Metagame NP: NU Stage 5.2 - Dancing in the Moonlight [Council Vote - Post #54]

[lax]

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We recently conducted a NU Community Survey in which we asked the community for their thoughts on the metagame. From the data we collected, an overwhelming majority of competitive players thought Mienshao (4.17/5) and Cresselia (3.96/5) are too much for NU to handle. As a result, we have conducted a council vote in order to ban Mienshao and are going through with a suspect test for Cresselia. Cresselia was not voted on by council because the majority of council members do not find Cresselia to be overwhelming for the tier. However, the opinions gathered from the survey highlight the need for a suspect.

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In previous generations, Cresselia was used primarily as a utility Pokémon due to its access to Toxic, Thunder Wave, Trick and Lunar Dance. These moves, along with its bulk, make it a very capable wall that provides support for its team.
These utility sets aren't considered broken, and can even be argued to be beneficial to the metagame. Its sheer bulk and access to recovery allows it to act as a much needed sturdy switch in to powerful Fighting types such as Sirfetch'd and Machamp. The real question is if its supportive capabilities are reason enough to preserve it in the tier, or if its Calm Mind sets push it over the edge.

With Cresselia's introduction into Sword and Shield, it gained access to a move that changed its playstyle completely: Stored Power. This move adds a potent move to sweep after several Calm Mind boosts, and while it isn't always run, it makes for many different sets to account for in the builder. This, combined with Cresselia's amazing 120/120/130 bulk (for HP/Def/SpDef respectfully), enables it to be an egregiously annoying threat. Cresselia is able to Calm Mind on the majority of Pokémon due to its bulk, while also outspeeding many defensive Pokemon. This allows it to use Substitute to avoid status effects or outspeed both Taunt Pokémon and strong physical threats. As a sweeper, Cresselia has two primary sets: Kee Berry + Rest or Substitute. The use of Kee Berry and Rest allows Cresselia to sponge status affects and continue to set up with little issue. It beats sets such as Toxic Bronzong and Copperajah, two Pokémon used to counter most other Psychic types. The Substitute set allows it to sub on bulkier Pokémon such as the aforementioned Bronzong and, once set up, can hide under Substitutes to avoid scary moves and threaten the opponent's Pokémon out.

While Cresselia is a volatile wincon, it is not without flaws. Haze Pokémon such as Mantine or Xatu wall any set up Cresselia due to its incredibly weak offensive stats, and Pokémon that can sponge +1 attacks from Cresselia such as Escavalier and Decidueye can threaten it out with ease. Additionally, Rest sets leave Cresselia vulnerable for multiple turns, allowing the opponent to take advantage. The main thing to consider about Cresselia is how weak it is unless it sets up. Stored Power is an incredibly strong move, but is also extremely weak before Calm Mind boosts. Cresselia only becomes a threat once it can safely set up in the endgame, assuming one eliminates or cripples its checks. These attributes make Cresselia easier to handle in practice; however, it forces specific counters and is tricky to play around while being easy to use, making it hard to deal with. There are multiple sides to the argument, and one's own opinion can only be formed by experience.

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice. **It is now 79 compared to 80 from the last test**​

minimum games needed

GXE​	minimum games​
79​	50​
79.2​	49​
79.4​	48​
79.6​	47​
79.8​	46​
80​	45​
80.2​	44​
80.4​	43​
80.6​	42​
80.8​	41​
81​	40​
81.2​	39​
81.4​	38​
81.6​	37​
81.8​	36​
82​	35​
82.2​	34​
82.4​	33​
82.6​	32​
82.8​	31​
83​	30​

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NUCR. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NUCR lax
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.​
• We will be using the regular NU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.​
• The aspects being tested, Cresselia, will be allowed on the ladder.​
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.​
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.​
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until March 13th at 11:59 pm (GMT-5), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.​

 

[Pokeslice]

Before I begin, shoutout to the council for a Shao ban+Cress suspect. I think this was exactly what the people wanted and what the tier needed to develop.

Anyways, here's my thoughts on why Cress NEEDS to go. As most people know, I've been a super vocal "Fuck Cress" supporter over the past two months, and although I've laid out my thoughts on why Cress is problematic and how to beat it over here, I thought I would do a small post here anyways. My problems in Cress lie in how restrictive it is in the builder and on the field. As I mention the post above, if you don't want to lose to Cress, you NEED to run two checks of some kind, whether that's a hard wall like Escav+Wish or Haze Mantine+an offensive answer. Checking this mon is a team effort, and if you don't go into the builder with that mindset, you'll lose 4/5 times to Cress, especially for teams without an Escav. If your main answer is a fast Toxic, that could work until you face Sub (pleaseee don't make this the only answer you have) or if you're only answer is Drapion/Offensive Ghost, you lose to a well played Trick Cress. Even Haze isn't an answer if you can never kill Cress. PP stalling can't be your only way to break Cress. With how easy it is to prep for those threats for Cress, having two, especially if it's a less reliable answer, more passive one, or able to get worn down easily, is key to beating this demon.

The main thing to consider about Cresselia is how weak it is unless it sets up

As for the argument I've seen against Cress saying that it's too passive at first and needs to set up, I find this to be a terrible argument against Cress. If you're expecting Cress to run through teams from the get go, you're using Cress very very wrong. This argument assumes that a) the Cress check is still alive and b) it's the early stages of a game. What makes Cress so potent is it's power as a sweeper. Literally the second the Cress check goes down, it sets up on almost everything and just wins. Sure some games it can go from turn one, but if you're argument for DNB is because Cress can't do this reliably, then I think you need to play around with Cress some more. What makes it scarily potent is how easy it is to build around. You can fit a reliable answer to every single Cress check onto a team with ease, making a Cress endgame possible in 3/4 games you'll play, and once it can set up, it's over. Ban Cress thanks :D

 

[Rabia]

As for the argument I've seen against Cress saying that it's too passive at first and needs to set up, I find this to be a terrible argument against Cress. If you're expecting Cress to run through teams from the get go, you're using Cress very very wrong. This argument assumes that a) the Cress check is still alive and b) it's the early stages of a game. What makes Cress so potent is it's power as a sweeper. Literally the second the Cress check goes down, it sets up on almost everything and just wins. Sure some games it can go from turn one, but if you're argument for DNB is because Cress can't do this reliably, then I think you need to play around with Cress some more. What makes it scarily potent is how easy it is to build around. You can fit a reliable answer to every single Cress check onto a team with ease, making a Cress endgame possible in 3/4 games you'll play, and once it can set up, it's over. Ban Cress thanks :D

I'll make a more thorough post eventually, but this paragraph is super disingenuous about the point made in the OP. Yes, Cresselia can win games once its counterplay is removed, and yes, you can easily teambuild around Cresselia to help it out. However, it's extremely unfair for you to argue under the assumption Cresselia's ideal end-game is always going to occur. Just as you can teambuild to benefit Cresselia's sweeping potential, others can teambuild to inhibit it, and it's not even that hard. The fact remains Cresselia as a Pokemon has so little offensive presence without multiple Calm Mind boosts, and this is an active detriment to its ability to truly "get going" and become this sweeping menace its painted to be. Because of this, playing into Cresselia is much less daunting because you can afford it more time than say, Shell Smash Blastoise, which can end a game in significantly fewer turns.

Denying Cresselia's extreme potential would be irresponsible of me, and I don't want this post to read like I'm calling Cresselia nearly incapable of sweeping. I recognize how easy it is to leverage Cresselia's defensive excellence into setup opportunities. However, I think simplifying Cresselia's gameplan to "check go down, me set up" is unfair and does a poor job of recognizing overall counterplay to Cresselia.

 

[Finchinator]

On the one hand, the core of Pokeslice's argument about Cresselia being restrictive in the builder is a great point. There are very few universal checks or counters to Cresselia.

On the other hand, Rabia's point is really fair and sort of cuts into the main reason why I do not believe the dynamic I outline in the above is not alone enough to ban Cresselia.

Just as you can teambuild to benefit Cresselia's sweeping potential, others can teambuild to inhibit it

I think this is the point I resonate with the most because of that -- there are so many ways to mitigate the effectiveness of Cresselia. Status, item displacement, repeated offensive pressure, etc. While it is true that these things are limited due to some parts of Cresselia's sets like Substitute, amazing bulk, and various different moves, it is still possible to pressure, especially with more offensive structures.

Some things I have found helpful along the way towards containing Cresselia offensively are: Decidueye (flimsier than you would like far more temporary than permanent on this front), Escavalier (about as good as it gets as a counter), Golurk (similar to Decidueye), Drapion (some sets actually can lose 1v1 to Cresselia, but I have been trying out a couple of SD variants and they can lead to positive sequences), Silvally-Ghost (one of my favorite forms actually -- only thing holding it back is lack of recovery, so it's only a 1-2 time check), Hail teams (not gonna go into this, but they overwhelm it usually), and Centiskorch (feel like this bugger died out, but I think there's still a very clear niche, even if it's more fringe) or Golis (meh -- it can backfire, but still can be effective). Some things I found helpful along the way towards containing Cresselia defensively are: Mantine and Vaporeon (I find Haze to be particularly good on both nowadays, but I admit it is harder on Vaporeon), Talonflame can run Taunt + status (not always reliable depending on the situation, but it's a strong Pokemon regardless), Copperajah (feel like it's on more teams than not, but admittedly it is needed for many things -- I really like using the Curse set with a different Stealth Rocker to help vary team archetypes and Whirlwind is underrated), Silvally-Steel (depends on set and it's not as common as it once was, but at least always wins the 1v1 if it is not a bad set), and then fringe utility options like Encore Salazzle, Roar Mudsdale, Trick, etc.

I guess the more I write about it, the more I realize that a lot of this counterplay is circumstantial and I understand the pro-ban side, but at the same time, I feel much more confident about it in practice than I do in the builder, making me wonder where the disconnect truly is. I am not yet ready to declare my vote, but my initial leanings are to vote do not ban just given how I feel about it when I face it. More later probably.

Working on getting full survey results up now!

 

[Mariannabelle]

I think it’s important to point out that Cresselia’s bulk and recovery options strongly make it incomparable to other setup critters like Smashtoise.
Nothing else can attempt to safely set up on as many things as Cresselia, and no other set up sweeper can come in as many times as Cresselia can, forcing the check to come in each time. In practice, what I’ve seen is many games where Cresselia is checked by something like Drapion, or Escavalier, or whatever, but in the end, teams protecting Cresselia from Drapion and friends almost categorically last longer than a team protecting itself from Cresselia using whatever Cress check they have.

Drapion and friends simply do not last as long as Cress does in the longterm. Part of the reason for this is that the ability of Cresselia checks to safely check anything else is neutered if they want to be a Cresselia check.
Example: Haze Mantine.
If you run Haze and give up Defog, you need another fogger somewhere else. If you give up Toxic, you can’t check any Waters. You can’t safely check Fires at all because they might have special coverage and if you die you lose to Cresselia. And so on and so forth. (Note 1)

This applies to *every* Haze user, by the way: if it’s your sole Cresselia check, then you cannot leverage its defensive properties without a much higher degree of risk than if you weren’t fighting Cresselia. This also applies to Drapion and friends, too- Escavalier wants to check more than just Cresselia on a given team, and it’s extremely prone to random coverage like Mystical Fire on Sylveon or whatever.

(Note 1) Cresselia is unique in this regard. Even if my hard Blastoise check Mantine gets popped by random coverage, I can still soft check it with healthy mons that take one hit, priority + attacking it as it sets up, etc. Realistically, soft checking Cresselia is near impossible if you aren’t obsessively stacking your team to keep Cresselia’s HP low. Cresselia has nutty bulk, Moonlight and can even justify Rest. Smashtoise doesn’t have these things.

The problem with Cresselia isn’t that there’s nothing in the builder for it; the problem is that even with a ‘good Cress check’, you’re still operating at a massive disadvantage against it because it is always much safer than whatever you throw at it. It’s less prone to being soft-checked than anything else, it’s much less prone to being caught off guard by coverage moves than anything else, it’s got an unreasonable longevity compared to any of its hard checks.

 

[Stories]

while Cresselia's ability to snowball through unprepared teams can seem (or possibly is) broken, here are a few (viable) checks that can "comfortably" switch into Cresselia and force it out or beat it 1v1

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Drapion

Drapion @ Black Sludge
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance / Taunt
- Poison Jab / Toxic Spikes
- Earthquake / Whirlwind (?)

Drapion's unique typing, stats, and movepool make it a very good Cresselia check, most notably its Specially Defensive set, although Swords Dance sets can typically cleave through Cress just as effectively. Battle Armor being able to ignore crits from a premature set-up Cress is icing on the cake for Drapion's immunity to Stored Power / Psyshock and indifference to unboosted Moonblasts, while its movepool holds the perfect mixture of offense and distruption to prevent Cress from ever setting up effectively; Drapion can stop set-up entirely with Taunt or it can power itself up with Swords Dance to brute force its way through Cress. Swords Dance sets typically run Poison Jab and Earthquake to make the most of its stat boosts even after managing Cress, while Taunt sets tend to go full support mode with Toxic Spikes and possibly Whirlwind, if not one of Poison Jab or Earthquake

Trapper Decidueye

Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Long Reach
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spirit Shackle
- U-turn
- Swords Dance
- Roost

Swords Dance Decidueye

Decidueye @ Spell Tag
Ability: Long Reach
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance

Nasty Plot Decidueye

Decidueye @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Leaf Storm
- Roost
- Nasty Plot

Choice Specs Decidueye

Decidueye @ Choice Specs
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Shadow Ball
- U-turn
- Air Slash / Giga Drain

Decidueye manages to pull off a multitude of sets that can scare off Cresselia in one way or another, while also being able to pull off other roles at the same time, be it a Trapper to support a sweeper, or to be the sweeper itself. The Trapper set simply Spirit Shackles the Cress in so there's no escape for it, and the other 3 sets just try to brute force their way through Cress before it gets too big. (along w other Spooky bois like Silvally-Ghost, Golurk, and Dhelmise)

Choice Band Escavalier

Escavalier @ Choice Band
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

SDef Escavalier

Escavalier @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head / Mega Horn
- Knock Off
- Protect
- Toxic / Swords Dance

Escavalier is most definitely the best Cresselia answer we have right now. In a vacuum there is no possible way for a Cresselia to beat an Escavalier in a 1v1, whether it's Choice Band, Swords Dance, SDef, or a mix of 2 of those 3, the amazing natural bulk and resisting all of Stored Power / Psyshock, Moonblast, and even the one-off Ice Beam, while always being able to 2HKO Cresselia makes it impossible for Cresselia to break through Escav.

These are all the most common checks to Cresselia, obviously most Steel types give it some kind of issue and no pokemon is "unkillable", so feel free to reply w your favorite Cress killers that I forgot to mention

 

[Segetarius]

Cresselia is a complicate issue and I feel that the only way to truly resolve it will be through as much discussion as possible, so here's my two cents:

While it would be stupid to say that Cresselia isn't one of the most potent, centralizing forces in the meta, I feel like it is worth noting that Cresselia isn't the perfect Pokemon, and those issues are worth mentioning. While I've become more on the fence about Cresselia over the course of a few months, I would be lying if I said that I wasn't leaning towards DNB for this thing, but that is not to say that there isn't a strong, credible argument to ban it.

If there is a single reason that I'd ban Cresselia, it would be for the fact that it is a huge question mark on your opponents team. After the obligatory Calm Mind, Cresselia could be running 3 of Moonblast, Stored Power, Psyshock, Substitute, Rest, and Moonlight (to name a few). Furthermore, items are including but not limited to Leftovers, Colbur Berry, and Kee Berry. Each of these moves and item choices can significantly change what methods are more able to check it, and since the only common "consistent" counters to any given set is Escavalier and Drapion, figuring out the set can be a potentially disastrous guessing game. That being said, there are plenty of mons that can easily switch into Cresselia and can take boosted hits.

This brings us to why Cresselia is, in my opinion, a powerful mon that is not banworthy. While all the aforementioned moves can change what counterplay options you have for Cresselia, they also limit what it can do itself. If you're running a simple Sub/CM/Moonlight/Moonblast set, you sruggle to break things without accruing multiple boosts, and just to emphasize my point:

+6 0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 160-189 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

The fact that Psyshock is a move to consider is a testament to just how little of a threat Cresselia is to defensive staples such as these without boosts. "But what do they do back?" is the thing I always hear. Well, Finch elaborates on phasing if you want to check his post and Sylveon provides a reliable switch in and cleric for whatever your Cress counter is. Other moves have similar issues; Rest makes you setup fodder, mono-Psychic attack is walled by Dark types, no Sub is susceptible to status, etc.

"But Escav and Drap are the only real Cress counters, and they and all of the other checks can be built around!" Sure, if your team exists in a vacuum, you can have contingencies for all the Cress checks/counters, but welcome to reality. The idea that your opponent can't build around Cress and its supporting cast is ignorant, as Rabia points out. Furthermore, just due to the sheer amount of counterplay to Cress that is easy to fit on teams like status, Trick, phasing, certain boosting moves, etc. that all have use besides dealing with Cress is a issue for anyone using it. I think Cresselia's usage reflects this, coming in at #9 overall for the month; it's powerful, but has enough issues to warrant it being passed over.

"Well, even if you can't position Cress to sweep, at the very least it will act as a serious roadblock due to its raw bulk and threat potential!" Allow me to rephrase that for you; even if your bulky setup mon can't sweep, it will have defensive utility that forces your opponent to invest resources into it or be swept. Well... that's the point of running a bulky setup mon, and while yes, Cresselia is the definition of thicc in NU right now, it is not the "Lugia of OU" that it was in gen4. Defensive Psychic types have been flawed ever since Knock Off was buffed in gen6 and need I remind you that we are in the generation for Ghost types? Cresselia is far from impossible to break, which is why HO and BO are still plenty viable.

TLDR, Cress is powerful, there's no doubt about that, but it isn't a world-beater. Its bad case of 4mss especially contributes to why my opinion right now is DNB. For those that are pro-ban, I am open to debate and have looked at what I find are some of the more common arguments, but feel free to pick this post apart, that is the point of this thread after all :). Sorry for how long this post ended up being, I started typing and just didn't stop, so if you read all of it thank you and to everyone, have a nice day.

 

[Davon]

Cresselia (F) @ Kee Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
- Rest

Cresselia is broken. There's a lack of consistent counterplay to Cresselia which gives the Cresselia user leverage. The set I posted above has the least amount of counterplay imo. It needs a few turns to get the ball rolling, but Cresselia's bulk allows its sweeping potential to come to fruition. I think we can all agree that the reason for Cresselia's suspect is how dangerous Calm MInd sets can be. While support Cresselia sets are not considered broken, I think dual status with some spdef makes a great pivot capable of statusing any setup sweeper, Scarf Trick Cresselia is also great for crippling Bronzong. This proves Cresselia isn't just a sweeper, but is also capable of supporting its team and gives it further splashability. Most of the time the Cresselia opposition requires a crit to break Cresselia, which sometimes just means Cresselia is forced out for the turn and comes in later to sweep. There are ways of soft-checking Cresselia, but you still need a hard-check to Cresselia, you can't just stack soft-checks.

Item Displacement
I don't think item displacement is a valid argument to keep Cresselia. Knock Off will be weakened when Kee Berry is consumed, which means Drapion has to run a sub-optimal spdef set to beat Cresselia. Offensive Drapion is not a reliable check to Cresselia because if Kee Berry is activated and Cresselia is above ~75% then Cresselia will win (as shown in this replay https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1294790237 ) . The only common Trick user is Rotom-Mow which doesn't directly deal with Cresselia, and when a Rotom-Mow comes in on Cresselia it's obvious that a Trick is coming. Cresselia often can take the Trick if it's already setup, then sweep with Stored Power or Moonblast. If Cresselia gets Tricked a Choice Scarf it can use its sheer bulk + rest to pivot into walls like Mantine or Gastrodon to force a stalemate (often leading to PP wars), then it can come in on a (not weak) Knock Off as seen in this replay https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1285280669 .

Status and Phazing
With Rest, Cresselia is no longer stopped by Toxic, and will 6-0 teams dependent on Toxic. Sub Variants also circumvent Toxic, but can't directly switch into a Toxic. Status may be a great way to check Moonlight Cresselia, but not other variants. Phazing only forces Cresselia out for the short-term, which means you still need another way of beating Cresselia.

Hail
Hail is a great way to limit Cresselia, and oftentimes Cresselia is forced to be used as a pivot into Vanilluxe, Aurorus, or Dragalge. Does this Balance Cresselia? It's an effective way of dealing with Cresselia for sure, and something the Cresselia user has to dedicate some team slots to beat.

Escavalier, Silvally-Ghost, Decidueye, Spdef Drapion, Curse Copperajah, and Hail are all great checks to Cresselia, but is this enough counterplay? That's only like 6 mons and 1 archetype that the Cresselia user can mostly cover with 5 teammates. Sure, you can build a team around one of these checks, but:
- Can it still beat Cresselia if your Escavalier/Copperajah get burned by Talonflame?
- Can Drapion make progress vs Mudsdale/Gastrodon?
- Is Silvally-Ghost threatening a sweep or is it just getting chipped by Psyshock repeatedly?
These are specific scenarios but I think the limited counterplay to Cresselia gives it too much leverage. The argument of "Just as you can teambuild to benefit Cresselia's sweeping potential, others can teambuild to inhibit it" isn't really fair when there are so few options to beat Cresselia.

Cresselia Team

https://pokepast.es/122ab74062a83c18 I think this team is a great example of how Cresselia's limited counterplay can be prepared for. It beats most hail teams, and it covers the checks previously mentioned.

 

[The Disco Devil]

Hello, friends. Though I have not achieved reqs yet (working on it, just having a hard time picking up steam), I'd like to offer a neat little duo that might assist with building teams for suspect laddering.

+

Sets

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Def / 144 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Substitute
- Moonlight

Salazzle @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Sludge Wave
- Toxic
- Nasty Plot

Salazzle happens to be an amazing answer to a majority of Cresselia's soft/hard checks. Copperajah/Escavalier are roasted by your Fire STAB of choice, Haze Mantine is forced in and takes a Toxic, none of the tier's available Ghost-types (particularly Decidueye) like taking a hit from Salazzle in general, and so on. You could even try Knock Off over Nasty Plot here to further annoy bulky Pokemon, though I prefer Nasty Plot in most cases. It'll definitely take some fancy footwork to pull off considering Salazzle's fragility, but there's nothing more satisfying than doubling into your Salazzle from Cresselia and putting Escavalier on the back foot (if it even still has feet.) I hope this proves useful to anyone who needs an idea for a suspect run team, or just helpful in general.

 

[Ren-chon]

Probably not gonna be getting reqs this time but still wanted to voice my opinions on the moon dog. First of all though, even as someone whos on the pro-ban side, I have a feeling people are kinda... Exaggerating how easy it is for cress to really sweep? Like dont get me wrong once cress gets a boost and subs its pretty much game most the time, but then again the problem is getting there in the first place. In my opinion I think the broken cress folks are giving WAY too much attention to how easily the dog can sweep once it gets going and just not taking into consideration all the effort it takes to truly get there, and more often than not you dont really need a full counter to PREVENT cress from setting up, although yeah you better pray you got a SD esca once it starts boosting. Think one of the biggest examples of it is my g1 vs tony for ssnl ( https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ru-1284657030-wjp4qw0lwmjwhiybr3actuplbm89zmspw ). Just look at tonys team and try to find any sort of cress counterplay once it sets up. On paper this team just gets absolutely blasted by it, however I had basically no chances to do so since lazzle could come in at any point and threaten to break subs + tox it. People are focusing too much on how to stop cresselia once it sets up while in my personal experience the easier way to stop it is to just not let it set up at all which aint really that hard considering how the meta is shifting (hail, brav, lazzle, ghosts and so on getting more and more common).

...on the other hand, however, some bits of the above paragraph also exemplify why I think cress should go. Pretty much any given game involving a cresselia forces the whole match to revolve around it. The game turns into a "how/when will I sweep with cress" on the users end and "how can I stop it from setting up" on the opponents end and often forces a sort of toxic game state where it feels like the only interaction is between cress and its checks/counters, with the cress user having a huge edge. If your opp relies on, say, an esca, copp, drapion or whatever to stop cress from sweeping theyre pretty much forced to either keep those mons decently healthy or give cress no space to setup. This alone heavily warps teambuilding to a point you either need to fit 2+ cress checks, a hard counter + a check, or some gimmicky ways to lure/handle it that may just not work. Not to mention how different sets have completely different counterplay: subscm stored is, obviously, walled by dark-types; subscm moonblast can bop steels at the cost of being weaker to steels and fires; subsless sets are weaker to status but can just steamroll through teams that rely on more offensive power to handle cress; kee makes it impossible to kill cress w/o a SD dark or SD esca while completely voiding one form of counterplay in the way of poltergeist, but at the cost of often having just one shot at sweeping; and so on and on. By changing just one set or item you completely warp the way you should handle cress and if you lack one specific counterplay to one specific set youre forced into a situation where you must prevent it from setting up at all times.

As much as my last two paragraphs might have sounded contraditory (one defending how hard it is to actually get into a sweeping position with cress, and the other defending how broken it is regardless), it all just boils down to one point: there is sufficient counterplay in the tier for any given set, and using it isnt as simple as set up -> sweep, but the fact cress can find itself into a threatening position with any small space you give it makes it so teambuilding is highly restrictive in a cresselia meta, and so is the way matches involving a cresselia are played. You might look at your team and think "hey, cress cant do shit to it" but then you realize thats because you had to fit like 3 different kinds of counterplay to it, and even then the dog can still sweep if you just make a missplay. All in all, heavily leaning towards ban.

 

[shiloh]

Cresselia has been banned from SS NU!

This thread will remain open for people to discuss thoughts on the metagame, including what new threats pop up due to this ban.

 

[Oathkeeper]

Thank God that this moon duck is gone! It basically forced you to run at least 2 checks for it on your teams like trapper Decidueye, SD Drapion, Trick Mowtom, etc. I'd rather not have to do that now so this is good! Anyway, what benefits from Cress being gone? Let's see

Fighting-types in general, yes. Duck and Champ are the heavy hitters while Passimian will be getting the fancy schmancy Choice Scarf to "replace" Mienshao. The latter two basically have 0 switch-ins now due to their ridiculous coverage. Brave Bird + FI for Sirfetch'd while Machamp gets Bullet Punch + Facade to go with a Guts burn. Like, try switching into these things...........safely, if at all. These mons barely had any breathing room while Cress was around and now that it's gone, they are more dangrous than ever. If it were me, I'd keep my eye on these things for a good while to see how broken they can be. I could throw Virizion in there also tbh, but with Sylveon and Vileplume along with Talonflame and speedier mons like Starmie, a resurgence for Viriz seems ehhh. I want to experiment with it though. Just need to bring something for such issues.

Articuno-G is by no means a "replacement" for Cresselia. Cress had the Levitate ability to help it out while Cuno is not so lucky. Most Cuno will likely be running Boots, but Cress and Cuno share the same issues and that is mostly Steel-types. However, Cuno can pivot on them unlike Cress. Other Psychics are happy too to be sure. Espeon, Starmie, and maybe even stuff like Celebi, Mesprit, and Femdeedee. They were all being shamed in the name of Cresselia and now that the cool kid Duck is gone to RU, they can run the table and check the said Fighting-types above.



I'm sure there's others that benefit from Cress being gone, but these mons stand out to me the most! I hope all of you enjoy a Cresselia-free meta. I know I will ​

 

[Fusion Flare]

Thank God that this moon duck is gone! It basically forced you to run at least 2 checks for it on your teams like trapper Decidueye, SD Drapion, Trick Mowtom, etc. I'd rather not have to do that now so this is good! Anyway, what benefits from Cress being gone? Let's see

Fighting-types in general, yes. Duck and Champ are the heavy hitters while Passimian will be getting the fancy schmancy Choice Scarf to "replace" Mienshao. The latter two basically have 0 switch-ins now due to their ridiculous coverage. Brave Bird + FI for Sirfetch'd while Machamp gets Bullet Punch + Facade to go with a Guts burn. Like, try switching into these things...........safely, if at all. If it were me, I'd keep my eye on these things for a good while to see how broken they can be. I could throw Virizion in there also tbh, but with Sylveon and Vileplume along with Talonflame and speedier mons like Starmie, a resurgence for Viriz seems ehhh. I want to experiment with it though. Just need to bring something for such issues.

Articuno-G is by no means a "replacement" for Cresselia. Cress had the Levitate ability to help it out while Cuno is not so lucky. Most Cuno will likely be running Boots, but Cress and Cuno share the same issues and that is mostly Steel-types. However, Cuno can pivot on them unlike Cress. Other Psychics are happy too to be sure. Espeon, Starmie, and maybe even stuff like Celebi, Mesprit, and Femdeedee. They were all being shamed in the name of Cresselia and now that the cool kid Duck is gone to RU, they can run the table and check the said Fighting-types above.



I'm sure there's others that benefit from Cress being gone, but these mons stand out to me the most! I hope all of you enjoy a Cresselia-free meta. I know I will ​

How you get these clean ass sprites of all the fighters articuno and espeon and then you got RAGGEDY starmie and indeedee with like .2 fps like ????????

Anyways, i mostly lurk and pop in from time to time but the metagame is likely going to free itself up a little, though the fighters will see to its constraint a little.

 

[Pokeslice]

With Cress gone, two demon's are slated to be a problem, more so than others.

For some, this will be controversial, but I firmly believe Hail/Snow Warning are NOT broken. If you were to ask me to vote on the ability, I would say DNB. Unlike Rain/Sun, there are no extra attack boosts or Solar Power making it clearly Drought as a problem in earlier NU. Here, it's simply Arctovish that's the problem. No one will argue that Sandslash-A, Beartic, or Vanilluxe are broken in NU. When it comes to beating/losing to Hail, it all revolves around the fossil. First, the broken abuser was Zolt, and now, it's just Vish. It isn't hail as an archetype.

Next, I have to say BAN THIS DEMON. With a fantastic ability, speed, SpA, and typing, Salazzle is a top tier threat off of NP and more utility sets alone. Realistically, this thing has very few to no real counters, especially over the course of a game as Toxic wears down everything, including Dragalge and Heal Bell-less Diancie, two of the best answers on paper to Salazzle. On top of that, if you face SubTox Salazzle, for some teams, you might as well forfeit once it gets in as it can legitimately 6-0 entire squads. S/O to the guy who rocked SubToxTectDisable Lazzle and smoked me over 50 turns ;__;. I've also heard rumors of Gastro rising, giving this one less answer come April.

Other Mons

Severely overrated at the moment. Don't get me wrong, this is a fantastic breaker on the right team, but it has a ton of issues, notably getting onto the field safely, predicting correctly, getting easily revenge killed, and Head Smash accuracy. I've played around with this mon a bunch, and frankly, it's nowhere near suspect worthy to me. In the tier right now, Head Smash isn't as spammable as it seems, and if you can only bring in TTrum a limited amount of times all while letting most breakers/mons/anything break holes back, it can become a liability more than a threat.

The Duck Knight might be worth looking at in the near future. This thing has no walls and I love it. Once it gets in, you barely need to predict because of its access to Scrappy CC's, and with its fantastic coverage, usual Fighting answers in Plume or Sylveon will drop. Everyone should start spamming this thing now that it's one answer Cress is gone. I think that although all fighters will be good now, this one will be the cream of the crop. FI, a great speed tier, and the ability to make it unwallable push this above the other potentially powerful breaker in Machamp, or even CB Passimian??

 

[Corthius]

It's finally over.

I wanted to add a little bit to the list of winner and loser from the Cresselia-ban (not going to overlap too much with Oathkeepre here; at least I'll try my best.

Winner:

I am so happy that I can finally use Bronzong as my defensive steel type again, as it doesn't have to worry about being set up fodder for Cresselia. Physical defensive Bronzong is really good in my opinion. It's one of the better checks to (Choice Band) Tyrantrum while still being able to check Psychic types like Articuno-Galar. Both Levitate and Heatproof are good options and can be chosen depending on what your team needs more (Heatproof checks Copperajah as most don't carry Earthquake atm).


While I don't think it will get amazing after the Cresselia ban, it will for sure get a lot better as it lost one of the best counters. It will still struggle versus certain cores as it has to predict a lot more with the rise of Guzzlord and now Bronzong. But I think it will have a lot more opportunities to get in as it can revenge-kill Sirfetch'd which claims a kill once it gets in anyway (Not ideal and a little exaggerated). Maybe Calm Mind sets can have their merits?


Similar to Indeedee-F, Raichu-Alola lost a big check as Cresselia resisted its Psychic attacks and was only hit by 70*1.3 Rising Voltage due to its ability Levitate. Not sure how good it will be as pokemon like defensive Celebi, Decidueye and Dhelmise still check it pretty well. Electric Terrain will still get better (There will be another abuser I'll mention later).


The onion shall return. I want Celebi to be good for so long now and we are making the right decisions in banning Sigilyph and now Cresselia. Nasty Plot sets look very potent with Celebi having access to pretty much all the coverage it wants. The only downside it has is the 4MSS. Celebi wants more than four moves most of the time; as an examples: Nasty Plot Celebi wants NP, STABS and then lastly coverage which can vary from what you prefer but it also wants Recover to come in more and having more than one coverage move would be pretty optimal too. It's not the biggest deal but can be frustrating when you picked the wrong move for a certain MU. Aura Sphere is my favorite option, but I've seen Shadow Ball and Earth Power too. Maybe you can even forgot one STAB but I don't really like that idea.


I am a big fan of the theory behind utility Uxie. Uxie has a great utility movepool and can probably act as a decent Sirfetch'd check (Just don't switch into First Impression) and overall physical wall. it won't be a top tier pokemon but probably a fine replacement for the few people that actually liked support Cresselia and are willing to trade bulk and recovery for even more utility, pivoting and rocks. Rest + clearic support doesn't sound too bad either. I guess time will tell and maybe people will pick up on it a little bit.
Im not including Mesprit here as it is similar to Uxie but only more offensive; shouldn't matter too much as a bulky utility mon imo.


I know two people above me already mentioned this but it will be so good that I simply can not stress enough how good it will be. Sirfetch'd lost its only counter we have. CC/Knock/BB/FI is ridiculously good and blows past everything. Scrappy only increases its breaking power and doesn't even make physically defensive Ghost types a safer answer (even Cofagrigus takes like 60%min from Close Comat). Brave Bird hits all the usual Fighting resists like Vileplume, Talonflame and Sylveon for really big damage which leaves Sirfetch'd with only checks to the move it might click.
I echo Pokeslice here, use it, you won't regret it.


The second terrain abuser that benefits from Cresselia being gone and a fun lategame sweeper on top of that. With access to decent coverage it can now sweep many unprepared teams. Sirfetch'd should decrease the usage of Vileplume as the Fighting check on most teams which also benefits Hitmonlee as it would not be able to get past that (I know it gets Blaze Kick but that move is dodo). Overall this pokemon should benefit from the Cresselia ban, time will tell how much.

So basically every Fighting type that was slower than Cresselia or not strong enough to break it even with two hits (looking at you Virizion) gets a lot better now; to name a few: Toxicroak, Gallade and Passimian all are better now. I'll safe my time since I would say pretty much the same about all of them.


Being a Dark type that didn't beat Cresselia was not ideal. But now with that being gone, Guzzlord has a way better time versus pokemon like Articuno-Galar and even Indeedee-F even tho it carries Fairy coverage too (Most are choiced so you can scout with a defensive steel etc). It is a very potent pokemon that only got better. It is one of my favorite Ghost resists atm and a good choice as a defensive Dragon type too. Oh and Knock Off is a broken move so having access to that is always useful.


Loser:

I know a lot of people already disliked this pokemon because it is rather weak w/o set up and Cresselia leaving was its biggest niche for sure. But is it still worth to use after Cresselia got banned? I would say yes. It can still check Grass types like Decidueye and getting a Knock Off onto Mudsdale and Co is still valuable. Toxic Spikes aren't its greatest tool in my opinion; Dragalge does a better job at that and I would rather use Toxic to badly poison incoming Diancie and Mudsdale. Taunt Toxic doesn't sound all that bad, but I wouldn't call it anywhere top tier.


Ok while I have to agree, Choice Band Escavalier has no switchin, as a defensive steel I always found it lackluster outside the Cresselia MU. Most notably versus pokemon like Articuno-Galar and Psychic and Fairy types that could run Fire coverage. If Im not using Choice Band, Im probably better of using Copperajah. Both have amazing coverage and while the lack of Knock Off versus threats like Talon does hurt, you can always run Rock coverage on Copper too if you feel like it.
Escavalier will remain as one of the best slow breaker in the tier but defensively I find myself thinking it's not as good as other options that give you more. Maybe I overestimate the Fire weakness but it really hurts running into Mystical Fire Sylveon when you don't run Talonflame on the same team.

Overall most pokemon actually benefit from this ban at least in the way that they don't have to worry as much about letting Cresselia in for free and giving it free set up.
This ban will bring fresh air into the NU meta and Im looking forward to explore the hidden gems that can now shine.
Feel free to let me know if you agree/disagree or want to add any pokemon to the list!

 

[Finchinator]

Passimian has been good since the Mienshao ban and imo it is even better now. Other Fighters have more flash and perhaps even more firepower, but the combination of U-turn and respectable strength/speed go a long way for the king of SM NU. I feel we will see a bit of a resurgence in teams built around lures + Fighters in general with one less obstacle being prevalent in the tier now.

Guzzlord is also a pain to switch into and no longer has a common Moonblast user to account for, making it significantly more viable — especially with there being one less reason to use Drapion.

Finally, I believe any Ice resist is clutch right now and Escavalier will be fine.

 

[xerovis]

A lot has been covered already above. I guess my main thing to touch on is just that this is a hugely positive change on the freedom of team-building for us right now. The meta was at a point where "cress answer" was mandatory for a while there, and generally had to be rolled into another package such as into an overall bulky steel like Escav or Copper, or putting trick onto a scarfer like Rotom-mow, among various other creative checking options, and so building now will feel a lot better until any new problems surface. I think this was the last necessary ban in a cascade of bans/suspects that have honed the tier down to being quite balanced and fun so I'm really happy about it!

To some of the points above,


While I agree with Pokeslice that hail is not particularly broken, I do think Arctovish could be even more dangerous than it already is if we do end up losing Gastrodon, which would leave basically just Vaporeon standing in its way. I still think there would be some offensive counterplay especially since Adamant Arctovish's speed still leaves something to be desired and can be beaten by our premier mienshao replacement scarfer Passimian.


Another mon that would be even more rampant if we lose Gastrodon, for all the reasons already mentioned. Defensive counterplay is often limited especially against the headache-inducing subtoxtect, but Salazzle is Still a frail mon with offensive counterplay even outside of scarfers, and the popularity of Talonflame and Inteleon do make it a little less scary, since its speed tier is the thing that makes it the most oppressive whether subtox or offensive.


Everyone has done a good job of stating and exemplifying why they'll need to be monitored over the next little while. We may also soon be losing a soft-check in Golisopod (I hope not but maybe) to RU. Furthermore a lot of the psychics mentioned in the discussions above that are now more free to use since Cress is gone, are easily Rkilled by sirfetch'd's First Impression, outsped by Passimian to be knocked/cleaned, and may not be able to OHKO Machamp without some set changes(for example Starmie often finds its moveset lacking a psychic stab in favour of coverage for things like Mantine, while screens Espeon lacks the power to reliably OHKO it).


I agree with Corthius and Finch that Escavalier will still have solid usage/place in the NU metagame. Will be interesting to see if a spike in Guzzlord usage causes the cress-ban fall in Drapion usage to rebound.



These are all extremely solid choices and have been for a while now each having various viable and useful sets, I'll be surprised if we don't get our hands on em in the next shift.

Without rambling much more on stuff that has already been covered, wanted to bring up ZU mons for discussion.

Are there PU or lower mons that you are interested in exploring more?

Two mons I love that I've been pondering on :


I'm sort of curious if this thing could rise back up in popularity. There have been many metas where croak can run rampant, however there are a lot of fast psychics that are now free. That being said maybe due to those options, potentially the SD sucker punch set might be more usable now than the usually overpowered NP set. Toxicroak has a unique stab advantage versus the main fighting check now (Sylveon) and the SD set can also muscle past Vileplume's strength saps while resisting its hits. Inteleon is forced to rely on ice beam against it (+2 sucker kills Intel anyway), and it can check Arctovish that is locked into Fishious and set up on it. Two offensive issues for it will still be Talonflame who only takes 75% from +2 orb sucker, and Salazzle who can roast it to a crisp while resisting its stabs.


I love Centi but am quite conflicted on using it currently. It's in a weird spot where it is great against half of the tier (see: Bronzong, Copper, Escav, Sylveon, Comfey, Celebi, Decidueye, Dhelmise, Espeon, Vileplume, Rotom-Mow, Zoroark) but really terrible against the other half (see: Arcanine, Blastoise, Diancie, Inteleon, Starmie, Dragalge, Tyrantrum, Talonflame). It could be a rewarding choice with the right team support but seems like it will be challenging to build with.

These are just two I've been scratching my head about. What are some PU or lower mons that haven't been mentioned that you guys think could have a place or are curious about?

 

[Pokeslice]

I've been thinking a lot about this mon recently, especially with the recent Cress ban, and I want to know what people think of it right now.

METAGAME PROS WITH CRESS GONE

• Very hard to switch into​
• Comes in on tier titan Copperajah for free​
• Great defensive typing, especially in light of the new Psychic and Ghost spam​
• Multiple viable sets​
• Dumbest HP stat since Blissey​
• Cress gone means one less Moonblast​

METAGAME CONS WITH CRESS GONE

• Fighting-types: SOOO many Fighting types now exist
• A lot of Psychics run Fairy or Fighting coverage
• Can struggle against more offensive teams occasionally which are more common with Cress gone
• Most likely going to be less Decid/Other Ghosts for this to abuse now

Looking at this, I really can't decide if Guzzlord gets way better now or worse. I believe the pro's far outweigh the cons when it comes to Guzzlord, but I think the recent Cress ban has made it worse. The huge increase in Fighting-types really puts a damper on the Guzz hype train. What do you guys think?

 

[Danny]

Hey guys dani here, just wanted to touch on a few meta trends I’ve noticed in the past week or so without cress being here. The meta has changed only slightly, but these changes have been significant in the way the tier is played. I’m going to start off promoting some mons that I think should be used much more, and then point out the strange developments in our tier.

Great Poison Types:



Garb and Weezing have become our premier fighting resists, solely because they are the only mons that can reliably defend against CB Sirfetch’d.

Garb has the added benefit of being able to lay spikes, which is always a plus because it allows you to compress another role into what is usually just a fight resist.

Weezing on the other hand has the benefit of Toxic Spikes, and it also can WoW Copperajah and Escavalier.

I personally love using them both, and although Weezing is much better in my opinion because of its Neutralizing Gas ability, I prefer using Gabodor because of its unique ability to just trade with a scary physical attacker due to Rocky Helmet, Pain Split, and Aftermath damage. Please use these more!

Meta Trends I’ve noticed:

So I’m only going to touch on mons that from what I’ve seen, haveeither dropped off the face of the map or are extremely underutilized. Some of these mons aren’t used for a reason, and others are just being criminally ignored.


This might seem weird, but in about 50 ladder and testing games with viable players, I’ve seen very few Salazzle. I think the reason for this is pretty straightforward, everyone and their mom is using Vape or hail, so why waste a slot on a mon that gets stonewalled or overran easily. That being said, I believe it should be used a lot more, and it has a ton of utility in the Cress-less meta.


This guy I’m a little less sure of the reasoning here. It still has a monstrous attack stat, great revenge killing potential, and Spikes to top it all off. I think people kind of just forgot it exists, because if that isn’t the case I don’t see why it isn’t used more.


Dude. I keep prepping for this mon on my teams, and then don’t see a single Golurk. I don’t get why either, Poltergeist and Earthquake is great STAB coverage, and if you’re really scared of the rise of no item mons like Rotom-Mow or Flygon, just throw Ice punch as your last move. Extremely under used, and please start using it(so I can justify prepping so much for it).


Both of these mons encompass the same role, defensive fighting resists who lose to Sirfetch’d and Machamp. They are outclassed by the poisons mentioned above, and Sylveon is outclassed by Vape as a Wish Passer. They both kind of suck right now for those reasons, and I wouldn’t be caught dead using them unless it’s a niche Specs Sylveon set(with spikes support that seems kind of cool ngl).

Anyways these are just a few trends that I’ve noticed while playing, and I hope that you guys either start using the threats that I mentioned here, or stop using plume or sylv.

PS: Pokeslice how dare you question guzz, he will never be bad ;)

 

[The Gunner]

I'm pretty upset with the state of the meta right now. All the Cresselia ban did was make fighting types better and increase the number of already broken mons. Instead, more attention should have been placed on hail. Half the people who received reqs spammed hail on ladder. Is it actually easy to use or is it because Arctovish is literally uncheckable? I don't see a reason not to run Vaporeon on all my teams. Looking at my teambuilder, what exactly can switch in to Arctovish that also isn't destroyed by Freeze Dry? I suppose Avalugg - if it doesn't get crit. There's also shitty Toxicroak which is a meme switch-in and relies entirely on opponent clicking Fishious Rend. Hail is brainless and consistently good vs most teams. There's definitely an issue when multiple users use the same team with their own techs and are successful with ease. It is so restricting on teambuilding and should've been addressed a long time ago. I'm more bothered by the fact that people will be able to spam Arctovish in the NU Open too and ruin quality of games. If there's ever a time to quickban something, it is right now. Banning Arctovish fixes all the issues with hail because Sandslash doesn't even come close. I urge the council to actually take a look at what's the biggest issue right now instead of pursuing a Salazzle suspect or whatever

 

[Expulso]

I completely agree with the above statement, hail farms wins with crazy consistency and is pretty much mandating a Vaporeon (not gastro, which drops to freeze dry, or Golis, which does like 40 with FI). The current way most teams handle it is having 2 water resists, such as starmie + rotom-mow, which are indeed able to barely take a cb fishious rend after 2 rounds of sr. although even that damage does still soften them up for the other hail sweeper, usually slash-a, hail could also adapt by running non-choiced items on arctovish, which i feel would be extremely effective due to the fact that teams are already barely hanging on against it

hail isnt an automatic win but a well-constructed hail team feels like it always has the advantage, your opponent has to panic to not get slaughtered by arctovish (if they dont use vapo) which means they cant plan around your other threats. i used hail with sd toxicroak for cress reqs, and teams were so hard-pressed to stop arctovish that it opened up a lot of room for toxicroak to sweep the few times arcto could be stopped.

Like enzo above, I think addressing hail with an Arctovish suspect/ban would be the best thing for this meta right now.

 

[TailGlowVM]

I'm pretty upset with the state of the meta right now. All the Cresselia ban did was make fighting types better and increase the number of already broken mons. Instead, more attention should have been placed on hail. Literally half the people who received reqs spammed hail on ladder. Is it actually easy to use or is it because Arctovish is literally uncheckable? I don't see a reason not to run Vaporeon on all my teams. Looking at my teambuilder, what exactly can switch in to Arctovish that also doesn't get destroyed by Freeze Dry? I suppose Avalugg if it doesn't get crit. There's also shitty Toxicroak which is a meme switch-in and relies entirely on opponent clicking Fishious Rend. Hail is brainless and consistently good vs most teams. There's definitely an issue when multiple users use the same team with their own techs and are successful with ease. It is so restricting on teambuilding and should've been addressed a long time ago. I'm more bothered by the fact that people will be able to spam Arctovish in the NU umOpen too and ruin quality of games. If there's ever a time to quickban something, it is right now. Banning Arctovish fixes all the issues with hail because Sandslash doesn't even come close. I urge the council to actually take a look at what's the biggest issue right now instead of pursuing a Salazzle suspect or whatever

I think it's always best to wait some time for the metagame to settle down after a suspect, to see how it develops. In this case, a suspect shouldn't be done until after the April tier shift, either, as that could shake up the metagame even more. If last month's statistics are anything to go by, NU is likely to gain Entei and Glastrier, and lose Roserade (though it isn't great right now). Other stuff like Golisopod and Gastrodon could potentially go. This could potentially result in an even more unbalanced tier, but you couldn't suspect something important, say, Entei, or maybe Starmie becomes broken without Gastrodon (purely random examples to show the point, not saying they will definitely be broken), because there was an ongoing Arctovish test, which now looks irrelevant compared to them, and then you would likely wait at least a week before doing another one.

I also believe you shouldn't ban too many things at once, as often a broken Pokemon makes something else seem broken (See National Dex OU, which banned Ash-Greninja, Galarian Darmanitan, Urshifu-S, Mega Metagross, and Tornadus-T all at once. They later found Ash-Gren was manageable without the other Pokemon in the tier, as checks to it like Tapu Fini were often obliged to check some of the other Pokemon as well, and could be overwhelmed if one of them was with Greninja.)

 

[Mariannabelle]

I don't see a reason not to run Vaporeon on all my teams.

Putting aside the Cress suspect for a second, I strongly agree with this. I spent DAYS, man, DAYS, trying all sorts of bizarre memery trying to prepare for Snow Warning teams, with everything from Gigalith to Lapras to Absorb Arctovish (usually more than one per team). Something crazy like ten failed runs because I kept getting overrun by Snow Warning teams.
Add Vapes, go 29-1. One try. I didn't magically become better at the game by adding Vaporeon. I think you know what I'm trying to say here.

But for real, can we actually talk about Snow Warning for a second instead of, for some reason, assuming that it's balanced because it's 'not as good as broken as Drought or Drizzle'?
(1) The Aurora Veil problem could have been solved by just banning Snow Warning, but ok. It's understandable if one considers Veil teams broken and Hail teams balanced (splitting hairs imo, considering they're all Snow Warning teams), but that clearly wasn't the case, now was it?
(2) Arctozolt problem likewise could have been solved by just banning Snow Warning. It woulda been understandable if Arctozolt was the broken element and not instant Hail, but now we're moving onto Arctovish so that doesn't seem to have been the case either.
(3) Snow Warning teams with Arctovish are *clearly* still an issue.

Three times, man. Three times things go to hell because of archetypes that don't function without Snow Warning.

I say 'Snow Warning teams' because frankly, Arctovish on paper shouldn't be that hard to deal with. The problem is that every Arctovish check is ludicrously easy for a Snow Warning team to build around. Bulky Waters that aren't just dying to Freeze Dry lose to the Decidueye. Scarf Fighting types are easily covered by a Poison like Dragalge. Arctovish gets extra chip it kinda needs because Snow Warning teams can set Pebbles and Hail with one mon. Arctovish being hoarded a whole game because the hail can stay up for ever and ever amen.

Yeah, sure, you could balance Snow Warning once and for all by banning Arctovish, just like Snow Warning was balanced once and for all after the Veil ban, and like it was balanced after the Arctozolt ban.

But like, for real. What's the point? Ban ban ban, and for what exactly? Preserving ZU icespam teams' place in the NU ladder? Keep Blizzard Vanilluxe usable for ZU because a tier falls apart if they have to use Ice Beam? Someone new to the tier asks 'what's so broken about these critters' and you realize that a chunk of bans is just, as of so far, futile attempts to preserve a balanced Snow Warning? When is the line gonna be drawn? When is it time to say 'Snow Warning was broken all along'?

Yeah, I'll admit it. I'm biased asf, because I think Arctovish outside of Snow Warning is still a totally rad mon. Soft spot for it. You ever run Substitute Arctovish? That stuff cracks me up, and I think it's a crying shame that mons with solid niches outside of hail, like Arctozolt and Arctovish, get put on the chopping block in favor of an ability that keeps rearing its ugly head to bite us over and over again.

 

[Finchinator]

Posting mainly for the sake of transparency as I am on council and have been quiet for a bit. Do note that this is just my individual opinion.

I was not super supportive of the Cresselia ban firsthand, but I understood why it happened and I was glad it did given the sheer amount of people who voted for it. I did not get reqs due to other commitments IRL and on here either, so complaining would absolutely not be acceptable. I will actively try to get reqs next time fwiw, so don't worry about that.

I do feel like the metagame has not progressed as we would have liked it to in the aftermath. The tier may have opened itself up to more offensive options only to get mowed over by a largely anti-offensive playstyle that is quite infamous in tiering discussions right now. Hail, which started as more of a fringe style began to borderline centralize ladder play -- this even started prior to/during the Cresselia suspect, and other cheesier exploits are likely right around the corner I would argue. I think there is a lot of untapped potential there at least. I think that under normal circumstances -- which these are not (more on this next), I would support a council vote on both Arctovish and Snow Warning in order to find the best solution and likely solve the current problems we are facing. I also want to note that while I am in favor of looking into Salazzle, there is a time and place for everything -- now is not the time at all.

To elaborate on this and why these circumstances are not normal, we are getting months of shifts in less than a week, so my personal opinion is that we should sit tight until the shifts happen, but then act a bit more liberally than normal -- be it through council action directly or even briefer/prompter suspects than normal and potentially even a survey to help back this if others support that, it will help us find a healthy balance for the majority of NU Open and general play, which people seem to be upset about right now.

I am glad that people are using this thread to discuss their frustrations with the metagame and I hope this continues moving forward -- we all benefit from more activity and enthusiasm about the tier. I am sorry the metagame state is not ideal right now for some of you, but I do believe exciting days are ahead with NU Open, tiering shifts, etc.

 

[Hera]

I've been watching this conversation about Snow Warning and Arctovish with a piqued interest, as what happens here will most likely impact my most played tier (PU). I'm not the most well versed on the NU meta, but after messing around with Hail and more standard structures, I think I can offer a unique viewpoint on this whole debacle.

Firstly, I think the countermeasures of Hail, specifically how often there are seen as "Vape or bust", are very understated and readily available to the player when teambuilding. One of the main flaws I see when people try to beat Hail is that they think about how to beat it defensively rather than offensively. Yes, Vish and Ada/Jolly Sandslash-A are faster than the majority of the meta, but that doesn't mean there's 0 offensive counterplay. Hitmontop in PU is notorious for 6-0ing most Hail teams because of Techinchan Mach Punch. Currently, Hail teams have a structure of 2 Hail setters + Vish and Sandslash-A + Poison-type + Decid, and with Earthquake and Triple Axel in its movepool, I see no reason why Hitmontop wouldn't go ham barring structure changes to beat this. Scarf Heliolisk, Togedemaru, and even your own Sandslash-A are all underused offensive options that can heavily pressure Hail, and while the viability of these mons is disputable, I think if these options rise in usage, then it shows that the meta is adapting to Hail. Even if we restrict ourselves to solely NU by usage Pokemon, Flygon is currently an extremely viable and popular Pokemon, so slapping a Scarf on it shouldn't be that hard. Scarf Zoroark could be seen as pushing it and possibly dedicating too much to beat one playstyle, but one mon running a fringe option to beat more mons than it usually would doesn't sound like that to me. Rocks also goes a long way to limiting Hail as a whole, as well as defensive cores such as Vape + Escav + Fire-type (usually Talonflame but I've seen Arcanine) in limiting the amount of openings Hail gets while still not losing much against common meta threats such as Tyrantrum, Salazzle, and Copperjah.

Ultimately, I see Hail as a reaction to the meta and moreso a symptom than a cause. If you look at the most common Scarfers even before the Cress ban (Passimian, Rotom-Mow, Tyrantrum) as well as common defensive cores (Steel-type + Mantine, anything with Mudsdale), you can see that Hail can easily take advantage of these mons or just doesn't care about them. This is mainly with Vish and Hail in general is so strong; they can abuse the way building is done in order to take advantage of common trends. Often, this means relying on otherwise uncommon trends in order to keep Hail in check, since it is a kinda gimmicky HO. This can usually been seen as overcentralizing or too much (relying on otherwise bad mons to check something is dumb). But I think it shows that there are greater problems in the meta that Hail can simply abuse, such as similar defensive cores, overcentralization around a few mons, or a general weakness to teams that spam breakers and hope for the best. Again, I don't know much about the meta and these are all just assumptions. I am not saying that the NU meta is bad. What I am saying is that Hail is only a symptom of possible problems, and if more time is spent instead of knee-jerking to Hail being the problem, then I think these possible problems can be discovered, pinpointed, and dealt with for a better meta instead of kicking Hail/Vish out only to realize a month later not much has changed and another random breaker has become super good at tearing apart teams (this has happened before).

If something were to be dealt with, I would say Vish. I understand the frustration of seeing something constantly saved only to have it be a problem later on, and Snow Warning being gone wouldn't have that much impact on the NU tier (it would have a much bigger impact on PU and ZU, but I don't think tiers account for lower tiers when tiering). However, whenever I see a Hail team, I don't think of it as a Hail team, but rather a Vish team that just so happens to use Hail. This is why the Hail teams have the structure they do: they are all made to ensure Vish gets as many openings as possible while abusing the few switch-ins Vish does have. I find it hard to believe Sandslash-A would start 6-0ing teams with Vish gone, and it's really more of a secondary abuser behind Vish anyway.

tl;dr Hail has enough options that can beat it and is more of a symptom of possibly bigger issues that may need to be looked at.