Metagame NP: NU Stage 6 - Holiday [Snow Warning Banned]

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shiloh

formerly rozes
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NU Leader
Hello, now that we have the 3 month shifts we also get a new NP thread do discuss them, as well as an announcement on the council ban that just happened.

To start with, these are the changes that have occured due to usage shifts:

Gastrodon moved from NU to RU
Golisopod moved from NU to RU
Roserade moved from PUBL to RU

Entei moved from RU to NU
Glastrier moved from RU to NU

The council will be having discussions right away on the new drops, as with NU Open currently ongoing it is in our best interest to take action if needed as soon as possible. Along with that, the results of the vote on Hail have come in, and they are as such:

1617337219698.png


Due to Snow Warning receiving a 50%+ majority in the 1st choice of voting, Snow Warning will be banned from NU effective immediately.

Snow Warning/Hail Based teams have been dominating the ladder over the past couple months, and have only gotten better as a result from the suspect tests held over the past couple of months. This is mainly due to one of the best forms of Hail counterplay in Scarf Mienshao being banned, and opening up the speed tiers for Arctovish to plow through teams even more than it already did before. With the help of instant weather from Snow Warning mons, Vish, and Sandslash, were able to come in multiple times throughout the game and punish switchins with strong attacks. There is very little in the metagame that wants to switch into Fishious Rend in the first place, but even less can come in to other moves like Freeze-Dry. Overall Hail became a very dominating structure, and as such the council took action and voted to ban Snow Warning.

The other side to this suspect test was deciding what to do when it comes to Banning Snow Warning or Arctovish, as there were good arguments from both sides. However, in the end a majority of council did support a ban of Snow Warning. This mainly stems from the fact that NU at this point has attempted to stifle hail archetypes 3 separate times over this generation, with bans on Aurora Veil, Arctozolt, and potentially now Arctovish. This post from Ren-chon covers a lot of what council believes, and the reasoning behind why many voted the way they did.
Also just to cover these because they did pop up a couple of times, and Id' rather not have the thread/room clogged up on discussion about this in the future: Why did we not consider Slush Rush/Icy Rock bans. For the more obvious one, Icy Rock. For tiering purposes we always look towards what the least complex/intrusive ban possible is when coming to a decision, and most of the time it can fall under a certain framework. We prefer to Ban Pokemon First, Abilities Second, Items Third, and Moves Fourth. Icy Rock at this point in time is not considered for the ban because it is just a more intrusive way to solve the issue. While it might be a simple ban, it really does not address what the true issue with Hail is, and why the teams are as good as they are. While it may be an enabler, it is not at the level of Snow Warning, or even the abusers themselves to be considered. Slush Rush is a bit more fair, but it is an ability that is solely based on Snow Warning, and it would have the same collateral that Snow Warning would have with PU, in terms of policy. Slush Rush also is only the common link in 2/3 of the hail related bans, and as such is a less ideal aspect to be tested compared to Snow Warning.


Also as a result of this: Arctozolt and Aurora Veil will both also be unbanned from NU. Tagging Kris and Marty to implement (Ban Snow Warning/Unban Arctozolt+Aurora Veil)

--

Feel free to use this thread to discuss the metagame, and especially the new drops as the council will be evaluating both of them soon!
:ss/entei: :ss/glastrier:
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Pre-Contributor
I've yet to try Glastier or the scary CB and Howl Entei sets, but I have dabbled a bit with VinTei

entei.gif


Entei @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Def / 96 SpD / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Lava Plume

132 HP - for 101 subs
252+ - maxing out the Physdef helps give you a defensive presence outside just setting up and you can easily set up on more things now ie burnt Diancie
96 SpD - Basically filler but has turned some calcs different like +2 Mantine Scald not breaking Sub but it isn't relevant much
28 Spe - Crept for Adamant TTrum

Although I'm still working around on the team with this demon, VinTei has yet to disappoint me. Through 5 or so games, it has straight up won twice, even 6-0ing a guy, and has been a HUGE team asset defensively and offensively game in and game out. It has the potential to set up on a lot of the tier thanks to its natural bulk and fantastic speed. My spread here is for Adamant Tyrantrum, meaning you actually Stall out Head Smash with ease from TTrum, among other low PP moves, and set up on Arcanine, an upcoming Entei counter I've seen pop up consistently over the past few hours. Lava Plume comes in clutch with that 30% burn rate, meaning 132/252+ can actually sub up on and beat a burnt Diancie, another semi consistent check, and if you don't burn it, you Pressure stall DiamondStorm anyways. It's so satisfying to watch Diancie go from counter to fodder just because of the set. This is part of why offensively I've loved it so far. It can turn a few of the more common checks to CB Entei that have risen up into free set up.

Defensively, this set is also fantastic at the moment in my opinion. It's like what Arcanine always wished it was. A bulky Fire who can abuse common cores all while having an offensive footprint. In the few test games I've used it so far, where it consistently shined was in walling tier demon Copperajah, taking 15 from Heavy Slam and subbing or burning something as it switched it. It also was a solid answer to new demon Glastier and the Grass/Fairies we have in the tier, albeit few. Weirdly enough, I've found its defensive potential to be just as powerful as its offensive one.

0 Atk Copperajah Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 132 HP / 252+ Def Entei: 65-77 (16 - 19%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Copperajah Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 132 HP / 252+ Def Entei: 86-102 (21.2 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 132 HP / 252+ Def Entei: 90-106 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Glastrier Icicle Crash vs. 132 HP / 252+ Def Entei: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk burned Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 132 HP / 252+ Def Entei: 87-103 (21.5 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 132 HP / 96 SpD Entei: 54-64 (13.3 - 15.8%) -- possibly the worst move ever
For this set, I know daniYSB ran a faster variant for Jolly Fetch'd, since you reliably PP Stall CC, but so far I've found this spread to get the job done, although it's always open to interpretation and changes so show me what you got hiding in your builder. I highly recommend this set to anyone looking to abuse Entei and, no Corthius, this is NOT the new Cress

PS: petition to only use shiny Entei because it’s FIRE
 
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TailGlowVM

Bring back Tail Glow
is a Pre-Contributor
Well, I'm not the most experienced NU player, so you may not agree with me, but I've been testing the two new drops for a bit and I have some initial thoughts.

:ss/entei:
Entei seems decent so far, but not amazing. Sacred Fire is an amazing STAB move and Extreme Speed is great, but its coverage options to hit resists are pretty poor. You get Stone Edge for Mantine, Arcanine and Talonflame, Stomping Tantrum for Diancie, Dragalge and Salazzle, Crunch for Starmie and not much else. It's completely walled by the common Flygon, bar lucking out with burns, and even with hail gone Vaporeon is probably here to stay as the (realistically) hardest counter, tanking its attacks and being able to remove burns.

:ss/glastrier:
I'm actually quite disappointed by the horse so far. It hits incredibly hard, but never gets to do much when every offensive Pokemon can outspeed and do heavy damage to it due to its horrible speed and poor defensive typing. It gets worn down very quickly, especially if you forgo Leftovers for Boots like I have, basically mandating Sylveon or Vaporeon with it for Wish support. It's a bit one-dimensional too, with the only viable set likely to be Sub / SD / Crash / Horsepower or CC. Sadly it doesn't look like NU is going to solve the problems it has had in the upper tiers.

Conclusion: Neither of the drops looks banworthy, but there might be some changes around them. Vaporeon is not dead with hail gone.
 
Finally, no need to run Vapeoron on every team now. I think that with the removal of hail, teambuilding is opened up a lot more now. Excited to see how the meta will change through all of this. I've been laddering a lot recently and I wanted to share my thoughts on some Pokemon that are hot/not that hot rn.

The new toys

:glastrier:

Extremely threatening Pokemon, however, I feel like it's actually manageable. It has no switch ins at all, however, it's also kind of hard to bring in. Yeah you can come in on a bronzong or copperajah, but what if they toxic/ stone edge respectively? It's obviously not the end of the world for ice horse, but it's something the glastrier user has to consider and be worried about when switching it in. If you run speed investment for slower mons, such as vaporeon, copper, etc.. You lose out on bulk/power, making it easier to revenge/ break the substitute. Offensively, you are still pressured by a lot of Pokemon, many of which are very common in the meta. Such as sirfetch'd, entei, starmie among others. This is not to say glastrier is not good, because it's honestly amazing. However, I feel like people were overhyping it up (which i am people)

:entei:

This is way better than what I thought it was going to be. I don't think it's broken, but rather extremely good. A few common fire switch ins do not want to take a burn (diancie, flygon among others). Vaporeon still exists, but if it gets the burn on vaporeon, it means it is softened up for late game cleaning by entei. I find it interesting how some defensive flygon are already running earth power, just to be a better entei check.

:arctozolt:

Honestly not sure if this will even be good, but sounds pretty threatening on paper. You threaten many common cores, and don't really have any switch ins. Manual hail might be nice as well. On the flipside, you will be vulnerable to pretty much every attack and won't have much opportunities to come in. Will probably be extremely potent and fun to use. And will be exciting to see if it will actually be apart of the metagame, or fall to the depths of PU.

Setup sweepers

:blastoise:

Blastoise is extremely scary right now, with gastro/golisopod and to a lesser extent, roserade, no longer in this tier. Three checks that were in the way of blastoises sweep. With hail gone, it means vaporeon isn't a requirement on every team. All things blastoise loves. The additions of entei, and to a lesser extent, glastrier also make it so Blastoise has an even easier time setting up. (especially under screens) It was already a huge threat before, and will probably continue to get better as metagame progresses.

:tyrantrum:

As a setup sweeper, it's even scarier now. Hail gone means one less offensive speed control to handle tyrantrum. And with the departure of gastrodon, it makes cleaning through teams even easier now. It also loves the increased prominence of fire types right now (entei, talonflame, arcanine). Perhaps there will be more bronzong and mudsdale now to combat this rampant trex...

:flygon:

Without golisipod and hail, offensive-ish checks to flygon. And gastrodon, a pokemon that could annoy flygon. I can definitely see flygon as a more scary set-up sweeper.

:celebi:

Not really sure what to think of this mon still. On one hand, it is a good starmie switch-in, lost offensive pressure from goli and hail, and can still take advantage of waters. On the other hand... fire types are extremely good right now, you still have the same moveslot issues as before, and still weak to the few U-turners and ghosts in the tier (which are decently common). Also lost gastrodon, a mon it loves to switch in and set up on. I think this mon will still be... not that amazing, but who knows? maybe this will actually be good in the new meta.

Other Pokes. worth mentioning

:Starmie:
Similar to tyrantrum, this pokemon becomes a whole lot scarier without gastrodon and Golisopod. Meaning one less switch in, and one less revenge killer, respectively. Starmie doesn't need to consider using grass knot anymore, and can now opt for new coverage or recover for its moveslots. You also somewhat check ice horse and entei, both of which are really scary atm.


:escavalier:

This mon could deal with hail decently. Checking dragalge/setters and could pressure the rest with cc/knock. Not only that, but a niche of walling the two poison/grass types is now gone. Plume is not that common, and roserade rose to RU. You also allow in fighters, which is a massive threat rn. You're still not a reliable special wall, due to many of them having fire coverage, or just 2 shotting with their strong stabs. Not to mention the numerous fire types good right now (entei, arcanine, talonflame). Escav will still be good as a knock off user and wall breaker, but not nearly as good as before imo.

:Copperajah:

The new shifts and bans are not really in copperajah's favor. There's more defensive flygon popping up now, along with mudsdale that can annoy it. However, there's also glastrier and entei, which love to see copper's presence. Probably still one of the best mons in the tier, but I feel like it's not as good as it once was.
 
Posting my initial thoughts here on the shifts and meta trends I expect to take place in the coming weeks

New demons

:entei:
Off the rip, entei is everything offensive arcanine wishes it could be. Sporting a 115 base attack with a relatively free stab move in sacred fire is nuts, and it has coverage to deal with a majority of the mons that would want to switch in, such as stone edge and iron head for mantine and diancie, respectively. Also has priority in extreme speed is a nice rkilling option on a banded set. Entei's versatility with sets doesn't stop there however. Substitute sets seem really dope when coupled with pressure (I throw sub under an umbrella because there are multiple options to run with sub and you can mix and match between any two of calm mind, toxic, protect and have relatively decent amts of success). I got bodied by quziel who was using a curse + resttalk set which also doesn't seem horrible. I think entei might be a bit overwhelming for the tier from an initial POV. I could see the rationale behind a test / qb

:glastrier:
I was hyping this mon up since march when we got the data from the first two months of the year and this boi was slated to drop. Coupled with solid bulk and a great attack stat with a good ability, this mon seems like a terror for fatter and slower teams. This mon also deals with copperajah because of its weight, as both heat crash and heavy slam bounce off, and really only has to watch for stone edge. A couple sets I've theorized would be good for ice horse would be sub/idef/bpress/icicle spear, sub/sd/high horsepower/icicle spear, and maybe even a banded or sd 3 atks set. Glastrier has more obvious drawbacks in comparison to entei. For one, its speed stat is the most glaring drawback for obv reasons. Ice defensively is a horrendous typing, coupled with the dilemma no reliable recovery and is forced to choose whether it takes hazard damage while running leftovers for recovery, or have no recovery when running HDB. Overall I think the mon is going to be solid as well, but could be manageable with a bit more exploration / testing

:arctozolt:
gonna keep this brief, I feel like this mon could terrorize fat pretty well, dunking on the popular copperajah + vaporeon cores that have been everywhere, but I don't think its gonna be a good mon with no autohail in the tier. Has a bit of potential though with setting its own hail and going to town


New trends
Quickly discussing stonks either rising or falling

Expecting :vaporeon: to skyrocket in usage due to entei as well as :blastoise:

:blastoise: is going to be extremely good with hail gone, leaving revenging measures to v few, especially with :golisopod: and its stab first impression dipping

:tyrantrum: is going to be a bit more of a nuisance to deal with given that its most reliable check / counter in :gastrodon-east: also left to RU

Picked thin for spikers atm, but I predict a rise in these mons to possibly fill the shoes of :roserade: and goli- :accelgor: :coalossal: :froslass: :garbodor: :omastar: :qwilfish:

Steel type stonks are dropping slightly with entei dropping, :copperajah: especially with thicc ice horse, and the already prevalent fightings.

:flygon: seems like one of the most splashable mons atm bc of entei as a defensive check, don't be surprised to see earth power rise up as the dominant ground move to beat entei reliably.

:starmie: seems even better with hail being gone (invalidating its speed tier slightly), and first impression from goli being gone, doesn't see much need to run grass knot anymore with gastro gone asw

bop.
 
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roxiee

Edna xD
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Just posting my thoughts on some parts of the metagame real quick:

:ss/entei:
Choice Band by Me
Entei @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head
- Extreme Speed

Sub + Protect by Pokeslice
Entei @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Def / 96 SpD / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Protect
- Lava Plume
As mentioned by other community members, Choice Band Entei is one of the best sets you can run on it. Its access to STAB Sacred Fire, Iron Head for Rock-types like Diancie and Gigalith, Extreme Speed for faster Pokemon like Rotom-C, and Stone Edge for Flying-types like Mantine and Talonflame, allows it to be an effective wallbreaker instantly as shown in tournaments. Entei on paper also has the possibility to run bulkier spreads for Calm Mind and Substitute + Toxic sets and I honestly feel like it's more difficult to run it with Flygon + Heal Bell Vaporeon teams being a common trend. Mantine is also a huge one as it just clicks Haze as it reveals Calm Mind. In terms of building around Entei, using a hazard remover like Flygon is encouraged to get rid of hazards and pivot it in with U-turn along with a cleric (Wish passer) like Sylveon or/and Vaporeon since it does take 25% damage from Stealth Rocks. People like Corthius, Aawin, and myself are enjoying more Earth Power Flygon sets with Entei being in the tier as the gooner doesn't appreciate a burn at all. We'll be using this Pokemon of course, in our Next Best Thing project to showcase all the possible sets Entei can run!

:ss/glastrier:
Substitute + ID by Aawin
Glastrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 20 SpD / 172 Spe
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Icicle Spear

Substitute + SD by Puffy423
Glastrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Chilling Neigh
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- High Horsepower
- Icicle Crash
I feel like Substitute sets will be really nice on Glastrier which pretty much causes Leftovers to be the default item in my eyes. I do think with Arctozolt being freed, it's a tad bit of competition between the two. Body Press is really nice to hit Copperajah and literally 68 defenses ensure Heavy Slam doesn't break. Bronzong on the other hand should be used a bit more as its own Body Press breaks Glastrier's Substitute. SubSD is another set with High Horsepower to hit Fire- and Steel-types like Entei and Copperajah. Glastrier really gives me weird vibes, I would really run a really good wallbreaker you know alongside this because his slow slow speed is really like eh??

:ss/arctozolt:
Arctozolt @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Bolt Beak
- Icicle Crash
- Stone Edge / Stomping Tantrum / Low Kick

Arctozolt @ Life Orb / Protective Pads
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hail
- Bolt Beak
- Icicle Crash
- Stomping Tantrum
Arctozolt is interesting not gonna lie but I think Substitute + 3 Atks or Hail + 3 Atks will be good. BoltBeam has always been amazing coverage across all tiers and the last slot on Substitute was discussed in the room and they all can be useful. Stone Edge is for Talonflame instead of getting burned by Flame Body, Stomping Tantrum for Volt Absorb users like Lanturn but it's not really a command trend, and Low Kick just being for fat stuff I guess. In common, they all hit opposing Arctozolt's which is important. On Hail it's pretty straightforward, I added Protective Pads though since you aren't burned by Talonflame's Flame Body and I just put Stomping instead of Edge there.

:ss/lanturn:
Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Def / 16 SpA / 220 SpD / 40 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Volt Switch
- Toxic
- Protect
In the light of Gastrodon leaving us in these troubling times, I encourage the NU community to steal yet another PU Pokemon gum being Lanturn. Lanturn is really unique in checking offensive Water-types like Starmie, Shell Smash Blastoise, and even Arctovish. Vaporeon is usually the preferred option but it really doesn't stand a chance against Thunderbolt Starmies and Substitute Blastoise sets with Shell Smash. Golisopod leaving us also gives us one less check to the mentioned threats above. Yes, I just copypasted the Lanturn set from PU analyses and added Water Absorb for the time being.
 

S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

aka Ho3nConfirm3d
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There is every reason to use Vaporeon right now. Like seriously, its bulk and utility makes it thee wall to throw on every team. Entei, Glastier, Blastoise, and everything else it used to wall (bar hail rip) is still super relevant. It completes pretty much every relevant defensive core and Scald + Wish + Heal Bell will always be useful. While physically defensive spreads are still the most common, I also enjoy specially defensive spreads when pairing it with physically defensive Bronzong and Flygon; again, this mon works everywhere! Specially defensive spreads have the benefit of dunking on Rotom-M and potentially even outstall Starmie, which is an even more valuable niche now that Gastrodon is gone. A lot of games just come down to Scald / Toxic attempts and pressing / outstalling Heal Bells between the two Vaporeons. And if it's vs offense, then Vaporeon still does a great job stopping Blastoise.

I know the new toys are fun to mention but Vaporeon is extremely centralizing. It's almost funny to see it still seemingly be so vital in teambuilding even in a post-hail meta. Then it got a 25% usage weight in last month's 1760-ladder stats, and I wouldn't be surprised with it rising even higher, largely thanks to.....

Yup, Entei. My first impression: I don't think Entei is the healthiest for the tier. The reliable counterplay to CB sets is pretty much just Vaporeon and Arcanine, but the latter is hard to justify as always. Flygon, Diancie, and Mudsdale all hate being burned, and even Heal Bell variants of Diancie lose precious momentum whenever they're forced to Heal Bell instead of revenge kill or Stealth Rock. Mantine, Talonflame, Dragalge, and Goodra are easily OHKOed / 2HKOed with Stone Edge and Double-Edge. It's also a wallbreaker at a phenomenal Speed, so it's a great revenge killer to stuff like Decidueye, Indeedee, and Fightings after a CC / good chip. If that wasn't enough, the +1 Extreme Speed comes into play so that even faster cleaners / sweepers struggle with it.

In some ways that's just the tip of the iceberg for Entei. Many above have already pointed out how it can run alternative sets that can catch its counters off guard, or at the very least the set diversity is a decent buff. Is there counterplay to Entei? Of course. But do you really want to go another month with Vaporeon being legit everywhere and near-mandatory? Entei is a lot of fun to use and is so rewarding as a wallbreaker, but it's clear to me at least that it'll be far too centralizing to be worth it.

Here's a CB Entei team i used the past 24 hours to get to 1623 on the ladder: https://pokepast.es/645714eca4cd78c3
The team includes that SpD Vaporeon I hyped up earlier, the ever-relevant combo of scarf Mowtom + defensive Flygon, physdef Diance for rocks + soft checking some Fighting-types, and specs Decidueye as another wallbreaker that compliments Entei pretty well; the Fighting immunity + revenge killing is also a blessing.
 
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Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Pre-Contributor
This is mind blowing, hail was super strong in pu but it was never busted

Just surprised by how large of a ban this was

It's kind of ridiculous icy rock or slush rush wasn't banned first. Pu could handle it and now we got the boardest ban hammer when they drop
You should go check out Shiloh’s earlier post with the reasoning behind Snow Warning specifically (on mobile or I would link) but neither a Slush Rush ban nor an Icy Rock ban would have actually solved the problems NU had with hail in the tier. I personally was on the side of banning Vish, but Snow Warning was definitely the second best option.

As for comparing PU hail and NU hail, you really can’t compare the two. In PU, Vaporeon was top tier and other hail abusers like Lisk, Top, and Croak were all MORE than viable and very common meanwhile, in NU, the only viable answer to hail was just Vaporeon. All the options might have been usable, but they were nowhere near top tier threats or extremely viable like in PU. On top of that, building around hail was SO easy here with both Decid and Dragalge covering all weaknesses that you needed to cover, meanwhile in PU, that was a lot harder to do.

I would stop trying to compare Hail in the two tiers, even if you disagree with the ability ban. They just aren’t comparable.
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
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Playing with Entei pretty much warps the tier. Ho3n hit the nail on the head with the limited counterplay and fact that Heal Bell is suddenly much more of a forced necessity than a periodic luxury on balance builds.

I have tried the CB set and it does have some shortcomings, but with a little support and the right teammates, it is pretty much always either carrying its weight or completely derailing the game. I think the special/finesse sets are a lot less consistent, but in match-ups when only CB Entei is prepared for, they are wicked effective compliments. Because of this, Entei is able to roughly pick what checks and counters it besides from a very small handful of universal checks, which are still forced to promptly recover and seize any semblance of momentum.

I have yet to try Glastrier, but so far it seems less problematic than Entei. Also, Vaporeon is quickly becoming the #1 Pokemon in the tier and it is pretty funny.
 
Entei is quite ridiculous : vintei set can pp stall even scald users with only a few support, and band set cripples switch ins such as diancie or flygon with sacred jesus christ burn. Please quickban that mon. :psygrump:

But the main issue with entei is the fact it forces to run balanced as """"counterplay""", and what mon destroys balanced?
Glastrier, with sub/rest ID/SD sets, choice band with insane coverage, and nearly impossible to revenge kill in one hit, is able to stomp defensive cores. I precise that vapo is not a sub glastrier counter cause scald doesn't break the sub...

I don't know if glastrier would be broken in a metagame without Entei God, but rn this core is very unhealthy.
 
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:ss/Entei:
Alotta people seem to be thinking Entei is pretty problematic, but I haven't really been running into the same issues as everyone else on the ~20 ladder games ive played since the shift. Don't get me wrong i really like it and think its good, but I see it as a more healthy addition to the tier. I also recognize that forcing heal bell support on balance is a bit constraining, but we do have 3 REALLY good users, Diancie, Vaporeon, and Sylveon. Some mons that seem to really lighten the Entei matchup for me are Flygon, Guzzlord, Starmie, Dragalge, Blastoise (SS or Defensive), Gigalith, Carracosta, Omastar. The last 2 are pretty meme, but the others do the job pretty well! My fear of Entei kinda comes from Arcobaleno's point, it seems like its pretty easy to build a team that supports Entei really well, with stuff like Toxicroak, Celebi, Starmie, Arctozolt etc. I also havent been Vintei'd yet, so maybe that would warp my perspective, most ive faced were boots or CB (I run boots myself atm).
Starmie @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
- Toxic

Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Roost

Guzzlord @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 104 Def / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

:ss/Glastrier:
I have used Glastrier a bit, it seems pretty manegable, it goes off once in a while and gets like 3 kills, but usually its just a 1 for 1 trade. I tried using the ID set cuz it seems good, but I couldn't find opportunities to really setup for free, meaning I'd get chunked and end up not really doing much since its so slow. I would like to try it out more, but I don't see a broken angle for it yet.

Hopefully some of this is new information to consider, I plan on doing some more games with Hail and Vintei
 
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Finchinator

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Got some games in with the Ice horse finally.

Glastrier is a really good addition to the tier that I do not view as broken currently. I think that it is almost always able to carry its weight and it lacks many true counters, but it is rarely able to break games open. This is largely due to the combination of low speed and poor defensive typing, but everything else about it is amazing of course. I think we should be looking mainly at Entei first and we can always circle back to Glastrier later.
 
:Entei: I’m willing to sit on this guy for a bit, but my first impression is that it might be too good.

I think that Entei is something that you realistically have to treat as if guarantees a burn on switch, which really dries up the pool of options against it. Furthermore, a strong Extremespeed turns plenty of two-time switches into one-time switches.

The combination of Sacred Fire burns and a strong Extremespeed neuters a lot of would-be good counterplay. Generic Flygon is a no. Starmie with no Recover is a no. Aerodactyl, Blastoise, Kingdra, Tyrantrum all have to walk on eggshells around it because the amount of HP/not-being-burned they need to punish Entei is deceptively high.

To the point where it’s ludicrously easier to just run a Vapes with Heal Bell. Vaporeon is hilariously still too good to forgo despite a Snow Warning ban.

And that’s just for Boots/Band sets. The Substitute sets require entirely different checks, many of which fall flat against Pressure and burns.
 
how did I miss this lol, haven't played nu In a bit, but anyway all I can say is thank god the hail bs is gone, it will make nu much better in the long run,
it was to op for nu, also im very glad goliopod is gone
 
AeroCoverage.jpg

With the addition of Entei and Glastrier to the tier, a fast offensive Rock type sounds pretty darn good right now, especially with Gastrodon rising up to RU, which walls the likes of Lycanroc, Kabutops, and the star of the show today, Aerodactyl. Aerodactyl's true flaw (aside from missing both of its STAB moves) is deciding what coverage moves to run. As you can see it can viably run at least 7 offensive moves, and this isn't including the likes of Hone Claws, Dragon Dance, Taunt, Roost, Stealth Rocks, or Substitute. You can see the points on the top of the chart showing the best OVERALL moves vs the tier. Please keep in mind this is in disregard to Aerodactyl's teammates and Aerodactyl can always pick and choose what Pokémon beats it, meaning you will always have something that counters you, but it will always be matchup dependent.

Stone Edge is by far the best overall move in the NU tier, which makes sense as Rock has always been a top 3 offensive typing. not far behind is Earthquake, also a fantastic offensively typed move that notoriously synergizes well with Stone Edge and is also your only way of hitting Copperajah. After EQ we get into a tie between Dual Wingbeat and Crunch. Dual Wingbeat is another great STAB move for Aero that hits the new bulky Grasses rising up to replace Roserade, and just being strong overall, while Crunch hits Bronzong, which you are walled by otherwise, as well as hitting many of the unchecked Ghost types running around like Dhelmise and Golurk.

The other moves are fringe picks where again, you pick and choose your counters. Aqua Tail or Ice Fang would let you actually set up vs Mudsdale to make some progress vs it, Ice Fang also hits defensive Flygon, which is rising up for Entei. Iron Tail (or Iron Head) hits the uncommon yet very good Diancie, as well as chunking Sylveon, and the accuracy is negligible with Hone Claws or Wide Lens.

The Pokemon highlighted in blue on the chart are the ones most likely to give you trouble, but Aero has his ways and 5 wonderful teammates to help him on his journey.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-w72JKUmBAymLUjWHF7JggP_pch4mnMeyFQQTGBuv-Y/edit?usp=sharing link to physical spreadsheet

please let me know if there are any errors i will add them to the list
aqua tail is super effective vs golurk
 
I made one of these for Cresselia a while ago, but here is a list of known and tried-and-true Entei checks (I'll be making one for Ice Horse too but that mon is incredibly under-explored atm)

So unlike Cressela, Entei has a plethora of viable sets it can run, each with a different line of checks and counters. Here are some of the main ones, but don't be surprised when Weather Ball Entei snipes your Flygon during a hail storm. First to know what checks Entei, lets go over what Entei even does.

Entei @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge
- Extreme Speed
- Iron Head / Flare Blitz / Crunch

Choice Band Entei is simple enough; kill non-fire resists, Burn or Stone Edge fire resists, clean up with Extreme Speed, and run either Iron Head for Diancie or Flare Blitz for PP (and slightly higher damage)

Entei @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
- Toxic / Iron Head / Substitute

Entei doesn't always need a Choice Band to cleave through teams, and freedom of choice of moves is always nice to have, this set just abuses Sacred Fire being broken, ESpeed to clean up frailer mons, Stone Edge to hit fire types like Talonflame and Arcanine, and the last move can be Iron Head for Diancie, Toxic for bulky waters, or Sub to gain momentum off switches

Entei @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 244 HP / 240 Def / 24 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Protect

MUCH different from tradiotional Entei sets, Vintei abuses the fact that Lava Plume burns making it physically bulky and CM boosts making it specially bulky mean you will simply need to use more moves to take it down, and Pressure combined with Substitute and Protect means you will have less move PP to use. Basically it stalls you out and gets big

Entei @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Extreme Speed
- Stone Edge
- Howl

This is easily the most under used set in the tier right now, one Howl will give you the equivalent boosts of a Choice Band without locking into moves, you do have to spend a turn setting up obviously, but the possibility is there so that's why I'm listing it.

Now that we've established the main Entei sets we can determine what can successfully deal with it in some degree.

Flygon @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Earthquake
- U-turn
- Roost

This set began to pick up in usage long before Entei ever entered the tier due to certain strengths that become more apparent now that they are more needed; being a Fire resist that also manages 'EdgeQuake' combo is a role not many (or any) mons in the tier can fulfill, as well as being one of the few consistent Defog users in the tier, access to Recovery, a pivoting move in U-Turn, and a very consistent strong STAB in Earthquake, along with overall well-rounded stats. Flygon does not appreciate burns from Lava Plume or Sacred Fire but Entei will never break through a Flygon whether it's burned or not.


252 Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 162-191 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Entei: 248-294 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
- Scald / Flip Turn
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell / Flip Turn / Toxic / Roar

Vaporeon finds yet another Pokemon that it can simply sit on. Not only can it sit on Entei, it can also safely pivot into an offensive threat to Entei AND Heal off burns for itself and its teammates with Heal Bell. There's not much to be said here; bulky water type beats Fire type.

252 Atk Choice Band Entei Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 244 Def Vaporeon: 196-231 (42.2 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock / Heal Bell
- Moonblast
- Diamond Storm / Power Gem
- Body Press / Literally anything dude wow

Now this mon is hard to make an example paste-in for because its EV's and moveset are so customizable and diverse, but Diancie's typing and stats let it take on almost (ALMOST) every single Entei set. you do have to fear Iron Head, but that is rarely used and fully physically defensive Diancie lives a Iron Head from non-Banded Entei anyway. Power Gem could be used so you don't get PP stalled out of Diamond Storms from Vintei (or Xatu). Diancie can also set up Stealth Rocks to chunk non-Boots Entei and Heal Bell burns.

252 Atk Entei Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 12 Def Diancie: 224-268 (73.9 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mudsdale @ Leftovers
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Smack Down / Protect / Roar / Rest
- Toxic

Mud Horse gaining a defense boost every time it gets hit makes it very difficult for physical attackers to take it down in one sitting, and Entei is not exempt from that notion. Even when you're burned you can pop Vintei Substitutes and can always just get Heal Bell'd later (or maybe run Rest). Basically just another Pokemon that Entei cannot kill and is also threatened out by, which counts as a check in my book :)

Starmie @ Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Thunderbolt / Psy(shock/chic)
- Ice Beam / Dazzling Gleam
- Rapid Spin / Recover / Flip Turn

While offensive Starmie cannot switch into Entei multiple times over the course of a game, it can come in at least once and threaten a kill with its Analytic boosted coverage; Entei cannot take a Water move and nothing in the tier can take 2 Starmie hits on switch-in if the Starmie gets the right read and has the right moves.

Starmie @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Psyshock / Flip Turn / Toxic
- Recover


252 Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 129-152 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Defensive Starmie on the other hand, while not dishing out nearly such a brutal beating, can consistently switch into Entei over the course of a game, can still force Entei out and gain momentum off the switch with Toxic or Flip Turn, and can heal off Sacred Fire with Recover + Natural Cure. You do have to be fearful of Crunch or Double Edge on a Choice Band set, though

Guzzlord @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 Def / 192 SpD / 64 Spe
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Earthquake / Toxic
- Rest / Substitute
- Sleep Talk / Protect

Guzzlord's insane bulk and fire resistance allow it to comfortably switch into all Entei sets and start chunking away at it, either removing Boots or Choice Band, or being able to beat Vintei 1v1 with 2 moves that break sub and RestTalk. Guzzlord is another mon with very amazing stats and a colorful movepool like Diancie where you can customize it to your needs, so take the paste-in as a recommendation for now.

Entei is objectively going to be a top tier mon in NU, how could it not be? Is it broken? Maybe? Its too soon to know, but hopefully this post will help y'all deal with it, or use it, better. :)​
 

GW

I may be warrior
is a Tiering Contributor
Hi! I wanted to talk about an interesting core/concept that I don't know if many people would use otherwise because it isn't something that might come up if people are just trying to build normal heal bell scald on every Vapo team...
:
:Vaporeon:
Vaporeon @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Wish
- Protect
- Flip Turn

:Drapion:
Drapion @ Black Sludge
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake

Swords Dance Drapion is a very cool pokemon because it is far more effective than the Choice Scarf set, and it is one of the few cool answers to Poltergeist spam instead of just running an itemless pokemon and hoping for the best, while also being very threatening offensively. One of the few issues i've found with drapion is that maybe it gets 1 kill and then destroyed by a u turn or volt switch that it is forced to take, and then is no longer even a Poltergeist check because of how low it is. With Flip Turn Vapo coming in on so many Pokemon for free, it gives the opportunity to heal back and have more longevity vs those teams and allow you to continue having a potential long-term way to deal with Decidueye spam. +2 Drapion has very limited switchins with the leaving of Gastrodon and can tear apart most defensive cores. It's also one of the few things that can easily take advantage of mindless Rest Talk Guzzlord cores, as a prime example.
Enjoy!
 
Been a while since I've talked in here about my thoughts and I don't want to repeat all the stuff said about Entei and Glastrier (Only want to say I agree with Finch's post)

A pokemon I do want to talk about is the good old Mr. Pringles himself, :Jellicent:.
Jellicent is one of the current Research Week mons (I encourage you do check the thread out!) so I gathered some thoughts on it trough laddering. The first thing that comes to mind when building for the current metagame are the two new top threats in Entei and Glastrier and Jellicent happens to have a very good matchup against both of them. 'But Corthius, Vaporeon is the best pokemon in the tier right now, why would I use Jellicent over Vaporeon?' Well, Jellicent has a wider movepool, making it harder to play around since you can only really guess what it's running. Lets take a closer look into its movepool and the moves I found are the best currently:
  • Taunt makes it really annoying to deal with for common cores, shutting down Wishes, Toxic, Heal Bell, Stealth Rock, Defog and recovery from slower opposing pokemon (or if they switch into Taunt). Taunt is probably the only move I feel mandatory on Jellicent as it also allows it to beat 'Vintei' and sub sd Glastrier.
  • Recover is the overall more consistent form of healing, while Strength Sap has its own unique traits that can make a huge difference in what you are able to check and what not. Using Strength Sap lets Jellicent beat physical threats like Copperajah and while Recover is a guaranteed 50% healing, Strength Sap can be a full heal on the right pokemon. It is inconsistent but has its perks.
  • Scald is Scald, we know that move
  • Toxic, especially in conjunction with Taunt, is really cool against slower, fatter teams which rely on Heal Bell support in order to stay as healthy as long as possible. Its the main way of beating down defensive cores.
  • Ghost-STAB in either Shadow Ball or Hex is really helpful in the 1v1 vs Vaporeon as you have an attacking move to spam. I personally like Hex a bit more since it works really well together with Toxic spreading and slightly compensates Jellicent's poor damage output otherwise. Shadow Ball is fine for Spdef-drops ig?
  • Night Shade is separate because it always does fix damage and doesn't count as STAB in that regard. Night Shade best use is to compensate Jellicent's damage output which is similar useful vs slower, fatter teams and you would probably run it over Toxic in that regard. It makes the matchup versus Xatu easier as well.
  • Will-O-Wisp is better on really fast Jellicent and works really well with Recover as it compensates not lowering the opponents attack stat in order to continue to wall them. Generally crippling physical threats is really valuable.
  • Niche surprise coverage options like Ice Beam for Flygon and Grass types, Dazzling Gleam versus Dark types, most notably Guzzlord, and Energy Ball/Giga Drain in order to damage opposing offensive Water types like Inteleon and Blastoise more

Obviously Jellicent can't run all of those moves and I believe its biggest issue right now is that 4MSS which forces you to pick one option. I believe Jellicent still has a decent matchup versus a wide range of pokemon in the tier right now, but its biggest niche is the high usage of the new toys.
I again encourage everyone to try this pokemon out and while doing so to participate in the Research Week :)
Thanks for reading.
 
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