NP: NU Stage 6 - Fn Pig (Emboar banned from NU)

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Kiyo

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#1

^^click on me for the shitty song with a fitting title^^

Hello, going into NU's next stage, we're moving forward by suspect testing Emboar.

Emboar is one of NU's most formidable offensive Pokemon. Insanely good dual-STAB moves backed by Reckless-boosted Wild Charge and high base Attack limit the tier's defensive counterplay to this behemoth. The sets Emboar can effectively run range from Choice Band and Choice Scarf to Grassium- and Fightinium-Z, making preparing for it and playing against it even more of a nightmare. The list of defensive checks & counters to Emboar is relatively small, limiting the options of players when teambuilding. For these reasons the NU Council has deemed Emboar worthy of a suspect test.

Emboar will be allowed on the ladder during this suspect test.

We'll be using a new format for reqs this time around. The voting requirements will be a minimum of 80 GXE as well as a minimum game count + gxe of 120 (more details below). This suspect period will last for 10 days, ending Saturday, February 17th at 11:59 PM EDT.

GXE ≥ 80
GXE + battle count ≥ 120

Here are some examples of GXE and battle count to give you a better idea of the goal:
80 (GXE) + 41 (battle count) = 121 ≥ 120 Reqs Achieved (Both Minimum GXE and GXE+battle count total meet the requirements)
87 (GXE) + 34 (battle count) = 121 ≥ 120 Reqs Achieved (Both Minimum GXE and GXE+battle count total meet the requirements)
82 (GXE) + 34 (battle count) = 116 ≤ 120 Reqs NOT Achieved (Minimum GXE + Battle count total does not meet the requirements)
79 (GXE) + 51 (battle count) = 130 ≥ 120 Reqs NOT Achieved (Minimum GXE not achieved)

Reqs for NU Council members will be slightly different and are as follows: minimum 35 games w/ a gxe of 80 or higher + post(s) in this thread

Tagging the The Immortal for the ladder.

/!\ Rules for posting in this thread /!\

  1. No one liners nor uninformed posts;
  2. No discussion on other potential suspects;
  3. No discussion on the suspect process;
  4. You are required to make respectful posts;
Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result into your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
 
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#2
Emboar is the perfect example of a mon that quite literally gets better every shift (Meloetta banned, Barbaracle banned, Seismitoad rise) and at its peak right now feels to a team builder strains teams to a degree like a damn handcuff. After the Seismitoad rise, counterplay to spamming 3 moves on scarf and getting free-ass kills reduces down to about:
1) damn near sacking a rocky helmet mon (This is where BU Z crystal shines)
2)
Slowbro (loses to +1 Electrium and lured by last move toxic scarf)
Altaria (gets fingerbanged royally by rising Head Smash and banded wild charge after rocks = L).
Pyukumuku (only fits on stall/superfat balance)
Gastrodon (underrated but basically forces you to recover if it superpowers especially banded and +1 Z Superpower is a KO)
WishPhox (also underrated however wild charge after rocks = killed, as well as banded charge and BU Z crystal)
Palossand (you literally only need a spike and/or a rock to tilt the kill in your favor and it can't even afford leftovers)
(Now notice how all the defensive counterplay is slow and passive so you'll have to shove these on to balance and hope you don't get lured not to mention more difficult to put in more offensive oriented teams)
3) [[Protect]] scouting into resist (also rekt by BU Z-crystal and non-choice in general)
The sets:
I think it's safe to say that while only really the choice scarf sets "push the envelope", the bulk up Z-crystal sets pretty much nab a kill against any slower fat balance, and Band while not at its best right now as counterplay is easier, hurts like a motherfucker and eats any balance relying on a soft check (can kill fucking Rhydon from full, also shits on WishPhox). Most of the time, you'll assume its scarf but the last moveslot will always cover what little counterplay it previously lacked (EQ, HS, Toxic, Grass Knot even) and you'll be forced to essentially scout it out. To make matters worse, Emboar will likely force the switch which could equate in a bulk up or if it's band, brutalize the hell of whatever comes in.
Conclusion:
Is Emboar busted? Well, busted in the sense that it will do its job effectively, efficiently, and then some a large portion of games its played in. I mean we can see this live practice on how much it streamlines teambuilds in SPL. Take a drink for every time you see Emboar, Altaria, and Slowbro. No don't actually do that, just ban piggy.
 
#3
Hello,

i wanna give my thoughts on Emboar aswell.
I find it pretty difficult to switch into Emboar. I played some NU games in the past and the amount of difficulties it can give you already with the teambuilding process is quite overwhelming. I run phys def Slowbro but even this tanky water type cant be enough imho. the z wilde charge set still quite overwhelms slowbro.

252+ Atk Emboar Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 276-326 (70 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Delphox isnt bad against Emboar but since Emboar also gets sucker punch in his movepool u have to predict the sucker punch mindgames:
Delphox could either be heavily damaged: 252+ Atk Emboar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 212-250 (72.8 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Or if you predict the set wrong on the many sets Boar can run: 252+ Atk Choice Band Emboar Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Delphox: 316-374 (108.5 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO just could get one shot.

Scouting the many emboar sets also isnt that easy without letting your pkmn get dmged to a significant amount.
Here a replay of how difficult it is to switchin into emboar: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-674799610
I sacked my Ninetales turn 3 because i didnt wanted to get my slowbro damaged with a direct switchin.
Turn 23 I hoped my golbat survives the blitz just to suicide defog for slowbro coming in after, because i didnt want to get my slowbro hurt by the amount of hazards on the field to have as many HP for emboar as possible. Turn 29 i finally got rid of it due to the recoil + aftermath on garb.
With all it being said I think eboar is quite overwhelming for the NU tier currently and I would vote BAN due to multiple reasons.
 
#4
There is no doubt about it, Emboar is an amazing wallbreaker/cleaner. But I feel it does that job “too” amazing. Let’s start with its ability Reckless. STAB Reckless boosted Flare Blitz, Reckless boosted Wild Charge to hit the only things that resist its STAB combination besides Delphox and Altaria like Swanna (Which isn’t good rn), and Slowbro/king. It also has Sucker Punch to hit Delphox anyways. The argument with Emboar is that it’s worn down too easily due to its main STAB moves such as Flare Blitz and Superpower being too risky to throw out, but the risk is worth it considering it has a monsterous 123 Attack stat so it doesn’t matter too much anyways. There is also the argument of its low speed tier but most defensive mons don’t outspeed it anyways and it can run a solid scarf set since the fastest viable mon in the tier has 120 Speed and most of them are OHKO’d by the swine. Emboar is a mon that forces strict teambuilding, and careful plays. NU’s strongest defensive switch in to it is Altaria which is 2HKO’d by Band Wild Charge after rocks.

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Altaria: 156-184 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So yeah, I agree that it deserves a ban.
 
#5
Emboar has been one of the most consistently good 'top-tier' Pokemon in the tier since Barbaracle was banned last year, but for the most part it was somewhat manageable thanks to the omnipresence of great bulky Water-types like Seismitoad, Vaporeon, Slowbro, Slowking, and Jellicent. . However, recent meta trends of the past three months have shifted the dynamics of the tier, as we've lost Seismitoad and gained both Venusaur and Heliolisk. Losing Seismitoad was a huge boon for Emboar, as it was quite often used as glue on offense and balance teams that couldn't afford to run more passive Water-types, whilst both Venusaur and Heliolisk are two of the best 'anti water-types' measures in the tier and very influential in their own right.

To make matters worse, with Sneasel, Klinklang, and Toxicroak becoming increasingly common and dominant, Emboar's usage and splash-ability just continues to shoot upwards, as the opportunity cost of using it's scarf set is incredibly minimal. Recently, other effective sets such as Bulk Up Fightinium-Z (To nuke Gastrodon, Druddigon, and Mega Audino among others), Expert Belt, and Electrium-Z have seen a spike in usage in competitive tournaments such as SPL and have highlighted the ease Emboar has in being able to pick and choose which counters it wants to remove without sacrificing too much usefulness. Although having a variety of great sets doesn't make something broken, the fact is that a lot of these sets are very good and almost impossible to cover in one or two teamslots. This makes preparing for Emboar an incredibly difficult chore for basically every archetype, resulting in a meta where specific Pokemon are a necessity in order to not be put at a disadvantage from team preview (As evident through Slowbro's massive tour usage as a blanket Emboar check).

Emboar's presence in teambuilding is just as restricting even if you don't end up facing it, and has stagnated the tier's ability to develop. Both on paper and in practice, Emboar's list of checks and counters is far too small, and it shrinks even more once you take into account the versatility of it's sets. The sheer flexibility it has in choosing its own sets without any negative consequences directly facilitates the linear growth of the tier, and I feel that if we don't ban Emboar, it will continue to become more and more limited in variety and prevent any healthy progress.

Tldr; Emboar has taken advantage of every recent meta change, it's power, coverage, and versatility leaves it with an incredibly small pool of checks, and it is far too difficult to consistently check without resorting to this same group of checks repeatedly which has lead to a meta which is very limited in diversity. Therefore I'm voting to Ban Emboar.
 
#6
Tfw you start playing again after more than a year and NU got Slowbro????

Anyway, first things first, this 'mon is busted. I was REALLY against the idea of banning pig until I sent Slowbro against it and got a z-wcharge on the face. That said, this is the problem number 1 with him: the versatility. You want to lure stuff or have a wincon against fat, slow teams? BU with z-move. You want to punch holes? CB. Your team is weak against the whole damn tier and you want to pretend it isn't? Just run scarf and outspeed everything while still hitting like a truck because why not. Having this many GOOD sets is probably what makes Emboar so broken. Those aren't some niche options that your grandfather used once in a civil war in Congo or something, they are straight up good to the point preparing (and playing) against him turns into a nightmare because there's no telling what the heck he will pull off. Take SPL and ladder as an example: in both, pretty much all Emboar sets, from scarf to z-move, are seeing usage AND success. The first has amazing coverage in just three moves, leaving the 4th to whatever else you need (Toxic, Head Smash, heck I've even used Sunny Day with Chlorophyll Venusaur); and the latter option pretty much steamrolls through slower teams by taking on things like Slowbro/king, Gastrodon, Druddigon, Pyukumuku, among others depending on what z-stone you are running. And that's not getting in details with other sets, like EBelt (less effective without Seismitoad around, but still usable) or CB, if you hate stall as much as I do.

Second of all, the tier shifts. With the drops of Venusaur and Heliolisk offering more options against water-types coupled with the rise of Seismitoad (which, in turn, made Klinklang, Toxicroak and Sneasel even better. Guess who checks those? Good boy), Emboar benefited SO DAMN MUCH. With venu and helio being great options in the tier, water-types are finding a harder time to thrive in this meta. Samurott, a viable check for Emboar on offensive teams, had his viability pretty much killed; Slowbro/king can no longer just be thrown mindlessly against the fire pig (not that they could before, because you know, the whole unimportant thing about it being more unpredictable than that xxpikachutrainer2006xx guy you face in low ladder) at the risk of giving a free turn to venu or helio; Silvally water proved to be disappointing to say the least compared to steel; and not a water-type but Druddigon also took a bit of a hit to his usage after losing his main selling point of SRing vs Xatu due to the drop in usage of the latter. And, as mentioned before, not only Emboar checks became less common and/or effective, but the things he checks are actually increasing in usage. Klinklang, Toxicroak, Sneasel, and the newly added Venusaur and Heliolisk are being used everywhere, meaning that 1) teams are becoming weaker to emboar, and 2) there's even less reason NOT to use it.

Third, one point that I think wasn't much (if at all) addressed is how bad other scarfers (or faster options) are in general, which only makes it even more of a pain for offense to deal with emboar. Now that we have Heliolisk, it became mandatory to run a ground-type in every single team, making scarf Rot-N way less common. Meanwhile, the increased usage of Slowbro means that Scarf Delphox also doesn't exactly have a nice time around (if it tricks the bro, then it loses to... Emboar). This pretty much leaves only Scyther, Houndoom, Vanilluxe and Braviary if Scarf, and Accelgor as faster options. You won't believe me if I tell you who beats 3/5 of those!

Last, how much it restricts teambuilding. I pretty much covered this point somewhat in all three other paragraphs, but to talk more about it, I must say that Emboar is unhealthy to the development of the tier itself. It restricts teambuilding to a fearsome degree. As of now, Slowbro already has more usage in SPL than the entirety of Snake Draft. Is that really a sign of a healthy tier? The stress it puts in the building process makes it so that there's little to no space for creativity when it comes to checks, or even to consider other options. Why run Scarf Delphox, if I can use Scarf Emboar? Why use Magmortar or Houndoom if you can use Z-Emboar? Why even use another fire-type at all? It makes teambuilding both lazy, because all teams will have Emboar doing whatever the hell they want to, and extremely stressful because, well, Emboar can do whatever the hell he wants to and there's little to be done about it.

In conclusion, the sheer versatility, coupled with more than favorable tier shifts and almost absolute lack of revenge killers (for the scarf set) makes Emboar a nightmare to play against and a toxic (for Slowbro!) presence in the tier, greatly hitting team diversity and making NU in general less fun to play. So, if it wasn't obvious already, it deserves a ban, preferably taking Heliolisk with him too.
 
#7
Emboar's a hard one for me, since I've used it on almost every team that I've made in NU. Then I sat down and thought about why I was sad and decided "yeah this thing's gotta go". Here's my reasoning:

Yes, Emboar has its checks, like my fun little icon here Garbodor, but that doesn't exclude the fact that Emboar has gotten better with literally every ban we have made up until this point. If Barbaracle was the quake of suspicion, Seismitoad was the wave of reality. Z-Wild Charge got 100% better once Seismitoad left the scene, and adding more versatility to Emboar is what it desperately DIDN'T need to stay in the meta.

As well, Emboar has no switchins. Yes, yes, that's been apparent since day one, but honestly, it's getting very apparent that it's a problem. Emboar just has way too much versatility for NU to handle at this point. Even when Seismitoad was here, Emboar had a way of dealing with it. Emboar has a way with dealing with just about EVERY Pokemon in the NU metagame efficiently (Key word!), and honestly, playing guessing game of which Emboar set is gonna ruin your day today is just straight up annoying. Druddigon is like the only Pokémon that can somewhat reliably stop him and even then Superpower doesn't just tickle.

252 Atk Emboar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 145-172 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
*cough*

Garbodor? Earthquake.
Waters? Wild Charge.
Delphox? Sucker Punch.
The list goes on and on of how Emboar can destroy you no matter what you're packing, and because of that, I'd like to see Emboar Banned. It's a shame, too, since he's one of my favorites.
 
#8
i agree w/ the general sentiment that emboar is too much for the tier, but im not a fan of the reasoning thats been presented so far so im gonna try and make a case based on how i see things.

first off: z wild charge doesnt beat slowbro, it chews from a decent amount of health and has regenerator and it can pivot around to the point where it gets back to a reasonable hp and completely blocks your boar from that point on. if you wanna really lure slowbro you gotta man up and throw on a z-solarbeam and get the prediction right, or find some other way to lure it. sorry thats not rly relevant but it was irking me and i had to say it

i think eternallys right when he's sayin that emboar is restricting in the builder (obviously the mon w/ perfect coverage and real spammable stabs is gonna be a lot to handle in theory), the main thing that i think is dumb about boar compared to smth like sneasel is that if you peep the list of pkmn that can come in and deal w/ an emboar (alt, bro, sandcastle, watervally etc), theyre all incredibly passive answers to it. the mon just doesnt have any good offensive switchins that can come in and force it out as well as actively threaten to do something offensively (and if u think that a toxic from bro or alt is threatening, youre a couple weeks behind the meta) like a sneasel would have w/ gears, emboar (lul) or any kind of offensive z user thats not weak to knock.

basically the restricting part of emboar in the teambuilder isnt just the fact that it has rly good coverage, clawitzer has really good coverage too, its the fact that the tier doesnt rly have the means to provide diversified types of checks and counters for diff playstyles. it forces u to run these passive mons in order to stop it which rly isnt healthy for metagame growth imo and why im gonna vote to ban if magnemite carries me to reqs
 
#9
i agree w/ the general sentiment that emboar is too much for the tier, but im not a fan of the reasoning thats been presented so far so im gonna try and make a case based on how i see things.

first off: z wild charge doesnt beat slowbro, it chews from a decent amount of health and has regenerator and it can pivot around to the point where it gets back to a reasonable hp and completely blocks your boar from that point on. if you wanna really lure slowbro you gotta man up and throw on a z-solarbeam and get the prediction right, or find some other way to lure it. sorry thats not rly relevant but it was irking me and i had to say it

i think eternallys right when he's sayin that emboar is restricting in the builder (obviously the mon w/ perfect coverage and real spammable stabs is gonna be a lot to handle in theory), the main thing that i think is dumb about boar compared to smth like sneasel is that if you peep the list of pkmn that can come in and deal w/ an emboar (alt, bro, sandcastle, watervally etc), theyre all incredibly passive answers to it. the mon just doesnt have any good offensive switchins that can come in and force it out as well as actively threaten to do something offensively (and if u think that a toxic from bro or alt is threatening, youre a couple weeks behind the meta) like a sneasel would have w/ gears, emboar (lul) or any kind of offensive z user thats not weak to knock.

basically the restricting part of emboar in the teambuilder isnt just the fact that it has rly good coverage, clawitzer has really good coverage too, its the fact that the tier doesnt rly have the means to provide diversified types of checks and counters for diff playstyles. it forces u to run these passive mons in order to stop it which rly isnt healthy for metagame growth imo and why im gonna vote to ban if magnemite carries me to reqs
Flare blitz + z-Wild Charge + rocks Kill slowbro so if rocks are up it effectively lures it
252+ Atk Emboar Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 272-322 (69 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 84-99 (21.3 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

So even with all min rolls it is 69 + 21 + 13 = 103%
 
#10
Flare blitz + z-Wild Charge + rocks Kill slowbro so if rocks are up it effectively lures it
252+ Atk Emboar Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 272-322 (69 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 84-99 (21.3 - 25.1%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

So even with all min rolls it is 69 + 21 + 13 = 103%
1. adamant boar
2. you obviously didnt read my post the point is you switch out get regen and then go back to walling it like normal, and yea you gotta guess a move on the switch but thats the whole point of pivoting around
 

Finchinator

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#12
council reqs are beyond hard to get when the ladder takes 5 minutes to find a battle during a weekend evening (had an exam during the week, so postponed laddering until thursday/friday, which normally wouldn't be an issue) and getting haxed out of 1-2 games makes it near impossible in the first place (legit need to go like 31-4 or 32-3) and that's coming from someone who has gotten reqs every single time for the past like year+ (and plenty of times before), so obviously there's some systematic flaws/problems and i'm pretty upset over this personally as i feel it is my duty as a council member to vote, but regardless of that i will voice my opinion even if i am not getting reqs just to at least live up to some of my duty as a council member!

emboar isn't without counters in nu rn, but it is borderline broken on paper nevertheless as that counterplay is quite limited. the choice scarf set really shouldn't get much attention here as it is pretty healthy and whatnot, but the expert belt set is what we should focus on (z sets are niche/bad rn, hope people aren't shedding too much light on them lol). the ebelt set has limited switchins and often functions as a top tier lure considering scarf is so common, but the main downsides are that it is not too fast or fat while also killing itself frequently with recoil, esp vs rh/rough skin Pokemon and with the presence of some tanky dudes out there like slowbro. idk what i'd have voted, but i'd probably lean ban at this point while reserving the right to change that. sneasel has a much worse impact on the metagame and we really dropped the ball with the result of that suspect and honestly if we want the tier to not just be euro-balance simulator 2.0 then keeping emboar might be for the best, but i can easily see arguments being formed for it being broken and those arguments are totally legitimate, so i wouldn't mind either verdict. if it goes, however, we best look into sneasel and have some major tier progressions for new breakers/hard-hitters to pop up if we don't want this tier to go down the path ORAS did, only worse bc more fatmons being present and relevant.

side note: venu and helio are both worth considering in the future imo and ffs this meta sux rn, so maybe it is worth messing around w the tier's current makeup w a ban, i just dunno if this is the optimal one to move ahead w.
 

Kiyo

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#13
Ok I'm done trying to type a lengthy essay on this, here's my thoughts:

council reqs are tough, like way harder than they were intended to be; however, I think normal reqs are in line with what we were going for.

Bulk Up + Z move is Emboar's best set imo. It lets it mitigate the huge weaknesses of scarf, band, and belt by getting past rough skin / rocky helmet recoil as well as actually netting KO's it shouldn't be able to get (CB Wild Charge doesnt OHKO Bro, CB Superpower doesnt OHKO Druddigon, and Z-Wild Charge without bulk up is so insanely bad becuase it does like 75 max to Bro). Z-move either relies on Sucker to deal with faster threats and therefore struggles with slowbro, or foregoes sucker to run wild charge, meaning it struggles with faster foes even more. Scarf and Belt are still great but I think the resources the tier has available are more than enough to deal with those two sets alone (fat water with regen, rs+rh, recoil damage, faster mons threatening belt, scarf being weak enough to check with conventional means (fire and fighting resists), etc). Band is still the most immediately threatening, but people have kinda caught on to the fact that it kills itself and gets forced out way too quickly to actually do much, not to mention its easy to play around for slowbro users because you literally switch in to scout move, see its cb and either stay in if they clicked stabs or get ur regen and go to ground type on the second wild charge.

When you try to think about all the potential sets Emboar can run it may seem a little daunting, but I really don't think the tier is underprepared for it. Each of Emboar's sets have fatal flaws that can be exploited by commonly used Pokemon. I think you could make the argument I'm oversimplifying things, but I really don't see it that way. Offense, Balance, and Stall all have ways of dealing with all Emboar sets, yes they'll struggle with some more than others but it has much more counterplay than people like to admit and that counterplay isnt restricted to the same 4 fat mons that everyone thinks it is.

As far as thoughts on other potential suspects go: I actually really like this meta and I think SPL has shown a lot more diversity than people were originally expecting. It's possible to have fun in this meta and it really rewards people who prep and play well, which is ideal. Venusaur is something I think deserves looking into, but ultimately I don't see it being too much for the tier. I think Heliolisk is overrated, tough to fit onto builds, and isn't as difficult to check as it may seem on paper given its struggles with balancing breaking potential, accuracy, power, and speed. I think keeping Sneasel was probably a better choice than I originally thought it would be, although it does still keep a stranglehold on some more offensive archetypes which i despise. I'd still like to see Xatu suspected if for no reason other than to see whether or not it shapes team structures more heavily than we realize due to restricting what we deem as "viable" rockers. I also think it'd be cool to see Cofagrigus retested at some point, but I'm sure that's another controversial opinion that I hold.
 
#14
might as well do this before i forget

going into it, i was fairly disappointed w/ the results of the sneasel test bc this meta hasnt been that great in terms of playability imo. a lot of the team frameworks end up the same and trying to deviate from the standard balances are fairly hard w/o having to resort to some kind of far out counters to stuff like emboar / sneasel. offense in particular is in a pretty bad place atm as trying to use an offensive team w/ sweepers & hard hitters over >100 speed leaves you incredibly open to sneasel / emboar / klinklang, which leads to whack shit like slowbro/king offenses which arent that optimal imo. emboar is one of the biggest problems in regards to that, as when its using ebelt its impossible to deal w/ if played correctly, even for a standard balance build. i think the only thing holding it back for so long was the necessity / reliance on the scarf set, which is far from its best set.

overall i think there are quite a few things that have a chokehold on the meta that make it extremely stale, and while i dont think emboar is the only problem / will instantly fix the meta, im going to be voting ban because i think its the first step to making a better / more playable meta.
 

Louna

formerly Holiano
is a Tiering Contributor
#16
now that boar has been banned it is more or less obvious that sneasel become stronger, but here is something i'd like to talk about and get your opinion about it guys. i habitually dont post in these threads but it is a ban that i was really looking foward not because i felt emboar was necessarly broken, but because i felt like it was waaaay too restrictive in teambuilding, and i cant wait to see how the metagame will evolve in answer to that huge change.

Incineroar @ Incinium Z
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 SpD / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Darkest Lariat
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake / Leech Life
- Swords Dance

I've been theorymoning a lot around this thing in an Emboar-less metagame, SD Incineroar already was a pretty decent set but too easily pressured due to Emboar being everywhere, but now that bigpig has been banned there are a lot of things that can gain in popularity, and with Sneasel which sounds rly hard to play around cuz most of his sturdy answers are a bit passive, and easily taken advantage of, SD z Incineroar looks like a great choice as it not only can switch in twice on knock off, but also soft check Scarf Vanilluxe once and just dismantle most balanced build which is probably the most consistent play style (in my opinion) due to offense loosing one of their only Sneasel switch in. You can also adapt it to what are your team needs, depending if you need to remove Garbodor without wasting ur Z or just not-that-reliable recovery if you need a sturdier Sneasel answer. I have a little preference for Leech Life personally as it allows you to hit Guzzlord, Houndoom, bypassing eventual slowking's colbur berry and killing a weakened Slowbro if ur at +2 without having to waste ur z move and just having a way to recover life is great on a wallbreaker with so many great resistances/immunity. In addition to all these cool traits, Rocky Helmet Druddigon should drop a bit in usages while grass type as well as Houndoom might gain in popularity which is again a great thing for Incineroar. A Jolly Nature allows you to outspeed Jolly Scrafty which could be used as a Sneasel answer to some point.

I know it is really soon right after the ban but I really wanted to discuss about this and get some other opinions

Im sorry if that sounds like brainstorming but that was more clear in my head and i struggle to structure my ideas :c
 
#17

Good riddance. Jokes aside, this is naturally healthy for the tier at least I believe so despite some saying this will result in fatter styles being more viable. More flexibility beyond using the same 4-5 walls that stop Emboar and a large variety of fire and fighting types aren't straight up outclassed or challenged heavily by a slot that could hold Emboar can be used. Houndoom in particular was a riskier pick with scarf Emboar being a check on every team but now can absolutely tear like 80% of balances and stalls at +2 and I can totally see it rising in the VR in the nearby future as well as the above mentioned breaker Incineroar which actually demolishes and punishes many fatter styles aside from like Pyukumuku and obscure things of that nature.

In terms of future suspects, I don't think anything (besides Sneasel but we're "past that" I guess) is taking a strain on the building as of late. As much as I dislike playing against Type-Null, it hardly sweeps and most of the time will act as a very annoying pivot. Heliolisk is over-hyped as most say. Venusaur is probably highest up on people's "fuck this" list however and I guess later down the line, it can begone but as of the moment it's manageable (we lost a big check tho).

Here's also a cool slight optimization to a set and used a lot during the test.

Whimsicott @ Psychium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Moonblast
- Grass Knot
- Defog/Memento
Probably the best offensive defogger by far and can beat Steelix (on the switch), Druddigon, Rhydon, and pretty much most rockers aside from like Miltank. Z-Psychic beats the good ol' broken Venusaur and Garbodor from being free switch ins (They both die after either very slight chip or after rocks. Psychic into Z-Psychic can kill max/max calm venus after rocks). All the while taking less from potential knocks. I also think prankster defog is a total meme cause you can be blocked by darks (Houndoom and Incineroar can take a moonblast) while you outspeed most of everything you want to defog on and infiltrator does nothing for Whimsi. Chlorophyll helps against the occasional sun team that you might face as you can just z-psychic their Venu for heavy chip or KO. Memento is also a very helpful option for HO helping a Zangoose sweep or whatever.
 
#18
So, now that Emboar is gone I feel that NU will fluctuate a lot with the new mons that will become better here as a result, I feel that such a huge meta shift will make NU very different. Off the top of my head I think that the offensive grass types that were good before emboar/a while ago will be good again, in specific sceptile and Venasuar. I also think that Vanilluxe may become better as well, due to it having very few switch ins already. Vikavolt is also a mon I see rising, as it had traits that made it very good before, and may see a resurgence in usage now.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#19
So, now that Emboar is gone I feel that NU will fluctuate a lot with the new mons that will become better here as a result, I feel that such a huge meta shift will make NU very different. Off the top of my head I think that the offensive grass types that were good before emboar/a while ago will be good again, in specific sceptile and Venasuar. I also think that Vanilluxe may become better as well, due to it having very few switch ins already. Vikavolt is also a mon I see rising, as it had traits that made it very good before, and may see a resurgence in usage now.
I know this is a short kind of post but all the Pokemon you mentioned already flourished in the Emboar meta, so I don’t see how these Pokemon were “good before” or would have a “resurgence” now of all times. Sure, Emboar with some sets would prohibit these Pokemon from doing their jobs, but Emboar struggles to switch into all of these Pokemon in general. So yeah, Emboar being gone means these Pokemon aren’t getting forced out as much, but they certainly aren’t becoming magically good “again” as you say.
 
#20
I know this is a short kind of post but all the Pokemon you mentioned already flourished in the Emboar meta, so I don’t see how these Pokemon were “good before” or would have a “resurgence” now of all times. Sure, Emboar with some sets would prohibit these Pokemon from doing their jobs, but Emboar struggles to switch into all of these Pokemon in general. So yeah, Emboar being gone means these Pokemon aren’t getting forced out as much, but they certainly aren’t becoming magically good “again” as you say.
That wasn't exactly what I meant, but I definitely see how I wasn't being clear enough. Resurgence was more or less used as a fancier way of saying that these pokemon might become better in some ways. I didn't really mean that they were becoming good again, I meant that they were getting even better from before.
 

Kiyo

Spongebob is my favorite anime.
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#21

Shiftry @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Knock Off
- Leaf Storm
- Defog
- Sucker Punch
So I think Shiftry is actually kinda cool again without Emboar around. Knock off remains one of the best moves in the game, Sucker Punch is really good priority right now as theres not a lot of faster stuff that resists it or takes a hit very well, Leaf Storm OHKOes pretty much every rocker that isn't a pixie or Druddigon, and Defog gives offensive teams some nice utility without losing out on power. Realistically Shiftry does all the same stuff it did in ORAS, but now theres not a top 3 Pokemon that resists its dual stabs which is pretty great for it.

What else have you guys been experimenting with? Anything you thing might be the next best thing? How has your teambuilding been going in the new meta?
 

Rabia

IM ME, I DO ME, AND I CHILL
is a Contributor to Smogon
#22
1519767170703.png

Houndoom @ Darkinium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Flame Charge / Hidden Power [Water] / Sludge Bomb

Houndoom is one good boy rn because Fire- and Dark-type coverage is really damn good + Houndoom can decimate many common defensive cores such as Slowbro + MAudino. I like the offensive set especially because of it breaking shit apart similar to Incineroar. Choice Scarf could see a bit of an uptick in usage with Emboar gone given it got cucked by Emboar's typing.

Sneasel seems even more of a fun Pokemon to play against now that Emboar is gone. Not entirely sure how this will go.
 
#25
Finally the Hidden Abilities are released.
For Inceneroar i personally see this set puttin' in alot of work in the NU tier:

Incineroar @ Firium Z / Incinium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Darkest Lariat / Knock Off
- Flare Blitz
- Thunder Punch / Cross Chop / Earthquake

I think Jolly nature is the best nature for it since it is able to outspeed or speed tie with other mons in that speed range.
A Z Move fires off a powerful Stab attack, you can go with either you prefer. Cross Chop / EQ and T-Punch I think are good filler moves, because they hit the likes of Garbodor, Golbat, Heliolisk and Houndoom for SE damage. Knock Off as a powerful Stab or Darkest Lariat with Incinium Z for a 1 time nuke.
 
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