Metagame NP: NU Stage 6.1 - I Was Born (A Unicorn) [Glastrier Unbanned]

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Hey everyone, the NU council has come to a decision on what we are doing with regards to the newest drops to the NU Tier in Entei and Glastrier. We decided to have a council vote on both, as we have NU Open Round 2 coming up soon and we have come to a decision. This is how the vote turned out:
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As a result of this Entei and Glastrier are both banned from the NU tier effective immediately.

A quick TLDR before we jump into it: Entei and Glastrier were both banned via council vote. However, the council only voted on Glastrier with the caveat that it will be publicly tested right after the council vote. This means that we are having a test on Glastrier right now!

:ss/entei:
In the short time Entei has graced NU, it has already shown itself to be one of the most threatening Pokemon in the metagame. With great stats across the board, a unique stab move that cripples its checks, and a deep movepool that allows for dangerous set variety, it is too much for the metagame to handle.

The primary set you see is currently Choice Band, which carries the dangerous STAB move Sacred Fire. This move enables it to cripple common switch-ins such as Diancie and Flygon with a burn, rendering them ineffective as checks. Entei also has a host of coverage moves to hit its checks such as Stone Edge and Iron Head, as well as Extreme Speed to revenge kill Pokemon faster than it. Together this makes Choice Band Entei very tough to check as it becomes a guessing game on what move it will lock into, and even if you manage to play around the coverage correctly, there is still a 50% chance you end up getting burnt by Sacred Fire whenever it decides to click it.

The other set that also works very well is SubCM, Vintei. This set takes advantage of Entei’s bulk and ability Pressure to outlast its checks with Protect and Substitute, while simultaneously setting up Calm Mind boosts, enabling it to rip through teams. Pressure in particular is key for this set to function, as it can quickly leave checks to it scrambling to keep it in check long term due to losing PP on moves that can break its sub. Examples of this can be seen with moves like Flygons Earthquake, or Vaporeons Scald, both of which can be stalled out by the combination of Pressure and the cycling of Sub and Protect. Lava Plume is the STAB of choice, as once again, this move can burn common checks and allow Entei to set up on Pokemon that it normally wouldn’t be able to.

While the two sets are threatening on their own, the fact they hold almost no checks and counters in common makes it over-centralizing to build around, which is one of the primary reasons this ban was unanimous. This can be seen by the fact that most bulky waters are fairly good checks to the Choice Band set, however, they can all face issues against Calm Mind unless they run techs like Haze on Vaporeon.

:ss/glastrier:
At this point you may be questioning, "Meri, the council voted to ban Glastrier, yet the title shows that this is a suspect thread, whats up with that?". Well the answer to that comes from the fact that when the council voted on Glastrier, we all voted with the key note that we would be having an immediate public retest on Glastrier directly after the vote, which is what this thread is! There are a few reasons we decided to do it this way. The first of which is the fact that as a council most of us feel that we have not had time to effectively judge Glastrier in the time it has been here. We've only been able to use it for a short time, and we want to make sure that we get the decision right at the end of the day. With NU Open starting its next round soon, we want to give the public a chance to vote on this mon that we see as more borderline, while at the same time not having a potentially broken mon being used in the early rounds of the tournament. This brings us to the solution that we are proceeding with, a council ban followed by a suspect test! Now lets move onto the reasons on why Glastrier is being tested.

:glastrier:

Glastrier is truly one of the more unique mons that has made its way down to NU this generation. It has amazing stats that center around its bulk and attack and a good set of physical coverage moves, which allow it to find its way to the top of the tier.

There have been a few sets that have already popped up, some more threatening than the others, with the first one being Sub ID. This set allows Glastrier to take advantage of its bulk and weight, using Substitute on common Pokemon such as Vaporeon and Copperajah without the chance of the Substitute breaking. This allows it to set up Iron Defense boosts safely, which can make Glastrier really hard to kill for fatter teams, while allowing it to break the opposing player’s team with Body Press. This can also allow it to eat offensive hits behind a sub from more common mons on offense like Flygon and Talonflame, allowing it to set up more Iron Defenses or just get more kills. The Substitute can also allow it to avoid status like Toxic or Burn, which would otherwise be able to chip it down.

Other sets also exist, and are able to be just as threatening. For example, Swords Dance sets take advantage of its stellar bulk and base 145 attack stat, as well as Chilling Neigh, to break through teams. This set has access to dangerous coverage such as Close Combat, High Horsepower, and Throat Chop to break through common Pokemon in the metagame. Its bulk also makes it hard to revenge kill, as most of the tier struggles to do much damage to it even with a super effective move. This can be highlighted with the fact that from full it can even eat a Close Combat from Leek Sirfetch'd, or on the special side it can easily eat unboosted fire moves from Salazzle.

It’s bulk is something else for an Offensive Mon in NU, hosting defensive stats that rival that of Cresselia, a Pokemon that we previously banned for setting up on too many Pokemon due to its phenomenal bulk. However, its mono-Ice typing makes for many weaknesses to common breakers such as Sirfetch’d, Salazzle, and Tyrantrum, making it much less effective unless behind a Substitute. This typing also forces Glastrier to either run Heavy-Duty Boots or take 25% from rocks, which is challenging for a defensive Pokemon without recovery. This puts its substitute sets in a weird situation as well, where running Boots would allow it to come in more easily throughout the game and mean teams do not have to worry about hazards being up, but it loses key leftovers recovery meaning it would have to rely on wish passes from partners in order to stay healthy. Most teams decide to give up the boots, which forces them to run more sturdy hazard control, which is a luxury in a more boots heavy metagame.

It is also a very good breaker against common defensive cores, with its base 145 attack, coverage, and set-up moves making it nearly impossible to handle with just 1 Pokemon. Its ability also allows it to snowball against teams, boosting its attack for every kill its able to get. However, mono-Ice typing also holds it back in this regard, as it cannot hit common defensive Pokemon such as Vaporeon or Bronzong without coverage. It is also very slow, only hitting base 30 speed, which allows most Pokemon and all other breakers to outspeed it if its running any amount of bulk.


Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice. **It is now 79 GXE**
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  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NUGT. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NUGT meri
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.​
  • We will be using the regular NU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.​
  • The aspects being tested, Glastrier, will be allowed on the ladder.​
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.​
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.​
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until April 25th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.​
 
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Bruh another day another bans for existence....

Entei has many checks and counters. First example? Its typing allows Flygon to resist 3 of 4 enteis attacks even with choice band. Flygon can set up ddance and send regards to enteis mother hitting hard entei.
Same goes to Glastriel. Bronzong's high defensive bulk allows it to resist many of Glastriel's moves even after swords dance. Bronzong can also toxic stall it and restore its HP with Leftoverss and Rest
 

Rabia

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Bruh another day another bans for existence....

Entei has many checks and counters. First example? Its typing allows Flygon to resist 3 of 4 enteis attacks even with choice band. Flygon can set up ddance and send regards to enteis mother hitting hard entei.
Same goes to Glastriel. Bronzong's high defensive bulk allows it to resist many of Glastriel's moves even after swords dance. Bronzong can also toxic stall it and restore its HP with Leftoverss and Rest
I would love to see a post that mentions more than one very average check to Entei if you're going to say it's fine. The fact of the matter is Entei is not as easy to answer as you portray. Choice Band sets? Sure, the council generally agrees that Choice Band Entei, while super strong, is perhaps manageable. Despite Entei's incredible power, many of us still felt that Choice Band sets could be managed well enough through smart pivoting, which in turn could force entry hazards damage onto Entei. This obviously isn't to say that Choice Band wasn't still viewed as super strong, though; Entei's coverage left it with what, just Flygon as a consistent check? This also assumes Entei doesn't burn it with Sacred Fire relatively early on, which cripples Flygon's ability to do much of anything from there.

The main set that bothered us was Vintei. Vintei simply lacked cohesive answers because of how safely you could scout and stall out potential answers like Tyrantrum, Flygon, Vaporeon, and more. While it wasn't an immediate offensive threat, its ability to win the war of attrition against essentially anything pushed it over the edge for all of us. You could similarly fish for burns with Lava Plume against certain answers and stall out other ones unless up against say, Roar Vaporeon. The combination of these two sets also mandated Heal Bell support onto almost every team; while this isn't a hard ask given how good Vaporeon, Diancie, and Sylveon are, it further demonstrates how restrictive Entei was as a whole.
 
Bruh another day another bans for existence....

Entei has many checks and counters. First example? Its typing allows Flygon to resist 3 of 4 enteis attacks even with choice band. Flygon can set up ddance and send regards to enteis mother hitting hard entei.
Same goes to Glastriel. Bronzong's high defensive bulk allows it to resist many of Glastriel's moves even after swords dance. Bronzong can also toxic stall it and restore its HP with Leftoverss and Rest
although I personally disagree with the bans, and there is some truth to what you say; Flygon cannot Dragon Dance against Entei due to fearing burn, and Offensive sets can lose to repeated chip plus Extreme Speed

252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 158-187 (52.4 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Glastrier also has many walls, although
Glastrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 224 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Body Press
- Icicle Spear
- Iron Defense
- Rest

Glastrier @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear
- Crunch
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
beat Bronzong very handily, and Glastrier is a Pokemon that really has no true check, due to its stats and versatility
 
Bruh another day another bans for existence....

Entei has many checks and counters. First example? Its typing allows Flygon to resist 3 of 4 enteis attacks even with choice band. Flygon can set up ddance and send regards to enteis mother hitting hard entei.
Same goes to Glastriel. Bronzong's high defensive bulk allows it to resist many of Glastriel's moves even after swords dance. Bronzong can also toxic stall it and restore its HP with Leftoverss and Rest
No dumbass, ever heard of Sacred Fire's 50% burn? Did you know Flygon commonly uses physical moves on the Dragon Dance set? I bet you did not know this, but Burn halves the power of physical moves!

+2 252+ Atk Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 274-323 (81 - 95.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Glastrier Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong: 366-432 (108.2 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Funny how you mentioned Bronzong without calcing Swords Dance before that.
 
Hey all, so this is my first metagame post, and I'd thought I'd share my thoughts on Entei.

Entei honestly felt like it had no real counters. Choice Band Entei was pretty annoying and can stop checks like Flygon and Diancie with the 50% chance to burn from Sacred Fire. Vintei, was the most annoying Entei set in my opinion. Once it even gets up a Substitute, you're pretty much done for. Pokémon slower than Entei can't cripple it with status like Toxic. Even Pokémon faster than the Vintei set had trouble. Faster Pokémon like Starmie can get PP stalled if you let Entei get up a Substitute. You would have to use a turn to get rid of Entei's substitute, but Entei could put up another Substitute on that same turn once its substitute fades. It also uses Protect to annoy Pokémon trying to get rid of the sub, and it doesn't help that Entei makes opposing Pokémon lose their PP faster with its ability Pressure. So, to conclude my thoughts on Entei, Entei felt like it had no real counters, as it had its ways around its checks, such as the Vintei set and Sacred Fire's 50% burn chance.
 

Mariannabelle

chill guy
someone knows where we can post our reqs please?
As usual, a separate voter ID thread will be opened closer to the end of the test.

---

Good riddance on Entei.

As far as Glastrier goes, I think it's fairly comparable to Escavalier. Big hits, big bulk, and slow. While Glastrier outdoes Escavalier in all three, Glastrier is still very slow and the bulk is somewhat compromised by a very bad defensive typing that leaves it vulnerable to most opposing wallbreakers' STAB or common coverage. It also struggles against bulky waters, notably (Colbur?) Jellicent. Mantine will take any hit, including Band Icicle Crash (it can just Roost afterwards and further Crashes will be resisted). Personally, I think broken wallbreakers are the ones that OHKO over half the tier with a single move on Scarf *cough cough Tyrantrum*, not the ones that are so slow they have to assume a prior attack from a big majority of the tier, with an atrocious Ice typing.

I absolutely disagree that Glastrier is comparable to Cresselia. I think Glastrier's Substitute sets are overhyped. While Glastrier can check the box for sheer bulk, the Speed and typing make an extremely notable difference.
-Glastrier's Substitute can take Scalds, but it can't set up Substitute on Scald users without risking a Toxic or Scald burn beforehand. Cresselia had the speed to just Sub up before the opposing move came out.
-Cresselia's typing and stuff like Kee Berry let it get away with murder, because the kinds of moves you attack Psychics with (Knock Off, Poltergeist, etc.) were ineffective. Glastrier has no such luck, and literally every opposing wallbreaker* can deal huge damage to Glastrier with their STAB or strong coverage, to the point that Glastrier can't really pull anything off besides trade KOs half the time, assuming it lives the opposing CC or whatever.
-No recovery, either.


Anyway, that's just the sense I've been getting from Glastrier up until now. I could change my mind if Trick Room teams start tearing everyone up, but I won't hold my breath.
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
:ss/glastrier:

I'm inclined to agree with Mari here. This mon is definitely good, but I don't know at the moment if I could vote ban on it. To me, a lot of the problems come down to its middling speed and bad defensive typing. So far, I've been able to consistently stop it through offensively wearing it down with a multitude of breakers and faster Toxic's and Wisp's that it really hates to take. On top of that, it isn't necessarily impossible to switch into either, struggling to break through our bulky waters and defensive cores, even if CB. I've also utilized Taunt a ton recently on multiple different teams and mons, especially my boy Jellicent, which has really kept Sub or ID sets in check. The upside to Glastrier of course is huge, with a myriad of different sets and the stats to go boot, I've seen it demolish fatter teams lacking Haze, Roar, or Taunt, all of which can potentially fold to the right set. It can even force a 1 for 1 trade consistently when facing a more offensive team.

PROS
  • Look at those stats
  • Multiple viable sets including, but not limited too, CB, Sub SD/ID, or SD 3 Atk
  • Often can force a 1 for 1 trade
  • Can eat fatter teams with a Sub set
CONS
  • Wayyy too slow - Often taking chip/Status
  • Bad defensive typing
  • Struggles versus bulky waters, especially CB

Atm, I feel like it's fine, although I'm going to try it a bit more. Definitely a good mon, but these are my impressions. Thoughts?
 

roxie

https://www.youtube.com/@noxiousroxie
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:ss/blastoise:
Blastoise @ White Herb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse

Blastoise @ White Herb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Substitute
- Surf
- Dark Pulse
The December shifts in 2020 have brought a number of crazy Pokemon into the tier like Bewear, Cresselia, and Mienshao, and the Pokemon I want to acknowledge is Blastoise. With a decent base 85 Special Attack and access to Shell Smash to amplify the damage of Surf, Dark Pulse, and Ice Beam, allows the rocket turtle to become an effective setup sweeper. A neutral nature Blastoise after a Shell Smash hits 510 Speed, which only leaves something like Choice Scarf Heliolisk to check it after chip. Ice Beam allows it to beat its checks in Grass- and Dragon-type Pokemon like Decidueye, Rotom-C, and Guzzlord. Substitute notably allows Blastoise to use Substitute on Pokemon like Vaporeon to avoid status ailments that would hinder it from sweeping teams. The secondary effects of Dark Pulse and Ice Beam do play huge roles in freeze or flinch in gameplay. Dark Pulse is the prime example as it's the standard move used with Substitute and it can fish for flinches on Water-types, repeatedly utilize its Scald-resist, and eventually trigger Torrent to put bulkier Pokemon like Copperajah in Surf range. Water-types like Vaporeon and Mantine do have Haze to clear their setup but builders may try using Toxic to pressure opposing-Water-types, Flip Turn to pivot teammates in on Vaporeon, or Air Slash to hit Grass-types on Blastoise. With the departure of Entei with Extreme Speed and First Impression Golisopod, it only urges a more looking-into on Blastoise as we lose two good priority checks. Teammates like Dual Screens Espeon and/or Lead Aerodactyl are appreciated heavily by Blastoise. Screens allow Blastoise to set up more than once to 2HKO and potentially flinch Water-types like Vaporeon and Mantine while Stealth Rock does the necessary chip to put many Pokemon in range for Blastoise after a Shell Smash.

Calculations

Dragon-types
:guzzlord: :dragalge: :goodra:
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Guzzlord: 536-632 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 272-320 (81.4 - 95.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Goodra: 226-268 (70.4 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Guzzlord can potentially get OHKOd especially if it receives initial chip damage from Stealth Rock and it's hard to keep this monster at 100%. I have used Yache Berry sets and Assault Vest as potential but at the end of the day, it still gets 2HKO'd. Assault Vest Goodra is a decent set against this thanks to its access to Thunderbolt and Dragalge on the other hand is forced to use Heavy-Duty Boots to possibly even stand a chance. I do fear the freeze with Ice Beam every time I bring these into play.

Water-types
:vaporeon: :mantine:
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 149-176 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 94.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 45-53 (15 - 17.7%) -- possible 6HKO
+4 252+ SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vaporeon: 223-263 (48 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Blastoise: 67-79 (22.4 - 26.4%) -- 16% chance to 4HKO
+4 252+ SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mantine: 161-190 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

Specially Defensive Vaporeon is being used I know but at the end of the day, Dark Pulse + Substitute can make fun of these Water-types if they aren't using Haze. The need for Toxic is huge as it allows these Pokemon to counter other defensive Water-types they face. It's mainly the fact that spamming Scald takes a long time to make progress on Blastoise and the flinch chance really makes them as "ehh" in my eyes. I've been exploring the PU Pokemon, Lanturn, specifically Assault Vest offensive with Water Absorb for offensive Pokemon like Blastoise, but every team using an AV Lanturn just to counter a Blastoise sounds pretty centralizing.

Grass-types
:decidueye: :rotom-mow: :dhelmise:

All of the Grass-types are OHKOed by an Ice Beam after a Shell Smash. Colburr or Assault Vest Dhelmise helps with Dark Pulse but the flinch chance + Power Whip miss chance factoring in questions how effective or reliable this really can be.

Conclusion
I do feel like Blastoise is brainless and there are limited answers to this in the tier. I feel like suspect testing this would be the best thing to do especially as it can muscle through a lot of balanced teams. Thanks for reading, what are your thoughts on Blastoise?
 

shooting star

formerly Jirachirite
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I do not think Glastrier is broken, as all sets have sufficient counterplay.

Having a very poor defensive typing means that Glastrier does not come in easily and is also easily forced out by Fighting-types and other common wallbreakers. It also mandates the use of either Boots or Leftovers for longevity, meaning that it requires to boost its stats using either Swords Dance or Iron Defense + Body Press to become a threat, something that is once again easier said than done because Taunt is becoming increasingly common to counter status spreading and WishTect shenanigans. Glastrier is also vulnerable to status, so it needs either Rest or Sub, the former rendering it extremely passive and the latter still inadequate against hard-hitting sound-based moves like Hyper Voice Helio/Sylveon and Boomburst Exploud. Using 2 non-attacking moves already means that it cannot enjoy using its coverage moves, which is a shame given its wide movepool. Additionally, you can try Maranga Berry, but do you really want to take a strong special attack in the first place? Volt Switch out into a Sirfetch’d, now what?

While Trick Room support can help to mitigate Glastrier’s poor speed, many a times I found myself not even needing Glastrier since other slow mons like Marowak already hits just as hard. Trick Room, while good against hyper offense, is also not a consistent playstyle because status speading is so common, and Protect is always useful in stalling out the turns.

Don’t get me wrong, Glastrier is still great by virtue of its high base stats, but its poor defensive typing, low speed, and the level of support required keeps it from being broken.
 

Danny

is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
ZU Circuit Champion
7A9DC255-500C-4FAE-AD06-4B0CDC7AFEBC.jpeg
So after getting these reqs and topping the ladder in the glast infested meta, I think it’s time I share my thoughts on why I believe Glastrier is too much for our tier. I’m going to start this post off responding to many of the points made in the above post, and then explain in detail the main reasons it is too much for our tier.


Having a very poor defensive typing means that Glastrier does not come in easily
So this point highlights a lot of misconceptions that tend to plague slow wall breakers, that they can’t come in easily due to their typing. This was one of the reasons that many people did not believe that Pangoro was broken earlier in the NU meta. What this point misses is the fact that our tier has plenty of slow and fast pivots to bring Glast in really easily. We have 3 viable Flip Turn users in Vape, Dragalge, and Starmie, that all bait in Pokémon who are weak or slower than Glastrier. Dragalge in particular exacerbates the issue by wearing down opposing vape and Bronzong really well for Glastrier to claim or set up on. 3 Teleport users in Starmie, Xatu, and Arcanine also let Glastrier get in extremely easily. This coupled with U-turn from relatively faster mons who still bait in mons for Glastrier to abuse such as Talonflame turning on Mudsdale, make it extremely easy to bring in the Ice Horse. Even without the Slow Pivots, it’s immense bulk allows it to hard switch in multiple times and wreck defensive teams.

Speaking of bulk,
is also easily forced out by Fighting-types and other common wallbreakers.
Sometimes I forget that this is the mon that can eat a Sirfetch’d CC from full with proper investment or with a defense boost on the ID set. This mon has 580 BST, and has a great stat distribution allowing it to eat many would be dangerous hits.
Here are a few calcs to help visualize the sheer bulk it has:
252 SpA Salazzle Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 20 SpD Glastrier: 236-282 (58.4 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 354-416 (87.6 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO


that is once again easier said than done because Taunt is becoming increasingly common to counter status spreading and WishTect shenanigans. Glastrier is also vulnerable to status, so it needs either Rest or Sub, the former rendering it extremely passive and the latter still inadequate against hard-hitting sound-based moves like Hyper Voice Helio/Sylveon and Boomburst Exploud. Using 2 non-attacking moves already means that it cannot enjoy using its coverage moves, which is a shame given its wide movepool.
Going to address these three points as one, as the 1st and the 3rd points could actually be relevant issues with using glastrier, which I think is a fair point brought up in the No Ban favor.
The first point is that Glastrier is extremely weak to status, as it is slow, and burns and Toxic cripple its sweeping possibilities greatly. I’d like to bring up that one of the most splashable mons in the tier at the time is Vaporeon, a premier cleric which some people consider to be S rank. I don’t think we should look at Glastrier in a vacuum, instead realize that this is a 6v6 format and that in these longer games there will be plenty of chances to heal off potential status. That being said, I think Jirachirite is bringing up Jellicent when talking about a Taunter who also “deals” with Glastrier and Vape all in one. Just going to leave this here:
252+ Atk Glastrier Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Jellicent: 216-256 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Glastrier Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Jellicent: 432-510 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Glastrier: 70-84 (19.2 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO
What these calcs mean is that even while burned you are still able to out damage Jelly’s recovery, not to mention that Jelly’s Scald never breaks a sub so you are in a really bad spot if the Glastrier subs up on your switch in.
The second point is kinda woat, Hyper Voice and Boomburst have always been somewhat annoying to sub pokemon, so I don’t think that is really relevant to the discussion, especially considering Glast lives anything from 75% and just nukes the two screaming normal types.
Point 3 is much more important in my opinion, that many people are saying that it struggles from 4mss, it can’t tech for everything so it can’t beat everything. I think this is a valid point, but I disagree with the conclusion. In fact, because it has such a large move pool, it is hard to know what would be a check and what isn’t. It can sub on the Vape switch in, it can start Iron Defensing on the hard Sirfetch’d, it can SD and then nuke a defensive Bronzong with Throat Chop etc. The fact that it has access to all this great coverage means that it has no defined check in the meta, making it much harder to deal with.
I don’t think Trick Room is a really relevant playstyle so I’m not going to touch on that as much except that with Glastrier under Trick Room I can only assume that counterplay is much much more limited.

Now that I’ve responded to the most recent Anti-Ban post, I’m going to list the reasons why I think it’s banworthy and then provide some calcs against would be checks.

Ban Reasoning
  1. The ability to use so many viable sets- I think this is one of the main reasons why I am personally voting ban, it has too many sets that there is no defined counterplay line for it. Sub ID, Sub SD, Resttalk, CB, Trick Room LO, SD 3 Attacks, and 4 Attacks LO all have different checks that lose to different sets. There is no defined way to beat a Glastrier besides praying you queued into the set you prepped for. That’s just unhealthy.​
  2. It’s insane bulk- If it had less bulk, I would be more inclined to let it stay, similar to Toxicroak Pre-DLC(shouldn’t have been banned imo). But the fact that it has 100/130/110 bulk plus the aforementioned reasons make it too much to deal with defensively, and as shown in the response portion of the post, still a pain to pressure offensively.​
  3. Coverage monster- Pretty sure Togkey made a post with a spreadsheet of Glastrier’s insane coverage and what relevant mons it hits in the tier, but just the sheer power of its coverage coupled with the reasons above make it too much to deal with.
Hopefully you can see that this is just a busted mon, there isn’t much counterplay, and the rise of Qwilfish and Jellicent use just show the impact it has on the tier. The same effect Cress had in that it forces us to use otherwise unviable sets to somewhat deal with it(Curse Copper). Overall I believe these reasons validate a ban, and that this Pokémon is just too much for NU to handle.

252+ Atk Copperajah Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 116-138 (31.8 - 37.9%) -- 89.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Glastrier: 84-100 (20.8 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 Atk Bronzong Heavy Slam (40 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 66-78 (16.3 - 19.3%) -- possible 6HKO
+1 252+ Atk Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. +2 248 HP / 0 Def Glastrier: 266-314 (66 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Glastrier Throat Chop vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 270-318 (79.8 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 202-238 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 229-270 (49.3 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
 
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Honestly, I did not use or play against any Glastrier while getting suspect requirements. I think a lot of this is attributed to something I see very often both in the NU PS room and in the NU Discord, which is that Glastrier is "awkward" to build with. Obviously Glastrier is a new Pokemon with an extremely wide array of very viable sets, ranging from Choice Band to Iron Defense + Body Press to Swords Dance 2 Attacks sets with either Substitute or Taunt to deal with defensive walls, and this is not mentioning moves like Custap Berry + Endure or RestTalk sets, along with its insane coverage which I go into mild detail in
GlastCoverage.jpg
please note that there may be some errors on this chart, and it only exists to give a general idea of what the best overall moves are for hitting the entire tier on average
In both on paper, and in practice, Glastrier has no true 'check' or 'counter', although there are some very good ones that come close enough. The fact is that Glastrier has so many different sets, it makes it unpredictable, and with 145 base attack with flawless coverage, 100/130/110 bulk, and a glorified Moxie ability, sometimes by the time you find out what set it is, it could be too late. Glastrier does struggle against bulky Waters sometimes HOWEVER, it can circumvent this weakness with a specific set;
:jellicent:
Jellicent rose to mild prominence for its ability to deal with both Entei and Glastrier as soon as they dropped down to NU, as well as Vaporeon, with Taunt it is able to shut down Substitute Swords Dance sets and can Wil-o-Wisp or Toxic and can Recover off any damage it takes with either Recover or Strength Sap. Jellicent does have to run some speed on it as Glastrier tends to run enough to outpace uninvested base 60's and Vaporeon, meaning it has to sacrifice some bulk and leaves it vulnerable to Choice Band sets

252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Crunch vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Jellicent: 326-384 (80.6 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Jellicent also struggles to break a Substitute from Glastrier

0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Glastrier: 70-84 (19.2 - 23%) -- possible 5HKO

meaning that while Glastrier can't necessarily always beat Jellicent; Jellicent isn't always beating Glastrier either, and even if Jellicent gets some damage or status infliction off, Vaporeon happens to be one of, if not THE, most used Pokémon on ladder, while also seeing a lot of usage in tournaments as well.

:vaporeon:
Vaporeon being the premier bulky Water of the NU tier surely means that it should completely blank Glastrier, right? Well aside from the fact that with minimal investment, Glastrier can avoid having its Substitute broken by Scald

0 SpA Vaporeon Scald vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Glastrier: 84-100 (20.8 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Vaporeon also lacks the utility movepool that Jellicent has in Wil-o-Wisp, Taunt, and immediate recovery, meaning that outside of Roar to phase out a Glastrier behind a Sub (this is assuming its not Taunt Glastrier) Vaporeon can end up becoming total set-up fodder against Glastrier, and using Roar on Vaporeon means you have to sacrifice a move such as Flip Turn or Heal Bell, which I would argue make Vaporeon much easier to deal with for Glastrier's teammates.
:salazzle:
252 SpA Salazzle Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Glastrier: 236-282 (58.5 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 748-880 (270 - 317.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

lol

:Arcanine:
0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 20 SpD Glastrier: 176-210 (43.6 - 52.1%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Glastrier High Horsepower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 296-350 (77 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Glastrier: 144-170 (35.7 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 124 Def Glastrier Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arcanine: 192-226 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

lol

:Weezing:
0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Glastrier: 63-75 (15.6 - 18.6%) -- possible 6HKO

252+ Atk Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Weezing: 112-133 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

honestly Weezing is your best bet against this thing, but you need Taunt and Pain Split, meaning you have to drop Wil-o-Wisp, Toxic Spikes, Corrosive Gas, Fire Blast, etc..

So despite showing how this thing has no true answer in one Pokémon, I cannot in confidence vote to keep it banned at the moment, as its too early to tell how it will do in the meta. Like I said, I've hardly encountered any Glastrier while reaching top of the ladder and also while getting suspect requirements. My current stance on Ice horse right now is that it is balanced, until proven broken, and I just haven't seen it be broken yet, even if on paper it is.
 
Time to talk about the fake Galarian-Rapidash, :Glastrier:


It's hard to say whether this should be banned or not, on one hand, it hits like a truck full of trucks, and has some of the best bulk in the tier, but on the other hand, it basically has to take a hit at some-point without trick room, and it's kind of hard to try to do that when pure Ice is insanely bad defensively, which only resists Ice, and gets hit hard by the common Fighting and Steel types, and gets crippled hard by burn.

From a power standpoint, Glastrier is ridiculously strong, it has a good movepool, Insanely high attack, good offensive typing, and works extremely well under trick room, just be aware of not using trick room.

From a centralization standpoint, Glastrier could force some huge centralization, but it really sucks having a speed-tier that slow, and Glastrier being so centralized around trick room doesn't always cut it, especially having way higher maintenance than most teams, but the reward is high so it almost makes up for it fully.

Considering everything that I said, I'm going to vote...
I don't know
 

roxie

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I feel like the main sets that should be discussed for Glastrier are Iron Defense + Substitute and Swords Dance + Substitute. Something like Trick Room + Life Orb shouldn't be used in arguments of "no defensive counterplay" because our two defensive Wish-passers in Vaporeon and Sylveon can literally stall out Trick Room turns with Protect. Trick Room Glastrier teams sound like a niche for the common Hyper Offense and I'll talk about HO more below. Any non-Leftovers/Berry/HDB set just feels cheese in the back of my head because why would you even use Life Orb on a "standard" SS NU team. As Jirachirite mentioned, Glastrier becomes very vulnerable if its not using Rest or Substitute to block status ailments.

Iron Defense + Substitute sets have counters in Pokemon like Jellicent, defensive Flamethrower Arcanine, Haze Mantine & Vaporeon, Recover Starmie, Weezing, and so on. There are also some counters like Salazzle, Fighting-types & Tyrantrum assuming it doesn't use Iron Defense, Flash Cannon Bronzong, Exploud, Hyper Voice Specs Sylveon, Special Toxicroak and etc. Swords Dance sets are more complicated because it beats a few of the following defensive Pokemon in the tier: Sylveon, Vaporeon, Bronzong, and Copperajah.

Glastrier should be banned because its enormous bulk and stats allow it to set up Substitute on passive Pokemon. Its great attacking stats in both Atk and Def(for Body Press) allows it to kill such passive threats and pretty much breakthrough balance teams. Glastrier is indeed a weird Pokemon and on paper, and the fact that it's "a pure Ice typing and strong Fighting-bird: Sirfetch'd and OHKO it" shouldn't be your main argument when voting.

The suspect itself makes sense but right now it's extremely hard to actually test Glastrier because I had mixed feelings about it, to be honest. The fact that Shell Smash Blastoise Hyper Extreme Offense Screens are common on the ladder really doesn't shine a positive light in favor of a ban for Glastrier. I really made some teams to test and seeing Glastrier get "outdone" by an opponent's [insert Pokemon] behind dual screens has made me feel unsettled and curious as to what the current voters are going to go for.
 

Mariannabelle

chill guy
I feel like Glastrier should be banned because its enormous bulk and stats allow it to set up Substitute on passive Pokemon.
I do agree that there’s something to be said about Substitute sets, but I maintain that they’re very overhyped in practice.

One important thing to keep in mind is that Substitute requires its own moveslot and requires a really healthy serving of HP EV’s before you start reliably keeping them intact after the likes of a Vapes Scald. It’s because of these two things that the whole ‘in practice’ thing hasn’t been the best from the Sub horsies I’ve seen.

Between hazards or a lack of Leftovers, either way, by the time you finish Subbing up and setting up, Glastrier is gonna be like half dead, and that’s before you actually start attacking. Close Combat is overall the best coverage, but that move compromises your bulk even further on a slow Ice type. If you’re running enough HP to pad Substitutes, then your odds of being creeped by opposing Copperajah or whatever goes up through the roof.

Yeah, Glastrier is very hard to sit on and can win against the likes of Zonger or Vaporeon with SD, but considering that it can’t do much else afterward because it’s slow and weakened, this isn’t cause for alarm. Glastrier is a mon optimally beaten with methods besides sitting, but like, you still can sit on it with the mon that sits on most things (Vaporeon with like Haze or whatever).

Considering the amount of commitment it takes for Glastrier to set up and how easily checked it is, I don’t think banging stuff up in the short time before death is all that problematic.
 

Rabia

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I haven't seen a single Glastrier throughout the entire time this test has run, and in the games I've used it, it hasn't really felt special. The bulk is insane but severely held back by how awful Ice is as a defensive typing; you don't get any useful resistances, and while the Attack and coverage are quite strong, common defensive cores in NU don't have too much issue contending with Glastrier even if it finds a boost, partly because its Speed is just dreadful.

Substitute sets are certainly a thing, but you lose coverage with them and end up investing a ton of EVs into stats I feel you really would rather not. They've seemed quite matchup fish so far and still have quite ample counterplay.

Its set versatility is somewhat overblown. Being able to run a set doesn't make that set good, and I really don't dig sets that further cut into Glastrier's longevity and provide it no way to compensate for it; the opportunity cost that comes with not running Heavy-Duty Boots or Leftovers is quite large, and while we have two great Wish passers in the tier, it's not a consistent way to keep Glastrier healthy.
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
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A short, relevant comparison: Sub Glastrier vs Bulk Up Braviary. Recent discourse hypes up Sub Glas sets, which I also agree are the best sets. Sub is a much needed defense against status and revenge killers, and there's really no shortage of both of those in the tier. While set diversity is certainly a pro, only Sub sets have a consistent work-around to revenge killers. These sets have the same defensive sweeper / stallbreaker role as Braviary, but I believe the bird does it better.

Brav's main perks are its superior defensive typing and Speed tier that avoids a handful of slower wallbreakers. It also runs Sub, but Brav has recovery to help with outstalling + many more potential Subs. These perks are huge, as Brav will naturally check mons like Decidueye and Dhelmise, provide two nice immunities, and revenge kill the slower Fighting-types; it does this before it even wants to try sweeping. Offensively, Brav does about the same with boosted Brave Bird as Glas is capable with Ice + Fighting coverage. Glas needs nearly all its bulk to sweep late-game, and while it could be brought in to tank an attack if needed, that would then sacrifice most of its sweeping potential. The comparative pros of Glas is that it can sweep against Electric-types better, so something like Rotom-C or Heliolisk can't cause a 50/50 Volt Switch or Tbolt dilemma, but again Braivery can still play out of this. Case and point, here's a replay from NU open where Brav sweeps 5-0 and outplays the Rotom-C switch-in / Garbodor sack prediction. Comparatively, Glas would not have been able to finish the sweep due to its poor Speed and lack of recovery. Games like these are common where Brav has way more potential to over perform at its role and Glas is locked into a mediocre potential. I've already swapped out Glas on my HO suspect ladder team and it's pretty much completely an upgrade.

I really wanted to make this comparison because I don't believe Brav hasn't been mentioned once yet, and Glastrier's best set really is just a sidegrade (and imo a slight downgrade) to Braviary's best set. This is an important parallel to address because, if you agree with me here, would we need to ban Braviary for the same pro-ban reasons as Sub Glas? I don't think the stallbreaker role that either of them are capable of makes them banworthy, and to me, you can't argue that Sub Glas is broken and not address Sub Brav.

The one pro-ban argument that is more sound to me is the set diversity angle. I understand that even just having two Sub sets, let alone different offensive options, could be alarming. However, it's not really that big of a concern when Glastrier still needs a ton of support for any of its sets to work well, and in return its typing is a huge liability for the team. These assumed cons create a handicap for Glas teams that make it more of a gamble than a consistent, unfair wincon / wallbreaker.

I will vote do not ban because I believe Glastrier's best sets aren't broken, especially not in comparison to the superior Braviary, and because Glastrier's set diversity isn't too hard to handle either.

Thanks for reading, what are your thoughts on Blastoise?
Blastoise and Sirfetch'd are the two most uncompetitive Pokemon in the NU metagame at the moment. Both Pokemon have limited checks and noticeably high odds of breaking their checks. Blastoise may only need a single 20% flinch from Dark Pulse to sweep, and Leek''s 50% crit chance may easily devolve games into the fate of 1 or 2 coinflips. Blastoise's potential was outlined really well by roxiee, and while I don't have the time to do an in-depth review on Sirfetch'd, I really believe the 50% crit rate speaks for itself; it's not competitive. I'm a huge fan of risk management and I'm normally really supportive of it in mons, but these odds on a phenomenal breaker just ain't right. One of these two could be addressed next, preferably both.
 

Mariannabelle

chill guy
Uh oh Mari's unpopular opinion hour has come again:

Well, I've seen whisper whisper about Sirfetch'd, but I'm convinced that this is about more than just Sirfetch'd, so I hope you will allow me to kick off a discussion about NU Fighting types and Fighting resistances.
:Sirfetch :Machamp: :Bewear: :Pangoro:
STATEMENT: Commonly used Fighting "resistances" are TERRIBLE FIGHTING SWITCHINS
:Dragalge: :Vileplume: :Comfey: :Sylveon: :Mantine: :Talonflame:
None of these things were properly walling Bewear or Pangoro. Post ban, we're good, right? Yeah, no. Bzzt. Wrong.

Not much changed. They aren't walling Sirfetch'd. They aren't walling Machamp. I don't think I need to repost any calcs on what Leek Brave Bird and Machamp Facade and such are doing to these guys. To reiterate -they weren't walling the Fighting wallbreakers before, and they do a piss-poor job of walling the Fighting wallbreakers now. Most of them don't even wall Passimian, for god's sake.

252 Atk Expert Belt Passimian Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 281-331 (71.3 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Expert Belt Passimian Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mantine: 170-202 (45.4 - 54%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO (have fun defogging the Defiant mon)

252 Atk Expert Belt Passimian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dragalge: 271-319 (81.1 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

The exception is Plume, which isn't, uh, inspiring.

The thing about all of the above "fighting checks" is that they're pretty much unsafe on *any* fighting, while there are things in the builder, unused, that are significantly safer on at least *some* fightings, which is a step up from zero fightings.

:Qwilfish:
:Sirfetch You aren't dodging a 2HKO from Leek Brave Bird and Intimidate is ineffective, but you're still able to surefire come in once with only a little Speed investment, and between recoil, Helmet, and Scald you've got a better chance than the likes of Sylveon that just drops to Leek CC -> Steel Wing.
:Machamp: You actually *can* dodge a 2HKO from Facade after Intimidate, and have a SPE advantage. Can't threaten Scald Burns or other status, though.
:Bewear: If you come in on SD and have enough SPE to creep it, then you'll die to a +1 Double Edge, but unlike defensive Mantine, Sylveon, etc, you have a chance to act beforehand with Scald, Thunder Wave, or even Destiny Bond.
:Pangoro: Not the best matchup for Qwilfish, but if you can Pain Split after the initial Knock Off you're a bit better off when trying to come in on it later in the battle.

:Garbodor:
By virtue of Aftermath and sources of recoil, Sirfetch'd/Machamp/Bewear that attack you are gonna be mostly or completely dead if they manage to KO you, which means you've done your job better than another guy who also blows up under +2 Double Edge. Pangoro will Knock your Helmet or whatever, but you can't Knock Aftermath. Garbodor also has the natural speed to attempt creeping a couple of these even with a defensive set. Theoretically, some of the bad guys can run Earthquake for you, though. That's only assuming Garb had enough usage to consider prepping for

:Xatu:
This is a pick I've been using more of lately, and I like Rocky Helmet. Although, you might just die if you take a crit Knock Off directly. If you have Colbur, you come in for sure, though. Even if you can't do it more than once. At least you can threaten all of them out with a Psychic (er, except Pangoro) after coming in, unlike chumps that come in and do nothing because they're outsped and dead. Dazzling Gleam all over that Guzzlord switchin.

These are just a few examples of Fighting resists that, imo, function as Fighting checks much better than current Fighting resists, in the sense that I believe that [coming in once or maybe twice and threatening status/damage] is better than [not being able to come in safely at all because you're 2HKO'd and slower]
----

So, what happened? Why are sort-of fighting answers passed up in favor of definitely-not fighting answers? I've got a take.

Qwilfish and Garb and other Rocky Helmet bois just kinda fell outta style because they couldn't tack damage on Mienshao. Notice how most Fighting breakers are like, somewhere between half dead and very dead by the time they finish pushing through the likes of Rocky Helmet users? That didn't apply to Shao. In order to fight Shao, you needed Fighting resistances that had recovery and could last a long time. Sure, they were fakeass Fighting checks that were terrible at it, but they could last a long game due to their Wishes, their Roosts, and the fact that Mienshao's coverage was more-or-less predictable, with CC/Knock/U-turn and then one of PJAB/Stone Edge/whatever, so you could keep Shao 'in check' just by running a couple of fakey Fighting resists, one for each potential coverage move that would end the other's existence. Or, one could just run Vileplume and don't get Pads Blaze Kicked in the face?

There's surely more to it than that, but I don't think I'm wrong in that this is a major part of it.

I suggest that if people wanna be more prepared for the likes of Machamp and Sirfetch'd, then it's time to run better fighting answers instead of letting Shao-era fake resists be the go-to. The likes of Sylveon and Mantine have other roles to play, so they shouldn't just fall out of usage, but 'fighting wallbreaker switchin' isn't their role and it shouldn't be alarming that they are failing at not-their-role.

----------
Now, I get that in the Duck Knight's case, there's more to consider, such as a supposed uncompetitive aspect of Leek crits, and First Impression.

With regards to the latter, I personally think that Sirfetch'd First Impression is a healthy aspect of the meta in the sense that we're somewhat dry on decent priority at the moment, and quacker's access to First Impression is, imo, only sticking out like a sore thumb now that Pod has gone off to RU. First Impression, especially with Leek, is one of the best moves around to check Screens bs with.

With regards to Leek: I don't think Sirfetch'd risking it all for a KO on Sylveon using an entire item slot for 50% crit is any more broken or unbalanced than SpD Vaporeon robbing Tauros of a 2HKO by risking it all staying in and burning Mr. Bull with a 30% Scald burn. (Not that Sylveon is a very safe option vs Sirfetch'd, crits or no.) It happens all the time, but the difference is that this time, an offensive critter is benefitting from the RNG instead of the defense. [The prior sentence is not an endorsement of Blastoise in NU; eff Dark Pulse flinches and eff Blastoise.]
 
:ss/vaporeon:

Vaporeon stands out as the sole S tier of the NU metagame, in my opinion, thanks to its sheer splashability and ability to deal with a lot of the current metagame threats, specially the broken Blastoise. Clerics are a must have in a metagame that favours bulkier teams thanks to their ability to extend the longevity of their teammates with Wish and Heal Bell in their toolkit. Furthermore, access to Roar is a neat little trick that Vaporeon can opt to run to remove the offensive pressure from some of our most potent balance breakers in Shell Smash Blastoise and SubBU Braviary. Other options in Toxic and Flip Turn also make Vaporeon extremely versatile and a top-tier pokémon in the current meta.

:ss/Sirfetch

This pokémon warrants a suspect test for sure. It is completely unhealthy and I 100% disagree with Mariannabelle's take. My main issue with it is the lack of defensive counterplay and how Sirfetch'd invalidates potential Fighting-type checks, warping teambuilding.

Let us make a preliminar list of defensive Fighting-type counterplay. Now, we'd have, in theory, the following pokémon as options:

NU:
:comfey: :dhelmise: :dragalge: :sylveon: :talonflame: :vileplume:

PU:
:druddigon:* :palossand: :silvally-fairy:-Fairy :weezing: :xatu:

ZU and below:
:garbodor: :golbat: :jellicent: :qwilfish: :rotom: :runerigus: :silvally-poison:-Poison

However, Sirfetch'd potentially 1v1s each of these pokémon thanks to a series of tools only Sirfetch'd possesses and that differentiates itself from other more manageable Fighting-types. Let us put some of these Fighting-type checks in the chopping block.

-> Access to a strong, low-drawback coverage move in Brave Bird to further enhance its coverage, coupled with Knock Off, which allows it to break past defensive counterplay other Fighting-types would struggle to.
:comfey: :dragalge: :sylveon: :vileplume: :silvally-fairy:-Fairy :silvally-poison:-Poison

-> Access to Scrappy, making Close Combat a riskless move with extremely high reward, removing the potential of 50/50s with Ghost-types and limiting defensive (Colbur Berry) Ghost-type counterplay.
:dhelmise: :palossand: :jellicent: :rotom: :runerigus:

-> Access to a very Strong Knock Off that disrupts defensive Colbur Berry pokémon and cripples other defensive measures.
:talonflame: :xatu: :golbat:

This leaves us with four potential checks to Sirfetch'd:
:druddigon:* :weezing: :garbodor: :qwilfish:

The lack of defensive diversity to Sirfetch'd creates a restrictive scenario, specially when our only defensive counterplay is either an A: situational pokémon with extremely lacking usage (Druddigon and Qwilfish, the former which doesn't get access to reliable recovery and can merely check the duck by chipping it down with the combination of Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin) or a B: cohesive pokémon but one that wouldn't necessarily need to see such sky-high need to be used if not for the existence of a dominant, restrictive force in the teambuilder. I've also not even touched on the First Impression subject, that gives the duck an EXTREMELY obnovious and strong move that'll basically force a KO on a pokémon, when played right. In my eyes, Sirfetch'd should be the next pokémon to see a suspect test.

:ss/blastoise:

Another broken little toy, this pokémon has extremely limited defensive counterplay as well. It is one of the reasons Vaporeon has such sky-high usage rate and is also slightly holding back defensive Water-type diversity from the likes of Mantine. Furthermore, its sheer bulk allows it to freely obtain a Shell Smash almost 100% of the time, even against super-effective opponents and makes it hard to revenge kill in conjunction with a sky-high speed stat after the boost (Choice Scarf Heliolisk can barely OHKO it with Thunderbolt after a layer of Spikes). It should also see a suspect test soon.

:ss/kingdra: :ss/aerodactyl:

Now, I'm just gonna preach for a little core I've been using and enjoying a lot currently! DD Aerodactyl and SubCritdra break extremely well with each other and annoy these common defensive cores of Vaporeon + Steel-type super well, I definitely recommend giving it a try (click the sprites for an importable)!

Here's a little honourable mention list just so the post doesn't get too long! I've been using these pokémon and they're pretty good right now, definitely give them a try!
:virizion: :jellicent: :froslass: :tauros: :arctozolt: :hitmonlee: :toxicroak:
 

roxie

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Vaporeon stands out as the sole S tier of the NU metagame, in my opinion, thanks to its sheer splashability and ability to deal with a lot of the current metagame threats, specially the broken Blastoise. Clerics are a must have in a metagame that favours bulkier teams thanks to their ability to extend the longevity of their teammates with Wish and Heal Bell in their toolkit. Furthermore, access to Roar is a neat little trick that Vaporeon can opt to run to remove the offensive pressure from some of our most potent balance breakers in Shell Smash Blastoise and SubBU Braviary. Other options in Toxic and Flip Turn also make Vaporeon extremely versatile and a top-tier pokémon in the current meta.
I'm sorry but I do not see Vaporeon sitting on the same level of viability as Copperajah. Copperajah's ability to pull off its main sets in Stealth Rock + 3 Attacks and Assault Vest + 4 Attacks is amazing. Its coverage in Rock-type moves like Stone Edge and Rock Blast hits Fire-types like Arcanine, Talonflame, and Salazzle. Stone Edge notably has a chance of critting Arcanine on the switch while Rock Blast is just an option for accuracy + Substitute. Its other coverage moves in Power Whip, Heat Crash, Play Rough and Earthquake hits manyyyy Pokemon like Mudsdale, Escavalier, Guzzlord, and opposing Copperajahs, respectively. Less mainstream sets like Chople Berry for common Fighting-types like Sirfetch'd and Machamp, Choice Band, Substitute + 3 Attacks are also sets I've seen effectively ran on this.

Vaporeon on the other hand is an amazing cleric and Water absorber don't get me wrong that uses the combination of Protect, Scald, and Wish in most sets. Each of the last moves has its pros and cons. Toxic allows Vaporeon to hit opposing Water Absorb Pokemon like Mantine, Jellicent, and Vaporeon but running this leaves it open to Substitute users like Blastoise and Braviary. Roar phazes out aforementioned setup Pokemon but then you miss out on hitting Water types. Heal Bell of course heals status from stuff like opposing Water-types but doesn't do anything back and is forced out. Haze and Flip Turn are other options but I'm sure you get where I'm going. The metagame has adapted to anti-Water-types like Heliolisk and Toxicroak additionally. Heliolisk is simply scouted if it's using Choice Scarf and I believe Expulso uses non-Scarf so it's not locked in which sounds good. Most important, Vaporeon literally has no way to deal with Toxicroak and its just setup fodder. Yes, Vaporeon (and other Water-types in general) makes anti-Water-types like Rotom-C, Toxicroak, and etc but it just feels ehh to sit it besides Copperajah..

edit: idk how I misspelled Braviary for Exploud in sub examples but its w.e LOL
 
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Rabia

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People sleep on Copperajah a really weird amount, and I can only assume it's because everyone views Stealth Rock as its only set and forget how stupidly efficient Assault Vest sets are at wallbreaking teams. Heavy Slam / Heat Crash / Power Whip / Stone Edge is ridiculous coverage that limits safe switch-ins to what, Guzzlord, Heatproof Bronzong, and Arcanine? Of course it's prediction reliant because many Pokemon can pivot into one or many of its moves and force it out, but it's easily one of the most punishing Pokemon in the tier to play around if you get a read wrong. I think Assault Vest Copperajah gets ignored a little bit partly because of how easy putting Stealth Rock Copperajah on a team has been, but in recent months/weeks, we've seen a lot more willingness to run Mudsdale, Diancie, and (Heatproof) Bronzong, which has opened up teambuilding options a decent bit and allows more use of Assault Vest Copperajah variants.

Vaporeon is not an S-rank Pokemon. It's too easily exploited by rising stars like Toxicroak, Heliolisk, and Xatu and remains inefficient at dealing with foes like Rotom-C, Starmie, Blastoise (depending on sets and Dark Pulse flinch luck), and Choice Specs Decidueye. No matter what move you opt for last, be it Toxic, Heal Bell, Roar, or Flip Turn, there is a huge opportunity cost associated with it; this is especially true if you drop Toxic, which in turn makes Vaporeon legit one of the least intimidating Pokemon ever and super easy to take advantage of.
 

Danny

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There have been some very bothering arguments coming from anti-ban proponents. They boil down to:

‘Ive barely seen it’ or it’s ‘not broken when I use it’

These arguments take away from the actual conversation by minimizing the influence Glast has to a blank: If I haven’t lost to it, then how the hell is it broken. What these arguments miss is that those of us debating the issue are aware of the threat Glastrier poses, and so have built teams with the few counters to Glastrier. It’s the same effect Hail had in restricting us to Vaporeon+Copperrajah. In this instance it’s Vaporeon again, with the few additions in Jellicent, or Flash Cannon Physical Defensive Zong. I already explained why these checks are not reliable against Glastrier in this post, but I have a few replays of Glastrier claiming kills every time it’s in, or warping the game in a way that the opponent does not get a chance to breathe because Glast is on the field.

dump of replays where Glast is just dumb asf:

2 recent games:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1327736999-htwj1tidna8og41yu73orsorolzn5a5pw

Battle against Kink where Glastrier claims only 2 kills, but manages to pressure the entire team with its STAB Icicle Crash. This replay also shows how Glast being unwallable on their team stopped Kink’s creative Sylveon from sweeping multiple times.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1327744721-44ew7ljwp9e42u295ktdwwo65rk5qqipw

Battle against DDD Reveal where Glast OHKOs their Sylveon on Turn 1.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1314100410-c0mn3dkaz8lhpxtd0t4kub13cvw70uppw

Battle vs Schizolab, where Glastrier puts immense pressure and eventually breaks an otherwise prepared team.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1314240508-f9m2rd2tnqo0mpv7l9byblzu0g8wtjqpw

Battle vs Turtledoggo1 where Glastrier claims a surprise turn 1 OHKO, ruining any plans of sand for the opponent. It then proceeds to pressure their team with its STAB Icicle Crash claiming a kill on Xatu

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1317333263-jzmducag0l8q25jlgbex045c3vpdi3kpw

Battle vs Corthius where his Glastrier gets past my ‘Glastrier check’ in Vaporeon.

These are just the ones I have, but feel free to share some, I’m interested in seeing Glastrier behind screens, especially since some sus testers used Ho3nconfirm3d’s Glastrier screens team.

These replays show clearly that there are very few switch ins to Glast, and those are worn down extremely fast by its coverage. Hopefully these shed some light on why I believe Glast to be broken, and give some context to those of us saying they haven’t seen it much recently.
 
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:ss/Glastrier:
There have been some very bothering arguments coming from anti-ban proponents. They boil down to:
‘Ive barely seen it’ or it’s ‘not broken when I use it’
As of right now, I'm leaning towards an unban on Glastrier and I kinda wanted to clarify the reasoning. Its the combination of those two reasons that makes me lean towards an unban. With just barely seeing it, I would abstain, however, from my usage, I don't feel like its oppressive against my opponents teams. I get that that is a limited perspective, but it pushes the needle from the middle to the unban for me. I don't think its having an unhealthy impact on the meta right now (whether thats because its not being used, or not truly broken) that something like Blastoise is. That's why I would rather Unban and revisit the situation if we need to.

My opinion can definitely be swayed, Dani's post kinda pulled me more back towards the middle. I got his team and played a handful of games and I'm just going to share all the replays I have, regardless of what Glastrier did in the game. It would be awesome if more people shared replays of themselves using or playing against Glastrier so we have a bigger sample set to make our decision since its a rare find on ladder.

Please excuse any potential baby malding I do in the chat

https://pokepast.es/ebb8f42219551133 dani's team. I made the brav Boots
 
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do feel like Blastoise is brainless and there are limited answers to this in the tier. I feel like suspect testing this would be the best thing to do especially as it can muscle through a lot of balanced teams. Thanks for reading, what are your thoughts on Blastoise?
:ss/blastoise:

I 100% agree with this text and I think blastoise is unhealthy in the current metagame.

By itself, it doesn't seem like it would be an oppressive force. It has many natural checks in the metagame that are used on many teams, with things such as scarf helioisk rising in popularity. However, where the unhealthyness comes in is how the counterplay is dealt with; it beats all of its counterplay very easily.

A) the defensive counterplay

In prior metas, such as before the 3 month shifts, we had more pokemon that could stomach +2 attacks and dish strong damage back. Notably gastrodon and golispod. Gatsrodon could earth power and exert more offensive pressure than vaporeon. While golisipod could tank a hit or two and first impression. Bulky roserade was also seeing higher usage in the days and weeks leading up to its departure. Haze mantine was also better and more common, especially in the days of cresselia.

So that brings us to now, what do we have? The two most obvious options are vaporeon and the occasional mantine, with the latter not even running haze most of the time now. Vaporeon is a decent stop to it, but can't really touch blastoise outside of spamming scald, or toxic which is blocked by substitute. There's the occasional Roar sets, which completely laughs at blastoise but I don't think those are as consistent or relevant in the current meta to warrant really high usage. Vaporeon is also very susceptible to dark pulse flinches, with a +4 blastoise needing very little luck to break through vapes. If you lose this exchange, you pretty much just get sweeped because now blastoise is at +4, unless you have a sirfetchd that can revenge. Mantine in the current meta is not that great, considering we have better hazard removal (talonflame, flygon) and better fighting resists and checks popping up. Of course mantine is still good, but its hard to justify over other pokemon. It's hard to fit haze when you also want airslash to not be walled by toxicroak. What am I getting at here? Mantine usage is low, and similar to vaporeon, has few tools to break through blastoise if it's behind a substitute. Stall has pyukumuku but pyukumuku isn't the best Pokemon around and is relagated to full stall which isn't even very good in the meta.

We still have many pokemon that can survive a hit and dish back strong damage, but those pool of pokemon cant get chipped down/ easily lose to hax. Notable instances being bulky dhelmise, dragalge and guzzlord. Dhelmise has a pretty high chance of missing power whip, loses to substitute variants of blastoise and can get easily flinched/frozen by blastoise. Dragalge only needs a little bit of chip to get OHKO'd by ice beam, and standard bulky guzzlord can't do any damage back to blastoise, especially under screens. Blastoise doesn't even need ice beam to muscle through guzzlord when under screens. In screen teams, many Pokemon lure guzzlord and can chip it down, such as decidueye and xatu. With the former able to chip it significantly, and the latter being able to thunder wave. With just a little hax and luck, guzzlord can easily lose the exchange. Offensive also just drops to ice beam, and can't pressure enough when blastoise is under screens. There's also goodra which always eats a hit but goodra isn't the most relevant/best pokemon around.

B) offensive counterplay

With blastoise, there's very few offensive counterplay that outspeeds a +2 blastoise. The notable ones being helioisk, which can't even ohko blastoise from full and also brings in many other scary threats such as golurk and decidueye, the latter being extremely common on hyper offense. The other forms of offensive counterplay is sirfetch'd first impression, which requires prior chip on blastoise beforehand. There's also comfey which doesn't really exist anymore, with most comfey sets being support sets/ cm stored power, not giga drain.

Blastoise is different from other offensive waters because you don't need to predict as much, you are revenged by very common scarfers and priority, and you have less opportunities to get in the field.

Of course you can make the argument that blastoise needs to take a hit in order to set up, which is true. But blastoise is still very bulky, even moreso with a white herb, disregarding the shell smash defense drops. Unboosted, it's still faster than many slow wall-breakers, and is let in relatively easily by other teammates such as teleport xatu and u-turn flygon, just to name a few. It's very easy to just position yourself to where you can click shell smash and win on the spot. I agree with what Roxiee said, in that blastoise is brainless.

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Aside from that there's also the teambuilding aspect of it. Sometimes I do want a sturdier fighting -type backbone, or need extra support vs. dragons in sylveon. But many times, I just choose vaporeon because if I don't blastoise has an extremely high likelyhood of sweeping. Obviously blastoise isn't meant to be checked with only one Pokemon. But as I and many others explained, the other Pokemon capable of checking blastoise are so suseptable to prior chip/hax that sometimes, it feels like slapping on a vaporeon is the only option. There's also scarf helioisk popping up as a result of blastoise but it's so easy to take advantage of, such as with grounds and grass types, and doesn't even ohko from full. It's not hard to keep blastoise in prestine condition, as teammates such as xatu are very common.

I don't see the value blastoise adds to the tier other than make HO better, but there's many Pokemon that can fill that void such as omastar and kingdra among others.

I apologize if it seems like I am just repeating other people's posts but I just wanted to get this off my chest because I really do hate blastoise. Thanks for reading
 
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shiloh

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hey the results from the vote are up, and Glastrier has been unbanned and will now be a part of the NU Metagame once again!

feel free to use this post to discuss the metagame, especially as it develops now with Open and NUPL going on! i'll probably reply to this thread in a few days with my thoughts, as well as probably look to get some council minutes or a survey up within a week or two.
 
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