np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Lol how is this being considered but not Aegislash?

I am happy with this suspect test though. It should prove to be a very interesting addition to OU. 120/120 attacking stats are definitely nothing to laugh at, but I think its defensive potential is even greater. From a stall perspective, I can see it being able to handle things like Charizard-Y and Landorus-I. Also being a Ghost type means it can't be trapped (coz fuck you Gothitelle!) Oh yeah, and it has Defog! Only problem is no recovery outside of Rest :c

Anyone arguing that it's OP, just take a look at all the things it can't handle. Gardevoir, Altaria, Gengar, Diancie, Clefable, Kyurem-B... just to name a few. No, I think Giratina-O will fit right in with the OU metagame.

True, however, Giratina-O has a very wide movepool so it can definitely lay the hurt on those mons. Gardevoir is not going to enjoy Ghost STAB from Giratina-O at all, both Shadow Ball and Shadow Sneak boosted by STAB and Griseous Orb hit hard from it and hurt Mega Garde. Mega Altaria certainly won't enjoy a Will-O-Wisp from Giratina: have fun eating one and see how long it lasts now. Gengar falters to Shadow Sneak with just a little prior damage, while Diancie can fall to repeated Shadow Balls and Earth Powers/EQ's. Clefable (physically defensive) is 2HKOed by Shadow Ball, and Kyu-B will not like taking a Draco Meteor to the face, or even an Outrage.

With all of this in mind, as Sweep stated (will reiterate Sweep's points here) all of you should definitely keep in mind that Giratina-O provides a trait of pretty huge unpredictability. If there's anything that could potentially beat it, Giratina-O most definitely will have a way to prevent it from switching in, whether through a coverage move or via Will-O-Wisp to just cripple them. It can run physical or special sets and has strong STABs on both ends, whether through Outrage or through Draco Meteor, and it has nice coverage stuff like Thunder, Aura Sphere, EQ, etc. to just mess with whatever can beat it, depending on what you want to beat. It also has Dragon Tail so it can phaze switch-ins repeatedly, such as Chansey or Blissey and many other stuff, especially with hazards intact. Will-O-Wisp is also annoying as hell.

Combine this with the fact that Giratina hits pretty hard and is impressively bulky, plus it walls plenty of stuff, so yeah. I'll remain completely neutral for now, since I can definitely see why people would want it to stay and it could have an interesting effect on the metagame. But please guys, remember that the Platinum dragon is definitely a very dangerous and versatile Pokemon.

 

[Chronobreak]

Neither does Life Orb Latios: 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 224-265 (65.6 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
._.

If anything, that just proves it's point, it's no more powerful than a latias

 

[carrilero]

I also have a question. Everyone is saying that Giratina has no recovery outside of Rest but does it not get Pain Split? Does this not count? If so, why do most defensive Rotom-W run it then?

 

[Grim]

I also have a question. Everyone is saying that Giratina has no recovery outside of Rest but does it not get Pain Split? Does this not count? If so, why do most defensive Rotom-W run it then?

Pain Split is indeed recovery, it's just very unreliable. Rotom-W often has it simply because it has a free moveslot anyway.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I also have a question. Everyone is saying that Giratina has no recovery outside of Rest but does it not get Pain Split? Does this not count? If so, why do most defensive Rotom-W run it then?

Pain Split is recovery, but it's not really reliable recovery. It's horribly unreliable and the fact that Rotom-W runs it kind of actually hinders it since Pain Split is actually a very unreliable form of recovery. Things like Mega Banette and Dusknoir are also actually hindered by relying on Pain Split, especially the latter since Pain Split isn't consistent. It can be dealt with by using Sub or by sending in a low HP mon, so it won't always do sufficient healing.

 

[BlazeLatias]

I also have a question. Everyone is saying that Giratina has no recovery outside of Rest but does it not get Pain Split? Does this not count? If so, why do most defensive Rotom-W run it then?

I think it was mentioned once or twice but i think why its being ignored is due to how its more unreliable and gira probably prefers the full recovery plus status removal. Rotom uses it as its a pivot and just want to get a quick heal then switch where gira will be in longer and is not a hit n run mon if im right.

 

[Muk]

Pain Split is also pretty bad with a 150 HP stat.

 

[hey yal]

I also have a question. Everyone is saying that Giratina has no recovery outside of Rest but does it not get Pain Split? Does this not count? If so, why do most defensive Rotom-W run it then?

It's quite unreliable. Your opponent can easily switch out and the g-o user will suffer some health and imo it's quite ez to play around. It's also hard to plan what will happen since you don't always know how much health you're getting back.

Edit:mother of greninjas.

 

[havokchomp123]

People plz don't bring up aegislash in this suspect, that debate is for another day.

Honestly I think that Giratina-O would be a great addition to this tier. It's honestly not as OP as people think it is (that's probably because of it's legendary status). It has some solid counters in OU and it has a slight case of 4MMS and a underwhelming 90 base Speed. so while it can "technically take care of it's counter" it has to pick and choose it's it's counters based on it's moves. It looks like the OU metagame is going to be shaking up if this gets included.

 

[Red Cat]

I really don't like this idea. Yeah, it doesn't get to use an item, but as we have seen with mega evolutions, ridiculous base stats and a good ability are more than enough to compensate for the loss of an item. Giratina-O doesn't even cost you your mega slot. I also don't like the idea of only allowing a Pokemon on the condition that it holds a specific item. Giratina-O also has a fantastic movepool which makes it too powerful for OU.

Edit: I meant that its movepool is one of the reasons that makes it broken along with its base stats. Of course a good movepool alone =/= broken.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

People plz don't bring up aegislash in this suspect, that debate is for another day.

Honestly I think that Giratina-O would be a great addition to this tier. It's honestly not as OP as people think it is (that's probably because of it's legendary status). It has some solid counters in OU and it has a bad case of 4MMS and a underwhelming 90 base Speed. so while it can "technically take care of it's counter" it has to pick and choose it's it's counters based on it's moves. It looks like the OU metagame is going to be shaking up if this gets included.

4MSS, your kidding me right? Your making the same case as what happened with the Greninja suspect and the Mega Metagross suspect to a lesser extent, this thing does not have 4MSS at all.

 

[carrilero]

I really don't like this idea. Yeah, it doesn't get to use an item, but as we have seen with mega evolutions, ridiculous base stats and a good ability are more than enough to compensate for the loss of an item. Giratina-O doesn't even cost you your mega slot. I also don't like the idea of only allowing a Pokemon on the condition that it holds a specific item. Giratina-O also has a fantastic movepool which makes it too powerful for OU.

Just because you don't like the idea, doesn't mean it can't be used. Also, there are plenty other pokemon that have fantastic movepools but it doesn't make them broken.

 

[HeartlessAngel1993]

Like I stated previously, Giratina is not that bad. If it doesn't even have enough offensive power to defeat an RU mon with no Special Investment, and no recovery outside of Rest and Pain Split, and the inability to hold an item, it is no worse than most Pokemon in the Tier, and it's worse than most of the Mega's in the tier, and even in the lower tiers.

 

[Halcyon.]

It's definitely interesting. I'll withhold immediately saying it's broken until after I check out the ladder and build a few teams with it. It seems to fill the same role metagame-wise that I wanted Aegi to fill but checking Landorus and Zard Y instead of the fairies. Still not sure why this was tested before Gene and Aegi but I'm not saying it can't be healthy. Only time will tell. Looking forward to this one.

 

[Hootie]

For those making the comparisons between Aegislash and Giratina-O, I think it's worth noting that unlike Aegislash, Giratina-O doesn't force mindless 50/50s with King's Shield (which were usually in Aegislash's favor) which in itself makes it more manageable. The typing while really good is not as great as Ghost / Steel which makes it have more answers than Aegis. Also so what if it doesn't have hard counters. Look at Hydreigon in BW just as an example which arguably has better coverage. The only reason Hydreigon wasn't deemed broken back then was because of its speed which in Giratina-O's case is even worse. On top of it's speed issue, it cannot run a choice scarf to remedy that issue which leaves it revenged by a lot of offensive Mons. As stated earlier this suspect will only help OU by keeping Pokemon like Megagross, Landorus-I, Keldeo, and so on from centralizing the metagame. At first I was skeptical, but now I actually want to see this happen especially since many people would agree that meta has become stale and this will only make things more interesting.

 

[BlazeLatias]

Hold up. Im all with gira going in ou but lazt time i checked mello has some pretty fantastic sp.def even without a av. (i think you said gira failed to ohko that). A bit off topic but i actualy cant wait to try gira with mega metagross/mega gyrados so im pretty exited.

 

[zachmac]

Like I stated previously, Giratina is not that bad. If it doesn't even have enough offensive power to defeat an RU mon with no Special Investment, and no recovery outside of Rest and Pain Split, and the inability to hold an item, it is no worse than most Pokemon in the Tier, and it's worse than most of the Mega's in the tier, and even in the lower tiers.

And RU pokemon with base 100 HP and 128 special defense.
252 SpA Mewtwo Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Articuno: 226-266 (70.4 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm too rusty in my competitive skills to pick a side in this debate, but I feel like you're using faulty logic here.
The fact that it can't OHKO Meloetta doesn't mean anything.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Like I stated previously, Giratina is not that bad. If it doesn't even have enough offensive power to defeat an RU mon with no Special Investment, and no recovery outside of Rest and Pain Split, and the inability to hold an item, it is no worse than most Pokemon in the Tier, and it's worse than most of the Mega's in the tier, and even in the lower tiers.

Ugh, excuse me, but not being able to OHKO an RU Pokemon doesn't really mean anything in regards to brokenness. If anything, relying on a terrible Pokemon to beat Giratina actually adds on more to its brokenness since you're basically relying on something that is beyond obscure to beat it. A Pokemon is most definitely ridiculous if you're trying to beat it with something in the lower tiers. Besides, its tiering placement in RU is irrelevant since we all know Meloetta is quite the bulky thing. It's definitely not worse than most of the Megas in the tier, it's better than most if not all of them because it's free of opportunity cost and has an extremely huge movepool with great coverage and support options making it a premier threat in OU. Plus, it may not have recovery but it has really nice resistances and is bulky too so it beats a lot of stuff. It's immune to Spikes, Sticky Web, and Toxic Spikes too.

Plus I'm pretty certain physical Gira-O can beat Meloetta. Don't forget you can most definitely run a physical set with Outrage!

Again, I don't have an opinion just yet and I'm neutral. I just wanted to point out how ludicrous these points of yours are.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Like I stated previously, Giratina is not that bad. If it doesn't even have enough offensive power to defeat an RU mon with no Special Investment, and no recovery outside of Rest and Pain Split, and the inability to hold an item, it is no worse than most Pokemon in the Tier, and it's worse than most of the Mega's in the tier, and even in the lower tiers.

"The inability to defeat an RU mon", then lets unban Kyogre since Gastrodon completely destroys it, lets not use that logic please, as 1: Usage =/= Viability and 2: Ubers aren't going to be able to defeat everything
"No Recovery" not to much of a problem with titanic base 150/100/100 defenses, and that's really all its going to need is what you mentioned
"Inability to hold an item" That doesn't make it any less broken, let's unban Mega Mawile since it's unable to hold an item, Gritseous Orb is pretty much a mega stone combined with a type boosting item, its fine without one

 

[havokchomp123]

4MSS, your kidding me right? Your making the same case as what happened with the Greninja suspect and the Mega Metagross suspect to a lesser extent, this thing does not have 4MSS at all.

Ok i should probably elaborate here on my opinion. On the offensive set, it doesn't have that bad of a 4MMS, as it can do a very good job of being a wall breaker. But on the rest talk set, it's a little bit different. For the Defog set, Giratina needs rest for recovery, defog, shadow force, and will-o-wisp meaning it does miss out on sleep talk. Though this really isn't a big deal for it's defog set. On the Calm mind set, It needs rest and rest talk as well as calm mind, meaning it can't have shadow ball and will-o-wisp, meaning it misses out on being able to cripple physical attackers. That's why I don't think rest talk on Giratina is that great of a set, but that's just me.

 

[HeartlessAngel1993]

Ok, then how about sturggling and failing to defeat Volcarona? It just doesn't have enough offensive Power I feel to be an offensive threat. I've been testing it all day, and the only thing it has suceeded in OHKOing is a Mega Loppuny. Seriously. And Like I said, it feels like a horrible Mega Pokemon. It is no where near close the power of Kyogre, aor Mega Mawile.

 

[Aberforth]

No where near close to the power of kyogre? That thing is the hardest hitter in the game outside of glalie's mega using explosion o.0. And even then kyogre beats it with specs.

I'm going to make a full post later (maybe about 3 days later and see if the thread remains in this state by then), but comparing it to the power of the two most powerful mons physically and specially in the game is a bad place to start, surely.

 

[HeartlessAngel1993]

No where near close to the power of kyogre? That thing is the hardest hitter in the game outside of glalie's mega using explosion o.0. And even then kyogre beats it with specs.

I'm going to make a full post later, but comparing it to the power of the two most powerful mons physically and specially in the game is a bad place to start, surely.

Base 120 Special Attack to Base 150 Special Attack. And Kyogre can be Scarfed or Specs. Giratina has neither of those options. Also, I wasn't the one who first mentioned Mega Mawile, so don't look at me.

 

[AM]

Ok, then how about sturggling and failing to defeat Volcarona? It just doesn't have enough offensive Power I feel to be an offensive threat. I've been testing it all day, and the only thing it has suceeded in OHKOing is a Mega Loppuny. Seriously. And Like I said, it feels like a horrible Mega Pokemon. It is no where near close the power of Kyogre, aor Mega Mawile.

180 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Force vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 298-352 (88.9 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO?_?

I mean Idk what spread you're running and granted this was just ripped off calc with lame spreads but I think failing to defeat Volcarona is an understatement.

 

[Gary]

Like I stated previously, Giratina is not that bad. If it doesn't even have enough offensive power to defeat an RU mon with no Special Investment, and no recovery outside of Rest and Pain Split, and the inability to hold an item, it is no worse than most Pokemon in the Tier, and it's worse than most of the Mega's in the tier, and even in the lower tiers.

Lol saying something isn't broken because it can't beat a lower tiered Pokemon is one of the most ignorant arguments I've ever seen. Talonflame is completely walled by Regirock, an NU Pokemon, but does that make it bad? Of course not, because Regirock is very subpar outside of walling a few physical attackers. Mantine is NU, previously PU, and it hard walls two of the most dominant Pokemon in the metagame (Keldeo and Landorus) but regardless of that, Landorus is still a stupid piece of shit and Mantine sucks in almost every other situation.

The fact that people are already having to resort using an ass Pokemon such as AV Melo to beat Giratina-O already proves how much of an insane impact Giratina will have on team building.

Ok, then how about sturggling and failing to defeat Volcarona? It just doesn't have enough offensive Power I feel to be an offensive threat. I've been testing it all day, and the only thing it has suceeded in OHKOing is a Mega Loppuny. Seriously. And Like I said, it feels like a horrible Mega Pokemon. It is no where near close the power of Kyogre, aor Mega Mawile.

"All day" the ladder just came out like barely a few hours ago and you already act like you're some expert on it. The meta has had no time to develop. Also how the fuck does it lose to Volc? It resits both of its STAB moves and Volc just crumbles Vs Shadow Force variants. Why does a Pokemon have to OHKO everything in order to be broken? What makes Giratina-O so ridic isn't its power, but its combination of insane bulk, versatility, and resistances. It checks like 50% of the tier all by itself and pressures the ever living fuck out you unless you bring a hard counter to it, which not much exist.

If you think a Pokemon needs to be as strong as Mega Mawile or Primal Kyogre in order to be broken, then you need to seriously consider your outlook on how you go about banning shit. A perfect example of a Pokemon that is broken as ever living fuck but honestly doesn't have the greatest offenses is Arceus, but it's heavily made up for in its massive bulk, Speed, versatility, and movepool. Sound familiar? Still though 120/120 offenses is by no means terrible, especially when its STAB moves are boosted by 20% on top of that.