NP: NU Stage 6 - Fn Pig (Emboar banned from NU)

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Virizain

formerly blood red
#26

Sawsbuck @ Normalium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Horn Leech
- Double-Edge
- Agility


This is an old rozes set he made after usum tutors but didn't really get looked into since, why not use Virizion, but I think it could get a fair shot now that the ladder is gone. Grass/Normal is a really anti-meta STABs to have rn imo, you smash standard grass-resists with z-double-edge and in general are a nuisance to wall after you set up Swords Dance. Life Orb is an option to to OHKO phox, whimis, and toxicroak with an unboosted double edge (you outspeed scarf phox after agility) and ohko bro with +2 horn leech, and to have some form of unboosted raw power. It isint as consistent as it would want to be since it hardly scares anything out and is so easily scared out itself, but at the very least it would an improvement upon shit like SD Sceptile that's being used to try and fill in that void.
 

Hootie

is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
C&C & NU Leader
#27
Discussion regarding the state of the metagame has been pretty dead, so I'll break the ice here. Basically council has had ideas for a suspect on their minds for quite some time. The main two up for debate are Sneasel and Slowbro, with the majority of the council favoring a potential Sneasel retest in the near future. We'd like to get a test up for one of the two after the laddering stage of the NU Ladder Tournament is finished, so I'd like for this one week period to be dedicated to discussing the current state of the metagame and what you guys think is most problematic beforehand. Keep in mind that this isn't a democratic vote on what we get to suspect; the council in the end will dictate what gets suspected. What we hope to achieve with this is to better gauge the public opinion and to keep the community from being left in the dark when we do decide to suspect something.
 
#28
Personally I'd lean towards a Slowbro test rather than a Sneasel retest. That said, if either of the 'mons were banned it would shake up the meta by a lot.

Slowbro is the main centralizing force in this metagame IMO. Many sweepers have to run coverage moves basically just to get past it and if an otherwise dangerous mon can't get past Slowbro it's pretty much dead weight.

Sneasel poses as one of the fastest mons in the meta and keeps some 'mons in check that would otherwise run rampant (Mismagius, Sigilyph). While it can stop some of these aggressive mons, it can be held back a bit by SR weakness as well as its frailty.

I could also see a Venu test sometime in the future btw.
 
#29
I almost never reply in np threads mostly just cos I'm too lazy to type out a proper response, but here goes:

SLOWBRO
In the past, I used to hate Slowbro because of how hard it was to break (this was probably around when beta ended I think). Recent meta trends of toxic spam and having strong special attackers that can easily break bro has made it more manageable. However, its still kind of stupid that it walls almost every physical attacker, bar like SD Incineroar and Megahorn Samurott. Heck, before it rose to RU when march stats was released, Virizion had problems KOing Slowbro from full even at +2 unless it was holding life orb. Most special attackers with coverage for bro usually take a chunk out of it, but Slowbro can just switch out, regain 33% of its health and proceed to be annoying. Additionally, aforementioned special attackers have a hard time switching into bro, since bro possesses 100 base SpAtk which still hurts even while uninvested.

Slowbro has become kind of centralizing in the current meta, and it isn't difficult to see why. It has a good stat spread, great ability and decent typing that allows it to be a nuisance to many sweepers and very hard to kill. Water and Psychic-STAB is actually great for NU, hitting everything at least neutrally bar like Guzzlord, which you can just throw a toxic on and proceed to switch out. Colbur and Z-Crystals pretty much makes Knock Off pathetically weak and allows slowbro to subsequently fire off a nuke (if Z-Crystal) or attempt to burn/kill the foe.

Mons like Venusaur, Heliolisk, Mismagius and other special attackers are strong enough to OHKO Slowbro due to its relatively worse SpDef stat. However, few of them enjoy switching in to an attack. Lisk and Missy take like over 50% from Psyshock, Whims gets 3HKO unless it has some HP investment, Saur, if offensive, still takes a chunk from Psyshock and Giga Drain doesn't OHKO while Sp.Def sets can tank more hits at the expense of doing less damage.

Well, originally I started out with the intention of defending Slowbro, but damn it's such a nuisance for offensive teams. Balance and Bulky Offense probably won't have as tough a time dealing with bro, since Toxic is commonly found on such teams, mostly for bro as well. There's also irony in the fact that bro is also mainly found on such team archetypes, but I digress. Slowbro has definitely become a centralizing force in the current meta, and I wouldn't mind seeing a suspect for it.

tl;dr Bro is annoying to everything, please suspect

SNEASEL
I hate this mon (it invalidates most of my favourite mons). Personal bias aside, this thing should have been banned the first time round so that we wouldn't have to deal with it now. Now, I shall attempt to make an unbiased post regarding this mon.

Sneasel, on paper, doesn't look that threatening stat-wise. Poor bulk, decent attack but an excellent speed tier. What pushes it to the border of "broken" is probably its speed tier, which allows it to revenge kill majority of the un-scarfed meta and punish players for little opportunity cost (I'm grasping at words here).

Everyone knows the Knock Off/Pursuit mind games with Sneasel. Some people sort of agree that the Sneasel user doesn't suffer much consequence in most scenarios if he (or she) makes a mistake, while the opponent gets punished harshly for his (or her, I don't assume) error. Sneasel easily punishes poor plays, which make offensive teams less desireable since losing a member could spell defeat if it was your sole check to something like, say, Slowbro. In addition to the Knock Off/Pursuit combo, Sneasel has priority in the form of Ice Shard, useful for finishing weakened scarfers. Icicle Crash is its strongest STAB move of choice, denting all non-resists bar like Steelix. If you're feeling a little wild, you can forego one of the above mentioned moves (mainly pursuit, some times people just don't dare to switch out) and run coverage like Low Kick to hit Steelix and Incineroar harder. Point is, it's kind of annoying playing around baby ice weasel.

From a defensive stand point, it's also annoying. It spams Knock Off and switches out for free barring Stealth Rocks, crippling the mons on the other team (excluding Colbur/Z Bro and Mega-Dino mainly) for your other team mates. It doesn't even need to survive to the late game to be impactful in batte, just as long as it kills what it's supposed to check.

tl;dr I hate this mon, please suspect

Thus concludes this "high" effort post from a low effort user. Sorry if the arguments don't flow, everything I have typed out has been on a whim and done without much thought. But this is pretty much the summation of my opinions and what I have gathered from lurking regarding this two mons.

Further suspects I would like to see would mainly be for Venusaur. It has decent bulk, unpredictabilty that it can run several sets that are all quite effective, and good secondary STAB and coverage in general.
 
#30
Sneasel is an interesting situation because a lot of people just look at it linearly, in the sense that it has a couple decent-ish checks as well as being relatively frail, and equate that to it being balanced. The problem with that is almost all of the Pokemon that generally check Sneasel are completely screwed over by Knock Off and hazards or take a ton from Icicle Crash, for example: Hariyama (Loses AV and suddenly cant blanket check what it needs to), Steelix (Loses Leftovers and easily worn down by other Pokemon it needs to check), Passimian (Loses it's Scarf, no longer able to revenge kill), Mega Audino (SpD takes a big chunk from Icicle Crash, especially if it hasn't mega'd yet), and Incineroar (Doesn't take too much from Sneasel's moves, but worn down extremely fast by Stealth Rock). Another issue with checking Sneasel is that unless you're running Balance (which is by far the most consistent playstyle in the meta due to Sneasel's influence (among others) your counterplay is even more limited because of how fast and strong it is. Hyper Offense in particular is very mediocre at the moment because of it's inherent weakness to Sneasel, and normal Offense struggles as key players such as Heliolisk and Venusaur allow Sneasel to throw off free hits.

That aside, the main reason I've been vouching for Sneasel to be tested in council discussions is the same reason it was suspected last time, trapping, and the effects of it's trapping on warping the meta. Now before anyone says "well just ban Pursuit then", Sneasel isn't broken just because it has Pursuit, it's a combination of Pursuit with it's amazing speed, power, coverage, and STAB Knock Off which makes it the restricting force it is, thus it's not comparable to something like Pursuit Houndoom or Absol. Sneasel's ability to make every Ghost- and almost every Psychic-type in the tier a risk and liability is not healthy, and it's because of this that Slowbro is thriving to the extent that it is now. I strongly believe that if we suspect Sneasel and it does end up getting banned this time, the meta will have a lot more breathing room. Teambuilding and Playing will be much less matchup based, and we'll be able to use things like NP Mismagius, Sigilyph, Haunter, CM Delphox, AV Slowking without having them be fodder for entire matches, which will be very positive for diversity in the tier. The ability to teambuild more freely will definitely reduce the restrain Slowbro has on the tier now, as one of it's best partners which invalidates some of the best ways to beat it will be gone. It's also much more sensible to review Sneasel before Slowbro as Sneasel is the one which is limiting counterplay for Sneasel and not vice versa. If Slowbro still ends up being an issue in a potential post Sneasel meta, then we can deal with it, but it just makes a lot more sense to deal with Sneasel first as it's definitely the most constraining Pokemon in the tier right now.
 

Myosin

wishy fishy
is a Tiering Contributor
#31
One of the biggest changes in the meta recently is the buffs to Incineroar, especially due to the ban of Emboar. Between Intimidate, Swords Dance, and Malicious Moonsault (it's z-move), it has become, in my opinion, one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Now, I bring this up because I feel like these buffs can be one of the things that prevents Sneasel from being suspected. Now Sneasel has always been a massive threat to the tier, and when Emboar was banned, I was almost sure that Sneasel would end up being way too much for the tier. However, I've noticed a big shift in usage of Pokemon such as Incineroar, Passimian, and Hariyama that sort of leave me second guessing. On top of this, Steelix is still the most used Stealth Rocker by far, and even Pokemon such as Ferroseed have risen in usage, both of which can switch into Sneasel and take advantage of the free turn. What I'm trying to get at is I think we should at least let the meta run it's course for a bit longer and see if meta adjustments favor Sneasel too greatly, or shift to the point where Sneasel is no longer problematic.

As for Slowbro, I completely disagree with a suspect. Not only is almost any Slowbro handled quite easily with a simple Toxic, but the rise in prominence of offensive threats such as Venusaur and Heliolisk have been very helpful for dealing with it. The tier benefits from Slowbro by bringing about a check to big threats such as Medicham, Toxicroak, and Klinklang, all of which I could see becoming extremely problematic in the future if Slowbro were to be banned.

So in order to avoid suspect after suspect happening every few weeks, forcing players to continuously adjust to new metas, I think we should just relax and let the meta run its course. Overall I think the meta is pretty healthy; and who knows, give it a few weeks and maybe we'll find out that it was Venusaur or Incineroar that were the most problematic, not Sneasel and Slowbro. Anyways, this is just my two cents, hope this contribution helps! :pimp:
 
#32
ok i have some time so i might as well make a post about what i think about this meta / the topic @ hand w/ the suspects.

personally when the subject was brought up in council i voted for sneasel in terms of what to suspect. while it was only suspected a couple of months ago i think it was still a fairly close vote and that the meta has changed enough since then for it to warrant another test. personally i think one of the biggest examples of how much sneasel has actually shifted the meta w/i the past few months is the rise of a niche xatu set solely due to the fact its always going to lose to sneasel + rocker / spiker otherwise. if you look @ the stats from snake, xatu was much more commonly seen running psychic / u-turn / gknot / roost as its main set because thats what you used to handle the common rockers / spikers. however w/ sneasel being more and more omnipresent as of late, the set has transitioned to night shade / roost / u-turn / protect almost always, with a few colbur sets also thrown in. a lot of what i said about sneasel during the last test still applies to it now, but i think theres just a lot more evidence now of it being fully unhealthy for the tier as its almost impossible to check on hyper offense w/o having to use sweepers like scrafty.

i also feel there is a lot of people that argue that sneasel is only being brought up due to pursuit, and thats not an unhealthy element. while i do agree that pursuit on its own doesnt make sneasel unhealthy, i personally think knock off is a lot scarier in the current meta. while we do have z moves to discourage knock spam to an extent, there is still very little that wants to hard into a cb knock off, especially if you manage to get rocks up as a lot the current solid dark resists dislike taking the combination of the cb knock + rocks multiple times a game. emboar being banned basically forces passimian onto a lot of balance as well, as a lot of other scarfers are pursuit trapped and therefore unable to rk sneasel successfully (delphox / rotom), especially w/ pursuit rhydon catching on right now as well.

also on the topic of slowbro, i do think it is worth looking it, but in the current state of the meta i dont believe its fully unhealthy / deserves to be suspected. while it is omnipresent atm, i think thats just due to the state of the meta being very physically based w/ things like klinklang / passimian / sneasel all being top tier threats atm. however there is still more than enough counterplay to it at the moment, as physical attackers have a lot of tools to get by it, and special attackers can get around it fairly easily. things like heliolisk / venusaur / vanilluxe all dont really have problems w/ slowbro unless its av, and even then its not the hardest thing to play around. overall i do think it is a top tier meta wall, but i think thats just due to how the meta has been shaped and not due to it being unhealthy.
 

poh

I COULD BE BANNED!
#33
While i do agree that Sneasel invalidates slower Psychic and Ghost-types, I feel Sneasel isn't this unhealthy presence a lot of people seem to describe it as. Recent trends show a great adaption to Sneasel including and not limited to: Incineroar, Houndoom, Steelvally, Hariyama, Bullet Punch Toxicroak, even Poliwrath.
Hyper Offense in particular is very mediocre at the moment because of it's inherent weakness to Sneasel, and normal Offense struggles as key players such as Heliolisk and Venusaur allow Sneasel to throw off free hits.
This isn't entirely true. HO does have measures to deal with sneasel such as Z-move Omastar, OTR Aromatisse, BP Croak, Hazard pressure, ...
Something else what makes Sneasel manageable imo is that the tier is bulky enough to take it on / not being too worried of losing items. Even though hazard removal is very common, Sneasel is still very susceptible to hazards meaning it can't switch in multiple times if hazards are up. Regarding the previous test, the implied result of the suspect shouldn't be a reason to hold or not hold a suspect. The proban party would still need 25% more ban votes than last time.

Regarding Slowbro i completely agree with shiloh and Myosin
 
#34
Oh, yipee, this debate again. Look, I'm relatively new and don't entirely understand the definition of a "healthy meta" or junk like that but I've been laddering and playing in tournaments as much as possible to see where this whole "ban sneasel" vs "ban slowbro" vs "stay the course" debate is derived from. Here are my findings:

1) Sneasel:

Sneasel is not broken. Oh no, look at that, I dropped the bombshell just like that. The truth about sneasel is that yes, offensively, its very freaking dangerous, but its no where near what broken is supposed to look like. Case and point: you can only bring it in two different ways. 1) a slow volt/turn (or whatever steelvally does) or 2) the death of a pokemon. And yeah, maybe pokes dont like switching into it, but its not like sneasel stays in all the time. Anything with thick fat, really good physical bulk, or priority that can survive 1-2 hits forces it out so its a non factor. Things like Scrafty and Z Klinklang can set up, Lix and Rhydon get hazards, and a lot of other pokemon simply survive. Not to mention colbur rotom gets to click willowisp and now sneasel is utterly useless. In addition, playing sneasel is very freaking difficult. You have to know when to click pursuit, when knock off is best, what about icicle crash. Its choice band gives it power, but also limits its options. So yes, it does lots of damage when the user plays it just right, but when they play it wrong, they lose a pokemon, maybe even the battle. I'm not going to say a mon like sneasel is healthy for the tier, it does restrict many ghost/flying/psychics, but I will say that there are ways around it and some of the most common pokemon in the meta like inceroar, hariyama, steelix, and a few others good checks.

2) Slowbro:

Broken? No. Real big pain in the ass? Yup. Should it be suspected? Maybe, but more so the sneasel. Look, remember how I said there is a skill gap for sneasel? Well there isn't one for Slowbro. It legitimately halts a quarter of the tier on its own. Think about that. Any physical attacking mon loses to slowbro one on one. "But it isnt a one on one its a six on six". Well, fuck that, cuz this bitch has regenerator. So now it can practically stall out half a team's offensive power on its own, freeing up 5 slots for you to do whatever the hell you want with the other 5 pokemon. And get this, slowbro is easily the most splashable pokemon in the tier. It is by far the most common that I've experienced and its very difficult to have success against/without. You wanna say sneasel stunts hyper offense? Slowpro obliterates it. Scald is too annoying for physical attacks, walls eat a toxic, aside from guzzlord, slowbro hits neutrally on every dark type (and still has toxic) and makes it so nothing really wants to switch in. Slowbro never dies and always has to be considered when teambuilding. All you really need is a special wall and you kinda win (Type: Null anyone). And sure, a lot of mons exist that hurt it, but it legit just switched. Pursuit is relatively effective, but its also situational. Slowbro doesn't always switch out vs. Sneasel/Houndoom, nor does it need to. A lot of pokemon easily partner with it like steelix, piloswine, really anything that beats electric/bug/grass. The main role it really does to make this meta healthy is not let fighting types completely take over.

3) Considerations:

Sneasel and Slowbro. Slowbro and Sneasel. They do their jobs too well, and thats a problem. But a bigger problem? Imagine one of them being able to freely saunter the meta without the other. In a post Sneasel ban meta, psychics still dont make a comeback because now fighting types have little use, flying types are still also hurt for the same reason. Delphox still loses, xatu still loses, the only real winner... is slowbro. Slowbro loses a major threat. It then dominates the meta more than it did by rending fighting types unviable. An entire typing. On the flip side, you lose slowbro and what happens to the meta? Sneasel gets checked by a large amount of fighting type mons incoming, grass types don't flourish as much, you can bring back poison types, but now, something like Klinklang wins straight up.

4) Closing

You either have to suspect both, or neither. At the moment, the meta isn't perfectly healthy, but if I'm being honest and if the council is honest with themselves, can you ever really recall a meta that was completely healthy. There are always some mons that are way more viable than others because of the roles they play and the fact that pokemons' stats and abilities and moves all vary. Its bound to happen, its why its competitive. If you got rid of sneasel or slowbro, the meta would get broken in a new way, possibly better and possibly worse. Instead, you should really sit down and consider what is occurring right now vs. what a meta without slowbro or without sneasel looks like. Consider what is more enjoyable in a meta, competition, stall, hyper offense. Consider what gives each of you a thrill when you type the letter "p" into the url bar and click enter because pokemonshowdown is the first thing that pops up. Is it because you like mindlessly clicking buttons and being 100% confident itll work like in the case of Bro, or taking a risky gamble that feels oh so satisfying when it pays off like with sneasel. Should matches be fast paced or take 90 turns. These are all important to note while making a decision and based on this (slightly) biased argument, I would say I'd rather suspect slowbro than sneasel. But thats just me.
 

Rabia

IM ME, I DO ME, AND I CHILL
is a Pre-Contributor
#35
Oh, yipee, this debate again. Look, I'm relatively new and don't entirely understand the definition of a "healthy meta" or junk like that but I've been laddering and playing in tournaments as much as possible to see where this whole "ban sneasel" vs "ban slowbro" vs "stay the course" debate is derived from. Here are my findings:

1) Sneasel:

Sneasel is not broken. Oh no, look at that, I dropped the bombshell just like that. The truth about sneasel is that yes, offensively, its very freaking dangerous, but its no where near what broken is supposed to look like. Case and point: you can only bring it in two different ways. 1) a slow volt/turn (or whatever steelvally does) or 2) the death of a pokemon. And yeah, maybe pokes dont like switching into it, but its not like sneasel stays in all the time. Anything with thick fat, really good physical bulk, or priority that can survive 1-2 hits forces it out so its a non factor. Things like Scrafty and Z Klinklang can set up, Lix and Rhydon get hazards, and a lot of other pokemon simply survive. Not to mention colbur rotom gets to click willowisp and now sneasel is utterly useless. In addition, playing sneasel is very freaking difficult. You have to know when to click pursuit, when knock off is best, what about icicle crash. Its choice band gives it power, but also limits its options. So yes, it does lots of damage when the user plays it just right, but when they play it wrong, they lose a pokemon, maybe even the battle. I'm not going to say a mon like sneasel is healthy for the tier, it does restrict many ghost/flying/psychics, but I will say that there are ways around it and some of the most common pokemon in the meta like inceroar, hariyama, steelix, and a few others good checks.

2) Slowbro:

Broken? No. Real big pain in the ass? Yup. Should it be suspected? Maybe, but more so the sneasel. Look, remember how I said there is a skill gap for sneasel? Well there isn't one for Slowbro. It legitimately halts a quarter of the tier on its own. Think about that. Any physical attacking mon loses to slowbro one on one. "But it isnt a one on one its a six on six". Well, fuck that, cuz this bitch has regenerator. So now it can practically stall out half a team's offensive power on its own, freeing up 5 slots for you to do whatever the hell you want with the other 5 pokemon. And get this, slowbro is easily the most splashable pokemon in the tier. It is by far the most common that I've experienced and its very difficult to have success against/without. You wanna say sneasel stunts hyper offense? Slowpro obliterates it. Scald is too annoying for physical attacks, walls eat a toxic, aside from guzzlord, slowbro hits neutrally on every dark type (and still has toxic) and makes it so nothing really wants to switch in. Slowbro never dies and always has to be considered when teambuilding. All you really need is a special wall and you kinda win (Type: Null anyone). And sure, a lot of mons exist that hurt it, but it legit just switched. Pursuit is relatively effective, but its also situational. Slowbro doesn't always switch out vs. Sneasel/Houndoom, nor does it need to. A lot of pokemon easily partner with it like steelix, piloswine, really anything that beats electric/bug/grass. The main role it really does to make this meta healthy is not let fighting types completely take over.

3) Considerations:

Sneasel and Slowbro. Slowbro and Sneasel. They do their jobs too well, and thats a problem. But a bigger problem? Imagine one of them being able to freely saunter the meta without the other. In a post Sneasel ban meta, psychics still dont make a comeback because now fighting types have little use, flying types are still also hurt for the same reason. Delphox still loses, xatu still loses, the only real winner... is slowbro. Slowbro loses a major threat. It then dominates the meta more than it did by rending fighting types unviable. An entire typing. On the flip side, you lose slowbro and what happens to the meta? Sneasel gets checked by a large amount of fighting type mons incoming, grass types don't flourish as much, you can bring back poison types, but now, something like Klinklang wins straight up.

4) Closing

You either have to suspect both, or neither. At the moment, the meta isn't perfectly healthy, but if I'm being honest and if the council is honest with themselves, can you ever really recall a meta that was completely healthy. There are always some mons that are way more viable than others because of the roles they play and the fact that pokemons' stats and abilities and moves all vary. Its bound to happen, its why its competitive. If you got rid of sneasel or slowbro, the meta would get broken in a new way, possibly better and possibly worse. Instead, you should really sit down and consider what is occurring right now vs. what a meta without slowbro or without sneasel looks like. Consider what is more enjoyable in a meta, competition, stall, hyper offense. Consider what gives each of you a thrill when you type the letter "p" into the url bar and click enter because pokemonshowdown is the first thing that pops up. Is it because you like mindlessly clicking buttons and being 100% confident itll work like in the case of Bro, or taking a risky gamble that feels oh so satisfying when it pays off like with sneasel. Should matches be fast paced or take 90 turns. These are all important to note while making a decision and based on this (slightly) biased argument, I would say I'd rather suspect slowbro than sneasel. But thats just me.
You are underselling Sneasel greatly and I do not like it. Sneasel does not have to come in solely from VoltTurn or post-death; Sneasel has passable Special Defense and some key resists to get it in just fine.

You say you can just switch-in any physically-defensive Pokemon to check it, but that really isn’t the case because of how easy to weaken Sneasel’s checks are. Steelix hates losing Leftovers, Incineroar has no recovery, SteelVally has no recovery. Klinklang shouldn’t even be switching in all that much considering you want to use it as a win-con late in the battle. Also, Colbur Rotom only checks if you are getting it in on a free switch tbh.

I do agree that Sneasel is possible to check; however, most of its checks are so easy to weaken over the course of a battle by virtue of spamming Knock Off, Sneasel’s presence further shits on the viabilty of Pokemon like Delphox and Haunter, and Sneasel compresses so much offensive utility. These three aspects of Sneasel + other comments I made lead me to believe Sneasel is not healthy for the current meta.
 
#36
You are underselling Sneasel greatly and I do not like it. Sneasel does not have to come in solely from VoltTurn or post-death; Sneasel has passable Special Defense and some key resists to get it in just fine.

You say you can just switch-in any physically-defensive Pokemon to check it, but that really isn’t the case because of how easy to weaken Sneasel’s checks are. Steelix hates losing Leftovers, Incineroar has no recovery, SteelVally has no recovery. Klinklang shouldn’t even be switching in all that much considering you want to use it as a win-con late in the battle. Also, Colbur Rotom only checks if you are getting it in on a free switch tbh.

I do agree that Sneasel is possible to check; however, most of its checks are so easy to weaken over the course of a battle by virtue of spamming Knock Off, Sneasel’s presence further shits on the viabilty of Pokemon like Delphox and Haunter, and Sneasel compresses so much offensive utility. These three aspects of Sneasel + other comments I made lead me to believe Sneasel is not healthy for the current meta.
Any might have been too broad or vague of a term but let me point out that there are a lot of pokemon that check it, especially with the rise of Incinium Incineroar but even something nifty like switching in hitmonlee makes sneasel pay. Defensive mons like scrafty, maudino, aromatise, steelix, rhydon, klink, miltank, poliwrath, and more defend really well against sneasel and they are (for the most part) really common in this meta. Also, sneasel is weak to rocks/spikes, doesn't like scald, loses to priority. There are ways to play around it and thats assuming your opponent knows how to play sneasel relatively perfectly... I'm not trying to undersell sneasel, im just trying not to oversell it. Its offense and speed are nasty and it cripples an unprepared team, but so does any mon in a similar circumstance.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
#37
Any might have been too broad or vague of a term but let me point out that there are a lot of pokemon that check it, especially with the rise of Incinium Incineroar but even something nifty like switching in hitmonlee makes sneasel pay. Defensive mons like scrafty, maudino, aromatise, steelix, rhydon, klink, miltank, poliwrath, and more defend really well against sneasel and they are (for the most part) really common in this meta. Also, sneasel is weak to rocks/spikes, doesn't like scald, loses to priority. There are ways to play around it and thats assuming your opponent knows how to play sneasel relatively perfectly... I'm not trying to undersell sneasel, im just trying not to oversell it. Its offense and speed are nasty and it cripples an unprepared team, but so does any mon in a similar circumstance.
I'm not really one to make posts in this thread because they're usually not good, but I think half the checks you listed still get worn down by Icicle Crash / Knock Off, or Stealth Rocks. Even if those checks still exist, it still doesn't prevent Sneasel from doing one of it's most potent abilities, and that's trapping. Ghost and Psychic types still don't like the Pursuit 50/50, which sometimes even Colbur berries can't help. Sneasel is definitely weak to things like Priority, Rocks, and the potential Scald burn, but for the case of Priority and Rocks you can definitely switch, and even live some form of priorities in some cases (aka not always). You claim that you're not underselling Sneasel, but there's not much of a way to oversell it imo, unless of course you're saying it has the most bulk in the world lol.
 

Virizain

formerly blood red
#38
Any might have been too broad or vague of a term but let me point out that there are a lot of pokemon that check it, especially with the rise of Incinium Incineroar but even something nifty like switching in hitmonlee makes sneasel pay. Defensive mons like scrafty, maudino, aromatise, steelix, rhydon, klink, miltank, poliwrath, and more defend really well against sneasel and they are (for the most part) really common in this meta. Also, sneasel is weak to rocks/spikes, doesn't like scald, loses to priority. There are ways to play around it and thats assuming your opponent knows how to play sneasel relatively perfectly... I'm not trying to undersell sneasel, im just trying not to oversell it. Its offense and speed are nasty and it cripples an unprepared team, but so does any mon in a similar circumstance.

Im not sure you're following what Sneasel does in the meta entirely, being, clicking Knock Off against its switch ins and removing things via pursuit. The argument that Sneasel is relatively frail and has defensive answers making it balanced might seem reasonable at first thought when you consider how it hates hazards and knock absorbers, but it ignores the chokehold it has on the tier, invalidating every slower Psychic and Ghost type and pressuring offense running Whimsicott/scarfers to answer it, ultimately leading (directly or indirectly) to the slower meta we have now. Virtually every archetype can abuse Sneasel trapping and I would nod towards how it puts a strain on building and decides whats viable to run and use to begin with. Sneasel imo is problematic for the tier atm and would push for a retest if a secondary suspect comes to be.

As for testing slowbro, that seems more questionable in a tier filled with toxic spam/special attackers/and shit that generally adapted to plow through it. Its an excellent defensive pivot that can simultaneously be annoying to switch into since little wants to come in on water/psychic stabs while not fearing toxic, but I'm still leaning towards anti-ban for the reasons I and other users mentioned, and I doubt banning it would be beneficial for the tier in general.

tl:dr: If were going for another suspect I would focus on a Sneasel retest, but bro could looked into if it reveals itself to be a problem later down the line
 

Blast

Break free
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#39
Hiya, it's been way too long (recovering from burnout etc) but I've played enough to gather my thoughts on the current hitlist. Gonna focus mostly on Sneasel since that's the Pokemon I feel more passionately about.

It's been touched on already by some other good posts itc, but I think the way Sneasel warps the metagame is being very underplayed by the anti-ban crowd here. I've been hearing things here and there along the lines of "we shouldn't ban Sneasel just to make Sneasel-weak Pokemon better", and normally I'd agree, but I'd argue that Sneasel has a special influence over these Pokemon that just isn't healthy for this tier. More specifically, Sneasel is unique in that it doesn't just make certain Pokemon worse. It makes them a risk to use at all.

Compare Sneasel to any other top offensive Pokemon in the tier, let's use Whimsicott as an example. When you Fighters or Darks or w/e against Whimsicott, yes it can take advantage of those Pokemon, but not to the point where they risk being removed from battle just for being on the field. As long as you build correctly, there's counterplay to any of the other top Pokemon in NU, but with Sneasel, the only counterplay is "win the prediction war" or "set up on it AFTER it's already done its job". And yes, I know that logic can be applied to any Pursuit mon, but what pushes Sneasel over the edge is the fact that there's so little risk in just clicking Knock Off instead. Even if Sneasel loses the prediction game, it's most likely either crippled your defensive answer or outsped and 2HKOed your offensive answer.

---

Regarding Slowbro, like I said I feel a lot less strongly about that, but I'm gonna have to agree with people saying we should retest Sneasel first and Bro later if it still proves to be a problem. There's a lot more room for potential counterplay against Slowbro, and on some level it does seem pretty important as a blanket physical wall in a metagame that has a LOT of physical attackers and few physical walls. I can definitely see the arguments for a Bro test, but Sneasel is much more important imo
 

Finchinator

IT'S FINK DUMBASS
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#40
Sneasel - I feel like it can be hard to wrap your head around the arguments for why Sneasel is banworthy and I guess that's understandable as it is far from black-and-white, admittedly. While outright it is a strong attacker and offensive presence, you really have to look at it in the context of the metagame and in a more practical light than a linear one. Sneasel's banworthy because of the impact Pursuit and its overall offensive presence has on the metagame trends, dictating viability of a number of things and holding back metagame progression while causing a stagnant monopoly around a number of things in terms of usage/viability. It's oddly similar to Aegislash back in OU during XY -- obviously, they are entirely different Pokemon, but if you take away the sword fucking and add in Pursuit and then look at comparative metagame impacts, it is actually similar to an extent and the end result is a pretty simple and straightforward unhealthy presence. Top that off with strong Pursuit in this tier's context being busted as is and Sneasel being a great mon and I'd ban it, yea.

Slowbro - A bit easier a case to judge from a basic perspective when compared to Sneasel, I'd say, but still far from a close-call in my eyes, especially seeing as this is a more defensive monster than it is offensive. Honestly, the only way I'd call it broken is if you're going off of the Toxic / Scald / Slack off / Psyshock (or filler, I guess) variant as that shit walls so much and cripples everything and it's damn annoying. I am still a bit on the fence here, but I'd probably need to judge after laddering and I'd say I lean slightly against banning it right now if only because I do not think it is that broken, even if it might be slightly, and it may be for the best of the tier. With that said, this could change easily is Sneasel goes or other trends emerge, so I'd mark me down as a 'maybe' ban for the time being and I'll keep a very open mind for the time being!

ps: omg intimidate incineroar with assault vest equipped covers BOTH defenses SO good HOW
 
#41
Sneasel
I think most people in this thread summed my thoughts on Sneasel very well already. It's hardly the fact that it can pursuit trap but its other utilities and lack of switchins in the tier are concerning to say the least. An aspect of Sneasel that is vastly underrated is its physical ice STAB. I mean sure, your Aromatisse or half health lix can come in on a knock but one 30% flinch is all it takes to overwhelm a check. There's also the fact that this tier's bulky waters are threatened by Venu, Lisk, & Croak so the only common water you'll find that resists crash is like Bro (wow what an anomaly). I mean at times I even pursuit trapped low health Sceptiles and Scarf Venus off the fear of banded ice shard which is pretty fucking strong for priority. Its strong Pursuit & Knock off are still the bread n butter as these moves alone make other mons a "risk" to play which is pretty bullshit as we have enough strain in the teambuilder atm.
BAN the first time BAN the second time :fukyu:

Slowbro
To be completely honest, I think Slowbro has become somewhat of a necessary evil I don't think it's entirely at fault here for a stale-ish meta rather its a reaction to it. In the case we hypothetically ban bro, it will cause a slippery slope in physical breakers. What will keep Klinklang in check? What will keep Medicham in check? Passimian? And so on. Broken has kind of become the face of NU and Slowbro is just a glue that stops amazing mons from being broken, essentially the Toxapex of NU (comparison is a stretch but has some merit) Without Sneasel, I can garuentee that we'd see king over bro in many balances and such which in turn will make Bro a less essential pick. In short, Slowbro astoundingly high pick rate is not because of its broken nature in it of itself, rather than the metagame constantly working in its favor.
Do Not Ban :blobpex:
 

Kiyo

Spongebob is my favorite anime.
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#42
Sir Kay and I had a discussion on Sneasel and Slowbro while going over some of these posts and I turned it into a podcast. Most of the points are already covered here in some way or another, but if you have an hour to kill you can put this on in the bg or smth.


Also thanks to everybody for posting in the thread, it's been a valuable resource to gauge community opinion of the state of the metagame.
 

Myosin

wishy fishy
is a Tiering Contributor
#43
Sir Kay and I had a discussion on Sneasel and Slowbro while going over some of these posts and I turned it into a podcast. Most of the points are already covered here in some way or another, but if you have an hour to kill you can put this on in the bg or smth.


Also thanks to everybody for posting in the thread, it's been a valuable resource to gauge community opinion of the state of the metagame.
I really enjoyed this video, and some of your points were very eye-opening to me, so thanks for that. Before, my mind was pretty set on Sneasel and I honestly was stubborn in my opinion, but after hearing you say it out loud, I realized my thinking was the exact same as yours when building. Sneasel almost nullifies so many Pokemon in the meta that could be completely viable, but are just unable to be due to Sneasel; in particular it's strong and fast Pursuit. A few Pokemon that come to mind are Sigilyph, Exeggutor-Alola, Haunter, and Dodrio. On top of this, it's very limited in checks that aren't severely crippled by Knock Off, so even if Sneasel isn't winning games on it's own, Pokemon such as Defensive Hariyama and Steelix are no longer as solid of checks to Pokemon like Vanilluxe and Klinklang, respectively. So as for Sneasel, my mind is changed and I'm now leaning more towards a ban.

As for Slowbro, my thoughts are the same. I believe it's a necessary evil for the tier, and honestly once Sneasel is gone, I don't see the meta being as friendly for Slowbro, making it much less overcentralizing. A lot of strong special attackers that give Slowbro trouble are so easily Pursuit trapped by Sneasel, so I'm going to estimate that a Sneasel ban would somewhat solve this issue.
 
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