np: NU Stage 6 - Magic Black Woman

[jake]

song from dingle (no keiran, no 'jizz in my pants')

Despite the huge debate in the Zangoose thread (and the nearly unanimous "do not ban" votes on Cinccino and Amoonguss), nothing was banned in the last round. Hurrah! However, a new threat rises on the horizon: Shadow Tag Gothitelle. Trapping and killing 2/3rds of the famed Regenerator core, as well as setting up Calm Minds all over your standard defensive walls, Gothitelle is sure to shake up the NU meta. How do you use Gothitelle? What do you think of it in the current metagame? Is its ability to trap and eliminate counters gamebreaking (no cries for ban yet, please)?

Feel free to chit-chat about the metagame in general; you don't have to post about Gothitelle.

POST DISCUSS ETC

edit: I also don't have a date for when the suspects for this round will be discussed yet. I'll post about that sometime in the near future.

 

[Flashrider57]

First post, yeah.

Anyway, I've seen so much rise in usage for Gothielle, it's not even funny. One thing that I've seen people doing is using Gothielle as a lead. Also, I've been using it in conjunction with Klang to great effect. I'm saying now that it'll be on the suspect list by the end of this round...

And no, I'm not crying for ban. I'm just saying it'll be a suspect...

EDIT: If the title is not permanent (which it probably is.....>.<), I propose changing it to Black Betty. Much better song, imo.

 

[watashi]

Gothitelle will probably force people to use more offensive teams since it has a hard time setting up Calm Minds against things like Zangoose, Emboar (not locked into Superpower), or Samurott. Shed Shell will probably rise in popularity as well, especially on Amoonguss and Alomomola since they don't require Leftovers recovery as much as other walls.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

np: NU Stage 6 - Black Magic Woman

I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE ZEB.

So, with Gothitelle rising in popularity I believe it's time to dust off the old VoltTurn strategy. We have plenty of good Pokemon that can use the switching moves, such as Cinccino, Rotom, Probopass, and others. I think I'd rather try them all out than start running shed shells on Goth-weak 'mons. Let the shenanigans begin.

 

[ebeast]

Personally I think Gothitelle is a pretty snug fit in the current metagame. While sure a simple SubCalm Mind set could destroy an unprepared team, you could say that about most Pokemon in NU including Braviary, Zangoose, Cinccino, etc Like FLCL mentioned it does have difficulty working against offensive teams as they are busy firing off extremely powerful attacks and keeping their momentum for Gothitelle to really do too much, especially with a SubCalm Mind set.

With the metagame adapting to it Pokemon such as Shed Shell Amoonguss have started appearing or even people just not playing careless against it. Like I mentioned on the Gothitelle Discussion thread I personally think that Specs is Gothi's best set due to the ability to be useful even against teams with nothing for Gothi to take full advantage of. SubCM's weakness as a set is that it depends greatly on the opponent making a mistake or being unprepared, while Specs can just deal massive damage to anything or cripple something with Trick.

 

[Wobble]

I don't think Gothielle will be TOO broken just because of it's speed. There are generally a lot of things that can prevent it's sweep early-mid game by breaking it's sub and threatening it with a powerful attack once the sub is down. You may lose 3 pokemon trying to stop it though, which I admit is a huge advantage. Late game it's obviously going to be devastating, but all good setup sweepers should be.

I'd also agree that Specs is the best, I've used both and to me the Specs set is like a slightly less powerful but more useful Specs Eggy. I used Psychic/Psyshock/Thunderbolt/Signal Beam.

T-Bolt and Psychic singlehandedly destroy the Aloma/Amoonguss reg core respectively. A lot of people don't like Psyshock but it helps when you are facing a special wall and need to push some damage, since IMO this set only needs 3 moves anyway.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

EDIT: If the title is not permanent (which it probably is.....>.<), I propose changing it to Black Betty. Much better song, imo.

No. Just no.

You may lose 3 pokemon trying to stop it though, which I admit is a huge advantage

Um, last time I checked that's called broken. You really shouldn't have to lose more than one Pokemon to take down a large threat. Anything that can remove 3 'mons from a prepared team would be considered broken. I mean, if you're playing against most of the PS ladder (which is terribad) you might be taking down many Pokemon with Gothitelle in a single match simply due to the lack of skill on the opponent's side. However, I don't think Gothitelle actually can take down more than one Pokemon per match if you're playing against users that know what they're doing, and am still a bit on the fence about whether it should be NU or not. Like Amoonguss it's obviously not going to be down here by the next tier shifts.

EDIT: Also, Gardevoir beats the fuck out of most Gothitelle lacking a SE move against it.

 

[Flashrider57]

@ChaoticaMortis: you just don't have great taste in music, I understand. Just kidding...

Ironically, I find that a good revenge killer to a Choiced Gothitelle is another one with Signal Beam. It just cracks me up a bit that a Pokemon can become its own worst nightmare. Just pointing it out.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Ironically, I find that a good revenge killer to a Choiced Gothitelle is another one with Signal Beam. It just cracks me up a bit that a Pokemon can become its own worst nightmare. Just pointing it out.

Shadow Tag doesn't prevent other Shadow Tag Pokemon from switching out, so Gothitelle can't trap itself.

I'll post my thoughts on Gothitelle tomorrow, it's getting pretty late.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

While opposing Gothitelle do have a good shot at revenging if they have a super effective coverage move, you're more likely to force a switch than revenge kill the opponent's Gothitelle. As I found out earlier on IRC, Shadow Tag can't trap Shadow Tag, which makes Gothitelle a sub par revenge killer compared to more established ones like Tauros.

EDIT: Cbb is a ninja.

 

[Flashrider57]

Right. Forgot that...late in the night for me...a number of people forget that, though, so that would explain the kills I've been getting.

Anyway, I'm betting on a rise in Skuntanks soon to counter Gothitelles, since they are fairly bulky and can take on Gothitelles...

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I support django's music choice. Good song, great link

I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE ZEB.

So, with Gothitelle rising in popularity I believe it's time to dust off the old VoltTurn strategy. We have plenty of good Pokemon that can use the switching moves, such as Cinccino, Rotom, Probopass, and others. I think I'd rather try them all out than start running shed shells on Goth-weak 'mons. Let the shenanigans begin.

I'm really loving volt turn atm, it's also one of the best ways of defeating some of the best players in NU because many times it comes down to gaining the best momentum. I think we might want to rediscover electrode with aftermath and maybe foul play for golurk (and rain dance since 90% of ladder players have a ludicolo weakness). Sad very few good u-turners are not weak to rocks in NU and nothing good stabs it (why u no u-turn leavanny!).

This being said I don't think it's such a neccesity against gothitelle. even after 6 calm minds it still can't hit darks and is OHKO'ed by a couple of faster threats and choiced sets aren't that powerful either. Plus it faces stiff cometition from all the good psychic types in NU such as gardevoir kadabra and musharna.

 

[melvni]

I've actually been surprised by how few Gothitelle I've seen seeing as it was supposed to be taking over the metagame. I think I saw one today in at least 30 or 40 battles, and all it did was die to my Exploding Garbodor (on that note, I'd like to point out I'd definitely consider suicide moves an alternative to Shed Shell on things that Gothitelle traps that it can't OHKO).

Personally instead of running Shed Shell on Alomomola, I've just switched to running Healing Wish instead of an attack to stop Gothitelle from setting up on it. There are very few situations where Alomomola cares about being able to attack (since it can't break most Subs anyway, the most common thing in the meta immune to Toxic resists water attacks, and I was fine beforehand just running Knock Off as its only attack), and the difference between recovering 50% and 62.5% when using Wish+Protect is big in a lot of situations (such as when checking four attack Zangoose). The lack of an ability to attack at all has been annoying a couple times, but, once again, Alomomola really relies on that ridiculous amount of recovery to safely check the stronger physical threats out there.

Like Amoonguss it's obviously not going to be down here by the next tier shifts.

Side note, but why do people assume Amoonguss is leaving after the next tier shift? Last month it was only at 3.922% in OU (above the cutoff but not by much), 2.590% in UU, and 2.425% in RU, and now there's one more thing that completely destroys it out (unless it sacrifices leftovers for Shed Shell, which doesn't seem as viable in the higher tiers, though I can't say I've played enough matches up there to test this).

I'm really loving volt turn atm, it's also one of the best ways of defeating some of the best players in NU because many times it comes down to gaining the best momentum. I think we might want to rediscover electrode with aftermath and maybe foul play for golurk (and rain dance since 90% of ladder players have a ludicolo weakess). Sad very few good u-turners are not weak to rocks in NU and nothing good stabs it (why u no u-turn leavanny!).

Another Side note, don't run Foul Play on anything with low attack like Electrodes base 50 at the moment as PS doesn't have it programmed correctly (unless they fixed it since I asked about it a few weeks ago, and I haven't seen anything saying they have). Currently (once again, unless they fixed it) it just functions as a regular 95 STAB physical dark move.

Edit: Disregard this last point (thank's EBeast, it's a cool move and I'm glad they have it working correctly now). I thought from the response I got that it wasn't a high priority but I guess they had time to deal with it. I might have to dust off Foul Play Amoonguss again now that it doesn't require actual attack at least non-non-investment to do things like KO Linoone as it sets up (one sweeping me after Foul Play only did 25% post-Belly Drum was what caused me to discover the glitch in the first place).

 

[ebeast]

I support django's music choice. Good song, great link

This being said I don't think it's such a neccesity against gothitelle. even after 6 calm minds it still can't hit darks and is OHKO'ed by a couple of faster threats and choiced sets aren't that powerful either. Plus it faces stiff cometition from all the good psychic types in NU such as gardevoir kadabra and musharna.

I hope you are referring to the Rest/Sleep Talk/Calm Mind/Psychic set when you said it couldn't touch Dark-types at +6. By then +6 TBolt/Signal Beam is taking down Absol, Cacturne, Skuntank, and even Scraggy. Max HP / Max Def Gothitelle can actually live LO Sucker Punch from Adamant Absol which is pretty cool as well. As for the last thing Gothitelle does something that none of the the other Psychic-types you mentioned can do, trap other Pokemon. While Gardevoir could prob do SubCM or Specs better than Gothitelle, Gothi's ability to trap Pokemon with Shadow Tag gives it a completely different niche and is completely different to play around.

• 252Atk Life Orb Absol (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 252HP/252Def Gothitelle (+Def): 80% - 95% (278 - 330 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO
  
• 0SpAtk +6 Gothitelle (Neutral) Thunderbolt vs 4HP/0SpDef Skuntank (Neutral): 111% - 131% (389 - 458 HP). Guaranteed OHKO
  
• 0SpAtk +6 Gothitelle (Neutral) Thunderbolt vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Scraggy (+SpDef): 51% - 60% (157 - 185 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO
  
• 0SpAtk +6 Gothitelle (Neutral) Thunderbolt vs 80HP/0SpDef Cacturne (Neutral): 65% - 77% (197 - 232 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO

Cacturne lives TBolt but obviously gets destroyed by Signal Beam


EDIT: @Melvni They fixed it, just tested Foul Play Absol to see if it could do that 95 BP STAB move, but it only did like 36% to Gothitelle. Would have been fun to abuse though

 

[Sweet Jesus]

I hope you are referring to the Rest/Sleep Talk/Calm Mind/Psychic set when you said it couldn't touch Dark-types at +6. By then +6 TBolt/Signal Beam is taking down Absol, Cacturne, Skuntank, and even Scraggy. Max HP / Max Def Gothitelle can actually live LO Sucker Punch from Adamant Absol which is pretty cool as well. As for the last thing Gothitelle does something that none of the the other Psychic-types you mentioned can do, trap other Pokemon. While Gardevoir could prob do SubCM or Specs better than Gothitelle, Gothi's ability to trap Pokemon with Shadow Tag gives it a completely different niche and is completely different to play around.

• 252Atk Life Orb Absol (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 252HP/252Def Gothitelle (+Def): 80% - 95% (278 - 330 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO
• 0SpAtk +6 Gothitelle (Neutral) Thunderbolt vs 4HP/0SpDef Skuntank (Neutral): 111% - 131% (389 - 458 HP). Guaranteed OHKO
• 0SpAtk +6 Gothitelle (Neutral) Thunderbolt vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Scraggy (+SpDef): 51% - 60% (157 - 185 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO
• 0SpAtk +6 Gothitelle (Neutral) Thunderbolt vs 80HP/0SpDef Cacturne (Neutral): 65% - 77% (197 - 232 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO

Cacturne lives TBolt but obviously gets destroyed by Signal Beam


EDIT: @Melvni They fixed it, just tested Foul Play Absol to see if it could do that 95 BP STAB move, but it only did like 36% to Gothitelle. Would have been fun to abuse though

wow suprised to see it can live an absol sucker punch, I didn't even calc it I thought it was an easy OHKO but apparently not (though I doubt the thing it sets up on will really leave it with 100% health).

Of course I was talking about the psychic only set I'm very aware other move will kill darks but I haven't seen anyone use a 2 coverage CM set yet. Absol is still faster and as I said, unless it's setting up on something really weak like audino, it probably won't take that absol sucker punch.

I'm very aware goth can trap and how good trapping a poke is. I just want to point out that he is taking the psychic spot of the team (2 psychic gets very pursuit weak) and that when choosing goth, you're missing out on plenty of other awesome psychic pokes.

 

[Django]

ah excellent thread title.

Anyway, Gothitelle is certainly a great Pokemon in NU, but from my experience it fits pretty well. It really really struggles against offensive teams, where most Pokemon will outspeed it and be capable of 2HKOing it. Of course there is always the option of running Scarf to somewhat overcome this, but Scarf is incredibly weak and just bad against any sort of defensive team. Specs is certainly its best set, and having something capable of breaking down Regen cores is definitely a positive. Gothitelle also actually forces you to think about what your doing, in the same vein as Zangoose, something which can be seriously lacking in NU. Really enjoying this round so far.

 

[Annoyer]

I think the mono-attacker resttalk set is Gothitelle's best set. It can setup on a multitude of pokemon (in fact, it sets up on 5/6 of my current team). If the other team doesn't have a dark type, at least 2 pokemon are going down on the opponent's team.

I mean, if you're playing against most of the PS ladder (which is terribad) you might be taking down many Pokemon with Gothitelle in a single match simply due to the lack of skill on the opponent's side. However, I don't think Gothitelle actually can take down more than one Pokemon per match if you're playing against users that know what they're doing, and am still a bit on the fence about whether it should be NU or not.

No amount of skill can stop Gothitelle from setting up to +6 or just revenging your pokemon. Once Gothitelle is at +6, not much can stop it aside from Dark types. Plus Gothitelle will always live every Pursuit and can Rest up on a slower mon later in the match whenever it wants to. They key difference between Gothitelle and other sweepers is that instead of it can set up on this mon or it can kill this mon, it does. There isn't much you can do to stop it. I admit that Gothitelle doesn't have the best matchup against offensives teams but it can always take a hit from say Zangoose or Swellow and retaliate with a game-changing Psychic.

To show how Gothitelle can be game-breaking, pretend your opponent has 5 Mons that will easily get swept by Gurdurr so your gameplan is to try to sweep with Gurdurr. Then your opponent brings in Gothitelle on Gurdurr or even after Gurdurr has killed something and your main way to win the game is gone and you can't do anything about it (lol shed shell gurdurr). Now your opponent can easily sweep you with Absol now that Gurdurr has fainted and the tides are completely flipped. As a joke on the PS ladder, I've been running around with a level 1 Mawile and a Gothitelle. For every single match I had that didn't have a dark type, Gothitelle took out at least 3 Mons (the most it took out was 5 because of a crit). Those are just my two cents at the moment about Gothitelle and I will edit later about the rest of the meta (which is very enjoyable).

 

[Explorer]

Gothitelle is wrecking the NU metagame; it appears in about 50% of all of my NU battles these days. I've even seen at least one person run both Gothorita and Gothitelle to get two Shadow Tag users. Any set without Rest can also be Toxic-stalled unless the Toxic user dies before Gothitelle, then it can switch to a cleric to Heal Bell off the Poison.

Another option is Toxic Spikes. Because of the usefulness of this hazard to harm Gothitelle, I predict a rise in usage of Garbodor because it can both set up AND absorb TSpikes.

 

[WhiteDMist]

@Explorer: Garbodor just becomes another option for Gothitelle to set up on with the many different Calm Mind sets, or hit with a Specs Psychic.

Gothitelle is definitely an amazing Pokemon in the NU tier, but it's effectiveness really depends on the team match-up. Defensive teams have a lot of trouble dealing with it since it can set up Sub and Calm Minds easily against them. Offensive teams usually only have a single member that is Gothitelle weak, so Gothitelle only has a sinlge opportunity to set up (CM) or attack (Specs) usually. Balanced teams tend to carry things like Amoonguss that Gothitelle LOVES to trap and set up on. The way I see it is that Gothitelle will push an already offensively oriented metagame further towards the side of offense. At the very least, it may knock Amoonguss of it's #1 usage spot. :/

 

[KingQuag]

Awww...You already chose a song for this discussion.
I was going to suggest "The Clash - Should I Stay or Should I Go"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ

I don't have much experience with Shadow Tag Gothitelle to appropriately slap my thoughts down here. I just wanted to post the song. :3

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

I think the mono-attacker resttalk set is Gothitelle's best set. It can setup on a multitude of pokemon (in fact, it sets up on 5/6 of my current team). If the other team doesn't have a dark type, at least 2 pokemon are going down on the opponent's team.

With the ridiculous amount of Cinccino, Zangoose, and other Psychic-types running around prior to Gothitelle's DW release, I think most NU players should already be running at least one of the Sucker Punchers on their teams. Skuntank, Absol, and even Kangaskhan are all quite powerful and can easily revenge kill a Gothitelle using a mono-attacking set.

No amount of skill can stop Gothitelle from setting up to +6 or just revenging your pokemon. Once Gothitelle is at +6, not much can stop it aside from Dark types. Plus Gothitelle will always live every Pursuit and can Rest up on a slower mon later in the match whenever it wants to. They key difference between Gothitelle and other sweepers is that instead of it can set up on this mon or it can kill this mon, it does. There isn't much you can do to stop it. I admit that Gothitelle doesn't have the best matchup against offensives teams but it can always take a hit from say Zangoose or Swellow and retaliate with a game-changing Psychic.

A lot of players think that getting a Pokemon up to +6 means that they automatically win because their Pokemon is effectively "invincible." This is foolish thinking. Anything faster than Gothitelle with powerful physical attacks still has a chance to revenge kill it. You already mentioned Dark-types, which are another easy way to counter any Gothitelle set not running coverage options. Besides that, with Shed Shell you can outright avoid Gothitelle setting up and beating one of your vulnerable Pokemon. As has already been said here and in the Gothitelle discussion thread, players are going to have to start running Shed Shell on their Goth-vulnerable 'mons; otherwise, Gothitelle is either going to continually crush their walls or we're going to see a withdrawal from defensive playing and an even larger increase in the amount of hyper offense in the tier.

To show how Gothitelle can be game-breaking, pretend your opponent has 5 Mons that will easily get swept by Gurdurr so your gameplan is to try to sweep with Gurdurr. Then your opponent brings in Gothitelle on Gurdurr or even after Gurdurr has killed something and your main way to win the game is gone and you can't do anything about it (lol shed shell gurdurr). Now your opponent can easily sweep you with Absol now that Gurdurr has fainted and the tides are completely flipped. As a joke on the PS ladder, I've been running around with a level 1 Mawile and a Gothitelle. For every single match I had that didn't have a dark type, Gothitelle took out at least 3 Mons (the most it took out was 5 because of a crit). Those are just my two cents at the moment about Gothitelle and I will edit later about the rest of the meta (which is very enjoyable).

First of all, if your opponent is running 5 Gurdurr-weak Pokemon and they have a Gothitelle, you should be smart enough to know what's going to happen if you send in your Gurdurr before you kill their Gothitelle. Additionally, you have 5 other Pokemon; if Gurdurr was the only way you could have won that match, maybe you weren't supposed to win in the first place. Also, the fact that you're beating players on the ladder with a level 1 Mawile further attests to how terrible the players on it really are.

 

[Raseri]

Hello everyone! I've been to lazy to post here, and my attempts to get Keiran to post here have failed. So here I am! Frankly, I love the meta right now, Gothitelle has really spiced things up, and it doesn't even seem broken. The state of the tier is allowing to perform its job(s) but isn't worthy of suspect status like it is in UU and RU.


I personally love this meta since it is very offensive, every team is simply trying to sweep before the opposition, so nearly every turn matters!

Now I will hype a bunch of Pokemon that you guys should use more:

• Regice - it sweeps teams, it is bulky, it has a great movepool.
• Lapras - fast enough to be a threat, strong enough to be relevant, great movepool
• Vigoroth - so bulky that it walls everything. Resident SOp Zebraiken is a fan

And now in a very unique attempt to revive this thread I leave you guys a few questions:

• What is your opinion on the metagame right now?
• What threats do you believe are overrated? Underrated?

that is all


keiran sucks

 

[Full2Half]

as of right now, i love this metagame. With as much as i hate stall, this is paradise because there is almost none to be seen. Bulky offense has become a very popular build, and ive been using it to great success for quite some time. Not to mention we have stuff like scarf zebra who can outrun EVERYTHING and KO weakened threats. As well as the likes of zangoose that will easily sweep despite the small amount of time it has to live.

As for underrated mons, there have been quite a few that ive seen and used. I agree with raseri that regice and lapras are very potent threats, although I dont really have experiance with vigoroth. Gurdurr and klang are both amazing and under used, but you already knew that. I have recently been using teams centered around arbok, all of which got pretty decent before bs hax. I am currently running a team that features a great deal of underrated threats and it has been great. As I mentioned, arbok is a great bulky sweeper that ruins more defensively based teams. Gurdurr is also underused, although I am seeing a large influx of them lately. Also on my team, is a known, but underused set that is offensive miltank. It's a bit weak, but it's speed is great (it outruns zangoose with max!) and it has a nice strong double edge. It can also set up SR and adjust his resistences depending on the ability you give him. I don't really think anything is overrated atm except wartortle and armaldo, who are only high in usage because spinners. Neither of which are great because lolwartortle and armaldo is easily disposed of by a lot of the meta.

 

[Ewil]

I agree with F2H, except for the stall thing (i rly love stall :P).

Gurrdur is awesome, you have only to remove psychic and flying-type mons (once flying are a bit weaked and Gurr has 2-3 BU, is gg for more of them).

Garbodor gotta drops in usage due to Ghotitelle. This latter mon is pretty good, actually the best use i see of her is the Dual Screens set, coz you can setup on a lot of things and provide your offensive team with a lot of support.

Yep, Armaldo is used only for Rapid Spin and i saw many of them.

Regice is really annoying, i hate him every time i face one expecially the Restalk set with Ice Beam+Charge Beam :/

Lapras is good and i saw many of them, but i think that he/she rises a lot. He has good coverage and speed but nothing more and his weak to all hazards. HydraRest maybe is his best set.

Vigoroth i've faced one and yep, he's pretty bulky.

The premier spiker for now is Cacturne that gives the team a nice offensive presence with spikes, obv.

Yep, nothing is broken for now, but i really wish that stalls will see more light in the future :)

EDIT: What you guys thinks about the ban of Sand Veil in OU, for the NU means a no Bullet Seed+Encore Cacturne. It's a little change, but is always a nerf for the shadow Cactus.

 

[jake]

ughh vigoroth <3

nothing is quite as bulky, fast, and strong as it is, and it's really easy to support. just pack something to remove haunter / drifblim (and ghosts in general if you're using taunt + bu) as well as a fighting-resist or two and you're set. taunt + toxic and taunt + bu are both amazing sets that set up all over stall and are really useful for breaking apart defensive cores, although taunt + toxic has difficulty busting through amoong and they both have troubles with probo / bastiodon.

my other favorite, underrated set as of late is sub + bu braviary. more than a few times it's saved an otherwise mediocre team from a complete sweep - i set up on cb ice punch golurk once and also stalled out a musharna spamming psychic until i got a spD which activated defiant, allowing me to ohko. most people will just sit in there with alomomola or whatever to toxic while you sub, and then they're like 'hmm shit' and waterfall / scald you to find that neither move actually breaks your sub while you just bulk up. by the time they realize they're screwed, the game is pretty much over - and even if something like regirock is still around, you can just laugh while you stall out their stone edges with sub + roost and then 2hko with a +2 bb or return. plus, it takes like 70% from timid lo gardevoir tbolt. it's a champ like no other.

i'll probably post thoughts on the metagame in general later :o