I think it could be manageable.

:vaporeon:: Simple mon to explain really. WishPasser + bulky Water. Nothing more to it than that.

:silvally-fairy: (Fairy): Good support options and typing, has Fire-type coverage for Steels. Like all Silvallys no recovery but I think it'll be the best Vally in the tier.

:guzzlord:: Quite a solid wallbreaker with good coverage and power, but not great Speed and a Fairy and Fighting weakness hurt it. Still, we basically have no real Dragon checks and this can decently reliably beat both non-Silvally Fairies and Steels.

:mesprit:: Nasty Plot does help this thing a good amount, and it gets good coverage to boot. Healing Wish and Rocks utility is nice, probably a lot better than it was last gen that's for sure.

Good (B tier at least, maybe lower A for some of these):

:altaria:: Benefits from Hidden Power get yeeted and from Boots, and provides a decent support role with Defog and Heal Bell among others. Neat typing as well.

:absol:: Not great against offense, solid against more bulky teams. Good power with a boosting move in Swords Dance, but a mediocre speed tier for an offensive mon ain't great for it.

:regirock:: Body Press means you aren't passive against Steels anymore. Has a solid niche over other Rockers because of its sheer physical bulk, ability to check Fire-types decently well, and the list continues.

:lycanroc:: Power de-creep and Close Combat really helped this thing I must say. Again though, Escavalier. Might be underestimating this.

:tangela:: A decent blanket physical wall akin to Tangrowth in higher tiers. Typing could be better but could be worse.

:claydol:: Teleport helped this thing a good amount. Typing ain't great but it'll be one of our better removers from the looks of things.

:coalossal:: See Claydol, but replace Teleport with how this thing checks Ninjask and (the soon to be banned likely) Crobat. I have less confidence in this though because it fails to check Fire-types and the typing in general is bleck.

:cryogonal:: A spinner with good Speed, reliable recovery, and a nice offensive option in Freeze-Dry. Also a defensive Ice-type which hurts it a good amount, but the Speed makes this quite solid when compared to say Avalugg.

:jynx:: Lovely Kiss and Dry Skin give this a good niche as a sweeper. The type is iffy though with things like Sneasel running around. Still a solid sweeper.

Niche (lower B to C at most):

:cradily:: Has a weird defensive typing that can work against things like physical Sceptile, most of our Water-types, decent-ish Fire check. But the typing brings several notable weaknesses as well, and there's better Rockers at there.

:aggron:: Will probably be usable if/when T-rex gets the boot. A decent-ish wallbreaker but hampered by a 4x Fighting and Ground weakness and being quite slow.

:spiritomb:: Poltergeist is nice at the very least, and STAB Sucker Punch as well, but not the strongest mon in the world, and losing Pursuit blows chunks for it. Absol just seems way better.

:audino:: Truthfully on the same level as Aromatisse, but a Fighting weakness really hurts it. A bit passive too.

:carracosta:: It'll probably do what it did in last gen's PU. Be either a Shell Smash sweeper (who lost Hidden Power Grass most notably which stinks but oh well), or a Rocker, and it does a decent enough job at both. Typing is just not good in the meta though.

:aurorus:: Will prove to be worthwhile as long as Hail teams are relevant with Arctovish. Can be a decent wallbreaker and Rocker but shat on by Escavalier. Not sure whether to put in Niche or Good, its viability mainly coincides with Hail's viability right now.

Trash (Unranked):

:armaldo:: On paper better due to Boots, but has way too many weaknesses to work as a hazard remover, and too slow and outclassed even by things like Aggron as an offensive mon of its typing. If Avalugg wasn't any good this won't be either.

:calyrex:: Worse Exeggutor, who isn't even good.

:carbink:: Why didn't this drop to PU lol.

:electivire:: Still too surprisingly weak to really work, and we have several better Electrics.

:relicanth:: We have two way better Rock Head Head Smashers and another way better Water/Rock don't use this lol.

:walrein:: Worse Lapras and Lapras ain't viable here. Gaining SD is neat I guess but ultimately a gimmick at most. If you want a Water/Ice wallbreaker use Arctovish in Hail cause that's the best bet right now.

NUBL:

A rather short section, aside from maybe Croak I don't see any of these staying for very long. The Dragons have no real defensive checks (Eggy might be salvaged from the Ice weakness but probably not), Haunter helps from the fact we have not that many Ghost checks, Sneasel's combination of good power and Speed way offsets its terrible bulk and defensive typing, Tauros is way too strong and requires use of things like Regirock to have a fighting chance against it, and Porygon2 is way too bulky for the tier to handle really even with our Fighting-types.
 
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I super duper agree with the above post. While we do have many new and viable options to use (finally got coalossoal), I cant deny that the tier would be better once kingdra, crobat, tyrantrum, and zydog go alongside drizzle and drought. They are all too busted and even without them I still see the tier being fun and better. Considering how fast sigilyph and turtonator were banned, I'm surprised those 4 haven't gone yet. No opinion on NUBL retests, I want to wait until the broken 4 are gone before I assess the metagame
 

Rabia

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meta has existed for all of *checks watch* 3 hours, and I don't think ladder has been updated yet (or it was and I just haven't been online since then), so much of what follows is going to be based mostly on just observation:

:tyrantrum: This was nuked last generation because it was super strong with Choice Band and could run down teams with Dragon Dance sets too. Although the loss of Z-Crystals hurts a bit because it must rely on Outrage a bit more frequently, the power level of the tier is dramatically lower, with previous "checks" like Slowbro and Steelix not being present. There are options like Tangela sure, but the tier doesn't really look to have any consistent way to manage it.

:zygarde-10: A bit of a toned-down version of Tyrantrum yeah, but Zygarde-10% poses many of the same issues. The pool of defensive answers is definitely larger because it's weaker and doesn't have two bonkers-strong STAB moves, but Zydog is incredibly fast, has priority to bypass offensive countermeasures like Sneasel's Ice Shard, and gets broken move Thousand Arrows, which makes potential checks like Weezing fodder. I'm less opposed to giving this guy a shot, but I don't think it has long-term potential in the tier because of the aforementioned reasons.

:crobat: Imagine Golbat with less bulk but even greater Speed and capacity to run sets that aren't stallbreaking oriented. That gets you Crobat. I feel like Crobat might not be as busted as others claim it to be mostly because of how weak it is without a boost; special sets really do want that Nasty Plot, while Choice Band comes with its own drawbacks and isn't exactly impossible to wall. I mostly take issue with how Crobat's Speed makes dealing with it offensively rather difficult, as this in conjunction with Taunt + Super Fang gives it an advantageous matchup into essentially any matchup possible.

:kingdra: :politoed: So with Kingdra it's a bit hard for me to for certain say if it's a problem on its own or if Drizzle pushes it over the edge. Certainly, Kingdra would be a stellar addition regardless, with Dragon Dance, Focus Energy + Sniper, and Rain Dance sets all being great, but Drizzle definitely enables Kingdra to be more obnoxious than it otherwise would be. I think Drizzle is pretty dumb regardless and should be nuked as soon as possible, but I would like to see Kingdra without auto-rain support first before dealing with it.

:ninetales: :vulpix: I don't think sun is inherently broken. We got a few good countermeasures this shift to it (Centiskorch, Drampa, Sneasel, Lycanroc, Porygon2 kind of, Regirock kind of) and have preexisting options like Ninjask, Flash Fire Rapidash, and Golbat that bother sun teams to differing degrees. I could see this archetype getting out of hand fairly easily because weather-based offense teams with dangerous breakers and sweepers are always able to find favorable matchups, but I'd like to see some displayed consistency/dominance before saying to hell with Drought.

other general thoughts: Sneasel and Drampa never should have been banned, glad to see them back; Toxicroak was a borderline vote for me when I voted to ban it, so I'm gonna pay close attention to it this time to gauge how I feel again; Tauros has more answers now than it did in September but is probably still too much?; Heavy-Duty Boots Audino is going to ruin the lives of many ladderers
 

AllTerrainVen0moth

Banned deucer.
Oh, we have Tyrantrum, Tauros, Sigilyph, and Crobat, a lot of broken things? Of course Sneasel's broken!

Seriously though, I've never seen a problem with Sneasel. Sure, its speedy and powerful, but we have decent counterplay now.
 
Ok, got some games under my belt, and I'll just float a few of my first impressions.

GET 'EM OUTTA HERE

:Tyrantrum: Used it, had it used against me. It's hilariously broken. Nuclear STABS, badass coverage options, Dragon Dance/Scarf/Band are nuts.

:Zygarde-10%: I want to keep it so badly, since using this is so fun, but I can recognize something that's problematic when I see it. Base 100 Atk is fine by NU standards, and between its naturally high speed and access to Extremespeed, it can afford to go Adamant (Adamant still outspeeds Ninetales, for instance). Add in silly move Thousand Arrows and you have nutty Band sets.

:Politoed: :Ninetales: Funny enough, I've never felt threatened by weather teams since my favorite :Ninjask: doesn't have issues outspeeding Swift Swim and Chlorophyll users, but I still have some major reservations about the entire tier going down the sun/rain weather crap chute. Probably better to nip this in the bud.

----

I think that there's probably more to be done here, and I'll probably be back later. In my opinion, tier would improve immediately with the above gone.

Also, I don't get the Crobat hate, although admittedly I haven't tried any Nasty Plot sets.
 

Catalisador

Formerly iFeedback
Howdy, everybody! Roselia advocate and Torracat activist Catalisador here to give my quick thoughts on the new tier changes! As we all know, NU has changed a lot today so I'll be succint by dividing the new pokémon in three tiers: broken, outstanding and viable.

tenor urach.gif

me trying to find a niche for Torracat and Roselia after shifts

THE BROKEN

:ss/Politoed:

Rain is probably gonna be here for about two weeks before UU eventually steals Politoed, so we might as well abuse it while we can. Potent threats for rain include Crobat, with 100% accurate Hurricanes and access to Nasty Plot plus great coverage in Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb and even Heat Wave if needed, and Swift Swim abusers, mainly Kingdra.

Politoed @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Scald
- Toxic
- Encore

Kingdra @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Surf
- Hurricane
- Draco Meteor

Basculin @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Toxic
- Flip Turn
- Psychic Fangs

Ferroseed @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Knock Off
- Gyro Ball
- Leech Seed

Escavalier @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Close Combat
- Toxic
- Knock Off
- Iron Head

Crobat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Nasty Plot
- U-turn
- Giga Drain

:ss/Kingdra:

Speaking of the demon, this pokémon is undoubtedly one of the most broken pokémon we've gotten from the shifts. Being able to setup manual rain, abuse Politoed's rain, run Dragon Dance, Sniper or choice sets make this pokémon incredibly dificult to deal with, specially with outstanding Water/Dragon defensive AND offensive typing as well as solid 95/95/85 attacking stats and 75/95/95 bulk.

:ss/Tyrantrum:

Another broken Dragon-type, Tyrantrum has virtually no switch-ins (besides max defense Regirock and Sandaconda, both of which are easily chipped down) thanks to spammable STAB Head Smash and coverage Close Combat. Access to Dragon Dance also makes it an unpredictable tool for sweeping late game, while just spamming Choice Band makes it OHKO basically every non-resisted pokémon in NU right now.

:ss/Crobat:

Maybe not as clearly broken as Kingdra and Tyrantrum, Crobat is still extremely opressive. Being the highest speed stat relevant pokémon in the metagame while having outstanding defensive Poison/Flying typing and spammable moves in Brave Bird, Hurricane, U-Turn and Sludge Bomb or coverage Heat Wave and Giga Drain as well as access to Nasty Plot make Crobat a scary threat to face right now. It virtually has no checks outside Choice Scarfers bearing super-effective moves and, thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots, Crobat is able to switch around to a teammate freely without really fearing any kind of punishment.


THE OUTSTANDING

:ss/zygarde-10:

I'm not sold on Zydog being broken right now. On paper, it has a good enough amount of checks such as Tangela, physically defensive Claydol, Whimsicott, bulky Water-types, etc. However, Thousand Arrows is just THAT good of a move, being spammable STAB with no drawback. Furthermore, having access to priority Extreme Speed as well as utility Glare and Toxic to punish switch-ins can be somewhat troublesome. Maybe keep an eye on it for now? I don't know...

:ss/silvally-fairy:

Robbery Used gave us a gift for the holidays in exchange for stealing our favourite horse Mudsdale. One of the best pivots in the tier by far. Access to Defog, amazing resistances, great bulk and speed tier as well as movepool makes Silvally-Fairy just an outstanding pokémon.

:ss/Claydol:

Claydol is extremely underrated right now. Being one of the best pivots to Tyrantrum, Mesprit and Zydog as well as having crucial Ground-type and Electric-type immunities and access to utility Teleport and actual somewhat "offensive potential" thanks to Ice Beam and Scorching Sands hitting the most relevant metagame's threats super-effectively makes it a fantastic bulky pokémon to have around. Furthermore, access to Stealth Rock or Rapid Spin gives the doll an extra niche for teams that need hazard support.

:ss/vulpix: :ss/Ninetales:

Haven't tried these yet since Drought release, but I feel like they're gonna be pretty fun.

THE VIABLE

:ss/Vaporeon:

I am usually against more passive Wish-passers, but Vaporeon's access to Flip Turn sort of remedies that issue. Once the metagame settles down better without such chaos roaming around (I'm looking at you, Tyrantrum), I think this eevelution will be a metagame staple on bulkier builds.

:ss/Mesprit:

Great Psychic-type pokémon with immense versatility, ranging from Stealth Rock sets to Choice Scarf to Choice Specs to Nasty Plot to bulky pivot, etc. Overall, a great new addition to a metagame lacking in said psychic power.

:ss/Sneasel:

Dark STAB go brrr.
 
I need to post my initial thoughts on Kingdra rain because DAMNNNN thats broken

Kingdra  sprite from Black 2 & White 2 & Black & White
This demon right here has almost no counters, and the ones we have can't really come in more than once, especially not with spikes support from its very common teammate in Ferroseed under rain. If you don't have water absorb as an ability, it's nuking you with an absolutely busted hydro pump or surf. Almost nothing right now can take one or even two hits in the rain. And even stuff like Gastrodon or Jellicent or Vaporeon take huges amounts of damage from the ever spammable specs Draco.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 441-520 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 315-371 (67.8 - 79.9%) -- not a KO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 344-407 (80.7 - 95.5%) -- not a KO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 344-407 (80.7 - 95.5%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 405-478 (100.4 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 295-349 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- not a KO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Rain: 249-294 (66.5 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Rain: 178-211 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 290-343 (77.1 - 91.2%) -- not a KO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cradily: 265-313 (84.6 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

I think the best way to deal with this mon is through banning Drizzle. The auto rain makes this stupid mon faster than most scarfers and strong enough to beat up on everything. Manual rain from someone like Liepard or Sableye would really hurt rain teams viability and take up a coveted spot on dedicated rain. As for outside of rain, I think this mon will become a lot more manageable. Sniper sets will be super scary, but without the speed from the rain, it'll be significantly weaker and easier to revenge. And if it sets up manual rain, it loses out on the specs boost that makes it so potent and unwallable, letting aforementioned mons actually hard counter it. All in all, I predict it becoming one of our best special wallbreakers.

And who knows, maybe dd sets will pop up if rain fades away...
 
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Eternally

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NU Leader
Hi everyone! The first shift of this chaotic month is among us, and things are looking very exciting. Myself and rozes have been discussing what our first plan of action should be to tackling this unique tiering situation, and we've come up with a list of Pokemon for our initial banlist. Without further ado, here are the initial bans for the post DLC-2 meta: Tyrantrum, Zygarde-10%, Kingdra, Drought, and Drizzle. (Tagging The Immortal and Marty to implement these changes, thank you as always).

:tyrantrum: Tyrantrum was deemed too strong for NU due to it's ridiculous coverage, high powered moves, and immense strain it puts on any remotely balanced or defensive teams. It's able to a myriad of sets ranging from Choice Band, Choice Scarf, and Dragon Dance, all of which were too restrictive for the power level of SS NU.

:zygarde-10%: Zygarde-10% fantastic speed tier when coupled with Choice Band makes it an extremely threatening wallbreaker in the NU tier. It's STAB move Thousand Arrows removes traditional counterplay that common Ground-type resists such as Weezing, Rotom, Claydol, and Flying-types can provide, make it extremely restrictive to prepare and check, thus it was deemed broken.

:kingdra: Kingdra was banned for a variety of reasons, but primarily it was the insane amount of set variety it had which allowed it to break past any would-be checks and counters in the meta. It's Focus Energy set allowed it to blast through answers such as Vaporeon, Porygon-2, Gastrodon, and Clefairy, while Specs on Rain (or even on it's own) also required completely different checks which are hard to come by. It also has the bulk and resistances to come in comfortably on common Pokemon, making it a nightmare for many defensively oriented teams.

Drought: Drought has many of the same issues it had during it's initial ban, however these are greatly exacerbated by the addition of Ninetales as a setter, Exeggutor as an additional abuser, and a plethora of other Pokemon that make the playstyle far too overbeating for the tier.

Drizzle: One of the more controversial bans amongst council, Drizzle has been banned for the time being due to it's ability to shred through teams with it's fantastic assortment of abusers including Kingdra, Drednaw, Poliwrath, Ludicolo, and others. There has been much debate amongst the community on whether Kingdra was the broken part of Rain, or if Rain was just too strong despite Kingdra. To compromise and satisfy both sides of this valid argument, the NU Council is committing to retesting Drizzle on it's own in December. This will likely (though subject to change depending on circumstances such as higher tiers banning it or something more pressing needing to be examined) be our first public suspect test of the generation, and we're looking forward to exploring it further once the tier has began to adjust to the massive shakeup it has and will continue to receive through the month.

Unless the NU Council deems anything massively broken that requires urgent action, our plan is to conduct the next set of quickbans on the 16th of this month, following the mid-month tier shift. Following that, we'll likely move back into Council voted slates for the rest of the month, before we attempt to ease into a more traditional form of tiering as we enter December. I encourage you all to participate and discuss the dynamically changing metagame we have in this thread, as there is incredible potential for innovation and developing a very enjoyable metagame, stay tuned for more updates from the council throughout the month, and most importantly, enjoy!
 
I guess I'll take initiative and make a few comments on a few guys.

--
:Aggron: Head Smash go brr, with Heavy Slam/EQ/ etc. as backup. Here's a couple example calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Poliwrath: 186-219 (57.9 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Claydol: 171-202 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

You get the theme. Fairly bulky mons are just getting flattened cleanly through their resistances. Mons banned in previous metas had you guessing between two nuclear STABs and a coverage move, but in Aggron's case it's a trick question because unless you're running a very passive Rock resist you're toast either way.

In my experience, Aggron isn't even particularly hard to get in (either with a pivot or just by using your resistances), and it isn't slow as balls like some of our other wallbreakers. You'd think that Aggron was easy to take advantage of considering its big weaknesses to Fighting and Ground, but in practice it is super easy to compensate for those with common immunities to those typed attacks.
Basically, it hits too hard and consistent counterplay is squeezed into passiveness.

That’s all for my whining festival.

I also have a general shoutout for two categories of mons i consider particularly good right now- Dragon types and STAB Knock Off users, both of which we have a glut of at the moment. Dragon reps including the likes of Drampa, neck, and Turtonator, and Knock Off reps including Sneasel and Absol (shoutout to Guzzlord for being both at once).
My current take is that it’s hard to go wrong by abusing mons from these categories, since imo not that much in practice has changed for them.

Shoutout also for Silvally-Fairy for being decent against the above stuff. Sort of. Kinda shaky tbh.
 

Corthius

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I want to share my opinion on some mons I find interesting/BL broken or just really good. Be sure to share your opinion on these (or others) too, to faster develop the meta!

:ss/Tauros:
This bull is insanely strong. The main points that got this thing banned still apply to the meta. Its super fast and hits like a truck. The only new things that are faster we gained are Crobat and Lycanrock (I don't count Scpetile) which can potentially serve as nice offensive checks but cant switch in on Tauros' powerful attacks. The combination of Sheer Force boosted attacks plus its amazing speed tier is threatening against everything in the tier besides Spiritomb and Sableye.
To be fair, we also gained some pokemon that can live an attack from full and threaten it back like Escavalier, Coalossal and Tangela. I would say its BL broken or really really close to it.

:ss/Exeggutor-Alola:
I honestly don't see anything that has changed for this besides the meta being chaotic and being a little bit faster. It has two each other complementing STABs + the option to run Flamethrower to even hit steel types + an sky-high SpA-stat to abuse them. Sure we have options in Sap Sipper pokemon + a fairy type to make it at least a 50/50 which STAB move it clicks but if you predict wrong your check will most likely just die(take Silvally-Fairy as an example) and you for sure can run Ice Beam on any water type to not give this thing a free switch in but that is already showing how much of an impact this would make. For me this feels kinda busted, but its speed really holds it back even tho it can try to avoid that by setting its own Trick Room.
I should also mention that its best STAB moves are only 90% accurate.

:ss/Vaporeon:
Who doesn't like fat Wishes? Vaporeon is by far the best Wish passer we have availble right now. With in a fat 130HP-base this thing can heal the walls we got that lack recovery pretty reliable. Its access to Flip Turn only boosts its viability. Scald and/or the aforementioned Ice Beam are solid moves and do quite a bit of damage with Vaporeon's pretty high SpA-stat.
The only downside I have encountered so far is that Toxicroak and other water-immune pokemon just it on Vaporeon which can become problematic.

:ss/Crobat:
I was already sold on Golbat being a good mon but with the drop of Crowbat I really got to love the poison/flying bat. Its utility options are insane; it can run so many different sets with different rolls. Nice options are Toxic + Taunt/Super Fangs + Taunt/Roost/Defog/gimmicks like Hypnosis/Torment/Tail Wind. Infiltrator + Crobat's amazing speed also allows it to reliably check Substitute users like Whimsicott and Haunter and also works quite well against Aurora Veil.
The other set that is rising in popularity is a Nasty Plot set that abuses the new gained Hurricane + Heat Wave/Giga Drain coverage. With its fast speed tier this set can be effective at cleaning late game.

:ss/Aggron:
I was about to say something but Im just gonna recommend reading Mari's post above.

:ss/Centiskorch:
Fire Lash + Power Whip + Knock, what more do you need? Centiskorch is a nice addition to the tier, serving as another offensive fire type that can check other fire types with Flash Fire. This pokemon has insane damage output and is a really nice stall breaker with the defense drops from Fire Lash. Also, the combination of Fire Lash's defensive drop + Power Whip makes this insanely hard to switch into besides dragon types which mostly don't like tanking a Knock Off.
Also notably is its access to Coil which makes it even harder to wall. The buffed Leech Life can be used for recovery if you want to.

:ss/haunter:
Gen8 really is the generation of ghost types. The loss of Pursuit allows this to throw off powerful STABs without risking being trapped by dark types. Poison + Ghost + Dazzling Gleam allows it to hit the entire meta or neutral damage. Even tho its defensive counter play is rather limited, we have a lot more offensive counter play now (many faster threats and Haunter is frail as hell) and if it runs Choice Scarf you can try and predict the move it clicks and get in strong wallbreaker like Guzzlord and Tauros or Aggron and Escavalier.
Keep in mind that a Sub+Disable set can abuse slower switchins that rely on one attack dealing with Haunter.

:ss/Claydol:
After I saw this dropping I was really excited for Teleport + Stealth Rock/Rapid Spin action. But after taking a closer look, I realised this comes with a big weakness: ghost. For a pokemon that is supposed to block Volt Switch, being weak to ghost isn't really helpful. Besides Rotom dunking on Claydol, even Jolteon can threaten Caydol simply because it runs Shadow Ball. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that makes Jolteon good or anything and Claydol is still a fine pokemon, but that kinda hurts.

:ss/Coalossal:
aka the I shit on Ninjask. Im sure most will say its not that good of a mon simply because every single fire type runs coverage to hit it and I totally get the point, but it discourages the use of Ninjask at least for now and makes the tier a little easier to enjoy! :heart:
For real, the combination of both Stealth Rock and Spikes + access to Rapid Spin will mostly likely keep this thing in NU for a bit and tbh its Flame Body can come clutch against all the physical threats even if you die to a CC from Gallade there is always the chance to burn it.

:ss/Lycanroc:
I am pretty happy we got this. Its one of the earlier mentioned offensive checks to Tauros and can serve as a threatening SD sweeper with good coverage in Close Combat/Psychic Fangs and Crunch. Its access to Accelerock also makes it the perfect Choice Band user.
With access to both, Stealth Rock and Taunt you can also try to make it an offensive lead.
I would love to talk about other mons like Absol, Mesprit or Altaria too, but that would be too much

Thanks for your time if you've read the whole thing.
 
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kay

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:Aurorus: :Sandslash-Alola:

Well its that time again where we get a ton of new powerful drops and veil continues to get better. While we did lose Vanilluxe we ended up gaining Aurorus which more then makes up for it because now we have the perfect lead to pair with Sandslash-a which has taken up the task of being the dedicated veil setter. This combination is MUCH stronger then the lead Duraludon + Vanilluxe combo we used to have access to and add to that all the new powerful drops we got such as Turtonator, Absol, NP mesprit, Silvally Fairy, and SD Sceptile on top of all the other old veil abusers like Kingler, Rhydon, and Ribombee veil now has the needed set up sweepers to fully abuse the play style.

Veil is able to muscle past a lot of the the counter play (as we've seen this week in nu snake) because of just how strong the play style and its options are. You no longer have the option to out pressure the veil setters because under hail Slash is able to out speed every scarfer which means that no matter what you're going to have to play against veil being up if they veil player really wants it up and thanks to the wide array of set up sweepers now in the tier to abuse, veil now has the insane options it always wishes it had to abuse.

Short of running Pyukumuku I'm not convinced there's enough counter play in the tier especially as most of our defoggers don't actually pressure slash-a on the veil set so I'd like to have this at least be looked at moving into week 2 as this is something that's only going to get more and more popular thanks to its ease to build, low skill floor needed to play it, and the lack of options we have to deal with it.
 
:Aurorus: :Sandslash-Alola:

Well its that time again where we get a ton of new powerful drops and veil continues to get better. While we did lose Vanilluxe we ended up gaining Aurorus which more then makes up for it because now we have the perfect lead to pair with Sandslash-a which has taken up the task of being the dedicated veil setter. This combination is MUCH stronger then the lead Duraludon + Vanilluxe combo we used to have access to and add to that all the new powerful drops we got such as Turtonator, Absol, NP mesprit, Silvally Fairy, and SD Sceptile on top of all the other old veil abusers like Kingler, Rhydon, and Ribombee veil now has the needed set up sweepers to fully abuse the play style.

Veil is able to muscle past a lot of the the counter play (as we've seen this week in nu snake) because of just how strong the play style and its options are. You no longer have the option to out pressure the veil setters because under hail Slash is able to out speed every scarfer which means that no matter what you're going to have to play against veil being up if they veil player really wants it up and thanks to the wide array of set up sweepers now in the tier to abuse, veil now has the insane options it always wishes it had to abuse.

Short of running Pyukumuku I'm not convinced there's enough counter play in the tier especially as most of our defoggers don't actually pressure slash-a on the veil set so I'd like to have this at least be looked at moving into week 2 as this is something that's only going to get more and more popular thanks to its ease to build, low skill floor needed to play it, and the lack of options we have to deal with it.
Well, time to analyze hail again with a fine toothed comb. Contrary to Kay's opinion, hail has only gotten slightly worse in my opinion.

:Aurorus:

This thing has become the new face of hail, acting as the hail setter, rock setter, and veil setter all in one slot. Thus, hail offense has become more efficient in the regard that yes, it now can free itself from using the lead Duraludon set and simply transfer that role to Aurorus. Yet, Aurorus has so many more issues overall. First off, hail has just become so reliant on a single mon who, quite frankly, is pretty simple to take down. It's typing is awful to put it mildly, with weaknesses to fire, water, grass, rock, and an astonishing 4x fighting weakness. Furthermore, hail offense is so much more predictable now due to Aurorus' role compression while still having the same issue that hail isn't truly nuclear until both hail and veil are up. Thus, hail is caught in an uncomfortable position where it really needs Aurorus to be the dedicated lead to make the most of the limited amount of nuclear turns it has, yet Aurorus can just as easily die bc its bulk is ultimately stunted by its typing. Right now whenever I see hail in team preview, I simply lead Regirock and click Body Press. Now, I can only imagine how much worse hail becomes if your opponent leads a hard hitter against your Aurorus that happens to outspeed it. Overall, to one extent, Aurorus is a huge improvement for hail, but on the other hand, when your hail/veil and rock setter can't realistically get in more than twice (which is being generous), hail as a playstyle has really lost its consistency in a longer game, pushing it into boom or bust territory. While I know some may view this as OK due to the fact that Aurorus going down gets your sweeper in, I'm about to cover that.

:Sandslash-a:

In other news, this thing has stepped in to fill Arctozolt's shoes, and it has failed pretty miserably. Much of the strength of Arctozolt was its ability to blow things up as soon as it got in between disgustingly powerful Bolt Beak's and an excellent STAB combination in boltbeam. Unfortunately, Sandslash-a's STAB is not nearly as good and it does not have a move that doubles in power simply for being faster. On the flip side, it's typing is significantly better and its natural physical bulk is great. All that being said, Sandslash-a is obviously a net negative, as it simply can't live up to a mon that's being considered potentially banworthy in RU. In today's NU, it does have the attractive prospect of a simple SD 3 attacks set, yet... I just find it unimpressive. Here's how I look at it, Slash-a is a sweeper that becomes terrifying while under veil... *gasp*? Veil HO has been a playstyle ever since we got Abomasnow many months ago, and there isn't a setup sweeper that doesn't become infinitely more terrifying under veil, and we haven't banned veil as of yet because there is obvious counterplay. Besides the aforementioned abusing Aurorus' awful typing (which you can also do against Sandslash-a with its 4x fire weakness), there is already the ability to cripple sweepers via Toxic or burn.

TLDR: hail is a playstyle that has always been difficult to deal with if you lack effective counterplay, and as of yet, the principle force pushing it, Aurora Veil, hasn't been banned because it is not consistently broken enough to warrant it.
 

quziel

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This post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of predominant Hail builds. Aurorus is typically not used as the Veil setter on the majority of NU Snake Veil teams, rather, it is used as a dedicated lead, hail setter, and SR user. This means that it can run Focus Sash, and pretty easily take any one hit. Sandslash-A is common because once you lead Aurorus and set up Hail, it can pretty easily be brought in either after a sack or on eg a Fire move and use Aurora Veil and/or Rapid Spin to support its team, which really helps the style become resistant to Toxic Spikes, a traditional HO predator. Veil in a vacuum is honestly a tad worse than it was before, simply because Vanilluxe was better at setting it by itself, and you could easily run Dura+Vanil, but the increase in quality of abusers (Turtonator) is a major increase for the raw power and consistency of the style. Yes, Veil traditionally struggles against Toxic users, but you can 100% structure your team to avoid that. An example framework follows:

:Aurorus: :Sandslash-Alola: :Turtonator: :Crobat:
Aurorus @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave

Sandslash-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash / Triple Axel
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Aurora Veil

Turtonator @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Draco Meteor

Crobat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Giga Drain

+ 2 more abusers
 

Rabia

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I don't really have a strong opinion of Aurora Veil as an archetype beyond it getting noticeably better and not worse with tier shifts.

My issue with Segetarius's post is mostly that it assumes Aurora Veil teams are also hail teams with offensive Alolan Sandslash and an Aurorus to set all three of hail, Stealth Rock, and Aurora Veil. While that's sometimes the case (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1218758092-5p0evuabuwqokxs1ck4kphgrblacukrpw and https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1219003513), I would say it's much more common to see Aurorus as a suicide lead a la Duraludon or what-have-you and Alolan Sandslash as a support presence with Aurora Veil (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-526448), which eases much of the pressure off of Aurorus and makes counterplay to Aurora Veil's early-game more complex than just OHKOing Aurorus with a Fighting-type move.

I think it's pretty easy to be somewhat down on Aurora Veil in comparison to the hype it gets if you view Aurorus as being overloaded with tasks because yeah, those were more or less my thoughts before I was reminded that Pokemon like Arctovish and Alolan Sandslash get the move and are also great with Aurorus because of Slush Rush, which essentially guarantees them the chance to set Aurora Veil. But, as quziel said (dirty sniper), I think this post overlooks the predominant hail builds and chooses to base its claims around, in my opinion, less optimal variants. I think the addition of setup sweepers like Turtonator, Absol, and Sceptile in addition to Aurorus is an obvious boost to the archetype, not a hindrance.
 
I'll throw my two-cents on the pile.

First, Aurora Veil teams are, as quziel and Rabia pointed out, not limited to SR/Veil Aurorus + offensive Slush Rushers. I don't need to beat that horse into the ground any more.

Instead, I'll pose a question: What here should be voted on, assuming that it appears on the slate? Aurorus itself? Aurora Veil, the move? Snow Warning?

Aurorus is the only viable setter of Hail, at the moment. Would these teams be able to function if limited to something like Snover, or Vulpix-A? Honestly, I'm not sure. If you just ban Aurorus, it's possible or perhaps likely that we'll be facing the same problem again should Abomasnow or Vanilluxe become available.

A Snow Warning ban would nip the issue in the bud, and is in line with other weather bans that have been implemented. However, I've seen concerns about the poor Snow Cloakers and Slush Rushers. Perhaps a Snow Warning ban chops away swaths of skillful play that don't need to be chopped.

An Aurora Veil ban would certainly solve the issue as well, and while move bans are rare, they aren't unprecedented. However, it's important to consider that Aurora Veil teams are fundamentally Hail teams. By definition, Aurora Veil teams do not exist without Hail. Is it okay to draw an arbitrary line between 'okay Hail teams' and 'not okay Hail teams'? An Aurora Veil ban certainly amounts to banning one aspect of Hail and leaving the rest, like a Swift Swim/Chlorophyll ban or a Weather Ball ban.

----
In addition, I think many of the ex-NUBL Pokemon deserve more discussion and I'm eager to see it. Notably, :Exeggutor-Alola: :Tauros: :Porygon2: :Turtonator:
 
This post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of predominant Hail builds. Aurorus is typically not used as the Veil setter on the majority of NU Snake Veil teams, rather, it is used as a dedicated lead, hail setter, and SR user. This means that it can run Focus Sash, and pretty easily take any one hit. Sandslash-A is common because once you lead Aurorus and set up Hail, it can pretty easily be brought in either after a sack or on eg a Fire move and use Aurora Veil and/or Rapid Spin to support its team, which really helps the style become resistant to Toxic Spikes, a traditional HO predator. Veil in a vacuum is honestly a tad worse than it was before, simply because Vanilluxe was better at setting it by itself, and you could easily run Dura+Vanil, but the increase in quality of abusers (Turtonator) is a major increase for the raw power and consistency of the style. Yes, Veil traditionally struggles against Toxic users, but you can 100% structure your team to avoid that. An example framework follows:

:Aurorus: :Sandslash-Alola: :Turtonator: :Crobat:
Aurorus @ Focus Sash
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave

Sandslash-Alola @ Light Clay
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash / Triple Axel
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Aurora Veil

Turtonator @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Pulse
- Draco Meteor

Crobat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Giga Drain

+ 2 more abusers

I'd just like to point out that in my analysis, I was not referring to general veil offense builds, rather the attempts to replicate the previous Arctotwin-centric dedicated hail teams. Yes, the current iterations of veil offense that arent dedicated hail teams operate differently, and that would require a separate post. I was referring to something else entirely, but I don't blame quziel and Rabia for taking the conversation in that direction, as veil offense is increasingly the more ubiquitous form of the playstyle and perhaps I should have specified. With that specification, the post makes a lot more sense.
 

Katy

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Instead of beating a dead horse (Aurora Veil) i'd like to discuss the Pokemon Mariannabelle pointed out at the very end of his post, which are:

:exeggutor-alola:

I think this Pokemon is pretty good if not to say lowkey broken, sure we have more stuff than this back, and Sneasel can deal well with it with having a strong Priority-move in Ice Shard, but its typing is still a really good typing. Coupled with a decent bulk which is 95 HP / 85 Def / 75 SpD. Its main issue is it's a very slow Pokemon with only having 45 Speed, but you can make up for it with running it on dedicated Trick Room-teams. Trick Room, which can be supported by itself or other Setters like Carbink, Porygon-2 and perhaps Aromatisse.
Under Trick Room it is menace to deal with, with having a great Dual-STAB in Dragon and Grass and it can bypass its checks via its great Coverage-moves being Poison and Fire. Its amazing SpA speaks for itself with having 125 Base, means it can dish out strong moves with the likes of Draco Meteor, Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb, and Flamethrower. This combination is able to shred through most of the tiers Pokemon. Furthermore it has access to Giga Drain, which on its own is a very strong attack and therefore it is able to gain some Recovery back due to it.
It can also act outside of Trick Room-teams with Choice Specs-Sets - the issue in this Set lies that it finds more counterplay once the exact Set (Item) is being figured out, therefore its a tad bit easier to check it. But figuring out the different Sets can be a little bit difficult, as these are not the only viable Sets it could run. I think once the Tier settles this Pokemon can be problematic to deal with and it should be viewed closely.

:tauros:

I think Tauros is more a clear case of being broken ever since it has access to Coverage-moves which it can bypass its checks with, like Throat Chop for Ghost-types and Close Combat / Earthquake for Steel-types. Especially with having Throat Chop and Close Combat it has all the coverage it needs to break through most so called Checks. And coupled this with a Life Orb and Sheer Force in conjunction with a great Speed-tier being 110 it isn't easy to revengekill, as the Speed-tier leaves it in the upper echelons of speedy and fearsome Pokemon. I think Tauros is a threat, which should always be considered when building a team and it needs more than just 1 Check to handle it. I think this Pokemon should also be viewed closely.

:porygon2:

Ya. this is a demonic Pokemon. It has such a superb bulk with 85 HP / 90 Def / 95 SpD in conjunction with Eviolite its bulk is on a whole different Level and it can opt to be physically defensive, specially defensive or mixed defensive, depending on your team. Its Set can have a wide range of bulky support with Thunder Wave and Teleport, or Toxic instead of Thunder Wave. Furthermore it can help with setting Trick Rooms up with the help of its amazing bulk and it has Recover as a very good option to have the longevity to do so. I think its amazing bulk leaves it that Teams have trouble to break it when the Eviolite isn't knocked off in the earlier part of the game. Revengekilling it isn't easy as it has to be chipped or it has to be hit by a super-effective Attack, which is only Fighting, which makes it standalone Typing being Normal a super great one. I think as soon as the metagame settles down, it could become problematic to handle, as this defensive Pokemon just shrugs off hits like nothing. To add onto that it has super Coverage-options being Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Tri Attack, and even occosionally Shadow Ball to bypass certain checks, with a good SpA being 105. This Pokemon should be viewed closely.

:Turtonator:

Oh dear, the evil abuser of Veil-teams itself. Yikes. Shell Smash up and win is basically the Line it deserves, when we speak about it.
Only very bulky Pokemon can tank hits after it has its Shell Smash up and with a reasonable bulk 135 Def and 85 SpD and the support due to Aurora-Veil it can setup on a variety of Pokemon. And with a strong Fire / Dragon STAB-combination alongside an amazing Ability that crits can't bypass it, it can truly be one deadly Setup-Sweeper behind the aformentioned Aurora-Veil. It also profits from amazing Teampartners like Crobat, Alola-Sandslash, and a wide variety of other Abusers such as Lycanroc, Fairyvally, Ribombee, and Rotom. I clearly view it as a problematic piece in the tier currently, but with it and the aformentioned 3 lets see what the 15th Novemeber-Shift will bring us. But currently I view these 4 Pokemon as problematic for different reasons, which should be kept a close eye on for now.

Thank you for reading this wall of text and have a nice day.
 
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Rabia

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I'll bite and comment on some of the other highly complained about Pokemon as well:

:porygon2: I wouldn't pull the trigger on a Porygon2 ban in this metagame. I think there exist a slew of ways to restrict its ability to wall your team forever that are common in the metagame, in particular Knock Off and Toxic (Spikes) spam. In addition, we've seen some Pokemon like Substitute Vaporeon and Heal Bell Lanturn that help punish the common Porygon2 sets that include only Ice Beam as an attack. It'd be irresponsible for me to ignore how Porygon2 walls like half the tier, but I view it as similar to Cofagrigus in earlier iterations of the tier but even more vulnerable to the aforementioned Knock Off and Toxic spam because of its reliance on Eviolite for bulk and reliance on a good recovery move as opposed to Rest for recovery.

:tauros: I honestly haven't seen a lot of Tauros, but I think it's fine enough for now. The common Stealth Rock setters (Regirock, Rhydon, Carbink sort of, Runerigus for whatever reason) can all check it to varying degrees, and we've gotten some new soft checks in Vaporeon, Tangela, and physically defensive GASTRODON OOPS (not a new Pokemon but an increasingly common set) that help prevent it from running roughshod over teams as easily. It didn't get too much exposure in NU Snake last week, and maybe if it gets more usage we'll think more highly of it, but it faces a pretty significant amount of competition as a fast wallbreaker from Pokemon like Whimsicott, Sceptile, and Lycanroc and has a less-unrivaled Speed tier now with the power creep the tier has gained.

:exeggutor-alola: It's pretty much doing the same stuff it did last metagame, but the difference I'd note is that common Stealth Rock setters are less bad about letting it in for free. Rhydon can push its shit in with Ice Punch if you want to tech for it like that, Regirock can at least scout Choice Specs sets with Protect, and Runerigus... well, I guess Runerigus is viable in NU for now. Alolan Exeggutor is obnoxious for me to talk about because it's a dumb strong wallbreaker whose counterplay is predicated mostly around switching in immunities or 4x resists and just not giving it chances to wallbreak. I think if Porygon2 weren't as dominant an option as it is that Alolan Exeggutor would be a lot better in my eyes than it is at the moment, but that + Ice Beam Water-types not being uncommon + it being reasonable to pivot around currently makes me think it's fine enough.

:turtonator: I don't view Turtonator as the issue; rather, I'd say Aurora Veil is and that Turtonator is what pushes these builds over the edge. My experience with actually playing these teams isn't the greatest so far, and the few times I have they didn't feel particularly broken, but I'm willing to acknowledge that the issues I've said plagued such builds are not really present any longer, thus I'd probably support a ban on the move.
 
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Catalisador

Formerly iFeedback
Howdy, everybody. Torracat specialist and Roselia advocate Catalisador here to give my two cents on some of the metagame's latest trends.

:ss/tauros:

Near-perfect coverage in STAB Sheer Force-boosted Body Slam, Sheer Force-boosted Throat Chop for Ghost-typess and Close Combat for Steel- and Rock-types as well as a versatile last slot in Substitute, Work Up, Fire Blast or even Surf makes Tauros one of the most difficult pokémon to switch into in the current SS NU metagame. Furthermore, excellent 110 base Speed and passable 70/95/70 bulk makes revenge-killing a hard task for bulkier builds. Undeniably the strongest, most centralizing pokémon in the metagame, I firmly believe Tauros should be banned.

:ss/haunter:

Amazing offensive and defensive typing in Ghost/Poison and incredible base 115 Special Attack as well as decent 95 Speed makes Haunter a fantastic offensive pokémon. Being able to cripple switch-ins such as Roselia and Porygon2 with Trick makes the ghost extremely hard to check defensively. Moreover, SubDisable sets can also be a pain by crippling the likes of choice-locked attackers or bulkier walls that usually rely on a single attacking move. Still pretty dominant in the meta, I believe Haunter is banworthy.

:ss/exeggutor-alola:

Most people would claim Exeggutor-Alola to be restrictive thanks to perfect Grass/Dragon/Fire coverage and utility moves in Teleport and Knock Off, but I think this pokémon can be quite prediction-dependent and relies a bit too much on 50/50s. I certainly see Exeggutor-Alola as one of the, if not the one, most powerful pokémon in the tier, but I don't want to think that it is simply broken right now? It can be checked decently by Porygon2 and I enjoy the "mind-games" aspect this coconut tree brings to the table with its 50/50s. An unpopular opinion, but I think Exeggutor-Alola is a great addition to the metagame. Also, Custap Berry Exeggutor is so fun - lol.

:ss/porygon2:

The best pokémon in the metagame outside our clearly broken new toys, Porygon2 is simply the perfect glue pokémon right now. Being able to decently check most special attackers with ease while providing momentum in Teleport is amazing. Access to reliable recovery, a vast movepool for attacking options in Ice Beam/Foul Play/Tri Attack and even lure sets in Toxic + Conversion makes the virtual pokémon an extremely useful tool to have for teambuilding in such a clustered metagame. Also, shoutouts to Trace making Porygon2 a fantastic wall to the likes of Lanturn, Vaporeon, the fallen Ninetales and even Centiskorch to an extent.

:ss/aurorus: :ss/sandslash-alola:

What here should be voted on, assuming that it appears on the slate? Aurorus itself? Aurora Veil, the move? Snow Warning?
Aurora Veil is unhealthy, there is no denial. The point I wanted to share is that the move itself is broken, not Snow Warning. Although Aurora Veil needs Snow Warning to thrive (otherwise you might as well just run Dual Screens over Hail + Aurora Veil), Snow Warning can be fine without the free dual screens, with niche abusers such as Arctovish, Sandslash-Alola and even *shivers* Beartic. Even Aurorus by itself is a fine offensive pokémon, abusing 100% accurate Blizzards and Earth Power coverage. Getting rid of Snow Warning over Aurora Veil would only hurt the viability of said niche pokémon as colateral damage, which I think we should try to avoid at all costs.

:ss/turtonator:

Speaking of Aurora Veil, Turtonator, a prime veil abuser, is also a hot topic of discussion right now. I personally think Turtornator by itself appears to be fine, with decent enough checks to make it manageable, but, under the snowy realms of veil, the turtle then becomes problematic. I'd rather give Aurora Veil the boot and see how it would affect Turtonator than get rid of it immediately, personally.

:ss/crobat:

Undeniably one of the best pokémon right now, Crobat established itself as a top glue, momentum-grabber, support pokémon in the post-DLC2 metagame. However, it is quite clear we're going to lose it to the shifts in about a week. Therefore, I'd like to ask a question: how do you think the metagame will adapt to the loss of Crobat? Which pokémon will benefit more from the bat getting stolen by RobberyUsed or UU?

:ss/sceptile:

Good bye, Crobat! :poggaroo:
 

Expulso

I COULD BE BANNED!
is a Contributor to Smogon
Hi, figured I'd drop a few thoughts i have on these mons. Iirc council isn't taking any action before the 15th, which is totally fine because of the large number of drops we should get from RU. Thus, take my "ban" / "do not ban" recommendations strictly as hypotheticals.

===================

:ss/tauros:
I believe tauros is not overpowered in the current meta. I'll list both defensive and offensive ways to deal with Tauros:

Defensive Checks:
:tangela: im not even gonna post calcs, tangela shuts down everything Tauros can do except Fire Blast

:vaporeon: Physically defensive Vaporeon can always take 2 Body Slams with Leftovers and no hazards; it will usually avoid the 2hko after SR, though that becomes tougher.
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Vaporeon: 207-243 (44.6 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

:gastrodon: Gastro needs to be fully physically defensive, but if it is it can almost always avoid the 2HKO and recover it off.
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Worth noting that this means you can avoid the 2HKO >99% of the time without Leftovers, letting you run Boots + Sticky Hold and thus ensure that the Tauros user can't set hazards to 2HKO you.)

:rhydon: 252 hp Don avoids 2HKO from anything but Surf (which isnt something anyone should run). It struggles to threaten Tauros back before the Defense drop from CC, though.
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 161-192 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:sandaconda: same story; it avoids 2HKO and can Glare to cripple it.
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Sandaconda: 129-152 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

:regirock: Even without maximum physically defensive investment, Regirock can easily switch into Tauros. Body Press OHKOs in return.
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Regirock: 133-159 (36.6 - 43.8%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

:runerigus: Runerigus' ability lets it remove Tauros' Sheer Force, meaning that Throat Chop is no longer Sheer Force boosted. With a Colbur Berry, it effectively shuts down Tauros and can KO it with SR + BPress + 1 round of LO recoil.
(It is a PU Pokemon, but I believe it is genuinely good and valuable in this meta; this isn't the case of using some garbage just for Tauros.)

:escavalier: (252hp) avoids a 2HKO from anything except Fire Blast

:spiritomb: :sableye: are more passive but also check it well. i dont think spiritomb is a good mon but w/e
lol :cradily:.
:cofagrigus: isnt very good rn but also works

Offensive Checks:
:magneton: :duraludon: Choice Scarf: Scarf Magneton and Duraludon are two of the best Scarfers in this meta, and their Normal resistance means they can force Tauros out if they switch in on a Body Slam. This forces the Tauros user to predict big-time in order to avoid being forced out after doing very little damage.

(Fwiw, Magneton doesn't OHKO; vs a full-health Tauros, the best play is usually to Volt Switch out into Crobat to take the EQ / CC and then KO with Brave Bird. Duraludon can always OHKO after Rocks).

:lycanroc: Lycanroc is faster, resists Body Slam, and can OHKO with CC, forcing Tauros user to make a prediction on the switch to avoid being instantly forced out.

:crobat: if brought in safely, 252 HP crobat 2hkos after SR and cant be OHKOd by anything Tauros has to offer.

misc. faster offensive mons such as :sneasel: :whimsicott: :ribombee: (though the fairies dont seem very good rn)

Tauros is also limited by its average bulk and inability to force OHKOs; often, it struggles to make the thing in front of it switch out, taking lots of chip in the process. This makes it easier to deal with even when you have few or none of the above checks.


==============

:ss/turtonator:

I think Turtonator + Veil is a clearly stupid combination. With white herb, you can Shell Smash twice on pretty much anything and then sweep the opponent's team; sub lets u avoid status, which can be very cool for dealing with P2. I think it might still be able to become a nuisance without veil, but definitely worth seeing that in action before banning Turtonator outright. Ban veil first.

==============


:ss/exeggutor-alola:

Eggy-A is a very dangerous mon in this meta; Specs sets have a very difficult to switch into STAB combination + Flamethrower for the few resists, and Knock Off to put Porygon2 in range. However, I think bulky offense / balance have plenty of tools to deal with it. Versus those teams, Eggy-A will only get one or two opportunities, and cores like Crobat + Silvally-Fairy can limit it to a 50-50.

It could be considered banworthy for the oppressive effect it has on balance and stall; nothing can switch into its STABs after taking a Knock. However, it's also vulnerable to every hazard, and locking into Knock means it has to switch in multiple times before getting a kill. For what it's worth, I think semi-stall / balance structures can do OK through hazard chip + pivots like Audino, which can take one Draco / Leaf Storm then switch out with Regen.

Tldr offense/bo can manage eggy-a very well, it's possibly the #1 threat to stall but those structures still have outs against it. Probably not banworthy.
 

kay

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So I'm pretty no ban when it comes to most of the stuff in NU right now, but I think veil and Tauros are the exceptions to that. Rather then make another ban Tauros post I think it's better to address the above because I think it really over plays the defensive counter play to Tauros.

:vaporeon: Physically defensive Vaporeon can always take 2 Body Slams with Leftovers and no hazards; it will usually avoid the 2hko after SR, though that becomes tougher.
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Vaporeon: 207-243 (44.6 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

:gastrodon: Gastro needs to be fully physically defensive, but if it is it can almost always avoid the 2HKO and recover it off.
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 181-214 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Worth noting that this means you can avoid the 2HKO >99% of the time without Leftovers, letting you run Boots + Sticky Hold and thus ensure that the Tauros user can't set hazards to 2HKO you.)
These are at best soft checks. Needing to have hazards off at all times and be at 100% at all time for pokemon that are almost always taking some forms of chip damage during a game means you're only answering Tauros under the most ideal situations. I think calling both of these anything close to reliable answers is just unrealistic.


:rhydon: 252 hp Don avoids 2HKO from anything but Surf (which isnt something anyone should run). It struggles to threaten Tauros back before the Defense drop from CC, though.
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 161-192 (38.8 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

:regirock: Even without maximum physically defensive investment, Regirock can easily switch into Tauros. Body Press OHKOs in return.
252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Regirock: 133-159 (36.6 - 43.8%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

:escavalier: (252hp) avoids a 2HKO from anything except Fire Blast
Rhydon, Regirock, and Escav aren't exactly the hardest things to chip out and escav is even still a roll to 2hko after rocks (Its a .4% roll but it shows just how shaky this is the second you take any amount of chip damage) and without any form of recovery these really just don't last during a game unless you're specifically planning to pair them with wish support which I think speaks for itself if you need wish support to make these reliable answers.


:runerigus: Runerigus' ability lets it remove Tauros' Sheer Force, meaning that Throat Chop is no longer Sheer Force boosted. With a Colbur Berry, it effectively shuts down Tauros and can KO it with SR + BPress + 1 round of LO recoil.
(It is a PU Pokemon, but I believe it is genuinely good and valuable in this meta; this isn't the case of using some garbage just for Tauros.)
This is really only switching in once. I'm not exactly going to call this great defensive counter play as from my experience its been really shit outside being the 1 time tauros switch in but I guess you're technically not wrong if the Tauros user randomly just wants to keep hitting it and sack their Tauros.




but it faces a pretty significant amount of competition as a fast wallbreaker from Pokemon like Whimsicott, Sceptile, and Lycanroc and has a less-unrivaled Speed tier now with the power creep the tier has gained.
I think this the the biggest thing. Its speed tier is no longer king and I think if there is merit to keeping it in the tier its the fact that we have faster threats in the tier that not only revenge kill it but also give it competition for that fast wall breaker slot. I personally don't think that's enough to keep it from being broken as I think the 4th move on Tauros really gives it that edge against other breakers with options like Sub to abuse death fodder which removes a lot of that offensive counter play, work up to effectively increase its kill ranges, and fire blast to get past more niche answers. I'm personally pro ban but this is a good point for people that have the opinion its balanced in the tier.
 

Expulso

I COULD BE BANNED!
is a Contributor to Smogon
^^ to respond to kay briefly, I do agree that tauros can beat those checks with chip, and some of them are one-time switch-ins. That doesn’t make it more scary to me, though, because bringing Tauros in isn’t easy. It’s a somewhat frail Pokemon that struggles to force things out due to the inability to pick up OHKOs with Body Slam. Sure, Runerigus might only be a one-time switch-in if you catch it on the switch with Throat Chop, but it’s not particularly easy to bring Tauros in safely twice in the game.

Tauros gets few opportunities due to being too unable to threaten OHKOs versus much of the meta and not wanting to switch directly in. Although many of the checks I listed do have flaws that allow Tauros to eventually beat them, I think that it struggles to come in enough times to make it as big of a threat as it seems on paper.
 
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