Metagame NP: NU Stage 6.1 - I Was Born (A Unicorn) [Glastrier Unbanned]

[Pokeslice]

@ NU council members or whoever runs this tier

I generally want to know why there hasn't been a suspect for Blastoise or Sirfetch’d. Even if you don't agree that they're completely broken, both mons invalidate playstyles and certain mons. This has basically turned this tier into stale boring balanced forced to use Vaporeon, Talonflame and Weezing on every team or hyper offense sash squads. I don't really have much else to say since everything been said already above about these two but I've been trying to push for suspects/bans for months now and I also feel a lot of people in this community have been wondering about this too.

Preach^

I understand waiting on Fetchd because there’s still debate on if it’s Leek or not, but even then I’d want to see action eventually just because CB is busted too and it’s restrictive.

Stoise is entirely different. It isn’t restrictive, as every good team will have outlet to handle it, but it has the potential to literally beat a good 2/3 of them, especially after minimal chip. Sub? Welp rip non Haze/Roar Vap. Ice Beam? There goes your Dragalge or Grass-type. For some reason I keep running into EQ variants too that just smoke my Copper (why Togkey why...). It really does not take much to put all those mons in range either. One Spike or Sr and it can often sweep.

Screens still support it in a similar way as before. The Light Clay ban has come and gone and it’s still a demon behind 2-3 turns of screens, able to outlast or survive so many of its “checks”. Granted, it definitely isn’t as strong as before, but it does not need much to let it get going. Screens originally put it over the top for me and it still does after some playing around with it.

I do understand the arguments against Stoise, especially because most teams will have some outlet against it in the builder, but it definitely deserves a suspect, especially because the community hates it, even if council doesn’t.

 

[Aawin]

I share the same sentiment and questions as Waters pretty much, but wanted to throw my two cents into the mix. The tier is incredibly boring and monotonous to play on top of little shake up in any new meta trends. I'm just confused as to why we haven't seen any update other than a Rabia one liner in the NU discord. I can get behind why a suspect or ban hasn't been done yet with ladder tour underway and currently in cycle 3 and all, but this really stems from having no communication with people who have beckoned to council on an update or something to shake up the tier. The tier is at a stalemate and I find little reason to play the current meta if every team fits under one umbrella (also like Waters stated).

Hopefully July shifts can shake things up, but based on data from April + May, we aren't even guaranteed any drops (the "closest" 4 mons being AlolaWak, Regidrago, Doublade, and Stakataka). Feel free to psychoanalyze this, but this is where I'm at w the tier at its current stage

 

[Mariannabelle]

Mari’s Unpopular Opinion Again

They’re both pokemon that are very popular to hate on right now, but imo there isn’t much to suspect besides being scary sweeper and scary wallbreaker

Regarding Blastoise:
It’s a Pokemon that is very easy to overreact to- I certainly have in the past. It’s threatening, but in my experience, there’s plenty to be done in-game and in the builder to stop a team wipe. The typical Shell Smash Blastoise can be simply checked by a lot more than just Vaporeon- Araquanid and Assault Vest Goodra both come to mind, among other things. It can run physical sets with moves like Earthquake and Rock Slide, but those are a lot easier to check with random Grasses or w/e, and that’s a fair nerf a Blastoise user accepts in the teambuilder in exchange for surprise value. If, for whatever reason, you feel compelled to address every potential game state vs Blastoise at once (which is not necessary by any means) you still have options like Roar Vaporeon. All of that doesn’t even include Yache/Colbur stuff as well as priority users like Sirfetch’d, the likes of which add further nuance to the Blastoise matchup. Blastoise does not secure an inherent or automatic advantage against not-Blastoise, nor does it require bizarre ZU stuff like Ferroseed to check it. You can check it with several NU pokemon. It isn’t broken.

Regarding Sirfetch’d:
To this day, I don’t get what the big gripe is with Sirfetch’d, whether it’s Band or Leek or Life Orb or whatever. It’s a slowish breaker that is gravely threatened by a huge chunk of the meta. How did this Sirfetch’d even get into position to threaten you in the first place?
If you’re leading Copper vs a team with Sirfetch’d, then you’re probably not Picking the Right Lead. If you decide to let it in for free by clicking pebbles instead of Heavy Slam, then you’re not Picking the Right Move. If you switch Copperajah into their Celebi’s U-Turn, you’re not Smart Switching. Various bad decisions can lead to Sirfetch’d getting into position. All of these oddly capitalized phrases are Skill, and Sirfetch’d getting an opportunity to break at all reflects Skill.
Assessing and Dealing with Sirfetch'd can be as simple as not running lots of Pokemon that it gravely threatens- a big portion threatens KOs or massive damage on Sirfetch’d. Beyond that, we have a fair number of Pokemon that take a Fighting STAB easily; in such cases, it’s time to make a Prediction and not switch Talonflame into Knock Off if you aren’t prepared to back it up with hazard control. If Fetch’d manages to get in to threaten your Copper, AND you’re switching Talonflame into Knock Off (there is no law stating that you must switch out if you think Knock might be coming), AND you’re failing to control hazards? You’re just getting outplayed.

Oh, and Leek? RNG =/= uncompetitive. Banking on a Leek crit on Sylveon and pals is a calculated risk (scary phrase) for a skilled player, and staying in on a possible Leek crit is a calculated risk for a different skilled player. Also consider that Sylveon and pals can consider Predicting and switching to a coverage resist if it can’t afford that risk, just like the Sirfetch’d player can switch if they can’t afford the risk. Leek is in no way, shape, or form comparable to other banworthy uncompetitive stuff such as OHKO moves or Evasion considering the exclusivity to Sirfetch’d and the skill that goes into selecting moves and getting Pokemon into play.

Sirfetch’d does not confer an inherent or automatic advantage vs not-Sirfetch’d, and checking this Pokemon is not a very specific process at all, so I’m inclined to say it isn’t broken.

Regarding both:
I don’t think either meets the established definition of broken or uncompetitive. Also, I don’t think Salazzle or Tyrantrum or Vaporeon deserve suspects either.
get gud

I realize that I flip-flop on Blastoise a lot, i hope changing opinions is allowed

 

[turtledoggo1]

Hello, I would like to ask what happened to council minutes? PU does them quite frequently and in my opinion, is a really good way to see council's thoughts on the metagame and to spark more discussion. There's still people on council who voice their thoughts and provide some insight into their thought processes. However, it's not enough in my opinion, and I'm sure others would appreciate some clarity on what council is thinking. For instance, if there's gonna be any suspects in the near future. If any items such as Leek are going to be looked into. Even just reminders about tournaments and forum threads would be nice. Hopefully this doesn't come off as rude or bashing the council. I'm just genuinely wondering why there hasn't been much clarity/discussion in the forums and such.

 

[Pokeslice]

With the lack of true Ghost resists or immunities in the tier right now, every single Ghost-type has the potential to dominate teams, whether it's Decid, Golurk, or Ghostvally. Majority of teams forego the few checks we have, making them even scarier, especially at the top level. In Week 5 of NUPL, in SS NU games, more than half the teams featured had no Ghost resist, often with multiple Psychic-types, such as Xatu, Celebi, and Starmie seeing a ton of usage.

The Games

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-562704 - Soulwind v Feliburn
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-563132 - TDK v Accelgor (shows how potent both Ghosts are, especially the sweeping potential of Ghostvally without the lowest roll)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-563276 - Kink v Elodin
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1350104421-1rebqbyysawpvjk2zesdoj0ptvsgec7pw - PDT v tlenit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-562607 - Luck O the Irish v Davon

With that in mind, here are some Ghost-types that deserve to see more usage both on ladder and in tour

Best Ghost-types in NU
- Choice Band Poltergeist has the potential to KO/2HKO every single Pokemon in the tier, minus Drap, Guzz, and Braviary, all of which die to coverage in Earthquake, Dynamic Punch, or Ice Punch. With Trick, you can even cripple these switch ins, setting yourself for a powerful endgame.

- With multiple different sets, Decidueye can be a nightmare for teams to stop. Between Choice Specs, Choice Band, and Sword Dance variants on HO, Decidueye can run through teams that will have answers to one, but not the other, and with a good defensive typing, it can often come in and break a ton of common cores. Its main drawbacks lie in the resists in the tier, all of which hard wall both of Decidueye's STABs, but it can abuse them with U-Turn, bringing in a teammate to wall or KO them.

- Dhelm has quickly become one of the few spinners we have, but even outside the defensive utility it provides, CB sets have merit too, 2HKOing all of our Ghost resists with Anchor Shot, and once they're gone, Poltergeists just claim.

- Ghostvally is a fantastic option as a bulkier sweeper that can run through teams after a Swords Dance and some chip. Not much can take a +2 STAB 120 BP move, and the few that can, die to coverage in Rock Slide or XScissor. A super underrated threat in the tier that deserves a second look.

Other Fun Options
/ - Both have a cool niche of being able to threaten Magic Bounce Xatu with their STAB, able to get up rocks more reliably than Muds or Copper at times. Palo has consistent recovery, consistently walling Pokemon like Tyrantrum or P Whip-less Copperajah and Rune has a fun benefit as the best Machamp answer, Wisp's, and other fun shenanigans with its ability.

- With such a good offensive typing, both Specs and Band can put in work, destroying the Ghost resists in the tier, but it also has another interesting niche. Similarly to the other Ghost rockers, Froslass threatens Xatu, making Spike sets powerful suicide leads.

- We all remember the Jellicent hype for a week or two, and even though I don't know where it went, it's still a good option in the meta. With a TON of utility options in Taunt, Toxic, Wisp's, Recover, Night Shade, Sap, etc, Jellicent can shut down a lot of common cores in some way, shape, or form. It can also stop a lot of Glastrier sets, too!

- Once a month, someone hops back onto the Haunter hype train, and yes, it still works. Sub Split, Specs, and Sub Disable sets all can put in HUGE work, and when you consider its huge movepool, you can abuse most of the Ghost switch ins.

To prove that literally every Ghost-type can put in work, even the random ones like these^ here's another NUPL replay from that week of the GOAT OnArceus using Drifblim of all things

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-562465 - OnArceus v Eternal Spirit

Ghost Answers
- The Glizzy Gobbler is arguably our best Ghost answer right now, consistently switching into Specs Decid and CB Polters that plague the tier right now. From there, it can break and Knock cores and do huge damage.

- Has almost the exact same niche as Drapion, but it is a lot more frail, making it slightly less consistent without Black Sludge or Wish support, both of which pair great with it. Shuca can also allow it to switch into Golurk for free once no matter what, stopping Polters and EQ's

- I take it back. THIS is the Ghost resist in the tier, and severely underused. With its typing, you hard wall Decidueye and Golurk, bar Ice Punch / Trick, and can use them to Defog or set up, turning them from weapon into liability.

- A fun bulky pivot, Persian-A is definitely worse than at its peak this gen, but it still has merit, threatening out every Ghost-type with its speed and Foul Play or Knock Off. Overall, underrated and super cool.

- Although every Normal type dies to coverage, just having one on a team, whether it's Tauros, Exploud, or Heliolisk, can decentivize spamming choice locked Ghost STAB.

Itemless Mons - A practice that has recently fallen out of favor, making a Pokemon itemless is a huge way to catch Poltergeist users off guard. Itemless Flygon, Vileplume, and Dhelm will all wall Decid and Golurk. Hell, I've even seen itemless Bronzong take advantage of Golurk on ladder.

When building, keep all of this in mind and understand just how potent Ghost-types can be. Thanks for reading :D

 

[Realistic Waters]

shiloh Rabia

It's been almost a week since my last post, can we just have an official response on Blastoise/Sirfetch’d suspects/bans?

This has been an ongoing issue for months and I just want to be clear where to council/TL stand on this. IMO this massive discussion between the two warrants a test but I respect your decision even if you don't want anything to happen. I just want to know since this hasn't been made clear and we've been left in the dark.

 

[Ren-chon]

shiloh Rabia

It's been almost a week since my last post, can we just have an official response on Blastoise/Sirfetch’d suspects/bans?

This has been an ongoing issue for months and I just want to be clear where to council/TL stand on this. IMO this massive discussion between the two warrants a test but I respect your decision even if you don't want anything to happen. I just want to know since this hasn't been made clear and we've been left in the dark.

Sorry for taking so long replying to this. Rozes has been on a trip and I believe most the council has also been a bit busy lately, but anyway. The reason we havent taken any action regarding both Sirfetch'd and Blastoise is because our course of action was kinda tied to what other tiers (RU and above) were discussing on doing too. In the case of Blastoise, I think most of us can agree that pre-Light Clay ban Stoise was a hell ton harder to deal with than post ban so we had to wait and see if the water cat would still be as strong. The ban toned down its power level a tad, and coupled with new meta trends (mainly Helio and Toxicroak rising in usage) Stoise is more manageable than it used to be. However we do acknowledge that it might be on the too strong end so we're keeping a close eye on how it fares in this meta, specially taking the NULT and NUPL into account.

As for Sirfetch'd, Finch posted a thread discussing luck items a while ago, and we were also waiting and see what the OU Council would decide regarding setting a precedent on handling those items that are abused by certain mons. In our case, we were waiting to see if, based on OUs decision, we should handle Leek or Sirfetch'd as a whole. I cant speak for the entire council, but I think we can all agree that the ability to just coinflip beat any given switch by getting a luck crit with CC/Knock or KOing a potential revenge killer through a +2 QA crit really pushes Sirfetch'd to broken territory; however, since Sirfetch'd is just about the only mon that abuses (well, that can use at all) Leek, we kinda got stuck between a rock and a hard place in regard of dealing with an uncompetitive RNG item or the only mon that uses it, similarly to the Kings Rock + Cloyster situation brought up on that thread. Rest assured that the bird is definitely on our radar though.

I think this was already explained to you in the NU discord but I felt the need to let the community as a whole know that we havent been just idling watching broken mons run havok, its just that we kinda had to wait for other tiers to take decisions that would unevitably affect NU so we could really discuss what the proper way to handle stuff is. Also regarding Turtledoggo21 post abt the council minutes, I brought it up in the council chat so hopefully we are gonna get back with them soontm.

 

[Leman123]

Thanks for the explanation, Ren-chon. As a lurker, I was looking forward to hearing what you guys had to say. Given that King's Rock was not banned in OU, I'm assuming that an actual Sirfetch'd test/ban whatever is on the table now?

 

[Finchinator]

I am more than ok with a Sirfetch'd suspect, but this situation has been complicated due to the OU discussion on luck items and contrasting opinions as to what the root of the issue may be. I am personally ok with suspecting the Pokemon as a solution, but I realize there are other avenues that can address parts of the problem as well. This is something we have discussed and will continue to; I would expect more communication on this moving forward.

I do not currently support a Blastoise suspect as a member of the council; I find that there are plenty of ways to check or counter it on balance and bulky-offense right now. Through pressure, you can minimize it when using more dedicated offenses, too. I notice some people are claiming that it invalidates entire archetypes and that it is restricting the tier a greater deal than other top offensive threats, but I fail to see much elaboration on this point besides Pokeslice, who even admitted to going back-and-forth on the topic.

The built-in versatility between Substitute and coverage helps make it more effective, but you absolutely do not need to dedicate entire team slots to it. You do have to be mindful of it, but everything that helps answer it also helps with other common Pokemon. I feel this dynamic is similar to that of other strong, versatile sweepers in this and other metagames. Blastoise is great, but not quite broken.

Finally, I agree we need to do better as a council. Part of this is on me for being pretty quiet in general -- I have been busy with work the last few weeks and I am going to have more time now that I have adjusted -- and I know other members have been discussing on discord rather than here. Members should be posting, be it on here or discord, and we should be transparent about what may be happening to the tier we all enjoy. I appreciate attempts to generate activity and get answers to the critical questions people have, but I also implore people to accompany this with their own analysis and thoughts. While we have not had many recent bans, we have had metagame shifts and I do not think posts from as early as March or even April represent Blastoise's current place in the metagame, for example. I think everyone should be chiming in on these Pokemon, including people on the council, rather than promptly demanding action.

 

[turtledoggo1]

I really hope that before a sirfetch'd suspect happens, that we can first see what it's like without leek. In my opinion it's like, not really restrictive or broken. But if there is action taken against it, I really hope we can see how sirfetch'd is without leek. With choice banded sets, you can be scouted by protect, you can be punished by wrong predictions, and you don't have as much freedom clicking your priority. While other sets such as SD aren't as consistent imo. After seeing the OU kings rock results, I don't see how a leek ban is not possible. Since with a kings rock council vote, it's implying that items can be banned from tiers. Btw if I sound really misguided/ missing information, please tell me. But imo, I'd like to see a leek ban before action is taken on sirfetch'd.

----------‐----------------‐----------------
Also thanks Council for more clarity on forums and chat. It's really nice to see council's thought process/ just talking about the metagame in general.

 

[Aawin]

Echoing TurtDog a little bit, I do appreciate the council being more transparent and not leaving us completely in the dark. I've always been an advocate for having a council is open with their opinions and thoughts, so its a welcome sight.

After we saw King's Rock avoid a ban in OU, testing leek on the Duck would seem like the next course of action. Leek give more leeway for misplays / questionable plays, whereas if it were gone, it'd be a lot more prediction reliant. I could see Life Orb being a somewhat substitute for Leek but you're worn down incredibly quick w recoil. I don't think the mon is inherently broken, but Leek deserves some sort of attention

Atm I'm kinda split on what should happen with Blastoise. There's definitely more adaptation happening with Heliolisk and Toxicroak rising in usage, as well as fringe viable mons like Poliwrath that can deal with it. Even with these mons however, I do think Blastoise can be overwhelming for a decent amt of teams. Does it warrant a suspect? Personally I think so, but I'm torn on it. I would like to hear others thoughts on that. Feel free to reply w anything I might've missed :)

 

[PlusC]

Banning Leek over Fetch feels hugely inconsistent with other bans this gen. I don't see how it's any different to Libero on Cinderace or Gorilla Tactics on G-Darm.

Looking at NUBL half of them could have had a "lesser" ban, be it a move or ability.

 

[Rabia]

Banning Leek over Fetch feels hugely inconsistent with other bans this gen. I don't see how it's any different to Libero on Cinderace or Gorilla Tactics on G-Darm.

Looking at NUBL half of them could have had a "lesser" ban, be it a move or ability.

Light Clay was banned instead of screens-setting moves. Weather rocks have been banned in the past. This ban is incredibly consistent with how we've historically tiered items. There's little difference between saying an archetype is broken because of an item and a Pokemon is broken because of an item, especially when said item has next to no collateral on lower tiers.

 

[Just_Aaron]

Light Clay was banned instead of screens-setting moves. Weather rocks have been banned in the past. This ban is incredibly consistent with how we've historically tiered items. There's little difference between saying an archetype is broken because of an item and a Pokemon is broken because of an item, especially when said item has next to no collateral on lower tiers.

Yeah, but Light Clay and Weather rocks can be used by a plethora of pokemons that set either screens and weather. Leek is only usable for the Farfetch'd line, and really only "broken" while used by Sirfetch'd.

 

[Leman123]

Light Clay was banned instead of screens-setting moves. Weather rocks have been banned in the past. This ban is incredibly consistent with how we've historically tiered items. There's little difference between saying an archetype is broken because of an item and a Pokemon is broken because of an item, especially when said item has next to no collateral on lower tiers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Light Clay was banned to avoid a cascade of bans of screen abusers and screen setters in multiple tiers. It was to simplify the banlist and reduce the number of bans necessary to keep an entire archetype in check. It's hard to blame a single pokemon for an entire archetype when there are multiple pokemon capable of filling each role on the archetype, so hitting the item that enables the entire archetype that each of the teams have to use, regardless of which pokemon they use, is much more comprehensive.

Leek vs Sirfetch'd isn't the same thing. It's not a question of an archetype being broken and a single Pokemon ban not being sufficient. It's trying to decide whether a specific aspect of a Pokemon is uncompetitive or the Pokemon as a whole is. It's much more comparable to Soul Dew or Mewnium Z or other unique items banned to balance Pokemon. I personally don't really understand why we decide that we can nerf Pokemon by banning their unique items but draw the line at nerfing Pokemon by banning unique abilities or moves. The distinction feels arbitrary.

Personally, I believe we shouldn't bother trying to balance individual Pokemon by banning bits and parts of a Pokemon at all. Either Sirftech'd is broken or it's not. Leek is as much a part of the Pokemon as First Impression or Scrappy.

EDIT: Also, thanks to the council for the replies to my first question earlier. Appreciate it. Should have led with that!

 

[Rabia]

Yeah, but Light Clay and Weather rocks can be used by a plethora of pokemons that set either screens and weather. Leek is only usable for the Farfetch'd line, and really only "broken" while used by Sirfetch'd.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Light Clay was banned to avoid a cascade of bans of screen abusers and screen setters in multiple tiers. It was to simplify the banlist and reduce the number of bans necessary to keep an entire archetype in check. It's hard to blame a single pokemon for an entire archetype when there are multiple pokemon capable of filling each role on the archetype, so hitting the item that enables the entire archetype that each of the teams have to use, regardless of which pokemon they use, is much more comprehensive.

Leek vs Sirfetch'd isn't the same thing. It's not a question of an archetype being broken and a single Pokemon ban not being sufficient. It's trying to decide whether a specific aspect of a Pokemon is uncompetitive or the Pokemon as a whole is. It's much more comparable to Soul Dew or Mewnium Z or other unique items banned to balance Pokemon. I personally don't really understand why we decide that we can nerf Pokemon by banning their unique items but draw the line at nerfing Pokemon by banning unique abilities or moves. The distinction feels arbitrary.

Personally, I believe we shouldn't bother trying to balance individual Pokemon by banning bits and parts of a Pokemon at all. Either Sirftech'd is broken or it's not. Leek is as much a part of the Pokemon as First Impression or Scrappy.

EDIT: Also, thanks to the council for the replies to my first question earlier. Appreciate it. Should have led with that!

Leek is an item that applies to a singular relevant option (Galarian Farfetch'd is entirely irrelevant here and would not be affected in LC were we to ban Leek). If we believe Sirfetch'd is broken solely because of Leek's presence, then this isn't a matter of "nerfing" a Pokemon---we're removing a problematic item from the tier because of its effect on all Pokemon it is usable on. I'll agree with Leman123 here, though, that Soul Dew and Mewnium Z bans are better precedents to reference; my apologies there.

 

[Totomon]

Leek vs Sirfetch'd isn't the same thing. It's not a question of an archetype being broken and a single Pokemon ban not being sufficient. It's trying to decide whether a specific aspect of a Pokemon is uncompetitive or the Pokemon as a whole is. It's much more comparable to Soul Dew or Mewnium Z or other unique items banned to balance Pokemon. I personally don't really understand why we decide that we can nerf Pokemon by banning their unique items but draw the line at nerfing Pokemon by banning unique abilities or moves. The distinction feels arbitrary.

Im gonna chime in on this one as its a very interesting case, but you said it yourself this is more similar to the Mewnium Z than is Darm's Gorilla Tactics hell even Mega Stones share more similarities with the Leek than the previously mentioned abilities and here is where the important differentiation between the two comes.

Leek is an element EXCLUSIVE to one Pokemon elevating it to broken status (assuming Leek is making sirfetch broken for sake of simplicity)
Gorilla Tactics is an element ONLY AVAILABLE to one Pokemon elevating it to broken status

We really aren't nerfing a Pokemon to fit arbitrary conditions per say because there really isnt a metric to know if this 50% chance to crit is inherently broken/uncompetitive or if the chance to crit + Sirfetch's kit is the thing making it broken as it is unique to the sirfetch line and knowing the impact that it has on other mons is basically impossible to determine.
The Gengarite is only usable by Gengar and if I give it to any other mon is practically useless so why dont we ban Gengar as a whole from OU?
On the other hand knowing the impact of Gorilla Tactics is easy because it is a straight up worse Huge Power and it is an ability that other mons in the future can get, so clearly the thing making Garmanitan broken is the combination of the ability with the pokemon as a whole.
Hope this was clear enough and this is definetively an interesting topic.

 

[Pokeslice]

but I fail to see much elaboration on this point besides Pokeslice, who even admitted to going back-and-forth on the topic.

Currently working at a camp so I apologize if I’m not so clear or take a while to respond but I did want to finally make clear my position, which anyone in the chat or discord should know.

A lot of my flip flopping was simply because of theorizing that Stoise would be worse with a Light Clay ban. Originally, I believed that normal Stoise was suspect worthy, albeit potentially fine, but with Sub sets behind Screens, it was basically impossible to stop, especially as it could prep or muscle through majority of its checks.

Now, after actually using Stoise a TON more in a post Screens action meta, I can safely say that this simply has not slowed down Stoise. All it ever needed realistically was 2-3 turns of Screens to run through the meta and that still hasn’t changed. I highly recommend trying some Stoise HO for yourself and seeing exactly what I mean since I really don’t have time to fully elaborate now. As for Stoise outside of screens, I’ve grown to see it as simply too much for the tier. With minimal chip it can often break a lot of its checks at +2 and it has set variations that have seen legitimate use that will usually put the advantage in the builder towards the Stoise player ie running eq for dragalge and copper when your team reliably handles grasses and vap. I know many find it ingenious, but with Stoises ability to flinch targets in a pinch should still be taken into account, adding another element of hax/randomness. I can elaborate more another time when I have time, but it’s highly unlikely.

 

[Finchinator]

A lot of my flip flopping was simply because of theorizing that Stoise would be worse with a Light Clay ban. Originally, I believed that normal Stoise was suspect worthy, albeit potentially fine, but with Sub sets behind Screens, it was basically impossible to stop, especially as it could prep or muscle through majority of its checks.

To start, posting off of theory -- aka theorymon -- in a discussion geared towards a potential suspect is something we try to avoid. May be best to keep that in mind moving forward.

Now, after actually using Stoise a TON more in a post Screens action meta, I can safely say that this simply has not slowed down Stoise. All it ever needed realistically was 2-3 turns of Screens to run through the meta and that still hasn’t changed. I highly recommend trying some Stoise HO for yourself and seeing exactly what I mean since I really don’t have time to fully elaborate now.

I have primarily used Blastoise on HO both before and after the bans and disagree with your conclusion; I primarily use the Substitute set (have flirted with others, but I admit that I have never tried EQ) and find myself lacking the coverage and/or longevity to get the job done consistently. It is good at getting a single kill and snowballing against completely unprepared players, but against most balances, you are going to just about break even in my experience, which is really not something too crazy. I would be glad to go through how I specifically approached it in building without going too far out of my way if that will help people at all.

Anyway, the main way something like Blastoise would be broken would be that if it, including its versatility we alluded to above, was too limiting on the builder, thus forcing teambuilding to account for it with multiple slots or a particularly small pool of individual Pokemon. Personally, I would be shocked if anyone could argue that Blastoise is more limiting than other top threats like Salazzle or even Glastrier and Golurk when it comes to covering them defensively. And I am not arguing we should act on any of those three either, but rather that Blastoise is being oversold. The pool of potential checks and counters to it is a bit dependent upon the set, but it lacks the OHKO power to really abuse that and it is hardly ever sweeping without massive support or progress because of this.

I know many find it ingenious, but with Stoises ability to flinch targets in a pinch should still be taken into account, adding another element of hax/randomness. I can elaborate more another time when I have time, but it’s highly unlikely.

I have really only gotten full-on sweeps with Blastoise due to flinches or blatant misplays from the opponent. This is actually a fine point to add, but it is nowhere near enough to push it over the top alone given all of the variance in our game, of course. I really just think Blastoise is firmly on the "good Pokemon" side of the good Pokemon/broken Pokemon line.

 

[skierdude101]

The built-in versatility between Substitute and coverage helps make it more effective, but you absolutely do not need to dedicate entire team slots to it. You do have to be mindful of it, but everything that helps answer it also helps with other common Pokemon. I feel this dynamic is similar to that of other strong, versatile sweepers in this and other metagames. Blastoise is great, but not quite broken.

I disagree with the notion that you don't need to dedicate an entire team slot to it, because I think it kinda implies that there are options in the tier that COULD do this if they wanted to. The only two relevant mons I can think think of that really consistently counter Blastoise are Haze Mantine and Roar Vaporeon (sorry poliwrath, you're unworthy). I actually think it would be easier to deal with if you were ABLE to dedicate an entire team slot to it, with something better than Roar or Haze.

I think Quziel was the one who explained it to me well, the best way to deal with Blastoise is to have multiple soft checks, not a single mon dedicated to handling it. This gives you a bit more flexibility in matchups, as you can use your say Copperajah to check the Exploud without having to worry about the Toise coming in later and sweeping. Have a Copperajah+Heliolisk/Toxicroak, or maybe a Celebi/Dhelmise/Dragalage. There's also the non-counter versions of Vap and Mantine which can check certain Blastoise sets. There are plenty of good relevant soft checks to Blastoise and having a few of them on your team isn't a inherent disadvantage. This is a bit restricting in the teambuilder, even though there is a healthy pool of options to choose from, (I counted 13; https://pokepast.es/a67918a8b522253a), the fact that you need at least 2 (imo) to deal with Toise could be problematic.

The reason why I call these mons soft checks though, is that throughout the course of game, you have to be very mindful of their health and make sure that you don't fall into range. And for a lot of them, falling into range is like 1 or 2 turns of rocks chip. Which essentially means it has to stay in its Pokeball the whole match until your opponent sets up with Toise. This can be very restricting in battle, especially if you're only running 1 of the checks. Additionally, some of them can't even OHKO blastoise without rocks chip and require subsequent priority to pick it off.

Another thing I've noticed in using Blastoise outside of screens, is that it finds opportunities to setup pretty easily, and even if you aren't getting a full sweep with it, getting a 2 or even 3 for 1 exchange can be more than enough for you to clean up the game. This is the aspect of Blastoise that I find most frustrating, as getting swept by it usually feels like "I played bad."

Lastly, I can really speak in regards to Blastoise on Screens post-Light Clay, since I haven't played against it much and I don't like using Screens HO myself. But there's definitely some among the community that think the ban didn't really slow the turtle down.

I'm not sure if I want Blastoise to be banned, but I definitely recognize and understand why some people are on the ban side of things, which is why a suspect seems like the most logical conclusion. If the community has been so split on this issue for months, a suspect makes sense.

I notice some people are claiming that it invalidates entire archetypes and that it is restricting the tier a greater deal than other top offensive threats, but I fail to see much elaboration on this point besides Pokeslice, who even admitted to going back-and-forth on the topic.
...
Part of this is on me for being pretty quiet in general -- I have been busy with work the last few weeks and I am going to have more time now that I have adjusted -- and I know other members have been discussing on discord rather than here.
...
I also implore people to accompany this with their own analysis and thoughts. While we have not had many recent bans, we have had metagame shifts and I do not think posts from as early as March or even April represent Blastoise's current place in the metagame, for example. I think everyone should be chiming in on these Pokemon, including people on the council, rather than promptly demanding action.

I think its pretty unfair to say that people are promptly demanding action without elaborating on why they think Blastoise is suspect-worthy/broken. This first metagame post in this thread about Blastoise was written by Roxie on April 11, and it had been floated around prior to that as well. This sparked a couple more posts about Toise(#24,#26, #38, #39, #48) and a huge amount of discussion in NU discord/chatroom. There was no concrete response from the council on the topic, so why would people keep parroting the same stuff thats already been elaborated in posts and chatroom? It eventually got to a point where no one wanted to talk about it anymore since it had been the topic of discussion for so long. I agree that we should reassess them with new posts, the meta has changed, but to say that we are "promptly demanding action" after being in the dark for TWO MONTHS is frustrating to hear.

 

[Ren-chon]

I disagree with the notion that you don't need to dedicate an entire team slot to it, because I think it kinda implies that there are options in the tier that COULD do this if they wanted to. The only two relevant mons I can think think of that really consistently counter Blastoise are Haze Mantine and Roar Vaporeon (sorry poliwrath, you're unworthy). I actually think it would be easier to deal with if you were ABLE to dedicate an entire team slot to it, with something better than Roar or Haze.

Thats not what finch meant at all though. Hes not saying you dont need to pack checks and/or counters to it, he means that you dont have to dedicate entire slots JUST for Stoise. An extreme example would be how the entire reason Vaporeon ever even started seeing use was to counter Hail, or how you had stuff like Quick Attack Sylveon in OU being used earlier in the season just to make sure you could beat Dugtrio. To me, SS Blastoise is really comparable to something like SM Comfey or SM/ORAS Malamar, in that you HAVE to be mindful of them when building because if you ignore'em you just get 6-0d on the spot; however, turns out the mons that do check or counter them like Weezing, Lix, Togedemaru, Garb and so on in Comfeys case are also really good outside that one specific job. Yeah, you can counter Blastoise with Haze Mantine and Roar Vapo, but you dont have to counter Stoise to deal with it. The list of checks that can handle the water cat is quite big specially since the meta is all about abusing Vaporeons usage rn, and most those mons can also comfortably deal with Blastoise.

I think Quziel was the one who explained it to me well, the best way to deal with Blastoise is to have multiple soft checks, not a single mon dedicated to handling it. This gives you a bit more flexibility in matchups, as you can use your say Copperajah to check the Exploud without having to worry about the Toise coming in later and sweeping [...] This is a bit restricting in the teambuilder, even though there is a healthy pool of options to choose from, (I counted 13; https://pokepast.es/a67918a8b522253a), the fact that you need at least 2 (imo) to deal with Toise could be problematic.

The reason why I call these mons soft checks though, is that throughout the course of game, you have to be very mindful of their health and make sure that you don't fall into range. And for a lot of them, falling into range is like 1 or 2 turns of rocks chip. Which essentially means it has to stay in its Pokeball the whole match until your opponent sets up with Toise.

I... Dont quite get what your point is here? Pretty much every single 'mon you listed there is, at the very least, decent at something else other than checking Blastoise. Hell, most of those are seeing use rn because of Vaporeon and the fact they can check Blastoise is pretty much secondary. Toxicroak is seeing the most use since its been allowed back in the tier, Heliolisk is a really good check to stuff like Psychic-less LO Starmie and can abuse most common defensive cores, Celebi has been seeing use as a potent NP sweeper due to its decent bulk + Recover, and not to mention actual meta staples like Sylv, Vap, Guzz and Dragalge. They all can be comfortably thrown in a team to do a multitude of roles other than just checking Blastoise.

As for your other point, not to sound rude but thats kinda how the game is supposed to be played: if you have 1 or 2 checks to a threatening sweeper your opponent has, you have to play the game in a way that can accomodate for that. I could understand this argument for something like Hail where you had an entire 6 slots to deal with or other little demons we had to deal in the past like Bewear, Sigilyph or Cresselia that could stay healthy and impact the game at every single stage. Blastoise is kinda unique in the sense that it only has one shot at sweeping. Yes, you HAVE to keep your checks healthy, but youre forgetting the fact your opp is pretty much playing the game 5v6 as Blastoise cant even be used to tank some random, weaker hits without risking being crippled for the rest of the game. You mention how your checks have to stay in the Pokeball, but that literally applies to Blastoise too.

This first metagame post in this thread about Blastoise was written by Roxie on April 11, and it had been floated around prior to that as well. This sparked a couple more posts about Toise(#24,#26, #38, #39, #48) [...] There was no concrete response from the council on the topic, so why would people keep parroting the same stuff thats already been elaborated in posts and chatroom? [...] I agree that we should reassess them with new posts, the meta has changed, but to say that we are "promptly demanding action" after being in the dark for TWO MONTHS is frustrating to hear.

Ive already covered this on my previous post, but yeah I do agree the council owes some transparency to the community, something that we will work hard on fixing from now on. I do ask you to understand that the situation wasnt as simple as it might seem, and that the solution is also not as easy as just deciding between ourselves to ban Blastoise and be done with it. Back in April 11, if my memory serves me right, we were just done dealing with Hail and still trying to assess how the meta would be after. Not only that, but NU Open was still on R2 and we were nearing the May drops, which resulted in an Entei ban followed by a Glastrier ban and suspect test, all that while the biggest NU indiv tour was going on. Everyone who played Slam last year probably still has PTSD from having to adapt to a whole new meta literally every single round, and having a repeat on that would be a lot less than ideal. And, lastly, we had the Light Clay discussion which started on early May and dragged on till the 22nd, and considering how at the time Blastoise was seen exclusively on HO we had to wait and see if the playstyle nerf would impact Blastoises viability in the tier. Even to this very day a Blastoise suspect is still a sensible matter since most the community can agree that Sirfetch'd is just as much, if not even more, of a problem than Stoise, and ideally we should always try to avoid a double suspect test. So yes, I agree weve been lacking in the whole communication thing with the rest of the community and should be more transparent moving forward so you guys can always stay updated, but we also need to understand that tiering in SS is still a pain to this day and we had a couple other matters that demanded more urgent action.

 

[skierdude101]

Thats not what finch meant at all though. Hes not saying you dont need to pack checks and/or counters to it, he means that you dont have to dedicate entire slots JUST for Stoise. An extreme example would be how the entire reason Vaporeon ever even started seeing use was to counter Hail, or how you had stuff like Quick Attack Sylveon in OU being used earlier in the season just to make sure you could beat Dugtrio. To me, SS Blastoise is really comparable to something like SM Comfey or SM/ORAS Malamar, in that you HAVE to be mindful of them when building because if you ignore'em you just get 6-0d on the spot; however, turns out the mons that do check or counter them like Weezing, Lix, Togedemaru, Garb and so on in Comfeys case are also really good outside that one specific job. Yeah, you can counter Blastoise with Haze Mantine and Roar Vapo, but you dont have to counter Stoise to deal with it. The list of checks that can handle the water cat is quite big specially since the meta is all about abusing Vaporeons usage rn, and most those mons can also comfortably deal with Blastoise.

I feel like you didnt quite get my point. Im not saying that you need to run a counter to deal with Blastoise, more so saying that if you WANTED to, theres only like 2 options do that in our current meta.

I... Dont quite get what your point is here? Pretty much every single 'mon you listed there is, at the very least, decent at something else other than checking Blastoise. Hell, most of those are seeing use rn because of Vaporeon and the fact they can check Blastoise is pretty much secondary. Toxicroak is seeing the most use since its been allowed back in the tier, Heliolisk is a really good check to stuff like Psychic-less LO Starmie and can abuse most common defensive cores, Celebi has been seeing use as a potent NP sweeper due to its decent bulk + Recover, and not to mention actual meta staples like Sylv, Vap, Guzz and Dragalge. They all can be comfortably thrown in a team to do a multitude of roles other than just checking Blastoise.

I'm not trying to make a point really, just providing my opinion/view of how the situation shakes out. If I was trying to make a point, the conclusion would be ban/no ban, but I'm advocating for a suspect. It feels like calls for a suspect are being treated as calls for a quick-ban, and that's not what I am looking for.

As for your other point, not to sound rude but thats kinda how the game is supposed to be played: if you have 1 or 2 checks to a threatening sweeper your opponent has, you have to play the game in a way that can accomodate for that. I could understand this argument for something like Hail where you had an entire 6 slots to deal with or other little demons we had to deal in the past like Bewear, Sigilyph or Cresselia that could stay healthy and impact the game at every single stage. Blastoise is kinda unique in the sense that it only has one shot at sweeping. Yes, you HAVE to keep your checks healthy, but youre forgetting the fact your opp is pretty much playing the game 5v6 as Blastoise cant even be used to tank some random, weaker hits without risking being crippled for the rest of the game. You mention how your checks have to stay in the Pokeball, but that literally applies to Blastoise too.

I get what you're saying here, I understand that good strategy would be to identify your wincon and then wittle your opponent down until they're in range for you to take advantage of that. I just think the support/play required for you to put your opponent in a vulnerable position to Blastoise could be too much. I'm not ignoring the fact that the blastoise user is also essentially playing with one less pokemon, but the truth is, the power of when that is put into play is totally in the hands of the blastoise user. Also, just keeping 1 of your soft checks tucked away sometimes isnt enough, many of them fail to OHKO without rocks and require follow up revenge killing with priority. Again, just want to reiterate that it doesn't have to sweep to be overpowering, just being able to 2 for 1 exchange with the opponent is amazing.

Again, I'm not trying to write posts with an end-all statement or point of Ban Blastoise. I'm trying to engage discussion on the topic and as objectively as I can layout the situation as I see it. The fact that its been so contentious of Ban/No Ban is enough to warrant a suspect.

 

[Expulso]

I think this tier is fine in its present state, with Sirfetch'd being the most questionable element (not an element that absolutely must be acted on, but I would be open to a test).

Perhaps contrary to the prevailing belief about Sirfetch'd, I think Band is about as dangerous as Leek; it's pretty hard to punish CB Scrappy Close Combat, and the tier's only quad resist is Ninjask so even the resists get kinda run over. The metagame has adapted to some extent, though, favoring either significantly faster teams (though many of those faster mons are hurt by a FI) or slower teams with multiple very solid fighting resists, since Sirfetchd preyed on a lot of the slow BOs (think, idk, Copper + Vapo + Dragalge) that were quite popular a month or 2 ago.

I really don't think Blastoise is as unhealthy as people claim. This mon receives next to no tour usage for a reason; it's inconsistent. Lacking coverage for bulky waters allows Vapo, as well as slightly less popular bulky waters like Mantine and Araquanid, to sit on it pretty well, not to mention other mons like Toxicroak and Heliolisk that can eat one hit and hit it hard in return, non-Water type answers like AV PWhip Copper, the tier's good # of priority attacks, and its faster scarfers, Inteleon and Heliolisk (which are viable I think!!). Blastoise's bulk enables it to take less than 100% from many of these attacks, sure, but in what world is Blastoise staying at 100% as you setup? Certainly not the same world where Light Clay was just banned and screens were greatly nerfed. I think this mon can be checked in diverse ways and believe it does not significantly detract from the health of the tier; for instance, I'm often using many of the mons that help vs Blastoise anyways to pressure Vaporeon, one of the tier's most important Pokemon!

 

[turtledoggo1]

This totally unrelated to the Sirfetch'd/Blastoise discussion, but just wanted to post about some relatively underused Pokemon I've been enjoying using recently. Maybe these will spark more creativity in teambuilder, who knows.

• 
  - Bulk up Scrafty - Can 6-0 a lot of non-Sylveon teams from team preview, or at least be a huge annoyances for teams lacking a fairy. It's bulky, has semi-decent recovery, and is a ghost resist. It can usually always find a way to cripple the opposing team, and be a very dangerous sweeper. Essentially no sylveon = big sweeping potential.
  
• - Focus Energy Kingdra - Similar to Scrafty, Kingdra can sweep many unprepared teams very easily. All it takes is one or two turns and you can potentially just win the game. It's bulk and typing are great too. Surprised more people aren't using this, especially on more hyper offense oriented teams.
• 
  - Absol - I've been using Absol a lot recently and have been really enjoying the work it's been putting in. It has such a great attack and movepool, with the priority really nice for rkilling weakened threats. A lot of offensive monsters are put into Sucker Punch range after just a few rounds of hazards, which aren't too hard to rack up. Oh, and being faster than the other slow wallbreakers is a huge plus too.
  
• - Taunt CM Comfey - I kinda went on the Comfey hate train a couple weeks back, but the more I used it/seen others use it, the more I feel it's honestly not that bad. Oftentimes it's just deadweight against teams using Copperajah. However, many teams do not. With many teams opting for Bronzong instead, which doesn't carry a steel move as much anymore. Not much to say other than it can be really deadly for unprepared teams.
• 
  - 3 attacks eggy - This might look like a meme at first but it's honestly lowkey good. The steels do not want to take life orb flamethrowers, unless you're bronzong but bronzong can be exploited by other Pokemon pretty easily. It can switch in on vaporeon/mudsdale etc... and threaten big damage on a lot of teams. There's a reason it's being suspected in PU...
• 
  - Mixed Guzzlord -After seeing Realistic Waters using it (i think that was you?) it seemed really interesting. Being able to lure opposing Guzzlords, bulky flygon, dent iron defense bronzong and many more reasons sounded very appealing.
  

 

[Corthius]

Taking the time to respond to some of the mons turtle brought up

- Bulk up Scrafty - Can 6-0 a lot of non-Sylveon teams from team preview, or at least be a huge annoyances for teams lacking a fairy. It's bulky, has semi-decent recovery, and is a ghost resist. It can usually always find a way to cripple the opposing team, and be a very dangerous sweeper. Essentially no sylveon = big sweeping potential.

I could talk for hours about how much I enjoy using Bulk Up Scrafty as a late game wincon. Like he mentioned, if the opponent lacks a fairy type (Moonblast Diancie or the care comfey are pretty annoying because you usually don't have the room for Steel coverage imo) Scrafty goes ham. There are some things it dislikes tho. Like all bulky set-up wincons it hates getting an Choice Item tricked in any form so scouting for such things is always nice. Taunt Talonflame may dislikes the Knock Off but shuts it down quite effectively. Overall this mon still has great potential is for sure an overlooked threat.

- Taunt CM Comfey - I kinda went on the Comfey hate train a couple weeks back, but the more I used it/seen others use it, the more I feel it's honestly not that bad. Oftentimes it's just deadweight against teams using Copperajah. However, many teams do not. With many teams opting for Bronzong instead, which doesn't carry a steel move as much anymore. Not much to say other than it can be really deadly for unprepared teams.

I despise you.
But I have to admit, when I used Comfey + Magneton + Rocky Helmet Druddigon in order to kill Copperajah pretty much in one turn, it did put in some work. Taunt feels like a cool option, taking me back to Porygon2 meta were that was a bit more common. I can for sure see why it would make a comeback because of the huge increase of Bronzong relying on Toxic to beat Fairy types. I could also see Bronzong using Steel stab more too tho if, at least if you notice how weak your team is vs Comfey/Fairy types. I wouldn't call it top tier but it's the usual if you don't account for it or sack your Copperajah/Escavalier you are screwed (unless Salazzle).

- Mixed Guzzlord -After seeing Realistic Waters using it (i think that was you?) it seemed really interesting. Being able to lure opposing Guzzlords, bulky flygon, dent iron defense bronzong and many more reasons sounded very appealing.

Ok everyone who has talked to me knows that I'm totally in love with this pokemon. Everything it does and how it performs. You know what, lets take this opportunity to talk about Guzzlord in general.
Guzzlord has some nice traits going for it, e.g. being part ghost resist allowing it to check the Grass/Ghost types in the tier. It has acceptable bulk, allowing it to fulfill its role as a check to pokemon like Celebi (w/o Dazzling Gleam), Rotom-Mow and Bronzong. The fact that it is so heavy also makes it a good check against Copperajah, only getting hit by 40BP Heavy Slam, but it has to watch out for Superpower which AV-sets are using quite frequently at the moment.
But Guzzlord doesn't only adds defensive value, having access to STAB Knock Off (which is arguably the best move in this gen) allowing it to remove valuable items like Leftovers, Heavy-Duty Boots and even some Choice Items from pokemon that switch directly into Guzzlord. It also has Heavy Slam which can 2HKO Sylveon and OHKO Diancie after Stealth Rock 94% of the time (they usually switch into Guzzlord so they're taking Knock Off damage which should put them in range of Heavy Slam). Guzzlord has some cool options as for Dragon STAB. Draco Meteor is a cool tech to hit opposing Guzzlord for super effective damage and dealing more damage against pokemon that you somewhat struggle with like Drapion and Mudsdale. Dragon Tail is another cool option which prevents Guzzlord from being set-up fodder vs pokemon like Shell Smash Blastoise, Swords Dance/Iron Defense Glastrier and so on. Obviously you wouldn't normally stay in versus the last one but it can be clutch in some battles. Dragon Tail also prevents proper Wish support from opposing Vaporeon (Sylveon kinda too but that is a very aggresive play) which is really cool. It synergizes really well with hazard support too. Dark Pulse (or special Guzzlord in general) is cool when you're worried about IronPress Bronzong but it has overall a worse matchup versus the regular targets like Copperajah and Vaporeon. Guzzlord can also utilize moves like Protect to scout against choiced pokemon and to gain additional Leftovers recovery. Protect also works nicely with Toxic, racking up damage versus tougher walls like Mudsdale and Vaporeon and forcing the latter to use Heal Bell which makes it easier to switch into. Rest + Sleep Talk is useful if you forgo a wishpasser on your team and allows Guzzlord to stay longer alive and makes it a reliable check against Threats like SubTox Salazzle.
Obviously Guzzlord doesn't come without flaws. One big flaw is that Guzzlord is a fine switchin against Xatu which can pivot into Sirfetch'd which is...not ideal. Being weak to U-turn is also annoying as even if you scout Flygon not going for a Dragon move, U-turn still dents Guzzlord. Also, while Guzzlord is a good Ghost resist, it is not a good Dark resist unless you're running ResTalk because otherwise you're giving up Leftovers while switching into Knock Off and lose the passive recovery. Vaporeon and Sylveon's wishes are also not big enough to heal even half of Guzzlords HP making even the Wish support somewhat lacking.
I still think Guzzlord is overall a really great pokemon and sets like Choice Specs or Choice Band are good at breaking as well. People should try this pokemon more in my opinion.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1359071665-s4cl6d7ekn5q4tzbijvq58oghqwtthapw - good example where the opp didn't account for special Guzzlord.

Feel free to add your thoughts on any of these pokemon or add more pokemon you think are worth talking about!