Metagame NP: NU Stage 6.1 - I Was Born (A Unicorn) [Glastrier Unbanned]

[Pokeslice]

I feel like it has got to the point where I would love to see a Council Vote on both Stoise and Sirfetch'd




For a more in depth analysis, look over at Roxiee's post earlier about Stoise, and I heartily agree with everything said. Stoise is the most unhealthy presence in the meta atm, a big part of the Vap centralization we have right now and able to clear out teams with ease after a round of Stealth Rock or two. On top of that, it's solid bulk gives it ample opportunity to set up, and as someone who spammed it behind screens, when you add that extra cushion, it can straight up 6-0 more offensive builds. There's also a ton of opportunity for hax with all of us losing our AV Copper to an Ice Beam freeze or our Vaporeons to two flinches back to back. Substitute sets are also potent for avoiding Toxics and T Waves that historically have threatened sweepers like this and often you don't know if they are running Substitute until it's too late. Overall, it seems like the majority of the meta wants this demon banished to NUBL and our meta will be SO much better with this gone so I support a quick ban of Stoise if the council goes that route.



God I hate this mon. A super high attack stat, great coverage, a goated ability in Scrappy, STAB CC's, and FI for offense have made this mon a killer. It's kinda funny thinking that in Research Week months ago we thought it was trash, and yet now it's the premier breaker. The main problem is that traditional Fighting answers don't really work on Sirfetch'd. Our only Fairy is Sylveon, who can be 2HKOed after a small amount of chip, and Talon seriously hates switching into a Knock, and banking on a 30% burn chance isn't the most reliable. On top of that, Ghost-types can't take advantage of a CC locked Fetch'd because of Scrappy, severely limited our options for switch ins, and offensively, teams can't reliably pick it off because of First Impression killing weakened threatens like Mowtom or Stoise. Oh, and Leek sets exist, too, really mixing up the options teams will have to revenge kill it. All in all, Fetch'd is just extremely unhealthy and impossible to switch, warping teams to run the same one or two checks that aren't even consistent. I would love a qb or suspect on this guy, too, especially because I believe this is most restricting force on the metagame after Stoise. Being able to run more traditional Physical Fight resists ie Ghost-types or Intimidate mons opens up teambuilding in a HUGE way, and at the same time, we wouldn't lose out on a powerful Fighting breaker, with Machamp next up in line to fill that slot, but in a way more healthy way (LET ME RUN RUNERIGUS THANK YOU)



I called this months ago, but it's almost time for Lazzle's reckoning. This mon has no place in NU, able to reliably break down defensive and offensive teams alike with its blazing speed, solid SpA, great typing, and awesome ability, punishing main switch in Dragalge and putting it on a timer. All of that only accounts for NP sets though, with SubTox Lazzle absolutely teams that aren't prepped for it, and the thing is, not much can beat it. Your best bets are Heal Bell+Flip Turn/Pivoting or a random Rock Blast Gigalith, but without that, good luck! I think this one is slightly more controversial and not as streamlined so I would want a suspect test where I will be voting ban. Stop sleeping on Salazzle everyone it still owns like nothing else.

Imo, the best bet currently is to qb Stoise and Fetch'd since they have the meta in a chokehold and go straight into a lazzle suspect. For the sake of letting the meta finally develop healthily all three will have to go, but it's really hard to find any potential Salazzle answers when the other two broken mons stop most creativity and keep it locked to just Talon+Vap cores.

 

[Corthius]

not much can beat it.

I want to respond to this rq since I think you miss out on a lot of things that can actually beat SubTox Salazzle. First of all a big thing you seem to forget is that while Toxic is putting you on a timer, Salazzle itself isn't posing too much of a threat. With only room to run Flamethrower as your attack and no investment in SpA it doesn't hit that hard which means you can actually go and P stall Toxic if you play it smart. There are a lot of pokemon at the moment that resist Fire/Salazzle's STABs (in case you run into Poison STAB SubTox Salazzle ig) and pair really nicely together. Good examples would be cores of Sylveon/Diancie + Mantine/Dragalge or Vaporeon + Flygon; both cores fit naturally together and both members take little to no damage from Salazzle's attacks while constantly threatening it to break its sub or switching in and out between each other while at least one of them has access to Heal Bell so if the Salazzle user wants to Toxic both of the core you can actually PP stall Toxic. Specific pokemon like Dragalge specifically can be really annoying since it can break the Substitute and get a slow pivot into a potential revengekiller. I know that this can work because I have beaten a SubTox Salazzle this way. The main drawback I see with this is the potential switch of the Salazzle user but you need to account for plays like that every game anyway.
I dislike listing single pokemon as checks because it always looks like 'Oh we have this one mon that can check it so its not broken, just use this' but the pokemon itself is really good right now and deserves the mention. I am talking about RestTalk Guzzlord. I don't think I need to really explain how you beat SubTox Salazzle since it is pretty self-explanatory and Guzzlord being a good pick at the moment is a topic for itself.

Rock Blast isn't that common (prob only Gigalith, AV Copperajah and Aerodactyl have the room for it) at the moment but the first thing that comes to mind if you think about 'how do I check SubTox Salazzle?'; but its not the only way to check it.


Now to make a full 180°, Nasty Plot Salazzle on the other hand is amazing and imo better than SubTox Salazzle rn. With three moves it basically hits the entire tier for neutral damage and a base SpA stat of 111 makes it very terrifying once set up. Its dual STAB is amazing and the last slot is pretty flexible, depending on what you need and on your team structure. HO teams tend to use Focus Sash and Dragon Pulse to make revenging it with Flygon harder and let it bypass normal checks like Dragalge and Guzzlord. Balance teams (w/o Xatu) usually run Heavy-Duty Boots and here the last slot can really be whatever you prefer. It has the space to run Toxic, Knock Off and Encore and obviously also Dragon Pulse. Salazzle also has 117 base speed letting it outspeed fast threats like Tauros and Starmie and makes it really hard to revengekill. Im not 100% sold on Salazzle being broken or anything but Nasty Plot sets are really good right now.

 

[Pokeslice]

I want to respond to this rq since I think you miss out on a lot of things that can actually beat SubTox Salazzle.

Besides RestTalk Guzz which, I’ll admit, I forgot, I actually mention the rest of the cores you talk about under Heal Bell+Pivot, because without that distinct combo, SubTox Lazzle has the potential to 1v1 or severely cripple every one of them for majority of the game. On top of that, unless your Scarf Flygon, although I’ve been loving defensive gon+vap, you can’t actually KO it so it can SubTect stall once or twice, whittle you down a bit, and switch easily into the reliable scald coming out only to do it again later in the match. You might say that you can pp stall Toxics, but the thing is, it’ll always outlast you. That’s my main gripe with this set. It isn’t unbeatable but unless you have that specific Heal Bell pivot combo, it will time and time again 1v1 or beat Pokemon that it should never have the option of beating, especially over the course of a game.

oh also, I’m still malding from getting 6-0ed by the most disgusting Salazzle set I’ve ever seen in Sub Protect Toxic Disable which absolutely DESTROYED my vaporeon so s/o to that guy and please never run it again ty ty

 

[Danny]

I called this months ago, but it's almost time for Lazzle's reckoning. This mon has no place in NU, able to reliably break down defensive and offensive teams alike with its blazing speed, solid SpA, great typing, and awesome ability, punishing main switch in Dragalge and putting it on a timer. All of that only accounts for NP sets though, with SubTox Lazzle absolutely teams that aren't prepped for it, and the thing is, not much can beat it. Your best bets are Heal Bell+Flip Turn/Pivoting or a random Rock Blast Gigalith, but without that, good luck! I think this one is slightly more controversial and not as streamlined so I would want a suspect test where I will be voting ban. Stop sleeping on Salazzle everyone it still owns like nothing else.

Just gonna start off saying I agree with both assessments about sir and stoise. They are unhealthy, having to use Garbodor(which admittedly is awesome, still mid tho) and scarf heliolisk if I don’t want to use Vape is not a good look, and I’m not going to repeat your points so I’ll just leave that there.

I hard disagree with the belief that lazzle is broken. I think it’s in a really healthy place right now, between Mudsdale spam, Talonflame being a top mon, and Vape being on any job. Sub Tox lazzle is blanked by Guzz as you said just now, and other common mons can out speed and annoy it. It IS under rated though you guys should try it.

 

[turtledoggo1]

In my opinion the best option to deal with Sirfetch'd for now is to just ban leak. Leak is uncompetitive, we all know it, which is also why the other rng items and abilities are a hot topic right now. Correct me if I am wrong or sound uninformed, but I really don't know why we can't just ban leak? Like what does it do for the metagame that positively benefits it? By banning leak, it makes sirfetch'd slightly more predictable and easier to handle, giving us a different representation on how it preforms in the meta. Once again, please correct me if I sound uninformed lol but I really think a leak ban would make sense, especially during the current state of things.

The thing with sirfetch'd is that, yes, it's a terrifying breaker. However, it's not really not that much different than other fighters if you think about it. Fighting types being able to take care of sylveon + talonflame are everywhere... I mean machamp does the same thing in regards to breaking, in fact breaking through poison types easier as well. Toxicroak also breaks through common fighting resists (other than poisons) and to a lesser extent, passimian. In my eyes, I think there should be more time passed before sirfetch'd is suspected, as there's recent meta trends that haven't been the most in sirfetch'd favor. For instance more bulky poisons, more xatu around, and more screens. Unlike blastoise, who doesn't really have to worry about much meta trends because... there are very little 'trends' that can handle stoise. The only one I can think of is like, scarf helioisk and more specially defensive vaporeon.

I don't really have much to say about salazzle since I never really had problems with it. But imo it's more of an annoyance than something broken. It doesn't really mandate or restrict teambuilding. There's many Pokemon that survive a +2 hit, can outspeed and revenge, or pressure it enough where it can't set up. Sub tox is annoying but managable.

 

[Pokeslice]

In my opinion the best option to deal with Sirfetch'd for now is to just ban leak. Leak is uncompetitive, we all know it, which is also why the other rng items and abilities are a hot topic right now. Correct me if I am wrong or sound uninformed, but I really don't know why we can't just ban leak? Like what does it do for the metagame that positively benefits it? By banning leak, it makes sirfetch'd slightly more predictable and easier to handle, giving us a different representation on how it preforms in the meta. Once again, please correct me if I sound uninformed lol but I really think a leak ban would make sense, especially during the current state of things.

The main problems with Fetch'd aren't in Leek persay, but more in CB since it has near perfect coverage and is impossible to switch into with the combo of Scrappy+STAB CB CC when paired with options like Knock Off, BB, Steel Wing, and FI. When your best option is burn fishing with Talon, you know somethings wrong. Leek is just the icing on the cake.

The thing with sirfetch'd is that, yes, it's a terrifying breaker. However, it's not really not that much different than other fighters if you think about it.

The main reason Machamp will be SO much easier to deal is that now you can run Ghost-types as a more traditional Fighting switch in, it's so much easier to switch into over the course of a game with how susceptible it is to any chip damage ie Garb or hazards in general, and now offense can reliably handle it because of the lack of FI. Intimidate mons like Arcanine or Qwil are now able to switch in and weaken it, too, which is super nice. None of the above mentioned actually applies to Sirfetch'd, making it leagues harder to wall and KO reliably. I think fetch'd is wild and Machamp will still fill that busted Fighter slot, but will have significantly more counterplay and easily healthier.

 

[turtledoggo1]

The main reason Machamp will be SO much easier to deal is that now you can run Ghost-types as a more traditional Fighting switch in, it's so much easier to switch into over the course of a game with how susceptible it is to any chip damage ie Garb or hazards in general, and now offense can reliably handle it because of the lack of FI. Intimidate mons like Arcanine or Qwil are now able to switch in and weaken it, too, which is super nice. None of the above mentioned actually applies to Sirfetch'd, making it leagues harder to wall and KO reliably. I think fetch'd is wild and Machamp will still fill that busted Fighter slot, but will have significantly more counterplay and easily healthier.

I don't disagree with the statement about ghosts not being able to switch into fighting type attacks (which is dumb they can't). However, I do disagree with some of the things said after. Yes, machamp is much easier to chip, but the same can be said about sirfetch'd. Like machamp, it's still annoyed by garb + hazards and is also annoyed by tspikes, which machamp is not. Over the course of a long game I'd actually say machamp is better. As it can reliably switch into scalds, while sirfetch'd cannot and often relies on getting early game kills. Yeah it's kind of annoying seeing how Arcanine can't really switch in, but the part about qwilfish - it can't switch into any fighter except passimian lol. Regarding offense...

1. Screens

In screens, sirfetch'd can revenge Pokemon, yes. However, it cannot take any hits at all and if first impression doesn't KO, then it basically just dies (or becomes a sitting duck lol). I don't see how first impression is an unhealthy element. Yes, screens doesn't like sirfetch'd too much, but I don't think it restricts the way screens is played, nor restricts what Pokemon are used under screens. In fact common staples such as salazzle and blastoise aren't really too bothered with first impression unless it crits. Which part of the reason why I suggested that maybe leak should be banned as it kinda just does bs moves like that. (without leak it's easier to handle fetch'd is what im trying to say lol). Machamp is obviously easier for offense to handle but it doesn't mean it isn't annoying like how sirfetch'd is with First Impression. Machamp doesn't care about status such as thunder wave from xatu or yawn from espeon. It also beats aerodactyl 1v1 thanks to it's access to priority bullet punch (which sirfetch'd can't do). Once screen setters are gone machamp has natural bulk, allowing it to survive many hits actually. There's also toxicroak with priority sucker punch. It's not as powerful as first impression but does score better coverage against common screen picks such as salazzle, decidueye and blastoise (it doesn't do more vs. blastoise, but toxicroak as a mon is good vs. it) What I'm basically trying to say is that yes, Sirfetch'd is slightly annoying for offense but it doesn't mean it's unhealthy in any way (imo leak is). I'm not trying to suggest that machamp or toxicroak are unhealthy or anything but I do just want to make some comparisons just to show that it's not a sirfetch'd-only thing with regards to offense.

2. Terrain

Psychic terrain is in my experience, a decently common HO style. And also completely dunks on sirfetch'd (everything normally used outspeeds sirfetch'd and ohkos, also blocks first impression). Electric terrain (which isn't that common) is the same kind of idea except for the first impression part. However, it's not like it can't adapt. Raichu-Alola commonly ran protect as a move when golispod was here (and sirfetch'd wasn't so common) showing how it's quite easy for electric terrain and offense in general to adapt.

I don't have much to say about other offenses like the one that Mariannabelle used during reqs but I'd just assume that First Impression can be dealt with by aggressive plays (isn't that what offense is about?)

 

[Mariannabelle]

re: hard to wall + The Sylveon Rant

Well, yes, but also no. It's hard (but not impossible) to wall Sirfetch'd with something that has Roost or Recover or Wish. On the other hand, it's fairly simple to ruin the duck's life with things that have Pain Split. Again, I will not let you ignore our Poisons like Qwilfish, Garbodor, and Weezing.

'But Mari, they get 2HKO'd by Brave Bird!'

Sirfetch'd is also practically killing itself if it insists on blasting through with Brave Bird, especially as far as Garbodor is concerned.

Two meaningfully fat Ghosts in (Colbur?) Cofagrigus and Runerigus can switch in at least once due to their Abilities. With the exception of Pallossand, every other Ghost would be rolling some risky dice trying to come in on CC even if there was no Scrappy involved. Not that I think we should entertain the idea of just banning Scrappy Fightings until Ghosts are good again. When all you have to do to stonewall the entire meta is bring one fat Normal and one fat Ghost, things get stale. Maybe I'm wrong and just speaking for myself, but I don't think most of us wanna go back to the kind of meta we had when Miltank/Cofagrigus/Decidueye were completely running the tier.

You'll have a hard time walling Sirfetch'd with Sylveon. Not because Sirfetch'd is broken, but because Sylveon is only good at walling weak Fightings, nothing strong with a secondary STAB or good coverage like Facade. Stop posting about Sylveon. Sylveon is not relevant to the conversation. Sylveon has never walled any decent Fighting wallbreaker, end of story. Not a unique Sirfetch'd quality.

Talonflame is an excellent mon at A+, and it's doing way more than 'just fishing for burns'. Not only can you come in on any move, you're able to do so and actually threaten Sirfetch'd, which is more than you can say for the likes of crapmons like Sylveon. You can Roost, and between Brave Bird damage and Flame Body risks, Sirfetch'd is not busting Talonflame down that well, and even if it does it'll be half dead which is fine and not broken. I can tell you from experience. And, about Knock Off. If they have a partner with SR, you have a partner with Defog or Rapid Spin. It's called team support.
I will confess, however, that if you Crit Brave Bird -> Crit Quick Attack with no Flame Body Burns, then you might just manage to do it. Apart from meme sets getting very lucky? No.

Not that anyone has directly said it out loud, but I will just add for the record: I think that the idea that [every form of damage needs to be Wished/Roosted/Recovered off reliably] is asinine.

re: First Impression

teams can't reliably pick it off because of First Impression killing weakened threatens like Mowtom or Stoise.

I think people are overreacting to this move, bigtime. First Impression does not prevent you from getting revenge killed, full stop. There's a few critters like (offensive) Starmie and Rotom-Mow that are immediately threatened by First Impression regardless of HP, assuming they face off turn 1 or Sirfetch'd comes in to RK them. It's a decent priority move, but unlike other forms of priority, this one doesn't preclude getting revenged by faster mons, as it only works on the first turn out. Furthermore, for every offensive threat you can significantly threaten to RK with First Impression, there's another that it's deadweight against. You threaten Inteleon, with it, you don't threaten Salazzle with it. You threaten Decidueye with it, you don't threaten Braviary with it. This doesn't seem broken.

And, it's also a move that gets utterly blocked by Protect in a game where Protect has plenty of applications such as scouting. I maintain that this move only sticks out because there's so little good priority available, and that removing it would be bad for the meta, not good.

Between that and my post about Fightings in general, that's all I have to say. Please don't offer yet another Fighting wallbreaker to the alter of bad Fighting resists. Two is enough; arguably too many.


Balanced pokemon. Agree with Corthius ; NP sets are way more dangerous than SubTox.


I don't think I need to add anything at this point.

 

[skierdude101]

re: hard to wall + The Sylveon Rant

Well, yes, but also no. It's hard (but not impossible) to wall Sirfetch'd with something that has Roost or Recover or Wish. On the other hand, it's fairly simple to ruin the duck's life with things that have Pain Split. Again, I will not let you ignore our Poisons like Qwilfish, Garbodor, and Weezing.

'But Mari, they get 2HKO'd by Brave Bird!'

Sirfetch'd is also practically killing itself if it insists on blasting through with Brave Bird, especially as far as Garbodor is concerned.

Two meaningfully fat Ghosts in (Colbur?) Cofagrigus and Runerigus can switch in at least once due to their Abilities. With the exception of Pallossand, every other Ghost would be rolling some risky dice trying to come in on CC even if there was no Scrappy involved. Not that I think we should entertain the idea of just banning Scrappy Fightings until Ghosts are good again. When all you have to do to stonewall the entire meta is bring one fat Normal and one fat Ghost, things get stale. Maybe I'm wrong and just speaking for myself, but I don't think most of us wanna go back to the kind of meta we had when Miltank/Cofagrigus/Decidueye were completely running the tier.

You'll have a hard time walling Sirfetch'd with Sylveon. Not because Sirfetch'd is broken, but because Sylveon is only good at walling weak Fightings, nothing strong with a secondary STAB or good coverage like Facade. Stop posting about Sylveon. Sylveon is not relevant to the conversation. Sylveon has never walled any decent Fighting wallbreaker, end of story. Not a unique Sirfetch'd quality.

Talonflame is an excellent mon at A+, and it's doing way more than 'just fishing for burns'. Not only can you come in on any move, you're able to do so and actually threaten Sirfetch'd, which is more than you can say for the likes of crapmons like Sylveon. You can Roost, and between Brave Bird damage and Flame Body risks, Sirfetch'd is not busting Talonflame down that well, and even if it does it'll be half dead which is fine and not broken. I can tell you from experience. And, about Knock Off. If they have a partner with SR, you have a partner with Defog or Rapid Spin. It's called team support.
I will confess, however, that if you Crit Brave Bird -> Crit Quick Attack with no Flame Body Burns, then you might just manage to do it. Apart from meme sets getting very lucky? No.

Not that anyone has directly said it out loud, but I will just add for the record: I think that the idea that [every form of damage needs to be Wished/Roosted/Recovered off reliably] is asinine.

I think Garb is probably the most reliable way of dealing with Fetch'd and probably one of the best we have atm, but I feel it really differenitates itself from Qwilfish and Weezing because of Aftermath.


The issue with these two imo is that they get knocked the first time they come in, doing the 1/6 Helmet chip on Sirfetch'd but then can't the next time it comes in. Qwil can at least EV to outspeed.

All 3 of these mons are pretty much dedicated "sacks" to Sirfetch'd. They do provide other utility to your team for sure, but the main reason I use them at least, is so that whenever I come up against a Fetch'd I have essentially a planned sack that lets me make some sort of progress with Helmet chip + setting up a spike or something.



Again, these two pretty much come in once/twice to Sirfetch'd and are essentially throw away mons for once the Fetch'd comes in. Unless they're Colbur, they die to Leek Fetch'd (Adamant vs Jolly matters) if it gets a Crit with either of the moves.


I don't get why you hate the cute doggo so much XD. The line of thinking is more that these mons being able to get past Sylveon means there is one fewer check available to you in the builder. Sylveon still checks something like Scarf Passimian (Gunk damage is pitiful) or SD Gallade.


Pretty good Sirfethch'd check, but dismissing the advantage that Knock Off provides against Talonflame to something that can be accounted for with team support is pretty lame, especially since there's only about 5 decent Defog+Rapid Spinners in the tier (including Talonflame...)

First Impression
Totally agree with you on this. We need priority and this is a great tool for teams in general. It does create some nasty 50/50s where you can bring in Fetch'd on say Starmie, but I don't find this to be the problematic part of Fetch'd at all.

Between that and my post about Fightings in general, that's all I have to say. Please don't offer yet another Fighting wallbreaker to the alter of bad Fighting resists. Two is enough; arguably too many.

I really liked your post about Fightings in general, I think the way we were looking at Fighting checks as "good" was if they checked Mienshao, which is a completely different thing than checking the Breaker 4 (Bewear, Pangoro, Sirfetch'd, Machamp). I feel like the conclusion I come to though is different, like yeah, we can bring Garbodor and Weezing back to their former glory, but they still don't sufficiently handle Sirfetch'd imo. Our tier just doesn't have the best tools to handle it, as it also didn't for Bewear and Pangoro.


Idk if this mon would be okay if Sirfetch'd leaves. Its the obvious replacement, but has a really similar issue where nothing really likes switching into it. It's a bit easier to handle since its base speed is lower (allowing more things to creep it while maintaining bulk) and Flame Orb's "downsides" (6% chip each turn and needing a "safe" turn on the field to get it activated).


Get this mon outta here.


I think its fine rn, would rather focus on Sirfetch'd and Blastoise first. Then maybe Machamp+Salazzle.

 

[turtledoggo1]

Hi people, Turtle here. Got inspired to make one of these posts after seeing the UU version. Essentially it's just a usage reflection post, talking about some of the meta changes and Pokemon that have gotten better/worse. A lot of changes has happened after the April shifts, most notably snow warning gone as well as some metagame staples such as gastrodon and golisipod rising to RU.

April 1630 Usage

+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Copperajah | 22.75512% | 17183 | 15.955% | 14825 | 17.175% |
| 2 | Rotom-Mow | 20.25093% | 17935 | 16.653% | 15080 | 17.470% |
| 3 | Flygon | 19.95447% | 21536 | 19.996% | 17200 | 19.926% |
| 4 | Sylveon | 17.38042% | 17723 | 16.456% | 13764 | 15.946% |
| 5 | Vaporeon | 16.58874% | 7595 | 7.052% | 6417 | 7.434% |
| 6 | Bronzong | 16.52295% | 16399 | 15.227% | 14610 | 16.926% |
| 7 | Drapion | 14.60013% | 13293 | 12.343% | 10947 | 12.682% |
| 8 | Mudsdale | 14.52244% | 11311 | 10.502% | 9794 | 11.346% |
| 9 | Sirfetch'd | 14.43950% | 11788 | 10.945% | 9479 | 10.981% |
| 10 | Salazzle | 13.80094% | 15853 | 14.720% | 12054 | 13.965% |
| 11 | Decidueye | 13.07929% | 10678 | 9.915% | 8327 | 9.647% |
| 12 | Talonflame | 12.64991% | 6736 | 6.254% | 5637 | 6.530% |
| 13 | Arcanine | 12.56415% | 22485 | 20.877% | 18427 | 21.348% |
| 14 | Starmie | 12.49868% | 14966 | 13.896% | 11859 | 13.739% |
| 15 | Dragalge | 11.91616% | 9328 | 8.661% | 7468 | 8.652% |
| 16 | Golisopod | 11.56593% | 9954 | 9.242% | 8307 | 9.624% |
| 17 | Blastoise | 10.80569% | 15957 | 14.816% | 12510 | 14.493% |
| 18 | Tyrantrum | 10.23844% | 12901 | 11.979% | 9563 | 11.079% |
| 19 | Sandslash-Alola | 9.86618% | 4345 | 4.034% | 3365 | 3.898% |
| 20 | Arctovish | 9.65557% | 4262 | 3.957% | 3521 | 4.079% |
| 21 | Escavalier | 9.61026% | 9729 | 9.033% | 8275 | 9.587% |
| 22 | Diancie | 9.35330% | 9520 | 8.839% | 8027 | 9.299% |
| 23 | Vanilluxe | 9.29007% | 3851 | 3.576% | 3075 | 3.562% |
| 24 | Aurorus | 8.93524% | 3744 | 3.476% | 3577 | 4.144% |
| 25 | Espeon | 8.87167% | 12992 | 12.063% | 10265 | 11.892% |
| 26 | Dhelmise | 8.79670% | 8627 | 8.010% | 7052 | 8.170% |
| 27 | Mantine | 8.61001% | 9580 | 8.895% | 7863 | 9.109% |
| 28 | Braviary | 8.58536% | 5981 | 5.553% | 4627 | 5.360% |
| 29 | Gastrodon | 8.38119% | 11566 | 10.739% | 9493 | 10.998% |
| 30 | Aerodactyl | 8.23740% | 14584 | 13.541% | 12013 | 13.917% |
| 31 | Goodra | 8.13224% | 10938 | 10.156% | 8664 | 10.037% |
| 32 | Cresselia | 8.00481% | 6194 | 5.751% | 4881 | 5.655% |
| 33 | Zoroark | 7.70385% | 10959 | 10.175% | 4256 | 4.931% |
| 34 | Golurk | 7.22663% | 9444 | 8.769% | 7514 | 8.705% |
| 35 | Ninjask | 6.80942% | 6404 | 5.946% | 5246 | 6.078% |
| 36 | Articuno-Galar | 6.72846% | 9137 | 8.484% | 6832 | 7.915% |
| 37 | Comfey | 6.55207% | 9869 | 9.163% | 7336 | 8.499% |
| 38 | Exploud | 6.43040% | 5916 | 5.493% | 4774 | 5.531% |
| 39 | Inteleon | 6.39309% | 10471 | 9.722% | 8091 | 9.373% |
| 40 | Roserade | 6.26128% | 6024 | 5.593% | 4864 | 5.635% |
| 41 | Celebi | 5.77356% | 8180 | 7.595% | 6567 | 7.608% |
| 42 | Guzzlord | 5.63478% | 2547 | 2.365% | 2182 | 2.528% |
| 43 | Vileplume | 5.61923% | 8552 | 7.941% | 6988 | 8.096% |
| 44 | Tauros | 5.45582% | 5098 | 4.734% | 3939 | 4.563% |
| 45 | Passimian | 5.23739% | 3517 | 3.266% | 2921 | 3.384% |
| 46 | Silvally-Ghost | 4.54355% | 2613 | 2.426% | 1999 | 2.316% |


+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ---

May 1630 Usage

+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Flygon | 29.48602% | 20997 | 21.845% | 17150 | 22.189% |
| 2 | Copperajah | 21.98803% | 15094 | 15.704% | 12813 | 16.577% |
| 3 | Vaporeon | 21.17896% | 14174 | 14.746% | 11933 | 15.439% |
| 4 | Sylveon | 20.84284% | 15591 | 16.221% | 12394 | 16.035% |
| 5 | Bronzong | 20.39694% | 16289 | 16.947% | 14564 | 18.843% |
| 6 | Rotom-Mow | 20.07202% | 16238 | 16.894% | 13764 | 17.808% |
| 7 | Mudsdale | 17.86845% | 13330 | 13.868% | 11517 | 14.901% |
| 8 | Blastoise | 15.00902% | 16264 | 16.921% | 12638 | 16.351% |
| 9 | Sirfetch'd | 13.69116% | 12098 | 12.587% | 9731 | 12.590% |
| 10 | Salazzle | 13.66128% | 12731 | 13.245% | 9551 | 12.357% |
| 11 | Xatu | 13.42680% | 5421 | 5.640% | 4539 | 5.873% |
| 12 | Talonflame | 13.42279% | 9594 | 9.981% | 7855 | 10.163% |
| 13 | Starmie | 12.77221% | 12521 | 13.027% | 9987 | 12.921% |
| 14 | Decidueye | 11.75821% | 8414 | 8.754% | 6615 | 8.558% |
| 15 | Diancie | 11.34952% | 10168 | 10.579% | 8570 | 11.088% |
| 16 | Arcanine | 10.92301% | 17502 | 18.209% | 14414 | 18.649% |
| 17 | Dragalge | 10.90585% | 8127 | 8.455% | 6660 | 8.617% |
| 18 | Aerodactyl | 10.82520% | 13394 | 13.935% | 11286 | 14.602% |
| 19 | Drapion | 9.71771% | 10072 | 10.479% | 8260 | 10.687% |
| 20 | Celebi | 9.67279% | 8337 | 8.674% | 6761 | 8.747% |
| 21 | Dhelmise | 9.63636% | 7449 | 7.750% | 6173 | 7.987% |
| 22 | Glastrier | 9.31412% | 5145 | 5.353% | 3888 | 5.030% |
| 23 | Entei | 9.26852% | 5335 | 5.550% | 4388 | 5.677% |
| 24 | Mantine | 9.24749% | 8335 | 8.672% | 6869 | 8.887% |
| 25 | Tyrantrum | 9.20355% | 9494 | 9.877% | 6877 | 8.897% |
| 26 | Guzzlord | 8.15968% | 2939 | 3.058% | 2558 | 3.310% |
| 27 | Espeon | 7.66514% | 11164 | 11.615% | 8794 | 11.378% |
| 28 | Braviary | 7.56468% | 7337 | 7.633% | 5692 | 7.364% |
| 29 | Inteleon | 7.24904% | 9548 | 9.934% | 7441 | 9.627% |
| 30 | Heliolisk | 7.06506% | 3767 | 3.919% | 3079 | 3.984% |
| 31 | Exploud | 6.62490% | 6127 | 6.374% | 4816 | 6.231% |
| 32 | Comfey | 6.35267% | 7743 | 8.056% | 5706 | 7.382% |
| 33 | Ninjask | 5.98781% | 5725 | 5.956% | 4611 | 5.966% |
| 34 | Golurk | 5.76795% | 7585 | 7.891% | 6068 | 7.851% |
| 35 | Zoroark | 5.30126% | 7796 | 8.111% | 3179 | 4.113% |
| 36 | Silvally-Steel | 5.08556% | 2854 | 2.969% | 2510 | 3.247% |
| 37 | Escavalier | 5.08075% | 5752 | 5.984% | 4764 | 6.164% |
| 38 | Goodra | 5.02289% | 8772 | 9.126% | 6864 | 8.881% |
| 39 | Vileplume | 4.98319% | 6460 | 6.721% | 5177 | 6.698% |
| 40 | Articuno-Galar | 4.95203% | 7186 | 7.476% | 5377 | 6.957% |
| 41 | Araquanid | 4.94437% | 8430 | 8.770% | 7393 | 9.565% |
| 42 | Passimian | 4.56077% | 2923 | 3.041% | 2425 | 3.137% |
| 43 | Tauros | 4.54732% | 6098 | 6.344% | 4666 | 6.037% |
| 44 | Toxicroak | 4.54564% | 2844 | 2.959% | 2241 | 2.899% |

Notable Increases

(19.9% -->29.4%) - Flygon usage has been steadily increasing recently and for good reason. More people are exploring bulkier variants, while scarf and offensive variants are still very strong and powerful. Very splashable imo as it can check many Pokemon and maintain momentum, as well as being annoying with toxic. Serves as great speed control too. There was also Entei during the early weeks of April which helped inflate its usage as well.

(16.5%-->21.1%) - Despite hail being gone, Vapeoreon is still an incredible wish passer, arguably better than it was when hail was still around. It has a variety of tools it can use, most notably being able to spread status and phase other Pokemon out. It also walls many Pokemon, and can check dangerous threats such as glastrier and blastoise. A well deserved rise for sure.

(10.8%-->15%) - The April shifts really blessed Blastoise with the removal of three checks in golisipod, gastrodon and roserade. Blastoise has really emerged as one of the most potent set-up sweepers in the metagame, being able to snowball out of control if you aren't careful. (or get haxed lol)
(3.7%-->13.4%) - Xatu has recently SOARED in usage this past month, and for good reason. It has valuable utility, being able to put up screens and spread status, as well as being an incredible hazard deterrent. Being able to come in on many of our rockers such as bronzong, copperajah and mudsdale. While also being able to pivot out. It's also a fighting resist, which is pretty nice as well.

(5.7%-->9.6%) - Not too sure why Celebi usage has risen this much. Perhaps it's due to the Cresselia ban? the increase of Vaporeon? People are exploring offensive sets? It's cool it's seeing more usage though, as personally I think the mon is a little unexplored.

(5.6%-->8.1%) - Guzzlord as been popping off recently and it's not hard to see why. There's few knock off resists in the tier with the few fairies getting destroyed by heavy slam/getting crippled by toxic. It's wallbreaking sets have been doing really good recently with it's ability to spread toxic and heal itself up being extremely good too. The departure of Cresselia along with hail also benifits the throat goat.

(3.2%-->7%) - Helioisk has been pretty good recently being able to check water types like blastoise as well as sitting on non-toxic vaporeon. It has a neat STAB combo with hypervoice + coverage hitting pretty hard. Also serves as a last minute ghost check, albeit not a very good one. Overall really enjoys the increase in water types.
(2.9%-->4.5%) - Similar to helioisk, Toxicroak has been loving the abudance of water types recently. Being able to sit on metagame staples such as Vaporeon. Not much to say about this one but it can be extremely deadly under the right circumstances.

Notable Decreases

(14.6%-->9.7%) - With Cresselia being banned as well as the increase in bulky ground types, Drapion has not been dealing with it well. Though I will say, Drapion is still very threatening without a ground type on the field, especially sd variants. Slept on mon imo but it makes sense as to why its usage fell so much.

(9.6%-->5%) - These days, Escavalier has been having it rough. The bans of snow warning and Cresselia are a huge blow for it, as those were some of it's most important niches differentiating it from other steels. Though knock off is still very valuable, it is outclassed by other knock off users and as a steel type, by bronzong and copperajah. Still decent but not as great as it once was.

(ghost) 4.5%-->2.9% -Silvally-ghost was doing pretty well in the Cresselia meta, using it as set-up fodder and potentially sweeping entire teams. Now, there's much more bulky darks as well as physical walls such as mudsdale. He was doing so well, it's kinda unfortunate how hard he dropped off. Still, it can still be very potent when its checks are weakened. Just not as useful as it once was.

- Not too surprising that all of these completely dropped in usage. They're all pretty bad now that hail is gone, but some of them do have very tiny niches. Such as sandslash's knock off+ hazard setting abilities and Arctovish's wallbreaking powers. Still, they prove to be pretty underwhelming at times, with their usage reflecting that.

Potential drops and rises

This thing is seeing pretty low usage in UU. Which can be good or bad, depending on if you play stall or not. If it ever does drop, it would finally provide stall with an actual good unaware user. Not sure if it would be good on non-stall teams, but maybe, who really knows? It doesn't provide teams with too much utility but serves as a nice check to physical set-up sweepers along with being able to spread status.

It's kind of unfortunate that these two have the possibility of rising to RU, especially flygon. Flygon is such a good glue and key component to many teams, that it's sad thinking about losing it to RU. Celebi is also unfortunate as I think it's still largely unexplored. Though we still have Pokemon that can fill its void such as decidueye and rotom-mow.

To close this post out I will drop some questions if anyone wants to answer. (stolen from the UU one lol)

1. Thoughts on the meta? Are you enjoying it or do you think it needs work? Rate it on a scale of 1-10 (1 is bad and 10 is good)
2. Are there any rises/drops in usage you expected?
3. Conversely, are there any rises/drops in usage that took you by surprise?
4. What trends/Pokemon do you think will continue to see higher usage?
5. Any underrated Pokemon or sets that you have been trying out that you want to share?

Thanks for reading, have a great rest of your week!

 

[Konan the barbarian]

Hi! First time posting in nu.

I like how this tier has been shaping up, and fate determined that some of my faves ended up in nu. I'll put my hands in the air and say right away that I'm not a good player, I take way too little time to act and I never build a team without multiple wacky things thrown in there. For instance, my current team I use on the ladder comprises Weakness Policy Sceptile and... Belch Salazzle? Just to name a couple of mons I love so much I wouldn't go without them, so I might as well go bonkers with them.

It's not them I want to talk about tho, but rather, something I was absolutely shocked to see how effective it was, if only for the surprise factor.

Passimian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Gunk Shot
- Quick Attack
- Knock Off

At first I thought it'd be a joke, but I underestimated how monodimensional people think Passimian is, and also underestimated how good its natural defenses are with a little investment. First off, being a Passimian, it absolutely destroys Sticky Web teams, even moreso since unboosted Ribombee and Galvantula can't do a damn thing to it when it has so much spdef. Another favorable condition that makes me think this is more than a gimmick is, even common physical attacking tanks don't love Passimian much, Golurk will absolutely hate to switch in on a Knock off (unless it has colbur, which... I haven't seen a single one) and Assault Vest Copperajah won't KO in 1 hit and becomes Drain Punch fodder. Ditto the white horse. Salazzle gets mostly checked, Sylveon gets absolutely crushed by Gunk shot, all Bronzong can do to knock you out is Explosion, in fact it's pretty much most of its checks who aren't able to check it anymore when it gets the ability to switch between moves. Speaking of Drain Punch, the attack EVs are there solely to give that single move the punch (heh) it needs to boost its recovery: every other dead turn becomes this way a chance to replenish Passimian's Assault Vest antics. Gunk shot is there because this Passimian's greatest headache would be fairies, of which there's plenty running around, they're even more dangerous to it than birb spam, and of course the poison rate is always nice when you're using it to hit neutrally on the switch. Knock off is pretty self explanatory, Quick attack isn't, and let me tell you, this version of Passimian absolutely *craves* some speed, and even a subpar move like QA suffices when Passimian comes short of so, so many critical knockouts.

Now, it's not all roses for the simian, as strong or supereffective physical attacks will crush it if they aren't coming from a mon it can get decent Drain Punch recovery from, Sirfetch'd is the bane of its existence both from a usage and a face to face standpoint, you need something else to get asleeped for it to check Vileplume, it is susceptible to burns and, because it lacks U-turn, toxins as well, and god forbid there's a Vaporeon on the other side. Having said all that, I believe this is more than a gimmick, and although I don't love Passimian as much as other mons I use, I'd be very happy for it to be seen as more than the default scarfer it's been for 3 gens in a row.

 

[Finchinator]

1. Thoughts on the meta? Are you enjoying it or do you think it needs work? Rate it on a scale of 1-10 (1 is bad and 10 is good)

It's pretty fun, but not perfect. Playing around the prospect of HO and the abundance of potential offensive threats can be hard, especially in the builder, but I think there's a lot of room for competitive games. Overall, I would give it a 6.

2. Are there any rises/drops in usage you expected?

It was just a matter of time until Toxicroak and Xatu grew closer to mainstream again -- they have been and will continue to be relevant NU presences. NP Celebi picking up is a nice little add-on that I thought would have happened a while back, but other sets are so bad that it took people a while to hone-in on this one perhaps. Also, Escavalier does not deserve to drop much -- it is still good despite being harder to fit on to many teams.

4. What trends/Pokemon do you think will continue to see higher usage?

Passimian and Ninjask are both outside of the top 30, but belong in it. I also find Aerodactyl limited and think it will decline over time.

5. Any underrated Pokemon or sets that you have been trying out that you want to share?

Tauros is a great Pokemon with the standard LO set right now, but not many people are catching on. A Ghost immunity and good speed tier even give it a purpose on teams, too.

 

[Mariannabelle]

I took a step back and thought about it again, and I don’t really think that Blastoise is all that much of an issue. Between hard answers like Vaporeon, the take-one-hit crowd like Copper and Dragons, and the attack-as-it-sets-up-and-finish-off-later dynamic works just fine imo. I think that it’s easy to focus a little too much on Blastoise’s optimal scenarios instead of its average ones and in my experience, the anti-Blastoise play has been fairly flexible in-battle. Blastoise also would also be hurt by a potential Light Clay ban in a higher tier.

Rather than more bans, I think that maybe retests for certain NUBL mons would be better. Community input here would be gr8

 

[Pokeslice]

I took a step back and thought about it again, and I don’t really think that Blastoise is all that much of an issue. Between hard answers like Vaporeon, the take-one-hit crowd like Copper and Dragons, and the attack-as-it-sets-up-and-finish-off-later dynamic works just fine imo.

I still think that Stoise is definitely still an issue and deserving of a suspect test in its current form. For a lot of its counterplay, it takes minimal chip to put it into +2 range, such as one or two rounds of hazards to reliably KO Dragalge, SpDef Dhelm, and Croak, or Stoise has set variations that allows it to semi pick and choose what it can and can't beat, with players experimenting with EQ for Dragalge and Copper or the potent Sub variants overriding status among other random techs (S/O Bright Powder Stoise by Ho3n).

Blastoise also would also be hurt by a potential Light Clay ban in a higher tier.

This is why I specified in its current form at the top of the post. I think that Stoise outside of screens is great, but the counterplay is significantly more open, with stuff like Copper, Dragalge, Lisk, etc all actually being able to KO it while eating one hit when, under screens, Stoise can eat a hit and KO its targets back that easily eat 1, but not 2. Setup opportunities under screens, whether with Sub or just straight up SS, are significantly more open. I've even beat 40+ Vap that can't Toxic me with Sub on Screens.

I think that Stoise with a Light Clay/Screens ban is definitely fine, but with Screens, it pushes it way over the top. Imo wait for RU to make their move and go from there. It's very possible that even without Light Clay, Screens Stoise will still be too much, who knows.

Rather than more bans, I think that maybe retests for certain NUBL mons would be better. Community input here would be gr8

Hard disagree. Right now, Fetch'd still exists, which needs to be suspected/banned asap, and a quick look at NUBL shows that legitimately nothing looks like it should come back. Maybe with a Light Clay ban you can make a case for a mon or two? But even then I wouldn't touch anything. Torn is the only one I'd be open to coming back because I never found it broken, but now with Rain banned it's probably a lot easier to beat and wall, although we definitely need the tier to fully settle imo before retesting.

 

[Stories]

Lets talk about gender ratio's in Pokemon.

Here is a relevant list pertinent to the NU tier of Pokemon that are either always male or almost always male that use Physical Attacks

Always Male

Male 87.5% of the time (1:7 ratio)

note that ALL starters and eeveelutions fall into this category

Male 75%% of the time (1:3 ratio)

Now all this is good for one thing; Cute Charm Sylveon. Sylveon is among the Pokemon who are male 85.72% of the time, meaning cute charm will hardly ever come into effect especially in match-up's where it could matter such as Tauros, Tyrantrum, and Braviary most notably (although obviously it matters vs every Pokemon I listed). So this is where I suggest to any Sylveon user to SET YOUR SYLVEON'S GENDER TO FEMALE. This will allow Sylveon to be more likely to activate Cute Charm, which is the same chance as the Flame Body (aka 100%) :)

 

[wooper]

Lets talk about gender ratio's in Pokemon.

Here is a relevant list pertinent to the NU tier of Pokemon that are either always male or almost always male that use Physical Attacks

Always Male

Male 85.72% of the time (1:7 ratio)

note that ALL starters and eeveelutions fall into this category

Male 66.67% of the time (1:3 ratio)

Now all this is good for one thing; Cute Charm Sylveon. Sylveon is among the Pokemon who are male 85.72% of the time, meaning cute charm will hardly ever come into effect especially in match-up's where it could matter such as Tauros, Tyrantrum, and Braviary most notably (although obviously it matters vs every Pokemon I listed). So this is where I suggest to any Sylveon user to SET YOUR SYLVEON'S GENDER TO FEMALE. This will allow Sylveon to be more likely to activate Cute Charm, which is the same chance as the Flame Body (aka 100%) :)

seconding this! i've even recently been changing my pixilate sylveons to female to bluff cute charm, just in case (though im not sure how effective it's been)

 

[Realistic Waters]

Hey NU friends! Personally, I'm not enjoying the current meta right now with how dominant Blastoise and Sirfetch’d are (I'm hoping we can get a suspect/ban soon) but I'm just gonna make a fun post on mons that take advantage of some current meta trends.

Escavalier @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Toxic
- Iron Head
- Megahorn / Protect

Solid counter to Kingdra since its usage has spiked. Between knock off / toxic, it's annoying for balance to switch in. I did start off with Protect but I think Megahorn is more important to hit Guzzlord and forces Vaporeon to Wish stall some more. An additional niche over Bronzong/Copperajah is that it's a guaranteed switch in on Celebi and doesn't fall victim to Glastrier's crunch/close combat coverage (CC fails to OHKO at +2 so you now have an emergency check.)

Heliolisk @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hyper Voice
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot / Surf

Nascar mon for Blastoise (+1 Heliolisk outruns modest +2 Blastoise). You do need some chip since Thunderbolt only does 98.9% with a max roll but thankfully is Heliolisk is guaranteed to take a single +2 Dark Pulse/Ice beam and it does a good job revenge killing Talonflame, Salazzle, Starmie and friends too.

Drapion @ Black Sludge
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (idk EVs lol)
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Toxic Spikes
- Protect

Similar to Escavalier in the case of having something for Critdra but Drapion is better in overall viability. The Dark/Ghost resistances are valuable and T-spikes punishes teams without a poison type. Protect naturally works well together and it also lets you scout on Scarf MowTom/Flygon.

Araquanid @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Toxic
- Sticky Web

Turtledoggo21 mentioned this in the VR thread but I'll speak about it here too. Don't expect this thing to go extremely far but it's an ok-ish check to Blastoise, sits on Vaporeon who try to switch in and being immune to burn/resistance to fire is so good. Mantine being forced to take a toxic isn't ideal which leaves only Vileplume and Toxicroak for guaranteed switch ins. (Dragalge is a little too squishy for repeated switch ins)

Celebi @ Choice Specs
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere
- Shadow Ball

Underrated set, please try this out guys! Nasty Plot has a moveslot syndrome so you can't have coverage for everything but now, AoA lets you hit everything with immediate power!! Punish Talonflame, Bronzong and Guzzlord balance teams all in one and being able to 2HKO the entire tier at worst is amazing. (other than AV Goodra meme/Escavalier with low usage)

Togedemaru @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zing Zap
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Nuzzle / Toxic

More niche than the others. Ugh Scarf Rotom Mow is so good there's almost nothing stopping it but this gives you another option for a volt switch block other than Flygon. It has an easier time with water/flying types too and nuzzle allows you to stop a dangerous sweeper / annoy random things. Flinches are always great too...

 

[Ren-chon]

Can't make a long post because I'm on phone but for the users worried about how overbearing blastoise has been and the rise in usage of critdra (and I honestly agree they've been showing to be a bit too good for the tier), there's a thread made by the RU folks discussing about screens and potentially banning them or light clay which would, obviously, hit the viability of screens HO in our tier. Considering how stoise and critdra are (still) mostly used in screens, it's worth keeping close attention to what RU or UU might decide on as it could lead to the broken dogs becoming more manageable after a potential ban.

 

[Pabloaram]

Can't make a long post because I'm on phone but for the users worried about how overbearing blastoise has been and the rise in usage of critdra (and I honestly agree they've been showing to be a bit too good for the tier), there's a thread made by the RU folks discussing about screens and potentially banning them or light clay which would, obviously, hit the viability of screens HO in our tier. Considering how stoise and critdra are (still) mostly used in screens, it's worth keeping close attention to what RU or UU might decide on as it could lead to the broken dogs becoming more manageable after a potential ban.

In UU are also talking about banning Light Clay with Grimmsnarl Gyarados and friends

Araquanid @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Atk / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Leech Life
- Toxic
- Sticky Web

You are better using sub last if you want to check Vaporeon. Mostly bc Leech Life recover you to the top bc Vapo has such huge Hp stat. Plus you win the 1v1 against mowtom if they switch in your sub

 

[Mr.Bossaru]

why must it be back, why must we cursed by this ice horse once again
-
its to good for nu period, Ill just run blastiose on every team I guess

Blastoise @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aura Sphere
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon

 

[Finchinator]

Light Clay is now banned from RU, which trickles down to NU. Pretty big due to the recent prominence of screens teams.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Q: With Light Clay banned, is HO still viable in NU?
A: Yes!

HO expert HO3nConfirm3d here to give you guys the update on how HO survived the Light Clay ban. Believe it or not, Screens HO is still doing fine! It almost hasn't been noticeable and old teams only need a couple updates in the builder to get them back and running. More so, other HO playstyles coexist with Screens and are just as good; 1 lead + 5 sweepers, Focus Sash spam, and Sticky Web HOs all come to mind. All of our broken sweepers still do a great job at pressuring teams and finding lines to win, and only a small update on teams is needed with Light Clay gone.

Here's my new take on Xatu:

Xatu @ Colbur Berry / No Item / Wacan Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Thunder Wave
- Teleport

Fact of the matter is, Screens + Teleport gives sweepers enough bulk to setup for at least one turn, and the lack of Light Clay doesn't actually affect too much except maybe being more susceptible to revenge killers + priority later on. However, the tradeoff here is that Xatu itself is buffed by having an alternative defensive item, which creates more opportunities to set screens.

Colbur Berry works the best right now to patch Xatu's most relevant weakness to Dark. Thunder Wave is phenomenal with Colbur Berry, with Sirfetch'd, Drapion, Tauros, and Guzzlord often switching in on or attempting to break Xatu. Once they're paralyzed, there's a good chance sweepers like Glastrier and Substitute Blastoise will break / hax through them later on. Another option is just having no item at all, and that helps against Poltergeist Pokemon and of course also works vs Knock Off users. In general though I found Colbur Berry superior as my HOs already support sweepers that destroy opposing Ghost-types, and Xatu does well enough with a usually faster Reflect versus them anyways. The only other item worth it would be Wacan Berry, as Electric-types often are a nuisance to HO, but an unpredictable Light Screen + Teleport could turn the table. What I wouldn't recommend is Heavy-Duty Boots because any good Xatu HO should never let Stealth Rocks on the field in the first place. A buffed Xatu goes a long way and the lack of Light Clay is almost trivial in its consequences.

+

Leads on HO do their best with Stealth Rock prevention more than actually setting Stealth Rock themselves, as again there a ton of sweepers that want hazards off the field rather on. That's what makes Aerodactyl and Kabutops better than alternatives like Uxie, Aggron, and Druddigon, although those leads and more still work in the right context. It may sound counterintuitive, but the defensive value of no hazards is heavily in the favor of NU's sweepers rather than NU's walls. Focus Sash Salazzle is a must have because it's already fast and strong enough to clean, and tanking an extra hit from revenge killers legit means the opp is forced to sack another mon; on HO, that's an unbelievably good trade! There's also stallbreakers like Glastrier and Bravairy that are just begging to hold Leftovers instead of Heavy-Duty Boots, and there's even more potential Focus Sash users like Blastoise and Omastar that can beat some checks like Copperajah thanks to the extra hit.

My last piece of advice when building HO is to be creative. There's a ton of mons in the lower tiers with crazy setup moves and options. Here's some of the sets I've used or seen: Accrobatics SD Talonflame, RP Golurk + SD Decidueye Poltergeist spam, double Water-type sweepers with Blastoise / Kingdra + Inteleon + Starmie, Weakness Policy Comfey, SD Virizion... the list goes on.

HO is still a solid playstyle. It takes an observant eye to find meta trends, especially defensive ones, and build a core of sweepers to rip the meta to shreds.

 

[Pokeslice]

To continue the discussion on the recent Light Clay ban, I legitimately could not be happier, and I spam Screens HO myself. Banning Light Clay has given us some respite from this demon.

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I think that Stoise with a Light Clay/Screens ban is definitely fine, but with Screens, it pushes it way over the top.

I said this in a post a few weeks ago, and I definitely stand by it. When teambuilding, you will almost always have sufficient counterplay to Stoise in some way, whether it be Water Absorbers, Vap / Mantine, Grass-types, Copper, Dragalge, etc. When under screens, every single one of them gets beat by Stoise, almost always regardless of the set. Sub will beat Vap and Mantine, Grass-types can't KO back and get 2hkoed with ease, and so do Copper and Dragalge. Now though, the insane support from screens for Stoise is (hopefully) neutured a bit, making checking it a LOT easier. Here's some I've enjoyed using.

- The classic bulky water. With 40+ Spdef you will always live 2 +4 Dark Pulses, letting you wish up and stall it out with Toxic, Scalds, consistent Haze's, or even Roar. Splashable and mostly reliably, although Sub variants can beat certain Vap's depending on the situation.

- Really similar to Vap and does the exact same thing, no need to explain.

/ / - Bulkier Grass-types in general are a great way to beat Stoise. All of these will eat any hit from full, even a +2 Ice Beam, and for Sub variants that only run Dark Pulse and Surf, SpDef Dhelmise will do a fantastic job, especially if Colbur, and Virizion will resist both attacks, making it super consistent. Oh, also S/O to the legendary Yache Psych Up Virizion.

- Both Assault Vest and normal Leftovers sets will take around half from +2 Surfs and KO with Power Whip (as long as they aren't behind screens)

- Similar to the Grass-types, non-Ice Beam variants will be walled and beat by Dragalge and it can even live a hit from full and KO with Draco. Watch out for random af EQ variants.

/ - Two Water Absorbers that make sweeping difficult. Heliolisk has the benefit of being the only Scarfer at the moment that outspeeds +2 Stoise, and then KO's it with Thunderbolt, while Toxicroak can switch in and beat Sub variants handedly since it resists/is immune to its moves and it can also survive an Ice Beam from full, laying off huge damage and KOing it.

- First Impression is just a simple way to pick off weakened threats in general, including Blastoise. This applies to most priority in the tier, including stuff like Shadow Sneak from Decid, Croak Sucker, or goated Absol.

T Spikes! - one of the simplest and easiest ways to stop Blastoise is to severely hinder it as it comes in, and with Toxic Spikes, you can reliably stop a sweep either by simply Protect stalling, living a hit, or just getting some chip and letting poison do the rest. one of Blastoise's biggest annoyances.

Obviously this list isn't complete, but I do want to point out that none of this counterplay reliably exists behind screens. I think the UU and RU ban of Light Clay has put us in a position where Stoise is just a good wincon, not the terrifying, unstoppable sweeper it sometimes can be, so S/O to those councils and BAN FETCHD NOW so the tier is finally saved

 

[Pokedots]

Roar/Whirlwind are underrated options in this meta. Although they cost you a more universally useful move slot in status or coverage, they provide the benefits of phazing in general and specifically allow you to completely take away Vaporeon and Sylveon's recovery, making them far easier to wear down, especially if paired with Knock Off support. Roar and Whirlwind bypass Protect, making it so Vaporeon can only recover itself if it phases you out first with its own Roar. This opens the door for things like Blastoise to sweep more easily. WishTect is solid recovery but also very exploitable, and with Vaporeon so common Roar and Whirlwind have become decent options.

 

[Realistic Waters]

@ NU council members or whoever runs this tier

I generally want to know why there hasn't been a suspect for Blastoise or Sirfetch’d. Even if you don't agree that they're completely broken, both mons invalidate playstyles and certain mons. This has basically turned this tier into stale boring balanced forced to use Vaporeon, Talonflame and Weezing on every team or hyper offense sash squads. I don't really have much else to say since everything been said already above about these two but I've been trying to push for suspects/bans for months now and I also feel a lot of people in this community have been wondering about this too.