np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

Status
Not open for further replies.

North

Who gave Croven a trophy wtf!
is a Tiering Contributor
The beauty of physical attacking pokemon is that they are susceptible to both burn and intimidate. Of course a megagross won't stay in on an obvious WoW, but what it does is it forces them out hindering his ability to sweep. He also has no attack boosting set up moves, the only way to up his attack and sweep is through a less accurate alternative that is at best unreliable for setting up let alone hitting (aka meteor mash). Part of the reason i don't think he should be banned is all of these factors contributing to megagross being unable to sweep reliably which basically defines ubers (a pokemon that can set up on a majority of the tier and sweep)
Let's talk typing. Steel Psychic is a pretty solid typing defensively being resistant to 9 other types and weak to only 4. Again, another upside to being a physical attacker who is also a psychic type foul play is a very nice alternative to countering. Typically used on dark types (who are immune to his psychic stab allowing for an easier switch prediction) with massive amounts of bulk allowing sustainability in a 1v1 fight against a megagross (ex: Sableye(mega or not) and umbreon)
Of course with his massive 150 def stat, he is an insanely fat mon and hard to take down (admittedly quite annoying) but he is weak to common typings.
Ground (try to find a team without a lando)
Dark (bisharp pursuit pressures and sucker punch pressures along with the previously discussed weakness to foul play)
Fire (fire coverage is necessary with or without megagross due to how common the steel typing is due to its fantastic defensive capabilities)
Ghost (i really like scarf gengar which can be used against any set besides the agility set but the substitute gengar set can do well end game if they are forced into megagross while u have a sub up or putting one up the turn they come in)

TLDR: While megagross is strong and intimidating to a team not specifically prepared for him, his weakness to common typings and susceptibility to WoW and intimidate which are both very common allow any person to work around a megagross reasonably. This coupled with his inability to reliably sweep due to his lack of set up moves (really only agility but does nothing when discussing his ability to ohko with no boosted attack) make him easy enough to work around in any battle.
Can a pokemon like Aegislash easily set up and sweep the entire tier? I deffinatly don't think so. That is a defenition of an uber that is designed to sweep, like Mega Khanghaskhan. In the case of Mega Metagross, it's designed to be a fast and bulky cleaner with amazing coverage to threaten every single mon in the tier. Just because a mon can't set up swords dance and win, doesn't mean it's not broken. If a mon has no counters, and someone has to specifically run multiple checks to it to avoid being demolished by it flat out, makes it broken. Mega Metagross scares away many offensive teams, and certein mons like Mega Pinsir or Terrakion. Having to run multiple checks to save yourself from losing to this mon is just too unhealthy for the metagame.
 
The beauty of physical attacking pokemon is that they are susceptible to both burn and intimidate. Of course a megagross won't stay in on an obvious WoW, but what it does is it forces them out hindering his ability to sweep. He also has no attack boosting set up moves, the only way to up his attack and sweep is through a less accurate alternative that is at best unreliable for setting up let alone hitting (aka meteor mash). Part of the reason i don't think he should be banned is all of these factors contributing to megagross being unable to sweep reliably which basically defines ubers (a pokemon that can set up on a majority of the tier and sweep)

Let's talk typing. Steel Psychic is a pretty solid typing defensively being resistant to 9 other types and weak to only 4. Again, another downside to being a physical attacker who is also a psychic type is that foul play is a very nice option to counter. Typically used on dark types (who are immune to his psychic stab allowing for an easier switch prediction) with massive amounts of bulk allowing sustainability in a 1v1 fight against a megagross (ex: Sableye(mega or not) and umbreon)
Of course with his massive 150 def stat, he is an insanely fat mon and hard to take down (admittedly quite annoying) but he is weak to common typings.
Ground (try to find a team without a lando)
Dark (bisharp pursuit pressures and sucker punch pressures along with the previously discussed weakness to foul play)
Fire (fire coverage is necessary with or without megagross due to how common the steel typing is due to its fantastic defensive capabilities)
Ghost (i really like scarf gengar which can be used against any set besides the agility set but the substitute gengar set can do well end game if they are forced into megagross while u have a sub up or putting one up the turn they come in.)

A couple quick calculations showing an SD scizor with roost can not only tank hits but get up SDs and sweep a team or force a switch depending on how well your opponent plays it
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 156 Def Scizor: 102-120 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- 14% chance to 3HKO
104+ Atk Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 114-135 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+4 104+ Atk Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 339-400 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With hp and slight defensive investment a megagross can be turned into set up fodder for scizor (Don't even suggest BS moves like HP fire on a megagross) Earthquake was the hardest hitting move on megagross' common moveset (steel and psychic both resisted and EQ neautral with no stab) As for the people who say this is a wierd set, I would argue that defensive scizor isn't so wierd. If you really think you can win in a meta with all your sets 252/252 EVs i don't think you have a place in this arguement because you obviously don't understand how pokemon works (I'm not trying to attack or degrade anyone, I just think that you can't expect results when you put in 5 seconds of effort on an EV spread and expect it to cover everything in the game) Saying that scizor isn't a counter because he can only switch in a limited number of times is also not an excuse in this case because scizor has access to reliable sustain and his defensive investment is supplemented by SD boosts.

"A combination of speed and power with a good movepool" I try to avoid doing this but that explanation for banning is applicable to MANY more pokemon than megagross so i don't see how that is justification for it to be banned (and to be honest his movepool leaves much to be desired) The only common sets i saw was earthquake, meteor mash/iron head, zen headbutt/bullet punch, agility/grass knot. The only real wild card with him is pursuit trapping but that wildcard exists wherever bisharp and ttar are (I've lost games because i played in fear of pursuit ttar. His diverse movepool and powerful attacks scared me into not using my gengar which would've eliminated multiple threats. It's bulk didn't allow me to ohko so i left my gengar idle in the back to preserve it. By the time I realized he didn't have pursuit later in the match it was too late. Losing games because of a possible move is no justification for banning in my book.)

I know how much you guys hate this argument (it's not so much of an argument as pointing out the results of banning), but it has to be said. Each pokemon in the meta plays a key role in checking and countering pokemon. For instance keldeo is one of the hardest checks to bisharp and without it, bisharp could SD and sweep teams a lot easier. If keldeo were to be banned Bisharp would see higher levels of usage and would sweep teams easier or cause everyone who used a keldeo to use the next hardest bisharp counter and we would see a huge spike in usage of that. When we ban pokemon we have to think of how it will affect the meta. If you take cheetahs away from africa, antelopes will thrive and the same goes for pokemon. Through personal testing on the ladder i see a couple things that may or may not end up out of control. With proper team support mega venusaur is very powerful, even now. In the absence of megagross I've noticed a mega venu + heatran core is very powerful and almost unstoppable. Everything that threatens venu and can tanked and dealt with by heatran (mainly tanking the brave birds but also the psyshocks and draco meteors as well as deterring fire and ice type attacks so switching in before mega evolvng is safer). I'm not saying mega venu is unstoppable but i truly believe when we take away a predator, it's prey becomes the new predator and we can't just take out predators until there are no more.


TLDR: While megagross is strong and intimidating to a team not specifically prepared for him, his weakness to common typings and susceptibility to WoW and intimidate which are both very common allow any person to work around a megagross reasonably. This coupled with his inability to reliably sweep due to his lack of set up moves (really only agility but does nothing when discussing his ability to ohko with no boosted attack) make him easy enough to work around in any battle. Reliable checks and counters aren't so rare, for instance the calcs of a partially defensive max hp scizor with SD and roost prove that even fragile mons can counter with the right move set and EV spread and on top of that add another set up threat that your opponent has to deal with even if they don't have a megagross (also threatens diancie which is gaining popularity in the absence of megagross). Megagross' psychic typing leaves him vulnerable to bulky pokemon with access to foul play like umbreon or sableye (who also provides WoW pressure).

IMO, no ban
 

CTC

I COULD BE BANNED!
is a Two-Time Past SPL Championis a Two-Time Past WCoP Champion
Big Chungus Winner
WHY R WE BANNING THIS SHIT looooooool its not a fuckin threat outspeeding 90% of the meta w impeccable coverage like ninja, nor is it an unkillable durable setup god like mence/aegi. this shit is moderately fast, moderately bulky, has moderately good coverage, and hits pretty fuckin hard. its in the right place at the center of the meta because it is a gr8 glue and breaker just as its design suggests. why the fuck is this shit considered broke? the fat balance breaker niche that it fulfills is gr8, this way everyone cant just spam gliscor ferro tran slowbro gay ass shit like they have for the past few months brainlessly. FUCK retarded generic fat shit cores that require 0 play to work. fuckit. gross does justice to the meta and balances the offensive shit w the fat shit creating a somewhat diverse concoction. it is just the gen6 version of gen 5 kyub minus the rock weakness. "omg too bulky omg too strong omg typing too good" calm ur shit niggas. free gross fuck the system
 
Can a pokemon like Aegislash easily set up and sweep the entire tier? I deffinatly don't think so. That is a defenition of an uber that is designed to sweep, like Mega Khanghaskhan. In the case of Mega Metagross, it's designed to be a fast and bulky cleaner with amazing coverage to threaten every single mon in the tier. Just because a mon can't set up swords dance and win, doesn't mean it's not broken. If a mon has no counters, and someone has to specifically run multiple checks to it to avoid being demolished by it flat out, makes it broken. Mega Metagross scares away many offensive teams, and certein mons like Mega Pinsir or Terrakion. Having to run multiple checks to save yourself from losing to this mon is just too unhealthy for the metagame.
I Messed up my first post sorry. i expanded a little bit on some other points to not ban (i know it's long but a ban can't be disputed or justified in a sentence).
In response to you however:
Aegislash was the set up king. Swords dance sub shadow sneak iron head/sacred sword. He had reliable set up in shield form with insane defenses and swords dance (3 turn set up) could tank super effective hits easily so weakness policy was common resulting in a 2 turn set up sometimes. The aegislash would proceed to destroy the opponents team.
As for your comments about scaring away offensive teams, i disagree completely, not on the fact that he scares some offensive mons, but making that a bannable offense. I don't think metagross has the capability to scare off as many pokemon as you make it out to be but subbing for a better match up is common. Just because you sub for a better match up doesn't mean megagross is this eater of innocent child souls it just means the pokemon u wanted to save had a slightly worse match up. I truly don't see much of a difference between megagross and any other fast strong sweeper other than a slightly better ability to run a mixed set.
 
Gross reminds me of Gen 4 Chomp. It has the power (roughly the same power as LO excadrill, with no recoil), the bulk (it's flat out bulkier than Defensive Rotom-W, with no investment), typing (Steel + anything is excellent), has that one special attack to pick off would be counters (ChainChomp's Draco Meteor vs Metagross's Grass Knot), and the trolly, slightly better than "good" speed (102 when good was considered 100 vs 110 when good is considered 105-108).

The problem isn't so much that Metagross rips the metagame apart (it doesn't), but that it does so well against most everything that there's little reason to use other megas. Sucker Lunch might be more than a bit biased, but he has a point: Metagross pretty much single-handedly dropped Pinsir from a HO monster that was almost going to be suspected to an afterthought.

If you compare it to other megas, every other mega has a match-up problem:

Diancie does extremely well against offense, but balance (with Ferro/Rotom-W) and stall (with Chansey/Amoonguss) give it a lot of trouble.
Sableye does really, really good against Stall, but balance and offense power through it fairly easily, with stuff like Clefable or Diancie.
Charizard-Y and X eat balance alive, but HO kills it too fast and stall can wall it with Chansey for Y and Quagsire for X.
Gardevoir breaks stall, loses to offense.
Venusaur, Manectric and M-Lop do nothing against stall.

Metagross is in a different scenario. It's already been said that it eats up balance for breakfast. Offense struggles to find a solution that doesn't involve sacking a mon to get a safe switch, sacking another mon to weaken it, and finishing it off with a third. Stall can't hurt it badly enough, because its typing gives it a resistance to common forms of passive damage (Toxic and SR) and its natural bulk just means it's not taking a whole lot, so it can repeatedly come in and whittle you down. Your only fool-proof solution is to use Counter Skarmory, which has its own problems.

The combination of power, bulk, speed, typing, ability, and movepool make M-Metagross a "perfect Pokemon" (by which I mean that it has one of the best combination of the above possible). Using any other Pokemon in OU makes you weak to something. Using Metagross doesn't make you particularly weak to anything.


To quote CTC, "because it is a gr8 glue and breaker just as its design suggests". So yeah, M-Meta is glue you can throw onto any team to make it sturdier. I think that simply being able to blindly throw on a mon on a team, and not worry about how well it works with the team, is grounds for an Uber tiering. You might disagree. At that point, it gets into a difference in policy.
 
Metagross is in a different scenario. It's already been said that it eats up balance for breakfast. Offense struggles to find a solution that doesn't involve sacking a mon to get a safe switch, sacking another mon to weaken it, and finishing it off with a third. Stall can't hurt it badly enough, because its typing gives it a resistance to common forms of passive damage (Toxic and SR) and its natural bulk just means it's not taking a whole lot, so it can repeatedly come in and whittle you down. Your only fool-proof solution is to use Counter Skarmory, which has its own problems.
Offense can hit it when it mega evolves to allow a second mon to RK or just use something that wins 1v1; and it's easy to RK if it's taken a hit from something it tried to check. Absolutely never have I needed to sac a third of my team to handle Metagross. Its bulk is overstated a bit, yeah its base stats are better than Skarmory's but you don't invest much if at all in them, it's easily 2HKOed by hard hitters (it can be 3HKOed by something as weak as unboosted Gyarados' Waterfall for example).

Stall doesn't use Toxic and Hazards exclusively lol. We shouldn't cater to a non-existent playstyle whose users convulse when someone suggests they use, you know, ATTACKS to win a game.

And Balance does have answers.

"Little reason to use other megas" is also downright untrue. It doesn't have the defensive capabilities of Mega Slowbro, Altaria, Scizor, Venusaur, or Sableye. It isn't as exceedingly difficult to check as Mega Gardevoir or Heracross. Its speed is merely good, it's not as difficult to revenge kill as Mega Lopunny, Manectric, Sceptile, Alakazam, or Aerodactyl; or boosted Mega Charizard X and Gyarados. It can't break stall as well as Mega Houndoom can. I'm not saying these megas are as good as Metagross but they excel in ways Metagross doesn't. I see Metagross as a generalized mega that's a safe pick most of the time and will usually put in work; it's a low risk, high reward pokemon. But other megas can easily exert far more reward in the right situation, and there's really not all that much risk in using a great mega. I'd never say "gee I'd probably be better off using Mega Metagross instead of Mega Gyarados" cause Mega Gyarados is fucking brutal anyway lol.
 

Bluwing

icequeen
is a Tutor Alumnus
WHY R WE BANNING THIS SHIT looooooool its not a fuckin threat outspeeding 90% of the meta w impeccable coverage like ninja, nor is it an unkillable durable setup god like mence/aegi. this shit is moderately fast, moderately bulky, has moderately good coverage, and hits pretty fuckin hard. its in the right place at the center of the meta because it is a gr8 glue and breaker just as its design suggests. why the fuck is this shit considered broke? the fat balance breaker niche that it fulfills is gr8, this way everyone cant just spam gliscor ferro tran slowbro gay ass shit like they have for the past few months brainlessly. FUCK retarded generic fat shit cores that require 0 play to work. fuckit. gross does justice to the meta and balances the offensive shit w the fat shit creating a somewhat diverse concoction. it is just the gen6 version of gen 5 kyub minus the rock weakness. "omg too bulky omg too strong omg typing too good" calm ur shit niggas. free gross fuck the system
im agreeing 100% with CTC here, im all good with it being suspected cuz then we get a more diverse look at it. but i feel the suspect threads are more like "100% ban threads" now. metagross is not broken, it's actually one off the few mons balancing off the meta, tbh the suspect ladder is horrible and much more unbalanced than it was before we suspected the spider. offensive teams are also alot harder to pull off now, as metagross is an exceptional glue on these teams. and yes it's a very strong poke, just look at it's stats, but just because it's stats are amazing doesn't mean it's broken. theres a a couple 700 bst pokemon in the ou metagame tho metagross is the best out off them, they rly don't stand out as you would think they would. i think removing metagross from the meta will only hurt it more than help it, and i rly hope ppl will open up their eyes so we can keep it.
 
I Messed up my first post sorry. i expanded a little bit on some other points to not ban (i know it's long but a ban can't be disputed or justified in a sentence).
In response to you however:
Aegislash was the set up king. Swords dance sub shadow sneak iron head/sacred sword. He had reliable set up in shield form with insane defenses and swords dance (3 turn set up) could tank super effective hits easily so weakness policy was common resulting in a 2 turn set up sometimes. The aegislash would proceed to destroy the opponents team.
As for your comments about scaring away offensive teams, i disagree completely, not on the fact that he scares some offensive mons, but making that a bannable offense. I don't think metagross has the capability to scare off as many pokemon as you make it out to be but subbing for a better match up is common. Just because you sub for a better match up doesn't mean megagross is this eater of innocent child souls it just means the pokemon u wanted to save had a slightly worse match up. I truly don't see much of a difference between megagross and any other fast strong sweeper other than a slightly better ability to run a mixed set.
boy, aegislash didn't get banned by the swords dance set. if that set was his only set, it would be BL or lower today. the SD set is bullcrap and it will always be, it's too vulnerable to burns even with substitute and easily walled. the most dangerous sets were the defensive and mixed one, by a fair amount. aegislash mainly got banned by how much impredictable was, and because there was 1 or 2 (gliscor and mega scizor), maybe 3 or 4 (if we count dragonite and charizard mega who care little about anything not named toxic and even when statused they defeat it on the long run, especially with the help of a cleric) hard counters. (and i still disagree with that ban, i think that aegi staying in would have prevented many other bans, right away).

megagross is a similar case, sadly. he has many sets and coverage options, and it's hardly possible to guess which is the set you are facing. THAT is what forces everyone to run multiple checks, because even if you pack a dedicated counter for it, it's perfectly possible for him to carry the one move your counter cannot take well. i will not vote because i don't have time to ladder, but i think we should consider with care if we want once again the massive disorder that followed the aegi ban (this time with diancie, who ahs been proven to become twice as dangerous without his premier check around, mimicking the mawile trouble who followed what i see was THE ban of XY). as a side note, it's fun that the cycle is repeating: fast mixed cleaner with excessive power and diversity, followed by a sturdy steel tank with a pretty convenient secondary typing and massive stats, and then a powerfull offensive fairy mega with an amazing ability to go crazy.
 
Last edited:

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
After getting my reqs, here are my 2 cents.

Tbh, I did not enjoy the suspect ladder at all, I started out using balance, but after so many 100 turn fat balance vs fat balance matchups I just decided fuck my record, I'm just going to spam generic offense because the meta without Metagross is pretty damn horrible imo, full of fat balance and centered largely around Fairies and beating Fairies, I saw so much Venu, Jirachi, Garde and Diancie that I lost count. In my opinion, the meta beforehand was preferable, because it seemed a lot more diverse and in balance to an extent that it wasn't centered around a certain group of Pokemon, albeit I did find it very matchup based, but that's just my opinion.

On the subject of Metagross as a pokemon, yeah it is a massive factor to consider when teambuilding, but then isn't every S-Rank mon? When I was making teams back before the suspect test, I actually found more of my teams being bopped by Landorus-i rather than Metagross because I feel that while true counters are rare, there are lots of viable checks to Metagross and at the end of the day, while it has fantastic bulk, it's not as hard to wear down as you might think. No passive recovery, very vulnerable to spikes, still takes a chunk from most moderately powerful special attacks even if resisted. Overall, I just don't think it's that difficult to make teams that don't get run over by Metagross, compared to something like Greninja, where I'd make a team, share it with someone for their advice and they'd go 4/6 pokemon lose to Greninja.

Overall I believe Metagross suits the metagame more with it in it, and isn't overly broken in it's own right either. No ban.
 
Hi im a new smogon player and its my 1st time doing suspect testing, i think its a BAN because as everyone said Mega metagross had that very good bulk which is very hard to deal with. Secondly, it can kill mons relatively easy with stab+ability and can threaten its counters if it has another coverage move like icepunch / grass knot and also there are only very few mons that can easily wall it like scizor. This m-metagross is also really fast with 110 base speed matching the lati twins which couldnt do anything to it, because its very very good typing of steel psychic. And also scarf mons would be the most reliable mons that can kill this thing but its not that guaranteed without prior damage and if metagross survives it can retaliate and kill. Its a tough decision for me but i think overall its a ban
 

Attachments

Alright, after getting the reqs I'm gonna leave my thoughts here as well. My initial stance on this suspect was No Ban and after playing the suspect ladder and following this thread it still is.

My reasons for this are the amount of common checks (or soft checks if you will) for Megagross in this metagame (Talonflame, Bisharp, Landorus, Mega-Manectric, Rotom-W, Slowbro, SandRushDrill, Charizard, Starmie, Ferrothorn or Gliscor and I could probably go on) and how they naturally fit on teams of all archetypes. I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one who built a team where several of these checks ended up on without specifically preparing for Megagross.
For example out of one of the most common OU utility cores, Lando-Rotom-Ferro, all 3 are giving Megagross a hard time. Sure, it may be able to soften them up or even knock one or two of them out under favourable battle conditions for the Megagross user (which some pro-Ban-arguments seem to assume are a given) but imo it's not going to break through this core or weaken them enough for an other team member to sweep without the Megagross making the better plays or the opponent making the worse plays.

With the amount of mons Megagross doesn't enjoy staying in against at all and the amount of coverage moves Megagross' so called switch-in-opportunities run (pretty much all common OU Fairys can and usually do run Dark/Fire/Ground-coverage for example) I'm really having a hard time considering Megagross broken or overpowered in this metagame nor unhealthy or overcentralising considering how all of these mons and coverage moves were common before Megagross even got released.

The only Pro-Ban-arguments which made me somewhat question my view on this were what WebBowser said on Megagross's power ratio (the amount of damage it deals on average by the amount of damage it is dealt in common battle conditions) but as far as I'm concerned that's not enough to justify Megagross as broken but as very good. Some mons are simply better than others, otherwise we wouldn't have a viability ranking, wouldn't we? Some of you might draw the line between broken and very good differently than I do, but that's how I see it. Also, I can definetely see Stathakis' point about the metagame being coinflip-esque, the dependance on predictions/50:50s and match-up to deal with Megagross is hard to deny, at least from what I experienced but I don't feel like it does effect the metagame to an extent, which would justify completely removing said mon from this tier.

I also agree with the notion of banning a Pokemon for the sake of making the metagame change is not setting a good precedent for potential future bans. So far the Bans in Gen 6 were always justifiable from an objective point of view and backed by facts (Aegislash probably being a borderline case here but Megagross is not as powerful as Aegi and not nearly as centralising) and I think that's how it should always be done.

Not gonna touch on Megagross' individual qualities and the 4MSS and prediction argument, since everyone is probably tired of hearing about them and this post is long enough as it is. Unless someone in this thread, regardless of whether they'll respond to my comment or not, convinces me otherwise I'll be voting No Ban on metagrossite.
 
Last edited:
Ok, so I've been a little too busy/lazy to get reqs for this test, but I still want to toss out my scattered thoughts before this thread gets closed in the next couple days or so. Before I get started, let me apologize if I sound a bit peeved right now. I just got off a 20 minute campus transit ride with a driver blaring "Narwhals" on repeat through the bus's speakers, so needless to say I'm about ready to bust a cap in some dude's iPod.

So first off, I'm not convinced that Mega Metagross is broken, and there are even some pro-ban people who have agreed on this. It's got good power, solid bulk, quite a Speed stat, and solid coverage. The problem is that I don't think it excels in any of these categories enough to break it like Pokemon such as Mega Mawile and Greninja before it. And no, I don't think its combination of bulk, power, speed, and coverage is game breaking either. Okay, so it has few universal counters. Welcome to 6th Gen OU! Please, have a seat while I explain to you a few facts about this exciting metagame, like the fact that most of the top offensive threats have ways of getting past their usual counters just like Mega Metagross and that the days of having universal counters for everything died out years ago. Fact is, Mega Metagross's individual sets have their own counters, and it's got more than enough checks to let teams handle it.

On that note: I don't know at what point in time that the definition of "checks" became some complicated BS about having to switch in at least once or twice under some circumstances into some move or all moves or I don't know what all, but I've been playing this game competitively for nearly 5 years now, and the definition of "check" as I've always known it has been "a Pokemon that wins 1v1 even if it can't necessarily switch in." So yes, revenge killers are checks. If you at least have a few Pokemon that can win 1v1 against a certain Pokemon (like Mega Metagross), then that Pokemon will have fewer opportunities to come in safely and will never be able sweep you as long as you're not badly outplayed and lose your checks. Sometimes in this game that's about all you can ask for anyway, but through good play and aggressive double switches, U-turns/Volt Switches, etc., you can play around it well enough to where it won't be able to threaten you that much (even if not much on your team switches in easily) while you in turn put more pressure on your opponent. If you want something that can switch in a couple of times, then you're looking for a "hard" check, maybe even a counter. But I think that a lot of these arguments about checks would end if people would stop saying things like, "That Pokemon's not actually a check because it can't switch into X moves under Y circumstances" or whatever. If you have a problem with that definition, then march on down to the Contributions section and make a case for it because our analyses have always been chock full of checks in the Checks and Counters sections that can't necessarily switch in safely but are still listed because they can put pressure on the Pokemon in question so that it can't beat you. Unless, again, you get outplayed, but that's more your fault than Mega Metagross's.

Okay, so with that out of the way, I'm kinda in the same position with Mega Metagross and its effect on the metagame that I was with Aegislash. I don't think it's outright broken, and I also don't think its effect on the metagame is drastic enough to warrant a ban either. Like Clone said about the suspect ladder a couple pages back, Slowbros are still Slowbros, Ferrothorns are still Ferrothorns, Landorus-Ts are still Landorus-Ts, and many of the other Pokemon that people say they are "forced" to use because of Mega Metagross are still viable and common. Certainly, a Mega Metagross ban is going to change up some things. Stuff like Counter and Rocky Helmet will be less necessary on Skarmory, various Fairies will obviously improve a bit due to the ban of the current dominant Steel, and other things of that nature. However, I'm just not seeing this radical difference that you'd expect from what's supposed to be an enormous strain on teambuilding by Mega Metagross. Yes, it's restrictive to an extent. So are the other top threats in the metagame, and as CTC explained earlier, it can be argued that Mega Metagross's particular brand of restriction could be considered more helpful than harmful (Aegislash deja vu IMO).

Now, I do realize that some people have suggested that a ban of Mega Metagross is one step that we need to take in order to fix the problem of team matchup in this metagame (a problem that I believe is existent but exaggerated, but whatever), but I'm personally not comfortable with this. It really comes down to one's own personal banning philosophy, but I don't think that we should ban top threats even if they aren't broken in the hope that one day team matchup won't be a big problem anymore. There are 719 Pokemon in this game, many of which are viable in OU in one way or another. and banning one top threat is just going to lead to the rise of more to take its place. You're still going to have Pokemon that are better overall than others and are going to force you to prepare more for them than you would for other Pokemon, and unless you make an absurd number of bans, I'm not sure we're ever going to be able to get to a point where you actually can prepare solidly for everything. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the light at the end of this tunnel, and I don't think that we even have a well defined definition of what sort of metagame we'd be looking for if we went down that road.

So yeah, I don't think Mega Metagross is outright broken, I don't think its restrictive or unhealthy enough to warrant a ban, and I don't think that banning it as part of a long-term process to limit the current team matchup problem is a good idea. That's my 3 cents on the matter, agree, disagree, rate, like, comment, subscribe, Gibbs out.
 

Syberia

[custom user title]
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
It's probably too late to change anyone's opinion on this, but I may as well voice my thoughts. Mega Metagross has always seemed to echo shades of Greninja for me - it does not have the ridiculous amount of super effective coverage that the ninja frog did, but it makes up for it with a much higher attack stat, and what amounts to basically a free Life Orb on the vast majority of its moves. This makes switching into a neutral hit much harder than against Greninja, while at the same time, aside from Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt, MGross has plenty of coverage options to handle what its STABs do not. Base 110 Speed is not terribly worse, all things considered, as few Pokemon other than Talonflame can outspeed Metagross and pose a significant threat to it, especially with the very real risk of Tough Claws Bullet Punch. Even Talonflame cannot OHKO, and takes significant damage from Stealth Rock. Of course, MGross can always Agility/Rock Polish and then your fast check is useless. Unlike Greninja, MGross has significant bulk allowing it to shrug off most forms of priority not called Sucker Punch, which is hardly reliable.
 

Always!

No matter what, I'm clocking out by six.
is a Tiering Contributor
After my long experience trying and eventually succeeding in getting reqs, I'll give my 2 cents.

On the ladder itself, Fairies were of course much more prevalent, especially MDiancie, MGarde, and Specs Sylv among others. Furthermore, the more prominent playstyle that was observed was a bulkier type of offense.

Metagross as a Pokemon is interesting enough, sporting 80/150/110 defensive stats, and carrying decent typing that gives it 9 resistances and 1 immunity (as well as an SR resistance), but carries weaknesses to certain prevalent attacking types such as Dark and Ground. On the offensive side, it carries an attack stat of 145 + Tough Claws and a speed stat that hits a decently crowded and arguably critical speed tier at 110. Combined with an expansive movepool carrying gems such as GK, Ice Punch, Hammer Arm and its main STABs, Metagross is easily considered top tier by most all OU players. At the same time, Metagross does have its fair share of checks and the occasional counter, many of which are considered common, such as Bisharp, Rotom-W, Landorus-T (Scarf) etc. This doesn't exactly mean it isn't broken and uncompetitive as even things like MKanga had counters etc, but one must realize that these checks/counters aren't niche. The fact that these Pokemon are common enough to be on most teams (sometimes without the presence of MMeta's threat to the team taken into account) does signify that it certainly isn't overly centralizing. As some users pointed out that MMeta does indeed have competition for its Mega slot, due to it not encompassing other Pokemon in their roles such as MAltaria and MScizor, making it simple to point out that slapping Mega-Metagross on a team doesn't produce the same results as say, Mega Salamence. Because it doesn't eclipse most other Megas in their roles, it in itself might generally be weighted more on the rewarding side while exerting less risk than other Megas, but it can't claim to be better in most scenarios and warrant a placement over others more times than not. While Metagross might be seen as the perfect trinity of Power, Bulk, and Speed, it doesn't particularly excel in any of those stats to the point of making it broken, as its speed is good but not blazing fast, its power is admirable but not giving its checks a hard time without the appropriate coverage move, and its bulk is terrific on paper, but without investment just barely manages to survive ridiculous attacks like LO Bisharp's Sucker Punch, among others. Like all other Pokemon, it still relies on team support (albeit arguably much less than others) in order to perform to its peak. It isn't inherently broken for these reasons, and on closer examination doesn't really warrant a ban as it isn't uncompetitive or ridiculously overcentralizing among others.

Of course, this is just my opinion. If I screwed up anywhere, or my opinion's shit and doesn't make sense, then that's on me.
 

Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Alright, this thread's time is up. To start, I'm going to condense what I thought were the both sides' strongest arguments into one paragraph for each, and then a bulleted list if you don't want to read a paragraph.
Pro-Ban

The non Mega Metagross metagame is more enjoyable than the Mega Metagross metagame. Mega Metagross isn't definitively broken, but its checks and counters in the metagame are very limited, and this limits creativity and makes teambuilding substantially more difficult, which in turn produces the current stale and unenjoyable metagame. While Mega Metagross's coverage certainly isn't at Greninja's level, it still is absurd, and it allows Mega Metagross to beat would-be counters and checks, such as Hippowdon, Mega Slowbro, Quagsire, and Gliscor. It, like Greninja, is able to cater its moveset to its team's needs, smash what it needs to, and rely on its teammates for Pokemon that they can already cover. Additionally, the broken v. broken argument never holds any water; if Mega Metagross is in any way broken, it has to be removed from the metagame, even if it is also solely responsible for keeping Fairies in check. Furthermore, Mega Metagross is much more bulky than other offensive Pokemon, and this leaves it unable to be revenge killed from full health by thought-to-be perfect revenge killers such as Landorus-T and Bisharp. Mega Metagross needs to be worn down before the vast majority of Pokemon can revenge kill it, and to top it all off, the majority of these revenge killers are slaughtered by the Agility / Rock Polish set. In terms of survivability, power, and speed, Mega Metagross basically has it all, and what it doesn't have, its team can cover. This overall produces an unenjoyable and stale metagame, and thus Mega Metagross, despite not being objectively broken, should be banned from the tier.

Anti-Ban

Mega Metagross keeps the metagame in balance, and this does not mean anything close to broken checks broken. People are exaggerating its ability to switch into Pokemon, even Fairies, who almost always pack a way to severely cripple it and other Steel-types. It isn't like Mega Metagross is severely inhibiting Fairies' success, as all of them, or rather Diancie, Gardevoir, Clefable, and Sylveon, have means by which they can punish it from switching in (Earth Power, Will-o-Wisp, Flamethrower, Thunder Wave, and Shadow ball). Mega Metagross merely acts as a healthy offensive check to these Pokemon. Additionally, the idea that removing Mega Metagross just for the sake of having one less threat to deal with could be applied to any A+/S ranked threat. We shouldn't set the precedent of banning something that isn't uncompetitive, overly centralizing, or broken; we need to know it's at least one of the three to ban it, and Mega Metagross isn't. Common and effective offensive Pokemon, including Victini, Garchomp, Klefki, Thundurus, Gyarados, ScarfTar, Mega Houndoom, Mega Manectric, and Landorus-T deal with Mega Metagross relatively well, and they are not used solely for this; as seen on the suspect ladder, most if not all retain much of their popularity, especially ScarfTar. They aren't counters by any means, as some even risk being one shotted, but offense has ways to keep it in check. Not to mention, offense doesn't need switch-ins to every threat, or even most threats, as games tend to be won because of offensive pressure and momentum. Furthermore, defensive teams have viable ways to manage Mega Metagross, including bulky Steel-types like Counter Skarmory and Mega Scizor, light and/or specially defensive Water-types like Slowking, Manaphy, and Gyarados, as well as miscellaneous choices like Mandibuzz, Zapdos, and Gourgeist-XL. Overall, Mega Metagross is not broken, uncompetitive, or excessively centralizing, has common offensive and defensive checks and counters that see use with or without it, and acts as a healthy offensive check to common threats such as Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie, and thus should not be banned from the tier.

For people who like bullet points better than paragraphs:

Pro-Ban:
• The metagame is more fun without Metagross than with it.
• Metagross limits creativity in team-building.
• Its removal would give teambuilders one less threat to prepare for, which is ideal in a metagame where there are too many threats for which a team has to prepare.
• It can deal with many of its defensive checks with the proper coverage move, and it can almost always cope with losing one of its other moves thanks to team support.
• Its keeping Fairies in check is irrelevant if it is indeed broken.
• It's too bulky for most offensive Pokemon to revenge kill without previously wearing it down.
• Most standard revenge killers lose to Agility / Rock Polish sets.

Anti-Ban:
• Metagross keeps the current metagame in balance in a non-broken way.
• Fairies are a big threat now, and while they aren't broken, it's nice to have Metagross as an all around good offensive check, but not perfect counter, to them.
• Removing it for the sake of one less threat to deal with is a flawed viewpoint, as that ideology could be applied to any influential Pokemon in the tier.
• It isn't broken, uncompetitive, or overly centralizing.
• There exist offensive checks to it that are still as, or close to as, viable in the metagame without Mega Metagross.
• Defensive checks and counters exist in the plenty, the vast majority of which are still viable in the metagame without Mega Metagross.

The Verdict:

That's up to you! You've likely read most of the posts in this thread, or at least the good ones, and if you're reading this sentence you most likely at least read the bullet points in this post meant to crystallize the debate. If you got reqs, great; vote for whichever metagame you prefer, whichever side by which you're most convinced. If you didn't get reqs, sit back and watch what happens, and don't complain that your voice wasn't heard.

I think that's all! Thanks for the (mostly) tame and logically-based debate, and may the best side win.
 

Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
On second thought:

I've been told by a few users, most on the pro-ban side, that they feel that their side was underrepresented on this page; in their words, there was a recent bandwagon of anti-ban posts without any time for pro-ban people to counter them. Originally, I was just going to let them post their thoughts, but I, with other mods' help, decided that I should reopen the thread for 24 hours so that the pro-ban side can properly rebut recent anti-ban posts, and that anti-ban people can respond to those. This won't happen again, so use the next 24 hours well.
 
Ending up choice locked into earthquake against a flying type, should never happen. (Or a locked electric vs. ground situation) There is no excuse. You should be able to at least deal damage to all switch-ins...
To be fair, many hyper offense teams have mons that can be choice locked into moves with an immunity. Band Talon? Heatran and other (irrelevant) flash fire users can switch in. Scarf Lando-T? Flying types/levitaters say hi. (insert choice locked volt switcher here)? Ground types. Heck, even specs Gengar has Lop/Chansey immune to shadow ball. if you don't like choice items, no one's forcing you to use them, but most good offense teams will have a scarfer, or a band/specs user, which are asking for a resist/immunity to switch in. It doesn't have much to do with viability, and the best predictors won't be stuck in that situation as they'll predict it. You have 3 other moves to deal with possible switch ins. I have no need to post here again (unless someone directs a post at me), so that's me outta here.
 
Just curious - how was the pro-ban side "underrepresented"?

If we're going by the general attitude of one individual page of a 33 page thread (which no one ever should) then I guess I can understand. But the thing is, nearly the entire thread consists of the same statements and arguments that were rehashed on this page. What is unique, from an argumentative standpoint, that warrants the re-opening of this thread?
 
On second thought:

I've been told by a few users, most on the pro-ban side, that they feel that their side was underrepresented on this page; in their words, there was a recent bandwagon of anti-ban posts without any time for pro-ban people to counter them. Originally, I was just going to let them post their thoughts, but I, with other mods' help, decided that I should reopen the thread for 24 hours so that the pro-ban side can properly rebut recent anti-ban posts, and that anti-ban people can respond to those. This won't happen again, so use the next 24 hours well.
That's pretty cool of you guys! I'm still not sure how I feel about this whole deal. On one hand, megagross is crazy good; everyone knows that. his wall breaking power is quite impressive combined with his speed and spectacular bulk. on the other, there's the fact that being a mega has opportunity cost, he has no recovery, and he has some universal counters or checks. do these problems, added to the fact that he's vulnerable to chip damage, make him broken or unhealthy for the meta? would personally like your opinion, as well as others.
 

Aragorn the King

Literally a duck
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Just curious - how was the pro-ban side "underrepresented"?

If we're going by the general attitude of one individual page of a 33 page thread (which no one ever should) then I guess I can understand. But the thing is, nearly the entire thread consists of the same statements and arguments that were rehashed on this page. What is unique, from an argumentative standpoint, that warrants the re-opening of this thread?
It's basically the momentum of the thread. Many people have recently posted in favor of keeping Mega Metagross in the metagame, and some pro-ban people felt as though they never got a chance to respond to these specific arguments.

I see where you're coming from on the rehash part though, and it's why I originally said no to the request to reopen it. But in general it's more fair to both sides if we reopen the thread, so it's what we decided to do.

Just so I make this clear, this isn't necessarily what I think; our decision isn't based in our biases at all. It's merely to be fair.
 
pro-ban side said:
• The metagame is more fun without Metagross than with it.
I don't see how funny can be a metagame where you see Diancie/Altaria + Magnezone builds everywhere, where you see balanced everywhere, where you see fairires everywhere...

pro-ban side said:
• Metagross limits creativity in team-building.
I don't think it's true. You need more than 1 Pokémon to handle Metagross, but you don't use specific Pokémon only to handle Metagross.

pro-ban side said:
• Its removal would give teambuilders one less threat to prepare for, which is ideal in a metagame where there are too many threats for which a team has to prepare.
It seems obvious, yeah. Ban a top tiers and you won't have to prepar for it anymore. There is a lot of threats in the current ORAS OU metagame, but I don't think there too many threats, the metagame is balanced as it is right now.

pro-ban side said:
• It can deal with many of its defensive checks with the proper coverage move, and it can almost always cope with losing one of its other moves thanks to team support.
Yeah, but the same applies to Fragonite, Garchomp, Keldeo, Tyranitar, etc...

pro-ban side said:
• Its keeping Fairies in check is irrelevant if it is indeed broken.
But it's not, and even some poeple in pro-ban side admitted it. Metagross isn't broken.

pro-ban side said:
• It's too bulky for most offensive Pokemon to revenge kill without previously wearing it down.
Might be the best pro-ban side point. Metagross has a good bulk, but you are an offense, you have way to weaken Metagross with Hazards, and if you are playing offense, you are playing offensive Mons.
Also, even if it's nearly impossible for an HO team to switch-in correctly into Metagross, there is an other way, prevent him to come on the field. I illustrated it with a standard core you can use :

I start my build wanting to use the standard Manectric + Lando-T (scarfed) volt Turn core.
I need a lead, Garchomp is pretty good.
I need to put pressure on defogers, Bisharp is the best Pokémon in the metagame to do it, and it's also a decent 1st breaker for balanced builds.

We have 4 Mons and all of them are preventing Metagross to come in safely, and threaten him a lot. And you know what? I didn't even considered it in my builing process.

pro-ban side said:
• Most standard revenge killers lose to Agility / Rock Polish sets.
it's the case for all Pokémon that are sweeping thanks to a boost in speed. They are just rare in ORAS OU. Note that if you opt for that kind of set, you loose coverage.

And again, I would point that RP set only threaten offensive builds (assuming balanced / stall has solid defensive core to deal with it since he has less coverage). And you have way to prevent him from setting up that boost in speed.
 
It's basically the momentum of the thread. -Clone-, CTC, Bluwing, Freeroamer, TheEpicBro, and Agent Gibbs all recently posted in favor of keeping Mega Metagross in the metagame, and some pro-ban people felt as though they never got a chance to respond to these specific arguments.

I see where you're coming from on the rehash part though, and it's why I originally said no to the request to reopen it. But in general it's more fair to both sides if we reopen the thread, so it's what we decided to do.

Just so I make this clear, this isn't necessarily what I think; our decision isn't based in our biases at all. It's merely to be fair.

I totally agree that both sides should be represented fairly, and that each person should have a chance to voice their own opinion.

However, the momentum of the thread has been vacillating consistently for almost the last two weeks. It's not as if every page of the thread has been leaning towards anti-ban before it was closed. Pages 28 and 29 (see Stathakis and Nami's posts) display a similar "momentum" to the one you described in page 34 - except it was pro-ban. Why not stop it there? This thread has been rocking back and forth in its viewpoint like a ship in a storm since page 13 and all of the substantiated arguments have already been revealed, countered, and rebutted. I mean no disrespect at all but stopping the thread at an arbitrary point and then re-opening it only for the same cycle to continue doesn't seem like it's adding anything to the already tired discussion or even the suspect test. I mean I get that you don't want to step on peoples toes but if someone hasn't argued already it's not like they're going to do it now.

My solution: Why not just keep threads like these open until the final decision is made (this way you're not "cutting anyone off")?

AraEdit: Just so people don't think I'm ignoring this question, I responded to astroshagger in a PM. The questions / points brought are all valid and quite good, but the thread should be about whether Mega Metagross should be banned, not how long the thread should be open. Thanks guys :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jukain

!_!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
-Clone- said:
Im not gonna make a huge ass post, because my entire reasoning can be summed up in just a few words: the metagame is not different enough to the point where banning Metagross is something I consider necessary. Once I got past the lower ladder, and started playing players who knew what they were doing, I saw the same trends that I saw with Metagross in the tier. Balance was still the dominant playstyle, with the only notable difference being that Clefable was more prominent. I still saw Lando T. I still saw Slowbro. I still saw Gliscor, Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Scarf TTar. This so called "extreme strain" on teambuilding is really hard to believe when the mons that check gross are still on every team. If Gross made it an absolute necessity to have these mons on a team to check it, yet they are still present in abundance, then I see no reason to ban a mon from the Metagame when its presence isnt a negative one. Am I saying that Gross being in the tier doesnt affect anything? No. Im saying that Gross being in the tier does not affect the meta to the point where I would consider it an unhealthy presence. Therefore, I will vote no ban when its time to vote.
Note: I'm not picking on -Clone- in particular. This response is directed toward basically all of the anti-ban posts on the past few pages. This post summarizes a lot of the things I find incorrect, though. I'll try to avoid rehashing as much as possible.

The sentiment I am getting from this post and other anti-ban posts is that people expect banning Metagross to fix everything wrong with the metagame, when that simply isn't a realistic expectation. I believe most of us can agree that the current metagame is far from ideal; it's unsettled and oversaturated with threats, which make it overall matchup-reliant. With these relatively far-reaching issues, it is unrealistic to expect that one ban is going to be a cure-all. Keeping that in mind, we need somewhere to start in order to make actual progress and not be stuck with a bad metagame. Why do I and others think that Mega Metagross is the best place to start with fixing the metagame? Well, I'll start with the three reasons that a Pokemon can be banned:

1) Broken (ex: Mega Mawile and Greninja)
2) Uncompetitive (ex: Swagger and Baton Pass)
3) Unhealthy effect on the metagame (ex: Aegislash)

Something that's important to understand is that brokenness has a scale and not one particular threshold. Comparisons to previous bans are relevant, but they should only be used as a standard if the particular suspect is actually 'more broken' than that banned Pokemon. CTC's post got a lot of support, but its basis is fallacious in itself along these lines.
CTC said:
WHY R WE BANNING THIS SHIT looooooool its not a fuckin threat outspeeding 90% of the meta w impeccable coverage like ninja, nor is it an unkillable durable setup god like mence/aegi. this shit is moderately fast, moderately bulky, has moderately good coverage, and hits pretty fuckin hard. its in the right place at the center of the meta because it is a gr8 glue and breaker just as its design suggests. why the fuck is this shit considered broke? the fat balance breaker niche that it fulfills is gr8, this way everyone cant just spam gliscor ferro tran slowbro gay ass shit like they have for the past few months brainlessly. FUCK retarded generic fat shit cores that require 0 play to work. fuckit. gross does justice to the meta and balances the offensive shit w the fat shit creating a somewhat diverse concoction. it is just the gen6 version of gen 5 kyub minus the rock weakness. "omg too bulky omg too strong omg typing too good" calm ur shit niggas. free gross fuck the system

The other issue with this post is that it ignores any potential for Metagross's balance breaking presence to be unhealthy. Mega Metagross is not 'the gen6 version of gen 5 kyub minus the rock weakness'. It's far more than that. Its typing combined with its bulk and Speed put it on a new level compared to Kyurem-B, which misses out on outspeeding a significant amount of Pokemon and has a mediocre typing that makes its great bulk much less relevant.

Jumping back to -Clone-'s post, the suspect ladder isn't really representative of the metagame post-Metagross. The suspect ladder is filled with people using easy reqs teams from the Metagross metagame, as most people just want reqs and don't feel like experimenting or building for the new metagame. The only appreciable trend that might be representative of the post-Metagross metagame is the rise of offensive Fairy-types, which will naturally be more effective without Metagross in the tier. Furthermore, a lot of the Pokemon that have been noted as being used for checking Metagross weren't really used for that or effective at that role in general. Ferrothorn, Heatran, Gliscor, Ferrothorn, and Scarftar? The only one of those that actually does well against Metagross is heavily invested physically defensive Gliscor, which comes with a lot of opportunity cost, that being the reason it wasn't used that much in the first place. In fact, Metagross was the main reason physically defensive Gliscor was ever a thing, as without it in the metagame, specially defensive is 100% better. Scarftar can revenge kill it, but it does shoddy job at that due to its inability to even pivot in and inability to KO with Crunch until Metagross is at under 75% HP. The fact that these Pokemon are still common is more of a testament to how good they are because they weren't really Metagross answers in the first place. Also, defensive Landorus-T is only a frequent feature on balance because it can check Metagross once Metagross has Mega Evolved. There's a ton of opportunity cost, even with Metagross in the tier, centered around Landorus-T's inability to check Bisharp and how good Gliscor is. Metagross being gone gives even less reason to use defensive Landorus-T on balance. Sure, it will still be common on more offensively biased balanced teams, bulky offense, and hyper offense, especially with the Choice Scarf set. However, Mega Metagross is the primary motivator for the amount of defensive Landorus-T in the metagame as a whole, as many teams choose to use it over something like Scarf or Earth Plate just because dealing with Metagross is so hard. As far as offense is concerned, Pokemon like Latios, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Altaria, etc are much less pressured without Metagross in the metagame. You can't just take the suspect metagame at face value because it doesn't represent much that is meaningful.

Another reason that the metagame might seem similar is that it is pretty much impossible to adapt to Metagross effectively in the first place. Most of the actual Metagross answers are passive and don't fit well on teams that aren't defensively biased. You might say people are unwilling to adapt, but I'd say that this speaks for the difficulty of handling Mega Metagross in the first place. No matter what spin you put on it, Pokemon like Alomomola, bulky Mega Scizor, Skarmory, physically defensive Gliscor, and SpD Slowbro (I can't believe this has actually been seriously brought up) are not going to be highly effective. Most balanced teams attempt to get by with checks while accepting the poor matchup. How is this healthy? I'll answer that question: it's not. Something that's been said is that Metagross has a reasonable selection of answers, and that requiring elaborate cores to handle it is acceptable. These two points are contradictory because the necessity of these cores stifles teambuilding diversity in the first place, and that is one of the reasons we are seeing a lot of similar-looking teams and cores. With the arguments regarding balance aside, I'll tackle the offense vs Metagross matchup.
Halcyon. said:
T Wave Klefki, Fire Blast Azelf, Mega Manectric, Adamant CB Talon, Mega Alakazam, Sash Mamo, Mega Sharpedo, SR Excadrill, Bulky mega Zard X, Mega Scizor, Specs Raikou, and Thundurus are all options you can take advantage of on hyper offense teams that can do massive damage to/cripple Mega Metagross. This isn't even counting the number of Scarf Pokemon that you apparently want to ignore, despite the fact that Scarf Pokemon are staples on HO teams considering they're the only option besides priority/T Wave that HO teams can deal with sweepers. They are a necessary evil, so to speak. Or are you also in favor of banning Mega Charizard X, Dragonite, and Mega Gyarados? The list of offensive checks nearly doubles adding in Scarf mons. You, as a HO player, should know that that style of team depends on strategically sacking Pokemon OR risk v reward based "predictions" in order to get free switches to set up when faced with offensive threats. You cannot tell me that Mega Metagross is any more difficult to deal with than Mega Lopunny is for Offense. In fact, Fake Out + Scrappy + incredible speed + possibility of Baton Pass for momentum + possibility of substitute makes Mega Lop even MORE of a threat to offense than Mega Metagross. I simply don't buy the fact that Mega Meta is too restrictive for Hyper Offense to deal with it. Just because Italian Offense isn't the best ladder team in the world anymore doesn't mean we should ban a Pokemon to ubers.
The argument in this post isn't practical. TWave Klefki is kind of a Mega Metagross answer in the sense that paralysis isn't exactly nice for it, but you still lose your Klefki while being up against a full health Metagross, with the only difference being that it's paralyzed. You still have to kill it. You still have to pressure it. All of these things are far more easily said than done. Azelf is gone within 5 turns; the only Metagross that is getting hit by Fire Blast is someone attempting to anti-lead Azelf using it, which is a silly strategy. Adamant CB Talonflame and Mega Sharpedo aren't exactly good options; CB Talon, quite frankly, isn't good, and Mega Sharpedo is a niche Pokemon that takes up a Mega slot. Mega Scizor is 2HKOed by Hammer Arm after SR and rather easily checked by Keldeo, which is one of the best Metagross partners in the tier. Bulky Mega Charizard X isn't an option when Landorus-T is the most common Scarfer in the OU tier -- Jolly 184 Spe is crucial for Zard X to sweep in many cases. Plus, Metagross can just run Agility and invalidate pretty much every answer offense has after a boost. We're not talking about Metagross in a vacuum; we're talking about it in the context of a team that can relatively easily account for the few things that cause it problems and the wealth of options and pressure Metagross boasts that cause offense problems. Mega Metagross is arguably more of a threat to offense than Mega Lopunny because it's more difficult to revenge kill and check thanks to its typing, bulk, and power, and has the option of Agility to sweep the entire team. Also, Metagross itself is so good that it limits offensive teambuilding diversity because there's a ton of opportunity cost related to not using it.

This post is long, so to sum it up:

1) Fixing a bad metagame is a multi-step process. Don't expect banning Mega Metagross to be a cure-all, but realize that progress is a positive.

2) Metagross doesn't have to be as banworthy as previously banned Pokemon to be banworthy. Brokenness and banworthiness as a whole exist on a scale and not one set threshold.

3) The suspect ladder isn't fully representative of the post-Metagross metagame by any means because people want reqs, not to experiment in the new metagame and account for new trends. There are far-reaching implications of Metagross's presence that will change the metagame more significantly than has been seen so far.

4) Mega Metagross stifles teambuilding diversity due to forcing teams to run overspecific cores and Pokemon if they want to handle it effectively.

5) The ability of offense to deal with Mega Metagross is being highly overexaggerated. It has a limited set of checks and isn't being used in a vacuum; with partners to deal with these checks, just having them is getting you anywhere.

6) Mega Metagross stifles teambuilding diversity in the sense that there is an extremely high opportunity cost related to not using it. Other Megas and Pokemon in general are held back in viability and overall effectiveness by Mega Metagross's presence in the metagame.
 

FrocoTerra

Banned deucer.
People are opnely admitting that you need to run multiple Pokemon to stop MegaGross. Hello? How is this fair? You need to have more than one teamslot dedicated to stopping this threat? How can this be fair? That is ridiculous. A pokemon bulky enough to live hits from HO and fast and strong enough to destroy balance and stall, which you need to carry two checks for? In what universe is this 'not broken?' 110 Speed, better bulk in every way than Skarmory, and insane offensive stats combined with a Life Orb Boost and the movepool to absolutely abuse it. There is no stat or area in which MegaGross is bad.
 
People are opnely admitting that you need to run multiple Pokemon to stop MegaGross. Hello? How is this fair? You need to have more than one teamslot dedicated to stopping this threat? How can this be fair? That is ridiculous. A pokemon bulky enough to live hits from HO and fast and strong enough to destroy balance and stall, which you need to carry two checks for? In what universe is this 'not broken?' 110 Speed, better bulk in every way than Skarmory, and insane offensive stats combined with a Life Orb Boost and the movepool to absolutely abuse it. There is no stat or area in which MegaGross is bad.
Okay, I don't know about you, but when I build teams I always try and carry two checks to any relevant meta threat: Keldeo, Zard-X, Diancie, heck even a lot of stuff in the B-Ranks. I may not pack 2 hard counters, but I at least make sure to have 2 things that'll kill a threat in a 1v1 scenario. I admit that this is not always possible in this meta given how many threats there are right now, but it's a goal that should be strived for simply because I think it's an unrealistic expectation that 1 mon will stop you from getting curb-stomped by another. Now, I understand Jukain's point that there is a lot of stuff to prep for in this meta, and while I'm not sure I agree, I understand the idea of shaving from the top to reduce the number of said threats to make the goal of carrying multiple checks/counters to everything in the tier more realistic, especially since I do find it hard to find fast checks for Mega Metagross that can also cover the many other fast threats in this meta. However, so long as you aren't being forced to pack crappy checks (think Moltres for Mega Lucario) I don't think being forced to carry 2 checks for a threat is so back-breaking that said threat should be banned on those grounds alone.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top