np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Wandering Ghosts [Aegislash remains in Ubers]

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First of all, the "unviable" SD set you are referring to is sneak dance, and LO 4 attacks actually allows Aegi to get around a lot of its common counters. Aegi can beat every single one of the mons that you listed with a perfectly viable move, in fact, let's calc this.
Yes Aegi can beat every mon with a move. No they are not "viable" in any sense. Like the example used above, a specs TTar can beat a Hippodown. If an Aegi move was "Viable" like you claim, the usage stats would back them up. Let's see:

VS Mandi
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 306-362 (72.3 - 85.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 134-158 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Moves | | King's Shield 84.868% | | Shadow Ball 77.948% | | Shadow Sneak 67.339% | | Sacred Sword 47.807% | | Flash Cannon 38.414% | | Iron Head 19.255% | | Swords Dance 17.251% | | Substitute 15.312% | | Toxic 11.571% | | Pursuit 11.014% | | Other 9.221%

At best, usage for Head Smash is less than then 10%. I'll be generous and say 5%. This is not "viable".

VS SpD Gliscor
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 146-174 (45 - 53.7%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO

Moves | | King's Shield 84.868% | | Shadow Ball 77.948% | | Shadow Sneak 67.339% | | Sacred Sword 47.807% | | Flash Cannon 38.414% | | Iron Head 19.255% | | Swords Dance 17.251% | | Substitute 15.312% | | Toxic 11.571% | | Pursuit 11.014% | | Other 9.221%

At best, usage for HP Ice is less than 10%. 4 LO Aegi is ~15%. So probably around 5-6%. This is still not "viable".

VS M-Sableye
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 255-302 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Blade: 264-312 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So not only does Aegi have to set up SD against MSableye, the opponent has to get SR up against Magic Bounce for your calcs to be correct. Should I included the 17% usage on SD on Aegi?

VS Klefki
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 165-195 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 56-68 (17.2 - 20.9%) -- possible 5HKO

Aegi can take super effective hits because of its sheer bulk and fire back with powerful coverage or STAB moves, being able to beat every single one of its "counters" 1v1 with one of its many viable sets.
I was moreso using Klefki as an example as to it can scout for moves. Also Klefki has prankster and carries T-Wave and sometimes Light Screen. It's a 50/50 on whether or not it decides to Foul Play or cripple it with TWave.
 

MZ

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ok. aegi has no counters, ban it and case closed. next, lets ban hydreigon. it has fire/grass/electric/water/ghost/dark/ground resistances, can switch-in easily and HAS NO COUNTERS!!

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 380-452 (107.9 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 442-520 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 405-477 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hydreigon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 670-790 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 456-540 (118.4 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 321-378 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

how is a mon that can get so many free turns and 2HKO literally every pokemon ever even allowed?
We're not trying to say Aegis has no counters, it was just a massive backlash at the "most of these sets are unviable" stupid shit being posted. The fact that it has no counters doesn't make it broken necessarily, it's just a good reason to use some sets that were somehow argued to be unviable.
 
ok. aegi has no counters, ban it and case closed. next, lets ban hydreigon. it has fire/grass/electric/water/ghost/dark/ground resistances, can switch-in easily and HAS NO COUNTERS!!

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 380-452 (107.9 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 442-520 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 405-477 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hydreigon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 670-790 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 456-540 (118.4 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 321-378 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

how is a mon that can get so many free turns and 2HKO literally every pokemon ever even allowed?
56 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 125-147 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 66.3% chance to 3HKO
Yeah this isn't true and probably isn't relevant seeing the pokemon being suspected is Aegislash not hydreigon suspect.
 
ok. aegi has no counters, ban it and case closed. next, lets ban hydreigon. it has fire/grass/electric/water/ghost/dark/ground resistances, can switch-in easily and HAS NO COUNTERS!!

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 380-452 (107.9 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 442-520 (109.6 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 405-477 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hydreigon Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 670-790 (102.7 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 456-540 (118.4 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 321-378 (105.9 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

how is a mon that can get so many free turns and 2HKO literally every pokemon ever even allowed?
The issue isn't even a lack of counters. The issue is that Aegislash can very easily exploit the turns he gets in even if the opponent is carrying a check. But I'll run with your (obviously sarcastic) Hydreigon comparison to show that having a lack of counters isn't the only thing contributing to Aegislash's problem. Aegislash is usually going to run HP given it's low speed tier, whereas Hydreigon's speed is high (if awkward) enough to warrant investing in his offenses and speed over bulk.

252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 76-91 (23.4 - 28%) -- 89.5% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 60-71 (18.4 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO

Aegislash is only taking this marginally worse than Hydreigon, when he's neutral and the Hydra is not.
(I removed Aegislash's Steel Typing since the two don't share any neutralities)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 150-177 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 232-274 (71.3 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even assuming Aegislash has to take 2 hits to Hydreigon's one, Aegislash would stand a better chance at winning against a neutral attacker because he has immense natural bulk even before touching on his plethora of resistances. Hydreigon runs into trouble with offense where he's going to be facing faster offensive threats with the sheer power to break him neutrally.

Handling Aegislash without a sac entails
- Being able to survive a Shadow Ball at least
- Being able to OHKO Shield Form Aegislash in case he's coming in to check you
- Having a teammate that can provide a switch if you can't survive a hit (meaning they have to)

Even on offense, OHKOing a max HP 60/150/150 mon with 13 resistances/immunities is a tall order, especially when his entry means something is eating a +Nature base 150 stat's STAB Shadow Ball. Neither Aegislash nor Hydreigon have definitive counters, but Aegislash Checks/counters significantly more Pokemon, meaning being prepared for him to enter the field is a much more pressing issue since those Pokemon he checks/counters compared to Hydreigon are opportunities to enter that in turn require you to now answer Aegislash.

Aegislash is easy to get in, hard to get out (without him doing work of some sort).
Hydreigon is hard to get in, hard to get out.

I fully acknowledge your comparison was sarcasm to mock us for banning Aegislash on the claim of no counters. My response was a serious analogy using that sarcastic example to exemplify why Aegislash has no counters and/or why not having them is a problem.
 
56 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 125-147 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- 66.3% chance to 3HKO
Yeah this isn't true and probably isn't relevant seeing the pokemon being suspected is Aegislash not hydreigon suspect.
no, man, it might run cb thunder fang for your azumarill xD
252+ Atk Choice Band Hydreigon Thunder Fang vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 242-286 (60.3 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

We're not trying to say Aegis has no counters, it was just a massive backlash at the "most of these sets are unviable" stupid shit being posted. The fact that it has no counters doesn't make it broken necessarily, it's just a good reason to use some sets that were somehow argued to be unviable.
as far as this thread is concerned, a lot of pro-ban arguments have been based on "aegislash forces you to run counters for it, but it cannot really be countered because it might use hp ice, sd head smash, etc", which is very different from what actually happens in practice. in reality, most good aegislash sets will have king's shield and shadow ball, because that is what makes it broken: the ability to spam a move that's really hard to counter, while being impossible to trap (ghost typing means it can't be trapped by arena trap/magnet pull, pursuitters are made useless by king's shield and even bisharp has to win a 50/50 between knock off and pursuit to kill it). aegi isn't broken because it might run a random sd + head smash set for your mandibuzz; if it's doing that you just gotta send your hippowdon to turn that aegislash into an essentially useless mon. "oh but you're having to use 2 mons solely to counter aegi!" saying that is actually ignoring the great defensive synergy between mandibuzz and hippowdon. you can argue subtoxic beats those 2, but since they're usually ran with cleric support...
 
I got reqs with adamant Head Smash Aegislash. If I'm not a big name player and that won't convince you of anything, Draeden passed me the set. Are we gonna throw out something perfectly viable just because you've suddenly decided it's not good? You don't just lose out to all the other pokes that Aegislash threatens, you're deciding what you want to hit and what you don't want to hit. Aegislash doesn't suddenly become not this amazing blanket check because we haven't run the set that you decided is viable.
You don't have to convince me of anything based on how well you play, I'm only concerned with how strong an argument is. But you're using anecdotal evidence to argue that Head Smash Aegislash is viable because you got reqs with it. This is equivalent to me arguing that Aegi shouldn't be banned because I was able to get reqs without using Aegi or having any real problems facing it. Just because you got reqs with HS Aegi doesn't make it viable. Maybe you played terrible opponents. Maybe you had to grind out all your games. Neither of us know. The difference is that your argument is based on a single person's spective. Mine is based on usage and facts, which is necessary in evaluating viability.


Except a lot of very good players that aren't just randomly shouting "BAN TALONFLAME! BAN EXCADRILL!" want it banned. There's good and there's broken, and Aegislash is certainly at least arguable banworthy, even you cant deny that.
I agree, there are definitely arguments against unbanning Aegislash. However, I believe the pros outweigh the cons and unbanning it, while it won't fix the meta, is definitely a step in the right direction.


Actually, he said slow stance dance is bad and fast SD is good. Which I don't think anybody has been denying (you may think SD is worse than other Aegis sets, but it's not a straight up bad set that you just wouldnt run ever).
Regardless, SD Aegi isn't as viable as the Crumbler set. The 17% usage backs up my claim. Also Aegi needs to actually get an SD off and can still get burned or outspeed by a variety of pokes that it usually counters (Willo Mew, Willo Rotom, Willo Garde, Scald Psychics like Starmie and Slowbro, Heatwave Zapdos, etc).


Honestly wanted to stop here since this was so ridiculous. The point of 4 attacks LO is that you're an amazing blanket check that also lacks switchins. You normally assume that Aegislash won't have every move to be threatening, but this one will. Plus, people will still be afraid of King's Shield. Again, if you're just gonna dismiss sets as being bad then of course your argument will sound better.
4LO lacks viability because the person using it still knows he doesn't have KS. It's easy to say 4LO is strong as an outside perspective because it gives Aegi a variety of moves to counter every poke. If you actually use 4LO in game vs someone, it's much harder. You need to predict and it can get very risky. People will still be afraid of KS sure, but you'll also be afraid because you don't have it. There's risk on both sides, but I'd argue there's much bigger risk on you losing Aegi for no reason.

Ah, let me prepare for just the crumbler and get my ass handed to me when I encounter a different set that, despite your claims, is both used and viable. Sounds like a good plan man, thanks for that.
Prepare for Crumbler and work around the other sets (which consist of less than 20% of the Aegis based on usage). There's always going to be something your team isn't prepared for. Stop acting like preparing for crumbler Aegi doesn't give you an edge against the other sets. It does, and you can work around them.
 
I said fast Swords Dance, ergo 252 Att/252 Spe Jolly nature, SD + 3 Attacks. Stance Dance is the subpar set consisting of SD/KS/2 other attacks, which sucks because it lacks coverage. SD + 3 Attacks is a late game cleaner/sweeper that works because Aegi's bulk affords him a lot of set-up chances and lets him clean weakened teams with +2/+4 Priority and hard hitting options for bulky walls left.

4 Attack LO isn't particularly hindered by the lack of King's Shield because a typical sequence of events would be:
- Aegis enters
- Opponent switches, Aegislash attacks
- Aegislash leaves, since they probably wanted to bring in something bulky to tank the Shadow Ball

Aegislash got off a LO boosted STAB Shadow ball in that scenario, and arguably is better off leaving rather than putting up with a prediction gambit KS would entail for him anyway. Like a typical wallbreaker, his purpose is to fire off a strong attack or 2 and escape before retaliation. Not sure why you highlighted "Physical Check". If you mean checks to Physical Aegislash, LO 4 Attacks is usually mixed. Aegislash is also just very capable of wearing out his checks because he exhibits a good deal of pressure on the remaining team members.
Aegislash can be a decent revenge killer but you'd be doing yourself a disservice by making it one. There are plenty of revenge killers in the game (M-Lop, Lando-I, MAlt, etc) that do a much better job than Aegislash does. Even if aegi is fast Dance, it's still losing to a variety of pokes it would otherwise beat, such a willowispers (Mew, Rotom, Garde), taunters (Gyara, Talonflame), and scalders.

Also in your scenario you ignore the fact that constantly switching allows hazards like SR and spikes to ruin your opponent. 4LO isn't viable for many reasons, this being one of them. If I'm switching something into Aegi, it's probably something that can tank it + heal off the damage, or tank/check it and deal a move that Aegi or a switchin you try to make cant deal with (i.e knock off).


Usage does not equate to viability. Just because Aegislash only has Head Smash 5% of the time doesn't make him any less effective that 5% when I do run into him and lose Mandibuzz. Hippowdon, until recently, was UU by usage but A by viability. Did that low usage mean I didn't have to worry about being able to beat Hippowdon because despite presenting a threat i wouldn't see him often? Of course not.

Aegislash threatens a lot of Pokemon on the basis of his STAB Shadow ball alone, which virtually every set bar SD + 3 Attacks is going to carry. He can threaten some other slightly more specific things with other move options, but Aegislash gets plenty of Pokemon by virtue of his typing, high natural bulk, and obscene power relative to his resilience.

And while I concede to not having Reqs, I played the XY Aegislash meta, I still played around on the suspect ladder, and these are factors that I noticed consistently both times and that even high level players who made Reqs have run across.
Usage =/= viability, but usage is a strong indicator for viability. In fact, it's the strongest indicator we have. The fact that Aegi runs HS ~5% does mean that many people don't find it viable enough to run at all. Are we really going to ban something because of that one time you lost to an HS Aegi. It will rarely, if ever happen.

Also your Hippodown argument defeats itself. "Hippodown was UU but A by viability." That's why it advanced and went OU. Head Smash usage isn't increasing at all, and probably never will.
 
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fyourblog question: where did you get those usage stats from? Aegi has not been a part of the meta for about 9 months now, so I think it's a tad early to start making sweeping judgements on a set's viability based on usage. You are free to argue that aegi is not broken, but I wouldn't discount perfectly viable sets just because they wern't used much whenever those stats were taken.

This has probably been beaten to death by now, but the problem is that Aegislash can beat all of the answers to SD Aegi with another set, so one mon may switch in fearing one set when it ends up losing to another. Mandi Switches into a set that looks like crumbler (non wp of course) and then it can get bopped by head smash because it is just an AoA set bluffing Crumbler, Clef can switch into "sub toxic" and get smashed by flash cannon or iron head. The list of possibilities is endless and just how impossible it is to counter Aegi is just plain stupid to me.
Here's the thing, there are mons that can counter every aegi set except SD. If you can counter all non-SD sets and pack a solid SD aegi counter, then you have aegi countered every time, just swap in the non-SD counter when aegi comes in, and if he tries to SD in your face, swap to your SD counter.

It's worth noting that if mandi survives the head smash on the switch, it can actually stall it out with roost spam. So mandi can actually beat SD sets with full defense investment(barring SR). Mixed lure sets also fail to break mandi.

4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 278-330 (65.7 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 330-390 (78 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 32-39 (7.5 - 9.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
 
Just a note, LO mixed Aegislash can run Head Smash for Mandibuzz even without SD and win with rocks
4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 307-361 (72.5 - 85.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Which is fairly possible considering Aegislash spinblocks, beats most other defoggers, and Mandibuzz is a Defogger herself.

So Head Smash beats Mandibuzz, not SD + Head Smash explicitly.

Also, Hippowdon really needs to be healthy to check Aegislash, considering it's one of the few things Aegislash still outspeeds with a Quiet nature
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 181-214 (43 - 50.9%) -- 4.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Hippowdon with around 10% prior damage is taking a risk at that point, and this is itemless.

Mandibuzz and Hippowdon's synergy also leaves a serious hole for Special Ice Attacks, which is an issue because some Aegislash run HP Ice for Gliscor
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 182-216 (43.3 - 51.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Or by just running a good Special Attacking partner with Ice coverage, like this guy
252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 161-190 (38 - 44.9%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 285-335 (67.8 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As noted, the only things most Aegislash sets outright need are King's Shield and Shadow ball, so freeing a moveslot for one or even both of those is still possible.

Clerics can cure off the SubToxic's status, but Clerics tend to sink momentum even by Stall standards, and giving momentum to Aegislash is a huge issue in and of itself.

no, man, it might run cb thunder fang for your azumarill xD
"oh but you're having to use 2 mons solely to counter aegi!" saying that is actually ignoring the great defensive synergy between mandibuzz and hippowdon. you can argue subtoxic beats those 2, but since they're usually ran with cleric support...
So you're running 2 decisively defensive Pokemon to counter Aegislash, plus a Cleric if you really want to beat SubToxic to. I'd personally think needing HALF OF MY TEAM to cover one Pokemon primarily might just seem a bit excessive, especially when covering that mon is locking me into Defensive Balance/Stall because of their playstyle.

Regardless, SD Aegi isn't as viable as the Crumbler set. The 17% usage backs up my claim. Also Aegi needs to actually get an SD off and can still get burned or outspeed by a variety of pokes that it usually counters (Willo Mew, Willo Rotom, Willo Garde, Scald Psychics like Starmie and Slowbro, Heatwave Zapdos, etc).
The SD set is less common than the Crumbler set maybe, but not sure I'd call it less viable. SD + 3 attacks does have a more lategame role, and while not necessarily less effective, it's not as linear or easy to use as Crumbler, so people who are spamming the Ladder with HO to get Reqs will probably use Crumbler more because it's not complicated in how you employ it for a team.

4LO lacks viability because the person using it still knows he doesn't have KS. It's easy to say 4LO is strong as an outside perspective because it gives Aegi a variety of moves to counter every poke. If you actually use 4LO in game vs someone, it's much harder. You need to predict and it can get very risky. People will still be afraid of KS sure, but you'll also be afraid because you don't have it. There's risk on both sides, but I'd argue there's much bigger risk on you losing Aegi for no reason.
I can make the opposite argument that the opponent not knowing about a lack of KS still can work in Aegislash's favor. Say the opponent makes a move on the assumption you do have King's Shield, like launching a Physical attack against Blade forme. Why do they immediately know "he has no King's Shield" rather than "he didn't expect me to call a King's Shield bluff." The opponent is still predicting as if you have King's Shield until you unveil all 4 attacks. The Aegislash user is playing prediction still, but he only has to worry about being prepared for either "the King's Shield reaction" and the "non-KS" reaction from the opponent, so they have a much smaller number of options to weigh.

Prepare for Crumbler and work around the other sets (which consist of less than 20% of the Aegis based on usage). There's always going to be something your team isn't prepared for. Stop acting like preparing for crumbler Aegi doesn't give you an edge against the other sets. It does, and you can work around them.
Preparing for Crumbler doesn't give you an edge over the other sets because many of those other sets are specifically meant to let Aegislash get around answers to the Crumbler set. SubToxic was created specifically because Aegislash retained his powerful Shadow Balls and could still get around things like Mandibuzz and Chesnaught, the common answers to Crumbler. Being prepared for Crumbler doesn't make me prepared for SubToxic: worst case scenario, it makes me weak to SubToxic.

Aegislash can be a decent revenge killer but you'd be doing yourself a disservice by making it one. There are plenty of revenge killers in the game (M-Lop, Lando-I, MAlt, etc) that do a much better job than Aegislash does. Even if aegi is fast Dance, it's still losing to a variety of pokes it would otherwise beat, such a willowispers (Mew, Rotom, Garde), taunters (Gyara, Talonflame), and scalders.

Also in your scenario you ignore the fact that constantly switching allows hazards like SR and spikes to ruin your opponent. 4LO isn't viable for many reasons, this being one of them. If I'm switching something into Aegi, it's probably something that can tank it + heal off the damage, or tank/check it and deal a move that Aegi not a switchin you try to make can deal with (i.e knock off).
Fast SD Aegislash is not a Revenge Killer anyway. It's a late game cleaner, so that's the role you need to find competition for if you want to convince me it's not worth using in that role.

Late game cleaner also entails a number of things eliminated or weakened. Of your WoW users, Rotom-W is prone to being worn down as a pivot with no recovery, I legitimately don't remember where Mew was in the last Aegislash meta, and Gardevoir is not usually going to run WoW since losing Focus Blast leaves it beaten by Heatran, but dropping Shadow Ball leaves it beaten easy by any other of the "more viable" Aegislash sets like Crumbler.

How many mons are able to stomach a LO Base 150 Mon's neutral (at best) STAB attack? Bisharp is the only Knock Off user that can use Pursuit as well, so Aegislash doesn't fear any other user too heavily. Because in a lot of cases Knock Off can be used to switch in your Mega from any other users of the move such as:
Gyarados
-1 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 70-83 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Zard-X or Y
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 106-125 (35.6 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Scizor
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 87-103 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 64.2% chance to 3HKO

Venusaur
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Venusaur: 102-120 (28.4 - 33.4%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO

As well as other mons that take the move well such as
- Poisoned Gliscor
- Keldeo
- Klefki

to name a few.

And the mon has to be able to tank the hit, heal itself, and make sure you still get momentum back from whatever switches in to take Aegislash's place.

Usange =/= viability, but usage is a strong indicator for viability. In fact, it's the strongest indicator we have. The fact that Aegi runs HS ~5% does mean that many people don't find it viable enough to run at all. Are we really going to ban something because of that one time you lost to an HS Aegi. It will rarely, if ever happen.

Also your Hippodown argument defeats itself. "Hippodown was UU but A by viability." That's why it advanced and went OU. Head Smash usage isn't increasing at all, and probably never will.
My Hippowdon argument was made with the premise that he was A ranks for almost 15 months, but only just moved up to OU proper THIS month. And Head Smash is a niche option, but it's a niche option that gets the results it's intended to when they run it. And besides that, we have had one month for a sample size for the time Aegislash has been back in OU. Usage does not indicate viability as strongly as you entail because despite Hippowdon being a threat everyone agreed was viable in the metagame, he took a long time for his usage to reflect that. Head Smash is a niche option, and while a noteworthy niche, by nature that means it's not going to find use a huge number of Aegislash's sets.

We're not banning it over the one time someone lost to HS Aegislash. HS is just another asset that, while not as heavily, still warrants being weighed in preparing for Aegislash as a Pokemon. And the sum of Aegislash's assets make it a burdensome Pokemon to prepare a team for.



If you want to convince me otherwise, you need to explain to me what factors in the metagame make Aegislash ineffective in those roles and makes his remaining sets manageable without being a significant constraint on teambuilding.

Here's the thing, there are mons that can counter every aegi set except SD. If you can counter all non-SD sets and pack a solid SD aegi counter, then you have aegi countered every time, just swap in the non-SD counter when aegi comes in, and if he tries to SD in your face, swap to your SD counter.

It's worth noting that if mandi survives the head smash on the switch, it can actually stall it out with roost spam. So mandi can actually beat SD sets with full defense investment(barring SR). Mixed lure sets also fail to break mandi.

4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 278-330 (65.7 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 330-390 (78 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 32-39 (7.5 - 9.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
That's still 2 slots just to prepare for Aegislash itself to be fair, even if that does cover the sword. The SD counter then has to be kept healthy until it actually boosts (which by nature of that set tends to be late game when things are worn down by teammates or hazards).

And Mandibuzz not having prior damage or hazard damage, while possible, is not as likely to pan out in practice since that either also entails Mandibuzz having never taken damage before Aegislash came out with Head Smash. Shadow ball, while tanked, still can shave that health down over time since Mandibuzz becomes exploitable by Roosting, and Aegislash can still carry Flash Cannon
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Mandibuzz: 108-127 (25.5 - 30%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Mandibuzz: 216-255 (51 - 60.2%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This also makes Mandibuzz pressured to stay at high health if it checks anything else on the team. And avoiding hazard damage means Mandibuzz isn't going to work well as a Defogger.
4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 278-330 (65.7 - 78%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
4 Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 278-330 (65.7 - 78%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (at 90% pre-SR damage)

And even then, is running one of the small pool of checks really a sign of a healthy metagame around Aegislash? Kangaskhan strong-armed Tank Chomp-esque sets, Sableye and RH Ferrothorns onto teams, Genesect and Mawile pushed a lot of Heatran usage. Aegislash is obviously not anywhere near this level of absurdity, but if the effect of this centralization is needing two teamslots with very specific Pokemon to be considered adequately prepared for Aegislash, I think that's an unhealthy alternative to the match-up issue Aegislash is meant to mitigate.
 

MZ

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I'm definitely on the banside (not by much though, if there had been more good discussion here I might have changed) but can we not argue Aegislash vs stall? It's just not going to break through a solid core like Mandibuzz plus Hippowdon plus cleric. It does a much better job vs offense and balance where they cant run these counters and are solidly blanket checked etc etc
 
Aegi forces 50 50s which is annoying. Aegi will push a large portion of psychic types that made their way back to ou down to uu, which will create less diversity. it will force physical sweepers to run eq that normally don't like running it. Kings shield causes a drop and recoil damage with mega lopunny's hjk, which is stupid. it severely restricts my teambuilding and makes the game much less enjoyable for me. you can obviously make a team with answers to it but that doesn't mean it isn't broken
 
fyourblog question: where did you get those usage stats from? Aegi has not been a part of the meta for about 9 months now, so I think it's a tad early to start making sweeping judgements on a set's viability based on usage. You are free to argue that aegi is not broken, but I wouldn't discount perfectly viable sets just because they wern't used much whenever those stats were taken.
These are the usage stats taken from the OU suspect in which Aegi was the #1 holder in usage at 37%. These stats are fine and an indicator of the meta we would likely see if Aegi was unbanned. If you are trying to argue that 2 weeks is not nearly enough time to determine if these stats are correct, especially with the large volume of games being played everyday over these two weeks, you'd pretty much have to dismiss a lot of statistical analysis theory.
 
These are the usage stats taken from the OU suspect in which Aegi was the #1 holder in usage at 37%. These stats are fine and an indicator of the meta we would likely see if Aegi was unbanned. If you are trying to argue that 2 weeks is not nearly enough time to determine if these stats are correct, especially with the large volume of games being played everyday over these two weeks, you'd pretty much have to dismiss a lot of statistical analysis theory.
Well most of it is new toy syndrome, but I realistically expect a 25% with a cancerous 40% Landorus I and mandibuzz going back into OU.

We should see the top 10 support oriented pokemon to identify the trends in my opinion and get a better overview of its impact rather than a single pokemon usage.
 
pika pal I concede that it takes two teamslots to adequately prepare for aegislash. Good news is that one can find aegi checks (as I have) that fit a wide variety of playstyles and are fairly strong pokemon in their own right. That being said, I recognize that while surprisingly versatile, the pool of strong aegi checks are still limited and that aegislash will introduce a significant amount of overcentralization. If you believe that this amount of overcentralization is unaccpetable, by all means vote ban. If not, vote no ban. I'm really not here to try to tell people to vote one way or the other, I'm just trying to inform the debate and break a few of the more obnoxious cycles I've been reading over the past 30 pages.

These are the usage stats taken from the OU suspect in which Aegi was the #1 holder in usage at 37%. These stats are fine and an indicator of the meta we would likely see if Aegi was unbanned. If you are trying to argue that 2 weeks is not nearly enough time to determine if these stats are correct, especially with the large volume of games being played everyday over these two weeks, you'd pretty much have to dismiss a lot of statistical analysis theory.
First off, I legitimately didn't know where the stats came from, which is why I asked. Stats from the suspect ladder are indeed better then stats from the XY meta, but they are not perfect. Raw statistics and viability alone really aren't enough to adequately explain the behavioral trends we have seen in the suspect. Consider the following:

1. A solid portion of the players on the ladder right now are doing so to gain COIL for this very suspect. COIL, as you probably know, is directly proportional to your w/l ratio and the number of games you have played on the ladder. This system inherently incentivizes playing games quickly, which favors faster playstyles like HO. Note, I'm not saying HO is the only thing on the ladder, I'm just saying we should expect a statistically significant bias towards HO due to the nature of a suspect test and that we should take that into consideration when analyzing your usage statistics.

2. An additional requirement that's new to this particular suspect test is the requirement that players must maintain a 2-1 W/L ratio. I claim that this new requirement encourages players to stick with "safe" teams that have already been well tested, as any experimentation will likely lead to a temporary decrease in win rate, potentially jeopardizing a testers chances to obtain reqs. Sure they can start over on a new alt, but there's a hefty penalty to be paid for starting over because that's how COIL works. This almost certainly creates a bias towards "safe" aegislash sets like Crumbler.

With these two very real biases taken into account, I argue that in this case usage stats gravely undersell how strong non-crumbler aegi sets are.

And yes, I am quite well versed in statistical theory, thank you very much.




*disclaimer*
This post is not in any way, shape, nor form a critique of current suspecting policies. I am referencing them only as a potential source of bias in the usage stats cited earlier in this thread.
 
4LO lacks viability because the person using it still knows he doesn't have KS. It's easy to say 4LO is strong as an outside perspective because it gives Aegi a variety of moves to counter every poke. If you actually use 4LO in game vs someone, it's much harder. You need to predict and it can get very risky. People will still be afraid of KS sure, but you'll also be afraid because you don't have it. There's risk on both sides, but I'd argue there's much bigger risk on you losing Aegi for no reason.
I am pro-unban and this statement is completely wrong and misinformed. Fast 4 attacks LO is an excellent set able to punch holes in the common balance teams in the ladder. By saying that it lacks viability you just show that you haven't used it.

These are the usage stats taken from the OU suspect in which Aegi was the #1 holder in usage at 37%. These stats are fine and an indicator of the meta we would likely see if Aegi was unbanned. If you are trying to argue that 2 weeks is not nearly enough time to determine if these stats are correct, especially with the large volume of games being played everyday over these two weeks, you'd pretty much have to dismiss a lot of statistical analysis theory.
Also, of course aegislash is going to see higher usage than it normally would, because this is a fucking aegislash suspect test? No shit aegislash is going to be used quite a lot, and obviously more than it would if it was unbanned, because people want to see what it is like in ORAS.
 
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why are y'all even taking into consideration weird af moves that don't do anything except lure a particular pokemon? it's like "ferrothorn is not a counter to gyarados because it can have natural gift watmel, you gotta scout that, or quagsire not a counter to talonflame because natural gift liechi". they are using those moves PARTICULARLY to lure these pokemon. it's the same case for head smash aegislash for mandi or hp ice for gliscor? they are just giving up their own viability to lure a pokemon, it's not even worth talking about.

annoying af to see "we cant scout even with mandibuzz because it might carry head smash" yeah and the gyarados might be carrying natural gift for ferro you ought to scout that too smh
 

Vryheid

fudge jelly
Ah yes, the good ol' "if a pokemon has high usage it MUST be better than anything else" argument. Good thing I know that next time I need to argue that nothing beats clothes from Walmart or that McDonalds has the world's greatest cheeseburgers. Human beings are not perfectly logical, unbiased agents, and certainly not a bunch of online players looking to pick whatever fad team will help them reach ladder reqs the fastest. Here's a thought, until someone gets a PhD in Competitive Pokemon Theory how about saving this "statistical analysis" nonsense and look at the hard facts of what options are available for offensive teams. Using the all-vs-one feature on the damage calculator, it's clear that only a handful of standard OU sets can guarantee a OHKO on Aegislash:

-Wallbreaker Crawdaunt
-DD Mega Charizard X
-Mega Charizard Y
-Scarf Chandelure
-Life Orb Excadrill
-Specially Offensive Landorus
-All Out Attacker Entei
-Revenge Killer Talonflame
-Scarf Heatran

Why is this important? Because while bulky or balanced teams could slap on some tanky set like specially defensive Hippowdon or Porygon2 to counter most Aegislash, offensive teams rely on that magic OHKO to get the job done against Pokemon like Aegislash which hit very hard against a wide range of Pokemon. They cannot expect to be able to tank more than one Shadow Ball from a Life Orb set on ANY of their Pokemon, and thus must rely on checks. This is why something like Kyurem-B, which is demonstratably even more difficult for offensive teams to switch into, is not considered unbalanced- there are more threats that can threaten Kyurem-B out with a OHKO by an order of magnitude. This is simply not the case with Aegislash.

What does this all mean? Given the damage calcs and and some of the evidence presented ealier in this thread, it is indisputable that offensive teams will be under significantly more pressure to function should Aegislash become very popular. A shift in focus from speedy attackers to more immediate power would help punch through even Aegislash's bulk, as outspeeding it obviously is not much an issue. An unorthodox lead like Life Orb Landorus-T, for instance, would easily OHKO Aegislash while still providing momentum and hazard support.

Personally I still don't have much of a preference on this ban either way because there is nothing inherently wrong with not supporting every concievable team archetype evenly. But to act like we can predict exactly what the metagame will look like two months after an unbanning just based on usage stats is ludicrous.
 
None of the Pokemon you listed are near as versatile as Aegislash. Aegislash can run offensive and defensive sets, having insane bulk and good or great offensive output no matter the set. Landorus-T can run Scarf, SD (Salac or Double Dance), or SR. SR Land-T isn't even good anymore, with the rise of things like Lopunny it gets competition vs Hippowdon, which is better in most cases. Latios has niche sets like Memento, but besides that it can only Defog and Calm Mind, not really that versatile. Lando-I will either be RP, SR, or 4 Atks, there isnt another set that's seen often. Charizard Y has no versatility, Dragon Pulse is terrible on it and Dragon Dance is a joke of a set. Charizard Y literally only has one set, and it's Fire Blast/Flamethrower | Solarbeam | Focus Blast | Roost. Talonflame can go offensive, stallbreaking, or bulky SD, so it's decently versatile. Rotom-W lol. It only has one good set that isn't niche, and that's the standard one. Breloom isn't even good without Aegislash.
You forgot mixed Latios with EQuake (tho from what I've been playing, I preferr Surf; good for ridding of Venu-Heatran cores, but that's my opinion anyway); even that was a thing, tho;
Saying D-Pulse is unviable on Char-Y by sacrificing Roost, I find it arguable as well, since it beats what are pretty much its best checks (The Latwins); similar to an Aegislash with 4 attacks to me; D-dance was sarcasm; I have no idea why people would run it on a full SAtk set (EDIT: Tho, hey, still a Scarf achieving speed regardless of ATK boost); also, rather than mentioning Charizard-Y, I should just mention Charizard itself; it might require to Mega Evolve and all, but that's one big 50-50 when you have no idea just what it's going to megaevolve into and unlike Aegislash, it's not that slow either.
A Pokemon I haven't mentioned is Gengar, another beast in term of versatility; if your team loses to Shadow Ball(s), wether it loses to the swift Gengar or "tankish" Aegislash, I find it not a great difference; Gengar itself has the power of generating switches the Gengar user can take advantage of, given only they know what their Gengar is running (until you scout and NOT saying that Aegislash = Gengar).
I don't get the "Breloom is not even good without Aegislash" part.


Aegislash has so many sets, they don't "outclass" other sets, it depends upon what you want to do with Aegislash and what kind of team you're running / you want to run. Aegislash can run the standard leftovers three attacks, spell tag three attacks, air balloon 4 atks, pursuit, balloon w/ pursuit, life orb, subtoxic, sub two attacks, and lo sd. All are viable and none of them "outclass" another. Unless you're playing full stall or hyper offense it's insanely hard to accurately guess what kind of set a competent player will be running.

You mention overcentralization but didn't explain why you don't think it's overcentralizing. Aegislash had 52.7% usage in the live suspect tours and a 48.3% win percentage. Everyone knew Aegislash was going to be brought and it still managed to win nearly half of its games, and this includes Aegislash vs Aegislash games.

I didn't "mention" overcentralization; I asked in regards of this "overmentioned" overcentalization generated by Aegislash, which I don't understand;
And the Lopunny-Aegislash core as "BROKEN AND UNRESISTED and ****", I don't get that either; I have faced said core and, sure, it's, good, I guess?



Aegislash has crazy bulk, it may be possible to "wear it down" but it's not near as easy as you make it out to be, and if you're switching Aegislash into a Keldeo or your opponent is someone is making some pretty bad plays. Aegislash isn't a 'Mon that is going to beat every single 'Mon, it's one that's insanely strong and bulky that beats over half of the metagame by itself. Idk why people keep mentioning Gyarados as an answer to Aegislash. One of these will happen;
A) You're switching it into a Shadow Ball / forcing a 50/50 on switching vs attacking on the King's Shield / Attack, and if you lose your Gyarados will lose 50% of its health.
B) You'll give Gyarados a free switch, whether by U-Turning on the switch in with something like Jirachi or Celebi, saccing a 'Mon to Aegislash, or making a double switch. Only one of these is a smart move and that's u-turning, which isn't something you'll be able to do everytime and is definitely not going to be reliable. Double switching is perfectly fine if you're capable to pull it off, but the risk vs reward shows it's very rarely worth actually pulling it off, especially with a 'Mon like Gyarados, which will most likely be your primary win condition. Not saying it can't be done, but it's a very risky move and not something you should have to rely on vs what would be the most common 'Mon. If you have to sac something to Aegislash to bring in a Mon, you probably can find a better answer or just maybe this 'Mon is broken.
Even Leviator (sorry, that's how I call Gyarados) itself is more versatile than just having its Mega Stone; but if it does have its stone, it can just mega evolve in front of Aegislash (if it hasn't done that already) turning Shadow Ball's damage to way below 50%, then I might want to watch out for S-Sword, I can switch for that and cool, now I know what Aegislash's set is; Even something as basic as SR damage can hint on the Aegislash's set, if it doesn't recover health; that's just mind games and scenarios, which only count in the regards of the sets in question being used at that time; I could just pick another Pokèmon not called Aegislash or Leviator and put it there; perhaps something even faster, which makes it all the worse.

Things like Scizor, Azumarill, and Venusaur are obviously things that Aegislash shouldn't be staying in on, but none of them can safely switch in and consistently. All three lost straight up to fast LO Aegislash (Shadow Ball and Iron Head 2HKO all three), Spell Tag 2HKOs Venu and Scizor, and it's just insanely easily to wear down Azumarill to the point it can't check Aegislash / another 'Mon it would need to check anymore. None of those are legit answers nor are they safe. Venusaur is a good check but it needs HP Fire / Knock Off to beat it reliably and still losses to fast Aegislash, plus it also gets worn down insanely easily.
Uh, not really; if Aegislash is running this aforementioned "laughable" full-salvo set (WITH SPEED INVESTEMENT?!), Azumarill will tank a hit and hit it in Blade Form (2KOED Azumarill, perhaps; Aegislash will get One shot'ed).
Venusaur and Scizor, unlike Aegislash, have access to recovery and are much faster (unless we want to consider specific sets only for Aegislash's pure theoretical advantage?). An Aegislash with speed investment, I just can't picture it, as "effective" as I might have it in certain scenarios.



The fact Aeigslash cripples things like Metagross, Lopunny, and Altaria is not reason to bring it back down, quite the opposite. You don't bring down one broken 'Mon to check more broken 'Mons, you ban the ones that are overpowered or overcentralizing. You'll never see something like Lugia come down to OU just so Landorus-I isn't broken, or anything ridiculous like that. Broken checking broken is a terrible philosophy and isn't at all a legit reason to bring any 'Mon down. You bring a 'Mon back down if it isn't going to be insanely overpowered or overcentralizing, and Aegislash is definitely not a 'Mon that should come back down.
That's what I stated previously; the continuos banning of things, just to bring (non)"balance" to the unbalanced; especially considering that in the per-se "laughable" manner of banning things that site has, tho I won't dig onto that, by the time you oughta be done banning all of those, it'll be just about Gen 7 time already (lol), especially considering you (not you in particular, person) just "failed" to ban one of the aforementioned threats. While Aegislash might not be an instant antidote per se to the unbalance, even with the chance of it gaining a (POSSIBLE) spotlight itself in the environment, it does ultimately bring some balance in regards of 3, THREE, mentioned threats, one of which is still vastly conceived as an issue, even tho it was not banned succesfully. If there is indeed one fair claim I can make about Aegislash's return, is that your team won't lose to Mega Metagross IF YOU HAVE IT (lol);

And to the one thing I just typed, something I will agree with tho, in regards of causing "more unbalance", is that, for example, you won't lose to Mega Metagross as easily (if you have Aegislash), however, it's merely Aegislash's presence that will lead Mega Metagross's "team builder picker" to prepare better for Aegislash if it wants to use Mega Metagross, with the issue tho, that in the event of not having something to deal with one S-Attacker (Mega Metagross I mean, which might become A-Attacker or whatever with Aegislash being around), you'll have to deal with another (possible) S-Attacker (Aegislash, tho on which I still don't see as threatening for what I already stated; my opinion, of course. Even Mega Pinsir was an S-Attacker, for as much as I'd like to take this X-Attacker thing into consideration that much, seeing how it evershifts, but still, that's good enough input).

Lugia and Aegislash are really not even comparable. I just "fail" to address Aegislash as such a broken powerhouse as I've read it throughout these pages (then again, I did ask more input about this overcentralizing). But even if it does end up centralizing
It leans towards 1-2 best-suit-for-all-sets, does a similar job as Gengar in term of annoying with its "versatility", which is still on a level not as good as Gengar's, in my opinion, mostly because I dislike Pokèmons I might not even lay a finger on, if I either have no faster response or nothing that can tank 130 + LO + 110 Speed Ghost (+ Poison + Fairy + Fighting) attacks. Most of the people I faced would scout for my Non Shadow Ball attack, and at some point, I had to use it, else I wanted Aegislash to sit like a duck in the face of Mandibuzz, Bisharp, Tyranitar, Sylveon, SDef Gliscor, SDef BRELOOM (Yes, no one would even consider this one, I guess; as "stupidly as it might be, given how well it can perform) other things that Shadow Ball would not instantly threaten.

When team building, I was not in a state of mind of worrying too much about Aegislashes; if I couldn't sponge Slow Shadow Balls, I wouldn't sponge Fast Shadow Balls either. And as mentioned, (by other people too) it's not TOO difficult to scout for Aegislash moves/sets.

I hate mass quoting; I'll definitely even end up missing something or saying something "poorly".
 
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why are y'all even taking into consideration weird af moves that don't do anything except lure a particular pokemon? it's like "ferrothorn is not a counter to gyarados because it can have natural gift watmel, you gotta scout that, or quagsire not a counter to talonflame because natural gift liechi". they are using those moves PARTICULARLY to lure these pokemon. it's the same case for head smash aegislash for mandi or hp ice for gliscor? they are just giving up their own viability to lure a pokemon, it's not even worth talking about.

annoying af to see "we cant scout even with mandibuzz because it might carry head smash" yeah and the gyarados might be carrying natural gift for ferro you ought to scout that too smh
Yeah people need to take the rest of their opponent's team into consideration. Not just for aegislash but guessing sets in general like scarf or lefties lando t or which zard they are running etc. It gets a lot easier to guess the set if you think about what their team needs. It really isn't that hard, I feel like I guess right 80% of the time and if you can't really see any specific needs guess the standard set. I mean occasionally you guess wrong and lose pokemon which may result in losing a battle every once in a while, it happens and not just from aegislash. Idk I just feel like we need to stop psyching ourselves out as if it has 20 move slots. In my experience on the suspect ladder aegislash really hasn't been that great. Sure it is a top level pokemon and is pretty consistent but it honestly isn't even the best thing in the tier. KS is easy to exploit, it is slow and weak to common moves and it has good bulk but not really enough considering its lack of speed and recovery... idk I guess everyone seems really set in their opinion and I don't think it is broken but nobody seems to be voting based on that anymore
 
I will share some of my final thoughts on the suspect. First of all, I think aegislash himself isn't broken, it is an amazing mon with good offensive and defensive power but its less threatening then it seems on paper, but I will get to that later.

I think that most people will agree with me when I say that the reason to ban aegislash is for overcentralization, which is the main reason why the communitee so thorn about the this suspect-centralization doesn't have a clear cut so every player have a different opinion about when the meta is centraliazed , and at the same time everyone think differently about a centralized meta.

My simple opinion about this suspect is that Aegislash isn't broken, but it is centralizing, yet not enough to be banned. So Oras came, and on paper we have the perfect metagame-lots of viable mon and every playstyle is viable, we achieved our wanted metagame, yet on surface we just have a lot of strong threats, most of them(if not all) are not broken but at the same time they are way too threatening. This situation create a big line of pokemons which are between balanced and broken-almost every meta game have few of those but we have too much, which is why we are finding ourselves dealing with threats which might too much but at the same time can't ban anything.

Now to aegi- the sword is sitting on the same line of those threats, but unlike rest of them it have additional effect, it forcing a large amount of the metagame(a lot of it are those semi-broken mons) to prepare for it. It doesn't do this by forcing a bizarre counters(foul play digersby for giratina-o or porygon2 for greninja) but by making them use less optimal(but yet effective and useful) mons and coverage. This create a metagame which is more centralized but a the same time more healthier and stable. I want for example to take a look at the current UU meta, which pretty much anyone will agree that is stable and good example for desired meta. Yet at the top of the metagame are sitting three threatening mons-suicune, salamence and mega aerodactyle. Those three mons are very dangerous threats that if you don't preparing for it will get destroyed by them. While they centralizing the meta is still diverse and stable, you can even say that because the meta is circling around them its stable.

Back to Aegislash, I won't lie-its gonna be more centralizing then those mentioned above, yet I believe(and I will try to convincing you too) that it won't be too centralizing, or in a way that will have a negative effect on the meta. I think that anyone that got to ladder with the treats that are seem unviable because of aegi, finding that:
1) it is viable, it does having trouble with aegislash around yet still effective(mega heracross is a great example)
2) its a great even with aegi around, we maybe didn't saw its potential back then or the meta was different(for example starmie which his true problem back at the time was greninja)
3) aegislash outclassing its or hard walling its, which happen with every top treat(like m-cham whose hard walled by aegi(though already lost ton viability with gallade around) or salamence which have what it takes for ou but outclassed by too many stuff)

In addition to what I wrote above I would to adress to some points of the pro-ban side:
1)the AOA life orb and subtoxic sets-I won't say that they are bad, they show how versatile aegi is and truly pass his traditional counters, but its seems people exaggerating their value, as they take away a lot of his usual pros-the all out attack set is a glass canon thats gets worn down too easily, and subtoxic is really mach-up dependent.
2)there no reason not to use it-whether you pro-ban or against it, we all gonna agree its gonna be best mon in ou. Yet, there so many unique and great mons in the meta that can perform a lot of rolls that aegislash can't. Even in XY, he never got more than 24% usage, which is quite a lot but not as much as people make it seem.
3)the typing-godly, no doubt. Deal with so many stuff, and have so many resistances and immunities, but is come with four weaknesses, three of those very common. The first-dark, is a new powerhouse in gen 6, hitting so many stuff while having great moves like sucker punch, pursuit, foul play and knock off. All of those so common and can give aegi such a hard time. The second, fire, is less common yet lot of mon use it as coverage, and the zards are treats as always. The third, ground, is probably most common, earthquake is a great move and almost useful,and no contact can really screw aegi.
4)king shield-while being a great move, people tend to forget how risky it can be, when predicted right by the opponent you actually give him a free turn which can be used to set up or switch for something better.

I wanted to write more, but this is it for, sorry if something not understood(my english need more work). Anyway, in case it wasn't understood, I personally think no ban.
 

MANNAT

https://spo.ink/aq7
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Ah yes, the good ol' "if a pokemon has high usage it MUST be better than anything else" argument. Good thing I know that next time I need to argue that nothing beats clothes from Walmart or that McDonalds has the world's greatest cheeseburgers. Human beings are not perfectly logical, unbiased agents, and certainly not a bunch of online players looking to pick whatever fad team will help them reach ladder reqs the fastest. Here's a thought, until someone gets a PhD in Competitive Pokemon Theory how about saving this "statistical analysis" nonsense and look at the hard facts of what options are available for offensive teams. Using the all-vs-one feature on the damage calculator, it's clear that only a handful of standard OU sets can guarantee a OHKO on Aegislash:

-Wallbreaker Crawdaunt
-DD Mega Charizard X
-Mega Charizard Y
-Scarf Chandelure
-Life Orb Excadrill
-Specially Offensive Landorus
-All Out Attacker Entei
-Revenge Killer Talonflame
-Scarf Heatran

Why is this important? Because while bulky or balanced teams could slap on some tanky set like specially defensive Hippowdon or Porygon2 to counter most Aegislash, offensive teams rely on that magic OHKO to get the job done against Pokemon like Aegislash which hit very hard against a wide range of Pokemon. They cannot expect to be able to tank more than one Shadow Ball from a Life Orb set on ANY of their Pokemon, and thus must rely on checks. This is why something like Kyurem-B, which is demonstratably even more difficult for offensive teams to switch into, is not considered unbalanced- there are more threats that can threaten Kyurem-B out with a OHKO by an order of magnitude. This is simply not the case with Aegislash.

What does this all mean? Given the damage calcs and and some of the evidence presented ealier in this thread, it is indisputable that offensive teams will be under significantly more pressure to function should Aegislash become very popular. A shift in focus from speedy attackers to more immediate power would help punch through even Aegislash's bulk, as outspeeding it obviously is not much an issue. An unorthodox lead like Life Orb Landorus-T, for instance, would easily OHKO Aegislash while still providing momentum and hazard support.

Personally I still don't have much of a preference on this ban either way because there is nothing inherently wrong with not supporting every concievable team archetype evenly. But to act like we can predict exactly what the metagame will look like two months after an unbanning just based on usage stats is ludicrous.
Aegislash basically has a way to easily beat every one of those mons. Wallbreaker Crawdaunt just needs to predict a KS wrong and it gets murdered by sacred sword, if Aegi has a weather starter as a teammate (I like to run Hippo as it is a nice physical blanket check) it can take a flamethrower (def most common fire STAB on zard) and straight out kill it with shadow ball+sneak after rocks every single time. Both Scarf users are a nice checks to Aegi, but it can easily pivot out to a specially defensive mon that wall them to hell and back, and choice locked sets are usually pretty easy to play around. Excadrill loses to magnet rise (which is perfectly viable on Aegi). Those Entei and Tflame sets honestly have fallen out of grace and aren't that good in OU tbh. Will add more later
 
Aegislash basically has a way to easily beat every one of those mons. Wallbreaker Crawdaunt just needs to predict a KS wrong and it gets murdered by sacred sword, if Aegi has a weather starter as a teammate (I like to run Hippo as it is a nice physical blanket check) it can take a flamethrower (def most common fire STAB on zard) and straight out kill it with shadow ball+sneak after rocks every single time. Both Scarf users are a nice checks to Aegi, but it can easily pivot out to a specially defensive mon that wall them to hell and back, and choice locked sets are usually pretty easy to play around. Excadrill loses to magnet rise (which is perfectly viable on Aegi). Those Entei and Tflame sets honestly have fallen out of grace and aren't that good in OU tbh. Will add more later
The point of the post you quoted isn't to say these mons counter aegi, he's just listing out what it takes to OHKO aegi in shield form (which, as it turns out, is quite a lot).
 

MANNAT

https://spo.ink/aq7
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
The point of the post you quoted isn't to say these mons counter aegi, he's just listing out what it takes to OHKO aegi in shield form (which, as it turns out, is quite a lot).
Oops, and Aegi can even beat most of those mons with little to no team support. Go figure
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Looks like we're done discussing here. Many good arguments have been made in this thread both in favor and against Aegislash's unban.

Whether Aegislash gets unbanned or not will ultimately come down to what kind of metagame qualified voters prefer: a more centralized and less match up based metagame or a more diverse and match up reliant one. I've heard many good players argue that a metagame centralized around a restricted number of threats results into a more skill based and enjoyable one. On the other hand though, it's been pointed out that the kind of centralization Aegislash brings to the table is just unhealthy for the game, as it's a Pokémon that is capable of moulding the tier. Both the above statements are true to an extent. In a few days, we'll know the verdict.
 
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