Metagame NP: NU Stage 6.1 - I Was Born (A Unicorn) [Glastrier Unbanned]

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Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
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Perhaps contrary to the prevailing belief about Sirfetch'd, I think Band is about as dangerous as Leek
Just to get us back to Fetchd discussion with a very quick post, I 1000% agree with Expulso here. The discussion around Fetchd has dissolved into discussing leek, but as anyone who spends time in the chat room or uses CB can tell you, everyone should be focusing even more, if not just as hard, on CB sets.

Scrappy CB STAB CC with a fantastic atk stat really has almost no switch ins in the meta, and the few that do are either 3HKOed, making them one time checks, or abusable (think Copper coming in for free to get rocks on a sylveon that has to wish or Xatu abusing Garb etc). This mon is metawarping in its own right and deserves to be talked about away from leek. The randomness of Leek is really only the icing on the cake, giving it an unreliable, but potentially game ending, set adjustment. Please at least get the suspects going on this.
 
Just to get us back to Fetchd discussion with a very quick post, I 1000% agree with Expulso here. The discussion around Fetchd has dissolved into discussing leek, but as anyone who spends time in the chat room or uses CB can tell you, everyone should be focusing even more, if not just as hard, on CB sets.

Scrappy CB STAB CC with a fantastic atk stat really has almost no switch ins in the meta, and the few that do are either 3HKOed, making them one time checks, or abusable (think Copper coming in for free to get rocks on a sylveon that has to wish or Xatu abusing Garb etc). This mon is metawarping in its own right and deserves to be talked about away from leek. The randomness of Leek is really only the icing on the cake, giving it an unreliable, but potentially game ending, set adjustment. Please at least get the suspects going on this.
I personally totally agree with this assessment, but for the purposes of reinforcing Slice's and Expulso's analyses, let me elaborate a little bit:

Does anyone else remember the demon that was Pangoro before it was banned? Yeah, a huge reason that that mon was not okay was because it had CB Scrappy STAB CC coming off of a base 124Atk. Now obviously, Sirfetch'd lacks STAB Knock Off, but the sheer strength of CB Scrappy STAB CC is even more terrifying coming off of a ludicrous base 135Atk. We simply talk about Leek due to it providing a 50/50 X factor while maintaining its ability to switch moves, ensuring that it nails any slower mons. Speaking of, let's establish that Sirfetch'd isn't even slow; it sets speed tiers for many of the faster bulky mons while being among the fastest of the slower offensive metagame. Combine all of these factors with the smorgasbord of coverage and alternative move options, and what you'll find is that really the only move Fetch'd is guaranteed to run is CC. Some of the more common move choices besides CC include Knock Off, Brave Bird, Poison Jab, and First Impression, but there are plenty of other cutsie options for it like SD, Steel Wing, Leaf Blade, Facade, and even Quick Attack. Make no mistake though, CB especially only needs CC, all the other moves are simply potentially devastating predictions. As for the common resists:

252+ Atk Choice Band Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 52 Def Talonflame: 204-241 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 156-183 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (3HKO with Stamina assuming Lefties hasn't been Knocked)
252+ Atk Choice Band Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 132-156 (37.2 - 44%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garbodor: 135-159 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 160 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 89-105 (28.6 - 33.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO

Keep in mind, these are usually the worst case scenario for the Fetch'd user, and it's still smashing huge chunks into its best checks. "But wait!" you say, "Fetch'd isn't KOing the resists, so they can whack it back or 1v1 it!" Well, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll remind everyone that Fetch'd does not exist in a vacuum. We are, in fact, playing 6v6 singles, and that means Fetch'd has its own teammates to fall back on. Furthermore, let me make it very clear that Fetch'd does not need to secure OHKOs to be an unhealthy presence. If you are putting Sirfetch'd on your team expecting it to claim a KO every time it gets in, you're going to be disappointed. The reason you run Sirfetch'd is not necessarily to get KO's, rather to break open large, exploitable holes in the opponents team. At this, Sirfetch's excels against every team style. You want to talk about Blastoise invalidating playstyles? Well guess what, not only does Sirfetch'd annihilate any stall team right now (though semistall is actually good right now ime), but it retains use breaking balance and even threatening huge hits on offense with the utility its choice of priority can provide.

Additionally, Fetch'd does get a lot of opportunities to switch in. With a Stealth Rock Resistance and bulk that may not be exceptional but can usually take any one hit, especially neutral ones, Sirfetch'd can abuse the many slow, bulky mons tasked with clicking momentum-killing moves including but not limited to Defog, Wish, Protect, and Stealth Rock. In short, I think the conversation on Sirfetch'd remaining limited to Leek is the wrong way to look at it, because it is not the only item that it utilizes, and CB is arguably more dangerous since you always have the power boost. If you're going to suspect anything, test the other unhealthy duck in the tier. Feel free to rip me to shreds over my opinion, but over the course of months I have retained it. The fact that we banned Bewear, Pangoro, and Mienshao does not mean that our Fighting-type problems have been resolved.
 
First I want to start this post off by saying that the people above me have written great posts about Sirfetch'd. However, it wouldn't sit right with me if Sirfetch'd as a whole was suspected before something like Leek. Which is why I am making this post in defense of Sirfetch'd, and giving reasoning as to why I believe Leek is the root of the problem. This post is also not about anything someone in particular said, nor am I trying to say that other's thoughts aren't justified. Just wanted to chime in and provide some of my thoughts and opinions on Sirfetch'd.

1. Why CB Sirfetch'd is easier to scout/play around compared to Leek.

When it comes to metagame staples, we can all agree that the wish passers are at the top of the chain. They have the ability to bs through a lot of Pokemon when it comes to protect + wish. That's no different with CB Sirfetch'd. A simple protect scout will tell you your next course of action. Whether that'd be switching to Diancie on a knock off, switching to a poison type on Close Combat, or even just staying in and attacking. It's the same deal for other threats such as Tyrantrum. Who's brainless stab needs to have the pp preserved. Similar to Close Combat who has little pp compared to other moves. Leek bypasses all of this, making it extremely hard to scout for what to switch into/how to effectively deal with Sirfetch'd. As it's practically a guessing game. CB Sirfetch'd has a ton of raw power, but is at least more predictable and less of a 50/50 matchup. Even though CC is an extremely spammable move, it needs to be played around more carefully when equiped with a CB when compared to Leek.

2. Offense matchup

A lot of times when dealing with slow wallbreakers, offensive momentum and pressure can usually do the trick. With playstyles such as HO not really minding many of the 'slow' wallbreakers, such as fetch'd, exploud, golurk, whatever. The issue with Leek in this scenario is that HO struggles way more than other forms of priority or wallbreakers. You're able to effectively beat most common leads with your stab + priority (aero + other rocks). As well as screen setters like Xatu, who can be killed by a critical hit Knock Off, even through reflect. Not being locked into a move is SO important, because these neutral matchups just become so much more difficult. The potential to just prevent and bs your way through set up sweepers is pretty stupid honestly. When compared to CB, you don't have nearly as much flexibility in these matchups. You aren't able to beat aero, or xatu, or anyone really. Your most desired trait is the strong priority, who leaves you a sitting duck (lol) to other HO staples.

3. Why it's not restrictive/ not invalidating playstyles

Sirfetch'd in my eyes does not force you to run anything specific, nor anything crazy or fancy to deal with it. In my opinion, there's many viable fighting resists we have in the tier that are pretty easy to slap on a team. Compared to other Pokemon who also have huge OHKO potential such golurk, exploud, ttrum and whatnot, who have fewer defensive answers. I'm not saying they are restrictive or broken in anyway, but I'm just pointing out how counterplay shouldn't just be looked at through how many defensive answers something has. A lot of the time you just have to limit their switch-ins, or just try to play more aggresivly/offensively pressure them. Sure, we have many awesome pivots in the tier. But you could say the same for literally all of the wallbreakers we have. The issue in my eyes is that you can't properly predict/punish around Sirfetch'd the same way other wallbreakers, because of the 50/50's given by Leek. By the way, notice how most of the slow wallbreakers are usually choiced locked, and how Sirfetch'd can afford to run non-choiced sets and be just as threatening. Just something to consider or think about. Regarding invalidating stall and whatnot, I don't see how banning Sirfetch'd suddenly makes stall way better. When something like Machamp could easily take its place and in my opinion, be an even better stallbreaker than Sirfetch'd. Also, stall still has like a million and a half threats to deal with, banning sirfetch'd won't decrease the number by a large amount.

4. Why other sets such as Life Orb or Lum berry would not be a good replacement to Leek.

In my opinion, Sirfetch'd needs all the bulk/switch in opportunities it can get to achieve maximum effectiveness. You are usually able to survive a lot of neutral hits, such as non-banded Flygon's Earthquake for example. With Life Orb, you aren't achieving that kind of bulk or longevity range to allow you to survive these neutral hits. You also don't have as much power as a critical hit boosted hit would have, and makes you way more vulnerable to all sorts of passive chip such as hazards. With something like Lum Berry, you just don't have as much raw power anymore. Something that Sirfetch'd is so widely known for.

Keep in mind that these are just my opinions, feel free to respond or disagree with me. Also, not trying to say Sirfetch'd shouldn't get suspect tested in the future. Just wanted to advocate for a Leek ban first before a suspect happens. If there's anything that sounds wrong/misguided, please let me know :)
 
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Mariannabelle

chill guy
What if we retested Pokemon instead of banning more :0

:Tornadus: This was banned while it was still Drizzling here. Nowadays, it wouldn't have access to perfectly accurate Hurricanes at all times, so its in-practice effectiveness is down because of that. Still has a pretty diverse movepool. It's worth retesting, just so see how it performs in a no-Drizzle zone.

:Indeedee: Basically, a direct upgrade to an unranked Pokemon (Indeedee-F). Does the Speed and Special Attack increase really justify a jump from [unranked] to [banned]? My personal take is no- retest Indeedee-M.

:Pangoro: It's slower Sirfetch'd with STAB Knock Off. It's still soft or hard checked by half or more of the tier. It was a close ban in a double suspect. It seems like something that could use a retest.

:Sigilyph: Another close ban, and the tier has changed a lot. Do you think Sigilyph warrants a retest?

:Durant: just kidding not this one

Speak, denizens! Who deserves a retest? Also, several of these are Sirfetch'd checks, if you really just can't stand that mon.
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Ren-chon

Lifesbane, 36 layers. How does it look?
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Im not too much of a fan of retesting Pokémon just for the sake of it, specially since Im of the opinion that some old broken behemoths actually got better now than they were back in earlier stages of the tier. Imho introducing RUBL 'mons could just lead to either a stale meta, where we got everything "figured out" on how to check the main meta threats and just about every team has to follow the same structure; or a super chaotic tier where we dont have enough to cover all threats and you basically go to any given game accepting that youll lose to 2 or 3 A+ ~ S-rank dogs, cats or birds (as we all know, any given Pokémon can be described as being one of those 3 animals). To me at least, both outcomes are equally as undesirable; however, I agree that there are some we could retest. Since marianabelle started the discussion, Ill try and cover the non-blatantly broken ones.

:barbaracle: :linoone: :slurpuff: Putting these 3 together bcuz they pretty much all got the boot due to screens, and not gonna include the teapot here cause I think the bulky strength sap set could actually work just fine in regular teams so its a lot more broken. Anyway, my biggest issue with these 3 is that they only require one turn of setting up and, once they do, they often have the proper coverage to just sweep most squads. Stuff like Blastoise, Critdra, Glastrier and other screens abusers require either 1) more than one turn to properly set up, or 2) still need to hit twice to get past some checks. In those situations, only having 4 turns of screens is actually something your opp can take advantage of. On the other hand, the 3 broken ones I mentioned at the start just need one turn and then they kinda... Run through whatever you have, with limited options to revenge kill on top of that. Still broken as hell to me.

:indeedee: I also think Indeedee would be a bit too much here. To me, the main problem with Indeedee-F isnt that we have a lot of counters to it because you can play around them with proper team support; the issue is the sheer amount of checks instead. The 10 more SpA means a lot of almost 2HKOs become guaranteed 2HKOs, 4HKOs become 3HKOs, and so on and on. All of a sudden you realize that your less durable checks just cant keep up with Indeedee through the game, all that on top of an impressive base 95 Spe and immunity to priority which makes it all the harder to deal with. Im not even gonna talk about the Specs set because we can all imagine the nightmare it would be dealing with that. Even though we have some good, potentially hard counters to it being used quite a lot in Bronzong and Guzzlord, our array of checks capable of properly dealing with Indeedee isnt that big imo. So yeah, the increased SpA and Spe are indeedee enough to keep this one banned even though his counterpart is UR.

:pangoro: If we ever start doing retests, this is the one that deserves it the most alongside another 'mon Ill mention later on. Honestly speaking, I still think it would be a bit too much for the meta (we are already having huge issues with Sirfetchd, imagine Pangoro whos imo more consistent at the whole breaking job). I think the most distinctive aspect is having STAB Knock Off, making the panda dog that much harder to deal with and leaving its counterplay limited to basically always keeping a Pokémon faster than it on the field. That said, Id be totally up to a retest on the grounds that his suspect wasnt a "proper" one, as double suspects are just awful imo, and that it doesnt stand out as being as broken as the rest.

:sigilyph: If anything, I think Sigi would be actually more broken rn than it was back when it got banned lol it would just tear apart most common team structures rn and force the meta to forcefully adapt in the same way Hail did. LO 3 Atk, LO CM, or even CM/Cosmic + Psycho Shift (hell, even CM + Cosmic) + Air Slash which I believe would be actually its best set rn could freely run over the metagame with little counterplay available without dedicating specific slots JUST to deal with Sigilyph, and even then it has the tools to deal with its checks by tweaking the moves a bit. Hard no

:tornadus: Cant say much because I didnt really try it out back when it was legal, but I also think it deserves a restest in a Drizzle-less meta. Similar to Pangoro, I believe Tornadus would still be a bit too much for the tier as the counterplay we have is basically limited to stuff like Diancie and Bronzong, or scarf Rotom-Mow. Still tho, Id be up to retesting this thing just to give it a proper suspect test without external factors influencing too much.
 

GW

I may be warrior
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I know that the council probably wants to wait until after NULT to start pushing forward the pokemon that need to be dealt with, but I do not think of this as a wise move. In the 2020 NU Circuit PLayoffs, a very sad decision, in my eyes, was made. The metagame that all of the following rounds was locked into was horrible, with umbreon slowbro teams usable in SS NU in the most important NU Tournament of the year, which is not a fun experience whatsoever for the players who make it far. I do not want this to set presedence for council decisions as a whole. I think the better solution is to have more convienent ways for those who are busy to have a chance to achieve Reqs, such as winning an official suspect test room tour where they only need to dedicate 30 minutes of their time, but clearly are knowledgeable enough to where their opinion should be impactful. This is why I liked the nu community polls when they came out. It helped to show what the community was thinking about the tier at that moment, not how they will feel 2 months later after those NU tournaments are over. Ban leek and let controversial pokemon be dealt with before they are an issue in Tournament games.
 
With the idea of retests being brought up, I suppose I'll contribute my opinion for what little it's worth. Now obviously, with shifts coming up in less than 2 weeks, it's entirely possible that something unexpected drops and some of the logic behind my own ideas get thrown out the window as a result of meta shifts. With that said, here's my takes on some of the NUBL list:

:Linoone: :Slurpuff: Frankly, I don't think the Belly Drum mons are any less broken then they used to be, regardless of the nerfed state of screens. With the capability to get in, set up, eat a Sitrus Berry, they're ready to sweep. Linoone has Extreme Speed and Slurpuff has Unburden as well as the bulk and typing to ensure priority doesn't provide anything resembling counterplay. Just about the only thing stopping either of these monsters is maybe a bulky Poison being able to eat a hit from Slurpuff, but that's about it. Keep these things away.

:Barbaracle: :Polteageist: If anything, the banned Shell Smashers are even more broken. For both, the premier checks we used to have, Gastrodon and Umbreon respectively, are both gone. Before you get any ideas of the Dark types that have recently rose to prominence checking the teapot, note that the standard Guzzlord set requires minimal chip to be 2HKOed by +2 Shadow Ball and bulky Drapion has no shot. This isn't to say that these mons couldn't start running more SpDef oriented sets, but then they lose overall effectiveness. As for Barbaracle, yeah its STABs rip through just about everything. I'll pass.

:Pangoro: Let me make something very clear right now, the only reason I'd be okay with this thing being retested is to prove to those who voted DNB on it in the dual-suspect test with Bewear just how dumb the "it's not as broken as Bewear" argument was. For further elaboration, I'm sure you can dig up my multiple detailed posts on demon panda.

:Sigilyph: Can someone tell me how we're better equipped to deal with Psycho Shift sets now compared to when this thing was banned? I ask because gee golly willickers, it looks like that set will rip the tier apart, not to mention Life Orb and Specs Tinted Lens breakers. Furthermore, it has the bulk to really stick around and be a nuisance at best and a nightmare at worst. Totem bird begone.

:Tornadus: This is the one mon I can really get behind for a retest. With no Drizzle to fuel its offense, Tornadus becomes much more manageable immediately. When it was still in the tier, much of the discussion on specifically Tornadus was something along the lines of; it's fast, powerful, and has a great coverage and set versatility, but really wants some way to boost its power (i.e. doesn't want to run boots) and has surprisingly little in the way of defensive utility as well as switch-in opportunities. Since everyone already knew Drizzle would be banned, a lot of sets for Tornadus ranging from Life Orb 3 attacks to CB and even a Sub Acrobatics set were developed in anticipation of a post-Drizzle meta... and then it was banned. I feel that Tornadus is definitely worth at least further exploration.

Everything else in the banlist I'm not even going to go over, because they're all not coming back for established, good reasons. Thanks for reading if you went over the entire post!
 
:ss/Sirfetch

I can’t post in the Leek thread because I’m not special enough, so I’ll put thoughts here. I'm going to be approaching this from a "Tiering policy doesn't matter" POV because I think that should be a separate discussion. I am going to focus on the two main sets CB and Leek, and while it has other options (SD), I don't find those particularly impactful.

:Choice Band:
First off, I prefer using Band to Leek personally, the consistency is something that goes better with my play-style and I get mad/tilt when I don't get the crits :P. So let’s start with the Choice Band set which IMO is CC, Knock, FI, BB; I understand the other coverage options to replace BB like Jab, steel wing, but I think those are far better utilized by Leek. This CB set is essentially a “zero” switchin breaker, which is to say, if you click the correct move, you can 2HKO any switchin. Of course as with other breakers that are like this (exploud, sylveon, even heliolisk to an extent) the reality is that you don’t always click the correct move and the opponent can also potentially switch out to a preserve their initial switchin. Choice breakers also are vulnerable to the Protect scouting that is common on many defensive pokemon that would otherwise be good “getting in” options for the breakers. Sirfetch'd is a bit more versatile than the others here though as Protect scouting will only work once you've confirmed CB vs Leek. One thing that separates Sirfetch'd from others IMO is how incredible the damage from CC is to resists. A place where this is notable to me is with Sylveon and Talonflame. If Fetch’d isn’t burned on the first CC, it becomes another guessing game of roost/BB, even though you predicted the CC correct, you’re in a pretty similar situation as the previous turn! Of course, this is just talking about defensive counter play, and I think a point that Mari continually makes is how to prevent Sirfetch'd from getting in for “free”. We have plenty of mons that are faster and can “trade” to reduce the amount of opportunities it can come in again, and several options that can revenge kill thereafter.

252+ Atk Choice Band Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 52 Def Talonflame: 204-241 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 156-183 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 156-183 (39.5 - 46.4%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (90% health Sylveon just to show how little chip is needed for this to not even check CC.)
252+ Atk Choice Band Sirfetch’d Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garbodor: 135-159 (37 - 43.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

:Leek:
Now onto Leek. I saw this in Ktuverde’s post "Switching moves on a RK/Breaker is pointless if you can't KO what you need 50% of the time" in the other thread and that’s how I feel. I often find myself not wanting to stay in on turns where non-crit doesn’t secure me a KO, which imo, reduces the efficiency of Sirfetch'd as I’m clicking switch instead of an attack when I manage to get it out. Notable calcs from Leek for me are that it fails to secure 2hkos even with move switching, when it doesn’t get a crit. Also, I don’t think that Leek, even if you assume 100% crit, eliminates prediction. You still have to get the correct move, and even if you do call it right, if you don’t get a crit, it might not be enough to net you the 2HKO you want, resulting in you getting KO'd or put in range of an easy revenge kill. To me this just seems like stacking another set of RNG on top of the switch predictions. The ways where Leek excels in my mind is bypassing protect scouts, not choice locking First Impression to make you setup bait, and lastly, when you make the wrong move prediction, as long as the switch-in is slower than you, you can follow up with another game of 5050 simulator.

252+ Atk Sirfetch’d Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 139-164 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sirfetch’d Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon on a critical hit: 209-246 (53 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sirfetch’d Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Sirfetch’d Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon on a critical hit: 244-288 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Something else to keep in mind is that a Leek ban also slightly nerfs Banded Sirfetch'd as it eliminates a lot of set variability from the Pokémon. It really enables much safer Protect scouting as you don’t have to first damage scout Band/leek. To me, set versatility (just between Leek and CB), is actually the part of Sirfetch’d that would make me lean towards a ban on Sirfetch'd itself rather than Leek the most. That being said, I don’t think individually either set is too much for the tier. If Leek were to be banned, I think Sirfetch’d would be more manageable as I think a very valid adaption would be to increase protect usage on “free sirfetch'd switchins. My opinion at the end of this is to have a ban on Leek, and then if necessary, we can revisit Sirfetch'd.

I hope this post provided some new insight or at least captured some of the total discussion on Sirfetch'd!

On a side note, I'm curious why we don't have more frequent suspect tests? They only take like 3 weeks and I feel like we could have zoomed through like 3 suspects in all the time we've been talking about Blastoise, Sirfetch'd, retests. I don't think I've talked to anyone about this before and I imagine there's a reason for it, I just genuinely don't know.
 

Finchinator

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My plan is to post my thoughts on the metagame on a regular basis, focusing on the big topics being discussed at any given time. I will also try to share any council information I can when appropriate, but we will be doing a lot more of this in council minutes as we organize to use that more regularly.

To start things off, a few people above have brought up the NUBL Pokemon as potential additions to the metagame; I do not view this as the best idea until we have a better idea about the upcoming shifts, but I do think it is still worth discussing, be it for now or the future.



:Barbaracle: is a very strong sweeper with Shell Smash and more than enough attack/speed/coverage. I firmly believe that it would be too much for the metagame as you would have to go well out of your way to contain it if not using one of a very small pool of Pokemon. It is too fast to be revenge killed by non-extreme options or very specificforms of priority, which eliminates offensive counterplay, and defensive counterplay is scattered, too. I have no personal interest in a retest here.

:Bewear: is a Pokemon that got banned via suspect a few months back and I do not see much that has changed since then. I do not believe it was overwhelmingly broken, but I also think the logic from back then would prevail right now. The shifts and their impact on metagame trends could change this dynamic and speaking too soon is not in our best interest, but in this current metagame state, I think this would be taking a step backwards before forward. Think it's best we employ the waiting game here and move on for now.

:Cresselia: was a weirder case, but do not see too much that has changed. I honestly would not mind looking into it eventually and never saw it as overly problematic, but at the same time we have a lot of people who were very outspoken against it. Because of that, I feel it is best to let it sit for now, but if there is any support to look into it among posters, I would not mind bringing it up after the shifts. That is a pretty big if though as I think people will find other, more pressing matters.

:Durant: :Entei: :Lucario: all have no place in NU for the time being due to their offensive presence. Entei is even pretty well-rounded, but the point is that I am not confident in the tier's counterplay against any of the three now. I do not see much of a point reevaluating them in the coming weeks either. Would be more of a distant prospect than anything else.

:Linoone: :Slurpuff: These Pokemon benefitted from Light Clay, but really only warrant one set-up turn due to priority and Unburden, making it so that the extra turns may not even matter all that much. Belly Drum HO was never a super competitive dynamic for an already centralized tier that had limited defensive options to cover these exploits. I feel it is best we do not explore these two anytime soon.

:Indeedee: One of the small handful of Pokemon I would be willing to discuss a lot moving forward. I am not sold on this, but I do believe Indeedee would not be the absolute worst addition. At worst, it would be broken enough to stay banned without totally ruining the metagame. At best, it gives us another offensive option to play with in a tier that would appreciate this. There is not a strong possibility I can see where Indeedee ruins the tier outright, making things outright unplayable. However, there is a realistic possibility where it forces specific defensive structures and is an overall limiting presence I admit. I am not sure if Indeedee would be overbearing or if it would warp any archetypes though. It could absolutely be fine given the amount of Steel and even Dark type options we have. Indeedee is a pretty limited Pokemon and there is not a ton going for it besides sheer strength and speed. I do not think we should retest it now or even right after the shifts because either situation would lead to a volatile fallout and skewed retest, but if there is ever a lull and we have addressed more pressing matters, I would at least entertain discussion. I can say it surfaced in discussions I have seen on discord recently, but the support and timeliness is just not there right now.

:Pangoro: Probably the one I am most willing to entertain. Pangoro was a very strong option that had unmatched breaking potential, but due to being slower and frailer, I always felt that Pangoro was manageable and even provided a presence I welcomed in the metagame. Of course, I get why it was banned and even supported having the suspect process tackle Pangoro ultimately. I was never pro-ban side though and if we have a good time for a retest, this Pokemon would top my personal list. I am not sure how people would perceive it, especially given that the ban was semi-recent, but I think people claiming that Pangoro was oppressive or overly limiting in a more proactive metagame are overselling it. I do not think there is any true "need" to retest this (or anything else) now or in the immediate future, but it makes for a good talking point until we find the right time and place.

:Tornadus: I have no real comment here. This metagame is pretty foreign to me as we have confounding variables such as Drizzle and I found this stretch particularly unenjoyable as a player. Perhaps Tornadus as an isolated variable is worth testing due to the lack of prior opportunity that was not skewed by other factors. However, I do not really love the prospect right now and I feel like it would have to get some support to be considered due to how oppressive it can be with the combination of speed, power, and STAB+coverage combination that it brings to the table. The main drawback is the accuracy, which is admittedly huge, but this alone is not enough of a selling point for me right now.

:Polteageist: I never got around to trying too much either, but it seems like it would require very one of a very limited pool of Pokemon to keep in check and I find it best to avoid imposing those type of restrictions on our metagame.

:Sigilyph: :Porygon-Z: I do not see either of these being healthy for the tier now honestly. Both have sets that really invalidate a lot of our current approaches and force novel teambuilding conventions that are more restricted than we find ideal. Sigilyph in particular was insanely hard to stop once it got going while Porygon-Z is an overpowered nuke in the context of NU.

I do not think we should retest anything right now and I feel that our first priority should be seeing what the tier shifts next week have for us and then reacting to that impact in the best way possible for the metagame. However, these points are worth keeping in your head and maybe shedding some thought on for whenever we hit a lull in action.
 
Hi, I am making more than one post in a three month span.

I will say I agree almost entirely with the post above me, down to the specific nuances stated.

The Shell Smashers and BDers largely do not care that clay is gone because they really do only need that one turn of set up and if anything since their departure the meta shifts have made things more favorable for them.

Entei/Luc/Dur just feel wholly a tiers power level above NU.

IndeedM IMO is just a +1 to a mon that is already not viable and the checks/counters that check that will likely fare the same. Forcing a speed tie w/ Drapion is worth mentioning as specs HVoice has a decent shot in the right conditions to OHKO it. I don't see scarf or other sets being worth running, so I mention that.

I literally don't think Pangoro was ever broken and was just roped in with Bewear under a questionable tiering decision but there was really no other good option at the time so I won't complain too much. As far as slow fighting breakers go, Fetch is a step above this. It just took a long time to come to the conclusion. The upside of stab knock and the utility that comes with being a dark type is lesser than Fetch's upsides of having its priority+Leek shenanigans.

Tornadus is probably completely fine and touching it while Drizzle was still a thing was probably a mistake.
 

Yoshi

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
I believe the philosophy historically regarding retesting banned Pokemon revolves around a specific question: is there strong evidence that suggests that this Pokemon would (now) contribute positively to the metagame?

If the answer is no, then it is generally a waste of resources (not considering very unique situations). This is especially true right now with a lot of Pokemon under discussion as potential targets for a suspect test (Blastoise, Farfetch'd, Rotom-C post-Flygon, etc). Saying "well Tornadus might not be broken anymore, let's throw it in for a test!" muddies the water and de-streamlines the discussions that we're already having. Once August / September comes around and all is well with the tier, there is certainly room for discussion on testing NUBL Pokemon, but at the moment, there are more pressing matters at hand.
 

Finchinator

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OU Leader
We're not going to act on Leek and will continue to evaluate Sirfetch'd moving forward. We have shifts that may alter the metagame quite a bit coming up in about a week (RIP Flygon!?), but once we know what is coming and how that metagame is playing out, you should expect the council to be on top of the ball with regards to discussion and, if necessary, potential action. I will be sure to touch base in this thread come then myself, too. If anyone has any questions in the meantime, feel free to shoot me a message anytime!
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
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Just a quick post to throw my thoughts out there. This will be super short and sweet.

We shouldn’t be discussing retests in the slightest until we clean up the two problematic mons we have in the tier. Something like Indeedee, who’s easily the least likely to be broken imo, would help for Fetchd but would make Stoise way harder to deal with without priority for example.

With the Leek controversy cleared up, I think it’s about time we move on one or both mons in the upcoming weeks after the shifts. I’ve stated my thoughts in a bunch of places, but both need to be put through the suspect process in some way shape or form so we can move on to bigger and better things.

Also huge s/o to Finch for getting some discussion and updates coming in from council over his first few days as TL, but…


:Cresselia: was a weirder case, but do not see too much that has changed. I honestly would not mind looking into it eventually and never saw it as overly problematic, but at the same time we have a lot of people who were very outspoken against it. Because of that, I feel it is best to let it sit for now, but if there is any support to look into it among posters, I would not mind bringing it up after the shifts. That is a pretty big if though as I think people will find other, more pressing matters.
plz no I cant go through this again ;__;
 

Finchinator

-OUTL
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending OU Circuit Championis a Two-Time Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
OU Leader
Shifts are right around the corner and we are all scared to lose Flygon excited for what's to come! The council wanted to leave some final thoughts on the metagame in the meantime, so check out the new council minutes; a major thank you to Meri Berry and Ren-chon for their efforts making this possible.

I think that having the council put out posts like this is important and a clear step in the right direction as we reach higher levels of activity and transparency. I also believe this is just the start, so if anyone has feedback, do not hesitate to let us know. Additionally, if anyone has more questions on these topics, they should message me personally on Smogon/discord or post them here and you will 100% get a prompt response.

plz no I cant go through this again ;__;
don't threaten me with a good time :blobastonished:
 
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