np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Genie in a bottle

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One thing that I've heard mentioned from the anti-ban side besides the usual "lando-I is like any other powerful wall breaker like manaphy or kyu-B and we have enough checks to keep it in bay"(it's too bad that the checks, besides being shaky at best, are either pursuit bait or can be worn down repeatedly by sr and cannot consistently check lando-I, who sports enough power and coverage to pressure the hell out of them) is that lando-i is more or less deadweight against offense. I just don't find this to be the case when
A.) Lando-i sports solid 89/90/80 bulk that not only allows it to soak up even neutral hits and fire off powerful hits in return and
B.) unlike manaphy or kyurem-b, landorus does have a threatening set that can take a shit on offensive teams mid/late game in rock polish.
Yes, offense doesn't struggle as much with lando-i as other archetypes, but it is far from deadweight against them, and I've seen well-played lando-i get at least a kill or two (or even more) against offensive teams due to the these traits. 101 base speed is certainly pretty damn solid enough for it to especially punish more defensive teams and balanced while also taking advantage of good typing defensively and an ability that let's it fire off powerful hits with little to no drawbacks as far as being worn down is concerned.
 

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Electric potential
Ok I finally got reqs so I will post my last considerations about Landorus in the metagame at the moment. Almost everything has been already posted to forget me if I repeat something. also I will skip the fluff about coverage because I already talked about it and it has been treated enough.. If my decision was a bit pending at the start, I'm now fully convinced in giving the ban to Landorus. From a personal experience, during this ladder session, the tier just felt better than it was before, as there was possibility to run different playstyles and variety of teams, and because defensively-oriented teams such as balanced ones, of course benefit from that and also were allowed to run some different patterns and builds, but were still struggling against things such as Manaphy and Kyurem-B(I actually used them and I didn't feel a major struggle against balanced teams). Manaphy and Kyurem-B, still aren't no brainers and have an higher risk if you compare them to Landorus, as they carry some drawbacks and can be handled more easily, therefore need a bigger support, also Manaphy and Kyurem-B(w/out outrage) actually have counters and still struggle with things such as Chansey, which fears Knock Off from Landorus and can get past easily by it (Manaphy also needs a Tail Glow boost most of the times to put in work).
I think that you made a pretty good point here that was underlooked in almost every page of this thread: Landorus doesn't need a boost to run through Balance cores. Comparisons between Landorus, Manaphy, and KyuB are all over this thread as ways to beat common balance cores and run through more defensive archetypes. The thing with the latter two, though, is that they have some issues that Landorus does not. In the case of Manaphy, setting up a Tail Glow is 100% necessary to tear through Balance cores, which is one whole turn that Manaphy doesn't really pressure opposing teams with a rather below average 100 SAtk, no boosting item (unless you're using LO Manaphy which I have never seen), and ability that doesn't make it more powerful. Thus, when Manaphy comes in, it doesn't act as an instant offensive presence, which allows Balance cores to either immediately switch into their check or revenge killer or potentially status it, limiting its sweeping capabilities. Landorus, on the other hand, poses an immediate threat once it's in because of it's absurd unboosted power and ability to knock out many defensive threats after only a bit of prior damage (Ferrothorn, Clefable, Heatran, Slowbro, Jirachi, etc). Then, if you add on the ability to boost with Calm Mind or punish checks for coming in with Knock Off, Landorus goes far beyond Manaphy's ability to break Balance. In the case of Kyurem-B, Landorus has something that KyuB does not: lack of Life Orb recoil. KyuB needs Life Orb to be effective vs bulkier teams so that it can score OHKOs and 2HKOs, but this, along with a crippling Stealth Rock weakness as well as vulnerability to Spikes and Toxic Spikes (as well as Sticky Web if thats at all relevant), means that revenge killing it is much, much easier. This goes back to the low risk high reward situation that Landorus possesses--it loses absolutely nothing (both figuratively and physically, as in 0 HP) by going for a Life Orb Sheer Force boosted attack if it can take out the Pokemon in front of it. This makes Landorus actually more difficult to revenge kill than people are making it out to be. The only way to really wear Landorus down passively is through Stealth Rock switch-ins and Toxic. Also, Landorus can't get T-Waved unlike KyuB and Manaphy, so bulkier teams that rely on paralyzing faster threats to revenge kill them already have a hard time with Landorus.
 
He is not the most powerfull wall breaker in the tier (victini life orb v-create hits harder, also mega pinsir return hits hard too, choice band tyrantrum head smash etc) but Landorus I is the most viable one.
 
Tbh Lando-I ain't broken, but I'm gonna vote ban anyway. I never use it and it's just annoying to face. I voted no-ban on things in the past which were arguably more broken, but now it's my turn to vote ban for something that I don't like :P

Eh, so this post isn't just petty bitching, here's an actual legit reason I want it banned: Stall really struggles with Lando-I, and is pretty much forced to run Chansey (which is still fucked over by Knock Off and Calm Mind) or Cresselia (who is very easily Pursuit trapped). I don't think you can compare Lando-I to other wallbreakers because it is not like other wallbreakers. There's always a way for stall to deal with other wallbreakers... Lando-I not so much. When an entire playstyle is raped by a single mon, I think it's time to ban.
While I'm not going to be able to participate in the voting (mostly lack of time to ladder), I think you are underestimating Landorus-I when you say it isn't broken. You yourself noted that CM Lando-I screws Stall over so it is one playstyle it already manhandles easily. Then, the AoA set can easily destory balance teams as those teams struggle to find a switch-in to it as most of it's checks get destroyed by a coverage move, causing the balance player to lose momentum and sometimes sac a mon each time it gets in. As for it's performance against Offense, the RP set can really put in some work as the frail mons in HO are outsped and OHKOed by Landorus-I (Landorus has respectable bulk that makes it difficult to OHKO with neutral hits). Furthermore, as I stated in an earlier post, Landorus-I's effectiveness doesn't change much as the CM set can still cause problems to balance cores, for example. This means that Lando-I is never deadweight and can check as well as be checked by similar Pokemon. This can lead to its checks being lured in easily to clear the room for a sweeper (for example, Zapdos is lured by Rock Slide so Thundurus-I can sweep later). While the ability to hit hard isn't exactly new, Lando-I has everything it needs, strong hits, good speed, decent bulk and respectable movepool, all qualities which while not broken by themselves, pushes Landorus over the edge when it has the full package.
 
So one thing that has been brought up to a degree about lando as compared to other wallbreakera is its immediate power, and longevity. For example, manaphy and serperior NEED to set up to pose a threat to any kind of team(serperior is different in that it can set up and attack at the same time, but a turn of setup os still a turn if set up). And other wall breakers such as kyu b, victini, zard x, zard y, m pinsir, etc are very succeptable to wearing themselves down with entry hazards, life orb recoil, and or stat lowering moves. The moment lando comes in it poses a threat but it does not come with the downside of other mons that fit a similiar role. While it is true that there are wallbreakers that are faster (gengar, serp), mons that are bulkier (m-hera, victini), and mons that have more opportunity to set up against offense (zard x, m-alt), lando standa out in thay its drawbacks and opportunity cost are so low. This is why I think lando is broke. There are areas where it is outclassed by certain mons, the fact that it in a sense is a "jack if all trades" (not by the technical definition of a jack of all trades, like m-alt, but more of one that is a jack od all trades in its specific role) is what makes lando i broken in my opinion, so yeah i think its best if it goes.

Ps, im sure there are spelling and grammatical mistakes but on my phone right now so i'll fix these when i get home.
 
Alright, since I just got my reqs, I might as well post why Landorus-I shouldn't be banned. This is mainly stemming from ABR's anti-ban argument which was great at pointing out why Lando really isn't that broken. To do this, we can examine Lando's performance against the three playstyles.

Against Offense, Lando-I really doesn't do much. The pro-ban side brings up the RP set to show that Lando can beat offense, but doesn't take into account the difficulty that Lando has in setting up. While Lando is said to have "above average speed", mostly everything on offense outspeeds and beats it. The amount of HP Ices present among offense in preparation for Lando is staggering, meaning that whenever it tries to set up, it really struggles to find opportunities to do so. And even if it sets up a RP, it is weak to the priority of Weaville and Azu, both of which have a huge chance to OHKO it. So, in conclusion, Lando is really difficult to use against offense, with its speed tier not proving enough. Even if it uses one specific set to set up a RP, it still can find itself taken down by common priority.

Against stall, as ABR mentioned, there are several mons which naturally defensively check Lando-I. Yes, it has the capabilities to beat each of those checks, but based on its set, it is unable to beat each one of them. Because of this, Stall has the ability to beat Lando-I because of how each of its sets are naturally defensively checked by some mon on stall. Yes, it can break certain walls with ease, but once its set is determined, it is easy to check and counter with certain stall mons.

Against balance and bulky offense is where Lando really thrives though. Its ability to shit on fat, bulky squads with super powerful attacks is what makes it recognized. However, this is a trait common in all true balance breakers. Take Manaphy for example. It also breaks balance and fat squads easily, and runs a few viable sets. It boosts extremely quickly, putting it on par with Landorus as far as wallbreaking goes, while still having better natural bulk and an only slightly worse speed tier. It is a general consensus that Manaphy isn't metagame defining (Source: Check Viability Ranking arguments for why Manaphy couldn't go to S Rank) and therefore isn't broken even though it completely shreds bulky offense. Balance and Bulky Offense have a lot of team matchup issues going on right now as well, with the rise of TG Manaphy and Torn-T, and banning Landorus will not stop the matchup issues for this playstyle because of these two mons. In fact, Landorus is only one of the factors that stops this playstyle from being effective, so its decline can't be blamed on Landorus alone.

As far as the suspect ladder goes, Manaphy and Torn-T are quite common, proving that banning Landorus will provide no shortage of balance breakers that teams have to deal with. I will concede the fact that the stress on teambuilding is alleviated to a certain extent without Lando, but the ladder still seems one-dimensional.

Overall, at least in my opinion, Landorus is overly hyped and its actual performance against all three playstyles needs to be carefully examined before deciding to ban it. Banning it doesn't actually solve the problems that Balance and Bulky offense face in the current meta, and so it doesn't need to be banned.
 
Against balance and bulky offense is where Lando really thrives though. Its ability to shit on fat, bulky squads with super powerful attacks is what makes it recognized. However, this is a trait common in all true balance breakers. Take Manaphy for example. It also breaks balance and fat squads easily, and runs a few viable sets. It boosts extremely quickly, putting it on par with Landorus as far as wallbreaking goes, while still having better natural bulk and an only slightly worse speed tier. It is a general consensus that Manaphy isn't metagame defining (Source: Check Viability Ranking arguments for why Manaphy couldn't go to S Rank) and therefore isn't broken even though it completely shreds bulky offense. Balance and Bulky Offense have a lot of team matchup issues going on right now as well, with the rise of TG Manaphy and Torn-T, and banning Landorus will not stop the matchup issues for this playstyle because of these two mons. In fact, Landorus is only one of the factors that stops this playstyle from being effective, so its decline can't be blamed on Landorus alone.
I'd just like to point out the obvious by even though Manaphy boosts very fast, it still has to give away a turn whenever it wishes to do so. landorous can still hit extremely hard without boosting, and tears apart more than just stall, as has been repeatedly trumped throughout this thread.
 

Shurtugal

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In BW2, there was this argument that Keldeo could curbstomp all of its counters and checks and was oh-so broken, but the suspect voting came and Keldeo stayed in OU.

I think that each time there's a suspect, the proban side overexaggerates the suspect's presence as a threat. According to proban users, said suspect practically has no counters since it can practically get around all of them given a practical scenario.

I just think it's flawed. I'm not saying Land can't get past its counters or checks or anything, but there's a level of exaggeration here. Balance might struggle a bit against Land, but Land isn't 6-0ing balance or anything. There are plenty of checks, shaky perhaps, but easy enough to be LOTs of them you can add on balance. It's stall that the real argument lies in: +1 FB 2hkos Chansey and Psychic 2HKOs Gliscor I mean what can stall do to CM Land? That's the ONLY argument I think the proban side has that's worth defending, because Land's presence against balance + offense are hardly bannable offenses. It's the effect against stall that makes me second guess my decision to keep it in OU.

But the main point: stop overplaying Land. According to some people here, Land is like some God pokemon that there's no reason not to use that wins against every matchup of teams and is the best thing everrrrr!!!!!! And I just don't see Land at that level as a player.

Is Land broken on terms of its function against stall? I don't know. It's the only thing I question; but if we compare it to balance or offense or weather teams or anything else, I just don't see Land as a broken force. Balance has checks, offense has counters (in ITS definitions, since offense is a frail playstyle) and stall... doesn't have much. It's the only argument worth making, and it's the argument NO ONE is making here. Everyone keeps saying it beats balance. If we're talking strictly of Land's performence against balance, then NO BAN please.

Otherwise... I'm on the fence.

OH NO DITTO! IT OUTSPEEDS ANYTHING IT COPIES! HAS NO COUNTERS! YOU CAN ONLY REVENGE KILL IT! BANNNNN
 

rs

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So since I just got reqs, I'll post about how the suspect test went.

From what I saw on the ladder, people had some interesting teams on the ladder, and they didn't need to run specific mons just to check the monster. I could honestly say it was a pretty healthy meta from what I saw. Bulky offense and balance playstyles thrived from Lando-I not being there. There was also some cool stall teams that would've been ripped apart by Lando-I.

Although Lando-I could factor in as a balancing factor (Like most people said about Giratina-O lmao), I still think this monster with sheer force and the ability to run mixed sets should be banned.
 
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Karxrida

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Keldeo isn't exactly a good comparison. X and Y were around the corner when it was tested again and people had given up on the meta because we finally figured out that the problem was more to do with Rain than Keldeo.
 
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I think though it is fair to mention that Lando doesn't really have a free item slot as it is always holding a life orb. Ofc it isn't mandatory like with mega evolutions but you are pretty much wasting Lando's potential using other item and running mediocre sets that'd be outclassed by other mons, particularly it's therian form with only the surprise as the only value and because of this, Lando doesn't have as much freedom in movesets as other versatile threats and sets most people run are rock polish, 4 attacks and the occasional calm mind. I know there are other sets but they are more or less just gimmicks. But with that said, the aforementioned sets are extremely deadly on their own and can easily wreck shit with it's excellent power and good speed tier so I don't want to look like I'm taking it lightly.

It is however certainly doable to work around it and scouting it is far from impossible since it's strongest attack is ground type who may have more mons immune to it than any other type in ou (haven't counted it myself, but common, flying and levitate mons are everywhere in ou). Besides, it is mostly fatter teams that have the most trouble with it and I wouldn't even say Lando is their biggest threat (Manaphy is friggin op versus slower teams o.o). Lando has to setup against offense who may not always get a chance to do so, (also worth noting that mixed lando's usually have 89/90/-80 defense so it isn't as bulky as it may look like). Not that it needs to setup to do damage but it is not difficult to revenge kill and it can be tricky to keep it at full health against offensive teams with hazards on the field. Also, ice and water are common attacks and ice is particularly golden right now, not just against Lando but also against Chomp, Lando-T, Gliscor and more. I just feel like a lot people here have over-exaggerated Lando because if it could manhandle offensive and stall teams as easily like it does to balanced teams then it probably would have already have been banned.

Rambling aside I think everyone can agree that Lando is one of the many mons that feasts on the environment OU has shaped itself into so the question is wether if we wanna try adapt to it or ban it.
 
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ginganinja

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Lando has to setup against offense who may not always get a chance to do so,
If it wants to 6-0 teams then yes, you are correct that it has to set up, but that doesn't change the fact that pretty much every Landorus set out there hits exceptionally hard unboosted, as well as its ability to threaten entire teams with its exceptional coverage. Even if I was running (say), Calm Mind Landorus, and ran into an offense team, I can still smack you hard between Sheer Force and my sexy coverage options. My opponent doesn't even know for certain that I am actually CM (bar looking at my team and making a calculated guess) which STILL limits what he can and cannot safely bring in until he finally sees my full moveset. Sure, offensive teams can "revenge kill it", but Landorus-I isn't forced to stick around, if it easily got in and forced an advantageous position then I'll keep it around until it no longer does so. I won't mention the latter part of your post, because I'm fully aware that Landorus-I is weak to Ice and Water, fortunately, I can pull off a highly intellectual and advanced tactic known as switching, and thus avoid Landorus getting smacked by a super effective move.
 

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In BW2, there was this argument that Keldeo could curbstomp all of its counters and checks and was oh-so broken, but the suspect voting came and Keldeo stayed in OU.

I think that each time there's a suspect, the proban side overexaggerates the suspect's presence as a threat. According to proban users, said suspect practically has no counters since it can practically get around all of them given a practical scenario.

I just think it's flawed. I'm not saying Land can't get past its counters or checks or anything, but there's a level of exaggeration here. Balance might struggle a bit against Land, but Land isn't 6-0ing balance or anything. There are plenty of checks, shaky perhaps, but easy enough to be LOTs of them you can add on balance. It's stall that the real argument lies in: +1 FB 2hkos Chansey and Psychic 2HKOs Gliscor I mean what can stall do to CM Land? That's the ONLY argument I think the proban side has that's worth defending, because Land's presence against balance + offense are hardly bannable offenses. It's the effect against stall that makes me second guess my decision to keep it in OU.

But the main point: stop overplaying Land. According to some people here, Land is like some God pokemon that there's no reason not to use that wins against every matchup of teams and is the best thing everrrrr!!!!!! And I just don't see Land at that level as a player.

Is Land broken on terms of its function against stall? I don't know. It's the only thing I question; but if we compare it to balance or offense or weather teams or anything else, I just don't see Land as a broken force. Balance has checks, offense has counters (in ITS definitions, since offense is a frail playstyle) and stall... doesn't have much. It's the only argument worth making, and it's the argument NO ONE is making here. Everyone keeps saying it beats balance. If we're talking strictly of Land's performence against balance, then NO BAN please.

Otherwise... I'm on the fence.

OH NO DITTO! IT OUTSPEEDS ANYTHING IT COPIES! HAS NO COUNTERS! YOU CAN ONLY REVENGE KILL IT! BANNNNN
By this logic if we're just gonna assume that a suspects merits has to be some sort of unstoppable god in regards to being ban worthy, then even Mega Mawile or Deoxys-Speed wouldn't be considered close to ban worthy, so this notion you're presenting I think is pretty unhealthy in reviewing what is or isn't on the table in regards to how banning is being reviewed for ORAS. While you claim that pro-ban is over exaggerating its presence in the meta-game, you're overestimating what actually constitutes as a check to Landorus in the meta-game. I'm not gonna argue petty semantics as some have previously have done in what defines a check or counter cause anyone with even half decent meta-game knowledge will know in what realistic practical situations checks to Landorus even apply. However Balance having a multitude of checks is pretty far from the truth when these checks are and have been trend dependent which the Landorus builders have and will take advantage of. When Landorus ran Earth Power, Sludge Wave, HP Ice, Rock Polish builds normally used a combination of Specially Defensive Skarmory + two / three fat mons like Chansey to counteract this set. When people caught on to this, and they caught on in no less than a couple of weeks mind you, it went back to running Focus Blast. When AV Torn-T gained usage in slowing down Landorus, Rock Slide caught on and had the added bonus of taking out Specially Defensive Charizard-Y, Volcarona, the majority of Landorus' flying checks in the tier or at least ones that gave themselves the illusion they can set up on it

So this really just touches on just smaller trends that Landorus can and will adapt to pretty easily. It doesn't touch upon its Rock Polish set that will actually clean offense with set coverage based on team and meta trends, it doesn't touch upon Calm Mind which potentially not only 6-0s stall, but played well enough actually turns specially offensive checks into less than stellar answers to it after a Calm Mind or two, think Latis for example. It doesn't touch upon AoA where coverage is just as easy as capitalizing on what the next "Landorus answer" is and it doesn't touch upon one of the biggest momentum grabber in the Sub / 3 attacks set, which takes your switch in and gives Landorus a free move on it, think AV Torn-T switching in on a sub and getting hit with Rock Slide after.

These are a lot of variants you're trying to take into account straight from the start of building that you seem to be ignoring under some logic that somehow balance has sooo many good answers to Landorus and that offense isn't even closely hindered to it in the slightest.
That's the ONLY argument I think the proban side has that's worth defending, because Land's presence against balance + offense are hardly bannable offenses
This was your response in that its effect on stall is the only real merit to Landorus when in fact its the presence against Bulky Offense, Balance, and Stall along with the intricacies of each of these general playstyles that Landorus has the ability to take advantage of. Landorus is an extremely low opportunity cost Pokemon with minimal support that can and will provide ample momentum in any given match that outweighs whatever notion of competitiveness or healthy aspect it comes close to bringing to the tier. Therefore it should be banned from OU.
 
In BW2, there was this argument that Keldeo could curbstomp all of its counters and checks and was oh-so broken, but the suspect voting came and Keldeo stayed in OU.

I think that each time there's a suspect, the proban side overexaggerates the suspect's presence as a threat. According to proban users, said suspect practically has no counters since it can practically get around all of them given a practical scenario.

I just think it's flawed. I'm not saying Land can't get past its counters or checks or anything, but there's a level of exaggeration here. Balance might struggle a bit against Land, but Land isn't 6-0ing balance or anything. There are plenty of checks, shaky perhaps, but easy enough to be LOTs of them you can add on balance. It's stall that the real argument lies in: +1 FB 2hkos Chansey and Psychic 2HKOs Gliscor I mean what can stall do to CM Land? That's the ONLY argument I think the proban side has that's worth defending, because Land's presence against balance + offense are hardly bannable offenses. It's the effect against stall that makes me second guess my decision to keep it in OU.

But the main point: stop overplaying Land. According to some people here, Land is like some God pokemon that there's no reason not to use that wins against every matchup of teams and is the best thing everrrrr!!!!!! And I just don't see Land at that level as a player.

Is Land broken on terms of its function against stall? I don't know. It's the only thing I question; but if we compare it to balance or offense or weather teams or anything else, I just don't see Land as a broken force. Balance has checks, offense has counters (in ITS definitions, since offense is a frail playstyle) and stall... doesn't have much. It's the only argument worth making, and it's the argument NO ONE is making here. Everyone keeps saying it beats balance. If we're talking strictly of Land's performence against balance, then NO BAN please.

Otherwise... I'm on the fence.

OH NO DITTO! IT OUTSPEEDS ANYTHING IT COPIES! HAS NO COUNTERS! YOU CAN ONLY REVENGE KILL IT! BANNNNN
I don't recall any mon to have been ever banned for the sole reason of lacking efficient checks or counters (though this is still something to note when discussing a mon like lando-I). For nearly all suspects, attention is strictly paid to its presence and influence on the meta game as a whole. Landorus-i, to frankly put it, provides instant offense that is just overwhelmingly strong to the point that it becomes difficult to justify not using it on a team (opportunity cost of not using him is very high). The reason for this consists of a few factors that people have previously noted. The first is the ease by which it can switch in. Bulky offense, balance, and stall in particular have a difficult time fitting enough pressure on a team to prevent lando-i from constantly coming in due to its two immunities, immunity to spikes, no sr weakness, and no lo recoil that makes it nearly impossible to simply wear down other than burn or toxic, (which isn't nearly as hard to avoid as the other residual damage is). This normally wouldn't be a big deal (other things like magic guard clef, etc share this trait or even got it better) except nearly every time lando-i comes in, something is going to die (or at least take a shitton of damage) from something that can fire off lo boosted powerful attacks from base 115 spattk without the negative effects of being worn down (something that other wall breakers suffer from). Essentially these traits make it so that every time lando-i comes in, the momentum immediately swings to the Landorus-i user. Normally forcing you to immediately respond to him is what promotes skill (you have to outplay the lando-i user to leave no room for the lando user) but again for a plethora of playstyles not named offense (which I and others mentioned previously that it is sure as hell not deadweight against) have far more trouble bringing enough offensive pressure to keep lando-i from constantly coming in and immediately bringing momentum to the user due to what I explained before. A half decently played landorus can certainly can get a kill and quite a few switch ins in this regard and no matter the momentum your opponent had, the momentum is immediately in landorus' so favor. This is a trait I find to be especially unhealthy for this metagame, and largely contributes to why landorus gives nearly every build not named offense (HO in particular) especially a difficult time. And no one is saying it 6-0s balance, nor is that a prerequisite that constitutes a broken mon.
 
One thing that I've heard mentioned from the anti-ban side besides the usual "lando-I is like any other powerful wall breaker like manaphy or kyu-B and we have enough checks to keep it in bay"(it's too bad that the checks, besides being shaky at best, are either pursuit bait or can be worn down repeatedly by sr and cannot consistently check lando-I, who sports enough power and coverage to pressure the hell out of them) is that lando-i is more or less deadweight against offense. I just don't find this to be the case when
A.) Lando-i sports solid 89/90/80 bulk that not only allows it to soak up even neutral hits and fire off powerful hits in return and
B.) unlike manaphy or kyurem-b, landorus does have a threatening set that can take a shit on offensive teams mid/late game in rock polish.
Yes, offense doesn't struggle as much with lando-i as other archetypes, but it is far from deadweight against them, and I've seen well-played lando-i get at least a kill or two (or even more) against offensive teams due to the these traits. 101 base speed is certainly pretty damn solid enough for it to especially punish more defensive teams and balanced while also taking advantage of good typing defensively and an ability that let's it fire off powerful hits with little to no drawbacks as far as being worn down is concerned.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 370-437 (115.9 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Sheer Force Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 321-378 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Trace copies Sheer Force)
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 312-368 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 243-286 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 255-301 (79.9 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 279-328 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 291-343 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 270-320 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 303-357 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus in Sun: 420-495 (131.6 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 270-318 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 257-304 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 271-321 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 313-369 (98.1 - 115.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Here's fourteen neutral attacks from different pokemon that can OHKO Landorus after Stealth Rock from just the S/A ranks. I fail to see how it's "soaking up" neutral hits.
 
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 370-437 (115.9 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Sheer Force Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 321-378 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Trace copies Sheer Force)
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 312-368 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 243-286 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 255-301 (79.9 - 94.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 279-328 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 291-343 (91.2 - 107.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 270-320 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 303-357 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus in Sun: 420-495 (131.6 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 270-318 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 257-304 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 271-321 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 313-369 (98.1 - 115.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Here's fourteen neutral attacks from different pokemon that can OHKO Landorus after Stealth Rock from just the S/A ranks. I fail to see how it's "soaking up" neutral hits.
I mean sure okay if you're going to just cherrypick some of the most powerful attacks in OU, some of which belong to the tier's premier wallbreakers then yeah anything's going to look frail af. You were also pretty damn picky with some of them; Altaria is physical more often than not and lol banded talonflame in ORAS
The point isn't that Landorus has impossible to bypass bulk; the point is that it's not exactly Greninja where it could easily be picked off by anything. I mean heck, the fact you're showing M-Diancie's Moonblast and Banded Talonflame only have a chance to OHKO after rocks is just proving the point that Lando has some decent bulk.
 
Mean Mr Snorlax said:
Yeah, Landorus can't take very powerful neutral STAB hits. However, most of those pokemon Landorus has no business staying in on in the first place, unless it has a rock polish boost.
As for that list, how are some of those even getting those hits off? Landorus certainly won't stay in vs a Latios or Sheer Force Mega Alakazam. It'll switch out. And as for Mega Altaria, Azumarill, Mega Gardevoir, Charizard X and Y, and Volcarona, Landorus can outspeed and OHKO all of those before they get their hits off. And then, a pursuit trapper such as Tyranitar, which happens to be a great teammate to Landorus, can take care of Latis and Pinsir.
I don't see why showing that a pokemon with uninvested bulk and a negative nature being OHKO'd after rocks is a good anti-ban argument.
 
Even though I support the ban of Landorus, I want to point out that most of the calcs are pokemon that Landorus can supposedly "beat" with its coverage moves. I mean before there were arguments that Landorus could beat Tornadus, Volcarona, Talonflame, and Charizard with Rock Slide, Altaria with Sludge Wave, Lati@s with Knock Off, Serperior with Sludge Wave after a Rock Polish, etc. While I still think Landorus' power is overwhelming, it just shows how Landorus isn't switching in to a pokemon it can beat with a coverage move that it happens to coincidentally have and only taking like 20% in the process.
But that isn't the point and was never the point; it's decent bulk was only ever - and should only ever - stated as a side thing rather than one of the bigger reasons to ban it. I mean there's very few box legends even that I doubt would enjoy switching in on a Mega Charizard Y's Fire Blast.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Mean Mr Snorlax only used to calc to disprove "Lando-i sports solid 89/90/80 bulk that not only allows it to soak up even neutral hits and fire off powerful hits" claim. For all intents and purposes Kurona, that "was" the point in Magis4Life's post. The calcs merely prove that Land-I isn't "soaking up" any "neutral hits" with its "solid 89/90/80" bulk - and remember, if it runs Rock Slide, one of those defenses is now a negative nature, which only further dampers this "solid" bulk.

But yes. You are right. It should only be a side thing, as Land's bulk isn't akin to anything truly amazing, just more than what wallbreakers usually have (although Manaphy's bulk is much better).

So yes. Landorus can withstand a few neutral hits, but it can by no means switch into them, and not even always live them. The point of the calcs was to prove that Land isn't just beating a threat because it has a certain coverage move because these mons can still retaliate for some hard, neutral hitting attacks.

ALSO, while I'm making a post, can I just say: fuck all of you saying "lol thanks for the type matchup chart but we smart players will just make sure Land never takes ice / water attacks!!" because JUST BECAUSE you can PLAY AROUND its type weaknesses doesn't make Landorus ANY LESS WEAK TO THOSE TYPES. The point is that ice- and water- coverage attacks are common in OU and hit Landorus hard - just because you "aren't going to let Landorus take those attacks" doesn't mean it's ANY LESS WEAK TO THOSE MOVES ffs.

Switching Landorus out from taking an Ice Beam doesn't make Ice Beam any less supereffective against Landorus lol.

Also - I've found Landorus oddly suspectable to 50-50 pursuit traps. Like they'll switch out from CB Scizor's Bullet Punch only to eat a Pursuit that puts it into Talonflame's BB KO range late game, or Scarf Tar can 50-50 Ice Punch / Crunch / SEdge to Pursuit. Sure, Purusit doesn't KO, but any form of damage makes that "solid bulk" into solid garbage because any attack dealing 65% or more to Land can now OHKO.

Also, HOW IS SWITCHING INTO A POKEMON THAT RELIES ON EARTH POWER AS ITS MAIN STAB ATTACK hard to do? Yeah, it has other coverage moves, but anything with levitate / flying typing is now a 50-50 check ffs. (Also, if you wanna say Land has Outrage and Rock SLides, Gengar has HP Ice pls stay in to use your superb bulk to tank the Shadow Ball that isn't coming.)
 
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Knight of Cydonia

I COULD BE BANNED!
Sad to see such exaggeration from a lot of users. So much of the "logic" shown would also dictate banning stuff like keldeo, zard x, mega altaria. Lando is not broken, it has decent counters even with the infinite number of moveslots the pro ban side thinks it has (even if it doesn't will you ban hydreigon too?). Offense really doesn't mind last time i checked and even rp is no guarantee of sweeping plus you lost the moveslot you need vs defense. The common immunities and resists to all of its moves mean that actually pulling of 2hkoes is not as easy as the pro ban side think. You really can't spam earth power despite how strong it is. Quoting user prague kick "with potential coverage of Earth Power/Focus Blast/Sludge Wave/Psychic/Knock Off/Hidden Power Ice/U-Turn/Rock Slide it can 2hko almost every monster in the metagame" Be sensible - all offensive pokemon look broken if every scenario you place it in is ideal and the opponent plays like they started yesterday.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
Sad to see such exaggeration from a lot of users. So much of the "logic" shown would also dictate banning stuff like keldeo, zard x, mega altaria. Lando is not broken, it has decent counters even with the infinite number of moveslots the pro ban side thinks it has (even if it doesn't will you ban hydreigon too?). Offense really doesn't mind last time i checked and even rp is no guarantee of sweeping plus you lost the moveslot you need vs defense. The common immunities and resists to all of its moves mean that actually pulling of 2hkoes is not as easy as the pro ban side think. You really can't spam earth power despite how strong it is. Quoting user prague kick "with potential coverage of Earth Power/Focus Blast/Sludge Wave/Psychic/Knock Off/Hidden Power Ice/U-Turn/Rock Slide it can 2hko almost every monster in the metagame" Be sensible - all offensive pokemon look broken if every scenario you place it in is ideal and the opponent plays like they started yesterday.
Could you name me 2 counters not named Cresselia or Mega Latias please? Because I don't think there really are, and even still Cresselia is pretty mediocre outside of countering Landorus and Mega Latias requires you to take up a mega slot when a good amount of teams would rather use it on something else. Also Earth Power is incredibly spammable, espically with the Gravity set
 
Just got reqs so ill just give my opinion about landorus-I.
We all know about lando's raw power and coverage so im not going to say the common stuff like what it can ohko.
While this mon can be a big threat vs balanced and stall i think ppl oversell its efficiency vs offense. The most common argument ppl use to claim that this mon is great vs offense is that it has rock polish. Ok 1st of all sometimes it sounds like lando already has plus 2 speed when it comes to the battle. We cant forget that it has to rp in order to sweep and in order to do so it will most likely take damage. And im assuming it managed to set up, because vs offense and the likes of thundy, gengar, keldeo, etc I highly doubt it can. Along with this, a decent player will have rocks up on the field the time lando comes in. All of this damage makes lando susceptible to be revenged by priorioty as common as sharp beak bbird, aqua jet and lo sucker punch. Not to mention ice shard, courtesy of two great mons, 1 of them especially good atm (weavile). All offensive teams should have a way to get past through set up sweepers in general and not just lando. 2nd, lando cannot beat all of its checks at once. For instance a lando with the common set of RP, earth power, hp ice and sludge wave struggles to get past through mons like latis torn or even gengar. well it chooses to run knock off then sure latis and gengar are out of the way. but what about spdef gliscor or even other landorus? They may use it as set up fodder. And if it chooses not to run focus blast or sludge wave, then skarmory/ togekiss and celebi stop it. My point is that when u face lando u should play like u play vs any other pokemon and scout for its moves. If u see a team packing a tflame along with a defogger latios and a bunch of pkm that dont enjoy heatran im preety sure u wont set up rocks with tran in front of that latios bcuz it is likely it will pack earthquake so you will scout for it. this can be done by identifying ur oponent's team. If they have a lando and all the teams struggles vs let's say torn-T, u will have the idea that it most likely has rock slide. Also if lando is using rp then its not that of a threatning wallbreaker and if its CM then its mediocre at the best vs offense. This is something rly common in pokemon. Look at hydreigon: if it is the LO 4 attack set or a variant with taunt, it puts stall in it's knees, but if it is the scarfed variant then its a liability vs fat cores even though it can be usefull for checking stuff in offense. If we want to talk about wallbreaking/stallbreaking power, in my honest opinion, stuff like manaphy, Kyu-B or zard y are even better at it. Slow based teams will always struggle vs most stallbreakers/wallbreakers, not only lando.
I also find quite interesting the general idea that cresselia is shity. I find the abilty to have a really really solid check/counter vs keldeo, loppuny landorus, thundurus etc quite convinient. Sure its passive af, but thats stall right there. And btw if you believe that its just another psychic that is ttar food, do the calc and tell me how much crunch does to a spdef cress. Spdef cress can eat up a crunch, moonlight and then switch out knowing ttar is locked into crunch and can't use pursuit. All of this assuming it is scarf ttar, the most common one. While it is tremendously difficult for stall to beat a set of CM, Earth P, focus B and psychic, landorus might take a toxic while setting up or trying to weaken a pokemon. For stall, it is as difficult to beat a Zard y or a manaphy for example. Balanced teams have access to a plethora of options and if the lando happens to run hp ice and invalidates ur gliscor as the counter, thats matchup that cant be controlled. A balanced team can for instance run a slowbro, a tank chomp or a sczior to check mega meta. But that team most likely wont run the 3 at the same time and mega meta wont run grass knot, ice punch and hp fire all at once bcuz if it did, it's overall coverage would be bad. At the same time if a team runs mons to check every variant of a pokemon, than its so focused in that pokemon that it might loose to a preety common pkm or core of the current meta.
There will always be a combination of moves, cores or ev spreads that unlocks ur team but u can minimize that by preparing for the generic set and scouting correctly.
Landorus-I is a defining pokemon right now, definitly worth a S rank, but due to the unreliability vs offensive squads and the fact that it can't excell vs all of its checks at once, I believe landorus-I should stay in OU.
 
252+ SpA Mega Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 279-328 (87.4 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Max+ Megaltaria? That's hilarious.

Many of the special calcs use Naive/Rash, which is much less common than Timid/Modest as well. Considering basically any offensive pokemon can't take hits like that, it's pretty stupid to call out Lando on it, especially when it can take things like Psyshocks, Earthquakes, Stone Edges and Azumarill's Aqua Jet.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
Max+ Megaltaria? That's hilarious.

Many of the special calcs use Naive/Rash, which is much less common than Timid/Modest as well. Considering basically any offensive pokemon can't take hits like that, it's pretty stupid to call out Lando on it, especially when it can take things like Psyshocks, Earthquakes, Stone Edges and Azumarill's Aqua Jet.
I'm not saying I disagree on your main point here, but saying stuff like it can take Earthquakes is pretty unfair considering that it is part flying type, and is immune to Earthquake
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Max+ Megaltaria? That's hilarious.

Many of the special calcs use Naive/Rash, which is much less common than Timid/Modest as well. Considering basically any offensive pokemon can't take hits like that, it's pretty stupid to call out Lando on it, especially when it can take things like Psyshocks, Earthquakes, Stone Edges and Azumarill's Aqua Jet.
So is Rock Slide / Outrage Landorus. (Haha! Hilarious!) Why can't other Pokemon run niche sets to beat Landorus if Landorus can run niche sets or moves to beat them?

(The calc poster's main point was to debunk the "soaking up neutral hits" anyway. If Land is taking 75%+ from a neutral hit, that isn't "soaking up" so regardless the point still stands. Don't take that user's post out of context. He isn't claiming these Pokemon are counters or anything to Landorus, only that top tier Pokemon can fire off pretty powerful neutral hits that Landorus isn't exactly "soaking up".)
 
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