Metagame NP: NU Stage 9 - Fat Bottomed Girls [Snorlax unbanned -- see post 18]

Status
Not open for further replies.

shiloh

is a Super Moderatoris a member of the Battle Simulator Staffis a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Super Moderator

:sm/snorlax:
1633447347244.png


Even though it was just banned, Snorlax is being dropped down and retested almost immediately back into the NU tier. Similar to how we dealt with Glastrier earlier on in the year, we found that process worked great with how we wanted to deal with new drops the council was unsure on, especially when important tours are going on.

Onto Snorlax itself. In it, we see a Pokemon that really only has one main set that will see use on a majority of teams that it is on: Curse. CurseLax is one of the bulkiest sweepers that the tier has had to face and is able to quickly grab boosts to become almost impossible to KO, with good coverage in Darkest Lariat and Heat Crash or even Sleep Talk to remove the passive turns Rest creates. In combination with a good ability in Thick Fat, it makes up for its mono-Normal typing, giving it resistances to Fire and Ice. This not only helps it in its efforts to sweep or set up, but it also lets Snorlax better check any Fire- and Ice-types and Pokemon that run that coverage.

However, Snorlax is not without its flaws. Before setting up, Snorlax is very vulnerable to physical attacks as its natural Defense is not that great. This means that it is not able to set up on quite a few Pokemon, and it has to be careful when trying to switch into them; it's nearly useless when faced with certain foes like Diancie and Escavalier, among others. Snorlax is also more susceptible to hazards than a lot of other Pokemon, since it cannot afford to drop Leftovers for Heavy-Duty Boots. This means if any entry hazard is on the field, Snorlax's longevity and ability to find setup opportunities are severely cut into. Its typing also does it no favors, as mono Normal only provides it with a Ghost immunity, and even though it has Thick Fat, there are not a ton of Ice- or Fire-type attackers in NU.

While Snorlax can run other sets like Choice Band, overall most of the reasons to keep or ban it will come down to the Curse set, which is why that was the main focus of the OP and what we imagine will be the main focus of the thread. That is not to say Choice Band is a bad set but mainly that it does not add a lot to Snorlax's viability or reasons that it would be considered banworthy. Snorlax also provides the tier with an additional ghost resist, and a more defensively inclined one as well. This helps it add more to the tier than most traditional breakers, and helps it have a niche due to the numerous Ghost-type attackers in NU.

:snorlax: :snorlax: :snorlax:

Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice. **It is now 79 GXE**
GXE​
minimum games​
79​
50​
79.2​
49​
79.4​
48​
79.6​
47​
79.8​
46​
80​
45​
80.2​
44​
80.4​
43​
80.6​
42​
80.8​
41​
81​
40​
81.2​
39​
81.4​
38​
81.6​
37​
81.8​
36​
82​
35​
82.2​
34​
82.4​
33​
82.6​
32​
82.8​
31​
83​
30​

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NULX. For example, I might signup with the ladder account NULX shiloh
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.​
  • We will be using the regular NU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.​
  • The aspects being tested, Snorlax, will be allowed on the ladder.​
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.​
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.​
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until October 19th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.​
 

Togkey

PLOOM DOOM
is a Tiering Contributor
Guess I'll be the first to say something..

Obviously :Regidrago: had significantly more immediate power, leading to a much more knee-jerk reaction to its introduction into the tier. Snorlax tends to run sets that prosper in the late-game due to its immense bulk and ability to set-up, and as the metas become very offensive right when it gets new Pokémon, Snorlax wasn't able to shine as much as its offensive Dragon friend. This offensive meta will not stay around forever, right before every shift the metas are at their bulkiest, as we learn how to manage offensive threats and force them into long games where their longevity comes to bite them.

Now Snorlax isn't going to be coming in and immediately destroying everything in its path (although the Choice Band set can pick up some surprise KO's), but the restrictions this Pokemon puts on your team on paper are very heavy; because you're not KOing this thing with raw attacks once it gets one or two Curse boosts. Haze, Choice-Tricking, or phasing are pretty much the only ways of consistently dealing with Snorlax (sound familiar :cresselia: ?) and although Fighting-types like :sirfetch or :toxicroak: can put it on the back foot, they'll still lose the 1v1 if they come in as Snorlax Curses. Haze is less than ideal in every situation outside of Snorlax, and phasing moves are in a similar boat. Haze and phasing moves also have very limited distribution and the Pokémon who do learn those moves do not appreciate having to drop an otherwise better move in its place. Now obviously every Pokémon has its checks (:zygarde: vs :avalugg:) but being forced to use Doublade or Growth Vileplume on every team just so you don't have to run Haze/Roar on every team is extremely restricting. This is all on paper, and pressuring Snorlax before it gets going usually tends to make it not accomplish much of anything, so its really hard to tell if this thing will actually be a problem on the battlefield.

When discussing the ideal CurseLax moveset with friends, we decided STABless with Heavy Slam + Darkest Lariat would allow you to beat the widest range of checks, most notably Body Press :Diancie: who completely checks you otherwise, and IronPress :Bronzong: / Ghost types (:doublade: :decidueye: :dhelmise: :golurk:).

While getting reqs I rarely came across any Snorlax nor did I use it myself, so much like Glastrier, I have no clue what to vote for lol. As it stands right now, I think Snorlax is broken on paper, and also doesn't add anything positive to the tier outside of something that could allow worse players to beat better players off of matchup alone.
 
:snorlax: I haven't been too convinced Snorlax shows signs of brokenness or unhealthyness. A lot of it centers around the on paper elements but I feel it's more different than in practice. A large portion of the on paper analysis of Snorlax is considering the best case scenario for the Snorlax user. This post will be a little cluttered but whatever i guess lol

Regarding checks and counterplay to Snorlax on a team, I haven't really had any trouble with Lax in terms of building. All of my teams have some sort of Snorlax protection or counterplay and I don’t really consider any of them niche, nor do I think its checks are scarce. Most of my teams pre lax already carried things like Diancie, Growth Plume, SD escav (now doublade), Dtail Guzz, Taunt tflame, or just generally non-lax friendly teams like Exploud/fighting types + pivots etc.. I think there's tons of room for cool techs or more niche mons to appear. Stuff like Encore Salazzle and Scrafty come to mind. This is all on paper too, and in play it's not that hard to limit its setup or switch in opportunities, especially with pivots and hazards. You could obviously run banded and nuke some of these checks but I personally don't think it's as consistent or as good as CurseLax sets. They are still really slow, and beyond possibly getting a lure kill i don't see it being too big of a threat.

I don’t really find it hard to outlast or pressure out a Snorlax that is trying to boost up. A lot of times I can just go hard into my check and force it out, preventing it from boosting and forcing it to take more hazard damage when it comes in again. A lot of Snorlax checks are also self-sufficient or can easily be healed via Wish Passers, or brought in via the numerous pivots. I also think a lot of people would use Snorlax as a blanket check or switch in to a lot of mons. CurseLax sets are intended to be saved for later on and whatnot but surely it won't stay in a Pokeball the whole game? Id imagine people would use it to soak up some hits, and the whole aspect of having to kill the opposing side's counters, trying to reduce gradual chip damage, and finding the right opportunity to setup seems honestly not that easy.

I don't really take into account impact on the tier too much when deciding my suspect vote or not. As in like, if it really contributes much to the tier. IMO if it's not broken or unhealthy it doesn't really matter what the mon does yknow? And i actually do think Snorlax could contribute to a healthy tier. It adds another check to many dangerous Special Attackers and can act as a ghost immunity for some teams. It also is like an okayish anti-cheese option, able to sometimes 1v1 CM psychics and handle Blastoise.

Of course it's only been like a few days and my opinion could totally change. Though I do think Snorlax is overhyped/rated and I think there's a lot of potential meta exploration with Snorlax.
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Pre-Contributor
I haven't had a chance to really play around with Lax much yet, but I have tried the other drop and wanted to talk about Doublade for a second

:ss/doublade:

PROS
  • It's a fantastic physical wall, with around 500 defense after the eviolite boost, it walls offensive Pokemon like Toxicroak, Tauros, Braviary, Passimian, Tyrantrum, SNORLAX etc
  • Great typing lets it switch into meta warping mons Bronzong and Diancie consistently, among others mentioned above
  • Can boost through some checks after some chip with SD, such as almost breaking Muds for Drap or Croak in the back.
  • Sneak is cool, especially on a strong slower mon
CONS
  • It can't fulfill the role of a Steel because of its terrible SpDef which makes it hard to fit on teams
  • That's it, that's the con because that's a BIG one
I really expected Doublade to be better. Being a consistent Zong answer and a way to flip off physical attackers combined with some cool SD or Magnet Rise sets made me think that this mon would be A tier at minimum, slotting on teams who needed a Steel and were weaker to Zong. After building and playing with it, I realized that as great as those qualities were, it can't just fit in as a Steel. With its low SpDef, you're taking 35 from random Special Attacks, and don't even get me started on something like Exploud, which can just 2HKO Doublade for no reason at all with RESISTED Boomburst. Because of this, you really can't use Doublade without a secondary special wall that fills in for where Doublade falls apart, basically a Diancie + Doublade core, and it's hard to fit on a team. I will say, in the current Lax suspect, this mon has a lot more value, so give it a shot if you haven't. Just remember its huge flaws and build accordingly.

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak

Diancie @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 156 SpD / 100 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Body Press
- Diamond Storm
- Moonblast
 

roxiee

Oh wow, I'm a princess.
is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
:ss/snorlax:

I've also not been impressed with the brokenness of Snorlax in actual play and teambuilding. Choice Band and Curse + Darkest Lariat sets seem like the most consistent sets and on paper, a fat Ghost immunity that's able to boost its Defense does seem pretty terrifying on paper. Looking at the previous metagame, I find that some of our specially defensive users like Copperajah, Vaporeon, and Guzzlord all have their flaws in dealing with things the metagame adapted to: Copperajah has 5 slot syndrome and its lack of speed + adverse contact effects against Talonflame and Growth Vileplume, Vaporeon having to deal with numerous anti-Water Pokemon like Heliolisk and Toxicroak, and Guzzlord having Speed wars against Diancie and the coverage options special Pokemon have (Dazzling Gleam, Ice Beam, Focus Blast from Xatu, Blastoise, Toxicroak). I have also been facing fatter teams with Calm Mind users: Uxie (Draining Kiss) + Sylveon (Snore) which caused the metagame to run Drapion even more. Snorlax provides a defensive backbone in checking numerous special attackers in the tier like Rotom-C, Exploud, and Goodra.

If Snorlax had the same speed of let's say Sirfetch'd I'd be on the BAN side but poor speed makes it more manageable like any other defensive Pokemon. Snorlax has some specific checks like Quagsire, Doublade, and Sirfetch'd and they're more viable than niche options people have been using like Galarian Stunfisk for a Rotom-C and Lanturn for Volt immunity + Blastoise check. However, these checks aren't needed to be glued on all of your teams, in fact, teams should be able to naturally beat Snorlax IMO. Here is a list of checks and counters to Snorlax: Liquidation Araquanid, Offensive Arcanine, Focus Blast Blastoise (hits Guzzlord and Copperajah aswell), CC or Banded Braviary, Bronzong, Superpower Copperajah, BP Diancie, Doublade, Escavalier, FB Exploud, Glastrier, Golurk, FB Heliolisk, BP or Roar Mudsdale, Passimian, Trick Rotom-C, Encore Salazzle, Sirfetch'd, Trick Starmie, SD / Taunt Talonflame, Taurous, Toxicroak, Tyrantrum, Roar Vaporeon, Growth Sap Vileplume, BP Duraludon/Goodra, Trick Palossand, Quagsire, BP Regirock, Taunt users, and so on. I think the current metagame can handle Snorlax defensively and offensively especially with our variety of physical attackers like Drapion and Silvally-Ground and our defensive options in Copperajah, Doublade, Escavalier, Quagsire, and so on, which all have a place in the metagame. I think its a fine adaptation for the tier
 
:ss/snorlax:

I've also not been impressed with the brokenness of Snorlax in actual play and teambuilding. Choice Band and Curse + Darkest Lariat sets seem like the most consistent sets and on paper, a fat Ghost immunity that's able to boost its Defense does seem pretty terrifying on paper. Looking at the previous metagame, I find that some of our specially defensive users like Copperajah, Vaporeon, and Guzzlord all have their flaws in dealing with things the metagame adapted to: Copperajah has 5 slot syndrome and its lack of speed + adverse contact effects against Talonflame and Growth Vileplume, Vaporeon having to deal with numerous anti-Water Pokemon like Heliolisk and Toxicroak, and Guzzlord having Speed wars against Diancie and the coverage options special Pokemon have (Dazzling Gleam, Ice Beam, Focus Blast from Xatu, Blastoise, Toxicroak). I have also been facing fatter teams with Calm Mind users: Uxie (Draining Kiss) + Sylveon (Snore) which caused the metagame to run Drapion even more. Snorlax provides a defensive backbone in checking numerous special attackers in the tier like Rotom-C, Exploud, and Goodra.

If Snorlax had the same speed of let's say Sirfetch'd I'd be on the BAN side but poor speed makes it more manageable like any other defensive Pokemon. Snorlax has some specific checks like Quagsire, Doublade, and Sirfetch'd and they're more viable than niche options people have been using like Galarian Stunfisk for a Rotom-C and Lanturn for Volt immunity + Blastoise check. However, these checks aren't needed to be glued on all of your teams, in fact, teams should be able to naturally beat Snorlax IMO. Here is a list of checks and counters to Snorlax: Liquidation Araquanid, Offensive Arcanine, Focus Blast Blastoise (hits Guzzlord and Copperajah aswell), CC or Banded Braviary, Bronzong, Superpower Copperajah, BP Diancie, Doublade, Escavalier, FB Exploud, Glastrier, Golurk, FB Heliolisk, BP or Roar Mudsdale, Passimian, Trick Rotom-C, Encore Salazzle, Sirfetch'd, Trick Starmie, SD / Taunt Talonflame, Taurous, Toxicroak, Tyrantrum, Roar Vaporeon, Growth Sap Vileplume, BP Duraludon/Goodra, Trick Palossand, Quagsire, BP Regirock, Taunt users, and so on. I think the current metagame can handle Snorlax defensively and offensively especially with our variety of physical attackers like Drapion and Silvally-Ground and our defensive options in Copperajah, Doublade, Escavalier, Quagsire, and so on, which all have a place in the metagame. I think its a fine adaptation for the tier
Here's some more analysis on the checks you've listed. Some of them are just not checks to curselax.

Liquadation Araquanid: You're pretty much fishing for drops, lax is pretty comfy to just keep clicking curse
252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. +1 12 HP / 244 Def Snorlax: 142-168 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Offensive Arcanine: Again, not really doing enough
252 Atk Arcanine Close Combat vs. +1 12 HP / 244 Def Snorlax: 162-192 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- 72.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Focus Blast Blastoise: I guess you get it down to 30%, 70% of the time?
+2 252+ SpA Blastoise Focus Blast vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 290-342 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Blastoise: 148-175 (49.4 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

CC Braviary: This one might work, gonna be cutting it really tight tho
252 Atk Braviary Close Combat vs. +1 12 HP / 244 Def Snorlax: 176-208 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Bronzong: Darkest Lariat.....

Superpower Copperajah: Cuz of the attack drop, youre gonna get cursed up on.
252+ Atk Copperajah Superpower vs. +1 12 HP / 244 Def Snorlax: 200-236 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Copperajah Superpower vs. +2 12 HP / 244 Def Snorlax: 102-120 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

FB Heliolisk: Not really a check, might be able to pick of a sleeping one? (landing 2 fb is 50/50)
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 250-295 (94.3 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 234-276 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

BP Muds: Does not check, lax can just curse up to +6 to not trigger stamina

SD Talon: Talon too weak, pretty much just hoping for a burn
+4 0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. +3 12 HP / 244 Def Snorlax: 135-160 (29 - 34.4%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 0 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 248 HP / 52 Def Talonflame: 306-361 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Trick Palossand: This a bit too out there

BP Regirock: BP Avalugg...
FB Exploud: Boomburst actually also checks it, but your using your breaker as the check to opponent wincon? Probably gonna struggle keeping this healthy enough to stop Curse Lax

Golurk: You better have something afterwards to pick off the last 25%. Not really a check but good pressure.
252+ Atk Choice Band Golurk Earthquake vs. +1 12 HP / 244 Def Snorlax: 181-214 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Trick Rotom-C: This is okay check, not really reliable enough as the only method on a team though.

Encore Lazzle: Pretty dangerous to come in

Trick Starmie: Super niche, but I actually like the set so it works i guess.

Tauros: Another frail offensive check

BP Goodra: Pretty niche, but could work, would be tight.
+6 252+ Def Goodra Body Press vs. +4 12 HP / 244 Def Snorlax: 178-210 (38.3 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

BP Diancie: Fair enough; still needs to stay healthy and not get awful Dstorm luck

Doublade: Forced to run SD or Sacred Sword (which are good anyways). Lacks recovery so it can get chipped, but pretty solid check

Escavalier: Pretty decent check

Glastrier: Cool check, hadn't thought of this one actually

Roar Muds: Works as long as you have something else that can actually deal with it

Passimian: Again, these offensive checks run a big risk, cuz coming in hard on a Bslam is quite punishing and could make it so you can't come in again a 2nd time to check.

Sirfetch'd: Duh

SD+Taunt Talonflame: Should work, Para chance might ruin your day.

Toxicroak: Able to dish out big damage without and SD. Drain punch is also really juicy.

Tyrantrum: Not frail enough to care too much about taking switchin damage.

Roar Vaporeon: Huge opportunity cost, but same thing as Muds, you'll need something else to stop it in the end.

Growth Sap Vileplume: Yep

BP Duraludon: ,
Quagsire: I think you have to run curse? otherwise it becomes a stalemate and idk how the PP goes down.



There's a pretty decent sized list of checks, but it is pretty important to play conservatively with your checks to make sure you don't ever let yourself get too weakened.
 

roxiee

Oh wow, I'm a princess.
is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
The list of checks were just random stuff that helps with curse or band @skierdude101#4345 , I prob could’ve organized tho. Most defensive pokemon that it’s able to outspeed normally uses some sort of speed (like speed on copperajah re: superpower). Blastoise isn’t obviously touching Snorlax without any boosts and it’s not touching most defensive Pokemon without any boosts, for example Copperajah, Guzzlord, and Vaporeon, it’s going to need to Shell Smash but +4 Focus Blast does a decent amount of damage over Ice Beam/Surf so it’s not completely out of the window. Trick Palossand has had its use and meri berry used it so it’s not something brand new (Scarf/Specs) since Vapo/Guzz will normally try coming in. Snorlax loves to setup on more passive Pokemon like Vaporeon but it doesn’t get free nonstop setup opportunities against other slower Pokemon like Copperajah, Araquanid, and Bronzong because they could run Superpower, Liquidation, and Trick/BP, respectively. Pairing a Snorlax-weak check like Vaporeon with Doublade (which appreciates Vaporeon’s Wish to stay healthy and check Snorlax) feels like a natural aspect of building.
 
While I won't actually be able to vote on this suspect bc college tests have impeccable timing, I figure another opinion can't hurt while I'm sitting bored to tears in Econ. In particular, I wanted to talk about a few things that I don't see when I'm reading through or participating in a conversation about Snorlax. It seems to me that whenever people discuss Snorlax, there are 2 assumptions that they make: 1) Snorlax does not warrant any specialized support and 2) Curselax must get a curse up before it can accomplish anything meaningful offensively or defensively.

Snorlax and Specialized Support
Make no mistake, I am not accusing people of suggesting pairing Snorlax with unviable mons nor am I saying that Snorlax requires the use of such unorthodox options. Rather, it seems to me that people always talk about Snorlax on established structures with established mons and established sets. Again, not to say that this is wrong, especially since there is effectively a required checklist in NU teambuilding rn, but I feel that especially when discussing sets, there are small changes that can make Snorlax exponentially more effective. For instance, if you're running CB Lax on your offensive build, why not try fitting on some paralysis support? Suddenly you outspeed everything up to base 95 (assuming your running 252spe), and many of the staple mons on offensive structures like Xatu have that option to just slap on Thunder Wave, which has plenty more use besides supporting Snorlax. What if you tried Snorlax with Sticky Web support? What if's may be just that, but my point is simply that Snorlax is brand new in NU and it's just using the sets that already existed on NU cores that already existed. Basically, I think talking about Snorlax as if the tier outside of it is just the same as it was last month -Celebi +Doublade, you're seriously underselling the potential issue Snorlax would become given a little bit of time to perfect its use and supporting cast.

The Issue of Curselax
Now we get into the actual meat and potatoes of this post. Honestly I hate this set already, and again it has yet to be perfected within the tier. Honestly, I'm convinced I'm cursed (*innocent face*) to face this thing no matter where I go, I couldn't even escape by playing some UU and proceeded to lose bc it won a coinflip to live. *sighs* Anyways, I just wanted to put a few things out there about this set. Everything I hear about how to beat Curselax boils down to a) out-offensing it or b) running one of Growth Vileplume, SD Doublade, (maybe insert Diancie in there if you feel like it) or a gimmick tech move. Y'know some of this kinda sounds familiar... where have I heard it before... oh that's right Cresselia back in the hail meta (sorry roxiee had to have this bc it honestly kinda does). Unfortunately, things arent that simple as unlike Cresselia, Curselax does not need to start boosting to cause problems offensively. Even unboosted, 110 base atk is respectable, and it brings me to the offensive counterplay to this mon. Please tell me what stops Curselax from simply clicking Body Slam to hit the majority of opposing offensive switchins. "I mean you could but it wont do any super significant damage!" Well guess what, it doesn't have to, its still chip on generally frail mons and more importantly, Body Slam has the same chance to paralyze as Scald (supposedly) does to burn. Suddenly your offensive checks are exponentially easier to deal with and have a shot to just be haxxed out of the game, or they're slow enough that they can't switch into Snorlax a second time. Additionally, at worst you have an excellent check to literally every special attacker in the tier without Focus Blast, which only works 70% of the time anyways. Like seriously, Snorlax is capable of eating 2 Exploud Boombursts, not that you should, but if the worst comes to pass, hey, now you know. I think too many people view the Snorlax suspect as testing its ability to squash everything, when in reality how hard it is take down to should be considered just as much. I'm sorry but hoping for a Sirfetch'd crit CC or winning multiple coinflips with Diancie (who, lets be honest, isn't that hard to stall out of Diamond Storms) doesn't count as consistent counterplay. This effectively leaves the aforementioned SD Doublade, Growth Vileplume, and I'll throw Quag in there just bc I'm a filthy stall player. These are all pretty hard stops to Curselax, but there are asterisks to each. Doublade must stay in really good shape unless you're running Sacred Sword, which is pitifully weak against anything but Snorlax and it isn't exactly hard to chip Doublade as it has no recovery of its own without Wish support, which gives Snorlax 1 or 2 free Curses. Vileplume is a lot easier to exploit than a lot of other common mons thanks to its lack of coverage for Steels and its crippling weaknesses on the special side as well as the ability to simply overwhelm it with multiple physical attackers. As for Quag, as Catalisador would say, sorry Cheeto Tail but you just get poisoned and are specific to stall, whose viability isn't the greatest atm ;-;.

I've had enough time to play with and against Snorlax to determine that even if you can deal with it, you have to go out of your way to do so more than any other mon in NU. Gee, that sounds familiar too. Please ban this thing so NU can be more fun again I'm begging you. I know this was long, but in this case I think it's warranted, more conversation makes for the most informed decisions possible among the ppl that achieve reqs.
 
Strange to see Snorlax tumble all the way down to NU, but after running it for about a week it doesn't feel incredibly out of place.

There are a lot of viable checks to CurseLax on the offensive and defensive sides of the coin (Iron Defense Zong, Trick Scarf Rotom-C, Diancie, Sirfetch'd, Golurk, Toxicroak, Vileplume, Braviary, Passimian, Tyrantrum etc.), so it's not going to warp teambuilding around itself, and typically needs a few turns of setup to get going.

CurseLax also suffers from 4MSS because you need Curse, Rest and STAB but you want both Sleep Talk and a coverage option. As it stands, you're either giving up Rest turns or getting hard walled by Ghost types. Factor in Snorlax's weaknesses to hazards and mobility and you've got a serious, but manageable threat.

Honestly, I can see Snorlax as a positive presence in the tier since NU has a lot of powerful special attackers that struggle to break past it, and it's nice to have another option for dealing with them. Sets like Band don't seem overpowering in comparison to other physical heavy hitters, but I could see them finding a home on Trick Room teams or something.
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Pre-Contributor
CurseLax also suffers from 4MSS because you need Curse, Rest and STAB but you want both Sleep Talk and a coverage option. As it stands, you're either giving up Rest turns or getting hard walled by Ghost types. Factor in Snorlax's weaknesses to hazards and mobility and you've got a serious, but manageable threat.
I'm gonna make a post eventually on my thoughts on Lax, but I wanted to address this really quickly because I don't think it's actually true.

:ss/snorlax:

The Main Moves
The only two moves you ever need are 1) Curse and 2) Rest. After that, any combo of STAB, Darkest Lariat, or Heavy Slam all work as attacks, although as Togkey insisted on pointing out to me, and so have others, you probably should take your STAB off that list. The combo of Darkest + Heavy Slam takes care of a LOT of "checks", such as ID mons, Ghost-types, or Diancie, really letting you dive into the Curse sweeper role. With your insane natural bulk and the ability to Curse through a lot of teams, making yourself unkillable, the Rest turns usually barely matter, unless you're trying to 6-0 from the start, and you don't need any other moves in my opinion.

Other Options
Body Slam comes to mind, but less as a main option when thinking of the most optimal CurseLax set and more of a way to help cripple certain Pokemon like Sirfetch'd or Talon who might want to come in on you as you set up, whether to mess you up or stop the Curses. Sleep Talk is a really cool idea that I've seen once or twice, potentially letting you take advantage of your Rest turns to punish Pokemon that try to set up on you as you sleep, just make sure to get rid of any Ghost-types first. Another interesting pick could be something Dani and Corthius mentioned to me in Whirlwind Lax, punishing strong Physical mons or something trying to Trick you as it switches in with a round of spike shuffling.

A big thing to realize is that, especially when factoring the unpredictability of CB, a lot of these Lax sets can abuse certain answers, and until you reveal your full set, they can never truly be sure if it'll be Heavy Slam to pop your Diancie or B Slam + Lariat. Factor in a bunch of other different moveset variations, and you got a really diverse CurseLax that you can change to fit your team. Is it broken? I don't know yet, but I do look at this and feel as if it isn't as manageable as you made it seem, especially as its variations are explored. I'll get back to everyone after I really test it.
 
Last edited:

roxiee

Oh wow, I'm a princess.
is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Choice Band

:ss/tauros:
Choice Band Snorlax has a variety of coverage options to run but the thing it lacks is longevity and speed like other wallbreakers like Tyrantrum and Exploud. In fact, I can even compare Choice Band Snorlax to Tauros and Tauros has a wide movepool, great Speed and Attack, and excellent team support in Voltturn options like Xatu and Rotom-C and Spikes in Garbodor to safely bring it in and put Pokemon in range while not being locked into Choice Band like Snorlax. I don't think Choice Band Snorlax should be in the main arguments at all considering Tauros is the tier's best Normal wallbreaker.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- 70.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudsdale: 147-174 (36.3 - 43%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


CurseRest

:ss/snorlax: :chesto_berry:
The problem is we are visualizing that Snorlax is going to remain at 100% during the entire match and we are completely excluding entry hazards and chip damage from pivoting. Snorlax is only able to use two moves on CurseRest and people have been saying Heavy Slam + Darkest Lariat is the most optimal coverage on it. However, Body Slam also comes into the mist and has its fair share of spreading paralysis but then you miss out on something major. Dropping Heavy Slam means you struggle more with Diancie, Tyrantrum, and Sylveon, and removing Darkest Lariat gives a harder time against Ghost- and Steel-types like Doublade, Bronzong, and Golurk.

There are a few Snorlax setup baits like non-Roar Vaporeon, Utility Sylveon, and Xatu but I find that we can easily do one tweak like change Vaporeon to Roar and/or add a regular NU Pokemon as a teammate that also checks Snorlax. Our Fairy resistances in Copperajah, Doublade, Bronzong, and Silvally-Steel are the first things that come to mind for Normal checks and they all have the ability to factor into beating/handling Snorlax, which I explained below.

I find that Chesto Berry is a top item for Snorlax since you aren't wasting two turns asleep and it's the same as using Rest Uxie in my eyes. Uxie can counter a lot of builds, especially without a Drapion but without a Chesto Berry, it's way easier to manage. Drapion and Escavalier are supreme Uxie checks and using the mon, I have to be wary of many things like phazers like Mudsdale and Guzzlord, Trick users like Rotom-C and Starmie, and general wallbreakers.

I think Snorlax is a bit exaggerated in the brokenness because saying something like "IT EATS THREE BOOMBURSTS" when it sadly doesn't like switching into those Boombursts at all is kinda confusing me. Another issue I see is that Cresselia and Snorlax are constantly being compared but I don't find them comparable at all. Cresselia was immune to Spikes and it had consistent healing Moonlight and good bulk in defense AND spd. Not to mention that Stored Power could 6-0 most teams and if it didn't, you still had to be aware of Trick sets since they were also used to target dedicated Cresselia checks like Escavalier and Drapion, hindering their recovery.

Even unboosted, 110 base atk is respectable, and it brings me to the offensive counterplay to this mon. Please tell me what stops Curselax from simply clicking Body Slam to hit the majority of opposing offensive switchins.
When our most powerful (good NU) Pokemon, Glastrier came into the tier, the community had a major adjustment by using Flash Cannon then Iron Defense Bronzong, and Superpower speedy Copperajah more. "We" even started to call it broken but we started to use our defensive checks like Heat Wave Xatu and Dark Pulse Guzzlord and offensive checks like Trick Rotom-C and Salazzle. I've listed defensive and offensive checks and no, they don't all counter Snorlax but they all help deal with it. It's like using Silvally-Ground as a Drapion check yet it lacks longevity and is prone to get worn down over time. Here is a good number of defensive Pokemon that have the ability to check Snorlax: Copperajah, Bronzong, Mudsdale, Quagsire, Doublade, Xatu, Vaporeon, Escavalier, Guzzlord, Vileplume, and Diancie. Check does not mean counter again and I feel like the team should naturally be able to cover Snorlax without running something specific, so I've provided some SCL replays with some of the checks to support my builds should naturally beat Snorlax argument.
Copperajah :copperajah: Copperajah has Superpower and that has been a solid move to hit Guzzlord and Glastrier since those are generally heavy Pokemon in the metagame. However, Copperajah has an issue dealing with Snorlax after it has gotten to +1 Curse so here is a replay of a Copperajah build with Passimian, Tyrantrum, and Vileplume which all checks it.

Bronzong :bronzong: Bronzong to no surprise demolishes Snorlax with its Body Press and Iron Defense set 1v1 and here is a replay of me wasting a turn to allow Snorlax to get +1 Curse but I still 1v1d with Body press. Snorlax is able to get to +2 Defense leaving it at 35 HP but team support should manage the Snorlax after the Bronzong has been chipped. This recent SCL build by Sensei Axew showcases a Bronzong team with Toxicroak, non-Choice Exploud, and Mudsdale.
Doublade :doublade: Sacred Sword Doublade 2HKOes Snorlax regardless of boosts and Darkest Lariat did 35% at +1. Clicking Wish and going into a chipped Doublade on an incoming Snorlax (that's trying to use Vaporeon/Sylveon as setup bait) pressures it a lot. This also allows you to use Toxic Doublade, which also pressures Talonflame.

Phazers :guzzlord: :mudsdale: :vaporeon: Roar / Dragon Tail users are easily usable and it prevents them from being easy fodder to Curse. It also allows a teammate like Silvally-Ground, Passimian, or Drapion to check Snorlax better. Here is a SCL team with Escavalier, Talonflame, and Silvally-Ground and in theory, Dragon Tail Guzzlord does fine if it faced a Curse Snorlax team or even Escavalier alone.

Some offensive examples that check Snorlax are Rotom-C, Starmie, Toxicroak, Sirfetch'd, Exploud, Tyrantrum, Braviary, Golurk, Talonflame, and Tauros.

Trick :rotom-mow: :starmie: :palossand: Trick obviously hinders defensive Pokemon and flashback to Cresselia metagame where Cresselia really needed that Trick Choice Scarf to hinder Copperajah, Drapion, and Escavalier to sweep teams, effective eh? This is an example of utilizing a Special Pokemon to cripple a defensive Pokemon.
Exploud :exploud: Xatu is the Snorlax setup in this replay and as I said before, Snorlax is unable to stay at 100%. It is able to eat 2 Boombursts and this replay doesn't account for the hazards or the Flip Turn / Volt Switch momentum chip that happens during a standard NU game. Nonetheless, it wasn't able to get a Rest off in front of Exploud.

Like seriously, Snorlax is capable of eating 2 Exploud Boombursts, not that you should, but if the worst comes to pass, hey, now you know. I think too many people view the Snorlax suspect as testing its ability to squash everything, when in reality how hard it is take down to should be considered just as much. I'm sorry but hoping for a Sirfetch'd crit CC or winning multiple coinflips with Diancie (who, lets be honest, isn't that hard to stall out of Diamond Storms) doesn't count as consistent counterplay.
Choice Banded Close Combat does 100% to Specially Defensive Snorlax sets btw if it has a Curse up. This means you would need to run Maximum HP with Maximum Defense just to barely live a Close Combat but here is a replay. If defensive Pokemon has ways of initializing enough damage from preventing it from setting up, moves to prevent it from "sweeping" or momentarily stop it from "sweeping" so another teammate to deal with it properly, where is the issue in Curse Snorlax.

In my eyes, specialized counterplay is running something like Lanturn to completely block Heliolisk's Volt Spam or Soundproof Exploud to beat the "arising dangerous sound users in Exploud and Sylveon". Regirock is more of a specialized counterplay so it was a stretch in my examples above..lol
 

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
At this time, I don’t find Snorlax broken.

Curse sets are way more problematic on paper than in practice and the Choice Band set is good, but not great. The Curse sets are still effective, but a lot of claims about them being overbearing do not translate well, in my opinion.

I am not 100% sold as I have only encountered a handful of Snorlax so far, but I have used both sets and neither has stood out. In a tier that is pretty aggressive, especially when it comes to physical attackers, and has a lot of tough Pokemon for Snorlax to handle, it is not too shocking to me that the Curse set is not busted. I think with any offense I can keep pressure on it all game and balance it is easy to fit things that outright invalidate it or at least dissuade it enough to where I have a comfortable fighting chance.

Choice Band Snorlax is just pretty average to me. It’s good at forcing trades, a tad prediction reliant, and sometimes wishes it exchanged a little bulk for speed and being able to change moves like Tauros, a very underrated Pokemon that fulfills a partially similar niche. I think it’s really hard to not lose a significant amount of health to CB Snorlax in the long-term, especially if it’s paired with Spikes, but that is nowhere near saying it is broken and I think anyone complaining about the CB set should reconsider their thresholds for being problematic.

I lean towards do not ban, but I’m not sold quite yet.
 
Going down the VR/teambuilder it's hard for me to see how Snorlax is warping or restrictive, and I still think there's tons of possible meta exploration/creative sets in a meta with Snorlax.

Regarding viable meta picks that are able to adapt or beat Snorlax, I'll just list everything on the VR that's B+ or higher that are capable of switching into CurseLax and being able to 1v1 it, or that give Snorlax trouble setting up. Some of these have already been said above by other posts but just for the visual component I guess.
-IronPress sets are able to pressure Snorlax and can even beat it depending on circumstances. It's not the most reliable thing in the world but can get the job done, look at Roxiee's post for the proof, or even just damage calcs.
- Standard utility can't threaten it too much, though it can definitely status/pivot out of Snorlax into a different breaker. Taunt + status sets work pretty effectively as well, and were already not bad pre-shifts. I wouldn't use it purely because of Snorlax but it's an effective last-minute answer if you are teambuilding.
- Nasty Plot Painsplit sets are able to 1v1 CurseLax pretty comfortably. This replay shows how even though I was debuffed + weakened, I was still able to beat the Snorlax 1v1. Even though it didn't have Body Slam, it would've just given me more Painsplit health later on, I don't think the outcome would've been changed. Scarf works as well.
- Diancie beats every non Heavy Slam set pretty well, which can still be scouted for. Even in a 1v1 scenario, if Diancie gets a boost Heavy Slam won't OHKO. It can also support its teammates via Heal Bell incase of any Body Slam hax and whatnot.
- Dragalge isn't that big of a Snorlax answer but depending on the team composition, can still pressure Snorlax. In this replay, I had very little Dragalge protection apart from Snorlax, which resulted in my Snorlax doing nothing the whole game apart from 'checking' Dragalge. Obviously it won't be like this for every Snorlax team, but goes to show how Snorlax sometimes needs to be responsible for many hard hitters, limiting its setup. Specs Dragalge also has a decent matchup vs CurseLax, and can kill a slightly weakened one pretty easily. Tspikes and Flip Turn are annoying too.
- Dragon Tail works great at combatting CurseLax, and was already used a good amount before Snorlax arrived. Body Slam doesn't really do much to Guzzlord unless it's Adamant 252 Attack with a boost already up, which is barely a 3HKO anyways.
- Obviously not the most conventional pick but Encore Salazzle can really help in a lot of matchups. It can 'lure' a Snorlax and be great vs other things too as a surprise. IMO it was already okay before shifts, but now after shifts you have slightly more of a reason to use Encore on Salazzle. This replay shows how Snorlax can easily be lured into an Encore trap, as well as how hard it can be for the Snorlax to make progress.
- There's only a 6% chance a +1 Adamant 252 Attack Snorlax OHKOs Sirfetch'd, who is still easily brought in by the numerous pivots, or can just hard switch as the Snorlax curses/switches in. Even if Snorlax switches to try and stall out PP or whatever it's still gonna be more vulnerable to hazards/chip later on, and will be harder to find setup opportunities. There's also a large chance of Fetch'd just clicking Knock, and CC isn't even that easy to stall out.
- Boomburst's raw power can easily overwhelm a boosting Snorlax. It can get it extremely low and prevent it from resting, or even beat it 1v1. Replay from Regidrago meta but still showcases how much Snorlax takes from Boomburst. Obviously I switched it in, but still illustrates how it would've been very hard to find a position to Curse and win.
- Toxicroak is very frail but can easily be supported by the numerous pivots we have. Especially something like Talonflame or other Wisp users, who are able to limit Snorlax's damage output before bringing out a check.
-Growth sets stop Snorlax hard, and can easily abuse it as fodder. This replay shows how it can be easily forced out, along with this replay. The first replay also showcases how weak and abuseable Snorlax can be once status'd. Very self sustaining too.
:doublade: - Takes very little from any of Snorlax's moves and can setup alongside it or beat it via Secret Sword. This replays shows off how little it can take, and how it can still eat a Multi Attack + still have good amount of health left. I don't think ? NFE's have SS sprites :/
- SD sets are able to setup on Snorlax and can also just generally cripple with Knock. Good Escavalier partners like Diancie also work well against Snorlax.
- Doesn't take too much from Body Slam and can force Snorlax out or prevent it from boosting up too much. Usually paired with a Heal Bell user anyway given the prominence of like Talonflame/Vileplume.
- DD/Banded sets can all overwhelm Snorlax and has the added advantage of resisting its attacks/having good physical bulk. Though it definitely needs more support now with how common its checks are.

There are also other picks like Specs Sylveon or LO Starmie/Tauros that are able to damage Snorlax quite heavily even through boosts or as it's boosting, and in general pressure Snorlax quite a bit. Even a Blastoise can still beat Snorlax, especially considering Torrent/prior Snorlax chip. I also didn't include other phazers like Vaporeon/Muds or Haze Mantine, however they work great as well. These are also all of the Pokemon that are B+ and above on the current VR, excluding Doublade but that's gonna be on the higher ranked side anyway. There's plenty of lower ranked Pokemon that work great as well, and shows how it doesn't really stunt creativity of teams.

Here's some more niche mons that I've been having fun with that can still deal with Snorlax.

- SD and ID sets all destroy Snorlax. Even if you get para'd by Body Slam you're probably still faster lol, and once again Heal Bell is pretty common in the tier.
1634419973256.png
- Don't know if sprite shows but this is Omastar. Can comfortably setup on Snorlax and is a really underrated threat in general. Good bulk and typing allows it to better setup vs Snorlax as well.
- SubLeech Comfey is great and can destroy a lot of teams surprisingly. It recovers a lot from Snorlax with Leech Seed and can even use it as setup fodder.
- Bulk Up sets are still incredibly dangerous and I bet it's even better now with Doublade and Snorlax in the tier.
- SD sets stomach pretty much every hit and is able to win, even if the Snorlax has a +2 advantage.
- Taunt sets beat it pretty well and can also provide you with a better matchup against wish users/rest guzzlord and just in general vs slower Pokemon.

Something that also should be emphasized is the point about counters, and how even if some of these aren't complete counters, they ease the matchup vs Snorlax.
I've listed defensive and offensive checks and no, they don't all counter Snorlax but they all help deal with it. It's like using Silvally-Ground as a Drapion check yet it lacks longevity and is prone to get worn down over time.
=====================================================================

The comparisons to Cresselia are a bit unjustified IMO, Snorlax is not Cresselia 2.0. Roxiee explained it well and I'd like to add on about how its Speed, access to things like Substitute and recovery aside from Rest helped a ton. With Snorlax, it's grounded, meaning it's more vulnerable to hazards like Spikes and Tspikes unlike Cresselia. Snorlax is also way slower, making it so it's more easily abused by other slow Pokemon, and means it's revenge killed way easier. Cresselia had access to Substitute and was fast, meaning it could easily scout and setup and attack slower foes, which Snorlax cannot do. Snorlax is also forced to use Rest as a recovery move, which is still not reliable. (would link more replays if i didn't lose them) The biggest piece that seperates the two IMO is how many checks/counterplay they have. Snorlax has a large amount of checks who are not difficult or hard to fit on teams. Meanwhile Cresselia had Escavalier and Spdef Drapion, who was also in a Gastrodon and Flygon environment. Phazers were also way more necessary in that meta, where compared to now it's not as needed for Snorlax.
 

Attachments

Fusion Flare

LIVING IN A GODDAMN GARBAGE CAN???
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
see here, mr fusion flare is about to talk about the great big oaf that's got the never used tiering rung in a tangle of trouble, see?

After screwballing around for a while, i can confidently say that snorlax simply ain't broken.

In most of my games where i fought it (which were surprisingly few and far between), never did snorlax actually really pose much of an overbearing menace that it deserved a suspect test. whether that's because i'm built different (i am) or because our checks to most of its sets (see: diancie, doublade, guzzlord) are genuinely good and can keep it in check, is hard to say. people have been telling me that darkest lariat + heavy slam is really consistent and good, but in practice i haven't been all that impressed with the idea either. you're clocked by guzzlord now, and the fact that darkest lariat is your best move against smashtoise isn't a prospect i'd relish either, considering that lariat doesn't take into account defense drops. overall, i'd welcome the thing into the tier wit open arms, so long as i'm not crushed by them.
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
Figured I'd make a post now that I suffered through reqs.

Lax is nearly absent from ladder, I think I faced like one? in my entire suspect run. Honest they're not using it for a good reason (well, mainly because ladderers don't build new teams often), but like Lax folds hard to offensive pressure. When using it you often have to make a choice between using Lax as a special tank, or using it as a late game sweeper, and that choice is not a fun one to make if the rest of your team struggles into threats like NP Mowtom. Thanks to the mediocrity of Rest, and Lax's weakness to all hazards, if you wanna use it as a special tank you're often going to be forced into sleep, at which point it often doesn't have the ability to set up.

While Snorlax undoubtedly is quite terrifying once it gets 2 curses under its belt, its often going to struggle to be a huge threat before that point, as it really doesn't have the space to run high BP stabs, which means that stuff like Croak/Fetch'd/Tyrantrum do often have the ability to come in and threaten it out, especially if brought in on a double switch. It 100% is annoying to face a Lax that manages to avoid taking chip early, and has the perfect coverage to take your team on, however the unreliability of the mon, and the amount of team support it needs, especially in the face of offensive builds, mean that this is a no-ban for me. While the meta absolutely could slow down a tad, and give it more space, that's a problem for future NU.

Basically, Lax's reliance on Rest mean that its often forced to choose between sweeping, and being dead weight, its coverage, while formidable, can only be run 2 moves at a time, and it really, really, really wants the field to be clear in a meta where Spikers (and broken drudd) are only getting more common.
 
Last edited:

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
Just some thoughts on the newish Pokemon

With regards to :Doublade:, I think it warrants more discussion and usage. I feel there are two reliable ways to use it. When it comes to balance, it loves the Wish support of Vaporeon or Sylveon. Personally I enjoy a backbone of Vaporeon + Doublade + Diancie or Sylveon + Doublade with a different Stealth Rock setter depending upon the rest of the team. I find these builds a little pressed against Spikes if they do not follow a specific follow through, but otherwise pretty consistent. You can cycle in the offensive fillers you find appropriate so long as you fit speed control in sufficiently and I ran into a few of these builds on the suspect ladder.

When it comes to more offensive builds, Doublade is more splashable and less restricted. Much like Mudsdale, Doublade can function as a temporary physically defensive blanket check. Sure, Dark and Ghost types prove troublesome, but otherwise you are going to have a pretty good time and 1v1 many things with good coverage and great natural bulk with Eviolite.

I do not think there is too much room to get cute with Doublade sets beyond tinkering with the fourth slot if you opt to not Swords Dance and I feel it does warrant specific support if you wish to play more drawn out strategies, too, but there is still a ton of promise there.

As for :Snorlax:, I am still feeling out which teams it can work on, but of course with such a dynamic set mix consisting of Curse sets and Choice Band breaker variants, you have to assume it will find its way onto many builds. I think it is pretty raw for most of us still, but a lot of more proactive builds contain it nicely and more defensive builds integrate firmer counterplay, so we now have a great opportunity to see an NU metagame with Snorlax as an official member of the tier.
 

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance
is a Pre-Contributor
As for :Snorlax:, I am still feeling out which teams it can work on, but of course with such a dynamic set mix consisting of Curse sets and Choice Band breaker variants, you have to assume it will find its way onto many builds. I think it is pretty raw for most of us still, but a lot of more proactive builds contain it nicely and more defensive builds integrate firmer counterplay, so we now have a great opportunity to see an NU metagame with Snorlax as an official member of the tier.
I didn't have a chance to post my thoughts during the suspect because of irl stuff, but while I sit here procrastinating, I wanted to give my take on how people should try and fit Lax on teams. The biggest problems and complaints that I've both seen and felt when building or using Lax is that it can be an easy Pokemon to overwhelm. This can be true, but I think a lot of people can tweak their teams so that this is less of a problem.

1) The main thing to realize is that, without access to real reliable recovery outside of Rest, you have to PRESERVE LAX as a Curse wincon rather than using it as a special wall, since realistically, it isn't that great at that, and it really can't do both roles at once. A lot of the teams I've seen use CurseLax have tried to bank on its fantastic special bulk as a way to patch defensive holes, and although this can probably work on offensive teams, on more balance builds, try to implement other special walls to help sponge hits for Lax, letting it come in once or twice and win. Pokemon like Diancie, Guzz, Goodra, Sylveon, Vaporeon, Bronzong, really whatever you want with a thicc Spdef stat and resistances, all pair very solidly with Snorlax and help minimize how often you bring this Pokemon in. Just looking at some calcs with special breakers, you can see exactly what I mean, and when you pair this with constant hazard pressure, it racks up FAST, which brings us to my next point.

252 SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 181-214 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

124+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 154-182 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 11.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 172-203 (37 - 43.7%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Goodra Draco Meteor vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 141-166 (30.3 - 35.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Snorlax: 175-207 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

2) Use consistent hazard control. If you plan to bring it in to be a soft check to special breakers, or even to set up in their faces, you have to make sure your field is clear. Sure, one round of rocks might mean that you can come in on Goodra and set up, but not really a second time, and definitely not a third. Xatu is a fantastic partner for Snorlax that really goes the job well, and packing a consistent defogger like Mowtom can go a long way. Hazard control is weird in NU in my opinion, but if you're building around CurseLax, keeping the field clear should be of the utmost priority.
 
I know snorlax is new to the tier, but it 100% is too much for the metagame to handle. In my 10 games with it on my team (last night -> this morning) I have only come across 2 pokemon that even give it trouble and both are not NU pokemon, those being ditto and ferroseed (which might rise in use to stop snorlax) with a spread of 244 def, 252 spd and 14 hp with a carefull nature, and just a rest+curse set with bslam and eq, it destroyes everything with just 2 two curses. Setting up is extremely easy with the amount of special attackers in the tier that struggle to really hurt Lax, and it gets free setup on mons like Xatu and Audino, and can even do it on others like guzzlord and dragalge with ease. Status dosent bother it either as it can just rest on these mons that can do anything else, while trick from rotom mow and espeon will end this set,whike espeon is not as common and would rather trick something like audino,ferroseed or bronzong to ruin them, R mow is an issue but is still only 1 mon. Its not unstoppable by any means its just that its supremely easy to get a curse up, as its tanky enough to eat a hit and either curse again or attack, both of which are lose/lose to your opponent cuz they either let you boost or eat a strong bslam and risk para with doing little to no damage in return. The only thing keeping lax in check is strong physical attacks and hazards before it can set up, but with good support (defog Talonflame + rotom M, burn Arcanine+ Talonflame, reflect + magic bounce Xatu to name a few) make this less of an issue, coupled with the fact that all 3 are top tier mons in NU who are on most to all teams, Snorlax has a very easy time staying safe.
 
Last edited:
I know snorlax is new to the tier, but it 100% is too much for the metagame to handle. In my 10 games with it on my team (last night -> this morning) I have only come across 2 pokemon that even give it trouble and both are not NU pokemon, those being ditto and ferroseed (which might rise in use to stop snorlax) with a spread of 244 def, 252 spd and 14 hp with a carefull nature, and just a rest+curse set with bslam and eq, it destroyes everything with just 2 two curses. Setting up is extremely easy with the amount of special attackers in the tier that struggle to really hurt Lax, and it gets free setup on mons like Xatu and Audino, and can even do it on others like guzzlord and dragalge with ease. Status dosent bother it either as it can just rest on these mons that can do anything else, while trick from rotom mow and espeon will end this set,whike espeon is not as common and would rather trick something like audino,ferroseed or bronzong to ruin them, R mow is an issue but is still only 1 mon. Its not unstoppable by any means its just that its supremely easy to get a curse up, as its tanky enough to eat a hit and either curse again or attack, both of which are lose/lose to your opponent cuz they either let you boost or eat a strong bslam and risk para with doing little to no damage in return. The only thing keeping lax in check is strong physical attacks and hazards before it can set up, but with good support (defog Talonflame + rotom M, burn Arcanine+ Talonflame, reflect + magic bounce Xatu to name a few) make this less of an issue, coupled with the fact that all 3 are top tier mons in NU who are on most to all teams, Snorlax has a very easy time staying safe.
I feel like im being clowned on
 
Just some thoughts on the newish Pokemon

With regards to :Doublade:, I think it warrants more discussion and usage. I feel there are two reliable ways to use it. When it comes to balance, it loves the Wish support of Vaporeon or Sylveon. Personally I enjoy a backbone of Vaporeon + Doublade + Diancie or Sylveon + Doublade with a different Stealth Rock setter depending upon the rest of the team. I find these builds a little pressed against Spikes if they do not follow a specific follow through, but otherwise pretty consistent. You can cycle in the offensive fillers you find appropriate so long as you fit speed control in sufficiently and I ran into a few of these builds on the suspect ladder.

When it comes to more offensive builds, Doublade is more splashable and less restricted. Much like Mudsdale, Doublade can function as a temporary physically defensive blanket check. Sure, Dark and Ghost types prove troublesome, but otherwise you are going to have a pretty good time and 1v1 many things with good coverage and great natural bulk with Eviolite.

I do not think there is too much room to get cute with Doublade sets beyond tinkering with the fourth slot if you opt to not Swords Dance and I feel it does warrant specific support if you wish to play more drawn out strategies, too, but there is still a ton of promise there.

As for :Snorlax:, I am still feeling out which teams it can work on, but of course with such a dynamic set mix consisting of Curse sets and Choice Band breaker variants, you have to assume it will find its way onto many builds. I think it is pretty raw for most of us still, but a lot of more proactive builds contain it nicely and more defensive builds integrate firmer counterplay, so we now have a great opportunity to see an NU metagame with Snorlax as an official member of the tier.
I feel like Doublade is going to be hard to use ,with how common and popular mons like Guzzlord, Drapion, Bulky Talonflame and Arcanine, all of whom either wield status, spam knock off and resist one of Doublades stabs are gonna make its life hard. Its still gonna be quite annoying for teams lacking burn and or a dark type so its still gotta be watched out for.
 
I feel like im being clowned on
Very few people consider Snorlax broken or banworthy; 84% of people voted to unban it in its recent suspect test.

Some common and good countermeasures include:
- Sirfetchd (especially with Leek), Machamp, and Scrafty;
- Trick from mons like Rotom-Mow, Golurk, Starmie, and Xatu (the latter 2 dont run it much but u can tech it on if you're struggling with it);
- Steel-types like ID+BP Zong, SD CC Escavalier, and Secret Sword Doublade;
- Roar Mudsdale, Encore Diancie, and Taunt Talonflame.

Shakier teams can try to keep hazards up and use their special breakers to force it to take enough chip that it can't comfortably set up.

I'd recommend you try some of these out and see if you can understand why the vast majority of people don't think it's broken. Don't take this as people clowning on you though, they just happen to disagree with your assessment of Snorlax checks as being very limited.

(For what it's worth, I agree with your opinions about Doublade, which I also consider easy to check and hard to use well)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top