Metagame NP: NU Stage 8 - Spooky [Regidrago and Snorlax banned]

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Danny

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ZU Circuit Champion
View attachment 361395 (I've run out of creative nicknames)
Starmie functions decently as a spinner with flip turn and natural cure supplemented by its high speed. however, this set suffers from the fact that it still needs to invest heavily in speed to outspeed pokemon like salazzle in order to beat them, which leaves its defensive presence meagre. however, it can still find a place on a few teams which need that specific niche.
How are u gonna miss the easiest one ;)

Patrick Star
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
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To get discussion going again, I want to know what everyone's thoughts are on these Pokemon as the meta stands.

The Threats
:rotom-mow: - At first, I thought this Pokemon would still be the bust it always was. Just like when we had Flygon, people kept hyping it up only for it to fall flat time and time again, but I was dead wrong. This mon is arguably the best in the meta, and not because it's necessarily broken, but because of the playstyle it enables. The ability to consistently bring in breakers like Fetch'd or Golurk is wild, and with NP Volt sets, it can even clean late game. I'd be open to seeing some form of action on it just because of how restricting it feels in game and the builder, but I don't think it's urgent.

:sirfetchd: - This guy is still insane. Scrappy CC can OHKO or 2HKO majority of the meta, and that doesn't even count Leek sets which can cheese teams or making switching in effectively impossible. Majority of the defensive counterplay is relegated to burn fishing with Talon, Sylveon without hazards up, or Garb wearing it down to limit its chances to wreak havoc, all of which are easily taken advantage of in the builder (obviously there's more like Xatu or revenging it, but you get the idea). I'd love a suspect on this. #freethecofameta

:blastoise: - Stoise is still running around doing Stoise things, sweeping and cheesing so many teams, especially after some chip. It really hasn't been hurt by the screens nerf in the slightest since it only ever needed 2 turns or so behind screens to go off and screens HO is still really good imo, until you face a Quag. Another mon that deserves a suspect to me or to be looked at, but I do know that on the community survey it scored a lot lower than last time so it can definitely wait or go last. It seemed to have dropped off in ladder and tour usage, so maybe it's just being pushed aside, who knows?

:bronzong: - ID BP sets can just straight up beat a lot of teams prepped for Zong in some way, especially when paired with Rest. I think the meta is going to adapt a lot more around that set, but I'm curious at how people are stopping it?

Pokemon That Are Better Now
:toxicroak: - This Pokemon is so so good right now. Without Flygon in the mix, Croak can often set up and straight up sweep between the combination of its STAB's and Sucker Punch for faster threats like Starmie or Talon. I've been loving mixing up the moveset, too, with additions like Knock Off or Earthquake last helping to beat down potential answers like Garb or stopping Muds passive recovery for either something else or itself to sweep later. You can never go wrong with Croak on your team

:Passimian: - Pass fits into the meta really well in the wake of Flygon and the rise of Garb making hazard stack possible. As a Fighting-type with U-Turn, solid attack, and a good ability, Pass has quickly risen to become my scarfer of choice, fitting super well with pivots like Mowtom and Xatu and easily cleaning a lot of teams. Super fun and definitely worth a look in the builder.

:vileplume: - I think it's hilarious that we all just collectively decided not to use Plume once we banned Goro, like for no reason at all. It's still just as annoying as ever, deterring Fetch'd CC's, beating Drap, Guzz, Copper, etc, and can sweep more defensive teams with Growth sets. There is no reason this thing should ever drop off here.

:drapion: - There seems to be a Poison-type trend here in the Flygone meta, who could've guessed, and Drap fits right in there. So many teams are threatened or swept by this Pokemon, and with a great speed tier and good typing, it can reliably threaten Knock's on a lot of meta trends like Zong, Xatu, or even Mowtom, if you get in on it. I love Drapion and hate facing it.

Some Cool Stuff With Potential
:palossand: - A Ground with reliable recovery who consistently beats ID Zong, Diancie, Toxicroak, and choiced Heliolisk is really really nice atm, and it can also spread Toxic's or burns with Scorching Sands and set up SR, making it a really cool option to consider in the builder. I've been enjoying running it alot and I believe it has a noteworthy enough niche to get some traction (also it would mess up PU if we stole it in conjunction with Pass so that's fun).

:gigalith: / :Lycanroc: / :sandslash: - I'm waiting for the Ho3n team based around these three, but until then, we should all consider a look at Sand as an option in the tier now that Flygon got stolen. With not many Ground-types in the tier, the sweepers can now run wild under Sand, whether with CB or an SD boost. Something to play around with for sure and I would love if people shared their successes or teams with this archetype so I can go back to cheesing ladder.

:Magneton: - This mon has always been good, but now in a meta where Volt's are a lot more free and trapping Steel's is more important than ever, consider Mag. Even forcing minimal chip on something like Zong turns Exploud from a threat to claiming a kill every time it comes onto the field, giving it a nice and fun niche.

Tell me what you think about a lot of these mons. What else do you love using atm?
 
Been loving the meta so far and excited to see how the meta continues to develop.
I want to know what everyone's thoughts are on these Pokemon as the meta stands.
use SS sprites btw !!!

- To be honest, I'm not too sold on Rotom-C being broken or restrictive, not even in battle. While for sure it's a crazy enabler of those insane pivot cores, I see it as more of an annoyance than something broken or unhealthy. It has great set variety and diversity but in my opinion, is a healthy part of the meta. Perhaps in the future it'll end up like how Mienshao is doing in RU, but for now I think it's fine.

- I don't know, I just don't find this thing being broken or unhealthy in any way. I made a lot of arguments for Leek ban a month ~ back but honestly I think it's fine either way. I don't see its breaking power too much for the tier, and I also don't think you need any special or fancy Pokemon(s) to take care of it. Honestly fine in my personal opinion, wouldn't be opposed to a suspect though.

- Blastoise is a Pokemon that is similar to Rotom-C in my opinion, where it's super annoying to deal with but not super broken. It 6-0's all of my 'meme' and fun teams but besides that it's like, okay? Not really though but I don't have too much thoughts or opinions beyond it. I think more people should definitely use it though.

- A couple months ago I and many ppl were complaining about Bronzong not because it was broken, but because it was STUPIDLY annoying. Protect/tox was so annoying, I never would've imagined it to get even more annoying to deal with but here we are now. Honestly most of the time I slap on a Xatu and call it a day. However, I've been experimenting with some more Pokemon that have yielded me positive results in taking down Zong. Darkest Lariat Machamp has been something I've been having a lot of fun with lately, as with Special Guzzlord and Palossand. Definitely not broken at all but like, really annoying

- Croak has been one of my favourite mons to use recently. I've been loving it as an SD setup sweeper, capable of sweeping games very, very easily. The feeling of Gunking a Talonflame on the switch is truly amazing. The rise of bulky poisons is kind of annoying though, but otherwise is almost always putting in a lot of work. Its speed tier is also really nice, outspeed all of the slow wallbreakers and annoyances like Xatu is always really nice.

- I've been LOVING Passimian recently, usually my to-go fighting type and Scarfer. I think it is a great late-game cleaner and overall synergizes well on VoltTurn/ Pivot cores. The potential to just OHKO and lure Talonflame is amazing as well. In my opinion, more people should be using it

- Such a nuisance to deal with. It has like a million different moves it can use and utilizes them all well. Not sure why it fell off so much after Goro was banned but is making a resurgence now, or at least a big increase in usage.

I love Drapion and hate facing it.
- Been using it recently and it's yielded decent results? I've been quite impressed with it to say the least. I love its compression as a Zong check, rocker that beats Xatu, and overall as a standalone ground-mon. Besides the wish passers giving it some trouble, it's honestly like really fun to use. Would recommend

- Sand is super fun to use, and imo is a consistent and completely viable playstyle. Like most people have been saying, it's super unexplored, meaning there's a lot of cool potential techs/ support Pokemon that have yet to be fully utilized. Sand is a playstyle that can definitely be used in higher ladder and tournament gameplay, which is has been. It was decent when Flygon was here and even better now that it's gone.

- I don't have too much thoughts on this mon. All my teams carry a hard check to this, I haven't seen it be used since Mari's Jask teams. Kind of a bleh mon to me but potent in the right matchups I guess.
 

Lucario

A side must always be chosen
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So lately I've been wanting to build with some mons that at first would do well, but when you face a team with any Steel-type, they do nothing. Some of these Pokemon include Ninjask, Ribombee, Comfey, Aerodactyl, and Indeedee-F.
Tiny shoutout to Roxiee for helping me make sure I didn't look dumb.

Before we get into the problem, lets talk more about these Pokemon I brought up.

:Ribombee: :Ninjask:
These two Pokemon once ran the tier. It was overall a fun meta. Now, only Ninjask has a niche, which is its speed and deadly late-game sweeping potential. Looking at the VR, the S through A- Pokemon that Ribombee can deal with are Rotom-C, Sirfetch'd, Starmie to an extent, Celebi, Guzzlord, and Toxicroak to an extent. It also hits most Pokemon neutrally, but thats a bigger list. Ribombee has so much potential, but cannot do much if there is a Steel-type on the opposing team.
Small note: Whimsicott also works here, while also dealing with Blastoise and Vaporeon, but not much else to note.

:Aerodactyl: :ninjask:
Your boy Ninjask is here, again, as it fits into both groups, but neither Aerodactyl and Ribombee fit together. As Flying typed Pokemon, they can deal with Sirfetch'd, Celebi, Decidueye, Toxicroak, and Vileplume, as well as others through coverage. Aerodactyl does have a way to break through Copperajah and Bronzong, but often lacks the power to get a clean OHKO (unless it is running Choice Band).

:Comfey: :indeedee-f:
Overall, these Pokemon kind of suck. However, that is mostly due to the Steels (and a lack of Hidden Power for Comfey). With Fairy + Psychic coverage, they can run through the tier, but they have restrictions, being the Steel types.

There are other Pokemon, such as Dragalge, Exploud, Tauros, Glastrier, Goodra, and Tyrantrum that would also love the removal of Steel types, but they would also be much more dangerous than these previously mentioned Pokemon. It just goes to show that the current Steel types are too good.

Now, let's get onto the problem, which as you have read so far, are Bronzong and Copperajah. Escavalier can also be problematic, but I won't be talking about it right now.

:bronzong:
The current best Pokemon of the tier (alongside Rotom-C). It has risen hard with ID + Body Press, but has other sets like Stealth Rock. Heatproof has also risen the ranks due to its insane stopping power and a lack of Flygon. This Pokemon has few checks, almost all of which are Ghost-types. Sure, Xatu can be a problem for it, but it has ways to deal with it through Heavy Slam, Toxic Orb + Trick, and even Shadow Ball.

:copperajah:
While being a fantastic Stealth Rock user, we all know it for its Assault Vest set. Its base 130 Attack stat is also a huge reason why it has its identity of a Special wall that is really versatile with its sets. This Pokemon has the moves to break the tier, and has done so as it is a top 3 Pokemon and always has been.

Both Bronzong and Copperajah have been running the tier for a while now. They have allowed for some Pokemon to shine in their roles, while others have gone unnoticed. In my response to the recent survey, I didn't list them as potential Pokemon that are broken or worthy of a suspect. However, I believe they both are too restricting on the builder and the player for the tier.

Why are they too restricting?
1. For Bronzong, you almost always will need either a Ghost type or another Fighting resist that can deal with both Bronzong and Sirfetch'd. Versus Copperajah, you will always need some sort of Fighting or Ground type.
2. IDPress Zong runs through so many teams, the common checks of Xatu and Decidueye often cannot deal with Bronzong's teammates like Guzzlord or Drapion.
3. AV Copper's teammates, such as Vaporeon/Sylveon and Ninjask can handle Sirfetch'd, Passimian, but have troubles with Toxicroak, which are the biggest threats Copper faces.

NU leaders and council, please look into Copper and Bronzong a little more. While Sirfetch'd and Blastoise are threats, these two are as well and deserve the same attention.
 

Ren-chon

Lifesbane, 36 layers. How does it look?
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I really dont agree with the notion of either Bronzong or Copperajah needing to be looked at. Both are really good Pokémon in the current meta, and have been a top tier pick for a good while now, but none are necessarily overcentralizing nor require super specific counterplay. You have to be mindful of them when building simply because theyre really good picks rn, in the same vein as, for example, Weavile, Tapu Koko and Urshifu-R in OU: really good 'mons with sufficient, non-niche counterplay, as in, the things that check them are also good for other reasons. The same thing applies to Zong and Copp: Lazzle, WoW Talonflame, fight-types, LO Starmie, Xatu, ghost-types and bulky waters, to name a "few", are all options that can handle one, if not both, of Zong and Copp while being perfectly fine picks otherwise.

Also one more thing is that your list seems kinda... Weird? You listed some Pokémon that Copp and Zong can beat, yeah, but... So what? I mean, some of the ones you listed would be outright broken without our common steel-types, while others dont even mind them that much. Ninjask just U-Turns away (which it always does regardless of the existence of a steel-type or not), Comfey and Indeedee-F would be just absurd without the ability to use steels to pivot on them or to stop a sweep, meanwhile others like Aerodactyl, Tauros, Exploud and Tyrantrum dont even care that much since they have the tools needed to muscle through the steel dogs. Just because some options are held back due to the existence of steel-types, doesnt mean our best steels are broken or anything, it just means you need extra support when running said 'mons. Taunt Comfey can deal with non-HSlam Zong, while U-Turn sets can chip and pivot out of Copp; Ind-F can make a potentially lethal core with Specs Sylveon to muscle through steels, or with things like Band Guzz that can take advantage of your opp using Zong to pivot into; Ninjask literally doesnt care; and Ribombee was already bad when our only fairy resisting steel was Stunfisk-G.

Bronzong and Copperajah are all meta defining picks, theres no denying, but they arent without flaws: first of, Bronzong is often delegated to a SR setter which 1) greatly restricts what coverage it can run on an ID BP set, 2) means its only recovery will be Leftovers, and 3) gives the opponent EVEN MORE free turns to react to it between ID-ing and SR-ing. Not only that, but even in games where it does find the chance to set-up its still all but guaranteed that it will actually manage to sweep, since we arent lacking on ways to deal with it. Right now I can think of snagas game in the latest NUPL, TDKs game also for NUPL, and my own for NU Swiss. In all these games Bronzong had multiple shots at setting up but then, even when it did get to +2 or +4, it just... Did nothing after. It lacks ways to really get past a lot of the tier and often enough itll just ID to kill a Copperajah or whatever and then be forced out. Also the notion that itll always have a wish passer and a cleric on its team while also being able to run things like Rest so it always stay healthy and making sure your team just doesnt straight up loses to ghosts or fights puts a lot of strain on the one building WITH Bronzong if you truly want it to just sweep through teams.

As for Copperajah, I did find it a bit overwhelming before and was an avid voter for it to stay S for quite a long time, but nowadays I actually dont think its AS good as it used to be mainly bcuz its SR set sucks and AV kinda makes it so you have to run Sylveon or Vaporeon because even with an Assault Vest its still 3HKOd by a lot of stuff its meant to check. And as if that wasnt enough, its abysmally low speed means it cant even take full advantage of its AMAZING coverage, as you either need to correctly guess what your opp will switch into and answer accordingly or youll just get outsped and crippled.

Theyre both super good Pokémon, cant deny that, but imo theyre still a bit far from being considered too much. They got non-niche counterplay (things you use to check them can still be really good even if your opp doesnt have them), can be checked through either offensive pressure or just outright walling'em so both offense and more bulkier teams can deal with, and they both suffer from wanting to do too much while not having the resources to do so: ID Rest Zong REALLY wants both Psychic and Toxic, while SR wants all of Toxic, ID, BP and Psychic; and Copperajah either has to run 4 atks forcing you to go with a wish passer + another SR setter, or give up on a precious coverage making dealing with it a multitude of times easier.
 
HACKING TO THE GATE (of the top NU ladder)


top 30.png

proof of the peak / p.s.: henrique, se vc tiver vendo isso, eu te amo <3

Time to bring this thread back to life with some spice! Here are some takes on Pokémon I've used to reach my current position on the top 30 of the NU ladder with nearly 90% GXE!

:ss/swirlix: a.k.a Feyris ~nyannyan
I say this with extreme confidence: Swirlix is, currently, the preferred webs setter for the playstyle. Not only does Magic Coat provide a reliable way to keep Toxic Spikes and other entry hazards, common nuisances for hyper-offensive teams, away from the field, access to Misty Explosion denies Defog and Rapid Spin from the opponent. Furthermore, access to Endeavor as an extremely potent way to weaken checks to breakers on the back makes Swirlix also a potent nuisance to immediately get rid of.
However, I do recognize webs as a whole isn't an extremely consistent playstyle and can be slightly matchup fishy. I also would like to give a shoutout to Ribombee as a webs setter that can utilize its Skill Swap attack to freely setup webs against Xatu (but I'll always prefer my sweet treat...!).
#RankSwirlix
:ss/diancie: a.k.a tuturuu
Diancie is a great pokémon overall, that has been known for a while. However, I've been exploring more offensive sets of the diamond (all centered around Meteor Beam) such as Rock Polish, Stealth Rock + 3 Atks and 4 Atks. I've found out that Diancie is an extremely potent offensive threat that should not be underrestimated. It is capable of sweeping through teams with little support, can break extremely well thanks to the busted Meteor Beam boost and can still provide defensive utility against the likes of Exploud, Talonflame, Xatu, and even Salazzle despite not having defensive inestment. Definitely give offensive variants of Diancie a try!

:ss/duraludon: a.k.a shining finger

Duraludon has quickly risen to popularity with its potent Eject Pack set. Providing momentum via an extremely powerful move in Draco Meteor, possessing great STAB, Steel-type coverage and even moves such as Dark Pulse and Thunderbolt that allow it to chip down the likes of Bronzong and Vaporeon, all while providing Stealth Rock support to more offensively-inclined teams. Its defensive typing is also stellar, allowing for it to blanket check Pokémon like Ninjask, Talonflame, and even Copperajah.

:ss/scrafty: a.k.a part-time warrior a.k.a
JOHN TITOR


Scrafty is an absolute demon. Possessing extreme versatility with sets such as BU, DD and Phys. Def, Scrafty is able to fit multiple teams as either a win-condition or a supporting, glue Pokémon. Defensive variants are extremely solid checks to the likes of Guzzlord, Copperajah, Tauros, Golurk, Decidueye and Dhelmise, and Glastrier. Dragon Dance variants are able to thrive against teams on the late-game after Fairy-types have been weakened and Bulk Up variants are very arduous for unprepared teams to deal with. Make sure to give this Pokémon a try while its fresh!

:ss/haunter: a.k.a Rukako

I've also been playing around with Specs Haunter for a while now and it has proved to be an extremely potent offensive threat. Nearly-unresisted STAB combination in Ghost and Poison in conjunction with great filler options in Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Trick and even Disable makes Haunter a premier offensive threat in the current metagame.

Honorable mentions:
:ss/heliolisk:a.k.a Super Hacker (SubGlare, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf)
:ss/uxie: a.k.a The Zombie (Utility, CM + Kee, CM + Terrain Seed, Trick Room lead) #ReRankUxie

imthatgood.png

bonus: Corthius doubting my Pokémon expertise and natural talent.
 
Sort of cluttered post but discussion, right?

:ss/froslass:
After seeing its decent-ish RU usage (?) I wanted to give it a go, mostly as a spikes setter on HO. It's been preforming pretty decently recently, so I thought I'd share some thoughts and pros on it (and why you should consider using it!)

Froslass (F) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 80 HP / 176 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Icy Wind
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond

Here is a set that I think works okay. The set is pretty standard, with the special attack investment intended for the 2HKO on Xatu, while still making sure you land on an odd number of HP and maintain maximum (?) bulk. I think it's pretty neat, as with this set you also don't lose to bs Defog Talonflame, who can BB you and better outplay your Destiny Bonds. Spike stack offense isn't that common, but extremely deadly in the right matchups. There isn't really much to say, other than to try Froslass out on your offense teams if you have the time!

:ss/ribombee:

Catalisador touched on webs in their post above, and I just wanted to chime in and say I think Webs are relatively unexplored right now. Particularly, I think Webs with a slow-ish breaker like Sirfetch'd/Tauros could work well, especially with how not great our hazard removal is. The nice part about Ribombee is its ability to bypass Xatu, which is always a huge bonus. Webs are obviously not a top tier or super consistent playstyle, but a playstyle that I think is a little unexplored right now. Braviary seems like a nice pairing as a Defog detterant as well as a potential setup sweeper/scarfer. Offensive Ghosts are also great too

=================

:ss/vanilluxe: :ss/sandslash-alola:

I'm curious what others think about the possibility of re introducing hail into NU. When it was banned, there was a ton of discussion about whether to ban Arctovish or to ban Snow Warning itself. With Arctozolt banned from UU, I'd like to think that reintroducing hail could be a possibility?

I don't know how to quote someone from different thread but user Just_Aaron said:
"I know the last discussion before the ban was about Arctovish, but the reason that Snow Warning was banned was because it was about to have a third ban related to it, so by being the common denominator, it got banned from NU. This was a move criticized by many. However, now that two of thise factors are nerfed -the LC ban means that AV only lasts 5 turns, and Arctozolt getting banned means that Hail lost its most dangerous sweeper- it could mean that it has a shot at staying."

I agree with the above sentiment, and think that Hail could be legitimately reintroduced to NU, and if any elements are overbearing (Arctovish, Aurora Veil) they can easily just be QB'd or until the time is right to suspect test them. In my eyes Vish and Veil being banned is no different compared to many, many months ago, with Arctozolt being banned as opposed to Arctovish.

I could also just be downplaying/not understanding something right (someone please try and correct me if I am) but I genuinely think Hail should be considered for a reintroduction, or atleast when the October shifts happen. Also Indeedee too
 

Corthius

diehard hockey fan
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Time to post my one-sided view on Hail.
In my opinion, nothing really has changed for Snow Warning other than us losing Flygon (which actually speaks against Hail because Choice Scarf Flygon was faster than Arctovish) and we all remember what happened to the meta. Assuming both Arctovish and Aurora Veil (not 100% sure on this one) get quick-banned and we technically have 'the same ban to not ban ratio' isn't it still two things banned, when Snow Warning would be the issue with those two. Sure we did that in the past with Arctozolt but no one says that the decision was 'right'. From my current understanding it still was still 2 - 1 (2banned, when 1 could be that solves the same issue) which brings the question up, where do we draw the line? Is a 3 - 1 ratio big enough to justify the Snow Warning ban? Or is 2 - 1 enough? Ethical question I don't even bother to try to answer.
I hope this makes sense LOL, my bad if I speak in riddles, feel free to step towards me and ask me or simply reply in here.

The other side of the medal would be the question, why? What does Hail really add o the tier that benefits us?
I guess you could say it adds diversity in offensive playstyles and adds a second rather uncommon/niche weather to abuse; do we need that tho? I don't see the Hail setter being notable offensive breaker, especially with Bronzong being a top tier pokemon. But maybe I am looking at this too black and white, maybe I'm overlooking something really obvious/beneficial but from my current point of view I don't really see the point outside of adding more to the builder which could easily justify the unban (I guess, probably depends on your point of view). Again, feel free to disagree/agree with me in this thread or in pm's w/e feels more comfortable to you.


turtledoggo1 already cut on the topic, but I would really like to hear what pokemon you think could potentially be re-tested?
 
When it comes to the matter of re-testing Snow Warning, the argument I want to held is that, while there were certains aspects of it that were deemed overbearing in the past, not some of them have been nerfed, but also the reasonings for the ban were a little bit controversial.

The reasons that led to the banning of Snow Warning were:
1) Aurora Veil
2) Arctozolt
3) Arctovish

First, Aurora Veil was banned, considering that it was a playstyle that enabled bordeline-broken weaker to become basically unstoppable, and that it usually hada great match-up against most teams. However, almost six months after, RU, and days after, UU, banned Light Clay, which would shorten Veil's duration from 8 turns to 5 turns. This may not seems like big enough of a change, but the fact that dual screens as basically death after this, you could argue that Veil wouldn't become as broken. Also, between the set-up and switching out the setter, you only have 3 turns left, so it isn't as abusable as it once was.

Moving onto Arctozolt, it's combination of power via Bolt Beak and perfect STAB in boltbeam has proven to be too strong for NU... and now even for UU. This means that Arctozolt doesn't play a relevant factor anymore, instead of the arguments being "hey, we already banned 3 things" or even "we banned Hail, so this can comeback and be kept".

Which brings me to a point regarding the damage of banning Snow Warning: the viability of other pokemon. Now, I know that the lower tiers shouldn't play a role in this tier, but I think it's still worth to mention it since the ban does affect them. But the banning of SW let to 3 mons in Abomasnow, Aurorus and Vaniluxe having literally no niche even all the way down to ZU. On the contrary, when hail was banned, Arctozolt, Veil and Arctovish where all usable. However, now Zolt is even in the tier, and no one was using Veil without SW, let alone now with Light Clay banned. So only Vish remains as sort of usable.

So, in regards to Corthius's question "What does Hail really add to the tier that benefits us?" I think it revives a playstyle in hail, that be really good or at least decent, as long as Vish isn't bonkers, but I think that if PU could adapt to it, why not NU? Also it could mean that screen offense could be viable at least. And help the viability of the SW mons in lower tiers as well.

In short, I think Snow Warning could be retested, since while it could be healthy, it could also turn out to be too much, but I think it's worth a shot.
 

Corthius

diehard hockey fan
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnus
The reasons that led to the banning of Snow Warning were:
1) Aurora Veil
2) Arctozolt
3) Arctovish
Don't mix things up here. We banned Snow Warning not because of 1) and 2). We banned Snow Warning because there already were two things that were problematic but with issues that were solved by banning Snow Warning + the solving the new issue/current issue.
We looked for an action on Snow Warning because it was too much for the metagame and we didn't have Arctozolt nor Aurora Veil in that meta at the time. Hail was broken with just Arctovish and the other Slush Rush user in the tier. The ban of Arctozolt and Aurora Veil just became obsolete with the ban of Snow Warning.


First, Aurora Veil was banned, considering that it was a playstyle that enabled bordeline-broken weaker to become basically unstoppable, and that it usually hada great match-up against most teams. However, almost six months after, RU, and days after, UU, banned Light Clay, which would shorten Veil's duration from 8 turns to 5 turns. This may not seems like big enough of a change, but the fact that dual screens as basically death after this, you could argue that Veil wouldn't become as broken. Also, between the set-up and switching out the setter, you only have 3 turns left, so it isn't as abusable as it once was.
I strongly disagree with this part. I don't know if you have been keeping track of ladder trends and sample teams but even after the Light Clay ban, S1nn0h made a really popular dual screens HO team with great success. Dual Screens HO might be dead in higher tiers, but it is still usable and viable in NU. And to keep in mind, dual screens work and are even worse round counting wise than Aurora Veil.
Dual Screens HO might not be the top playstyle currently, but it's not dead nor unviable.


I think it revives a playstyle in hail, that be really good or at least decent, as long as Vish isn't bonkers, but I think that if PU could adapt to it, why not NU?
I have to ask again, what changed in the NU tier that makes you believe Hail will be anything different from what it was when we banned it? If anything Aurora Veil is an addition that makes Hail even better and the loss of Flygon removes one revengekiller we had. Keep in mind, that Arctozolt is NOT something we consider here because it was not allowed anyway when Hail was broken/restricting.

Sorry for the double posting.
 

Mariannabelle

chill guy
Did people already forget how oppressive Hail was with just Arctovish and Sandslash as abusers? Subtract Flygon.

I think there’s quite a few things in NUBL that can be retested instead- mons that don’t complete upheave the meta. There’s a case to be made for quite a few of them:

:Pangoro: :Indeedee: :Tornadus: :Sigilyph: :Porygon-Z: Personally, these stick out to me, in no particular order. Some seem more retestable than others.

Truly, I think *most* of NUBL was banned in different context than what we have now, and at this point continuing to keep them banned is more ‘for the sake of it’ than ‘they are broken now’.
(Of course, I realize that retests take time and discussion before they can happen- but now is a good time for some serious consideration, I think.)

edit: (Also, several NUBL mons are clear non-starters, like Durant and Lucario. Not everything in NUBL is worth retesting, but some? For sure imo.)
 
Leaving the Snow Warning topic aside, when thinking of NUBL mons that should get a retest, I mostly think of :Porygon-Z:, :Indeedee: and maybe :Tornadus:. These 3 I think have best chance at actually staying on the tier.

:Pangoro: and :Bewear: are little bit more complicated to me, since they're, on some aspects at least, better than Sirfetch'd, which is already a tough pokemon to handle. They both have better bulk and useful secondary STAB that can give them the edge over the duck. :Sigilyph:'s coverage and diverse movepool make it difficult to counter without scouting it's moveset prior, which can be tricky, but I think it's possible that it canbe kept in check.
 
Regarding the Hail discussion, I think Corthius makes an important point in looking for an answer to "what has changed since then that would allow hail to be different?". I think finding a clear and demonstrable answer to this question is important in opening up the Hail topic.

I'd be interested in reviewing :porygon-z: and :indeedee: and how they might fit into the current meta since things have stabilized.

:porygon-z: exhibits similar power to Exploud as a breaker, however it has an edge through a a good speed stat that puts it past mowtom, a key speed tier. That and the ability to run a plot or double dance plot+agility set are the main distinctions, with PZ having a few downsides (no scrappy which makes dark pulse/sball necessary, no reliable way to threaten Escavalier like ploud's fire coverage, no bypassing sub via Boomburst). These points make me think that a retest would be worth it to see if PZ could fit back in, as many of the choices who are able to check Exploud right now would be the same that are able to check porygon Z. That being said, the unpredictability of PZ sets versus Exploud's which is expressly Specs may be a lot to prepare for, as would be the potential for having both of these breakers on a team to overwhelm their combined checks. Nevertheless, defensive and offensive checks for PZ exist in the meta and it would be neat to see if PZ could be incorporated.


:indeedee: on the other hand only has a slight power and speed boost over indeedee-F who rarely sees use in the current meta. Specs sets will have massive power but will still be at the mercy of most revenge killers, however the speed tier makes a choice scarf set faster than the wealth of common speed controls minus a few like scarf heliolisk and protect jask. Expanding force in terrain has breaker-level power which can used from a speed control slot, and would-be immunities like Guzzy and Scrafty largely fear a potential dazzling gleam. This would also open up more use of psy-terrain, which has other implications such as limiting the effectiveness of priority moves such as sirfetch'd FI, croak/absol sucker punch, comfey triage etc which are expected techs of the current meta. That being said, the popularity of Heatproof Bronzong may force the use of shadow ball in an indeedee move slot, and protect-scouting steels like Escavalier can limit the choice sets' effectiveness. Indeedee also lacks a pivoting move which as a choice scarfer can cost momentum if predictions are made incorrectly. All in all, Indeedee doesn't seem immediately busted when weighed against the meta like many of the current NUBL mons do, and so he may also be worth testing out.

The rest of the ban-list largely strikes me as still too oppressive to include into the tier, but I would love to hear other peoples' thoughts on any of these pokemon.
 
Alright since we're apparently talking about retests now, I suppose the more discussion the better. I have posted about retests before so apologies in advance if I sound like a broken record. I guess I'll just go over my thoughts on some of the aforementioned mons. *shrugs* I was thinking the meta was starting to get stale anyways.

:Pangoro:
Yeah, this thing is still not okay. I would argue that it would actually be more broken now than it was when it was banned for the very simple reason that some of the more recent defensive pillars include mons such as Brongzong and Xatu, who are just another Knock Off victim. Sure, this things speed has gotten significantly worse in the wake of other offense threats such as Exploud, but I would just like to take a moment to point out that if you run Jolly, Kung Fu Panda still outspeeds Modest Exploud by one point. But surely with a +Speed nature, its power becomes managable. Maybe, but I only pointed that out to say it was an option. This mon could be restricted to only running Knock Off and still be a top tier breaker. If you want a more comprehensive argument, I'm sure you can dig up my old panda hate posts.

:Sigilyph:
Somebody please tell me what's changed about NU that would make the other Native American-inspired bird okay. Look, you could legitimately argue that our offensive breakers are fast and powerful enough to make this thing manageable. However, consider that the only mon we have that both outspeeds, offensively threatens, and can semi-safely switch into Sigilyph is Starmie. Of course, this assumes that Sigilyph isn't just running Energy Ball and calling it a day (same goes for Dazzling Gleam for Guzzlord), not to mention that Life Orb Thunderbolt/Ice Beam isn't a guaranteed OHKO. Even if you do manage to pressure it, Sigilyph is just going to switch out. This is the first mon that comes to my mind when I think of the benefactors of Pursuit's removal. This mon can quite literally abuse every playstyle to one extent or another, since it really only needs 2 attacking moves and then is free to run Calm Mind to abuse every bulky mon in the tier and then pick its attacks (i.e. choosing what can safely counter it), then slapping roost in the last slot. The only mon I can see that could semi-consistently check the offensive variants of Sigilyph is bulky Drapion, who can be worn down. Oh and by the way, I haven't even mentioned the Psycho Shift set that dumps on Drapion and just about everything else. The gods are looking out for the Nasca lines that are all over this thing.

:Porygon-Z:
Hey guys, let's unban the mon that's stronger, faster, and has boosting moves in comparison to Exploud! What could possibly go wrong? I don't care that this thing lacks the fire coverage or Scrappy Exploud has over it, because it doesn't need either of those things to delete the tier. What Porygon-Z lacks in coverage and Scrappy it makes up for with its access to Agility and Nasty Plot as well as better stats in every category but HP. The fact that you can also legitimately run Choice items (except Band) doesn't help. But it's gonna have a harder time finding a turn to set up! You say that as if the other offensively oriented setup sweepers don't have a hard time finding an opportunity. Porygon-Z doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it will eventually find an opportunity to rip through everything. Keep this virus out.

:Tornadus:
Honestly, I've been on board with retesting the genie for a while now. The fact of the matter is that Tornadus never really got a chance to show what it could do in an environment where the deck wasn't already stacked in its favor (i.e. rain). Yes, its offensive movepool is really really good, but there are a number of significant obstacles the mon faces. Among these problems is the Boots dilemma, since Tornadus wants Boots for longevity but also boosting items. Then there's the issue of the severe case of 4 moveslot syndrome Tornadus has, as well as the severe gap in its movepool: its lack of priority. Furthermore, Tornadus just really isn't useful defensively besides its Earthquake immunity. We were all looking forward to the challenge of creating an optimal set for Tornadus... and then it was banned before we got a chance. Definitely warrants a retest.

:Indeedee:
Okay, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this mon is worth giving a shot. However, I feel that whether or not it stays is a really close run thing. I get that Indeedee-F is basically unviable, but I think we're seriously underselling how significant a 10 point stat boost is in damage calculations. The ability to enable psychic terrain offense is an interesting proposition, and yes its coverage has gotten worse since Heatproof Bronzong mandates Shadow Ball. The thing is that it already ran that anyways, so that's not really a huge loss, especially with the general spammability of Ghost-type attacks. Specs would be a terrifying breaker and Scarf would be the second fastest scarfer in the tier after Heliolisk. A tough case, to be sure, but I think a retest is warranted given that its one of the less obviously broken mons in NUBL and who knows? Maybe it will be really good but not broken.

As for hail, yeah no, that isn't happening. Thanks for reading if you got through this post!
 
:ss/sneasel:

Seeing once considered 'bad' Ice-types shine in OU like Weavile and Arctozolt has gotten me to think about Sneasel, along with the four VR nominations in UU (still crazy to me). What really got me inspired to try out Sneasel again was when I was playing vs daniYSB a few weeks back, where he used Wide Lens Sneasel. After further experimentation and laddering I have come to the conclusion that Sneasel is not actually that bad, in fact pretty decent.

Why you should use Sneasel?

Sneasel has a unique niche in NU due to its good Speed tier and unwallable STAB combo, able to clean weaken teams or cripple early-on. Its natural Speed allows it to outpace Pokemon such as Tauros, Heliolisk, Drapion, Rotom-C and many more. When Sneasel has a free turn, or gets in on a Xatu or Mowtom, it can force really uncomfortable sequences for the opposing side. While it lacks a lot of raw OHKO power, it can usually always make progress thanks to Knock-Off and just generally strong STABS. Its priority is also really nice in some matchups, allowing it to pick off weakened many weakened Pokemon. With Inner Focus Intimidate can't drop your Attack, so it makes your sweeper potential slightly easier on ladder vs things like Arcanine or random Intimidate Pokemon.

Potential items

Sneasel @ Wide Lens
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Triple Axel
- Ice Shard
- Swords Dance

This is the set that I have personally enjoyed the most. It's better on more offense oriented teams, such as pivot spam, and is able to weaken shared checks with Ninjask like Diancie and Garbodor. Even though it's weak to hazards, the increased accuracy on Triple Axel is just so worth it. Many previously shaky matchups suddenly become way more reliable, and the overall increased sense of security works is just super amazing.

Sneasel @ Choice Band
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Triple Axel
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick/Poison Jab

I used this like back in Flygon meta (?) and it honestly yielded pretty average results. Though, I haven't used it much recently so it needs further experimentation. This set is able to threaten a lot more KOs on slightly chipped Pokemon, such as Tauros, Drapion, Bronzong etc.. but has that crippling hazard weakness and lacks the sweeping potential with SD. Still a fine choice probably but I prefer Wide Lens any day, the accuracy of Triple Axel just gives me too much anxiety.

Sneasel @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Triple Axel
- Ice Shard
- Swords Dance

This set is able to switch-in onto the field more often, not requiring much hazard removal support and allowing it to be more self-sufficient. Though, you lack the power of Choice Band, and consistency compared to Wide Lens. Still, a pretty viable option, especially for more bulky oriented teams.

Potential Partners

:ss/silvally-steel:

Silvally Steel is able to form a decent core with Sneasel, able to remove hazards with Defog and pivot in and out of bad matchups, providing Sneasel with a safe pivot. Helps in the Poison-and Fairy-type matchup.

:ss/rotom-mow:

Similarly, Rotom-C can act as a Defogger and pivot, and can help lure Dragalge, Guzzlord and Grass-types for Sneasel. It also helps the slight Mudsdale and Bronzong weakness. With Yache berry also checks Blastoise, which can set up on Sneasel.

:ss/ninjask: :ss/xatu:

When paired with Sneasel, can weaken shared checks in bulky Poison types, Steels, Talonflame, Diancie and more. Ninjask can force chip on all of them, while Xatu can (usually) switch into a plethora of their checks.

Potential Problems

Of course, Sneasel is not without its flaws. Its speed tier still leaves a lot to be desired, particularly in the Talonflame, Salazzle and Starmie matchup. While SD variants of Sneasel can usually beat Vaporeon in a lot of scenarios, if a Vaporeon is knocked beforehand it can make it quite hard for Sneasel to sweep or break. Limited switch-in opportunities, reliance on teammates and hazard weakness are also really problematic for Sneasel. Being a fake Ghost resist sucks too, since you take like a billion from any Poltergeist, so you'll have to compensate elsewhere.

Replays and ladder peak with Sneasel

Screenshot_20210912-141933_Chrome.jpg

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1415294087-tw1avnxc9w7ou8bbqldfgsch96jf511pw Tournament battle, Sneasel sweeps end game, pressures Diancie (and kills) and pressures opposing side

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1414330814-8ftidmuxf1aeumfn6qkfls06o5qjzi3pw It's able to pressure the opposing side really well despite there being an Arcanine and Sirfetch'd, Priority chipped off Braviary late game

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1414335398-9iwxh10oiiw1yuop1gi4cowz5nqnztjpw Swords Dance Sneasel is able to 1v1 a healthy Vaporeon and win late game

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1414387551-qg6equabi7j1yudnn8zsvmboebt78dvpw is able to similarly break through a Vaporeon with SD and weakens the steel (s/o Pokeslice for ice fang gfisk)

Conclusion

Overall I believe Sneasel to be an okay Pokemon in the current metagame. It has a really spammable STAB combination that can help break bulkier walls for its teammates, while also having a good speed tier. It's able to do well on more offense oriented teams, and has good offensive synergy with many top-tier Pokemon. Try it out when you can, you might be disappointed but I was too a couple months back! And look where it ended up now. There are a few other prominent players using Sneasel on ladder but I don't know if they'd like if I revealed their team, so just take my word on it. Thanks for reading this long post.
 
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poh

<?>
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October tier shifts are here!
NU Stage 8

Gains



and rose from PU and are now NU by usage

Losses


We got some really cool additions to the tier but also lost an important element of the tier in Celebi.
First thoughts so far; Snorlax might seem less overpowered than last time (a year ago!) but i'm afraid the tier still doesn't have adequate counterplay. Regidrago is kinda weird to build with but has insane on paper values like 2hkoing any resist, ofcourse it can't touch fairies but that doesn't mean it can't be too much in the long run aka forcing a fairy type on every team. Doublade looks to be the 'healthiest' of the bunch. Another steel type option, great defensive value, bulky wincon, another idpress zong counter etc. This one will most likely stay here.

Council will probably do a vote on these new drops but we need your input! So test these mons out as much as possible to give everyone and yourself a clear idea of the mon. Are they broken? Are they healthy?

The drops will shake up the meta for sure but so will the departure of Celebi. So yeah let us know what you think of the shifts :toast:
 
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Aawin

whole lotta vibes in the city
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keep in mind the following are just my opinions

:doublade:
Probably the most balanced of the 3 drops we've received in this shift. Solid 150 base defense allows this to blanket nearly every physical attacker, with a couple exceptions of mons like Leek Fetch'd. Solid answer to IronPress Zonger just due to typing, and can probably (?) be an answer for CurseLax if it runs Sacred Sword. Couple sets I could see are SD + CC with dual STAB (probably going to be the most common set on ladder / tours). I can also see ToxTect being really annoying for those mons that wanna switch into this mon, specifically looking at Mudsdale (should be able to stomach anything from SD). Glaring weakness to nearly every Special Attacker puts Doublade in an odd spot. Not really able to be a check to Goodra or Drago (which I cover in the next section of this post). Overall I think Doublade is a really welcome addition to the tier, and I know some people have already built with it in preparation for when it dropped (Corthius).

:regidrago:
This mon is probably the most polarizing of the bunch. Regidrago is going to force a ton of usage of Diancie and Sylveon (as if those weren't already used on every team), to the point where if you don't have a Fairy-type to switch into Regi, your team will be eaten alive. This mon can push back every Steel not named Rest Bronzong since they lack reliable recovery and are incredibly prone to being chipped. AV Copper for example isn't going to be able to blanket both Regi and a partner that also applies ample pressure to Steels, such as Exploud. Specs sets seem the most appealing at the moment, with those running triple STAB with Dragon Energy/Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse. The 4th option legit sucks ass, as you're limited to Ancient Power (low BP), Hyper Beam (Sucks, but high BP and can chunk Fairy-types?), and Explosion (Bye). I think Dragon Dance sets have the most potential of the possible sets Regi can run since it has better options for coverage. Namely Hammer Arm / Fire Fang for Steels, Crunch for Heatproof Bronzong, and Explosion (again). Elias PSY compared this mon to Tyrantrum, which I can definitely see the comparison to, as that mon also rips holes if you don't have a Mudsdale or other defensive ground. I think this mon is ban-worthy, but we'll see how it shakes out.

:snorlax:
I've already said a ton about this mon, linking Rabia's video which has my thoughts on Snorlax. Ban this fucking thing.

Super excited for how shifts pan out for the tier, really looking forward to building!
 
:torracat: OCTOBER SHIFTS! BOOGIE-WOOGIE IN THE BAR! :torracat:

Dragons, swords and a fat, lazy, potentially drunk bear.


:ss/regidrago:

I think Regidrago should be quickbanned thanks to how much of a polarizing force it can be with its potent Dragon STAB. It forces the usage of a few Fairy-types on every team in a way that is, in my opinion, much more comparable to how Dracovish mandated the usage of limited Water Absorbers such as Seismitoad and Gastrodon in OU than to how our current breakers like Tyrantrum demand specific defensive counterplay - the dinosaur mentioned, for example, has plenty of different checks such as Mudsdale, Palossand, Bronzong, Vileplume, Choice Scarf Rotom-Mow.
Steel-types are not to be considered when taking checking Regidrago into consideration, just take a look at these little calculations:
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Escavalier: 160-189 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Bronzong: 164-193 (48.5 - 57.1%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Copperajah: 183-216 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Escavalier: 138-163 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Bronzong: 142-168 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragon's Maw Regidrago Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 92 SpD Assault Vest Copperajah: 159-188 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- 78.1% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

And I'm not even taking physical variants into account!
Restricting teambuilders into picking, realistically, from 2 to 3 viable Fairy-type Pokémon to mandatorily use in every team to try to prevent not getting immediately 6 - 0ed just shows how ridiculously oppressive our Regi friend is.

:ss/snorlax:

I personally think Snorlax, at first glance, seems decently manageable. With checks such as DiamondPress Diancie, SD Doublade, Roar Mudsdale, Taunt Talonflame, Weezing, SD Escavalier, Growth Vileplume, Sirfetch'd and even SD Rhydon, this lazy Pokémon appears to be a fine addition to the tier, in my opinion. I can't really tell much else, I haven't particularly used Snorlax much yet, but have faced it a few times and, between Taunt Talons and SD Doublades, the poor one really couldn't do a thing...

:ss/doublade:

I also think Doublade appears to be balanced at first. Great Ghost- and Fighting-type coverage coupled with Swords Dance makes it a very potent offensive threat, while an immensely valuable Steel/Ghost typing allows it to work as a great defensive glue for teams, naturally checking DefensePressers such as Diancie and Bronzong and etc.. Access to utility moves in Toxic (100% accurate thanks to No Guard!) and Magnet Rise also seem pretty fun to explore, so I'm quite excited to keep on using this Pokémon!
 
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:ss/Regidrago:

I'm still trying to decide how I feel about this thing. I totally understand people's reaction to it and thinking it should be quickbanned, its able to do the same damage that Specs Exploud does with Boomburst to Bronzong with a Choice Scarf Dragon Energy.... That being said, I really want people to take their time in making a judgment on this mon.

Here are the key issues that I've found with Special Regidrago so far:
  1. If the opponent has a fairy-type, Regidrago itself has no way to make meaningful progress on the fairy itself. As long as your opponent keeps the fairy above like 25%, your Drago can't really do anything.​
  2. Preserving Dragon Energy base power cuts into your opportunities of getting in. The other dragon's don't have this worry so they can come in on resisted attacks, burns, or just weak moves.​
  3. Entry hazard chip is not negligible to the base power of Dragon Energy. Taking a round or 2 of rocks really sucks.​

Obviously having a fairy-type makes the matchup with Drago alot easier, but this made me want to see what the matchup is like against a non-fairy team. Does Regidrago just absolutely demolish those teams? It's hard to find games on ladder where people aren't using a fairy right now, which I get is a huge point in favor of banning Drago, so I went ahead and used a team that I thought would have an OK Drago matchup that does not have a fairy on it.

Replays of Drago vs No Fairy
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427732275
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427715833 : Here you can see that a scarf drago while threatening, could probably have been replaced with a different breaker and done pretty much the same thing.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427723991-0lgup7mn0rnwflul7xborzeizdoyeekpw : Here the Drago was specs. This was a tough matchup because I dont have hazard control for webs. Still, although the Drago pressured my team well, it didnt really run through me. And by the time it claimed Copper, we both had severely weakened teams.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427741532-vfx78ycra1qpypu8n06gtaukof349e7pw : Another game against a scarf Drago. I was able to get rocks up which started to chip away at Dragon Energy BP and Copper is able to take it quite well. Honestly, I think I would have been fine had I not lost to the Immunity Snorlax.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427678043 : My opponent here didn't have a fairy-type, but because I wanted to preserve Dragon Energy BP, I hardly got it in.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1428065517-v9pj3rqo5itb8jf1jichwconhtbisjmpw : I wasn't running a fairy, and loaded up against a Specs Drago. Again, I had to play carefully around it, which was difficult because of the Blastoise, but it didnt run through me.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1428099030
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1428102443


Now here are some replays where the opponent has a fairy-type....
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427712422 : In this one turtdog has a Comfey which deters me from ever even trying to use my regidrago; And turt is good so he knows he needs to keep his fairy alive and won't sack it.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427684598 : Even though the fairy in this game was a Bootless ribombee and I had rocks up, I still wasn't able to really utilize Regidrago. Even when up against a fairy with very little longevity, my Drago was pretty much locked out of the game.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427650678-jxn5lc7ey5mgf01kfcu5jsuxv8vo3ycpw : this was long one because neither of us could really use our Drago to make progress on the opponents team. By the team id finally killed the opposing Fairy type, the game was already pretty much over.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427771016
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1428122382


I'm totally willing to concede that my teams might be suboptimal, but I haven't yet come across someone using a Regidrago build that absolutely wrecks house. From what I saw in testing this evening, Regidrago didn't rip right through my non-fairy team.

I know this is a mostly anti-ban post, but I am still not sure about the mon, it is definitely really scary to face. I just want to contribute something to the conversation that I haven't really seen.

I haven't even gotten to physical sets yet, but wanted to get this discussion point out before council does stuff on Sunday.

EDIT: Adding more replays
 
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Finchinator

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The SS NU council is currently discussing Snorlax and Regidrago internally, for what it's worth. This is far from a promise to vote or ban either Pokemon, but we are aware of their presences and will act how we feel most appropriate. Any posts, such as the above, shedding insight on their place in the metagame will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and I hope everyone enjoys trying out the new toys!
 
:ss/regidrago:
Regidrago is broken. I do not particularly mind being forced to use a Fairy in every team, since Fairy is a good typing in general. I also can empathise with skierdude101's take that Regidrago does almost nothing when the opponent's Fairy is still alive. However, I feel that this argument is pretty much similar to the anti-ban argument made during the Cresselia suspect, where Cresselia remains dormant until the opposing Dark-types get eliminated. Game play has been reduced to whoever is able to overwhelm the opposing Fairy first, as well as making many predictable double-switches since instinct dictates that we send in our Fairy to tank an incoming Dragon Energy. The final straw though, in my opinion, is its Speed. Base 80 Speed is pretty fast for NU standards as it outspeeds relevant threats such as Blastoise, Decidueye, Tyrantrum, etc. With a Choice Scarf, faster threats like Talonflame and Inteleon are not safe either. Choice Specs needs no introduction, it 2HKO almost everything. I have yet to try out Dragon Dance sets, though I can see the huge potential. I understand that SCL is still ongoing, so perhaps a quickban this Sunday is the right way to go.

:ss/snorlax: :ss/doublade:
Have yet to use the other 2 drops, though from my experience so far Snorlax is so bulky, it just doesn't die. Set up Curse once and it becomes a menace to take down. I am not sure if Snorlax warrants a quickban, but at the same time I don't think spamming Leek Sirfetch'd or Banded Close Combats is healthy either. Snorlax also has all the tools it needs, having great coverage in Darkest Lariat and Heat Crash, as well as its famous RestTalk set for longevity.

Finally, I feel that NU power levels have been increasing over time, so why not make use of all the wallbreakers available to demolish the tier? Equipping Bands and Specs on random Dragon-Fairy-Steel and FWG cores, I have had a lot of fun playing in the past 24 hours. Here is the team with some replays (1 2 3) for your entertainment, and enjoy the new meta!
 
:ss/snorlax:

I personally disagree with the sentiment that Snorlax is broken and I think there needs to be more time to properly evaluate Snorlax. I honestly do not see how it is something quick ban worthy and I think all team archetypes are able to deal with it well. CurseSets are easy to pressure imo and I find that my teams have a lot of natural counterplay to it (diancie, dtail guzz, sd escav/doublade, fetchd, growth plume and more) and I haven't really had a battle where it ever swept or had the opportunity to. Even just disregarding those checks, just generally not giving it setup opportunities or applying pressure with hazards work well too. I think there can be a lot of meta exploration with Snorlax and I can see lesser used Pokemon like subleech comfey/scrafty/weezing or even jellicent picking up more usage. Its movepool is large but each move makes it more wallable by something else, if that makes sense. You might be able to catch a surprise KO but not much beyond that. I've only came across weird AV and a couple banded sets on ladder but they haven't really done anything in any of the games I played. If Snorlax does end up being unhealthy, I think quickbanning it is too early of a move.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427593015 - Here the Snorlax was constantly pressured out and was 3HKO'd by a Sylveon.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427580062 - Snorlax was not able to setup and was pressured heavily by Sylveon even without hazards and could've been dealt with by many of my team (np mowtom, omastar, fetchd etc..)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1427963000-nl3wlfek2kswcaf0s2t9013zkbphlodpw - Here my Snorlax had very little opportunity to setup and was mainly used as a sponge for a few hits, nothing really broken about it here.

There are a few more replays I'd share if it weren't for the fact that I didn't save them. I'll try to collect more replays over the course of today, and I hope people will have a more open minded approach to Snorlax in the tier.
 
:ss/regidrago:
Regidrago is broken. I do not particularly mind being forced to use a Fairy in every team, since Fairy is a good typing in general. I also can empathise with skierdude101's take that Regidrago does almost nothing when the opponent's Fairy is still alive. However, I feel that this argument is pretty much similar to the anti-ban argument made during the Cresselia suspect, where Cresselia remains dormant until the opposing Dark-types get eliminated. Game play has been reduced to whoever is able to overwhelm the opposing Fairy first, as well as making many predictable double-switches since instinct dictates that we send in our Fairy to tank an incoming Dragon Energy. The final straw though, in my opinion, is its Speed. Base 80 Speed is pretty fast for NU standards as it outspeeds relevant threats such as Blastoise, Decidueye, Tyrantrum, etc. With a Choice Scarf, faster threats like Talonflame and Inteleon are not safe either. Choice Specs needs no introduction, it 2HKO almost everything. I have yet to try out Dragon Dance sets, though I can see the huge potential. I understand that SCL is still ongoing, so perhaps a quickban this Sunday is the right way to go.

Just want to respond to a couple points;
Cress wasn't really stopped by Dark-types in general; moonblast let it hit them hard enough and Knock's inconsistent damage (as its only 65BP after item is gone) wasn't enough to really threaten Cress. The exception to this was SpDef SD Drapion, and only specifically spdef vairants.

I do agree that extra speed goes a long way for Regidrago, definitely an important part of it.

From the gameplay Ive shown in replays and also from the 3 that I saw from you, by the time the fairy was overwhelmed, the game was already over. Replacing Regidrago for something like Goodra would have had a very similar effect on the game, except you wouldn't have needed to constantly double on the Diancie coming in. In the game against sand, which had no Dragon resist, again all Regidrago did was tank a LO EQ from Sandslash and kill back; there's plenty of other mons that could do that.

If anyone has replays of games where Regidrago completely tears it up (i.e. no-fairy, steel only, or HO) or has a method that takes out a fairy early enough in the game to allow Regidrago to rip through the team, please please share!
 
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