Metagame NP: NU Stage 4 - A Whole New World (Bans on post #160)

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Rabia

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GP & NU Leader
Sigilyph is capable of single-handedly making a game 6v5 from team preview by invalidating several defensive Pokemon just by existing; the likes of Gastrodon, Mantine, Milotic, Arcanine, and many more are relegated to doing little more than double switching every time they switch onto the field because there is nothing they can do against Sigilyph. Its a very potent Calm Mind sweeper with just Psyshock and Heat Wave for coverage because so few Pokemon can contend with those moves at +1, and Psycho Shift + Calm Mind sets turn options like Bronzong, Copperajah, and Porygon2 into setup fodder. Sigilyph's overall coverage far surpasses Starmie's---like, it's not close---and Galarian Articuno's only niches over Sigilyph are U-turn and more immediate bulk.

:ss/sigilyph:
Sigilyph @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Heat Wave
- Roost

Sigilyph @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Air Slash
- Roost
- Psycho Shift

These are the two best sets in my opinion for Sigilyph at the moment and give it the most leeway around its checks and counters. Choice Specs is probably still fine solely because Tinted Lens leaves really only Porygon2 as a consistent switch-in, but I'd consider other options before using it. I think you're vastly underselling the utility of Magic Guard and how deep Sigilyph's movepool goes.
 

Mariannabelle

chill guy
:Sigilyph: I’m gonna stick up for psychic bird... thing... here.

Magic Guard really is nuts. Like, the importance of being immune to Toxic damage just cannot be overstated, because it tremendously increases the number of winning matchups that this bird thing has. Critters that would otherwise use Toxic on any other setup sweeper find themselves having to break Sigilyph’s assault with other means (read: their mediocre offenses). For example, what’s Milotic, or Mantine gonna do? Pray they can phaze or Haze, because their main attack (Toxic) won’t work.

Sylveon and Porygon2 are in a similar boat, with attacks that just cannot get past CM/Roost.

Sigilyph being able to Psycho Shift a Burn means you can’t count on 2HKOing with the likes of Bronzong or Copperajah, so they’re often setup bait as well.

And, after a single CM, Sigilyph is actually pretty hard to punish. No slower physical attacker is reliable; they virtually all either find their ability to KO neutered from a Psycho Shift, if they aren’t just blowing up under an Air Slash, etc.

So what if Mienshao can threaten you out with Knock Off? No sane person is going to regularly switch their Kung Fu Kitty in on Sigilyph, considering that anything besides a clean switch into CM is lights out for Kung Fu Kitty.

Tl:dr Sigilyph single-handedly demolishes fat cores because they cannot hurt Sigilyph between Magic Guard/CM/ Psycho Shift/ Roost. Considering that fatmons are almost categorically forced out by Sigilyph, and that the forced switches to offensive critters are all risky, I’d call Sigilyph a pretty dangerous customer to deal with.

Edit: Also, Focus Sash Sigilyph is clutch for just being able to do X Y or Z before it dies.
Screen of your choice, Tailwind, random attack? Always* get at least one off. This was more important back when we had a million shell smashers and weather and such, but you get the point.
 

Mr.Bossaru

PMPL Champions 2022' ZU GOD\NU GOAT
is a Top Tiering Contributor
toxtricity.png
but in all real-ness, tox I just to good to be here,

specs tox can kill almost anything unless you have rhy
BAN

pangoro.png
I HATE THIS DUDE, do I even have to explain why
BAN
 
Time for an end of the year (now that I'm reading this over, not so brief) meta analysis.

I personally hate the current meta and there are a few simple reasons why that, at the end of the day, can be easily rectified (although the council has already ruled that there will be no further bans until next year). For starters, teambuilding is just so repetitive. See Luck O' the Irish's post if you want the "intricacies" of building right now. TLDR, building generally revolves around the template of a rocker (Zong/Copper), speed control (usually Scarf Shao), breaker (Goro/Tox/PZ), fighting check (Sylv/Plume), pivot (Milo/Flygon), and filler. This makes building and playing feel like it revolves around a handful of mons, leaving everything else in the dust. Are there other options in building? Sure. Are they the best option for the player that wants to climb 9 times out of 10? Not really. The culprits for this frankly dull meta can be summed up by a few mons:

:Toxtricity:
I'm not normally one to be the I-told-you-so guy, but I TOLD YOU SO! When this was on the slate for the last round of bans, I made reference to the fact that this mon is unwallable with Specs. Now, the reasoning that many of the council gave for not voting to ban Toxitricity makes sense... if Shift Gear is the most common set... which it isn't. The Shift Gear set admittedly does have 2 hard walls in Palossand and Golurk (unless its running Snarl for some reason), but Specs, which has rapidly climbed in popularity, cleanly 2HKOs both (with a Colbur Berry) with Snarl. And don't tell me that Specs is balanced due to the burden of prediction, because if your "counterplay" is to hope to win the prediction game (and lose a mon if you don't), that is not a sign of a healthy mon in the tier. This has lead to a super small number of checks, especially Copperajah and Bronzong, becoming super popular just because they are among the very short list of mons that don't immediately fold to it. But of course, since none of these checks (except the increasingly rare Palossand) have recovery of their own, it requires Sylveon as a partner if you want any chance of withstanding an extended assault. "But wait," you say, "Toxtricity has a meh 75 base speed, and you said yourself that the meta includes speed control." Sure, but none of those faster mons, including the scarfers that revenge kill it, want to switch into Toxtricity, and even if you get your revenge killer positioned, it just switches out. This is where that 75 speed becomes relevant; nothing that outspeeds/priority OKHOs Toxtricity falls under the category of nigh-impossible-to-switch-into, whereas Toxtricity can outspeed the bulky metagame as well as the slower offensive meta, resulting in a lose-lose situation for you. If you switch in a slower, more passive mon, you risk giving Tox a free switch and the only way to position your revenge killer is to sack a mon. Does this sound familiar to you? Because to me, this is eerily similar to why Drampa was banned, except that Toxtricity is even faster relative to the meta and has more defensive utility, being tougher to revenge kill via priority. Just ban it, it's not even worth a suspect test.

:Pangoro:
In other news, this mon is absolutely ludicrous and the other reason Sylveon is so popular. There are a sum total of 3 mons in the tier that can switch into CB Pangoro's STABs, Comfey, Silvally-Fairy, and Sylveon. Disregarding that each and every one of these are OHKOed by Gunk Shot or 2HKOed by Iron Head, they can't even realistically switch into repeated CC's. With proper support from other offensive threats or just having a few hazards down, which isn't exactly an unrealistic proposition, Sylveon (who can't afford to run speed investment) is still unable to switch into the resisted CC and take the follow-up CC. Even if for some reason the Goro user doesn't predict and take out your Fairy type, the amount of utility it provides with STAB Knock Off throughout the game as well as sheer breaking power punching holes in the sturdiest cores the meta has to offer is unmatched. The emergence of Vileplume has helped in the anti-Goro effort, but it has not come close to solving it, as Plume is still 2HKOed by Knock Off. Admittedly, Goro has more checks due to its meager 58 speed stat and at times exploitable typing, but similar to Toxtricity, it outspeeds the bulky metagame and as previously elaborated, it can more than make up for these drawbacks with its power and lack of switch-ins. Hell, if you're crazy enough, there are other options such as SD and Parting Shot. In short, Pangoro warps the meta around it, wit many bulky mons like Milotic EVing to outspeed it, and is overall an unhealthy presence at the moment. Could this change with some meta shifts/drops? Sure, but as of right now, I don't see these changes happening, and until they do, the meta would be a healthier, more diverse environment without Pangoro in it.

Other issues the meta faces include the continued dominance of Mienshao, which RU seriously needs to take this time around, and Porygon-Z, which I think is another mon that may warrant a ban in the future due to its similarly ludicrous amount of breaking power. However, there are plenty of other posts discussing the current state of the meta and opinions on what its problems are. These 2 are simply the biggest issues in my opinion.

If you read this whole post, I'm sorry for how long this ended up being and I hope you have a nice day!
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
i wanna talk about some pokemon, which i do believe are a bit too much for the tier, and to kick it off, lets start with:

:mienshao:
mieanshoa is a big threat in the current metagame as it can run a scarf-set reliably with having the coverage to nail the would be checks - it has stone edge in its arsenal to dent through talonflame, noivern, and sigilyph while other coverage-options such as knock off help it to weaken ghost-type pokemon such as dhelmise (when not itemless) and decidueye, while u-turn lets it switch out of unfavorable matchups, whereas close combat is a great spamable move in the lategame aspect. mienshao also has a great speed tier in conjunction with a great ability in regenerator, which lets it use u-turn very comfortably and to gain some longevity. 125 att rounds mieansho up perfectly as this lets it deal heafty amount of damage to anything. and choice scarf isnt the only set it can run, choice band sets could also be an considerable option, as it strucks alot of the checks with an 2hko or even ohko in the process and mieanshao can afford to run choice band as its incredible speed in 105 lets it outpace a lot of pokemon naturally.
i think mienshao is too much for the tier and should be kept a close eye on.

:pangoro:
this pokemon definitely is a demon in the nu tier, with its incredible ability in scrappy it can hit everything with a choice band-boosted or swords dance-boosted close combat and its power shouldnt be underestimated with an incredible attack base. pangoro has not many checks in ther tier, the only three are sylveon (which has to be bulky to tank hits), comfey, and silvally-fairy, but none of them want to get hit by a iron head or poison jab as they are a clear ohko on comfey even when it is running bulk, a 2hko on bulky sylveon, and a guaranteed 2hko on silvally-fairy, so they cannot switch in safely unless the opponent forces pangoro to lock itself into a knock off or close combat. pangoro clearly is a bit too much for the tier as it checks can get blown away by either iron head or poison jab, and choice band isnt the only set which it can run, swords dance variants also can see reliable usage and the only downside it has is its speed tier, but that is enough with an adamant nature to put it over its bulky check in sylveon. pangoro is a low risk, high reward pokemon which in my opinion just overwhelms the nu tier currently.

252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Comfey: 302-356 (98.6 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 260-308 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Silvally-Fairy: 290-342 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


:toxtricity:
this pokemon is nuts and i think it doesnt take much for it to be an overwhelming presence in nu, boomburst, overdrive, volt switch, and even snarl found their ways on the sets and furthermore its poison-stab still is worth running, while shift gear sets can act on hyper offense teams reliably in the lategame aspect the choice specs sets proves to be a great set in itself. in all honesty i think toxtricity is a pokemon we should definitely be keeping a close eye on as well.

:porygon-z: ya, that pokemon is another presence i want to bring up as with its high special attack base and decent speed and great coverage options in boltbeam, shadow ball, dark pulse, or psychic it can be an insane threat to further its potential it has access to nasty plot to boost its insane coverage and its great spatt. choice specs and choice scarf-sets with trick can also be worth to look into as both sets have merits in the current metagame.

now to pokemon which i feel are really great in the nu tier currently:

:copperajah: this pokemon is really great and proved very quickly that it is one of the best special tanks with an assault vest and it can even use protect sets with leftovers or a set with stealth rocks. the elephant in the room is a great tool currently and is a top tier pokemon in my eyes.
:dhelmise: great typing and great check to ghosts with running an itemless set it can help versus other ghost-types such as golurk to check it. rapid spin is also a great tool alongside poltergeist, power whip, occosionally anchor shot or synthesis with the latter performing well as a supportive spinner.
:bewear: be aware of the great fluffy bear and that isnt a phrase it is the truth, bewear is a crazy good powerful pokemon with its dual-stabs in double-edge and close combat along darkest lariat to hit ghost-pokemon, which can wall the stabs of it.
:sylveon: checks the above mentioned demon in pangoro with a defensive set, has cleric and wish options, to wishpass onto a teammate, mystical fire helps it to dish out damage on steel-types such as bronzong and copperajah, while dealing not a huge chunk of damage with it, it still whittles them down in the long term.
:ninjask: + :escavalier: throughout all the hectic and chaotic shifts these 2 bug-types stayed strong in the tier and are still great options, the former offensively and the latter defensively with great offensive assets. its amazing that both these bugs stayed strong and are still worthy options to run considering that they passed through a lot of chaotic times.
:golisopod: another buggy bug-type, with great tools in first impression, liquidation, and leech life in conjunction with spikes it is a great tool for teams which are absed around to whittle the opposition down with hazard stacking.
:cresselia: great pokemon with great defensive utility with colbur berry, moonlight and moonblast, sub-sets are also really worthy to try out and cresselias presence makes it that a lot of physical threats in the current meta dont roam around as free as they could without cresselia being in the tier. while a lot of peopele in the community deem it as too strong i feel for now cresselia is a needed evil for checking plenty of physical threats.


Thank you for reading and I hope you all will have an amazing day and a great New Years Eve!​
 
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Mariannabelle

chill guy
:Toxtricity: Yes, answering Tox defensively is very specific (outside of Trace P2 and some badmons like Fisk-G, you’ve got hardly anything) but it’s more than just that.

The point I’d like to make here is that for the amount of power it has, it has a combination of traits that make it noticeably less vulnerable than other wallbreakers.

First, in comparison to something like PZ :Porygon-Z: . Tox’s main advantage over PZ lies in defensive utility. Porygon-Z has none to speak of, whereas Toxtricity’s actually-useful Poison-Electric typing allows it to take advantage of very common things like Mienshao, etc.

In addition, for all the switches it can force, it also has access to a pivoting attack in Volt-Switch. Other walbreakers find themselves in an annoying spot if something comes in that they cannot immediately break, but Tox has an easier time of it for being able to threaten the possibility of that move, turning flimsy checks like Copper into fodder. Pangoro has Parting Shot, but that doesn’t directly involve softening up checks for itself. (A lot of Pangoro’s PShot victims don’t hit hard in the first place anyway.)

Also, speed. While not reaching the speed tier that PZ does, Tox still outspeeds most of the slower metagame, like Bewear and such. Something like Pangoro faces stiff resistance to its speed, what with Jolly/Adamant making a difference in many scenarios, many defensive critters being able to creep it, and some common defensive critters can just as easily run an offensive set to catch it, like Sylveon. Even Vileplume could creep adamant Goro if it went fast enough (aside from, you know, just catching it with Moonblast on the switch).

Basically, between a good speed, usable defensive typing, a pivot move, (also Punk Boomburst hits harder than Adaptability Tri-Attack), I think Toxtricity has a combination of factors that put it above comparable wallbreakers.
 

Corthius

diehard hockey fan
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While there are beautiful posts about broken & semi-broken pokemon in this thread, I want to take the time and talk about some 'underdog' pokemon (more or less) I feel are still pretty nice and should not be forgotten. These are in no particular order.

1. The Poltergeist-spammer:
:Golurk::Dhelmise::Decidueye:
Strong physical ghost types like Golurk and Dhelmise (and Decidueye to an lesser extend) have really picked up in usage lately due to their insanely hard to switch into ghost STAB in Poltergeist since we currently lack good ghost resists that also take on their secondary STABs like Power Whip or Earthquake. I think the insanity of Pangoro really holds these pokemons back atm since it outspeeds the two strongest ones and can start with spamming its bonkers Knock Off or Close Combat to revenge them. Don't get me wrong tho, they are still really really good and it is not like Pandoro switches in for free so you at least claimed a kill. I am suggestion to everyone to try out Choice Band Golurk and Choice Band Dhelmise.
Dhelmise @ Choice Band
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Power Whip
- Anchor Shot
- Knock Off
Enough speed for non-speed Porygon2
a sample team: https://pokepast.es/775153a80494f992

Golurk @ Choice Band
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Poltergeist
- Stone Edge
- Shadow Punch
I tend to run Jolly as it allows me to outspeed Pandoro that runs Adamant nature (which most do at least on the ladder)
a sample team: https://pokepast.es/ab8c1671151c13fc

2. Valid counterplay to the Poltergeist-spammer:
:Vileplume::Weezing::Dhelmise:
As you probably have guessed, the best counterplay against Poltergeist is running no item as Poltergeist will fail (PS! description: Fails if the target has no held item.) Now, at first glance, not running an item sounds like automatically putting yourself into a disadvantage. But there are some pokemon in the tier right now that don't necessarily need an item to perform their roll and only get better by also checking threats they would not be able to before. Good examples I want to shoutout in this post are Weezing, Vileplume, Cresselia and funnily enough, Dhelmise again.

- :Weezing:
I have recently build with itemless max defense Weezing to check the mentioned Poltergeist user Dhelmise and Golurk but also making it a solid secondary check to Scrappy Choice Band Pangoro (I had Sylveon too, only Weezing would never be enough) and Choice Scarf Mienshao as running no item in the first place reduces the power of Knock Off to the degree it is only able to do a maximum of 38% from Adamant Choice Band Pangoro (still a lot but like I said I didn't rely on Weezing solely taking onto Pangoro).
With Levitate as the ability and a pure Poison typing, meaning it resists Grass STAB from Dhelmise, Weezing made a great overall physical check to the mentioned pokemon while also being a nice check to Ground types e.g. Flygon and Mudsdale.
I can only recommend trying it out!

- :Vileplume:
While Vileplume itself seems to get more love and is picked more due to its ability to check U-turn spammer like Mienshao quite consitent while also making them think twice about it with your 30% to cripple their pokemon, itemless Vileplume also has it merits over Black Sludge. With no item it is able to check Dhelmise pretty good and (again) only receives weakened damage from Pangoro's Knock Off, allowing it to dodge the 2HKO even after Stealth Rock damage (assuming max max in defense and HP).

Keep in mind that Golurk is free to click its Earthquake tho so it is more of a discourage to click Poltergeist against your team if you face opposing Golurk.

- :Dhelmise:
Dhelmise is an interesting pick as it adds quite the roll compression in Rapid Spin and its defensive utility. It can defensively check opposing CB Dhelmise & Golurk while also provide key resistances against Toxtricity. No item Dhelmise still gets murdered by Pangoro but it can help vs certain other Knock Off user like Golisopod.
If you use Dhelmise as your answer to opposing Poltergeist user, be aware of the possibility that they all have ways around Dhelmise even without using Poltergeist.

3. Wallbreaker that are not utilized enough (imo)
:Centiskorch::Vikavolt::Guzzlord:

Many good pokemon have fallen under the radar due to NU being massive. NU threats like Sigilyph and Vileplume all have fallen down to PU because we couldn't keep up with using everything that was viable (+ the tier is now a whole lot more balanced). Most of these were either great in the past and are forgotten or just overlooked.

- :Centiskorch:
I am a huge fan of Centiskorch right now, as many people either underestimate its power or just don't seem to prep for it at all. Centiskorch has the perfect combination of amazing coverage in Power Whip, brutal STAB (Fire Lash) which boosts its breaking capabilities and utility in either Flame Body or Flash Fire and access to the most spammable move in the game, Knock Off. Heavy-Duty Boots are more than a blessing for Centiskorch and allow it to pivot in even with hazards on the field. The last slot can either be Leech Life to gain some health and hit some Dragon types better or Coil to ease the matchup against certain physical switchins like Flygon.
Use it, you wont be disappointed!

- :Vikavolt:
145 SpA and a STAB combination nothing really wants to take on. That is Vikavolt. I know that it is rather slow and being slower than Pangoro even with Timid max speed is kinda meh but that shouldn't stop anyone from abusing the sheer power this pokemon provides. With Roost in its arsenal it can even come in on Scald from Milotic and other bulky waters. Choice Specs also looks clean but taking Stealth Rock damage is usually not worth it since most walls creep it automatically by creeping Pangoro so I wouldn't want to take unnecessary damage.

- :guzzlord:
The Guzzgoat returns as a really nice defensive fat Dark types that also happens to have access to a 120 BP Heavy Slam against the Fairy types in the tier. Key resistances e.g. Dhelmise' real STAB moves, comming in on defensive waters and Bronzong and just start spamming either strong Dragon or Dark type attacks. Access to Toxic is also really beneficial for making predictions easier against some builds and overall utility.
The best thing tho is probably that it is a really cool secondary Copperajah check since it is so heavy (I wouldn't solely rely on it as it techically could run Play Rough).

I hope you liked the post. If you disagree or want to share your opinion on either the stuff I said or other pokemon you think are overlooked right now but deserve a s/o feel free to add your thoughts to the discussion!
Happy new year!
 
Howdy, everybody! Controversial character and recently converted Duosion advocate Catalisador here to give my few cents on a couple metagame threats and other underexplored critters!

:ss/Copperajah:

I believe Copperajah is starting to show signs of slight unhealthiness, in my eyes, maybe as a result of the metagame itself. Immense 122/69/69 bulk and extraordinary defensive Steel-type gives the elephant huge survivability, being able to repeatedly come in on heavy-hitting pokémon such as even Choice Specs Toxtricity. Furthermore, 130 base Attack and perfect coverage to hit the entire tier for unresisted damage is ridiculous. Copperajah invalidates nearly all other Steel-type options and has limited defensive counterplay for a, mainly, defensive pokemon.

:ss/Vileplume:

Extreme defensive utility in moves such as Corrosive Gas, Stun Spore and Strength Sap coupled with amazing defensive Grass/Poison typing and solid 75/85/95 mixed bulk quickly solidified this flower as a top-tier defensive pick in the current SS NU. Moreover, Effect Spore RNG is extremely annoying to deal with sometimes, specially for the likes of Mienshao and Pangoro (which, yes, is checked by Vileplume! Crazy little pokemon...).

:ss/Weezing:

Although it faces competition from Vileplume as a Poison-type defensive pokemon, Weezing is still a great pick in the current SS NU metagame. Access to Levitate or Neutralizing Gas lets it pick which pokemon it desires to check (Golurk, Mienshao, Tyrantrum, etc). Furthermore Fire-tye coverage and access to Toxic Spikes makes it a neat little pick over Vileplume.

:ss/Duosion:

Access to Future Sight, potential to run Regenerator or Magic Guard, ways to beat fat walls 1v1 (specially Vileplume) and strong 125 base Special Attack makes Duosion a neat little niche pokemon. Coupled with a strong, Fighting-type such as Pangoro, it tries to replicate the hole Slowbro-Galar left when it took a trip to NUBL. It is definitely a fun pokemon and I encourage more people to try it out!

Duosion @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 36 SpA / 136 SpD / 84 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight
- Psyshock
- Recover
- Shadow Ball

Enough Speed for Gastrodon and uninvested base 40s, enough Special Defense to live Toxtricity's Boomburst after Stealth Rock.

:ss/pangoro: :ss/mienshao: :ss/bewear:

All of these little gutsy critters are unhealthy somehow, in my opinion. To sum it up, Pangoro has quite literally no defensive counterplay, Bewear possesses extreme breaking prowess and defensive utility and Mienshao has become an overcentralizing force due to its raw consistency, in my opinion.

:ss/toxtricity:

This ?salamander? also lacks solid defensive counterplay outside shaky 50/50s. It also has some defensive utility thanks to its typing and ability, differently from something like Porygon-Z.

:ss/Porygon-Z:

Also lacks clear defensive counterplay, although frailty and lack of speed and defensive utility put it somewhat in check.

:ss/Comfey:

Last but not least, I wanna talk about Comfey. Amazing defensive utility in Fairy-typing, U-Turn, priority recovery and STAB as well as Defog makes it a premier defensive glue right now, in my opinion. Offensive sets are also always fun (although extremely inconsistent and 100% walled by any Steel-type - even Galarian Meowth, I speak from experience...).

That's all, folks! :psywoke:
 
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I have a question, is choiceband mediocre on copperajah or not. Because I rarely seen it on copper, and with that movepool and ability, it can just break about anything
 

Finchinator

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I have a question, is choiceband mediocre on copperajah or not. Because I rarely seen it on copper, and with that movepool and ability, it can just break about anything
The movepool allows for it to work better without a Choice Band. With Heavy Slam + Heat Crash and other options like Earthquake, Power Whip, and so on, having to lock into a single move is not best. Being able to make the most of coverage options and pose a threat consistently suits Copperajah better.
 

Finchinator

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Milotic will be missed the most by me; it was a fantastic defensive pivot that was able to compress a number of defensive roles together. Porygon2 functioned similarly, but one could argue that its best days were behind it as the metagame grew a bit too hectic for its liking. Finally, Noivern was a strong Pokemon in its time in the tier, but I feel like people mainly slapped it on as a fast pivot that resisted a few important typings and did not think much else of it, relegating it to being a conventionally strong option that did not exactly define the metagame much like it has in prior generations of RU/UU.

As for the drops, Drapion will be fun! You can never have enough Poison types in a metagame, but getting another Dark is perhaps even more valuable due to how threatening Ghost types can be. I worry that offensive sets may struggle to break through more durable Ground types and other physical walls, but there are still utility options as well as the potential for Choice Band. Not having Pursuit can be a limiting factor for sure, but that's about all it has lost and it has been a good lower tier option over generations for a variety of other reasons. As for Torkoal, keep in mind that Drought is banned, so it will unfortunately be sliding to PU if I had to guess.
 
Farewell

:ss/porygon2: Going to miss Porygon2! There was a time that P2's defensive capabilities are what held the tier together, although by late December things had changed enough that it was not the nearly-mandatory option it used to be. Still I will certainly miss its defensive pivoting capabilities, as P2 really shined as one of the best teleport users available to us.

:ss/milotic: Milotic will certainly be missed - to echo what Finchinator said it really excelled at compressing defensive roles and was a supreme choice for a bulky water that could fit onto many builds. That being said I'm glad to not have to face the thing anymore :blobstop:.

:ss/Noivern: Noivern was an interesting and effective option as a speed control/cleaner and fast pivot and but I feel like it never really got to excel in the meta the same way it seemed to in higher tier metas, and in addition Tornadus seemed to compete for a slot as a fast offensive flying due to the way the meta took shape early on in the month. Noivern's effectiveness as a speed control and fast pivot was diminished by the popularity of mons like Comfey and choice scarf Flygon so I don't think it will be a hugely impactful loss.



Greetings!

:ss/Drapion: Drapion is an exciting mon with a great typing and unlike its type-brother Skuntank, Drapion looks like can have a good time in the current meta, being able to set up on and threaten big walls like Bronzong and Cresselia. Drapion has enough bulk to tank a hit from fast offenders like Mienshao, as well as pose danger to Celebi and non-scarfed Mowtom. Drapion does appear to lack a powerful and reliable stab other than knock and would have loved to have Gunk Shot, however I can still see this mon being plenty useful right now.

:ss/Torkoal: Without drought, this sad turtle is gonna be left behind in the race as it simply isn't as useful as Arcanine or Talonflame as a defensive fire. Off to PU with ya.

:ss/Golurk: :ss/Sigilyph: :ss/vileplume: These three are coming back up from PU and with no surprise based on their success in NU - they all excel at what they do and are certainly going to be mons to watch out for as always!
 
Porygon2 being gone mean Toxtricity has no real counterplay in the tier.. The only big wall was trace P2 but now Toxtricity gonna be more bonkers broken (wich i like)
Also question to the council: When quick ban start again? Mons like Pangoro, Mienshao, Toxtricity (pls no) and PZ need to be BL Knights.... Please!!!
 
Porygon2 being gone mean Toxtricity has no real counterplay in the tier.. The only big wall was trace P2 but now Toxtricity gonna be more bonkers broken (wich i like)
Also question to the council: When quick ban start again? Mons like Pangoro, Mienshao, Toxtricity (pls no) and PZ need to be BL Knights.... Please!!!
Now that u said it, toxtricity now is at least suspect worth it. Specs is the best set and has no counterplay. With webs and modest nature it just a living monster than even pallosand can handle if running snarl
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
:drapion:
I feel like this mon can be a great physical wallbreaker in the tier with poison/dark as dual-typing and its decent speed tier which enables it to threaten the slower wallbreaker in the tier it definitely is a pokemon worth to look further into; not only has it a great set in Swords Dance, but I feel it has a lot more going for it than just this. Choice Scarf Sets can also work out. Sadly it lost Pursuit in Gen8 so it lost one of its best tools on a choiced set, but its Earthquake coverage is really great with breaking through Arcanine, Diancie, and Copperajah.

Drapion @ Black Sludge / @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab

- Earthquake

furthermore thanks to its Poison-typing Drapion doesn't fall under the Dark-types which is checked by Sylveon, Comfey, and Silvally-Fairy well. So I feel this Pokemon has a lot going for it.

ByeBye: :porygon2: :milotic: and :noivern:

I Feel Porygon2 and Milotic where great additions to NU as they have checked plenty of Pokemon, especially Porygon2 has checked with Trace Punk Rock the ever dangerous special breaker Toxtricity and Milotic checked Arcanine, Golisopod, and plenty of other top threats due to its amazing Water-typing, its great bulk and longevity in recovery. Noivern leaving is also sad since it was one hell of a addition to NU, fast, great typing and really great tools. We will miss you!

Welcome aboard: :golurk: :vileplume: and :sigilyph:

It was only a matter of time that these 3 will rise as they have a lot to offer: Golurk is a primary spammer of hard hitting Poltergeists and I think that itemless Pokemon will rise due to the increased usage of Golurk. Vileplume can check Fighting-types such as Mienshao pretty well, which is very appreciated considering the fact that Mieanshao can be really pressuring. Sigilyph does well Sigilyph things, it's really good and has a nice speed tier alongside a great valuable immunity in Ground-type attacks.

:torkoal: ya no, with Drought banned it'll see no usage at all, so down it goes to PU unless RU has a time for Sun again.
 
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I think drapion is the check that the tier needed for cress, because if you dont run choiceband escavalier, you are Ko this thing
 
Now that u said it, toxtricity now is at least suspect worth it. Specs is the best set and has no counterplay. With webs and modest nature it just a living monster than even pallosand can handle if running snarl
There is no reason for a suspect the mon is outright broken i feel there has to be another quickban slate before any suspect action is taken
 

EonX

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Man, I'm gonna miss Milotic and P2. I was saying all month that Milotic was on borrowed time here as the only reason it fell in the first place as because Slowking was THE bulky Water pivot and once it left, Milotic was solid again. Porygon2 I feel was still pretty solid here as it was THE Toxtricity check, but with Trick Room being a legit playstyle in RU, it's no surprise to see it leave. So, what's here to replace them? I don't think anything outright replaces Porygon2 as its main use was to handle Toxtricity and pivot into most special attackers to spare your main answer to them when necessary. However, there's a couple of options for Milotic:



If keeping a Water-type pivot is your first goal, then these two are your best bets. While Blastoise has more intial bulk and access to Rapid Spin, I think Vaporeon's semi-reliable recovery will make it more consistent as a defensive Pokemon. Granted, 2-turn recovery moves can leave you wide open and running Flip Turn on Vaporeon means you lose all ability to pressure opposing bulky Waters, run Heal Bell for cleric dutie, Haze to emergency check setup sweepers, etc. Blastoise on the other hand sacrifices reliable recovery for hazard removing potential, and the ability to still run Toxic or Haze as it doesn't have 2 moveslots taken up for a recovery option. Neither is nearly as good as Milotic was as they have clear flaws, but they're still likely the next best Flip Turn bulky Waters if you wanted to keep that on your Milotic teams.


This is probably the most defensively sound bulky Water now with Milotic's departure. It's much better at hazard removal than Blastoise was, also passively benefits from Noivern's departure as a more passive bulky Water, and has reliable recovery. This is what I expect will ultimately replace Milotic on most teams as outside of Flip Turn momentum, it has most other tools Milotic had.


While more offensive in nature, Starmie also benefits quite a bit from these shifts. Milotic had a pretty easy time pivoting into it and Noivern was a fast pivot that could outspeed and threaten with a powerful STAB move. With Analytic and great coverage, Starmie should be a lot better now as it loses a natural revenge killer (Noivern) and 2 defensive checks (Milotic and Porygon2) though it will still have some decisions to make with coverage. Oh, and it can even Flip Turn if you're into that.

I've mentioned it a couple of times in passing, but I don't really see anything filling Noivern's typical role on teams. Its great Speed tier, good enough Special Attack, support moves, and solid 2-move combination between STAB + Flamethrower made it a really flexible fit on most teams that was quietly a low drawback pick. Not flashy, not the best, but definitely one of the safest as it would do multiple jobs game in and game out.
 
Man, I'm gonna miss Milotic and P2. I was saying all month that Milotic was on borrowed time here as the only reason it fell in the first place as because Slowking was THE bulky Water pivot and once it left, Milotic was solid again. Porygon2 I feel was still pretty solid here as it was THE Toxtricity check, but with Trick Room being a legit playstyle in RU, it's no surprise to see it leave. So, what's here to replace them? I don't think anything outright replaces Porygon2 as its main use was to handle Toxtricity and pivot into most special attackers to spare your main answer to them when necessary. However, there's a couple of options for Milotic:



If keeping a Water-type pivot is your first goal, then these two are your best bets. While Blastoise has more intial bulk and access to Rapid Spin, I think Vaporeon's semi-reliable recovery will make it more consistent as a defensive Pokemon. Granted, 2-turn recovery moves can leave you wide open and running Flip Turn on Vaporeon means you lose all ability to pressure opposing bulky Waters, run Heal Bell for cleric dutie, Haze to emergency check setup sweepers, etc. Blastoise on the other hand sacrifices reliable recovery for hazard removing potential, and the ability to still run Toxic or Haze as it doesn't have 2 moveslots taken up for a recovery option. Neither is nearly as good as Milotic was as they have clear flaws, but they're still likely the next best Flip Turn bulky Waters if you wanted to keep that on your Milotic teams.


This is probably the most defensively sound bulky Water now with Milotic's departure. It's much better at hazard removal than Blastoise was, also passively benefits from Noivern's departure as a more passive bulky Water, and has reliable recovery. This is what I expect will ultimately replace Milotic on most teams as outside of Flip Turn momentum, it has most other tools Milotic had.


While more offensive in nature, Starmie also benefits quite a bit from these shifts. Milotic had a pretty easy time pivoting into it and Noivern was a fast pivot that could outspeed and threaten with a powerful STAB move. With Analytic and great coverage, Starmie should be a lot better now as it loses a natural revenge killer (Noivern) and 2 defensive checks (Milotic and Porygon2) though it will still have some decisions to make with coverage. Oh, and it can even Flip Turn if you're into that.

I've mentioned it a couple of times in passing, but I don't really see anything filling Noivern's typical role on teams. Its great Speed tier, good enough Special Attack, support moves, and solid 2-move combination between STAB + Flamethrower made it a really flexible fit on most teams that was quietly a low drawback pick. Not flashy, not the best, but definitely one of the safest as it would do multiple jobs game in and game out.
I like blastoise for web team because it can remove hazards without losing yours and having access to yawn and flip turn is very useful with the se broken breakers
 
Blastoise also could use Life Dew as recovery. Isnt strong (25%) but with experience in RU with Zarude Jungle Healing, this litle recovery can be so good some time..
The problem is 4mss: you want Scald, Flip Turn, Toxic, Rapid Spin, Life Dew, Haze and Ice Beam for diferent reason wich make picking the right moves could be a bitch some times
 

etern

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Quick update to let everyone know that the NU Council are currently voting on :toxtricity: Toxtricity and :porygon-z: Porygon-Z, you can expect the results to be revealed within 24 hours! Following that vote, we'll be moving into our first 'Suspect Test' of the generation!!!
 

EonX

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- I love this thing a lot, but I don't expect it to survive this vote. Toxtricity is essentially Exploud, but with a switch move and mild defensive utility. Conventional Electric type checks do not work on this thing and you have to treat it sort of like Exploud... only that Steels and Rocks can't handle Overdrive for the most part. Throw in Snarl on the off chance you run into something like Palossand and Golurk, and it's almost impossible to defensively counter / check. If you don't have something to force it to Snarl, it's not easy to take advantage of either as Overdrive and Boomburst hit incredibly hard (Boomburst is as strong as Exploud's for context) It also outspeeds Pangoro (another very powerful wallbreaker) handles Flame Orb variants of Sigilyph, and can take complete advantage of passive defensive Pokemon like Sylveon and Mantine to force KOes or uncomfortable situations for the opposition. And it isn't like Shift Gear is exactly a bad set. It's just inherently worse than Choice Specs because of how easy Specs is to use generally.

- While I wouldn't be surprised to see this go, I definitely feel it's not as bad as Toxtricity. Porygon-Z, aside from a Poltergeist immunity, offers no defensive utility at all. While this obviously doesn't mean it isn't broken, it does create problems for it switching in most games. However, once it finds a way in, you're dead to rights if you don't have something like Copperajah or Gigalith as Bronzong isn't' reliable due to its Dark Pulse / Shadow Ball weakness. Specs hits like a mac truck, Scarf has unusually high power for the immediate Speed it possesses, and it can always utilize a Double Dance set (particularly on Screens HO) as Tri Attack + Dark Pulse is generally all it needs in terms of coverage. This one is closer than Toxtricity, but I feel the versatility, different counterplay routes required based on the set (aside from Copper and Gigalith) is enough to warrant it leaving in spite of the slight difficulty one can have bringing it in.
 

MrAldo

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Toxtricity and Porygon-Z together in the tier reduce practical counterplay to pretty much nothing cause realistically you could use them in the same team with an array of different combinations, you chose the flavor of your sets with these 2. Shift Gear Toxt with Specs PZ, or Specs Toxt with agility/double dance PZ. Really dangerous duo that can honestly do a ton of damage by just clicking moves.

I think ideally both of them need to go, they are just so similar to the same ridiculous amount of pressure they put on preview or on the builder, pz may not enjoy the dual typing but it has nasty plot and coverage of a normal type and toxtricity... just needs 3 moves to break extremely efficiently, you always risk losing your check cause you got what move it will use wrong. Maybe PZ can stay with the toxtricity gone, but Im not seeing it since they are just so similar. I just cant see these 2 staying as a good outcome by forcing only the sturdiest normal resists on the special side, everything else gets 3hkod... yeah.
 
For me toxtricity is more broken one and should leave the tier, why well firts of all offensibly is imposible to wall now that p2 is gone. Defensibly that typing is excellent, because that 4 times weakness to ground is not a big issue, cause this is not supposed to takes those attack anyway, so having 8 resistances is nice to abuse king tier mienshao and the fairies but also the grasses, (webs makes this mom even nastier) . In conclusion I dont see this mom staying here.

Porygon-Z, a big diference between this mom and toxtricity is its defensive utility but this mom has a higher speed tier, more spe attack, better converage and nasty plot. Honestly I have only tried choice sets but they are good enough to prove that pz is quite broken for the tier I dont see banning this mom an issue really.
Hopefully the council shares similar opinions and start suspects after this round of votes with pokemon like pangoro and copperajah but sorry if got out of the topic at the end
 
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