Metagame NP: NU Stage 5.1 - Kung Fu Fighting [Bewear & Pangoro Banned]

[shiloh]

As stated in the previous Metagame discussion threads, NU is at the point where we believe that Public Suspect tests are the way to go, and as such we are at the 2nd one of this stage. Our previous one saw Sigilyph getting tested and subsequently banned, and now we are moving onto a double suspect test of Bewear and Pangoro.

First things first, we'll address why we decided on having a double suspect test when these usually are just public tests for one mon. The main reason is that I believe these two are similar enough, will not affect each others viability to the point that it will skew the results of the test. These two have also been identified as the two most problematic mons in the tier, and as such would both eventually get tested. While time is not the biggest reason, we just saw little downside when weighing the pros and cons of running the test at the same time. We also acknowledge that if Bewear is suspected and subsequently banned, Pangoro would be close after due to the roles they both play, as well as how Bewear can act as a soft check to Pangoro. This is more of an experiment for the modern generation, since the last time there was a double test in NU was back during ORAS with Gurdurr and Mega-Camerupt, so based on how people feel after this test it could be something we look into more in the future, though we always would prefer single tests.


The reasons why Bewear is being suspected is obvious to most people that have played the tier in the past couple months. Bewear has several attributes that make it one of the best offensive mons in the tier, as well as being a glue for a lot of offensive teams due to its defensive capabilities as well. Starting with its offensive capabilities, it gained a couple new tools in SS that give it a leg up. While last generation it did have Z-Moves to supplement its offensive sets, the loss of them have not hindered it as it has gained a few couple new tools. These are mainly in access to Close Combat and Darkest Lariat, which give it a much more spammable Fighting STAB instead of having to rely on Superpower/Drain Punch and Darkest Lariat being much better than Shadow Claw to hit Dark types with. The loss of Return has hurt it as well, but Double-Edge is a more than powerful enough alternative.

Continuing on with its offensive capabilities, it possesses two very powerful sets that are able to fit on a wide variety of teams, and while they are fairly predictable, that does not change the damage it is able to do. Swords Dance sets are the more overwhelming set, and make use of Bewears phenomenal ability in Fluffy to find set up opportunities. With great coverage in Double-Edge / Close Combat / Darkest Lariat, if it manages to get a boost on weaker Physical attackers like Copperajah/Drapion/Mudsdale etc. Once it gets that boost it is almost guaranteed a kill, and can use items like Chople / Lum to find even more set up opportunities. This set does have some downsides in the fact that before the Swords Dance boost it can be easy to switch into, and that it is still easily revenge killed by quite a few special attackers in the tier. The issue of its lack of straight power without a boost is alleviated by its Choice Band set, the only other set that has really seen any viable use so far. This set trades its ability to boost for more immediate power, though it does give up quite a bit to do that. Since both of its STABs have immunities, it becomes a lot easier to play around if you have a Ghost Type, since it is forced to predict around it with Darkest Lariat. Due to fluffy it finds its way onto more offensive teams as a way to check physical attackers, since it can eat hits from most Contact moves and threaten a KO back with or without a Choice Band. This ability to 1v1 most Physical Attackers is what makes the Choice Band set so deadly, as well as the ability to just 2HKO would be walls like Vileplume.

The main negatives to Bewear can be seen in its lower Special Defense, as well as a typing that is not the best when it comes to facing down these Special Attackers. It also has a fairly low Base Speed for an offensive mon, meaning that it has to invest almost fully in Speed to take advantage of Defensive Walls, but it also lets it get outcrept by defensive mons like Cresselia. Fluffy also does have the downside of giving it an additional Fire Type Weakness, which can make the matchup against fire types like Talonflame/Arcanine that much harder. While there is no question it is an amazing offensive mon, these qualities are the reason that we are having a test instead of just banning it, and do warrant further discussion.


The reasons Pangoro are being suspected are honestly very similar to the reasons Bewear is being tested, with the main difference being their Abilities/Secondary Typings. Like Bewear, Pangoro gained access to Close Combat this generation, giving it a much more spammable Fighting Type move that can find its way onto just about every Pangoro set. It also appreciates SS removing Z-Moves and Mega Stones, as it can spam Knock Off much more freely during games now, as it will almost always be at full power. It also has three great abilities, one of which has been buffed since SS in Scrappy. Scrappy now instead of just allowing Normal and Fighting Type moves to hit Ghost types, also grants the user immunity to Intimidate; which helps Pangoro out with the recent rise of Arcanine.

Pangoro's main set is its Choice Band set that has a lot of key attributes that make it much more easier for it to spam moves compared to other choiced users in the tier. As said before, Knock Off has become a lot more spammable this generation compared to others due to the fact that there is nothing immune to losing its item, aside from itemless mons of course. This lets it remove recovery items from a lot of its best defensive checks, like Vileplume, Sylveon, and Mudsdale, among others. It also has a great ability in Scrappy, which lets it spam Close Combat without having to worry about Ghost types trying to switch in after it has revealed its Choice lock. This makes counterplay to it that much harder. It also has access to great coverage in Gunk Shot, and a priority move in Bullet Punch that allow it to hit Fairy types, and even pick off some faster mons like Mienshao. Swords Dance sets exist as well, which can be fairly teched out and just make it that much more of a headache to deal with. With another good ability in Iron Fist, Pangoro can make use of a boosted Bullet Punch, which after a Life Orb and some hazard damage can even prevent faster revenge killers like Mienshao from coming in after a Swords Dance. It can also make use of resist berries like Chople, and even has access to recovery with the Iron Fist boosted Drain Punch seeing some use.

Pangoro also does have its weaknesses, and like its strengths a lot are similar to Bewear. Its speed tier leaves a lot to be desired, and while it does have priority in Bullet Punch, that does not help vs faster mons that can take a hit like Flygon, Bewear, and even Cresselia that outspeeds and kills with Moonblast. While its typing does have some upsides, mainly an immunity to Psychic, it does come with a 4x weakness to Fairy, It's bulk leaves a lot to be desired as well, and it has no real way to alleviate this as it cannot usually afford to lose any of its investment into attack or speed, leaving it vulnerable to faster revenge killers.

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice. **It is now 79 compared to 80 from the last test**​

minimum games needed

GXE​	minimum games​
79​	50​
79.2​	49​
79.4​	48​
79.6​	47​
79.8​	46​
80​	45​
80.2​	44​
80.4​	43​
80.6​	42​
80.8​	41​
81​	40​
81.2​	39​
81.4​	38​
81.6​	37​
81.8​	36​
82​	35​
82.2​	34​
82.4​	33​
82.6​	32​
82.8​	31​
83​	30​

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NUPB. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NUPB rozes.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.​
• We will be using the regular NU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.​
• The aspects being tested, Bewear & Pangoro, will be allowed on the ladder.​
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.​
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.​
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until February 11th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.​

 

[Finchinator]

Bewear has been broken since a little after its release, in my opinion. There are a couple of sets, but there is only one worth discussing here. The Swords Dance set only really has Cresselia as a truly reliable answer I feel. Physical bulk allows for a great deal of opportunities and the dual STAB + Darkest Lariat is pretty much unwallable.

Combining this superb physical bulk -- thanks Fluffy, which allows it to set-up without encountering any trouble, with equally strong physical strength makes this Bewearas good as it is. Very few Pokemon can keep it in check with the combination of Double Edge + Close Combat + Darkest Lariat. If it is running Choice Band, which is less-and-less common by the day, then you can perhaps predict around it, but Swords Dance sets are able to hit everything without having to lock-in. Considering how strong Bewear is (125 attack), it seems clear why this is problematic.

Faster special attackers can revenge kill it, which we have no shortage of at least, and Cresselia can stomach enough attacks to make it a good immediate response, but many teams are deprived of true switch-ins if they lack Cresselia. I do not believe that the metagame should have to accept being this restricted due to Bewear's presence. I believe that it is broken and will be voting ban.

I am not entirely decided on Pangoro yet, but I am leaning ban. When I make up my mind and get reqs, I will try to post again on it.

 

[Arcobaleno]

I think that bewear is too much for NU tier. But i'm not convinced that cress is the only reliable answer. In the other hand, arcanine with only a few speed invest can check bewear, and cripple it with WoW, or do massive damages with flamethrower. It's also not so hard to rk bewear, because of its mediocre speed and low special bulk, allowing common pivots or faster mons to break it, such as rotom-mow, goodra or salazzle. However, bewear has the ability too destroy defensive cores if you haven't a solid check, which means that it restricts teambuilding way too much. (Don't forget that ban bewear means Ttrum would probably click X with head smash)

Pangoro is Bewear’s dark version with less bulk and more checks. I think we can compare pangoro to mienshao, as they have a similary movepool. Both of them are crippled or strongly checked by vileplume and sylveon, both of them do massive damages, but i think mienshao is stronger by far thanks to its great speed, fantastic ability, variety of sets and ability to get momentum with u-turn. Also Sirfetch'd is a rude competitor to pangoro, as it is able to outspeed bewear and break vileplume with brave bird. tl;dr I can say without a doubt that pangoro isn’t broken as of now, but I think mienshao deserved a spot over Pangoro as a broken threat. Fighting spam is so broken but Pangoro isn’t even a premier option in those archetypes, whereas mienshao is alongside bewear. I think the main threat that should be banned, because it forces to run slow fighting check as vileplume or sylveon (which are destroyed by bewear) and it's the reason why fighting spam are so broken is MIENSHAO.

 

[Science The Voices]

I believe Bewear isn't really healthy for our tier. The fact that it can set up on pretty much any physical attacker, given that NU lacks good fire types, makes it even harder to handle. I've seen it taking CC from scarfed Shao, when supported with chopple berry. I would surely vote ban.

As for Pangoro, I don't really feel like it's broken. Sure, banded Knock Off hurts like hell, but I believe that metagame adapted to it. Things like itemless Vileplume do the job in stopping Pangoro. We also have few fairy types that can stop Goro. Obviously it gets all the coverage it needs to hit fairies, but it's all a prediction game. One bad decision and you are losing momentum. I'd vote no ban.

 

[Lennart]

I believe Bewear isn't really healthy for our tier. The fact that it can set up on pretty much any physical attacker, given that NU lacks good fire types, makes it even harder to handle. I've seen it taking CC from scarfed Shao, when supported with chopple berry. I would surely vote ban.

As for Pangoro, I don't really feel like it's broken. Sure, banded Knock Off hurts like hell, but I believe that metagame adapted to it. Things like itemless Vileplume do the job in stopping Pangoro. We also have few fairy types that can stop Goro. Obviously it gets all the coverage it needs to hit fairies, but it's all a prediction game. One bad decision and you are losing momentum. I'd vote no ban.

I think the fact that you run itemless Vileplume to have a better switch in to one mon particularly (sure poltergeist too but Golurks eq 2hkoes anyway and other Knock user like Mienshao would not break it with an item regardless) is a bit telling. It does not appear to be as outright banworthy as Bewear but (and to be honest, I am undecided personally) Vileplume is a bit of a forced answer, considering CB Gunk still gets the 2hko (If I recall correctly, it could even adapt and run fringe-viable Zen Headbutt from it's movepool or an elemental punch) and it Ohkoes every notable fairy, especially considering rocks. While some may argue, Bewear does avoid getting revenge by it's incredible physical bulk, even enabling it to avoid being revenged by Mienshao's close combat by quite a margin, one has to consider that CB Panda is not it's only set. I have seen some people messing around with SD Panda, which can break immediately but also clean later on in the game - this set could afford bullet punch while replacing Gunk with SD, as Iron Fist Lorb-Boosted BP does enough to the most common fairies anyway, notably 2hkoing sylveon after the chip from one prior knock off + rocks + the item loss or some other minimal chip. In combination with Spikes, it is also able to immediately take out Mienshao after a Swords Dance Boost with a little roll:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Pangoro Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 218-257 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Admittedly it's tougher to get to set up, compared to Bewear which boasts incredible defense with it's Fluffy Ability but with Pokemon like Bronzong it certainly is possible. Additionally, it can come in with some offensive plays, doubling in on an important Wall, scaring it out and getting the +2 and let's not forget that the Panda is not too frail either.
I agree that it also has not got Mienshao's Regenerator but Scrappy and Iron Fist are very useful themselves, reducing it's defensive counterplay to non and making teambuilding very restrictive when trying to find proper answers against it. Scrappy makes it basically impossible for Arcanine to compress a Bewear and Pangoro check (would have been tough enough anyway, with knock off in Pangoro's arsenal) and ignoring intimidate and making CC more spammable against Ghost Types - Ghost Types may not be as prevalent but it hinders the possibility for some very fringe answers, like itemless sab from the get go and scaring off any ghost type which saw increased usage as a Bewear check, while Iron Fist is very straightforward in boosting BP as a priority move and strengthening drain punch. The additional Power on Drain Punch can be decently helpful on SD, enabling it to possibly choose Drain Punch over CC, so it does not need to drop it's defenses resulting in quicker revenge killing action from the likes of flygon, mienshao, rotom, etc. and healing it up again, facilitating this effect further. Heck, even Mold Breaker could be used to EQ Levitate Itemless Weezing or (if it would be SD) to more easily Stall (which appears rather irrelevant right now) and guaranteed smack Unaware Pyukumuku or, regarding the Momentum that Mienshao for instance has and fringe options, it could elect to run parting shot to ease prediction against vileplume. Pangoro is, in my opinion, a bit more of a pokemon which exudes immediate pressure while bewear is a bit less of an immediate threat in a way (often deciding to pick mon by mon) , which directly breaks but more of a pokemon that threatens with it's toughness and the ability to get SDs easily (often waiting a bit more patiently but then for a chance to blast through) and then knock out everything which is slower or tank hits from most common, faster pokemon and then revenging them after, plus recovering health from drain punch in many cases. They do similar, yet slightly different things and I agree with most that Bewear is a bit more dangerous comparatively but I am not sure if I agree with some Pangoro sentiments, especially if I picture the meta after only bewear gets banned (and yes, some may say lets wait then and see if it really happens), I could very well seem Pangoro being one of the Issues upcoming next. Both are very restrictive for teambuilding (especially in combination, that is something I at least would like to get rid off) and have little counterplay but regarding theoretical counterplay, not common counterplay or "usable" counterplay, I would say that pangoro has 0 in current NU, while Bewear has at least some options (especially some theoretical ones, which are less viable but could answer it. Obviously still not the healthiest for a metagame if you have to force yourself to use some super goofy pokemon just for one threat but it illustrates a point). Pangoro is revengable but it forces certain playstyles, as it could just force a kill when it gets in and the meta is not particularly friendly towards fast sweepers, aside from scarfers, so pangoro will usually find itself a chance to get in and wreck havoc and as it's spdef is superior to bewears, it can actually survive hits from the likes of scarf rotom and salazzle decently well, contrary to bewear. Maybe my perspective is a bit different because I recently had to built a few NU Teams for a certain Tournament (which - lets be honest - three quarters of them will soon be useless anyway. Yes, I am looking at your teams with cress, bewear, etc.) but currently I would certainly vote ban on bewear and leaning towards ban on pangoro as well

 

[Lennart]

POV: You fight against Bewear at +2 and Scarf Shao is the only option to revenge kill it

 

[Sjneider]

Going to give my thoughts on the bears as well.

Bewear's superb defensive bulk in combination with Fluffy makes it extremely hard to revenge kill not to mention the fact that Bewear's item slot is very flexible. Unlike its fellow suspected bear Pangoro, who I believe needs a Choice Band to really be effective, Bewear wielders can pick and choose from multiple resist berries, lum, choiced items and so on to suit their desired needs.

The state of the current metagame does not do Bewear any favors (as in I find it hard to not vote ban on Bewear) because it is currently dominated by strong physical attackers like Mienshao, Copperajah, and our very own suspects. Many special attackers such as Inteleon and Articuno-Galar have completely fallen out of flavor and rightfully so thanks to the great Spd walls the tier has to offer (e.g. Mantine, Bronzong, Spd Jah, Sylveon). This gives Bewear free reign to stomp on the tier and constricts teambuilding to an overwhelming degree. Voting ban on Bewear

Pangoro, on the other hand, is a completely different story. Its going to be CB 90% of the time, with the 10% being scarf/lum/LO but I think CB is the far far far superior option anyways. This makes it much easier to gameplan vs the panda compared to Bewear. It's doing the same thing it has always done which is get off strong Knock Offs and CCs. There are many many ways beyond Itemless Vileplume that I've seen the meta evolve to adapt to Pangoro. I do think though that with the addition of Scrappy (can't go Ghosts on scouted CC, immune to arc intimidate), Pangoro is probably at its peak but its extremely mediocre bulk and speed still keeps it in check and makes it a much weaker option in practice than it may seem on paper. Panda= Not banworthy

 

[carbonlifeform]

This will be my first time pursuing reqs for a suspect. Both of these 'mons are certainly restrictive in the builder. Even if neither is fast enough to serve as a true wincon, they're both likely to make you play the sac game at some point and put you behind as a result. Pangoro's few counters are more consistent, but they're also more limited in variety (fairies and, apparently, item-less Vileplume), which then forces you to account for *them* as well. That said, any meta is going to be shaped by its top threats, and I'm not 100% sold that these guys are so unworkable as to be ban-worthy, so I'm excited to read the arguments on both sides.

Tangentially related to the suspect test, I've been running Bulky Flygon as a defogger/defensive pivot since Flygon was in UU, and I've actually found the following variation to be super useful lately:
Bulky DD Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 236 HP / 236 Def / 36 Spe
Dragon Dance
Roost
Earthquake
U-Turn

Speed EVs let you out-speed everything up-to-and-including Salazzle after one DD. HP and Def are optimized to maximize HP while ensuring you survive two CCs from Scarf Mienshao. U-turn is weird on a booster, but you really want Roost to capitalize on your surprising bulk and Dragon Claw really only helps with the mirror-matchup, while U-Turn lets you chip to whatever check gets sent in and lets you act as either a slow or fast pivot depending on whether you've boosted.

In any case, I'm sharing specifically because this Flygon has worked really well as an extra layer of support against the three fighters that have the tier in their vice-grip.

Against all variants of Mienshao, you can DD on turn one and kill with EQ on turn two if they clicked CC to start:

'Shao Calcs

252 Atk Mienshao Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 160-190 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mienshao Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 241-285 (66.9 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 208-247 (57.7 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Mienshao: 364-430 (134.3 - 158.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If they clicked anything other than CC, you can choose between EQ/Roost/DD as your next move depending on what set was revealed (or what they U-turned into)

Against Pangoro, you actually don't want to boost: Click EQ turn one. If they locked into CC, the second EQ will kill with anything better than two minimum rolls. If they clicked Knock Off (or anything else shy of Ice Punch), you can roost up faster than they can deal additional damage.

Panda Calcs

Pangoro Obliterates standard Flygon:
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 375-442 (124.5 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 304-358 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Bulky DD Flygon has a shot:
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 262-310 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 213-252 (59.1 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 144-169 (40 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pangoro: 132-156 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Pangoro: 198-234 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

To beat Bewear safely, you need to be at +1 when it comes in, but they might risk it if you have some chip because the matchup against standard DD Flygon favors Bewear ever-so-slightly. That said, even if you are boosting up together, it's a roll in your favor as to who wins unless they're running Silk Scarf or Life Orb or the like:

Bewear calcs

Bewear wallops standard Flygon:
252 Atk Bewear Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Flygon: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bulky Flygon is Bulky:
252 Atk Bewear Double-Edge vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 160-190 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Bewear Double-Edge vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 322-379 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Meanwhile, you 2HKO clean at +1
+1 0 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bewear: 195-229 (51.1 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Beyond being an okay emergency check to the fighters, this guy either roosts or DDs on lots of threats while forcing them out, KOing, or giving you a safe, slow pivot:

'Mons that can't break Bulky DD Flygon

252+ Atk Copperajah Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 181-214 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 73-87 (20.2 - 24.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 208-246 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerodactyl Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 98-116 (27.2 - 32.2%) -- approx. 47.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Flygon: 167-197 (46.3 - 54.7%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Rotom-Mow Leaf Storm vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Flygon: 220-261 (61.1 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 161-190 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Raichu-Alola Psyshock vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 253-300 (70.2 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Drain Punch vs. 236 HP / 236+ Def Flygon: 231-274 (64.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Thank you for listening to my TED Talk

 

[turtledoggo1]

*UPDATED

This doesn't really relate to the suspect thread but I just needed to clear my thoughts. I'd like to sincerely apologize for what happened during the sigi suspect. I asked ppl to forfeit for wins. Yes, it was very stupid of me. Looking back now it was a really dumb thing for me to do. I got infracted, and I have learned from my mistake. For the bear suspects, I have gotten my reqs through not cheating, and will actually be my first official suspect that I've gotten reqs for. Once again, I apologize for what happened during the sigi suspect.

For the reqs, I used a variant of Ho3nConfirm3d hail team.

team

https://pokepast.es/e2e070d66aa0086c

Hail is super underrated, and is definitely good. Arcto is amazing as a wallbreaker and can clean through teams easily. your main counterplay to scarf mienshao is to hope you bait it with aurorus, or try and perserve decid/articuno to kill it. The other fighters aren't really a problem if you can position your mons right/ have aurorus as a sack. You can also make articuno more bulky to better withstand knock offs, but I just used 236 speed to creep base 80's. You could also try and use Ho3nConfirm3d hail team, which consists of dragalge and comfey to better deal with fighters and bring your hail abusers in.

Now on to the bears.



I love this pokemon, very fun, reliable and potent as a breaker that will always ensure a KO on the opposing field. Defensively, it offers a lot, being able to switch in and set up on a large portion of the metagame. Copperajah, a popular rocker gives bewear entry to break teams. Tyrantrum will not be able to KO bewear, and oftentimes gives bewear free setup. While other pokemon such as dhelmise, bronzong, flygon and more can all give it free set up opportunities. It can break through non dazzling gleam comfeys with ease, as draining kiss will do very little thanks to thick fat. Diancie isn't reliable against bewear's fighting attacks, however it will not die to a +2 drain punch. While sylveon is outsped and OHKO'd by +2 double edge. The list goes on about how potent bewear can be on the defensive and offensive side. Slow breakers, such as dragalge, golurk and pangoro will be outsped and either faint, or take heavy damage. All are ohko'd if bewear gets to +2. It can even run chople berry to counteract the other fighters in the tier, allowing it to take on mienshao, pangoro and more. Revenge killers are limited to fast special attackers which can be easily maneuvered around through team support. Screens bewear is something that has been very common recently, which further increases bewear's bulk to be able to increase longevity and pokemon deaths. Something doesn't need counters to not be broken. However due to bewear's sheer strength, bulk, and many set up opportunities. I am leaning towards it being banworthy.




This pokemon is like bewear, in the fact that it can almost always claim a KO, or at least cause heavy damage to teams. There's differences between this and bewear though. Bewear has more opportunities to switch in, thanks to thick fat and better overall bulk. Things like tyrantrum, dhelmise, escavalier etc... wont be things you want to be switching into, or you risk taking heavy damage or even dying in the process. It also has a lower speed tier than bewear, meaning it is outsped by a few common threats such as bewear and exploud. Since it's almost always choiced locked, it makes it easier to play around as it usually goes for knock off first for the fairies. It will need to predict late game or risk not claiming the ko's it wants, such as choosing between a steel type or a fairy. Offensively it is easy to pressure and revenge kill. Depending on the move, it is very easy to exploit. If you go for knock off, you give bewear and sd mienshao free set up, while also inviting fairies. Locking yourself into close combat invites in psychics, poisons. While also lowering your defenses, meaning any pokemon can easily revenge kill you. Locking yourself into a poison move or steel move will only bring more problems. This pokemon is good but not ban worthy.

if there's any suggestions for my future posts pls say

can bresselia

 

[EonX]

I already gave some of my thoughts on these two in aim's video this past Tuesday, but I'll kinda go into more detail on these two specifically now:

This mon is a damn demon and definitely the biggest issue in the tier imo. It has the raw power you'd want out of a wallbreaker / sweeper but comes with nearly unparalleled defensive utility as an offensive Pokemon. Chople SD can do absolutely ludicrous things, like set up on CB Pangoro Close Combat and take back most of its health with the subsequent Drain Punch. And that's one of the absolute hardest moves to take to the face and Bewear, with no bulk investment, takes just over 50%. And it's not like Bewear NEEDS a SD boost to be a problem. Double-Edge is a very powerful move that doesn't even need a boost to push serious damage onto Sylveon and Comfey. And that's kind of where the problem lies. Sure, it has tons of openings to set up an SD, but if it doesn't get one of those openings, it's still not a walk in the part to switch into. It has a few issues, like defensive Arcanine, Vileplume, and kind of Diancie (mainly because it doesn't take 40%+ from unboosted Double-Edge) but these are all common Pokemon you should be covering anyway, and Bewear can just sit on super common stuff like Copper, Tyrantrum (what is Head Smash again?) and Golisopod.

Ngl, as I've played more and understood Pangoro counterplay more, it's not nearly as bad as some make it out to be. Now, before I go on, yes, CB Pangoro is ridiculously hard to switch into bc of CC + Knock being so powerful and they work very well off of each other. The fact that Gunk Shot trashes Fairies and Fire Punch 2HKOes itemless Vileplume makes it all the harder to defensively check. But that's the thing, hard to defensively check. Its bulk is pretty mediocre and its Speed is kind of below average for an offensive mon. I feel the key to playing against Pangoro is to play it like you would Zydog in RU; turn it into more of a revenge killer rather than allowing it easy entry. Part of the problem I've found is that teams tend to employ 1-2 defensive Pokemon that just give Pangoro easy access at least once without fear of being OHKOed on the switch and that's what lets it really get the upper hand on teams. But there's plenty of good defensive or slower Pokemon that still make Pangoro unwilling to switch in. Diancie, Dragalge, Talonflame, and Golisopod are all slower, neutral to Fighting, Dark, or both, and are good against the meta at large while preventing Pangoro from switching in on most of their moves to impose its will. Now does that make Pangoro not ban worthy? I'm still undecided on that part personally, but for those that unequivocally think it's ban-worthy, try approaching your counterplay different. It's a lot easier to construct a team that forces Pangoro into being more of a revenge killer than it is to find truly safe defensive answers to it. And for a slow wallbreaker with limited defensive utility, forcing it to be more of a revenge killer is sometimes enough.

 

[Pokeslice]

I thought I'd give my thoughts on the suspected mons :D

Bewear needs to go. It's fantastic bulk with Fluffy, solid speed tier, and wall breaking potential with access to Swords Dance make it near impossible to play around at times. To me, what pushes it over the edge though and that hasn't been said yet, is the way it warps actual games offensively. Almost every single turn Bewear is in is a 50/50. Let's say turn 1 you lead a mon, such as Copper, that'll get scared out by Bewear or can't really touch it. If you switch to an offensive answer, and the Bewear user clicks Double Edge, suddenly you have a dead offensive answer. Now, let's say you go to defensive check of sorts, but the Bewear user SD's. Suddenly, your defensive mon, such as Vileplume hoping to punish the physical attack, just...doesn't exist. Obviously every turn won't be this straightforward, but a lot of them are, and playing around this every single time is inconsistent. Bye bye Bewear

As strong as it is, I'm surprised it was being suspected now. Bewear is one of the premier answers to Pangoro and I personally think the tier needs time without Bewear to see where Pangoro falls. As of now, I feel like we have a solid amount of counterplay, and although it can be really really hard to switch into, as EonX said, it's all about not letting it on the field, and as of right now, I think that's manageable, but would get even easier fpr Goro with Bewear gone. I say keep Pangoro for a little bit longer and see how it is. It's a very powerful breaker, which imo we need in the tier, that has trouble consistently getting in some games and can be handled by more offensive teams and solid bulky cores.

 

[Mariannabelle]

Bewear. I say in my head that Bewear needs to go, so I'll vote BAN if I decide to get my reqs. Something in the back of my head is making me unComfey with that, though, and I'll do my best to explain why here.

If you ask me, Bewear is a critter that really pulls its weight against balance teams. It sets up SD on the likes of Copperajah, or Shao locked into something, or whatever. Then, your Sylveons and your Vileplumes and your Mantines and your other generic slow balance mons die, because they can't take a +2 Double Edge or Close Combat or whatever. (Very anticlimactic). Bewear outspeeds most of the things that it's gonna be wallbreaking, and it has great defensive utility between its HP and Fluffy, so it's hard to revenge with slow, weak teams.

As far as straight switchins go? Yeah. That's hard to come by (Arcanine and some nutty niche stuff like Runerigus is your best bet, and stuff like Talonflame can take an unboosted hit, fish for Flame Body, and Flamethrower if Bewear boosts). Almost as if it's a good wallbreaker.

You'd think that we would see a rise in usage in stuff that just keeps Bewear out a bit better. Stuff that fits on a balance team while keeping the team from crumpling under +2 Bewear. Stuff like Celebi and Heliolisk and Starmie and whatnot. Well, we don't really see them much nowadays, even though they would really help the matchup against Bewear.

They aren't rising in usage, because the meta (read: Mienshao)* isn't kind to them, and that in turn just makes Bewear have a field day against the remaining balance.

Ergo, in it's current form, I think Bewear is too good, but I also think people should realize that it lowkey isn't Bewear's fault that the meta's being shoved into a very, uh, vulnerable-to-Bewear position. I say BAN, but keep those things in mind.

*EDIT: (I almost forgot to add the text for my asterisk note here, whoops.) I don't think I'm wrong, here. We all know nobody uses Celebi over Plume, because of Shao (to an extent, Pangoro too). People don't like running Starmie over Mantine or Vapes, because Shao. You don't see fasterish special attackers much of all, because... Shao. And Bewear loves that.

Yeah, it gets kills, but even with you-know-who (in case you don't, it's Shao) squeezing the tier into slow balance, Pangoro is one of the easiest critters to keep out. Most opposing wallbreakers don't let it in, and many defensive mons can run creep for it (especially considering that Pangoro kinda is always Adamant), and then you've got ye olde itemless Plume and whatnot. Absolutely DNB.
EDIT: Yeah, I said it. This mon is so easy to deal with it's not even funny. Consider being ready to double when they bring their Pangoro in on Zong. (Yeah, I'll own it. I'm biased af. I'm aggressive, and basically any degree of aggression is enough to keep Pandaboi at bay. My favorite team at the moment has zero critters that let Pangoro in and only one that's outsped and OHKO'd.)

----------------
When I look at stuff and try to determine whether it's unhealthy or not, I think what I refer to in my head as specificity. Basically, how specific do you have to be to address a threat? In both Bewear and Pangoro's case, reacting to one when you've been forced out is highly specific, (arguably moreso for Pangoro). Blankets aren't safe from them. If you want a Bewear wall, you'll need a fat (often Colbur) Ghost type or Arcanine, and Pangoro has players leaning on itemless Plume, which is nuts and also not a silver bullet, honestly.
On the other hand, with regards to Pangoro, attacking it and beating it is highly UN-specific, because its low bulk, low speed, and whatever typing means that you don't need to think much at all to have a team full of Pangoro checks. The speed issue is that it doesn't function well without being Adamant, when other breakers like Bewear justify SPE-boosting natures. This is true right now, and I am of the opinion that this is enough to compensate for it being difficult to react to.
In Bewear's case, the overall effective bulk in conjunction with its ease of running Jolly make attacking and beating Bewear a much more specific task than in Pangoro's case, and therefore we have a critter that is very specific to react to AND somewhat specific to immediately force out. I also think that there are plenty of potential balance options that would lower the specificity of keeping Bewear out, that just aren't very viable because of other forces at work. If, for instance, we had a tier where Celebi, Heliolisk, and Starmie were common, then I would support retesting Bewear back in.

 

[lax]

I wanna say that I fr struggled to get reqs at first. My preferred team style is bulky balance/offense, and the latter is incredibly difficult to build around atm IMO. I think I went through like 3 accounts and definitely malded over rng in my games, slight malding at least

This is what I used from bottom to top in chronological order. I ended up giving up on the first 3 teams and just spamming hail for 34 games, and I guess I don't regret it? lmao, it's fast and efficient so I don't really mind. here's a pokepaste of every team if you wanted to try them or adjust them

if you're interested in the teams I used, I'll put them in a tab with descriptions and reasoning

suspect teams

IMPORTANT!!!: people have always said that I'm the only one capable of using my teams, and they are super prediction heavy for the most part so maybe just take some ideas. they are likely awful and bad

team 1: I actually got this general team idea from a random person I played on ladder. I first started reqs by just using a random BO team, but then I ran into this dude who was just using 6 threats on his team and I thought why not. the team is 3 of the strongest offensive threats in the tier in vanilluxe, golurk and bewear. then, I added xatu for role compression through haze for cresselia/bewear and tp for zong which was really annoying. I added talonflame for mienshao which is a huge threat and av lapras just to sponge special hits from things like galarcuno. I do NOT recommend this team unless you wanna just click hard against low ladder, it stopped being good after like 15 games

2: I kept facing hail and even tried a random hail I threw together and noticed that shell smash blastoise just beats hail teams. you set up on sandslash or even life orb arctovish if you need to and you easily outspeed them. on the hail team someone posted above, you even chew sucker punch from decidueye with ease. it's a hard cteam that team, essentially. blastoise doesn't win the mu alone, so I added sub drum poliwrath cuz it's fun and set up sweepers in SD decidueye and DD scale shot ttrum. decidueye is sd adamant, so pretty useless vs bewear but +2 sneak has a really good chance at killing mienshao without sr and can also just one shot with sr 100% at +2. pretty fun team and actually kinda solid, I only really lost when I ran into random scarfers like celebi that prevented the poliwrath sweep. oh and the dude who uses spdef blastoise with toxic cuz that made my blastoise irrelevant

3. I'm a BO player at heart, so I tried my best to make a team that was solid. arc does a good job at beating bewear, and plume is good for beating pangoro and mienshao. vaporeon hard walls hail because it chews vish's non-invested freeze dry with ease and sandslash can hardly touch it. copperajah is a steel + op + strong, flygon for elec immune and speed and decidueye cuz I've rly liked using sd LO decidueye lately. I made it spirit shackle>sneak because I lost to an itemless growth plume (demon mon btw). this team really struggles against lo mienshao teams if a. you don't effect spore on u turn and b. if they have an espeon or xatu to block strength sap. this team was pretty solid though and probably would've gotten reqs if I played more after the spirit shackle change, but I was lazy and on a hail streak so

4. the hail team has the standard 4 hail users in lead aurorus, icy rock vanilluxe and the breakers vish and sandslash. eq is nice on aurorus for the elephant to chip it down for the rest of the team and encore is nice to force ppl to lock into sr and other things like sd bewear. vish is standard. sandslash doesn't have sd because I feel like there aren't many oppurtunities for it to set up and the 3 attacking moves it has are really difficult to switch into so it's always doing massive damage. spin is just better for role compression and freeing up the rest of the team. dragalge is amazing for hail for the tspikes removal and setting its own. it's also a really bulky pokemon and can always eat a fake out from mienshao into CC without dyinng to 2 CCs. it also is my anti blastoise measure because I ev'd it to always live +2 modest ice beam and ohko back. decidueye because I'm on a decidueye hype train rn fsr. with this team, I always lead aurorus and use vish to break primarily and then sandslash cleans up later

the decidueyes can be hurricane > sneak/shackle to catch vileplume and not be walled by bewear

Anyways, onto the actual suspect itself. I'm gonna be voting *BAN* on both the bears. it seems completely agreed upon that bewear will be banned, just from what I've seen posted on this thread and on discord, so I won't talk about it.

I think the panda is really good and actually has 0 switch ins. Vileplume is probably the primary one, but it can't switch into either CB knock -> strength sap nullifier or CB Darkest Lariat. EonX mentioned fire punch on panda, which is probably fine, but Darkest Lariat lets it spam its strong dark moves still and will always 2ohko after rocks with a chance to 2ohko without.
252 Atk Choice Band Pangoro Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 160-190 (45.1 - 53.6%) -- 39.8% chance to 2HKO
Realistically, plume is never gonna be at full and hazards will likely be up. this is also jolly pangoro vs a max defense plume, and people run either ada or not max defense plume, so that's fine too. Back to the point, the panda just has no switch in and I feel like not many people agree with this, but I think it easily takes bewear's spot following a ban and may be even worse if bewear is already banned. my prediction is that it'll end up incredibly restrictive, and with the two bears banned, the tier will have a lot more breathing room and versatility. obv, these are my opinions and not representative of the entire councils, idk if I need to say that lool

tl;dr banning both and my teams are ass

oh yeah - NUTLAX

 

[Segetarius]

I feel that Pangoro Isn't getting enough attention in the current discussion about the latest round of suspect testing, so allow me to elaborate on why Pangoro needs to go.

Most of the arguments I hear spewed from those against banning Pangoro is something along the lines of it's worse than Bewear; slower, frailer, less immediately powerful, and more checkable. So let's get to dismantling these arguments a little bit. First of all, why are people so fixated on 2 speed points that Pangoro loses compared to Bewear? Well, obviously because it makes Bewear an excellent offensive check to Pangoro, but lets look at things this way, what happens when you take Bewear out of the equation? The fact of the matter is that really the only reason Pangoro's 58 speed is significant is specifically because of Bewear, otherwise Pangoro is still outspeeding the slower bulky meta and those that can run speed for it can't really switch in safely. Look down the list of NU Pokemon and what you'll find is that besides Bewear, the only Pokemon that can go offensive and slightly edge out Pangoro in speed is Sylveon. Otherwise, things are already faster or slower than it. Broke mon checks broke mon isn't a good argument to keep Pangoro. In terms of it's bulk and predictability, does Pangoro care all that much about the fact that it's much more of a known quantity? So what if your opponent recognizes that Pangoro is CB 90% of the time, that doesn't make their position any easier given that you can still easily fire off no-drawback CCs and Knocks whenever you get Pangoro in. As for getting it in, the panda happens to pair well with a number of the common pivots, giving you both consistent ways in and a backbone to fall back on when you have to get out. But wait! It's easier to check. Offensively, sure, the lack of Fluffy makes it easier to KO, lets just ignore the fact that CB is traditionally a hit and run style item and the previously mentioned synergy with the tiers pivots. But defensively, there really isn't much. Fairies are trashed by Gunk Shot (and are easy to wear down with CC after their Leftovers are Knocked), Vileplume isn't favored to live 2 Knocks unless it's itemless, which really has no reason to exist besides beating Pangoro, etc. The defensive counterplay is pretty much non-existent, but we already knew that.

Make no mistake, this post is not written to downplay Bewear or overexaggerate Pangoro's capabilities, but I pose the question again, what happens when Bewear is banned and Goro is left to terrorize the tier? Banning Bewear not only removes one of the best counters to Pangoro, it just rearranges the meta back to the state it's in, just swap the defensive mons (minus Arcanine, who's shredded by Pangoro) from running 241 speed to 237 or 216 depending on if they want to outrun Jolly or Adamant Pangoro. But wait! Pangoro will have new competition with mons that will become better like Sirfetch'd and Machamp, which have their own unique advantages. Well the difference is that those two actually have counters, notably Palossand for Machamp and (while there really isn't a perfect counter) Weezing for Sirfetch'd. My argument is rather simple, and it's one that's been used for a while, broken mon making less broken mon more manageable doesn't make less broken mon okay. It's time the NU meta moved on to having good but not oppressively good fighting types, and if we can get both Bewear and Pangoro out, we'd be two steps in the right direction.

If you read all of this, I apologize for how long this ended up being and I hope you enjoy your day!

 

[Stories]

I think banning either of these Pokemon will be a national holiday for the premier steel types of the tier, so here's a neat utility mon I've been using to great effect on ladder:

Aggron @ Chople Berry
Ability: Heavy Metal / Rock Head
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Block
- Heavy Slam / Head Smash

Now Aggron isn't seen much nowadays, but anybody who remembers when it was popular remember it for what Tyrantrum does now, albeit not nearly as well. Pretty much any Steel or Ground type was required on a team to put a stop to it. Now keep in mind outside of Gastrodon, the Ground and Steel types who come in on this Aggron are all physical attackers; Mudsdale, Flygon, Copperajah, and Bronzong. Remember those Pokemon when I give you these calc's, along with a few other nice ones :)

DEFENSIVE SWITCH-INS TO "CHOICE BAND AGGRON" ;D (you can Iron Defense as much as needed vs these :))

VS BRONZONG

0 Atk Bronzong Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Aggron: 64-76 (18.6 - 22%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Def Bronzong Body Press vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Aggron: 44-52 (12.7 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO

+2 252+ Def Aggron Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 159-188 (47 - 55.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

VS COPPERAJAH

252+ Atk Copperajah Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Aggron: 112-136 (32.5 - 39.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Copperajah Heat Crash (40 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Aggron: 12-15 (3.4 - 4.3%) -- possibly the worst move ever

+2 252+ Def Aggron Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Copperajah: 664-782 (172.4 - 203.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

MUDSDALE

0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Aggron: 124-148 (36 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Def Aggron Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 176-208 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

OFFENSIVE SWITCH-INS TO "CHOICE BAND AGGRON" ;D (You get like one Iron Defense upon switch-in then beat them 1v1)

VS BEWEAR

252 Atk Bewear Drain Punch vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Aggron: 56-68 (16.2 - 19.7%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Bewear Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Aggron: 134-162 (38.9 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Def Aggron Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fluffy Bewear: 294-347 (77.1 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

VS FLYGON

252 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Aggron: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Def Aggron Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 294-347 (97.6 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

VS PANGORO

252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Aggron: 150-176 (43.6 - 51.1%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ Def Aggron Body Press vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pangoro: 598-704 (180.6 - 212.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

SOME FUN FACTS:

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chople Berry Aggron: 234-276 (68 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Def Aggron Body Press vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Mienshao: 277-327 (102.2 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 254-302 (66.1 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Aggron Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Articuno-Galar: 354-416 (110.2 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Comfey: 318-374 (103.9 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Aggron Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 169-199 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Happy trapping and luring :)​

 

[Ren-chon]

Now that Ive got reqs I can throw in my thoughts about both dogs

I was a bit more skeptical about this one, but honestly I truly believe it should go. I wont touch the arguments of future proofing the tier by banning a mon that will be very likely broken once bewear goes but rather talk about how its currently faring in this meta. Imo, pangoro is the best its been ever since it was introduced to our tier. Some of the arguments against it are that its hard to be brought in, and how slow it is. While having a subpar speed for such a breaker is definitely a huge downside, I think the first topic doesnt really hold that true anymore. NU is shifting into a tier basically dominated by pivots, be it fast ones like like mienshao or talonflame, or even slower pivots such as dragalge and tp arcanine; not only that, but all those pivots often force your opponent into a situation where theyre forced to answer with bulkier mons that are just panda food. Also, even without pivoting, its not really that hard to bring it in by just switching into weaker/slower mons like gastro, BPress-less zong, Moonblast-less cress, mudsdale and so on. Then, once its in, it becomes almost impossible to switch into it; common answers like plume or sylveon cant really check it if theyre even a little bit chipped, (other) dark resists such as drapion, guzz and bewear will be taking at the very least a quarter of their HP whilst losing an item if pangoro doesnt click cc. All in all, I think pangoro is just too much for the tier to handle defensively, making some archetypes like bulky offense that can only afford 2 or, at best, 3 mons faster than pangoro (...with one of them being bewear, so we get in a situation where broken checks broken) and usually none of the 6 able to really switch into it safely that much worse to play, and that coupled with non-ho offense and stall being almost impossible to use lead to quite the stagnate tier. Since I dont really think a tier where Im forced to use 6 mons faster than pangoro is enjoyable, ban the panda.

 

[Mariannabelle]

I now have gone through enough alts and played enough games to get my reqs, bois, so I'll give you my finishing thoughts on the current suspect and then I'll get outta your hair. Don't bash me too hard for this, but I'll try rocking the echo chamber a bit-

I was pretty pro-ban when I first started, but at this point? I'm on the fence. Heck, I'm leaning no ban.

Look, if you think Bewear is an issue because it's hard to switch into, then you're taking your approach to opposing wallbreakers the wrong way. Don't get me wrong- it still has walls, like Arcanine and Pallossand and Renurigus. If you absolutely must wall Bewear, you have options. Otherwise, deal with Bewear in other ways. What you should not do is try in vain to wall Bewear with a bunch of neutral slowmons then come here to say how broken Bewear is because you insisted on running a slow-ass team with no dedicated Bewear wall.

bewear meme

If Bewear is unhealthy, it's not because it does, you know, what wallbreakers do. It would be because Bewear is both hard to wall *and* hard to dispatch through other means, for instance because of its bulk. And it certainly seems that way at first glance, between that impressive 120 HP and Fluffy. If I end up voting ban after all, this is why.

Honestly, this shouldn't be true. Offense users have already caught onto this, but cramming in such a way that Bewear is more restricted and isn't constantly firing off free attacks isn't impossible. Just because you don't feel like fitting the mons onto your team doesn't mean they don't exist. Have you ever considered using the mons NU has available to make your Bewear matchup easier? (This is a question I am asking you, the reader- don't skip this). Use Celebi, use Starmie, use Articuno-G, use Espeon. USE NU mons that beat Bewear. These are all critters that fit on balance. They don't switch in, but they can at least check it unlike their analogue Vileplumes and Mantines. I've played game after game after game and people are just neglecting their Psychic types and wondering why they're having trouble checking a common slow Fighting type. Putting aside Psychic types for a second, you also have other balance critters like Heliolisk and fast bulky Mantine and Goodra and Salazzle and other fast or fastish stuff that can hit Bewear's weaker SPD and pseudo-Fire weakness.
Use them. And if you don't want to use them, ask yourself why, and then ask yourself if Bewear is the real issue here.


-----

It's harder to hardwall than Bewear, but it doesn't matter because pandaboi compensates with a scrappy speed tier and poor defensive utility. 'But, but, it has a psychic imm-' Dude, it loses to Psychic types. We've seen this in Cress Moonblast and we'd see it in Dazzling Gleams from others if people would stop ignoring them. Pangoro might have one nice turn if they manage to get it in on your Copper or whatever; don't begrudge somebody for getting a hardpunish on a slow Steel type.

----

Oh, and as a bonus- if you must have something to answer *every* Fighting type in one slot, then I recommend DEF Talonflame. Just watch out for Shao Stone Edges and bring good hazard removal because your Boots get Knocked by Pangoro when coming in on it.

 

[Rabia]

Yeah I'm just not sold at all on either of your do not ban arguments. You offer the use of several not-good Pokemon (Celebi, Galarian Articuno, Espeon, etc) to deal with Bewear and then make a very weird strawman with Pangoro. I don't think a single soul is arguing that Pangoro being able to switch into Psychic-type moves qualifies as significant defensive utility comparable to what Bewear, Incineroar from last generation, or whatever other bulky wallbreaker can offer.

Pangoro is ludicrous because it requires minimal support to run roughshod over any non-offense build. Its synergy with prime pivots such as Flygon, Rotom-C, and Dragalge gives it a very easy time getting in against Pokemon it will always beat and removes the whole issue of its Speed and defensive prowess limiting how easily it can directly switch into foes. Sure, you can cite offense's matchup against it as justification to not ban it, but I don't think one single archetype's matchup should dictate whether we ban something or not.

Bewear, similarly, does far too much harm to the metagame to justify keeping around. It has some solid defensive counterplay in Arcanine, Cresselia under certain circumstances (you lose to Swords Dance Bewear if you don't have a Calm Mind boost), and some niche stuff like Palossand, but it's unlike many of the other sort of slow wallbreakers we've had before because of what it does defensively. Mienshao isn't a reliable revenge killer because of Chople Berry sets; Flygon just isn't strong enough to threaten the revenge kill without a good amount of chip damage; and fast special wallbreakers aren't always easy to shoehorn onto your team.

No one is arguing that these two have no counterplay in the teambuilder or in battle; what is being said, however, is that said counterplay is insufficient and at times unreliable. Bewear and Pangoro are just too good at what they do, and I believe getting rid of them would benefit the tier.

 

[Mariannabelle]

Regarding the psychics I mentioned-
I gotta question what’s ‘not good’ about them. They fulfill multiple roles- bulky grass, bulky water, ground immunity, etc. - while also checking fightings. This is an important role that we can’t just disregard these days, so critters that can do this would normally be considered good, not bad. This doesn’t just apply to offense teams- I mentioned them specifically because they are balance mons that greatly improve the Bewear matchup.

Regarding Pangoro, I’ll give a little context regarding that. Sometimes during DM conversation, the comparison of Bewear’s and Pangoro’s defensive utility comes up, and I’ve seen folks try to overemphasize Pangoro’s; one of the main points there supposedly is a psychic immunity, and what I was getting at is that no, Pangoro has no meaningful defensive utility. Unlike Bewear. It looks like a strawman at first glance, but it has context, just not from this thread. Sorry for the confusion.

Yes, I will acknowledge my biases as a player preferring to run offense. However, my experiences have led me to believe that balance does not have unwinnable or even excessively bad matchups against these Pokemon if they run the right answers. That doesn’t mean ‘run offense’, it means ‘run balance that actually checks +2 Bewear’. I believe balance will be fine if it does the above. I think mono-slowerthanPangoro is not a real archetype that needs protecting.

 

[Pabloaram]

The thing of using psychic to counter Bewear or use 2 mons to counter Cress tell why we need to ban this type of mon.
The problem is the mons than counter this mon are bad in this metagame outside of checking some broken mon wich make building harder bc you use some of this mons when being bad against the rest of the meta or build somewhat standar and lose to some broken shit.
For me wich i like to play balance bulky offence wich is imposible to make a good team rn bc the tier has more problem than the broken 4 like alolachu or hail.
This make you to build always the same and become so boring bc the standar isnt good enought and some niche mon lets you open to some cheeky HO wich low ladder low btw

 

[Expulso]

Have you ever considered using the mons NU has available to make your Bewear matchup easier? (This is a question I am asking you, the reader- don't skip this). Use Celebi, use Starmie, use Articuno-G, use Espeon. USE NU mons that beat Bewear. These are all critters that fit on balance. They don't switch in, but they can at least check it unlike their analogue Vileplumes and Mantines.

However, my experiences have led me to believe that balance does not have unwinnable or even excessively bad matchups against these Pokemon if they run the right answers. That doesn’t mean ‘run offense’, it means ‘run balance that actually checks +2 Bewear’. I believe balance will be fine if it does the above. I think mono-slowerthanPangoro is not a real archetype that needs protecting.

I agree that there's no real reason to make a team of 6 Pokemon slower than Pangoro or Bewear and then complain about how broken they are; that would be stupid. However, although running faster Pokemon gives you options to revenge them (and, for a few, switch in if you predict correctly), it doesn't prevent Bewear from being a massive problem.

Running Celebi/Starmie sounds like a good way to check it at first but max HP Starmie takes 63% minimum from Jolly SD (not Band) Bewear's Lariat or Double-Edge, forcing you to click Recover or die to Bewear next time it comes in. NP* Celebi takes 53% minimum from those 2 attacks. Bewear's many opportunities to enter the battle make it easy to make progress by attacking the Psychic on the switch, forcing the recovery move, and bringing in something to force it out.
*Defensive Celebi takes less, but it's honestly not a good Pokemon at all; without an attack for Steel-types, you're a sitting duck for Pokemon on every team in this meta, not to mention uturn weak etc etc

Bringing up these psychics as checks to Bewear also fails to consider that they are bad answers to every other Fighting-type; phys def Celebi (bad mon) might hold off Bewear for a while, but then you run into Mienshao and realize one of your fighting checks is 4x weak to U-turn (or run into Pangoro and click x). The fighting-types are simply too much for most balance teams to handle; as Pabloaram says above, if you add something like Phys def Comfey + Starmie / Celebi / Decidueye / another cool offensive Bear check, you struggle to fill out the rest of the team. You need Rocks, an electric immunity, usually a steel type; then you have to start answering other big threats like Cress, Salazzle, and offensive Water-types. In my experience building this tier the past few months, it is very difficult to check all the boxes you need in teambuilding.

That does not suggest that these other threats are more of a problem than Bewear/Pangoro, however, as you imply with the phrase "ask yourself if Bewear is the real issue here". I believe that Bewear and Pangoro are the two biggest threats that it is mandatory to be solid against, and other offensive Pokemon get more difficult to handle as a consequence of that. Banning them would definitely alleviate that pressure and allow balance teams to more easily use more creative Pokemon like the ones you mention.

It's great that this thread is so active, including posts from users with different viewpoints like Mariannabelle. I very strongly believe that removing Bewear and Pangoro will go a long way towards making the tier great. There's plenty of creative mons lying below the surface of standard Fairy-type + Vileplume + fast Bewear check cores that we are forced to run right now, and I think that without the restrictions Bewear and Pangoro (and maybeeee Cress/Mienshao?) place on teambuilding this tier will really be awesome. I look forward to that hopefully happening and appreciate the council suspecting both of them.

 

[lax]

The suspect test is done and Bewear and Pangoro were both banned!

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...stage-5-1-bewear-pangoro.3678111/post-8751669

Currently, Cresselia and Mienshao are on the council's radar so expect to see some news about them soon! We'd like to let the meta develop and see what changes resulting from these two bans.

With the Bear Bans, Mienshao is likely to be the premier wall-breaking Fighter. Its speed and abuse of the item Life Orb with Regenerator makes it a very annoying threat in the tier. It is not checked by many due to the combination of U-turn, Knock Off and a strong STAB in Close Combat. Definitely going to see how this mon's influence changes if at all.

Cresselia's insane sweeping potential and uncompetitive playstyle make it the most controversial Pokemon right now, so we will keep a close eye on it.

Thanks for bearing with us (lol), let's improve the tier one step at a time

 

[Rabia]

I think it's reasonable to expect a lot more of these three going forward. Sirfetch'd is a similarly powerful wallbreaker to Bewear and Pangoro with the positives of blasting Vileplume without setup via Brave Bird and strong priority in First Impression, improving its offense matchup. It's also a smidge faster than the bears, which is nice.

Machamp is slower than the two but has Guts to make it a nice status absorber. I'd like to think Assault Vest sets could have some place in the tier, but with most of our wallbreakers being physically oriented, I don't see that much potential for them going forward.

Toxicroak would really like for there to be more bulky Water-types a la Vaporeon; Gastrodon and Mantine both beat up on it pretty reliably, and we otherwise have offensive Water-types that can rather reliably clap the croaker with coverage moves. Nevertheless, I think setup sets have decent potential, especially with Cresselia seldom running Psyshock at the moment in favor of Stored Power.


I'm in favor of looking at Mienshao next. I'm still of the mindset that Cresselia's influence on the tier is largely overblown, whereas Mienshao is on another level compared to the other high-ranking threats. Its combination of speed and power is utterly ridiculous, and Regenerator makes it near impossible to punish through passive damage. Sure, it's frail and has some defensive answers, but many of them hate Knock Off or are really passive U-turn fodder (Arcanine, Talonflame, Palossand for instance). I hesitate to call Mienshao beyond a shadow of a doubt broken if only because of its frailty; there exists a good amount of Pokemon that either can take a hit from it and OHKO in return or simply outspeed it and do the same. I could see the argument of it simply being the best Pokemon in the tier, but I'd like for community input through a suspect test to determine that.

 

[Ren-chon]

Honestly, moreso than other Fight-types getting better, I think itll now be the time for Dark-types to shine. Guzzlord was already a beast before, but now with some of its biggest checks to the standard protox/physical set in Bewear and Pangoro gone, it will have soooo much more freedom in how you can play it out. Drapion is in a kinda similar spot, although it has some other checks that are rising in usage like Mudsdale; however, Dark/Poison offensive coverage is still annoying as hell to deal with even if its gated by low BP moves. I expect SD Drapion to see a rise in usage, and then shortly after the SDef set picking up too. Dont underestimate the combination of Knock + WW + TS folks. Oh, theres also Zoroark but not like it cared about Bewear anyway with the special sets lol


Likewise, physical Ghost-types are super super happy with the bans. Both Bewear and Pangoro made ghosts so awkward to use because 1) they both resisted their main stab move in poltergeist and 2) it was hard to justify ghosts as a Fight-type check since Bewear was immune to their stab and Pangoro just clicked CC without a care in the world. Pretty much the only thing that stands in their way now is itemless Vileplume, which Golurk and Dhelmise can still handle just fine, and other things like Arcanine (I got a feeling itll drop in usage considerably tho) and Guzz which arent exactly the most consistent checks given the coverage the trio can run.


They couldnt have asked for a better shift, honestly. Escavalier in special is such a nice pick rn to check stuff like CM Cress, Vileplume (if SD), and force Fire-types like Arcanine and Talon to lose their items. Its quite the nice mix between the offensive prowess of Copp + the threat checking potential of Bronzong. Golisopod similarly also loves Bewear being gone as it can now more freely spam First Impression + Liquidation, and with the tier being overrun by pivots rn hazard stack actually has quite the potential.


As ironic as that might sound, I think Cresselia might actually get a bit worse now (and might fall further once Mienshao gets banned). If youve paid attention to all the mons I believe will get better, youll realize that pretty much every single one of them is capable of checking Cress in some capacity; not only that, but less Fight-types also mean Steel-types will have an easier time, and with Drapion/Guzz being easier to fit on teams + Muds getting more common, stuff like max atk (or just atk invested) Ada Copp will get more and more common, requiring a lot more support for Cresselia to sweep like it used to. I still do think it deserves a suspect after Mienshao though, as the moon dog always somehow manages a way to either threaten a sweep or flat out sweep no matter how prepared you are; however it will probably go down a position or two on the broken scale.


Ive used and seen it being used a bit the past weeks and its actually surprisingly decent? FAR from the titan it used to be during pre-DLC 2 NU, but being an offensive mon taht doesnt give a fuck about Mienshao + spamming U-Turn on Steel-types into shit like Salazzle, Mienshao, Specs Starmie and such is really fun. Run it with Corrosive Gas Vileplume and youre guaranteed to at least give your opp a headache.


Broken, toxic presence in the tier, invalidates a whole archetype. Will talk more about it when the suspect thread goes up.

 

[roxie]

Mienshao is indeed hard to punish considering it can just U-turn and recover off chip damage when switching out with Regenerator. I do compliment Mienshao however in my suspect run in saving my butt against Hail teams and on paper, there are defensive answers (unlike Bewear/Pangoro but I'll comment more on this later). Hail teams have Artcovish and there really isn't anything that comes into a Fishious Rend or Freeze Dry(for bulky Water-types and Absorbers like Mantine and Gastrodon). Priority users like First Impression Golisopod, Sirfetch'd, and Flygon can be scouted with Protect then OHKO'd or threatened out by Fishious Rend. Some Pokemon that help with Hail teams are Scarf Meinshao which outpaces both Alolan Sandslash and Arctovish in Hail, Vaporeon, Neutralizing Gas Weezing which prevents Hail from setting as long as it's in battle, and stalling Hail turns with Ninjask. I do feel like Hail should be looked at especially if Meinshao does end up going.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-542016 Hail Team vs Non-Scarf Meinshao Team
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1268810176


I can agree with Rabia that none of the defensive options varying from Talonflame, Sylveon, Vileplume, and etc can really switch-in, and it's hard to punish bar Vileplume. Non-Choice Scarf sets are dealt with by simply running a Choice Scarf however or just using a Pokemon that's naturally faster like Ninjask(beats both sets), Starmie, Salazzle, etc. I also think about other Fightings like Sirfetch'd with Leek because it has similar coverage to Mienshao like a Brave Bird crit can OHKO a Vileplume switching in & Poison Jab OHKOs offensive Sylveon and outpaces defensive Sylveon or Machamp that OHKOs Talonflame with a 100% accuracy Stone Edge or Pjab to hit Fairies, but their speed tier is no match for Meinshao. I do feel like teams are still most likely going to run 2 Fighting resists with or without Meinshao being here, however.

I think a lot of the ban arguments of Meinshao is that a lot of the defensive switch-ins really aren't fit to switch into Meinshao without the risk of it "potentially" being OHKO'd or 2HKO'd because of its good coverage while also being hard to punish because of its combination of U-turn and Regenerator. Other Fightings like Sirfetch'd and Machamp do have similar coverage to it but they lack its speed, ability, and pivot in U-turn.


Cress has a few answers in the tier like Curse Copperajah, Escavalier, and Drapion. There are some other minor ones but the issue with Cresselia is that it's incredibly bulky. Cresselia is able to deal with both physical and special attacks and isn't bothered by Poltergeist a lot of the time since it has the option to use a berry or simply no item. It's able to avoid Toxic by using Substitute and it has enough speed to outpace a few defensive pokemon while also recovering with Moonlight or even Rest(which just heals off status). I do feel like this does deserve a suspect soon

I am in favor of testing Meinshao first then looking at Snow Warning and Cresselia.